Out of context quote: "If you choke me, I don't really view that as a salty experience for me. Maybe because I've gotten choked out so many times in modern." 😂

@giving6

Жыл бұрын

I haven’t watched this yet but that’s definitely kinky crim

@shoot_again2753

Жыл бұрын

Classic thank you for that observation :)

@_leontheprofessional

Жыл бұрын

​@@shoot_again2753 🙃🙃😘😘😩💘😳😢💀

@DiscardatRandom

Жыл бұрын

So many times in be- modern

17:28 Seth, Tomer, and Crim's braincells synchronized at the exact same time

@sstankfish

Жыл бұрын

Wow. Watching that repetitively now lol

@bye1551

Жыл бұрын

Omg that almost feels scripted like DAMN and they DIDN'T EVEN MENTION IT??? Like that was so perfectly in sync

I think for Yuriko and Edgar specifically, you just cant get rid of them. Edgar is basically an emblem you cant interact with and Yuriko is never going to cost them more than 2. For Yuriko it also sucks to take like 10-20 damage because one of her 5 unblockable dudes got in on someone else. It's all just very hard to interact with I think.

@theSHELFables

Жыл бұрын

Getting further in on the Cyc Rift discussion: Phil is right. Card sucks for games. At best for the table its a boring "I win" spell for blue. It's blue Insurrection. Yawn. At worst for the table it's recurred every turn but doesnt win, so you play out this boring ass game where one player is pseudo timewalking everyone w/ no way to win while everyone else hopes to rip some yard hate to get the game going again. In every other situation its an annoyingly OP answer to any given permanent based situation that's never a bad play since its instant speed and asymmetrical. It being braindead 1 blue pip splashable means that any higher budget or proxy rich environment WILL see that card in every blue deck. Its not even like there's a good answer to it outside of playing blue yourself or having a bunch of money for something like a Teferi's protection. It all just feels like garbage tbh. Cyclonic Rift sucks for the format. Awful card design top to bottom.

@Awesomesausages

Жыл бұрын

In my casual group, one of our players really wanted to play Yuriko, "you can just kill her". In no time flat, we all felt we had to heavily warp our decks to play cheaper blockers and cheaper removal if the rest wanted to have a reasonable chance. Even with just two or three triggers each turn, Yuriko destroys the table so fast... And if *one* person is stumbling, *everyone* dies. Instead of warping our play patterns, we decided maybe Yuriko just wasn't fit for our group. The deck was very sweet, but her power level and tax evasion were also super oppressive. Really seems like a commander that you can't really "play fair".

@theSHELFables

Жыл бұрын

@@Awesomesausages Been my experience too. If the ability was commander taxed she'd be fine but she's a design mistake as is.

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

I do not understand why people complain about cyclonic rift specifically and not just asymmetrical board wipes in general.

@exsnypre

Жыл бұрын

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 No other asymmetrical board wipe is as prevalent and at instant speed.

I think the Covert Go Blue/Crew "Worst Possible" is a great way to have a pre-game discussion. It shows the cards your opponents should worry about. It also gives people a chance to opt out or change up their deck.

@starmanda88

Жыл бұрын

I love that show. I totally agree.

I like how when Phil asked about Lathril, the others responded almost in unison, people really like elves

I think the reason you guys are not seeing the saltiness of some of these cards are their abilities to keep track of on paper. For instance how everyone thought Atraxa wasn't salty. But people are probably salty waiting for a player to constantly update and take so long or miss updating the counters. Like you guys said everyone wants to play their deck and not being hindered to do so. So someone taking super long turns every turn slows everyone else from playing their deck.

Completely agree with Crim on planeswalkers. Did you know that every creature has a secret ability that isn't printed on it; "During Combat, tap this creature; destroy target planeswalker"?

I am absolutely with crim.. we need more anti RAMP/TUTOR cards in various colors/cmcs.

@NoNo-qt4ov

Жыл бұрын

I'd love it if they did an opposition agent cycle

I've played Drannith Magsitrate in three of my decks. i've taken them all out except in my God-Eternal Oketra hatebear deck. I think a slept on part about it, is that it not only stops commanders from being casted. But also you can't cast spells from your library, exile or graveyard so it shuts off alot of strategies on top of saying no commanders

@MCvicRPG

Жыл бұрын

isnt that the point of the card? stopping broken stuff like cascade with a floor of stopping commanders if no one is playing those strategies wich more often then not cheat out their cards on either mana or card draw.

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

it makes people play "fair" magic, isn't that what most commander players want?

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

@@delathenleso5793 but none of them actually keep you from playing your deck unless you don't play enough interaction. but I seem to be in the minority thinking commander shouldn't be a durdle race

@Jman1903

Жыл бұрын

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 if your deck could still function then you would be correct but some decks almost don't work at all when their main mechanic is shutdown.

@MCvicRPG

Жыл бұрын

@@delathenleso5793 its called proper deckbuilding. Im aware when i dont have a backup for my commander in my de k and go all in. Honestly its part of the fun for me knowing that removing Just my commander stops my entire deck. If you got me, you got me and thats fair. If i dont want that type of game i should have used a deck that has backup plans.

You don't play Prosper because you want to play RAKDOS. You play Prosper because you want to play SIMIC but edgy.^^

@peterbrown7690

Жыл бұрын

Hahahahaha amazing And yes I like to play prosper. It’s my favourite deck lol

-I think that Atraxa's issue is that she feels really safe, a flying deathtoucher is an amazing blocker to sit behind while developing your board, and vigilance let's you swing without care. She's like the first Chulane, not nearly as broken but she doesn't ask anything of your deck, plus an additional color -The hate for Triumph really comes from the "white's bad, green's too good" era, it's the best sorcery overrun and while I agree that Craterhoof is better, having your "I win" card at half the mana when everyone is shouting that green is OP shifted the perception a little

@shayneweyker

Жыл бұрын

For Atraxa it's a combo of people who hate poison and people who hate super-friends decks with a zillion wraths. Also super-friends plays slow. If she was never played with poison or creature denial people would be Ok with her.

@VexylObby

Жыл бұрын

And it kills really easily. So it's definitely more than just an era.

@RyanEglitis

Жыл бұрын

Triumph also enables some silly wins where you would have taken 8-9 in the air to a few flyers, but now you're just dead to them. It's a lot less feel bad if they're ahead enough to just wipe the table with it.

@tarultoyarto

Жыл бұрын

@@shayneweyker Yeah, that's it for me. People sitting behind their 4/4 (or better) deathtouch flier, managing a dozen planeswalkers. And then if they've got Inexorable Tide out, they're fiddling with loyalty dice every time they cast a spell.

@Lucarioguild7

Жыл бұрын

Important to note that the salt score is from 0-4 and it has a 1.6 so that's like an eye roll level of salt imo

One thing of note about gnawbone is that while at a 4 person table its strong, in historic brawl it immediately swings a game. And even tho its not actually commander, a lot of people see historic brawl as commander.

@Tvboy777

Жыл бұрын

"A lot of people see Historic Brawl as Commander." Wow, a lot of people are wrong.

@porkthepink

Жыл бұрын

"Alot of people see historic brawl as command." those are what we call idiots

I HATE extra turn spells, but I play a specific one in all my blue decks: Plea for Power. 4 mana to have the table vote on whether I get to draw 3 or take an extra turn.

Aura Shards makes a great answer to Humility. It doesn't matter that my creatures don't have abilities. It just matters that I played one. Of course I expect Aura Shards is on the list too so take that as you will.^^

The one thing that i got out of the salty list is that not enough people have played against mindslaver.

@RyanEglitis

Жыл бұрын

1 mindslaver is fine...but it's never 1 mindslaver

i like the ways you try to find out the reasons why something is salty. you all got good points. I myself have 4 cards of the top 100 salt cards that i use. I also have 7 more cards in the salt list that i played in my decks and went out. this is not cause of the salt list, its more cause i myself didnt enjoy playing them. im also very lucky with my group, they have all less cards from the salt list then me. In my groups we have ofc different cards that will cause salt like: - cedh cards - silverbullets - tutor - steal turns - hardlocks - fast mana but the trick is to talk. - some cedh cards do not much outside of cedh so its fine - we took most gravehates out, as long our grave decks dont go overboard. - we set ourselfs some districtions with tutors - we dont steal turns anymore, maybe we end them... but no stealing turns! - we give players fair chances to break the locks and if they happen the game ends fast - we use fast mana for silly things (like cast gonti a huge amount of times) small info why teferi is salty: next to you cant interact on my turn with me, you also have some hardlocks with cards like Knowledge Pool. the bounce + draw is just a small value on top. even without that lock you normaly play tefery in an planeswalker deck and they are salty cause of how timeconsuming they are.

It's weird to me how many people hate on Edgar Markov, but have nothing to say about Najeela, which is both way more aggro, and brings in 5c goodstuff piles as well as easy infinite combos.

Concerning the Dockside vs Cyclonic Rift discussion, I think what Phil was trying to get at is most stuff on the salt list is there for one of two base reasons: "it's too broken" or "it feels bad" but they all share the same scale. So maybe adding that factor will make the scale make more sense.

Just in time! I just ran out of podcasts and was about to switch to listening to commander clash while I work

Now I want a saltiest tribal commander clash episode!!

I don’t understand getting salty from any card. When I hear that people don’t like not being able to execute their plan, I hear, “I don’t like when other people try to win.”

Weird that Crim has complained about fast mana before but had no issues with the commander lotus or gaea's cradle.

@MxSpikeSpiegelxM

Жыл бұрын

He changes his mind as much as he changes his hair color.

@BobardeZanzibar

Жыл бұрын

Are they really worse than, say, sol ring, mana crypt, and the like?

@blueredlover1060

Жыл бұрын

@@BobardeZanzibar Cradle I'm iffy about. However I completely agree with Jeweled Lotus. There are some commanders that can be played off of just a Jeweled Lotus + Basic that basically win the game on the spot turn 1 before anyone else gets a chance to play. For example, you win almost instantly with Jhoria, Weatherlight Captain when she gets played. I play out all my eggs to draw through my deck, find Dramatic Reversal, and burn the table out of the game immediately. If I had to guess about Cradle, it's just a win more card with certain cards and commanders.

@DrFrogman

Жыл бұрын

I think the lotus is a mistake, but it can only be used on the commander, so its way less abusable than the sol ring or crypt doing it every turn after wards and most of the time, the value of the fast mana that stays is way higher

@Spaced92

Жыл бұрын

@@DrFrogman The power level or condition of the card doesn't affect how fun it is, sometimes if you have it in your hand the game is just over.

Funny story about divine intervention. I actually have a phelddagrif deck that gets it out pretty consistently. It takes a lot of setup, but the combo works like this. Give everyone tons of mana and cards. Stockpile counterspells to make sure your thing goes through. (You can usually make a deal with the person in last) Find an opening to cast hivemind, then cast enduring ideal. Now players are locked into just getting enchantments for the rest of the game. Immediately get Divine intervention. It will usually result in an o-ring battle. Instead of engaging in o-ring nonsense, find pillow fort cards. (War tax is excellent when you aren't spending your mana on anything else) Once no one can hit you and everyone's running out of enchantments, o-ring their o-ring and get the Divine intervention back. Profit. I actually did this in a local game with a small prize pool. Everyone was confused, especially the judge.

Fun episode also Tomer, it was Seth who pulled off the Divine Intervention "win".

It's always interesting to see your takes on these topics, I never know who I am going to agree with 😅 I feel like the discussions you guys have are not fully formed at the start. It seems like someone needs to specify that salt isn't always strictly about power or resource denial, but can also be about things considered prohibitively priced, unfavored IP (like tWD secret lairs), or choas cards. I mean Joey goes over this in his video, but it seems half the podcast doesn't know that? Another thing this episode would have benefited from would be, at the beginning, have everyone just describe what they think salty means or examples of cards they think are salty. For example, I get that he loves his Grixis slice of the pie, but when Crim says that so few cards on this list are salty to him, I really want to know more about what IS salty to him so I can base his comments on that for the rest of the ep. ---- Edit: for cards like Cyclonic Rift or other "game ending" cards that don't actually end the game the salt usually comes when people "use them wrong" aka as a catchup up rather than a tool for winning. When Crim says "you came to play magic, what's wrong with extending the game?" The issue is that the gap in boards and several will probably discard many cards.. . thats not the way people want to play "more" magic. Like Phil said, it's just resetting what those people did while they get to watch the rift caster do whatever they want.

@altromonte15

Жыл бұрын

yeah, scrambleverse-type cards aren't super strong, but I will probably throw a shoe at you if you play a deck centered around them because I don't want my game to be 5 hours long. Same for stuff like Humility

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Their perspectives and biases also form their interpretation of the topic at hand. A staunch control player knows that people don't like control, but because they like playing control they're probably more likely to misunderstand or misrepresent WHY people don't like playing against control. Players who run a lot of board wipes are unlikely to identify exactly why people hate them. Myself... Cyclonic Rift is way less salty than any normal board wipe, BECAUSE it's a finisher in a competently built deck. Board wipes fundamentally are not finishers, nor are they even helpful. They're a catch-up mechanic that resets the game state back to the beginning of the game. But the problem then is, that just rewards the players who chose to spend their time NOT building a board state, NOT contribute to the fun at the table. The one who wasn't playing at all is now the favorite to win, solely by not playing the game before the wipe. Not only is it not fun to lose all your progress, it actively rewards the people who lost less in the process. It creates a feeling of futility, like it was a mistake to even try to play Magic The Gathering. And perhaps most frustratingly, board wipes have no impact on win rates whatsoever for the people who play them. They fundamentally do not help. And intuitively we all understand this. If everyone else did a better job building a board before, that means their deck itself is likely inherently better at building boards than yours, so the board wipe only slows down your loss. It's a bunch of frustration and annoyance that quite literally nobody benefited from. And that's generally why people can't stand them.

I play Thassa's Oracle in Wizard Tribal. Because it's a wizard. Odds of me winning a game with it are pretty low.

@BobardeZanzibar

Жыл бұрын

But think of how hilarious it would be if you did win.

@alkhemia23

Жыл бұрын

You are one of the few good people, it mostly just a dumb card that I not cry if got banned personally

@chadcharest9891

Жыл бұрын

@@BobardeZanzibar I mean, I have like 30+ Wizards and Azami in the deck. It could happen.

I believe Jeweled Lotus is on because it is just about a must play card in one or two color decks that can allow turn one commanders and is overall a card people don't want to exist

Day k of n of asking for MLD week on Commander Clash I'd just love to see everyone play MLD while also trying to play around it with Crucible of Worlds and indestructible lands.

@Ixidora

Жыл бұрын

I really hope they do this at some point, I think it'd be one of the funniest games to date! I'm thinking about building a deck with ALL the MLD but since those spells are only in WRB I'm on the fence between making it 3C or if 5C is worth it for the extra 7 Indestructible lands (for those unaware, there are 10 dual color Ind. Lands that enter tapped and the 2 others that don't being Cascading Cataracts and Darksteel Citadel). My group has no problem with MLD (funnily enough regardless of who casts it) because I end the game in 3 turns max and don't durdle around. If I cast it I'm going for the win, if someone else casts it I laugh with my paranoia for sandbagging lands like Nykthos and Gaea's Cradle until I'm ready to go for the win.

@Graatand

Жыл бұрын

@@Ixidora Someone (Crim?) should just bring a mono-U deck with Yamimaya+Acid Rain and a ton of counters for everyone else’s MLD spells.

@Ixidora

Жыл бұрын

@@Graatand also run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Kormus Bell with some mass creature bounce too lolz

31:00 Triumph of the hordes is leagues better than an overwhelming stampede. You don't need a tall creature, and often 3 mana dorks can kill 1 player, you don't have to kill everybody.

Tomer: Oko isn't salty Also Tomer: Oko can completely shut down a commander, so that they have to kill it. It's so good.

@zarath7

Жыл бұрын

And should have really said completely shut down a commander, and then another one, and then another one, because it's a freaking plus ability when it should be like -2 or -3.

@beanthebuilder

Жыл бұрын

​@@zarath7"And there are so many decks built around the commander. Oko stops them from being able to play the game until they remove their own commander, AND recast it and deal with Oko. And he's only 3 mana, and can do it every TURN, and that's only one of his many abilities." Personally, I love stacks cards in commander, but only power levels about 5. If you play them in low power games, then you are a bad friend, because stacks isn't very enjoyable. But if you slam a Back to Basics or Oko in a game full of tuned decks, I don't think it's a big problem. Humility or Gift are a league of their own, like Choke or Boil, cause they hate on specific decks, but at high power they usually read "target opponent concedes"

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

@@beanthebuilder Even if your deck is built around your commander, you built your deck poorly if the deck ONLY works with your commander in play. Myself, I hate cards that say "no", but I'm totally fine with cards that say "yes, but". I will play Archon of Absolution so that you pay 1 to attack me, but I won't play Blazing Archon to make it so you just can't attack me at all. Tax decks can be pretty fun, especially when the table slowly realizes that yes, actually, we should be paying our taxes because it benefits us, instead of just going after each other while leaving me alone to avoid getting taxed.

@beanthebuilder

Жыл бұрын

@dontmisunderstand6041 I agree. The only downside is that 3 tax cards happen to be just broken. Smothering tithe, rhystic, and that 5 cmc enchantment super ghostly prison. In concept they are cool, in reality they are undercooked and ruin so many games

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

@@beanthebuilder Smothering Tithe I wouldn't consider a tax because there's no way to play around it. It's just a thing that definitely always happens, because there's no choice whatsoever in avoiding it. Rhystic Study at least there's some choice involved, though in practice it's more than a bit overtuned.

Re: Divine Intervention, I'll never forget one commander game I played during a Christmas event at a small shop. One of the opponents played Rule of Law, The Abyss, followed it up with humility, and finished with Divine Intervention for the tie. I wasn't even mad, he was a super chill guy.

I agree with Crim about cyclonic rift. To me if it's used as a wincon, it's no different than seeing craterhoof multiple times.

Teferi, Time Raveler, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, City of Solitude, and Defense Grid make me the most salty out of any cards in commander. Usually what I see happen is Player A plays one of those cards, several turns later Player B wins the game because I am unable to stop them and Player A barely has any interaction in their deck.

I hate that commander has such a big community and we legacy players have none. People can discuss Cyclonic Rift for days (and they do it) but if I ever had 7 (!!!) mana I would have won the game like 5 times already. I'd love if there was just one channel or at least one format where people discuss legacy cards.

I have a suspicion that a lot of the hate around Infect cards like Triumph of the Hordes is from lifegain players (2nd most common non-Tribal theme on EDHREC) who feel like Infect instantly nullifies their lifegain strategy.

@RyanEglitis

Жыл бұрын

That or unblockable/evasion players. But really the problem is with all the unblockable cards, not infect.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Infect is just aggro but twice as fast.... and that's in standard. In Commander it's 4x faster, which is so fast that even the addition of multiplayer makes it strictly superior to other forms of aggro.

Played my first ever paper game in magic today! Three of us had pre con decks and this one guy had 5C Jodah with every good black tutor, omniscience, rhystic study, smothering tithe and all the Eldrazi. Safe to say he destroyed us even after we played 5 board wipes

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

the new legendary cascade Jodah or the old jodah? witness protection, kenriths transformation, reprobation, I recommend sticking a few of these effects in if possible. and if you witness the main threat for the board theres a decent chance people will help you protect it.

@starmanda88

Жыл бұрын

That person is a massive pubstomping douche bag. I’m sorry that happened to you.

@ethanmitchelson

Жыл бұрын

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 it was the old Jodah, his whole deck was filled with ways to just make ridiculous amounts of mana or play things for free. I should add a few effects like that for sure

@ethanmitchelson

Жыл бұрын

@@starmanda88 It was so incredibly obnoxious. Spent most of the game trying to deal with things like Omniscience, Miraris wake, bootleggers stash etc as well as every single busted creature he could just play basically for free. The game lasted two entire hours, we played 5 board wipes and several removal spells against him and he still just wiped us all out

Crim is right, we need more tutor hate that doesn't just slap wrists- it hits them with bricks.

The thing with the Commanders on the list is that they really just require a Rule 0 conversation. Like Crim said, if you just sit down, pull out Atraxa, and start playing, you are going to draw a lot of hate. It won't matter that it is a "Energy" deck or some other "low power" theme. You will get hated out before you can make that clear.

@dangottsacker2061

Жыл бұрын

If you hate on the Atraxa player for no reason, you should probably quit magic.

@73nickson

Жыл бұрын

The salt scale and broader power levels are mainly for pick up games with randos, and I am not going to trust a random commander player who is choosing to play with Atraxa about what there power level is. If you choose to play the most popular, boring, commander that is also generically powerful, targeting you is the correct choice in 90% of games. If you don’t like that, don’t play Atraxa in pickup games

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I think that most people in this comment section and even in the video itself are massively overestimating how many people are even aware of the metagame outside their playgroup.

I am 100% sure Devastation made the list because people saw it for the first time DURING THE POLL and just thought, "Oh, fuck THAT."

Teferi's likely salty because it combos with Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm, along with all the counterspell/interaction getting shut off.

I think one thing you missed is ease: if you play ur-dragon, it's strong, but dragons are cool and expensive. If you win by playing dragons and attacking, it feels like you earned it. If you win because your yuriko always costs 2 or your korvold rewards you for having treasures or chulane that requires you to play literally any creature, it feels cheap and too easy. Why do I have to do stuff, to gain value, but your commander can draw, ramp and make you a coffee every time you sneeze

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

urdragon litterlally does all of that as well.

It's called control and is a valid play style. With that said, have win conditions. Don't make them linger.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I don't know if I'd call it valid, but it certainly is a playstyle. It's just more trolling and less trying to win. A "control" deck with win conditions is probably just a midrange deck.

Also, people hate being hit by repeated and mass discard because it destroys their ability to make and execute a multi-turn plan and to wait to play spells at just the right moment. It also increases dependence on luck of the draw and makes games longer.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

At a fundamental level... normal removal and counterspells are 1 for 1s. You are breaking even. Normal discard spells are 1 for 2s. Not only are they shutting you down so you don't get to play, they do it in a way that is more efficient in both card advantage AND mana advantage. You can build around counterspells by simply making every card a threat they need to remove, thus putting you effectively ahead because of it. You can't do that against discard decks without just playing cardsthat makes their deck unplayable. It doesn't feel like you won when you do that, it makes you feel like they lost, which is a key difference. So you're in a situation where it's NEVER fun to play against, no matter who wins and no matter how the game goes.

As far as the discussion about triumph of the hordes goes, I think it’s important to remember that you can have a (2/2) and 2 (1/1)s out or some similar small force and kill someone with infinite life. Idk about everyone else’s meta but as a fairly new/seasoned casual player, those types of out of nowhere 1 turn kills that nullify whatever you did for the whole game would make me salty. BE THAT AS IT MAY that’s just explaining why I think the score is high, and I think triumph of the hordes is something that belongs in magic and in commander. (maybe not named battle royale, but here we are) Love you guys! Listen to every podcast I can I always appreciate your critical thinking

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

That's a good way of looking at it. "Does it create an unearned win that invalidates the rest of the game entirely?" If yes, people are right to be salty about that. Same as cards that just prevent the game from being played in general.

The issue with infect is it’s an angry dog play style. You rarely spread it around, you target one player and don’t let up. And doing 10 damage to a player isn’t hard. Sure that often won’t win you the game, but that loss is of little consolation to the person that got knocked out on T3.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Even in standard, infect is just aggro but twice as fast. That's the inherent problem with it. Poison counters ARE the problem with infect.

23:22 Crim's opinion here is basically my own opinion on these salty cards so the only thing that makes me salty is when other people in the game don't recognise the threat and won't listen to reason leading to the player with the problem card winning

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I have no problems with the player with the problem card winning. I do have problems with the problem carding reading "other players might not get to play the game".

Tefari, Time Raveler was such a pain in historic that I don't even really play stuff at instant speed anymore unless it's removal XD My Shorikai deck came with Shimmer Myr and a legendary that let's you play artifacts as though they have flash, and I just took them out. I think that card warped my playstyle for life lol...

I know I’m way late responding to this, but y’all missed the reasons why Atraxa is on this list. First, she’s been around forever: once upon a time, she was a real beast that appeared at the helm of a precon … she’s not so scary anymore, but in the past she was top tier and prevalent. Second, she was basically the default Superfriends commander, and Superfriends is kind of a miserable archetype to lose against. Your opponent, when they win, are taking like 6 actions per turn before they even tap their mana. It can feel pretty doomed. Oh and she also helms infect decks, another archetype people don’t love.

1:22:47 earned my like. "Hello, stranger. What are ya sellin'?!"

The issue I personally have with Triumph of the Hoards is that generally, not only does it demand the absolute least work of any overrun-style effect to straight up kill a single player outright, it renders life totals (and thus many prior game actions) wholly irrelevant. There are other cards/situations that do one or the other, but Triumph does both while demanding a relatively minimal board state. If you got craterhoofed by an OP with like 10 creatures, it feels like that was an earned win. Triumph of the Hoards doesn't care about your life total, demands far less board state to take out specific players, and costs half as much mana, so yeah, I'm not going to feel great if I lose to a handful of 2/2s from 40 off of it or something.

As it stands and I haven't looked entirely at the salt score yet but just based on this video there are 12 main categories that people get salty over. •Locking out: lands, card draw (Narset), tutors (opposition agent), ramp (Karn/Vorenclix) •Stacks •Mass land destruction •Resource imbalance (dockside extortionist) •Lock pieces that prevent you from playing your deck (Dranith Magistrate) •Free spells (free counter spells) •Extra turns •Counter spells •Chaos •Uninteractable win conditions •Overpowered or overpopulated commanders •Overpowered or overpopulated Staples

If proxying becomes more popular and accepted due to everything with M30, I wonder if a lot of these expensive salty cards dip a bit. A few of my friends play high level (non-cEDH) often using Cockatrice, and having access to every card virtually regardless of price definitely shifts the perspective a bit.

Yeah... playing at the store last Friday... got winter orbed for three turns then into a Armageddon, with that on the stack a teferis protection was cast... I wasn't salty but the game was bunk for sure haha

What is pushed is greens ability to ramp like crazy without any downsides and often even getting further rewarded for it - not the opposition agent.

@starmanda88

Жыл бұрын

This 💯

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

There should be more cards that actively punish tutor effects. But, key here... that shouldn't be asymmetrical. When a card says don't do this, it shouldn't also say "but it's ok when I do it". We need more hate, but less hypocrisy. Don't take that out of context.

@SP-ik6cc

Жыл бұрын

@@dontmisunderstand6041 I see what you’re saying. On the other hand in order for such a „hate“ card to be played you need to get some value out of it. Or else you are not gonna spend the resources and card slot. It simply wouldnt be played if it only hated without generating some value for your resources spent.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

@@SP-ik6cc People spend card slots and mana on other do-nothing stax effects. And a tutor hate effect would just be more effective at what it does than those, by making itself harder to remove via the anti-tutor effect.

Divine Intervention is very much a “technically I didn’t win but by god do I feel like I won”

@Tvboy777

Жыл бұрын

Divine Intervention definitely is a win. Not technically, but everyone else didn't win because of your card, not much different from winning.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Divine Intervention is very much a win because everyone is going to laugh, at multiple points. First, when you cast it, and later when it somehow resolves despite everyone trying to not let it.

As someone who plays both Yuriko and Edgar, if these cards are such a problem then Wizards needs to print commanders that will allow you to play their strategies without running these commanders. There is no other alternative Mardu commander that cares about vampires. If the artifact side of Edgar, Charmed Groom was red, he would have been an amazing alternative commander for lower power-level tables but for some reason they didn't do that. Satoru Umezawa is an awesome commander but he doesn't incentivize running any ninjas and in some ways punishes you for doing so. Sorry if I'm making you upset with my commanders but I've been playing these tribes since Zendikar and I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

@BertockLeg

Жыл бұрын

I think the problem with those two on the salt scale is that they don't really care about the tribe in the same way something like the ur-dragon does. The best way to play Yuriko is with unblockable creatures and 20 cmc cards. It is not really ninja tribal. Similar but different for Edgar. Because of his eminence ability you don't need to play interesting vampires, as most time it is better to play a 1 mana vampire with no abilities. I agree that some other tribal commander for those tribes should be printed, but I think that their high score is unrelated to the tribal side, and is just because those cards are just too good.

@warninja288

Жыл бұрын

@@BertockLeg Yeah I can agree with that, I really wish Yuriko had "other Ninjas you control" because I think that would have made her way less annoying to play against.

One of the other issues with Atraxa: she's the *only* Witch-Maw commander that doesn't require partner. If WotC printed more redless commanders with other mechanics, I think you'd see less Atraxa decks.

The pay-to-win element is definitely a big contributor to salt scores.

"Cyclonic Rift is so boring..." The same can literally be said about every single boardwipe, overrun effect, and big splashy win now spell. There is no more reason to hate on Cyclonic Rift than any other tremendous spell that swings the favor dramatically in the favor of the person who cast it. Yeah, it sucks when you are on the end of that spell. But, 7 mana is a huge cost to pay, and it could even be countered. Holding up 7 blue to cast it as an instant on the end step before your turn is also really risky, because it could be countered and you would miss a whole turn. How is Farewell & Vanquish the Horde not worse than Cyclonic Rift? At least you get the shit back in your hands with Cyclonic Rift. Sure, it is annoying when you get your board bounced, but it is completely fair.

About the random free counterspell in a deck (1:05:00): I would like to know it beforehand, IF we play a low-to-mid powered casual game. Specific cards represent a specific powerlevel, I would say. If we are slamming some timmy-cards on the table and suddenly someone interrupts me with no mana open, but a Force of Will in hand, I would feel bad.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

If I play Circle of Protection: Red and you respond with a 0 mana counterspell, I'm not playing the game with you anymore. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

@Graatand

11 ай бұрын

@@dontmisunderstand6041 If I could bait out a counterspell with a CoP:Red and thus clear the way for an actual impactful spell, I’d feel pretty good.

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

@@Graatand Exactly why I'm not playing with them. That's not a play, that's spite. They're just doing it to be an asshole.

The scale is a sign that the edh community often has set in stone views that are never challenged by new thoughts, e.g. high salt for 3feri, Oko and rift. The problem with magistrate is that you can't even attempt to cast your commander. Other answers are normally a 1 for 1. Same is true for hushbringer and opp agent. You want to stop certain powerful spells, but you sometimes preamtively deny many cards.

Made someone really salty with Teferi TR. Not because I was using it to counter all their spells, but because they had a commanding board advantage and I managed to stabilize by playing Teferi 3 times in a row, bouncing their creatures, then getting in for damage and eventually winning by turning Teferi into a dinosaur and swinging for lethal.

Cyclonic Rift is salty because you can keep up interaction, wipe the board if need be, and start your turn with all of your mana up because it’s an instant. (Imo)

Triumph is more salty because it only costs 4. In a format when early turns are usually playing "land go" or "land mana rock go", dropping some small creatures early then using Triumph to immediately delete a player from the game is a very salty experience. The other Overrun effects usually won't come down in time for an insta-kill simply by being one turn later.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Overrun also doesn't let you get an early kill at all in commander. No matter how you slice it, you're not dealing 40 damage with Overrun by casting it on curve. You can easily give someone 10 poison counters with Triumph while playing purely on curve. It being one turn later isn't the issue. Even if Overrun was 3 mana it STILL wouldn't let people get early kills before the other players are ready.

I think the Idea behind the Salt scores is that those are cards you should specifically bring up when you are talking about your deck before the game to establish powerlevel/game experience. I don't think it means don't play them at all, but don't spring them on someone out of nowhere.

@themantheycallmike

Жыл бұрын

Also: Don't agree with Crim on the full Opposition Agent thing, but he makes an excellent point. Green is too powerful because people are too against Land Destruction, so there SHOULD be answers to Green ramp. Something like a fixed Confounding Conundrum or the like.

Phil hit the nail on the head with Cyclonic rift. It just requires no thought, it's too easy. At 7 mama you just bounce everything at end of turn and get a massive tempo swing that usually results in a win. There's no real decision to make there.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

River's Rebuke is just a weaker Cyclonic Rift, and I've found playing it that by the time I have the 6 mana to cast it free AND no longer need to advance my own board state, casting it means the opponent spends the next 3 turns resetting their board, and it almost always ends on a weaker board than the one I bounced. It's mind-boggling to me that people don't see that the FLOOR of cyclonic rift is 3 time walks stapled together.

@saidinstouch2186

11 ай бұрын

I agree. I've always felt that it should have more blue pips so it's harder to throw in every deck.

Alot of these cards slow the game down which is slow enough with four players. If you cast humility just to slow the table down waiting to draw second sunrise it can be pretty salty.

You know you can choose Money with Expropriate to gain control of a permanent you own but no longer control. So if Crim steals your Helm of Kaldra with Gonti and plays it, you can get it back!

I'm with Crim on using Thassa's Oracle only as a value creature.

I personally only get the chance to play a few times a month, like a poker night. With that in mind: I want to be able to play, I don't have to win, and I really enjoy watching a deck "do it's thing", even if the deck isn't mine. My salty side comes out when you're stopping the other players in the game from playing, or are completely pub-stomping. It's one thing to remove an important piece to a combo, counter a win-con, or wipe the board, even if those are asymmetrical and it leads to win shortly thereafter. Stasis and lockout control is just forcing me to sit there and watch you play. I started playing this game with my best friend who was the Spike player that didn't want to let others do anything. It made for boring games, and when we went to commander it was even worse. The only time I want to sit around and watch everyone else play is when I've been brought down from my archenemy role, or my deck isn't playing well in that game, as those games happen. I'm cool with you winning, there has to be a winner. I just don't jive with being forced to watch you play because you said so, essentially, and that if I don't want to play anymore then you'll walk away feeling accomplished. Especially when, in my experience, the players that build to stop others from playing cry out the loudest and longest when they are eliminated from the game for stopping everyone else from progressing.

With strangers I think salty cards should be viewed at there ceiling when determining the power level of the deck even if the ceiling isn't always reached

Rules Comity: Coalition Victory is too strong. Rules Comity: Thorical is fine, carry on.................

@zackkelley2940

Жыл бұрын

Should be the other way around. > Thoracle is only UU (Can go in ANY color combination with U and only 2cmc) and can only be stopped via counterspell and stifle. Coalition Victory is 3WUBRG (Limited to 5 color AND 8 cmc), is SORCERY speed, and can be stopped by removing a key CREATURE or two which ANY color can do.

Question to think about - what cards or win conditions to you least mind losing to?

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I least mind losing to card effects that say "win the game". After that, "lose the game" effects like Door to Nothingness. Those are the two that I'm never really salty about. Non-infinite value combos are fine. No issues. I don't like some components of them, but whatever. Basic combat damage, I mind unless I haven't gotten to play the game yet... aggro beating me before I cast 3 spells is not cool, nor is losing to a control deck that cast a removal spell on 17 consecutive attempts for me to play a card. Many pieced infinite combos are fun to see but not as fun to play against multiple times in a row. If I die to a 6 card combo, you deserve to win. Mill is not fun, because the only viable mill decks are combos, not true mill. They're not routinely milling me until I eventually lose. We're not racing against a clock. No, they have one card that doubles how much they mill and a second that says mill half the deck. Pure 100% combo. Any deck can put those two cards in and be equally good at milling their opponent. I don't mind playing NORMAL mill decks. Mill combos makes me salty. Likewise, I put an exception to my first point... win the game effects that are just self mill I count as mill and not a win the game effect. They go down here, with ALL 2-3 card combos that automatically win the game. After that, poison counters are just aggro cranked up to 11. I lost to a standard legal deck on turn 3 to poison counters one time. Fuck that. I came to play magic. That isn't even worth the time spent shuffling. That's something I care very much about, people respecting each others' time. Shuffling is something we just have to do to get to play the game. The shorter the match, the more time we spend shuffling and not playing. Poison counters are the epitome of wasting my god damn time. But, that's not even the bottom of the list. The thing I hate most is specifically when one player concedes in order to play kingmaker in a multiplayer game. In example, I cast act of treason on Player B's big threat because I know player B's board can't beat mine, and that creature kills Player C this turn... so Player B concedes to prevent me from taking their creature, meaning player C lives and then I lose. I don't mind when the kingmaker decides who wins by playing cards. Don't do it with outside methods.

I think reason hate rift is the instant speed on the end step before my term is such a tempo advantage for that player

@saidinstouch2186

11 ай бұрын

I agree. I also hate the fact that it's one blue pip. It goes in every deck that runs blue.

Crim is a living meme.

So... I run Thassa's oracle in my mono blue Teferi wizard deck because it is a wizard win con. But I arguably try and build a devotion of like 20-30, and draw a lot, sea gate restoration etc. I don't see a problem with it with no combo, it's not like I have leveler in the deck or something. I just draw a lot, and like, have a lot of 2-3 pip permanents, so it's a good win con I think if actually honestly planning to get down to where the devotion would work. If I didn't have it would just have to hope to wizard class my commander to beat in face, or control the board till I could win with just like triskadecaphile. I think people would rather have someone have the ability to end the game in a control deck at least. Especially one without any combos.

On the Rule 0 question, always consider talking to people you play with. Commander is a multiplayer format. And if you really care about the enjoyment of the table, you will check with them to see if you all can maximize the fun.

The blind hate to certain commanders may be the direct link to what makes them do powerful. My chulane deck was pretty timid to start as was my animar. Blind hate and aggro on them didnt make me stop running them. It made me turne them to very high power to deal with the hate.

Urza is a center point for my Muldrotha Artifacts deck that pumps out tons of mana

The proper way to play around counterspells is in deck construction. Just don't play so few threats that you lose to a series of 1 for 1 trades.

I have found Rhystic Stufy to be bad in Galea however Sylvan library has been the replacement for it.

i feel like there should be explanations of why the salty cards "deserve" their score so that folks can understand why it's that way as its not obvious to everyone. also there should be a salty playstyle chart as well as i have played games where a person has run a "oops all counters" style deck where they play lock down pieces and counter anything else so that you lose to mill. when i voice my opinion to them on why i refuse to play against such decks i get spoken to as if i am being "unfair" or "close minded" cause the person is being denied to play a game that i am in e.g. they now no longer have a 4 person pod for commander as i refuse to play against that deck

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

The irony of the person playing the "you do not get to play the game" deck complaining about not getting to play the game...

Opposition agent I love it because it can shut down people with fetch lands when I got my mono color deck lol

Negan is my favorite commander, glad my playgroup doesn't mind.

I think most people don't know what is consider " salt" anymore, like my friend thinks my miirym deck is consider "salty" because it's a kill in sight commander, but he pulls a notion theft on me and stole like 5 card draw. Like the category of salt I really hate are cards that really prevents you from playing you the game that's like lock you down like static orb or back to basic, stealing your commander, reject card draw etc.

Craterhoof is 1.7 salt score but its actually over 9000 when you use the secret lair art :P

I generally don’t mind any of the salty cards other than every Teferi ever made. His story is cool and I like the flavor but the gameplay just makes me sad 😂

I’m also just happy Tomar isn’t sick today 😅

If people don’t like the salty permanents like cradle of humility of dockside….play more removal! I only get salty from complete stasis like locks and instant/sorcery total land destruction etc.

Part of the reason I think Blightsteel doesnt see more play is that 1. It's 12 mana. So unless you're cheating it out, which is a generally niche strat, since he shuffles in instead of hitting your bin, he costing a LOT 2. It is a 54$ dollar card. He costing A LOT 😂

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I prefer Darksteel Colossus specifically because he DOESNT have infect. I hate infect with a passion, and so do all people who actually like playing magic. Darksteel Colossus hits and people are like oh no this entirely fair card is a threat wins the game in 12 turns if we don't do something before then. Blightsteel Colossus is like... welp, someone's dead every round now, good game lets go grab snacks and meet back in 10 minutes.

Thassa's Oracle is so salt inducing is because there is essentially no way to interact with it. Only way to stop Thoracle is if you're ALSO playing U and can counter it (And the several counters the Thoracle player will likely to chuck at you to counter your counters) or can stifle the effect (Which ALSO requires U and how many U players even pack STIFLE effects?). If Thassa's Oracle hits the field and you can't stifle it, it's game. At least with Laboratory Maniac destroying it will prevent it from going off (As it's a static effect on the card and not a triggered ability that goes on the stack) and literally every color can manage that.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Blue also has that 5 mana legend that says "spells can't be countered"

@zackkelley2940

Жыл бұрын

@@dontmisunderstand6041 Lier, Disciple of the Drowned.

Seeing that Razia's Purification isn't on the list and never was, so there is nothing wrong when I play it. 🤗

Divine Intervention is hilarious and anyone who gets salty about it deserves to get dunked on by it.

I have always been so happy to take out these cards from my decks to reduce feel bads, just to sell them at a high price to a troll that wishes to use them against stangers.

Some of these are only on the list because they are half of a combo/lock. Teferi can so easily turn into 'opponents can't cast spells anymore.' Agent of Treachery becomes "blink-blink-blink-blink now I have all the things" The card, individually, might not be that bad, but the combo is salt

I don’t actually have Rhystic Study in my Bant Enchantress (Bantress) deck, because it already draws an absurd amount of cards. My enchantments need to actively do things.

Triumph of the Hordes is salty to me because it usually in practice kills one person. I would actually usually rather the whole table dies than one person dieing seemingly out of nowhere.

21:00 Seth’s way would work great here!

I guarantee that many people voted lower in the salt score if they know they won't see the card often. The (Is this card played much?/Does this card not allow me to play magic?) ratio is very real.

I wrote a 16 point manifesto about why green shouldn't have treasures. I'm salty because green doeson't need the best method of ramp.