I think GW handles REND completely wrong. Instead of adding an extra d6 to the combat it should let you roll an extra die and drop the lowest roll. . Then you can add CAF on a case to case basis to balance out the units.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Or that. Anything but a flat extra dice!

@neilkirkley1500

7 ай бұрын

It might be that the rule is meant to say and drop the lowest after adding an extra dice, maybe it'll get amended/corrected

@el-cee

7 ай бұрын

I agree, adding a die is a horrible choice, no matter the faction. Also I am one of the people, that don't understand, how auxilia have better fighters, than Astartes.

100% appreciate your take on Legions Imperalis. Since GW will likely ignore the bad game design choices, I hope the community eventually comes up with a “community FAQ” for more fun LI games with your mates, outside of tournaments.

Good stuff as usual, no plans to run Solar Aux but good to understand your foe…

Just what I’ve been waiting for! Once I finally manage to get the infantry primed in this time of year, I might even be able to take your advice, hah.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

I managed to rattlecan my bases on the one day it was 7c, but otherwise im relegated to 100% airbrush

Solid advice, thanks! Looking forward to building and painting countless baseline humans and tanks over the Christmas break. Very useful to know how the infantry might be used. Do you feel a bit like the game is... small (unironically) at the moment? With so few units in the main rulebook, even though we know there are a huge number yet to be released, and many more yet to be revealed... Feels like it's tough to plan actual armies. I'm not going to buy and paint a footslogging army of Solar Auxilia knowing that the Dracosan is coming, equally we can't even buy boxes of Leman Russ and Malcadors yet... so it's a bit rough trying to make any sort of proper army! I guess we're just in the very early days so it is what it is.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Yeh, my biggest fear for the game is the excitement disappears before gw’s useless release schedule catches up, as happened to heresy. That said, right now i think 1k or 1500 is a fine game size - and then transports or more tanks add width and also help you expand towards 3k but you wont have many extra inf to paint if you dont want to. I dont mind waiting personally as im too busy to smash out a whole army right now anyway!

@scrambles12345

7 ай бұрын

@@Hearesy Have you got a speculative view on what you might do differently for Solar Auxilia infantry formations if they added Dracosans and Aurox as transport options? What if... there was a Stormlord? Might be a fun topic for a short video - speculation on how some known units from 28mm might offer new ways to play existing formations.

@CatCraine

4 ай бұрын

I agree on the question of selection. It seems you ought to buy the starter box twice just to get a decent force for either side. The scale is an absolute joy to paint, but man am I worried about taking the plunge.

If they do adjust Rend, I think knights and Titan weapons that have it need to be adjusted as well. Rend feels like the only reason to take melee weapon options on many of them. Otherwise they get overwhelmed in melee way to easily. Maybe some sort of rule that I’d a rend weapon on a scale 4-5 model keeps the extra dice. Or possibly tie it into the wrecker keyword. If a model has rend and wrecker it gets to keep the extra die. The last option would just be to give those weapon options an addition CAF bonus, but that involves errata to roughly a dozen weapons vs one rule. It does allow for a bit more granularity though.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Agree that the ideal answer to this issue is a rend scale that is much bigger inatead of trying to differentiate marines by 1 point of CAF each and having knights and titans just a few points higher. Sigh, how easy this could have been

Flamers might be decent now that we got Dracosans, since as far as i can tell you can disembark when a transport Marches...for some reason....but i still think theyre best as just "extra bodies" since you cannot avoid buying them, might as well use them.

So what about if you charge you get a reroll but if you didnt charge you get +2 caf and also the whole rend keyword doent take in effect the of knights with rend and +8 caf

I’m still doing another masters, I’ll be done in December, but I bought a bunch of SA to build into an army because I think everyone will play marines. I have no time to build everything but I appreciate your thoughts. It sounds like SA assault options are great but their transport options aren’t good, so maybe that was meant to balance marines’ transport capacity? Maybe they wanted this to be an army that relies on good positioning to achieve good combat results? Thanks for your thoughts, I got a mishmash of SA kits from Amazon to build up assuming there are local players here in the DC area.

Looking at the box contents I'm trying out tomorrow a formation with command and two units of eight (4 lasrifle, 2 flamer & 2 ogyrn), with a four stand storm unit - and two such formations (one with the lesser commander). figure slightly harder to kill than four stands, reasonably flexible and makes the Ogryn harder to pick off. then a unit of two sentinels plus cheap, 205 or 199 depending on the command, plan is rear area guards, flank advance detachments, the sentinels are there to boost the break point and hide out of sight in the rear, maybe overwatch deep strike stuff then get the heck out of the way but it uses the box contents quite nicely, a few more points and the sentinels become units of four (or a unit of eight), and while they can run some seriously large units you are then spending a lot of real world beer tokens to do it I think these guys really need to have more detachments than whatever they are facing, but I also think they will become like stepping on ants. circa 400 points providing two formations, each with four detachments seems ok

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Sounds sensible to me!

Very helpful again I agree re: rend. Even on the World Eaters I think it's disproportionate. I don't care if the points are balanced, it just seems so out of scale.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Agree. Even if you argue it is balanced (i dont think it is though), it definitely doesnt feel right

@tompayne4945

6 ай бұрын

I disagree with your rend take. These units are elite Auxilia with full squads of power weapons and no guns. If you're throwing average all-rounder Marines into them that's on you. The only exception is that Terminators should also have rend. I'm also of the opinion that invulnerables should be taken in CQC as well. That would help marine HQs and specialist units going forward. Justy opinions though and the game will need to mature a little before it becomes clear how balanced things are really.

Has the rend really been that dominating in your games? Been really good for us so far, leviathan are a nightmare. But it's still swingy and 3.5 difference while big hasn't meant that titans with +12 CAF. Outnumbering catches up rend really fast as well, a knight with rend charging a big unit of the worst units ends up losing by the end.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Its been less of a problem on knights as the rend in comparison to their CAF, plus theyre only one model, means less. But in large units of auxilia its just been silly. I mean dice will be dice, but 12 stands of ogryns pretty much kills anything and everything with plenty to spare. They just casually assault even/large enemy detachments out of buildings etc. The comment about titans was after a game where 2 ogryn stands made it into combat with a warhound and killed it, haha. They win even on bad dice, which is mental.

Ogryns are priority targets to be eliminated in every game.

Is Rend as much of a mistake as Auspex Scanner Intercept spam in 30k?

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

I like auspex *shrug*

@wulfbak

7 ай бұрын

@@Hearesy Maybe if shooting reactions weren't at full ballistic skill. Makes them rather OP.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

@@wulfbak im not a fan of all-or-nothing rules like deepstrike, as they result in too many non-games, so personally I prefer that there’s a common counter for it!

@wulfbak

7 ай бұрын

@@Hearesy I think that during playtesting they found that charge on deep strike led to deep strike being way too powerful. Thus, very generous intercept options

@jeremyjones3720

7 ай бұрын

​@@wulfbakbut I can just run a master of signals to mess up your deep stroke tbh

Rend: make this so the model with Rend wins the combat on a drawn result

On the Ogryns, I suspect they're not Bulky because Solar Aux are likely not getting Assault Transports or Large Transports. Transports have to be Assault, Large, or Large Assault to transport Bulky units. But Assault Transport would let them charge out, and Large transport can carry Walkers - neither of which the Solar Aux transports are generally capable of doing. The Transport rules are honestly sorta criminally inflexible.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Could be! If we follow other game lore and rules though, none of those transports should be moving Ogryns around effectively. Theyre so incredibly cost efficient that they *should* have that drawback imho.

@Miniwargaming101

7 ай бұрын

@Hearesy The argument I heard previously is that there's just two Ogryns on the stand. So if we extrapolate from AoD, they're taking up 6 slots in any transport. Not much off the 5 slots that 5 infantry from one stand would. The transports aren't carrying many more Ogryn than they should. And I think the downside of just not having Assault Transports will be reasonable enough. We shall see.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

@Miniwargaming101 fair point I guess!

@edleech6072

7 ай бұрын

In the flip side, 2 ogryn should not easily beat everything in combat. 5 terminators or a Praetor command squad vs 2 Ogryn. Is a joke. Agreed, Remd is far too powerful and ruins the immersion with the units they chose to give it too. They were clearly trying to create a difference between marines and guard, but went about it in the wrong way.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

@@edleech6072 also a great point!

Still trying to work out why Contemptors don't get Rend when they have a chunky great big power fist (this might help differentiate in future if we get a kit that allows for two gun arms). On the whole I agree the Rend rules seems dumb as is.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Balance, probably. That fist is +5 CAF which would be super impressive… if rend didnt exist. Contemptors are brilliant though nontheless!

@jamesjrh84

7 ай бұрын

@@Hearesy but then Leviathans have the same CAF and Rend for barely any points more so . . . .

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

@jamesjrh84 theyre also great, and also for wrecker, but the accurate lascannon is awesome too. Im going to run both!

Rend definitely needs to change, and I feel like Terminators should also get it in whatever form it takes... If some dudes with power axes or ogryns with drill hands can easily overwhelm the most powerful infantry unit deployed by mankind short of custodes... Something is going seriously wrong

@BroadHobbyProjects

7 ай бұрын

The Charnoite Ogryns have crazy stats rules in 32mm 30k tbh. Str & T 5, 3A with Ap3, rend and +1str wot their attacks. If 3 of them got into base contact with say 20 Astartes they'd be to likely kill 5 or 6 on the turn they charge. But I do feel Astartes in Legions Imperialis feel a little too cheap & chaff like for being armoured super humans. I think being to have armour saves in combat for infantry would be more realistic too. This would help Astartes a little more.

@commissarmartin

7 ай бұрын

@@BroadHobbyProjects thing is though that it doesn't matter about them being on the charge or not here, they just can't realistically be beaten in combat

@BroadHobbyProjects

7 ай бұрын

@@commissarmartin Oh I agree. Ogryns in Legions Imperialis are insanely powerful. Mainly due to the broken rend rule currently.

Is it just me, or does the Ogryn stat line seem perfectly suited (thematically speaking) to Genestealers? I don’t think anyone would bat an eye if this were the case..

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Id say +1 CAF furious charge rend would be bloody good, and still beat terminators on average (especially on the charge). The fact that Ogryns and Veletarii stack up so many bonuses is egregious!

@henryrodriguez6260

7 ай бұрын

@@Hearesy I wholly agree with you that it offends all sensibilities. But perhaps I was not clear... the situation is mostly offensive because we cannot accept, given the lore, that Terminators would be at a disadvantage versus normal Humans or Ogryns. However, if a different enemy had this egregious stat line (e.g. Genestealers), it would be easier to accept as it would mesh with the lore.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

Agree!

I agree with a lot of your analysis but I feel that since as upgrades Veletarii / Ogryns "gain" the chain of command rule it kind of justifies a lower price. If you are out og HQ range then it means they cannot charge which is huge for them. Large mixed units of tercios + 4-6 veletarii / Ogryns beg to have an HQ unit attached for this reason which also ups the cost of the unit.

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

I operate under the assumption that if youre running your “main” inf detachments as maxed out units theyre going to have a hq built in with them, certainly thats how Ive run them so far, and there’s always the option of using them “independent” in any case. I dont think it’s really a big deal in my experience, but youre right it is a drawback if you dont run them like that!

@JC-nt4yt

7 ай бұрын

I see, it does make sense. How many HQ would you run at 1500pts? @@Hearesy

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

@@JC-nt4yt Probably 2 in most lists from my listbuilding. Iron Hands I’d try to run 3 though.

@FarseerB1rdy

3 ай бұрын

That's not true. Read the Chain of Command rule in Page 178. You've probably figured this out 3 months down the line.

@FarseerB1rdy

3 ай бұрын

@JC-nt4yt

So 3 months down the line and... Rend really isn't a problem at all. Solar aren't stomping tournaments with mass Rend because... They die to a stiff breeze. I play as Solar and getting those Ogryns and Veletarii into combat isn't that easy vs a semi competent opponent (I.e most folks). I even use Pioneer Formations and it still isn't cut and dry now more folks have realised using PD sponsons actually makes sense instead of just Lascannon spam. Arvus and Dracosan aren't assault transports either so no easy way to get those long range 1st turn charges off.

@Hearesy

3 ай бұрын

Rend is every bit as bad as when i filmed the video. As I talked about in the video, Ogryns themselves arent necessarily brokrn for the reasons you outlined; but they are still too good for their points, and rend is still dumb. Also there is literally 0 tournament data for this game of import. People arent playing “serious”. If you do play serious - Ogryns punch pretty far above their weight!

@FarseerB1rdy

3 ай бұрын

@@Hearesy Fixed charge ranges = easy to dodge, 6+ armour save, 5" move etc etc. I could go. I've played well over 30+ games with my Solar and Ogryns give you a semblance of chance in combat when the rest of your guys get wrecked - and rightly so, but sometimes rules like this are for a little bit of balance. I Are you wrecking every game? How many games have you used them with? Have they completely dominated games? I can tell you they don't. At all. Plenty of tournaments have gone off around here in the Midlands, they aren't so competitive of course but you won't be seeing masses of Ogryns winning anything.

Transport options are a big enough deal that, right now, space marines are stomping all over SA. That said, with the way skyfire and overwatch works, SA essentially own the sky if they invest in it, so aerial assault is actually bad into them. Legit, flyers shouldn't have overwatch. And they need to faq skyfire overwatch too because they forgot to make it a minus 1 (verse minus 2) in overwatch only against flyers and not everything.

@OfDreamsAndMagic

7 ай бұрын

How are flyers over watching ? They all have to be removed end of turn and given an order , and they move onto the board when you activate them. By activating them they have started to use their order so cannot sacrifice it to overwatch ?

@Hearesy

7 ай бұрын

They move with an advance order, and then overwatch when something moves within range. Orders arent removed in the movement step. Rhinos are great, but marines definitely dont stomp all over SA. assuming reasonable armies, theyre pretty balanced forces. SA have way more broken spam potential than marines!

@EAfirstlast

7 ай бұрын

Marines generally, by dint of speed, get all over the objective and by the time you clear them out, their points lead is too high. SA do kill faster than marines, but not fast enough to win. @@Hearesy

Vanquishers should have just hade a dual weapons profile. The one it has but without armourbane and an aditional one where it gets armourbane if its within 18" And i semi agre about rend. I dont mind it existing but it should only be on units that has a unit size of 1 model like knights and things like that to help them from getting swarmed (or in very rare and special cases on units). And then have an aditional rule called say "power weapon" that lets you role 3dice pick two that are on units with multiple models like the ogryns for example.