Below are the time codes and links to donate to fund this podcast! This show is part of The Nuance Hug Foundation, a 501c3 non-profit so all donations to Donorbox are tax-deductible. Thank you! 00:00 Recapping the context 5:04 Overview of the massacre 7:12 The story of the massacre 9:09 Violent context of Issac Haight 11:50 Mormon militia men report the immigrant murders and commit more murders 14:00 100 witnesses to the cattle raiding and murders, race against time to Salt Lake 18:07 Immigrants searching for help are murdered 20:27 Issac Haight concocts the horrible cover-up plan 25:50 Mormons militia men agree to go 30:00 Leaders explaining the gruesome plan to the militia, lies to the immigrants 33:36 Immigrants are untrusting but desperate 37:45 The horrific attack begins 42:16 Looting begins, traumatized babies 46:24 Accounting for the people killed 48:45 What we hope comes from telling this story 50:56 Barbara realizes she is a decendant a perpetrator 54:09 Haight bragging right after the slaughter 57:00 What we’ll cover next time 🤝 EQUIPMENT FUNDRAISER: donorbox.org/christmas-eve-equipment-fundraiser-2 👩‍💻 Join the Hoetown community on Patreon: www.patreon.com/nuancehoe 🍯 Tip Jar (Venmo: CarahB): account.venmo.com/u/CarahB

Mormon prophets are really bad at foreseeing the ultimate consequences of their actions. It's almost as if - hear me out - they're not really prophets.

I’ve heard about the MMM but only in a general way. This detail is amazing and so sad. Great guest!

I am reading now and would love to learn more about the MMM murder ballad! I love the imagery of people singing the ballad when John D Lee was around. Great book!

These hours go so fast with you two. Fantastic interviews.

@CarahBurrell

6 ай бұрын

Times flies when you’re having fun and also the opposite of fun like this. Rest easy, we have at least 4 more episodes coming!

@marylamphere2112

6 ай бұрын

@@CarahBurrell I am thoroughly hooked. I adore the channel as a whole but this has me engrossed

@thomaselias1069

6 ай бұрын

I love these stories I first heard about the mountain Meadow massacre in the book beneath the banner heaven about the Lafferty Brothers I love listening to your guises podcast. Keep up the work you’re doing God‘s work

@raindance1962

5 ай бұрын

Really enjoying these interviews on this topic. So much horror yet needs to be understood and heard

Love that you're shining a light on this story. Can't wait to pick up Barbara's book. I don't think those "Pioneer" roots are such a flex anymore.

I'd like to se a similar breakdown on the Timpanogos tribe's extermination and enslavement by the Mormons

@whitesalamander

6 ай бұрын

Mormons actually have a Timpanogos Temple 🥴

Just went and read the Wikipedia. And wtf. How can we hope to create a place of worship for the peaceful loving message of Jesus with the blood of innocents on our hands? Not just the LDS, I’m looking at you, Catholic Church, and racist Protestants also. ✌️♥️🙏🕯️

I am a descendant of Priscilla and Jacob Hamblin. I have Vengeance is Mine on audible, and listened to the whole thing 💔 Thank you for doing this series, and thank you, Barbara, for your hard work on this topic 💗

I so appreciate all the research and context for these terrible events (and all the great work you both do!). As a naive TBM at 17, the Mountain Meadow Massacre was the first negative thing I'd ever heard about the church. A non-Mormon coworker asked me about it when he found out I was LDS and at that time, I hadn't even heard about it. It def wasn't the type of thing they taught in my Sunday School class.

Didn’t see this book available yet on Kindle…. Just trying to save a tree…😊

Powerful recounting. Thank you Barbara!

I'm a descendant of JDL and at least one of the other area families that housed the orphaned children until they were returned to their relatives. Vengance is Mine has been passed around among my relatives recently. Such a horrible event in our history.

@JohnDLee-im4lo

5 ай бұрын

You needn't be ashamed of your ancestor or his part in this tragedy. Our grandfather is blameless. When you're ready to set aside the hysterical rantings of those with an agenda who post here: THE FACTS: It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia, a regularly constituted military division of the State of Deseret. The Mormons had left the US when they came west into Utah, unincorporated Mexican territory. They set up their own government, printed money and declared themselves independent of the federal government. With the end of the Mexican War in 1848, western lands were ceded to the US as part of that treaty. In effect, the US government followed the Mormons out to Utah. When the feds tried to impose federal authority in Utah, the State of Deseret didn't take too kindly to it. The officers that had been sent to "govern" Utah were sent packing back to Washington. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment afforded them in Missouri and Illinois that ended in the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother. They were in no mood to be governed by the same people who had driven and killed them. As a result of the wild tales of rebellion, President Buchanan dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to "quash the Mormon rebellion" in 1857. Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory and the Mormons were preparing for a military assault on their community. This was the climate into which the Fancher wagon train rolled. The Mormons wouldn't trade with them because they were preparing for war. They were frustrated and threatened to go into San Bernardino and bring the troops up the southern flank of the Mormons while the army units attacked from the north. I'm no military genius but you can't have a two-front war. The wagon train was unfortunately in the middle of a conflict they couldn't control and lost their lives. As a military matter, it worked perfectly. None of those people made it to the military outpost at San Bernardino. Innocents die in war all the time. Our ancestor was one of those. His death was necessary to allow statehood for Utah as the church could ill afford this matter to be laid at their feet. The very survival of the church depended on avoiding blame. War is hell. Tragic but understandable. The winners of war usually get to write the history and so they call this encounter a "massacre". If Washington had lost the Revolutionary War, he would have been hung as a traitor and his skirmishes would have been called "massacres"...see how it works?

@birdlyword2

4 ай бұрын

@@JohnDLee-im4lo I said nothing about my personal feelings regarding John D Lee. He was a complex man whose life consisted of much more than the days surrounding September 11, 1857. Regardless of the historical context, I still maintain that this event was horrible. Many innocent people were killed. Even if we assume this was part of a war, the fact that innocent people die in war doesn't make it a good thing. Even JDL wrote later that he said, "My God, this is more than I can do. I must and do refuse to take part in this matter," before he relented and played his part in the plan. Of course, he was only one of many who participated. It is taking me years to unravel this story and what it means to me as someone with a generational connection, and I am far from done. One of the things I ponder often is what happens when there is a clash between conscience and orders from someone in authority.

@JohnDLee-im4lo

4 ай бұрын

@@birdlyword2 War is always horrible. Should we have tried and executed the pilot of the Enola Gaye who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? 80,000+ innocent men, women and children killed in a flash. Don't you think he struggled with his conscience? Of course, but he did his duty and saved millions from an invasion of Japan. JDL did what was necessary to protect the Mormon church and the State of Deseret. The Paiutes called John "yaw guts" which means crybaby. He wasn't wanting to do what he had to do but he did his duty and saved many lives by preventing a US troop invasion from the south while an attack was imminent from the North. Many people on both sides would surely have been killed in such a two-front war. War is hell.

Thank you. Watching from Alaska. Heartbreaking.

Great interview and truthism.

As a descendant I am so ANGRY with the church- with their Books of lies and excuses- many of us are! They can be friends with the “Mormon” Fanchers…. But most of us are hurt our relatives remains are are still being held ransom by the very institution that murdered them.😡

The Mormon Church in Cedar City had abandoned human decency due to the religious frenzy that had swept over Utah.

@JohnDLee-im4lo

5 ай бұрын

When you're ready to set aside the hysterical rantings of those with an agenda who post here: THE FACTS: It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia, a regularly constituted military division of the State of Deseret. The Mormons had left the US when they came west into Utah, unincorporated Mexican territory. They set up their own government, printed money and declared themselves independent of the federal government. With the end of the Mexican War in 1848, western lands were ceded to the US as part of that treaty. In effect, the US government followed the Mormons out to Utah. When the feds tried to impose federal authority in Utah, the State of Deseret didn't take too kindly to it. The officers that had been sent to "govern" Utah were sent packing back to Washington. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment afforded them in Missouri and Illinois that ended in the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother. They were in no mood to be governed by the same people who had driven and killed them. As a result of the wild tales of rebellion, President Buchanan dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to "quash the Mormon rebellion" in 1857. Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory and the Mormons were preparing for a military assault on their community. This was the climate into which the Fancher wagon train rolled. The Mormons wouldn't trade with them because they were preparing for war. They were frustrated and threatened to go into San Bernardino and bring the troops up the southern flank of the Mormons while the army units attacked from the north. I'm no military genius but you can't have a two-front war. The wagon train was unfortunately in the middle of a conflict they couldn't control and lost their lives. As a military matter, it worked perfectly. None of those people made it to the military outpost at San Bernardino. Innocents die in war all the time. War is hell. Tragedy but understandable. The winners of war usually get to write the history and so they call this encounter a "massacre". If Washington had lost the Revolutionary War, he would have been hung as a traitor and his skirmishes would have been called "massacres"...see how it works?

You gotta love Carah!

@CarahBurrell

6 ай бұрын

GOTTA LOVE BARBARA 🙏🏻

I sobbed 😭 my heart aches!!

I agree on St. George. I was on a 13 day bus trip and St. George was our first stop and it was the first of 11 Chinese food buffets we ate at. When the trip ended and I was home I told my roommate she couldn't order Chinese food for at least 2 weeks.

Theses episodes are so hard to listen to bc they are so sad. I feel like I need to listen to honor the victims.

Last week listening to the rhetoric that was being used by the leaders and how they knew it would lead to violence from the non-leaders left me with an uneasy feeling. Then the story broke about the man who unalived his father and called for an attack against Biden supporters and I realized why I was so uneasy, we're seeing it in real time now.

39:40 maybe I missed something but why did they trust these Mormon people? didn’t they already witness the murders before this day?

Ok off topic but KZread why do you always give me praying ads on only the videos from ex Mormons I watch? Like do you not get the context that it’s not appropriate to have the dude from passion of the Christ praying before a video of Mormons murdering people?

When you say immigrants I assume white immigrants and not natives so im confused did natives get massacred or was it non mormon white immigrants get killed by mormon militia?

@tararose5136

6 ай бұрын

Like how are natives involved?

@ezbody

5 ай бұрын

Mormons had a group of natives join them and used them as a cover for the attack. They also dressed up as natives themselves.

@JohnDLee-im4lo

5 ай бұрын

The Paiutes attacked the wagon train and held them under siege for 2 days before the Mormons ever got involved. The Iron County Militia came and finished the job. When you're ready to set aside the hysterical rantings of those with an agenda who post here: THE FACTS: It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia, a regularly constituted military division of the State of Deseret. The Mormons had left the US when they came west into Utah, unincorporated Mexican territory. They set up their own government, printed money and declared themselves independent of the federal government. With the end of the Mexican War in 1848, western lands were ceded to the US as part of that treaty. In effect, the US government followed the Mormons out to Utah. When the feds tried to impose federal authority in Utah, the State of Deseret didn't take too kindly to it. The officers that had been sent to "govern" Utah were sent packing back to Washington. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment afforded them in Missouri and Illinois that ended in the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother. They were in no mood to be governed by the same people who had driven and killed them. As a result of the wild tales of rebellion, President Buchanan dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to "quash the Mormon rebellion" in 1857. Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory and the Mormons were preparing for a military assault on their community. See Utah War: 1857-58. This was the climate into which the Fancher wagon train rolled. The Mormons wouldn't trade with them because they were preparing for war. The immigrants were frustrated and threatened to go into San Bernardino and bring the troops up the southern flank of the Mormons while the army units attacked from the north. I'm no military genius but you can't have a two-front war. The wagon train was unfortunately in the middle of a conflict they couldn't control and lost their lives. As a military matter, it worked perfectly. None of those people made it to the military outpost at San Bernardino. Innocents die in war all the time. War is hell. Tragedy but understandable. The winners of war usually get to write the history and so they call this encounter a "massacre". If Washington had lost the Revolutionary War, he would have been hung as a traitor and his skirmishes would have been called "massacres"...see how it works?

@FormerMPSGT

10 күн бұрын

@@JohnDLee-im4lo MORMONS ARE LIARS! SELF JUSTIFIED! IF HOU DON’T AGREE WITH THEM THEN THEY JUST CALL YOU STUPID! MORMONISM IS AN ANTI CHRISTIAN CULT!