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I find one of the hardest parts is not being swayed by the worldly people around me who ask why I’m not doing more with my life.

@TheDhammaHub

5 ай бұрын

That is indeed very hard. The Buddha even said that a monk who _is_ restraint right now is likely to _no longer_ be restrained if he lives "in a village"

I see so to stop valuing things that are pleasurable you have to understand that it will not free you from being dissatisfied and the only way to know this is to willfully sit with dissatisfaction especially after indulgence almost like an observational study where you =N of 1 and seeing what the experience of pleasure brings and the costs. I have to experience undesirable mental states and observe myself and see how it fluctuates and understand it inside and out. The whole point is to eliminate suffering but not with pleasure but understanding which can only come from experiencing the thing you well I typically run away from. I think I am starting to somewhat understand

@TheDhammaHub

2 ай бұрын

To be precise, you _actively_ "do" or "fuel" our own suffering and dissatisfaction. It is an action of the mind that we habitually engage in unknowingly. That is the only reason that we can stop it, because it is soemthing we do. So to free ourselves from that, we have to discern and understand that and _how_ we are doing it in the first place. The restraint and "sitting with the pain" are surely parts of that as you cannot understand suffering unless you allow yourself to suffer. otherwise there is simply nothing to examine!

Is it enough to attempt to reduce my wants down to zero through restraint, or should I also be trying to cultivate wholesome thoughts at the same time? Because through restraining I am not acting or speaking unwholesomely, but I don’t necessarily feel like I am free from greed or hatred when doing this. If I keep persevering, will the unwholesomeness on the mental level just naturally reduce on account of restraint on the body and speech level, since they are interconnected?

@TheDhammaHub

5 ай бұрын

You should also develop mindfulness and discernment! It is just that those two things are a bit like "trying to see really hard" (cultivation) whiel virtue etc are a bit like "making the water less muddy"

@kzantal

5 ай бұрын

​@@TheDhammaHub Excellent analogy!!

oh I see why renunciation in moderation can drive the habit to give up certain pleasures for a more subtle pleasure from meditation. I see it is not that you cant do this practice in moderation it is more that you will be too distracted to notice that the thing driving renunciation is from the same place that drove you to get more pleasure. So as long as you are continually examining your reasons for doing things and enduring dissatisfaction but not from the sake of avoiding it or replacing it with pleasure then you can in practice do this practice, as long as there is the motivation to gain knowledge of why you suffer.

@TheDhammaHub

2 ай бұрын

I must admit, I do not quite understand what you are trying to say here^^

@nicbarth3838

2 ай бұрын

@@TheDhammaHub I am probably being too vague I want to address a point you made about how suffering is something we actively do, yea I agree and I realized this with my thought loops where I would worry about the future and then I realized myself thinking about the future in real time and having that awareness was the reason I was able to stop doing that, the most important thing I need to learn is non reactivity to whatever thoughts I am having, because sometimes they are evaluated as having descriptive power over what my life or future will be, but this comes from not being aware of the thoughts that seem real to me. Yea I was able to stop making myself suffer mostly for a whole week last year and while there was still some there it felt like I had a completely different perspective on what my thoughts even are and how to relate to them and who I am, I felt like I was detached and could see my thoughts form and how that gives me false perceptions about my life and the future, yet it left and I am back to being largely the same as I was before this. Man it is frustrating but I know it is possible at least to not suffer at least that is how I felt during that week. Now that things are back to normal I have doubt again

This was non-information. You say that "very early" practice can feel bad, and it is impossible to tell how long this "very early" stage lasts. So your advice can be summarized as: "If your practice is not joyful, you either need to do something else... or you need to do more of the same thing." Which is an unhelpful tautology.

@TheDhammaHub

4 ай бұрын

Well, I could give you a simile. Imagine several people who smoke. Some of them are very addicted and need at least a pack each day. Others are only mildly addicted and maybe need a handfull a day. Both of them have to do the same thing if they want to get over their addicted, namely abstan from smoking any longer and enduring the bad feelings and the stress that results from it. Yet, due to prior engagement, one will have mild withdrawl symptoms and the other person ehavy symptoms. As _I myself_ do not know your prior engagement and strength of addiction, the will be a variable time of bad feelings due to withdrawl. The same is true for the practice, as you try to "get away" from the mother of _all addictions_ which is what sensuality is. Once you are no longer forced around by cigarettes/urges, you will feel free and light.

@boobiduapp7272

4 ай бұрын

@@TheDhammaHub: Should I be able to judge whether I am in the "very early" phase? If so, how?

@TheDhammaHub

4 ай бұрын

@@boobiduapp7272 Well, you can certainly do it better than any other person but that does not mean that you are "naturally skilled" at it. If you experience a _lot_ of emotional pressure to "give in" to craving, it might be a sign that you are quite deep down the sensuality rabbit hole due to past habits and that the entire process might be more uncomfortable for you

@boobiduapp7272

4 ай бұрын

​@@TheDhammaHub: Let me make it more concrete. I have not renounced sensual pleasures in general, but one thing I have focused on a lot since I read about the dharma is Skillful Speech: I strive to speak kindly and give constructive advice instead of attacks or accusations, and stay silent if I have nothing valuable to say. This has SOME benefits; it prevents some conflicts and saves me some time I might otherwise spend arguing. But I would not say I feel any JOY from it. It never makes me feel "wow, this dharma is really worth it". Even in situations where I avoid what might otherwise be an unpleasant conflict, I do not feel joy. I just feel numb.

@TheDhammaHub

4 ай бұрын

@@boobiduapp7272 In your example of speech, the restraint would be the first step where you can intellectually "reason" that its good for you, just like an addict knows that his drug is bad for him deep down. Yet, he goes to his drug again and again. The goal is to restrain _sufficiently_ so that you can contemplate the danger and drawback of your bad habits while you are _not pressured_ - whenever there is craving, your contemplations are at least a bit wrong. You want to understand the the _pressure to act_ is actually what suffering is. So only when you understand that pressure as dangerous will there be a relief. That said, the relief comes _after_ you have given something up, not through restraint alone. Restraint is an enable to dig for the roots of your craving and the contemplate those as anicca, dhukkha and anatta