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@memysefandeveryone

6 ай бұрын

Thank you for sharing this book

I’ve practiced kind of like this for years but thought with all of the meditation teachers and instructions I was doing it wrong. So this is quite validating

I spent a year living in the Jhanas and actually lost that due to following bad interpretations of Dhamma. I’m happy to encounter someone whose understanding matches my experience. Thanks for the reminder

Your videos make the path to awakening so clear. You’re practically screaming “over hear, over hear, this is the way.”

Hi, I am Mark, a new subscriber, and I was awaiting this very video. Thank you…🙏

Another banger of a video! So would you say in this context that the right view is basically experiencing the mind without craving? Which is the same as seeing the end of suffering for the first time? Once you've seen it, you can't forget it. Would seeing this make you see anatta or is understanding anatta rather a stepping stone to help you to abandon craving on the right level? I feel it's the latter as it is hard or impossible to really let go until someone has pointed out anatta to you. Once you've seen it on the right level, you cannot unsee it. Then saying no, while still hard, becomes easier because, on some level, you now know that it is pointless to persue what is not yours.

@TheDhammaHub

10 ай бұрын

With the Right View, you see Anicca/anatta for the first time in its entirety and rightly. That does not mean you have seen it in all things, but now you know what you are looking for. Without it, the "right level" is inaccessible and whatever craving might be reduced wil lalways regrow. Only the Riht View on dependent origination can change that^^

Is it fair to say that going against the pull of craving is paying back one’s sensual debt, in part? Are there other ways to pay off my balance quickly (or slowly or at a moderate pace)?

@TheDhammaHub

10 ай бұрын

You could say that, yes. Whenever you restrain, you wil lfeel the weight of what you have accumulated before. IT is a bit like going on rehab when it comes to drugs. That said, restraint is just a first but necessary step. The real goal not only to weaken craving through that but to uproot it with wisdom. That would be the only way to _truly_ go beyond debt. In the Suttas, people are usually called "debtors" until they reach arahantship. That said, I am afraid the process has to be gradual for most people and you can only speed things up or slow things down within limits. In theory, you could "just" pay back al the debt at once, but we do not _want to_ ... as a result, we have to convince the mind that it is really better like that, which is gradual in nature

The Piti from prolonged seclusion is very hard to let go of a,nd as far as I can tell, it is a different type of longing that feels blameless (but of course still tainted with Tanha). Makes the similie of the cow that tries to step into 2nd without perfecting 1st that much more real and hitting home. One question / observation regarding the Vitakka Vicara in (or close to) the 1st. While the Buddha does say it is present, the content of the thinking and pondering is not 'external' but more of investigation of dhammas (i.e. dhammavicara). So it isn't the thinking and pondering about common / coarse things. Would you resonate with this ?

@TheDhammaHub

10 ай бұрын

I would call it "thinking and pondering the Dhamma/teachings" in the first Jhana

Isn't Satipatthana Sutta a kind of technique?

@TheDhammaHub

9 ай бұрын

I guess that would depend on how you define "technique". I would rather call it "instructions". Sati literally translates to memory/remembering and it is difficult to make a technique out of "remembering the tachings in a speciifc way"

You say that piti and sukha are mental. That they are not bodily sensations. That they should not be looked for in the body. What then does the Buddha mean when he says of the meditator in first jhana: 'He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure' (DN2, Thanissaro's translation)? (p.s. Thank you for your channel - I like having my views challenged.)

@TheDhammaHub

10 ай бұрын

Hey! The translation of that passage is fine and not really problematic. Piti and Sukha _also_ "do something" with the body... they e.g. lead to physical calm etc, but that calm should not be mistaken _for_ the piti etc. No feeling whatsoever could be possible without a body and one could thus say that they are "within the body". Yet, you feel all feelings with the mind. And when it comes to the simile of the ball of bath powder, I usually see it more as a simile for the "completeness" of the seclusion from sensuality (the bodily intentions) that one has attained. As Jhana can be seen as a type of mindfulness of the body, you make sure that _NOTHING_ (within the body) is exempt from that seclusion. Only then can you really "relax into it" and feel that full security for the same time. Hope that helps!

@thereisnonewthing

10 ай бұрын

Thank you for your quick reply - I tried your approach to jhana whilst you were writing it :) I think it's worthwhile, but my sense is that it suppresses the pleasure, happiness and peacefulness of first, second and third jhana, and takes one, eventually, to the equanimity of fourth jhana. Aren't the pleasures of the first three jhanas there to enjoyed?

@TheDhammaHub

10 ай бұрын

@@thereisnonewthing Actually, the first Jhana is the "most pleasant" by conventional means of all the Jhanas... the others get more and more "neutral" as you progerss through them. That said, there is no suppression of pleasure or anything happening in the First Buddha-Jhana if you "do" it rightly, quite the contrary! In noticing the thomplete freedom from _anything in the entire world_ , the complete safety, there is a _lot_ of safety-born joy or relief-born joy. It is much more sublime than anything you can imaging and yet... it is _completely detached_ and not nice because of the good feeling... the feeling is a byproduct and you realize that you _no longer rely on feeling good_ to be at ease. I often use a simile to describe the joy of the first Jhana when you attain it initially. Imagine being caught in the midst of a war, certain that you must die. Then there comes a kindhearted person along that you do not even know who knows the way to safety and shows it to you. Once you made it out of there you would be overcome with relief and great joy and later calm would be born from that. Yet, that kind of pleasure is not something that you can just repeat like that. Once you are safe, you are safe. To experience that "initial relief" again, you would have to go back to war, and who would be foolish enough to do that after having found the way out? The first Jhana leaves behind both _grief and delight in regard to the world_ The other Jhanas progressively let go of even finer things like verbal thinking in the second Jhana and even joy in the third. In the Fourth, you let go both pleasure and pain even and become perfectly equanimous. If youw ould try to suprpess any of that, you would not be able to attain any of the Jhanas and if you had attained one you would immediately fall out of it. The Jhanas are "levels of withdrawl" or "levels of non-attachment" that are accompanied by a completely new kind of peace /ease that cannot really be explained unelss one is willing to let everything go. There simply is no comparable experience before, as every other pelasure is "with the grain" while the pelasure of the Jhanas is "against the grain". Hope that helps a bit!

MN 119, 1st jhana specifically talks about the body. “They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out. In the same way, they drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.” It’s quite obvious your interpretation is incorrect based on this.

@TheDhammaHub

Ай бұрын

I am not quite sure in which way the presented interpretation would be wrong. As you might imagine, I (and many others) had have a look at the most popular stock phrases of Jhana before coming to my/our conclusions^^

@emperorpalpatine9841

Ай бұрын

1st jhana is clearly connected to piti in the body.

@TheDhammaHub

Ай бұрын

@@emperorpalpatine9841 If you look at the Suttas, what we use as the word "Piti" is usually a compound word. In the standard Jhana leadup, is is usually "Pitimanassa" which translates to "Piti of the mind" and it is universally described as a mental phenomenon "due to seclusion" and not "due to Jhana". Nobody denies that there are good (also bodily) feelings in Jhana. What I question here is the _role_ of that pleasure. If you start with the assumption that Jhana meditation is something you do every day and you always have to "re-enter" Jhana, that would have a very different effect as if you would interpret Jhana as a state you basically enter _once_ (or a very small number of times) and then abide therein for possibly your whole life. Especially in the latter case: yes, initially there is relief, joy, ease, tranquility... but the more time you spend in that state, the more it transforms in to a superior sense of wellbeing and safety. And that is what Jhana is - the Buddha called the Jhanas either "liberations (from something oppressive)" or "the imperturbable". None of those or any of the descriptions imply a cushion-bound state of that degree of temporariliness that is usually assumed nowadays. The Buddha even explicitly said that _everything_ feels "divine" with a mind in Jhana and went on describing how his walking, sleeping, rough robes, coarse food etc. all felt divine.

@emperorpalpatine9841

Ай бұрын

Thank you for your replies, your ideas sound very similar to Bhikku Nyanamoli’s from the Hillside Hermitage. I don’t understand the point about piti being mental and not physical. MN119 seems to be talking about a sensation that spreads throughout the body. It seems to be something that is a characteristic of jhana rather than something that is caused by jhana. I always thought it’s called called a blameless pleasure and temporary liberation because it isn’t a result of sensuality, but rather by giving it up. It might be a difference of entering jhana and mastering jhana. I do agree you need all the factors you describe to master jhana. But even if you master jhana you can’t stay in it your whole life it seems. In second jhana thinking stops, but if you want to speak you need to be able to think before you speak (for example). There’s a sutta that says jhana comes easy after stream entry, but there’s nowhere in the suttas that says you can’t attain jhana without it. There are many examples of non-Buddhists attaining jhanas in the suttas (especially the formless attainments) and the Buddha doesn’t say they have wrong samadhi, but instead tells them they should give up clinging to the state. Hence why many non-Buddhists like Bahiya can immediately become arahants as well. Their view was right all the way to reach close to the end, but then they got stuck there.

@TheDhammaHub

Ай бұрын

@@emperorpalpatine9841 I guess I can and should be a bit more precise! What we aim for is a freedom from the _hindrances_ that otherwise weaken wisdom. Once you are free from them, it is experienced exactly as the Suttas describe. You feel safe and free fro the first time in your life and that is profound. in a sense, you have escaped death or at least found out how to escape it. It is like freedom from debt, getting well after a long disease, freedom from slavery, bondage, freedom from uncertainty. This "relief" from something oppressive is what Piti is like according to the Suttas. A profound sense of freedom. Based on that, the mind reacts in a rather natural way by becoming joyful, at ease, calm and later just "healthy". All of those are also felt "bodily" to a degree but the origin is the mind! it is not a please of the flesh/body, it is a blameless pleasure that also has bodily "symptoms" so to speak that get fewer and fewer the more accustomed you get to those states. As you might imagine, the joy of knowing how to escape death cannot be maintained for all eternity. But you can remember it from time to time! What I described thus far is _just_ the freedom from the 5 hindrances. In _addition_ to that, your mind may also enter Jhana when you are _further_ sufficiently secluded (physically and mentally and socially). Based on being "not busy" with something else, this Right View of yours will come to the forth and you will _remember_ your freedom and can "delight" in that freedom and you will experience how much more profound and safe it is compared to sensuality. But you are right. While the freedom from the 5 hindrances is quasi-permanent, the Jhana is "not" in the sense that you have to emerge from it for speaking and other physical activities. Yet, as soon as those are over, you will immediately "re-enter" that state. For this, _no cushion_ or anything special is required. Your mind naturally inclines toward that state no matter in what posture you are or for how long. A Jhana that you "enter and leave" based on a meditation technique is no Samma Samadhi. And concerning Jhana without the Right View: I have said many times and in many videos that it is _technically possible_ to attain a Jhana without Stream Entry. It is just that it is highly unlikely. If you had even remote-access to the Buddha Dhamma in the form of a few sentences from a Noble One, you will immediately understand the Dhamma (and thus attain the Right View) LONG BEFORE you come even close to a full Jhana! So for anyone to first get to Jhana and then attain the Right View, you would have to basically live in a gated community^^ The point is, that you could compare a mind in Jhana with a lake that is perfectly still and crystal clear. The objective of understanding/seeing the Dhamma would be to spot a specific fish in the waters. If the water is muddy, you won't see anything at all no matter how hard you try. Through your unskillful actions, you make it muddy again and again. Based on clear water (no greed, aversion, and delusion) however, If someone were to explain to you what to look for, you would need half a sentence to see the fish in such a crystal clear pond. Not only that, chances are good that you will be able to spot the fish even if the water is still quite muddy (which would be a mind that is trained to some degree but not Jhana level yet)! So while it is technically possible, chances are (I cant give you real number) very very very high that you simply attain the Right View _first_ ! Back in the day it was simply not like that as the right instructions/Dhamma were not that widely available. Otherwise people would have attained the Right View (that marks the _beginning_ of the Path) first too! What the non-Buddhists were missing were the _teachings special to the Buddha_ - the teachings on dependent origination! They had trained their minds already to a degree that they were like a crystal clear pond. They just did not yet know what to look for in there. But if it is really that clear and calm, all you need is half a sentence and would immediately become an Arahant.