Nice vid. Here's my two cents: - Missable achievements are fine if the game encourages you to do separate playthroughs for a specific reason. For example, Infamous/Infamous 2 with the good vs evil path, there's essentially a separate achievement list for each, so this would be considered "missable". However, the game essentially puts you on Track A or Track B, where each track's achievements aren't missable within that track. You're supposed to do two playthroughs in the Infamous games, one on each track. Pentiment also has this and it's great. The worst are missable achievements that are missable for no reason (i.e. you didn't find the one random item in one specific level, and have to replay the entire game to get it). They just add stress to the initial playthrough. - DLC achievements would be better if Steam was able to differentiate. Feeling like I'm forced to boot up Terraria, a game I've played to death, because they added new achievements is a bit annoying. - I like that you differentiated Completionist and Grind. Completionist achievements are great because they encourage the player to do everything the game has to offer. Grind achievements most of the time are annoying and pointless (i.e. Doom Eternal multiplayer) - I generally find that if I enjoy the game itself, I'll enjoy the achievement list, although there have definitely been instances where I do like a game and hate the achievement list. Hollow Knight is an example of this. - Skill achievements are too rare these days. Crash 4 is a great list because it's so skill based, and I'd argue that skill achievements are the only achievements that actually provide "bragging rights". - Multiplayer achievements are fine if the game's primarily based around multiplayer. Some of the best achievement lists I've worked on have been in multiplayer games, such as Battlefield Bad Company 2 and Overwatch. Games that have annoying multiplayer or are primarily single player, with multiplayer achievements, are the worst. Doom Eternal *cough cough*.

@tin_sensei

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed the vid! Share it if you can so I can grow! Loved your writeup and I agree about the missables split into 2 playthroughs being ok. The witcher 2 just annoyed me cause it did have a lot of that annoying missable type you mention (off the top of my head, theres one where you have to craft a specific trap and cut off the act one boss’s tentacle with it. Idk how people are meant to get that without a guide!) Thanks for watching!

your tier list is exactly how i would’ve done it, i wish that all game developers could see this because the two you pointed out are definitely the best

I've never thought about how achievements make me go out of my comfort zones in games and truly experiment. Whenever there is a game without achievements I usually just B-line the story and ignore everything else. Awesome video btw.

My favorite achievement is The Secret of the World from One Way Heroics. A game where you're certain you've got it figured out and then you come across one particular item and think "wouldn't it be funny if I...?" then you do and you realize just how limited your perspective has been this whole time. I still feel great looking back at that one.

Very well put. An example I ran into; I got "WHAT THE GOLF" on Steam a while back and ran into some of these types of achievements. It has achievements from categories 6, 9, and 10 (and 8 due to a bug) which turned a silly little golf game into a chore I have to constantly watch, and this seriously reduced my enjoyment of it. I'd also say that 4, 5 and 7 can easily turn into 6 if devs aren't careful; some games completely change how they're meant to be played or give you such lofty goals for skill (like DBFZ's Power Level achievement) or collectibles (like BotW's Korok Seeds) that the grind to do it overshadows everything else.

This is actually really helpful to me as a Hobby-Gamedev :D Really nice Video, well done!

Glad im not the only one who feels like that about dlc achievements, ive watched my "perfect games" number go down and then i have to search for what game got some new update. i think having multiple new ribbons is a fantastic idea. hope valve takes care of us achievement hunters one day

Great video! Bonus category that I don’t know how else to categorize, and I don’t think really fits into any other (even if on paper it seems to fit into ‘grind’) I’ll call this the ‘F#*% you’ category, and I have two distinct examples from TF2. First, the grind to kill 1,000,000 robots. WeezyTF2 has done an entire video about how awful this grind actually is. The analysis and stats he gives at the end are wild. Should you check it out, please be aware that those stats are assuming extremely optimized conditions, to the point of incredible boredom. Second, the four achievements for reaching a certain number of KZread views on one video produced with the in-game replay editor. Not only is that an absurd requirement, it’s also become literally impossible to unlock (without cheating) because “KZread has deprecated the application programming interface (API) that the game uses.” -credit to the Team Fortress wiki I wish there was a way I could see reliable stats on how many people have legitimately achieved these, but the number of people who used cheating tools to unlock them appears to make that next to impossible.

I like how on PlayStation when dlc adds achievements they're typically in their own section and not part of the main achievements

Back on the Xbox 360, there was a game called "Chromehounds" which I loved very much. I'd gotten all but 5 achievements and the servers got turned off many years ago. After I lost my old account, I started a new one in 2021 with a renewed interest in the console and many more titles to play due to having an Income. Unfortunately for me, although I've beaten my old gamerscore, I'm only able to get the Achievements from CH's "Tutorial Campaign" and it really pains me that it basically says "this guy missed this much gamerscore" instead of "earned 100% of what is currently possible to earn". With that in mind, I'd like games to have their achievements segregated as "Single Player", "Multiplayer" (that would include both online and local Co-Op achievements) and "Legacy" which be anything a player achieved before the time limit expired or the servers got turned off. You could also display the total number of achievements or gamerscore as 48/25 (but not with percentages) and give players the option to hide any category of achievements from themselves if it irks them.

It's weird to think back when I was gaming, achievements weren't really as important as the story and the gameplay itself. I was always the one afraid to experiment because I would break not only the game, but also the console as well as the computer (akin to getting computer virus's on the computer). So for many years I didn't really care about achievements as I was used to more completing missions. But as time went on, I found achievements to be more of an "Out of the way, get it done as soon as possible" type of thing.

I would add one category to the achievement types: - Alternate game modes: achievements that require playing a secondary game mode to receive them. A good example are the multiplayer achievements in Doom 2016. I have no desire to grind the probably dead multiplayer just to increase my achievement percentage.

I think the main problem with the tubular achievement for outer wilds EotE is the (completely arbitrary) 15 second time goal. If it had instead been only say 10 seconds it would reduce the effect of randomness on whether a player gets it, mean only a few attempts are required so the waiting and ginding wouldn't matter as much, and remove the need to look up and prepare a precise setup just to get a chance at attempting it. Doing this also keeps the spirit of the achievement - that you're surfing on the wave - and would make it actually pretty enjoyable to hunt (or even get by accident if you are extremely lucky)

My favorite "Grind" achievement is easily the one in LOTR: Conquest where you have to kill 300 hobbits in the Hobbiton level. I probably spent an hour just rampaging, I thought it was hilarious and actually still pretty fun, it didn't really get tedious until the very end. That is to say, if you're gunna have a grind achievement, make the thing you're grinding fun.

*sees thumbnail* damn I hated that gnome, especially in the car segments.

Grind Achievements are completely pointless. If a developer wants to have one they should just tone it down significantly example: L4D2 kill 52k common zombies -> kill 1000 common zombies. It's really sad how you can be gatekept from 100% by achievements like paid DLC example gunfire reborn achievements are very tame and fun to do but there are multiple DLC's locking you away from 100%. Hell there is one for completing the base game. I liked the video.

@benji-menji

29 күн бұрын

One way to fix grind achievements is to have a tame first tier, but as you get bigger numbers it changes by either increasing the number beyond what the achievement lists or have the achievement graphics change as you get more and more. It technically gates 100% but it makes the mega grinds less important and makes them more likely to work as they intended as alternates to play time.

@1un4cy

28 күн бұрын

Most complain about the crab achievement in gunfire and will do dozens of fire runs only to never get crab event. Seems more common on normal difficulty, and you can alt+f4 to reset from the beginning of stage 3.

limited time achievements are the worst. i remember when i was a kid i was so into littlebigplanet that i tried to 100% the trophy list. the only trophy i couldn’t get was linked to the amount of likes your levels got and i wasn’t a creative enough kid to create a viral enough level and didn’t want to resort to spamming other people’s comments to like my stuff. since then, servers have permanently gone down for the game so i can’t ever 100% that game anymore even if i wanted to. a huge bummer!

Yeah, online only achievements suck. It becomes pretty much inevitable that they will eventually become unobtainable.

****SPOILERS**** The only game I have 100% is half life Alyx. Carting the gnome all the way to the end was amazingly fun and the fact you have to hold it and can’t store it made it great but also frustrating (had to reload a few times do to grenades) Also the way I accidentally kept a bottle of vodka in storage all through Jeffs level was such a fluke lol for the bring a bottle for Russell!

Interestingly, some games like Cookie Clicker also has secret achievements, in the sense you are not expected to fulfill them; stuff like absurd grind, absurd luck, cheating, impersonating the dev, et c’...

I think your DLC opinion is fair, but I think that's easily solved by the game and DLC trophies are simply separate, i.e treat them as separate games. Let me keep my 100% in the core game, and if I want to 100% the DLC too that's great, or if not then that's fine too.

Amazing video.

Amazing!

12.52 Like GTA5 you mean? Yeah agree.

goated vid

Except that most TF2 achievements were brocken at some point of time

I 100%ed Witcher 2 and it took me 120hrs and like 6 playthroughs or something.

A big no-no for me are achievements who requires bad gameplay. For example "Die 500 times" in Castle in the Darkness. I had to die several hundreds of times after I had 100% completed the game and all its other achievements. Could be included in the "Grind" type of achievements but that's incredibly bad achievement. There are also "Finish the game in easy / normal" achievements in some games that are not earned when you finished the game in hard, requiring you additional uninteresting playthroughs if you want them...

Reporting in for vids on cheevos

The one you missed was the PURE RNG achievements. Which can fall into grinding, since you just keep going at it until the rng gives it to you, be it 1 hour later or 20. Usually hoping for multiple miracles to line up in a roguelike. And some may still require specific circumstances after getting said RNG to happen, making the rare event missable.

When a game includes DLC achievements without the DLC's being allready in the package ... it will not be bought. Screw that.

It really seems like your problems, every single one mentioned in the entire video, comes from deciding you want to get all the cheevoes. This leads you to play in a way that you don't find fun. It's hard to believe that's worthwhile, that the enjoyment from catching them all outweighs the hours where you weren't enjoying the gameplay. "I want the cheevo that says I won a thousand matches, but I don't want to even play a thousand matches". "I want the cheevo that says I got a billion kills with the plastic spoon, but I don't like using that weapon". "I want the cheevo that says I am unreasonably skilled at the game, but I have a mere mortal's skill level". "I want the cheevo that says I got to chapter 7 of the story, but I don't like the story mode of this game at all". "I want the cheevo that says I collected all the busywork items, but they're obviously just filler and feel like work to collect". "I want every cheevo that says I got one of the various mutually exclusive outcomes, but I don't want to play the game enough to get all of those". "I want to have every cheevo in the entire game, even if there are some unattainable ones, or new ones are added". There are some games where I have a lot of these cheevoes. I think there's one or two games where I'd only need one more to reach 100%, and quite a few where it's below 5 remaining. To my knowledge, I have never had 100% of the cheevoes in a game, and if I ever have then I don't care enough about that fact to remember which ones.

@tin_sensei

26 күн бұрын

Hi, thanks for watching. It's a fair perspective you've brought up here, allow me to clarify. Essentially, I do achievements because for me, it's fun to be a completionist. The struggle is necessary, because without it, you wouldn't feel that good feeling at the end when you've overcome it. So I'm not asking for them to be easy or handed to me. Some of my least favorite achievement games ARE ones like the walking dead where they just give them to you by going through the game. I'm just asking for them to be fair and respect my time. Replaying an 80 hour game, no matter how good it is, for the specific purpose of changing one choice or picking up one item, is not a reasonable use of time, in my opinion. Or during my research, there was an achievement that said something like "Be in the top 1% of the leaderboard". That doesn't feel fair, and although I welcome that kind of statistic to be rewarded, perhaps as an in game cosmetic, it doesn't belong in an achievement list, which are meant to be completed. Allow me to give an analogy. Let's say there's a new restaurant in town, and they have a bar inside. You can get anything you want on the menu, eat any food at your table, but to get a drink from the bar, you have wade through 3 foot deep mud to get it. Well, just don't get the drink then. It's optional, you don't need it for the full restaurant experience, and you get everything you paid for without it. Now let's use that same analogy, but instead of having to wade through mud to get your drink order, you have to land a ping pong ball in a glass from 10 feet away. Still optional, still takes effort, skill, and practice but much more fun and satisfying when you complete it. It's not a perfect analogy but my point is, why would developers even put it in the game in the first place if it's either unobtainable or unbearably obnoxious? Achievements can be challenging and fun at the same time. There's a certain point where it crosses over from "I'm too lazy to get it" to "This is bad, unfun game design", and that's what I'm trying to identify here. Thanks very much for watching!

@emmett4733

14 күн бұрын

⁠​⁠​⁠@@tin_senseiYou’re totally valid in wanting to be a completionist, but I feel like viewing achievements as something you MUST get is… the opposite of their original point. In fact, I think achievements were not originally meant to be 100% completed! (to clarify: I don’t think wanting to 100% the cheevos is Wrong. It’s very satisfying to get them all! I just think that wasn’t the intention when they were first introduced.) You’re interpreting them as a checklist to fill out, instead of each one just being an acknowledgement of a thing you did in a game. No matter how grindy or out of the way an achievement may seem, I am sure that almost all of them can be gotten- without knowing about or trying to get them- by at least ONE dedicated or skilled or adventurous player just Playing The Game (There definitely are cheevos made with completionist guides in mind, and it would be very unlikely for somebody to meet the requirements for those by accident, but I believe that the original intent was to discover achievements organically and not meticulously hunt for each one using a guide). In other words, I see achievements as: “Oh wow, you did a difficult/time-consuming/hard-to-reach thing? Here’s a small token of recognition that you can show your friends.” Instead of: “You want to see that 100% next to this game title, don’t you? Go do these specific things that you find extremely tedious or borderline impossible at your skill level.” That said… now that achievement hunting is a thing and it is normal for people to want to 100% complete game achievements, I think it IS completely fair for you to want developers to respect people’s time and abilities, and make achievements challenging but still possible!!

Ha hee!