The thing with gacha games is that even though technically speaking gacha is just a monetization model not a genre, its everlasting influence on gameplay is the reason why many people use this term to describe games that use it. It doesn't matter if it's TBS, action or else, gacha games always prioritize retention tactics and fomo mechanics above in-the-moment fun. People who play gacha games live in future, waiting for more content, new characters, planning their resource spending, with so-called gameplay being more like a backend to show the strength of their account since it relies on stats and characters available more than mechanical skill or strategy. I think it's fair to say that people who play gacha games (not all of them, but most) like the fact that they rely on getting new characters to keep having fun in the game, regardless of what the actual gameplay mechanics the game might have. It's no coincidence ex-GI players were praising Honkai Star Rail for being a better game, even though these aren't directly comparable in terms of actual gameplay systems - one is openworld, other isn't, one is real time action, other is pseudo-TBS, etc.. It was solely on the basis of having more QoL and being "more generous". Players usually do not play gacha games for their gameplay alone, it doesn't make much sense as traditional games had them beat in this regard. Holy yapping btw.

@SavageRodent

7 күн бұрын

I've heard GI players say they didn't care about HSR because it was turn-based, and even right now there's a lot of criticisms of ZZZ's gameplay, despite its polish and aesthetic. I think gameplay has a pretty significant impact on whether someone will play a game, gacha or not. And the comparisons between GI and HSR is like you said primarily about the developer's treatment of the games and their player bases, not their gameplay, which has more to do with both games being live service. I also cannot say for certain if the majority of HSR players are ex-GI players or not, especially since I believe a lot of other gacha games are turn-based, so HSR appeals to those player bases. The ex-GI players who did move over to HSR could simply also like turn-based combat. People can like both types of games, but if someone likes the gameplay in both games but one game has better treatment on the live service part, then of course they're going to say the one with better treatment is the better game. The fact that the games are live service sets certain expectations. And you can absolutely play gacha games for their gameplay alone. Or do people not play MMOs or other loot-based games for their gameplay? A difference between gacha games and traditional games is there's a guarantee that more content will be added to the game, while a traditional game has an end to it. A lot of the time people usually want more of what they're playing. Also, retention tactics and FOMO mechanics are not unique to gacha games, as MMOs and pretty much any live service game utilized them before gacha games were a thing. As for the reason for the majority of players playing gacha games, I currently believe gameplay impacts their decision. However my mind may get changed if ZZZ performs just as well as GI and HSR, due to the criticism the game has been getting. Also we're all fluent in yapanese.

@belugastyle480

7 күн бұрын

​@@SavageRodent I'll try to keep it brief as I don't want to turn this into a pointless debate. Screw the HSR vs GI player migration point, I concede it. HSR (and most gachas in general for that matter) has very little meaningful gameplay. People like it not only because it's turned based, but also bc it's so straightforward they can auto through - aka only engage with the combat system sparingly. HSR popularity made it pretty clear to me that the huge chunk of gacha players only care for superficial aspects of the gameplay (like character animations and voice lines that accompany the combat), comfort and an account management (which is a shared trait across all gachas). Or take GI as an example. It's an openworld where you get crumbs of a premium currency as a reward for steamrolling weak mobs instead of just getting weapons, upgrade materials or companions directly from exploring areas and farming monsters. It always comes back to gacha and stamina systems. Can people still play GI for the gameplay alone? Yes they can. But assuming they have a choice (maybe they don't have PC or console but do have a good phone, etc.) it just doesn't make much sense to look for good highly interactive gameplay in gachas of all things, as gacha system itself is always a detriment, a roadblock that didn't need to exist - unless gacha is what you like in the first place. Choosing between different equally cool looking gachas based on their gameplay traits? Sure. Never said it doesn't matter at all, people all have their preferred seasonings. But the fact they are willing to compromise from a get go and deal with the system that actively limits, dumbs down the gameplay and turns it from a source of entertainment into a habit says alot about their priorities in my opinion.

@SavageRodent

7 күн бұрын

@@belugastyle480 That's fair. I suppose every mechanic in games influence it in some way, and gacha mechanics are far from the exception. Though it's a roadblock for progression and not really a defining element of a game's gameplay. And I think the more simpler gameplay is more so due to these games being made with phones in mind. This is probably a hot take: I wouldn't say WuWa, PGR, or even GI have simpler combat than From Software's Souls games and their combat. Hell I'd say one could argue that there's more going on with their combat than the Souls games, but the bar of execution is lower due to the lack of enemy aggression (minus PGR and some of WuWa's enemies). People complain about the consecrated beasts when they pop up in GI's Abyss because now they're required to dodge and learn the enemy's attacks, while most other enemies have several, sometimes dozens of seconds of doing nothing that you either have to wait or can effortlessly go through rotation. Anyways thanks for commenting and engaging in conversation.

@belugastyle480

6 күн бұрын

@@SavageRodent You cannot really separate progression system from gameplay mechanics when said progression also includes new gameplay options though. You not only get stronger numerically but also unlock new characters, and as such get access to new teambuilding options and ability to interact with certain mechanics in new ways. Or don't, depending on your wallet and your luck. Also what I described in my GI example directly affects the exploration process. It's just not as exciting to know you will not get anything truly valuable other than some premium currency anyway, it hinders the sense of discovery. I actually do agree that on fundamental level gameplay mechanics in the gacha games might get pretty interesting. That only started happening recently though, by far and large they still are simplified versions of their traditional counterparts. Elemental system in GI with its hidden ele gauges and energy funneling is a fascinating idea that is still quite underutilized. Same with WuWa which has interesting swapping mechanics (although they do clash with aggressive bosses that provide very little windows to utilize them). But like you've said, it's all sabotaged by the mobile design, cause when the bar of execution is set so low you don't need to engage and understand most of these mechanics, it's like multiplying by zero. Not to mention that the easiest solution to any problem in a gacha game is not to git gud, but to get and build new meta character that will make the challenge more tolerable. That's precisely why I stand by saying that it's fair to assume gameplay mechanics aren't the top priority for most gacha players. It doesn't matter if the game has some interesting gameplay ideas if you need to intentionally gimp yourself and craft an environment where you can explore these ideas in devs stead; that's what

amazing video! first video i've seen from you, and I want to say three things: 1. I feel the term "gacha game" is probably best used to describe the monetization type/style of a game, NOT the gameplay. But even this has flaws, as gacha games I play (HSR, ZZZ) have a battle pass and daily/weekly reward system, which could make problems. What do you classify gacha games as? Gacha games? Live service games? Both? In my opinion it's vague even monetization-wise and that's the problem you pointed out. 2. I play gacha games, and I enjoy the gacha mechanic, but I am NOT going to defend it at all. To me, I like it for the gambler's thrill, if that makes any sense. I play gacha games completely F2P, so this "safe gambling" where I don't spend a dime but still get the same rush is very fun and inticing to me. But like I said, I won't defend this mechanic, as it is there to hook people into gambling their REAL money away on a chance to get something good. 3. I play gacha games somewhat casually, and I don't really put much effort into building my characters. HSR is my main gacha game, which I got into beccause of the "sci-fi" aesthetic and the characters. I play HSR for the characters and lore mainly, and IDK about other gacha players, but imo getting a character that is important to you or to the story can feel so rewarding and amaziing, and I feel that's why most people like gacha games, to play as their "dream" characters. (the "play as your husbando/waifu" thing adds to this too most likely) Sorry for the long comment, I just wanted to share my thoughs and experiences about gacha games. But I hope my comment is at least interesting to read

@SavageRodent

7 күн бұрын

No need to apologize for the long comment. It's a different viewpoint from myself, so it gave me something to think about. I guess I never thought about the gambling thrill, which is a pretty obvious reason for why people would like gacha games. Such an oversight on my part. The thing that still gets me though is the majority of time spent in these games isn't really engaging with the gacha mechanic, which to me implies that someone would primarily play a gacha game not for the gacha mechanic but for some other reason. And my next thought would then be is would the game be better or worse without the gacha mechanic.

@AdamDj-ic3kr

7 күн бұрын

​@@SavageRodenthonestly,I feel like most gacha games would be better without it, because as much as I like the thrill (f2p btw)it can be so annoying when you want one character but you can't either because of sheer bad luck or because you don't have enough premium currency and don't have the time to grind before the banner is gone ,wich is why even the best gacha games will never surpass an 8/10(aside from maybe limbus Company but the game is so generous the gacha is basically optional)

@SavageRodent

7 күн бұрын

@@AdamDj-ic3kr 100% agree. The question I'm wondering though is for the people that like the gacha mechanic, would removing that mechanic make the game better or worse for them, and would they still play it?

Lol, never heard of you but the YT algorithm recommended this video for me. I personally like gatcha games, or rather I like Genshin and try other gatchas, because I like the resin system. I like to maximize my characters so in a normal game I reach a point, where I have the best weapons, where I've "beat" the game. But in Genshin it is not really possible to maximize a character. Even if I were to farm a whole weekend, I wouldn't have the resin for it. This way, I have something I can do every day. And it doesn't take long, I get back from work, play like half an hour genshin and am happy. I am sure I am an outlier, at least it feels like that on social media, but it is always what you expect from the game. For 0$ I have now multiple years of entertainment and for the time it takes to have a character at an acceptable level I have saved up enough primos for a new one.

@SavageRodent

7 күн бұрын

I can definitely understand the feeling of logging in for a half hour every day and (hopefully) make progress to building characters. There is satisfaction there, but I don't like the feeling of having to do it every day otherwise you lose out on resources. Sometimes there are days where I don't want to play, and that's where you start to feel pressure and begin to get burnt out. Having an energy overflow storage, like what is in HSR, helps alleviate this problem, but you still have to login to continue to accumulate pull currency, which I think is a larger contributor to the pressure felt and is probably more so the issue. But like you've pointed out, it's hard to argue against how much entertainment you can get from these games with a price tag of $0. I suppose we can thank our local whales for that. lol

W Yap fest.

@SavageRodent

7 күн бұрын

The yappiest of yap fests.

Semantics