Pursue your own interests in conflict, and don't pretend to be fighting or negotiating when in fact you are simply harming your own interests. This is the most basic and core life philosophy of how to face conflicts and practice one's own will in a world with two or more free wills and other external environments. True peace is the balance of conflict: continuous struggle and negotiation, not pretending that conflict does not exist while shouting peace

Great Workshop! Thank you!

Interesting presentation, thank you. I dont disagree with much that was said here, just some food for thought: Since climate change is a systemic problem, rooted very much in complex global economic and political structures, whats the point of mobilising a bunch of people with appeals to emotions when you truly believe that you could never convince anyone through rational argument? Speaking for myself, i was very much convinced by rational argumentation and empirical evidence, as i asume the vast majority of activists was at some point in their lives. I know many intelligent people that consider themselfes rational, that commit to either hopless nihilsm or the toxic ideology spread by the global oligarchy through powerful institutions, simply because they had not enough exposure to different points of view. And even if they were, that sort of thing is always going to be a process that will take time. Changing your mind is painful, admitting to yourself that you might not be as rational as you thought even more so. I think it is very important to always be armed with good arguments and data and to have those ready at all times. maybe put some charts on your phone to show to people in one of those awful arguments you have everytime you speak up to a person repeating corporate propaganda. The oligarchy has limitless recources, has had a monopoly on public discourse since at least the french revolution, has activly infiltrated schools and universities since the 70s, controlls the mass media, and what militarys do, and now mostly controlls the internet as well...... i could go on. The progressive left has the truth, thats it. People are not sheep, don't treat them as such. If the left refuses to do everything in its power to educate people and arm them with good rational ideas, any revolution will ultimatly lead to tyranny as history has shown too many times. Dont just argue or disrupt but also suggest materials, books and videos. Give people space to make up their own minds. Show them the underlying complexity. Thats what Chomsky does. In my experience most people convinced by false propaganda truly believe in simple answers. They learned those in shool after all. Who will teach them different if not you?

please set your sound levels a bit louder!

@DiEM25official

11 ай бұрын

Hi Mark, this issue will be fixed in the upcoming workshops. Sorry about that.

Aha, I know the guy on the cover.

In regards to what Michele is saying. The problem that I see is that when people think that "the activists are stupid", they are saying this due to an emotional reaction to the disruption the activists bring which is directly affecting the people negatively (for example, blocking the street when they are in a hurry reaching someplace) which in turn radicalize them and prevents them from ever sympathizing with the cause. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think that this is the right approach. People will become vindicative and will want to see the activists hurt. I surely hope it doesn't come to this. If we want to bring disruption and we want to have the kind of impact in which people are saying "yeah they are stupid but they are right" then we have to not directly affect the general population in a negative way. You do still want to be very visible but when you do affect the general population, you should do it in a less negative way. A possible solution might be to organize spontaneous theatrical acts on the street depicting the harm pollution or corporation do to people. Like when you have musicians on street corners playing an instrument. Also, my understanding is that we are trying to play the victim card as a strategy. The thing is that we are not the only victims in here, the general population is a victim of capitalism as well. Why not creating a bond instead of staging them into being aggressive towards us such that we could use this to make ourselves the victims? I see this strategy a bit toxic and overly complicated and misleading. We should be more straightforward and easy to understand, we should not victimize on people's expanse, we are already all victims of the corporate state. My point is that with radicalization we will lose trust. Decent people will not want to take part in this. For me DiEM25 is about morality, the way you describe the process goes into toxicity. I hope more rational people will intervene and not let this movement go astray because you could very well sabotage DiEM25 with those tactics. I want DiEM25 to succeed.

@spring9603

11 ай бұрын

This is what I'm talking about: kzread.info/dash/bejne/d4V8mLyDc8mbYM4.html This is not going to work ... in the end people will rally against the activists. We have to bond with the people and our actions should antagonize the corporate state not the average people. People are our allays.

@gallectee6032

11 ай бұрын

These people have been engineered by the special interests into being ferociously anti environmental and social programs, and already hate the activists and want to see them hurt. You can kiss their toes instead, they won't care. What the activists are doing is called direct action and it has a ton of research and evidence behind it.

@spring9603

11 ай бұрын

Yes, I can see this happening and it's surely in the realm of possibility but still, I think we should bond with people. They may fight the rest of the battle along us in the long term and become activists themselves.

@huveja9799

11 ай бұрын

I guess the worst problem is the attitude behind the whole process they pose, which from my perspective can be summarized as "people are stupid and don't know what's good for them, but we do know what's best for everyone, so let's impose it on society." There is an article by Nassim Taleb, which you can find online with the following title: "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority". It impeccably sums up my main objection with professional "activism"; it ends up being a tool of imposition and control that no one chose, they "self-elected" for that role, without transparency or accountability. Almost the same could be said about political parties, but at least "we all agreed" on the mechanism, and there is some transparency and accountability.

@gallectee6032

11 ай бұрын

@@huveja9799 It's about bringing attention to the issue, rather than disparaging people. It's a way to bring pressure, and as you pointed out yourself with Taleb's article, it is effective. Otherwise there would be no such complaint.

This whole process is exactly the same as the following process: I have a product that I want to sell, but I run into a big problem, the vast majority are not interested in the product, either because they don't know it, or because they don't care or because it seems decidedly bad to them. But I'm not interested in what the vast majority thinks, I know positively that they are malleable sheep, and that most of the good things they have is because someone at some point forced those things down their throats. For that reason, I am absolutely convinced that I have every right in the world to do the same, force my product down their throats, because I know perfectly well, that later, they will thank me. Now some questions that I ask you: 1. In all that process, no one questions what are your personal reasons for selling that product in the first instance, no one questions if you have tested that product for a lifetime to know its effects, no one questions what the effects would be if everyone uses that product, no one questions what you are going to do with all the power and influence accumulated once you managed to sell that product to the entire population, nor, of course, no one questions what is the morality of the whole process itself. Why should we think badly of the capitalists but not of you who resort to exactly the same methods of manipulation and imposition? 2. What is disturbing in a non violent way? It seemed to me that disturbing, by its very definition, is a form of violence, am I wrong? 3. In your example, about 100 and something people constantly disrupting the roads, and then the government "gives in easily" and billions are invested. Besides questioning the priority of that investment (maybe those billions were more beneficial to invest in another way, but we'll never know, because someone already decided for me that that was the best way), I also question the "ease" with which the government gave in, since the exact opposite happened with the "Freedom Convoy" of the truckers of Canada, who were protesting against the COVID measures (which, we now know, were excessive and harmful). Those truckers and their allies ended up with their accounts frozen and in jail. It strikes me that the first case was successful and the second was not. Could it be that in the first case there was no real opposition? That is, they already had the sympathies of the press and, on the other hand, did that suit the government?

@buzzhawk

11 ай бұрын

Those truckers were there to pull a coup, in the same way Jan. 6th Trumpanzee goons tried.

@TheChromanoise

11 ай бұрын

Too long. Didn’t read.

@huveja9799

11 ай бұрын

@@TheChromanoise I don't think you're gonna need to read it ;)

@tommasoug2995

11 ай бұрын

1) Why should we think badly of the capitalists but not of you who resort to exactly the same methods of manipulation and imposition? Because none of us is doing this in a frame of personal gain. No one has the idea of becoming the next king or anything else, but to do anything nonviolently possible to avoid the worst outcome. 2) What is disturbing in a non violent way? It seemed to me that disturbing, by its very definition, is a form of violence, am I wrong? Let's say someone with a serious injury next to you start to scream for help, isn't that disturbing? What if that person is screaming for their rights? What if that person is screaming "someone please stop this bloody machine!" Isn't that annoying? Is there a way to comunicate anything that does not go trough violence? Isn't my existence violence in front of others? Am i not hell for others? (This is just to say CMON move on from this mental empasses) 3) All the different exaples have their history, their context, and can be studied with different gains. Truckers against Canada was an hard struggle and we should talk more about that.

@huveja9799

11 ай бұрын

@@tommasoug2995 Regarding (1), your answer is; I resort to the same methods of manipulation and imposition of the capitalists, but, but, you have to trust me, I am one of the good guys. That belongs to the same fairy tale where the fairy godmother appears saying we must to "believe all women". Of course! .. Regarding (2), your example, I would say, is a bit short sighted, if I am with a knife, I slip, I fall and by falling unfortunately I hurt you, I suspect that would not be considered violence. I suspect that besides the action what counts is the intention behind of the disturbing action, when I've the intention to disturb, wouldn't it be violence? there's an interesting word that comes to mind, harassment .. Regarding (3), of course every story has its context, just as society has its context, and each of the different facets, perspectives and problems of society have their context, which in turn are linked to each other in unexpected ways. But you tell me that you are perfectly capable of manipulating and imposing your particular solution, because you understand all that complexity and how what you intend to implement is going to have an impact in the future. Of course! ..

Don’t waste your time with climatic-Narrative, clima will always be,you have only one life.

@mitu5492

11 ай бұрын

Don't waste your time spreading denial of the climate crisis online, do something about it instead AND live your life. Besides, a lot of people are already not able to enjoy their live anymore because of the climate crisis, so for them there is no way around it, for a lot of other people neither in the near future.

@lawitch

11 ай бұрын

@@mitu5492 you are a dreamer most of the people don’t give a f*ck about climate. You are a few ones going crazy about climate. Just enjoy your life you have only one. Climate will always exist,you will exist only a few years. Don’t be a Climate-Dreamer be brave an live your own life.

@cheri238

11 ай бұрын

​​@Mitu Each human being matters. ❤ All nature of plant life, jungles, wildlife, our oceans, seas, corals, aquatic life. This earth belongs to we. I grew up in Alabama, and I was a young child and I saw many things. Thank you, Dr. Martin Luther KingJr and all the organizers that stood with him through those years. America history on all sides and world histories. Futhernore ,Ghandi and the great Russian writer Tolstoy exchanged letters. Ghandi was an amazing man. Thank you Michele Giuili and DiEMERS for doing your homework, having knowledge and with your understanding of how getting people involved and organized with what people have to stand for for the betterment of humanity. Many in America are trying, and it is not easy for there are divisons that have to come together. It is governments of greedy powers, unnecessary wars for profits, corporations, real estate, Blackstone, Nato, The international monetary fund, the World Bank, WallStreet, oil gas, minerals gold ,diamonds lithium today is in demand . One can not eat gold or paper money as many families are running in fears because of wars in all directions because of insane politics. Crooked poltiticans on all sides, k- street lobbying. America is a Republic with Democratic ideals. Capitalism rules now and oligarchy. Capitalism will pit race against race and religion against religion, as it takes away its public education from the mouths of its children and health care and infrastructure, as the pickpockets take it all at the top for the last 40 years this time. America now has an inverted Tolertarism due to greed. We are all walking in seas of madness, all societies are being affected and traumatized. An endless march must move forward. America has had its own problems starting from its creation and there has been many marches for the changes that needed to be made. May the torch bearers move forth with integrity and with insights who did this before us. With the deepest appreciation and respect for all those in this panel. Finally, this is a story centuries old, philosophy, languages and cultures traveling some 4000 years before Christ. The Gilgamesh Epic. Socrates never wrote anything down, Plato taught Aristole and Aristole taught Alexander the Great. Heraclitus was my favorite philosopher, he stated " One cannot step in the same waters twice." ❤

@mariettestabel275

11 ай бұрын

@@lawitch Think again ! There are others after you. 🌎

@lawitch

11 ай бұрын

@@mariettestabel275 don’t waste your time with political agendas like climate! You have only one live. After you others will come and the climate will be still there. Climate is immoral but human are mortal.

You discuss “civil disobedience” and “the extinction of the human race,” and yet, ignore the obvious “civil disobedience” of your own race that has capitalized from you all in its plan to abandon you all when it “lifts off” to space.