@ 12:45 on video the rattle at the start up is your main problem. I have same issue. Same noises. Same code(s). Same diagnosis. It's the timing chain tensioner inside the timing housing. Which can resemble stretched chain and or stretch the timing chain. It can also cause more damage which could cost a new motor. The loss of acceleration, o2 sensors not functioning properly, catalytic converter not working properly on readings, fuel evap not functioning either. Smell of gasoline all the time but no leaks. But the rattling noise happening at any time of start up and then thinning out is tensioner. This happens due to previous or current neglect to oil changes. Metal shavings from wear get caught up in the timing chain when it goes through the oil lubricant thus depositing the particles in the other moving parts aka chain tensioner, pulleys, gears, bearings, and shafts. That's when shit hits the fan.

@InsideHuntersCrackPipe101

Жыл бұрын

I also am dealing with limp mode which cuts acceleration and only allows you to get around 30-40 mph.

Yes! Another Ivan video! I was going into withdrawal! Can't wait for part II.

Ivan another good video. Looking forward to part 2. Will look into downloading the pico files at least the ones for Honda’s if they have any. Thanks again for sharing stay well and safe. Artie👍

I cannot fix the rattle from a scan tool. Time to take it apart! Thanks for the video Ivan.

Excellent as alway Ivan ... Nice shout out to Bernie! Nice to know you are as envious of his 8 channel scope as I am of your 4!

@Thunderroad8517

3 жыл бұрын

I’m envious of both 4 and 8...

my brain hurts this am so i'll just wait for part 2. ivan will figure it out.

I can’t wait to own a picoscope! One day!!! Look hard to learn lol but I like learning. Nice waveform tho 👍🏼 .

It’s the suspense for me!😁 Cant wait to see what happens next! 😎

@Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics Ivan, that is quite an advanced analysis but seems like a stretch to me! Unchained logic got me quite phased! Troubleshooting to another degree. Sorry for the bad puns Ivan. You are the best. You should have so many more followers! Your videos are like a class in automotive theory. Thank you my friend! I have learned so much from you!

I agree with inspection of timing chain. But I would look at chain tension on bank 2. Possible bad tensioner causing problems and causing noisey operation.

My guess is the timing chain/actuator not set correctly when replaced and ran well for 15K miles but ECM reached the threshold for further control/compensation for the timing offset. Re-set timing chain/actuator? 🤷‍♂️

@mykofreder1682

3 жыл бұрын

If it is possible to do this by not having timing marks aligned incorrectly by not following procedures or double checking finished job, would be my guess. I have seen him counting links also, so for a few degrees the way the chain hangs seems to be important. On another channel someone was rebuilding a high powered engine, that blew up after someone installed performance timing components and failed to check the final assembly after moving the marks in assembly.

Nice challenge Ivan. Let's see what happens in P2!

Ivan chasing up another automotive “who, errrrr, what done it” mystery. I’m thinking the chain jumped a tooth, and perhaps the tensioner wasn’t installed properly, or the chain guide on the bank 2 side has allowed for slack in the chain maybe. Also oil pressure fluctuation to the actuator could be in play. In for the part 2! Can’t wait to learn.

Ivan-You should get together with Big Clive-You both make my head spin-I have no idea what you are talking about but it is remarkably interesting.

*Nearing 100000! Congratulations!*

You're gonna have to remove the timing cover.....

Given the fact that it comes and goes I'd say a faulty phaser. In my opinion if the cam was out a tooth it would have done this right away and be more consistent. I think it's phaser time. Love that pico. It's on my wish list...

Saturday morning coffee and PHAD video. Now Flash back to that damn Astra! Thanks Ivan. LOL! Pull the timing cover p.i.a. bring to TDC. and visual inspection that every thing is set right. My bet bad cam phaser.

I loved the Bernies scope reference!! ;))

Failed guide or stripped out tensioner??? Great video as always!! I’ll be waiting for part 2!

@JasonLee-lv7tm

Жыл бұрын

Who does a timing chain job without replacing the guides and tensioner? I guess the same type of person that wouldn’t rotate the crankshaft 2 full revolutions prior to putting everything back together

Good morning Ivan!!!👍🔧👏

What would I do? 🤔 In your position I'd think I'd have enough to confirm 1 one the chains was not installed properly. Idk? In the very beginning, I theorized a lack of crank relearning would be the issue. That's definitely not the case. The scope correlation says it all. I love those back probes, but I found that some of the heat shrink on the pin needs to be stripped back. I'd say at least half to 3/4 of it.... then they work soooo much better. I think they my faves, when it comes to backprobing. Now I'll wait patiently for part 2. 😶😬😜

Was the cam phaser (sprocket) misaligned? Or wrong part? The dieseling sound when starting could be oil starvation to oil solenoids, bad solenoids, or that engine needs DEXOS synthetic oil; Mobil 1 Full Synthetic solved that noise for us on a different Ecotec engine.

You have the old phasers sitting there. Count the number of teeth on them ans divide by 720* and you can assign how many degrees of camshaft rotation per tooth to rule out or confirm a jumped chain.

@W.Khairi

3 жыл бұрын

What a great idea

@AntonBabiy

3 жыл бұрын

Phasers are 40t thus following your logic 720/40=18deg

@HandyC

3 жыл бұрын

Cam degree is not crank degree, no need for 720 degree here.. 360 degrees in a circle and 40 teeth on that circle, 40 into 360 is 9 my dude... it's a tooth out IMO.

@nickbee1291

3 жыл бұрын

@@HandyC you're right. And that lines up perfectly with Ivan's findings. This explains why he is 9* off with 0% control valve duty cycle.

The rattle on start up is giving you all the info you need. Something is coming apart, 'newer' or not. I think the phaser on that cam is the issue, replaced or not..

Nice one Ivan 👍👍👍👍

We did a full timing job on 4 cylinder ecotech and didn't have the exhaust phaser lined up. Got a P0017. Corrected that and it's fine. I'd check the phaser either the key is not in the hole or the torque to yield bolt is loose is my guess. Cloyes kit and so far so good very smooth and quiet. But probably less than 1K miles so time will tell.

I would check the timing he may be a Tooth out or the phaser has issues? When it was done with new phasers it might have been able to cope with only occasional issues but as the oil got older it caused the problem to arise more often. ( I know it says the oil has been changed recently) which maybe why it’s not setting the code consistently... looking forward to the answer

You've proven there is a timing issue. But you've also proven that it can go away for periods of time. So what happened when you drove it and it drove perfect? Cars don't fix themselves. At this point I would start from scratch. Make sure that electronically everything is working. Making sure the control solenoids work. Make sure the PCM can control the solenoids. And verify good oil pressure. If everything electronically is working then it's time to get approval from customer to pull it all back apart. And you might not see the problem when you pull it back apart if somehow the bank 2 phaser is moving. It might settle in a neutral position and be in time. I've done many GM V6 chains. They're timed a little different than most V6's. And once you set the timing you can't rotate the crank and re-verify timing. You have to use colored links on the chain. So once you turn the crank the colored links aren't going to align again. Also I've had a few of these where I do the chains, tensioners, guides, phasers and control solenoids as preventative maintenance. And a week later or an hour later that exact DTC comes up. And at least 3 times that I can remember it was a defective cam phaser. You can scope it and see it. And if you find a bad phaser often once you remove it you can compare it to a known good and see that the trigger wheel for the cam sensor has shifted.

@QBRX

3 жыл бұрын

Wow, you know your stuff. Ivan needs to hear what someone with all your experience has to say.

@W.Khairi

3 жыл бұрын

So cool

@bretpashnick4755

3 жыл бұрын

He said they were changed with the chains. You can hear it making noise when it starts you know they are not staying locked. It didn't sound too good just at idle either. Cheap aftermarket parts don't do well in this engine. Sounds like the bitterness of problems lingers on long after the sweetness of a cheap price.

@sinegra30

3 жыл бұрын

@@QBRX LOL!

@throttlebottle5906

3 жыл бұрын

they will realign again, after a certain number of full rotations (I don't know how many offhand and am not doing the math) lol by the rattle on startup and it jumps around randomly, I'd guess one of the tensioner or guide on that bank, but it could easily be the primary chain/guide/idler sprocket. odd one bank lash can show up from harmonic induction. I'm betting they didn't do a whole complete timing kit of every component and now something else has failed ;)

Time to count the teeth on the phasers and see if the timing can be off one tooth.

@ekaftan

3 жыл бұрын

if it has 36 teeth its one off :)

@sblagg527

3 жыл бұрын

@@ekaftan Maybe my math is wrong but if it's 9 degrees off wouldn't that mean the phaser has 40 teeth, IF the problem is indeed that it is one tooth off? (9 degrees x 40 teeth = 360 degrees)

@ekaftan

3 жыл бұрын

@@sblagg527 You are right for 9 degrees... I calculated 10 off. Either way, Ivan's measurements are not 1 degree accurate, so either of us can be right :)

That startup rattle is concerning, pointing to low oil pressure. However, before condemning the oil pump or engine, check the oil filter. I've mentioned it before, but GM changed designs on the ACDelco oil filters to the Champ E-core, which are terribly cheap, low-quality parts. They also seem to restrict oil flow because the design is not the same as the original filters. Once I detected that issue on my vehicles, I stopped using ACDelco filters and switched to Hastings instead. Wix and Purolator are also good filters.

I have a hard time believing that the original work would cause the P0018. Six or so months later. Possibly defective parts, lack of oil pressure/ volume to the chain tensioner . I would imagine if the job was done incorrectly that code would have come back almost immediately or after a few Drive cycles. "Chain stretch" or 'Chain Wear" and sprocket wear can be caused due to low oil pressure over time. Ive seen this many times at the shop where another shop has changed the chain and tensioner without measuring or changing the phasers gears. Or tensioner fails causing a jump in timing. Great Vid Ivan !!!!!!

It sounds exactly like there was a way procedural errors during the timing chain installation. I’ve seen when people replace the oil control solenoids and phasers and timing chain that they don’t follow the steps where it tells you to rotate the engine a few times to get some people oil Flow and then re check timing so you can see if there was some play in the phasers or something that would allow timing to slip very slightly during initial startup Then once it has full oil pressure and is commanded on its already a few degrees off. But the fact that it has start up rattle still kind of leads me more towards an oil bleed back or bleed off issue somewhere in the timing system, it is dohc so you could even have excessive clearance allowing for the excessive bleed off of it could be the oil was real dirty when the timing set was originally installed and whatever wAs left in the oil galleys got pumped into the oil control solenoid or phaser when it was first started which is causing the mechanism to stick. Defective timing set. Idk got some reason timing chain stretch doesn’t seem entirely likely due to the fact that the code was set shortly after the timing set was replaced unless it was a bad chain from the beginning or it was stretched the wrong way during install.

@W.Khairi

3 жыл бұрын

Cool stuff

@bretpashnick4755

3 жыл бұрын

That's not how this engine is timed. You cannot recheck the timing once its rotated.

@Dwrecksk8Yo

3 жыл бұрын

@@bretpashnick4755 maybe not by the conventional timing marks but you can definitely check the timing with a piston stop and by knowing your intake and exhaust center lines. I don’t know this engine like that I was talking about vvt engines in general. But yea idk what the exact timing procedure is on this, I was only guessing what could’ve happened.

Hey ivan, that so weird!! I figure it's the chain being so off by that much. What i would do is reset the timing chain and make sure it's set right.

I always hated that code. I remember that there was a head change identified by the cam caps. I had one that had the new style head that didn't need the fiber washers but someone put them on and it plugged the oil passage when it disintegrated. The rest of them were sludge monsters, do to the EGR effect used with the cam phasing. Sounds like a phaser not locking up, tear down time. Exploratory surgery.

Great video Ivan. Could the timing be off because you can hear a sound on start up.

We have a new engine in ours and it has the same rattle at startup for about 3 seconds and goes away. Tried different dexos oils and filters. Only does it on cold startup. No codes. Warranty will only pay for half of the repairs. We still don’t know what’s wrong though. Did it since first startup.

Okay, I'm a day late to this party, but here's my probably-wrong guess. Two parts. First, when he did the timing chain job, he may have been just a *fraction* out of time on the #2 cam, but the tightness of the new chain created enough tension to mask it. As the chains aged, stretched ever so little, the error became exposed. Second part: Recent oil change may suggest the *prior* oil change was vastly overdue and possibly contributing to the issue.

Could you have a worn cam lobe for that valve?

Come on Ivan, you need to get the Escope so we can see some videos of you using it. I like watching Bernie Thompson use his but you put out more videos.

I bet it was just within the threshold with new chains and now that they are broke in it’s that 1 extra degree past. Was off from day one is my guess is there about 40 teeth on them phasers?

Love your approach to finding the problem, but is there any chance you can upgrade your camcorder ? It's really difficult to make out the laptop screens at 720p .keep up the great videos

Could it be a timing chain tensioner is it hydraulic some of them are? All the best from Canada

Again a Cliffhanger, Swap the solenoids. if there is no shange then I will redo the timing job, but first compare the old fasers with the new ones. Has the fasers be adjusted on the camshafts.?

@Ausblack

3 жыл бұрын

Phasers.

I have the exact same problem but code came up immediately after replacing chains and the works in the kit.. It stays off if you clear codes until the next start but shows pending even when light is off...??

Off one tooth on chain 40 teeth on that phaser sprocket. 360/40 = 9° assuming it was barely within spec with a brand new chain and has just barely stretched to start flagging that code. When in there reseting the timing might be worth throwing a tentioner on that bank due to the rattle on startup.

Ivan. If you were working for SpaceX starship 9 and 10 would still be alive... BOOM!

Following you so far...

Tensioner let the chain slip a tooth maybe? Based on the startup rattle?

Did he replace the chain guides & hydraulic tensioners? The rattle during first start up is due to bad tensioners.

Check bank2 inlet cam timing and its phaser fitting.

Seconds into the video my thought was garbage aftermarket phasers,,,, I'm sticking with that....

Is it normal for that engine to be so noisy? Sounds like the “Thresher” sinking? Thanks....Jim PS.....timing chain not installed properly or some parts stretched or broke....already?

@MNTruckerMike

3 жыл бұрын

My 3.6 is quiet, this is way to noisy.

ether they put it on 1teeth wrong or you got a lazy solenoid ,bad connector?

Was it changed on a Monday?

I definitely call the customer and tell the customer that it is possible that the intake side of the timing chain wasn't actually replaced. Or wasnt times properly. It needs taken apart to see

From what I gather the car runs right sometimes... If the chain jumped a tooth, this issue shouldn't be intermittent. I mean it shouldn't work sometimes.... I mean maybe I misunderstood the problem... if it's constant since the timing chain was done, it was done wrong... If the issue is intermittent, you could be looking at engine oil pressure issues, where you don't have the pressure to advance the phaser or load the tensioner. Low oil pressure would also cause the rattle at start up. I'd likely want to check the oil pressure just to rule that out. Next, as 3 carms are fine and only one is slogging behind... I'd also suspect the phaser that's running behind. Lastly if the problem has been constant since the timing job was done... it was done wrong or the new parts were bad.

Would Oil viscosity have any issue

sewing machine needles make great back probing pins too.

Were the tensioners and guides replaced? I've done this job on 2 engines and if you don't replace everything, you're asking for trouble down the line.

OK, just from you saying it's a 2009 3.6 L GM V6. I say Time for a timing set. And PCV system

Did they put the right oil in it?

time to open the front engine ,is a oem chain or a cheap one? ,how about the guides ,and yes everytime you do timing chain you must change all the components ,the water pump is warranty 245k 10 years also the thermostat.

@richardc6038

3 жыл бұрын

even the Oem chain are really rebranded as a cheep one meaning look like the right box feel the right weight but the wrong or use chain

This fault is intermittent, so is there a fault or does the computer think there is one preventing the timing to advance? Check the wiring loom and connections before stripping timing covers etc. Either that or something is sticking and not moving when it should.

Hi man! Great video! My case is very complicated, i really need your advice.. I own Camaro 2011 V6 3.6 which throws P0008 P0016... 1. Timing Chain Replaced(Cloyes complete kit) 2. 4 Cam Phasers Replaced(OEM) 3. 4 Selenoids Replaced(OEM) 4. 4 Cam Sensors Replaced(ACDelco) 5. Crankshaft Sensor Replaced(ACDelco) Unfortunately nothing changed.. Still same codes. My mechanics double checked alignment... My car is running sluggish,poor.. What should we do next? Pls help

@B.D.94

Жыл бұрын

Same thing happen to my Mazda cx9 2009. How did you solve the problem?

You troubleshoot like an engineer would, Ivan. Nice case study.

I agree with 1 teeth off error on the respective phaser cam.

Guessing on this Chevvvvvrooolet,..... Cam Phaser whacky; also causing that startup momentary rattle. Ebay phasers known for the startup rattle.

@EKHondaMotive

3 жыл бұрын

Apparently OE replacement parts were used... 🤷🏿‍♂️ -100

New parts can have faults. And i would still run away, No suprise there :-D

My guess is phaser not locking. Do an in cylinder pressure test. Rattle on start make me think this is the direction.

Timing chain tensioner?

Change the chain and the " sprockets ", most are changing only the chain. The sprockets are wearing out causing loose chain and timing issues.

@mikefoehr235

3 жыл бұрын

I think that is a good idea.

@tomvleeuwen

3 жыл бұрын

The camshaft sprockets are part of the phasers, those are normally too expensive to replace on cars with 80k+ miles, but on this car they were replaced. The crankshaft sprocket is part of most timing chain kits, so if you go all the way with the phasers, it would be very strange not to replace the crankshaft sprocket. I don't know if this car has any intermediate sprockets?

Looks like you need to get yourself some t-pins (or make your own from small paperclips 😁)

chain tensioner?

Captain Kirk sez: We can get Scotty to fix those Phaser banks AND repair yer warp drive.😎👍

Hey there ivan,

Oil pressure?

Can it be the oil level?

there’s 2 different part #’s for the phasers intake & exhaust So I think he or they put a exhaust phaser on the intake side I’ve seen it done before GM TECH OUT!!..

I think it's 1 tooth off on the cam shaft I'm pretty sure those came shafts have 40 teeth 360 degrees of rotation ÷ 9 is 40 that's my guess. I would check the timing marks next

@W.Khairi

3 жыл бұрын

Very cool observation

🤔wonder if he’s off 1 tooth 🦷 on the Timing Chain.

@CubasAutomotive

3 жыл бұрын

Thats my thought exactly. 😉

Because comparing two different vehicles is pointless, it will lead to an erroneous result. Even if a timing chain stretches, there are mechanical devices to place tension on the chain to keep it tight. Therefore, the chain itself will remain on the same tooth of the camshaft gear. All you would have needed to do was compare it when both of the camshafts are at their top dead Centerpoint, however, since your scanner sat on zeros the entire time that should've been the first issue

@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics

4 ай бұрын

? 🤔

Time for tear down!

Good morning ivan

@CRAPO2011

3 жыл бұрын

Mornin'

Looks like the old Suzuki is doing well... working on buying a tracker with a possible failed timing chain.

I would check timming marks, see if they are correct

I'm thinking loose fasteners somewhere in the cam phasers

@simonparkinson1053

3 жыл бұрын

With the VVT disabled, comparing the waveforms on acceleration and overrun would likely show up timing variance for such a fault

Chain tensioner for b1 collapsed.

@simonparkinson1053

3 жыл бұрын

But then why only the intake off time?

That’s strange what what is the mileage on the car

crank relearm procedure needed to be done after timing chain replacement

The difference in timing maybe a bad hydraulic tensioner on the secondary chain on that bank.

Yes check installation? something is not good.

That sounds like low oil pressure no?

Just sounds fine… I have a 2013 Hyundai Santa Fe & that same code is popping up.. What the heck should I do ??????

@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics

Жыл бұрын

Watch this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/qaOLq9GqY7PTnLg.html

@thegreek2640

Жыл бұрын

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics so what was it the solenoids????

You must have a fancy scanner to delete codes with the engine off

You do know that Pico makes an 8 channel scope as well

That Shivey sounded like a diesel 😆

I say call Eric from South main auto and you guys make other great video together solving this car ps tell Eric don't forget the ice cream

Been down this road. Ugh.

Just my imagination or does that engine sound loud, like an exhaust leak?