To anyone saying that the concept of being "gay" didn't exist in the ancient world... well, yeah.. but more to the point, the concept of being "straight" didn't exist, either.

@angelikaskoroszyn8495

Ай бұрын

Homosexuality was invented 4 years before heterosexuality

@ems4884

Ай бұрын

I really have never understood why this is so difficult for people. Same sex attraction has always existed. Everything points towards sexual orientations also being a constant in our species. How people act on that is separate matter, managed by culture. Similarly, how people understand and talk about the genders they are attracted to is managed by culture. Not complicated.

@latronqui

Ай бұрын

Well said

@wirebrushofenlightenment1545

Ай бұрын

Like the old joke about the Italian and the Greek arguing in a bar over whose ancient civilization was superior: Greek - "Yeah, well we Greeks invented sex." Italian - "Ah, but we Romans invented doing it with women."

@Dorian_sapiens

Ай бұрын

Gayness and bisexuality didn't exist before about 1972, conveniently (but totally coincidentally) around the same time conservatives in the USA had to give up trying to reinstate segregation because it was too unpopular. Lucky for them, LGBT+ stuff and ab*rtion suddenly sprang into existence, so they had something else to wage culture wars about.

Alexander wasn't gay, he was just Macedonian-curious.

@John_Malka-tits

Ай бұрын

Read Foucalt, no one was "gay" before the 1800s

@jeremysmith4620

Ай бұрын

@@John_Malka-tits I would suggest reading: 1. Dan O’Shannon's "What Are You Laughing At? A Comprehensive Guide to the Comedic Event" 2. Eric Idle's "The Road to Mars" 3. Todd McGowan's "Only a Joke Can Save Us: A Theory of Comedy" These books are great examples to help you identify a joke when you encounter one in the wild and understand why it is found funny. O'Shannon and McGowan both offer books that are a bit more dry. I assumed from your comment that this may take some effort to ease you into, so these are more clinical and clearly define parameters, timing, word play, etc. Eric Idle, from Monty Python fame, delivered this delightfully fun and funny book dealing with the same overall questions of "what is comedy" and "what is a joke." Instead of the more dry and straight forward presentation of the other two books, although they are also both funny. "The Road to Mars" is a novel set in space with a robot trying to figure out if it can be funny and understand the nature of comedy. The robot is the ship mate of two stand up comedians flying around from space port to space port putting on shows. Superbly entertaining, witty, and laugh out loud funny it is a fantastic read that should help you once you've read through it. As for my reading and your suggestion, I have never read "Foucalt" that you mentioned. I have read some Foucault though, but was disappointed. I found my self feeling that way because I had heard that Foucault was a large proponent of Penal Reform, which I was quite interested in. I was thoroughly shocked after reading his book, "The History of Sexuality," where he didn't remark on making changes to or improving the phallus whatsoever. Some champion of Penal Reform he was!

@Dorian_sapiens

Ай бұрын

@@John_Malka-tits No one should read Foucault, ever, for any reason. This sounds like a case in point.

@guaporeturns9472

Ай бұрын

@@Dorian_sapiensthe fact that you say this shows how much you dislike freedom.

@John_Malka-tits

Ай бұрын

@@Dorian_sapiens any media literate can read Foucalt and appreciate what he has to say. Media illiterate folks may read it, and try to justify pederasty. He was literally a philosophical ground-breaker and demystifies littterally this whole video

The bonds of brothers in arms penetrates, just, so deeply.

@Swimmaroo

Ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@sergiotorres3202

Ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂

@user-gi8pk9uc7q

Ай бұрын

Ha ha, good one!

@ames-inthe-grass

Ай бұрын

LMFAO

@sashakhan1262

Ай бұрын

It was probably intercurial.

And here I thought we always knew that Alexander was at least bi and that was culturally acceptable.

@elizabethduplat5998

Ай бұрын

I know right

@RKB-2001

Ай бұрын

No it was not lol, many were actually lynched for such actions. Acceptable for a select few parts of the rolling elites? In few cases - yes. For regular people? No lol.

@sashakhan1262

Ай бұрын

@@RKB-2001source that people were lynched for the object of desire’s gender rather than for physical passivity or hubris.

@kevineiford2153

Ай бұрын

@@RKB-2001 ??? Are you sure. Weren't the Greeks really gay? I'm pretty sure male homosexuality was expected in their culture

@Stavroforoi_Kata_Islam

Ай бұрын

Culturally acceptable is fine, if that's your thing, but we never knew that lol. There is zero documentation or proof. It is just speculation.

Do the Christian communities realize that he wasnt Christian, but more Greek in terms of belief system? Lol like...its not like theyre claiming Jesus was gay...

@runkelpokk9

Ай бұрын

they dont understand there was a time before christianity

@tatumfanclub8295

Ай бұрын

@@runkelpokk9I think Greeks know there was a time before they gave the world orthodoxy since they can be some of the most nationalist people ever

@johnathanl8396

Ай бұрын

As a Christian, we 100% know that because we actively talk about the differences between Roman/Greek vs. Christian culture when we listen to sermons talking about the Bible. It's your own ignorance of Ancient Greek cultures to assume that other non-Christian cultures could also be against homosexuality.

@johnathanl8396

Ай бұрын

@@runkelpokk9 Oh yeah we're so ignorant of the "times before Christianity" that half of our Bible that we study religiously (the Old Testament) talks all about the 1500 years before Jesus Christ came.

@KingsandHunters

Ай бұрын

😂💯👏🏻

In short, today's understanding sexual identities didn't exist in ancient world. Men could have male lovers. Taking the passive role was a sign of submissiveness to your superior because ancient world is very patriarchal. Most women didn't had much say or freedom as usual. Everyone was expected to marry and have children regardless.

@janetennyson5455

Ай бұрын

Yes, a lot of westerners do not seem to understand this.

@MatildeVallespinCasas

Ай бұрын

Indeed. Also, I have to add that the figure of Alexander the Great has been interpreted, reinterpreted and deconstructed in thousands ways because of how he went any known convention on earth. A short pretty boy with cunning IQ but also EQ and lots of sensibilities and contradictions? Not suitable for the traditional power play fantasy that people expect

@MatildeVallespinCasas

Ай бұрын

And also, that Alexander the Great is a figure that has inspired a lot of "interpretations" because is a fountain of contradictions that defied any labels in general. A short pretty boy with high EQ as well as IQ was able to conquer the world before 30? No way!

@HotDogTimeMachine385

Ай бұрын

Yeah, but looking back on it we have a word for men sleeping with men. It's called homosexuality. I understand your argument, but by that logic you could argue "ancient world didn't have today's understanding of molecules, so we can't say they drank H2O" We have words for things.

@kant.68

Ай бұрын

@@HotDogTimeMachine385Alexander wouldn’t consider himself a “gay” man that’s tyething

Alexander built a monument to the guy when he died. Hmmmm....

@dineyashworth8578

Ай бұрын

exactly totally not at least bisexual at all and they weren't lovers and I'm straight too like him. lol

@Emperorofthemoon1

17 күн бұрын

Idk man, I always spend the rough modern equivalent of a billion USD on my friend's funerals and order every man, woman, and child to cut their hair in mourning for him.

Wow, when I sent in the idea not so long ago, I did not expect you to get to it so quickly, but thank you for the amazing video (as always)!

@CinziaDuBois

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the idea!

@serpentlaw5961

8 күн бұрын

@@CinziaDuBois Very eloquently done, too!

Yes, the book to read on this topic is Lover's Legends by Andrew Calimach. It explains that part of the reason why stories of same sex attraction in myth and history are unknown to some scholars, and why any ancient Greek sources that criticize or condemn homoeroticism have seem to had thier importance exaggerated beyond what is warranted, and this is because, unless they are reading actual ancient Greek original sources, modern translations of these ancient Greek documents have deliberately omitted and censored such things for hundreds of years as a matter of taste and morality. Lovers Legends restores the homosexual content to these myths and histories.

@dineyashworth8578

Ай бұрын

exactly and I'm tired of the censcorship when it comes to gay people like me so I'm glad they didn't do it this time!

I’m a Christian myself and even I can read the political image PR going on in these protests. They associate historical figures with representing their current status and seek to block images they don’t like and approve of. The trouble is, history just doesn’t work that way. Excellent presentation as always and hope you feel better soon. You did not sound weird in anyway.

@Pluto-cw2kh

Ай бұрын

Honestly I think a lot of those same people are the ones who try to idealize the past, they don't like things that disprove their opinions.

@Stavroforoi_Kata_Islam

Ай бұрын

Alexander the Great was not and will never be a Christian figure in history, so I don't understand why any Christians care.

@olegshevchenko5869

Ай бұрын

@@Pluto-cw2kh they also tend to later claim that their neighboring countries are not real because they never existed throughout most of the history, a 30-minute lecture on 1200+ years of history attached. Some people need to learn the difference between history and current political and cultural status.

@Ron_DeForest

21 күн бұрын

Those complaining are likely the same people that believe CRT is being taught in grade schools as opposed to just plain history class.

Ancient Greek society, classical age. Naked athletics, only naked men in sculptured art, naked male Olympic athletes., naked men in gyms. Doesn't sound gay at all...LOL C'mon. My favorite graffiti on an ancient Greek stadium tunnel wall - obviously it would be directed at other men, as only men would be taking that tunnel to the arena area "Look up Moschos in Philippi, he's cute." 😁

@angelikaskoroszyn8495

Ай бұрын

I have another one. If I remember correctly it went "I give up on women. For now I will only pleasure men"

@fwwaller

Ай бұрын

There were naked women in those gyms too

@benjalucian1515

Ай бұрын

@@fwwaller I think you're thinking of Roman baths. "Gymnasium: the name comes from the Ancient Greek term gymnós, meaning "naked" or "nude". Only adult male citizens were allowed to use the gymnasia."

@marsultor6131

Ай бұрын

@@angelikaskoroszyn8495 Wasn’t it one of the graffiti discovered in Pompeii?

@azelmamortlake4471

Ай бұрын

@@angelikaskoroszyn8495 The actual phrasing is so much funnier, but unfortunately not KZread friendly- starting with "goodbye wondrous femininity!" cracks me up every time I think of it, because it's so over the top.

It's always so funny to see how people forget about Hephaestion. It's probably because they were taught the mythical history wrong. Hephaestion was his eromenos, his lover. They were the same age, too, so it wasn't pederasty.

@bennogb5069

Ай бұрын

No, there is no mention of that at all in historical texts

@TheKnowledgeMan101

Ай бұрын

​​@@bennogb5069 Yes there is, if you read Arrian's discourses of Epictitus and Anabasis of Alexander, Hephaestion is described as Alexander's Eromenos. There is also an explicit reference to their sexual relationship, and its found in the Cynic Epistles, where Diogenes berates Alexander for being too held fast by Hephaestion's thighs

@angel7661

25 күн бұрын

Except those are believed to be Roman in origin none of the primary sources name them as eromes

@TheKnowledgeMan101

25 күн бұрын

@@angel7661 Except a huge percentage of the sources are from Roman historians, but that doesn't mean they are less reliable. The Romans were heavily inspired by the Greeks and the Greeks lived under Roman rule for a very long time, so I'm sure these Roman historians would've had great access to Greek documents.

@angel7661

25 күн бұрын

@@TheKnowledgeMan101 Except a majority of primary sources never used the word Eromenos to describe Hesphaestion and Alexander despite Arrian using the word Eromenos to describe other relationship with the same work. Not to mention the Cynic Epistes is believe to be made in Rome not come from Diogenes and it is debated if Alexander actually met Diogenes. That is why it is speculative. We can uses Roman sources however they aren't best and no primary greek source we recovered claim they were Eromenos. Aristotle quote about the two of them sharing the same souls actually comes fom his view on friendship. Could he and Bi/Pan maybe but historian also believe Alexander was trying to control his Vices (ie sex, wine) to remain seen as a god king What is a friend? A single soul dwelling in two bodies.” -Aristotle

I dont understand the whole debate anyway. Speaking from just the viewpoint of filmmaking, the Alexander film from the 2000s already made him verrrrryyyyy in love with his friend/general/advisor. He died in his arms... I thought it's common knowledge that he was at least bi

@AC-dk4fp

12 күн бұрын

Oliver Stone's Alexander was just as hated by the Greek right for that very reason.

The comments on this one are going to be an absolute dumpster fire. 😂 Wonderful video as always, Cinzia.

@CinziaDuBois

Ай бұрын

Compared to my second channel, the comments will be tame

Modern Greeks: Homosexuality didn't exist in Ancient Greece! Sappho, Achilles, Petroclus, Heracles, Iolaus, and Apollo: Excuse us?!

@basicallyno1722

Ай бұрын

There’s no explicit evidence that Achilles and Petroclus were gay from the originally Homeric sources. …personally though, I think the whole setup is more than a bit gay. ..probably why later writers made them so.

@basicallyno1722

Ай бұрын

Also homosexuality and male worship seemed to be pretty common in Ancient Greece 😂 so it’s funny to hear anyone say that!

@swaythegod5812

Ай бұрын

Where is evidence Alexander was gay oh wait there is none

@faust8218

Ай бұрын

​@@basicallyno1722 Homosexuality was not common. Pederasty might have been, but the only mentions in literature of adult male homosexual relations are in the context of when it's used as an insult (such as Spartan letters.)

@tomcharnley4217

Ай бұрын

@@faust8218 did you not watch the video? The modern construct of homosexuality is so alien to the ancient world that to apply such a label would be inaccurate. Also the video offers serval examples of references to mlm relationships outside of the spartan letters.

Fascinating deep dive yet again ! I would love a video of Sappho and/or sapphic love in history/mythology in the future !

7:14 I think it should be emphasised on this particular point that the acceptability of being active an the taboo of being passive was for citizens and free non-citizens, while passivity in sexual relationships with men was permitted for slaves for instance.

@John_Malka-tits

Ай бұрын

Read Foucalt, no one was "gay" before the 1800s

@ems4884

Ай бұрын

I thought that was the Roman attitude, not the Greek.

@EyeOfEld

Ай бұрын

"Permitted"

@MatildeVallespinCasas

Ай бұрын

​@@ems4884which was copied from other cultures, including the Greeks

Thank you for the video. Netflix has riled up a lot of people with their depictions of ancient life recently. Hopefully, people who watched the Cleopatra and Alexander programs were inspired to do some reading of their own on about these fascinating figures and not dissuaded by any superficial controversy.

@TheGrinningViking

Ай бұрын

They did Cleopatra dirty.

@andrewbecker1013

Ай бұрын

Cleopatra was deservedly controversial because of how much it radically deviated from historical fact. Alexander is causing undue controversy because it is adhering to historical record about Alexander's sexuality. The two are completely opposite in that regard.

@MatildeVallespinCasas

Ай бұрын

​@@andrewbecker1013only that there is no documentation in both topics about the things they claim. Cleopatra, funnily enough, was actually descendant from one of Alexander's generals, Ptolomey, and therefore, would look very........Greek?. The only claim that she was black was that there was a so called black pharaoh dynasty coming from Nubia (nowadays Sudan)and, ok, fair enough, they were black but more akin to Beyonce than to, say, a tribe in Masai Mara. And it's true that we don't know for sure who her maternal grandmother was but if she were even a little darker than Megan Markle, Roman sources would have told us. Concerning Mega Alex, well, there is no documentation who he really liked, but for sure he had kids with multiple women, which renders this point mute

@JulietteDupont-up1gi

Ай бұрын

​@@MatildeVallespinCasas Well, I don't know why people say "gay" when it's much more likely that he was bisexual. There is no little reason to believe this. In a letter from Diogenes of Sinope he said that Alexander the great was "controlled by the thighs of Hephaestion". The Cynic philosophers added that Alexander was only defeated once in his life and that it was by the thighs of Hephaestion. So one of two, either Hephaestion tried to literally suffocate him with his thighs or we are adults and we understand what they were referring to. Seems like it was pretty obvious...

@JulietteDupont-up1gi

Ай бұрын

​@@MatildeVallespinCasasIt's much more likely that he was bisexual, but the love of his life was Hephaestion. There is no little reason to believe this. In a letter from Diogenes of Sinope he said that Alexander the great was "controlled by the thighs of Hephaestion". The Cynic philosophers added that Alexander was only defeated once in his life and that it was by the thighs of Hephaestion. So one of two, either Hephaestion tried to literally suffocate him with his thighs or we are adults and we understand what they were referring to. Seems like it was pretty obvious... Not to add all the pain that Alexander went through when Hephaestion died. Hephaestion death is considered one of the events that led to Alexander's physical and emotional decline as he began to drink uncontrollably. He dies about 8 months later. Quite a thing, if you ask me.

I believe you brought up several salient points. The Greeks and Romans were--more complicated than we moderns can credit. It takes a bold scholar to buck today's trends of "Mrs. Grundy is kink-shaming again..." I further believe that the outcry against the Netflix programs is part of our own modern generations of reluctance to recognize that people have been people since the beginning of our time on this world, and things back in antiquity were just as complex and nuanced as they are today. Humans are curious animals. We're complicated and simple at the same time. Wise and stupid at the same time. Most of what we think of as "forbidden" or "unacceptable" is more a product of our present-day cultural references than some inviolate, immutable natural law. There are a few things we can all agree on as being forbidden and unacceptable; murder, theft, rape... And probably the first two can be argued that there are moral exceptions for the commission thereof; war, starvation... But the third? I can't see any moral exclusion for forcing sexual advances on someone without their informed consent, no. Is that a cultural bias on my part? Possibly. How would I know? I'm a product of my culture. Breaking laws against non-harmful activities was part of my heritage. But there is, at least in my mind, a difference between making moonshine, driving over the posted speed limit, or passing the ritual herb to something like non-consensual sex. That's my culture. I hope this post made sense. My apologies if I just made myself look stupid.

@rjcarter2904

20 күн бұрын

well, Christianity ruined things for all--as usual

Thank you so much for doing a video on this topic.

Very interesting and well researched, thank you.

@CinziaDuBois

Ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@andyorfanakos8169

Ай бұрын

Did someone say researched 😂😂😂 if you think that’s research your as dumb as the movie was

Another fascinating deep dive. A layered discussion, as always.

Always love your historical videos on the ancient world. Great topic and well presented.

So glad to see another historical dive from you, always a pleasure to listen along, and a fantastic talk on this subject. ❤

Very much like your scholarly approach. And your wordsmithing around Aristotle's thoughts on bottoming was very entertaining. I am not shy about these topics, except in the classroom - and so i can relate to your verbal ceasura.

I laughed so hard at this title because of the audacity to suppose that anyone can MAKE Alexander the Great gay. Boy bye. 💅🏽

@faust8218

Ай бұрын

?? Alexander the Great definitely had sexual relations with women, but the supposed male sexual relations are more speculative. The ancient world did not have a modern sexual binary as such, so it's completely valid to question the notion that Alexander was "gay".

@Raphsophomes

Ай бұрын

​@@faust8218But its weird to emphasize. Bc theres very little documentation on him having relationships whatsoever.

@marocat4749

Ай бұрын

He is best characterized as bisexual disaster probably?! He did engage in gay stuff i think pretty comfortable i think?!, whenever hephistion, thats the speculative but wsnt he pretty didnt care not to engage with , he probably was bisexual. But the erasure of hephisteion, they probably were vey close romantic enough that it posed a percieved threat to do his duties to his wife, he can be bi and that be, his life partner .If ther ewas gossip and erasure even, it has to be the one he prefered the most likely

@faust8218

Ай бұрын

@@Raphsophomes Did you read the comment I'm replying to? They're basically saying that it's abvious that Alexander was "gay." It's very common today to see similar modern impositions on history, specifically the thing about "Greeks being gay." It's a radical oversimplification at best, and a straight up lie about history at worst, no different than 19th century nationalist rewritings. I don't necessarily disagree with anything in the actual video.

@MatildeVallespinCasas

Ай бұрын

​@@Raphsophomeshe had children with women, one of them called Heracles, by the way. So, either he did a great effort to overcome his supposed lack of attraction or......I don't know

Alexander preferred men. History shows that clearly. It just is what it is.

I love your history lessons ❤ hope to get more in the future!

Great video. I read someone's PhD paper on Hephaestion back in 2005 when the movie "Alexander" came out. The author made a good case for bisexuality expressed between Alexander and Hephaestion.

@John_Malka-tits

Ай бұрын

Read Foucalt, no one was "gay" before the 1800s. People were just allowed to be freaks before "sexuality" was a medical category

@warpedweft9004

Ай бұрын

I don't know that you can even term it bisexuality. That's a modern construct that people are trying to apply to an ancient culture, with different norms and beliefs.

@benjalucian1515

Ай бұрын

@@warpedweft9004 True, that's our term. But in ancient times, it was natural for boys/men to get together and also get married to women.

@warpedweft9004

Ай бұрын

@@benjalucian1515 but it was also natural for them to discard a wife or marry her off to someone else against the woman's will.

@benjalucian1515

Ай бұрын

@@warpedweft9004 No argument there.

ol alex was as camp as a row of tents when he wanted to be i thought it was a well known historical fact The Great liked men and women every thing ive ever herd about him alludes to it

I have some kind of unrelated thoughts as they’re not specific to this case. But I wanted to put them out there anyway. With all the talk about homosexuality and everything deviating the norm or being unnatural, I always have to think: Even if something’s not common, has not been occurring for a long time or is present in more ways than some people think, it’s not right to say it is inherently wrong. Just because something does not occur often or is viewed as wrong, maybe even unnatural, it does not mean that something is actually wrong. Of course, some people will not follow that thought and still act like it is wrong, which is why I think it is important to establish a way of thinking that is generally appreciative of things in existence, instead of condemning things that appear or actually are different from what one usually experiences. Something quite fitting just popped into my mind: “Different denotes neither good nor bad, but it certainly means different.” It’s astonishing how many people have difficulties arranging their perception based on that principle. Especially the ones who are against properties in people which are not harmful in any way.

@warpedweft9004

Ай бұрын

it's only not right in some people's minds, those who have been brought up to believe a certain way. Don't forget this was all pre-Christianity, and there was no puritan thinking. Therein lies the problem. A lot of today's society was brought up to think one way and ancient societies another way. You can't equate the modern concept of homosexuality with the mostly platonic relationships of ancient worlds.

@janwilson9485

Ай бұрын

​@@warpedweft9004even pre abrahamic religions there would have been a lot of differences in what was acceptable and unacceptable in many areas of human life in different ci ilisations and at different times.

1:05 What?! Um, of course homosexuality was a thing in ancient times. That clergyman should read his Bible; the Apostle Paul and others commented on the fact

@Theo-bk6qj

Ай бұрын

*When we talk about homosexuality, we are talking about same-sex attraction which this concept was viewed different from long ago. At least in Ancient Greece, man on man sex are tolerated (although being submissive/bottom is a taboo. So only the women, slaves and unfortunately young boys would be submissive), women on women are quite murky (possibly problematic since taking an active role is seen as going against nature) as we don't have much or at least don't have a proper women's perspective on it and man-man ROMANTIC relationship was also somewhat murky as there are no certainty that they accept homosexual relationship (although if they believe women can only be submissive and man must be active, then I would guess it isn't that acceptable as it would mean one of the partner has to be submissive.)

@AC-dk4fp

12 күн бұрын

That's like one of the most disputed and hard to translate lines in Paul lol.

Great video. This is the first one I've seen by you and I have subscribed,

I always love when the public is outraged by ideas that scholars have noted and/or discussed for years. History is woke.

@RKB-2001

Ай бұрын

But you ignore the wast majority of scholars who deny your idiotic ideas.

@mercistephens7325

18 күн бұрын

@@RKB-2001 please name some since you believe there are so many who disagree

@phoebeel

12 күн бұрын

@@mercistephens7325 pssst don't disturb his reddit-formed opinion with facts

Hello, Lady of the Library. This was a really interesting video. As a student in archeology, you have pointed out things that we have seen in license classes (symposium, many RB ceramic painting, etc). The topic of sexuality in Ancient Greece/Macedonia is still a great debate because of our modern view of the Ancient world. If I could suggest a really interesting subject it is the Amazon Prime series of ROMULUS, made by Amazon Prime. It is a fiction that does its own version of the foundation myth of Rome. Only that the characters are made more "barbaric" so to speak (Viking runes on the title, pelts, tattoos, shamanic rituals, etc). This could lead you to a subject of "barbarisation" (as my teachers called it) of European cultures pre-antiquity or pre-roman. Hope to see more videos from you in the future!

@pattheplanter

Ай бұрын

Viking runes that developed from the Greek alphabet a thousand years after the supposed founding of Rome? Oh dear. Did they include the Etruscans as civilised neighbours with clean clothes and advanced technology?

@SomeWeirdNinjaToon

Ай бұрын

@@pattheplanter I don't remember much. Mostly pelts and some cave people that are supposed to be the first romans

Great vid. An example of explaining a rather subtle and complex concept with admirable clarity.

Love seeing your videos

I mean, I grew up going to strict Christian and Catholic schools and I still knew that Alexander didn’t quite fit into our modern concept of “straight.”

Thanks for this neat video Cinzia!

Thanks for posting this and all your videos. They are great to share and educate people.

Excellent video, so interesting, thanks.

So good video!! I love it! ❤

Loved your breakdown of this! And thank you for your well researches and nuanced walk through the differences in conceptualization of sexuality in these ancient cultural settings because it really shapes how people thought about themselves, others, their actions, and relationships within that culture. Also, weird question but your voice kept making me feel like I'd heard it before, it sounds so familiar. I won't name anything or any usernames, but have you perhaps recorded podfics in the past? If not, no worries, my brain just kept pinging a voice familiarity.

@CinziaDuBois

Ай бұрын

Thank you. No, I've never done any voice work or any recordings other than the videos on my KZread channel and my own podcast

@anangoons

29 күн бұрын

@@CinziaDuBois Haha no worries then! Regardless, wonderful video, thank you so much for all the hard work, creativity, and research you put into it!

Thank you so much for doing this video.

As a student in ancient greek and latin, who have studied some of the texts you are refering to, I put my suport behind your claims. (If it matters to anyone)

I love when you say they believe it is based on the stars like Ancient Greeks be like oh he is a Gemini he must be gay 🤣

@pattheplanter

Ай бұрын

Jupiter rising. Mercury and Ares in conjunction. Though, seriously, the water-carrier Aquarius was seen by the Greeks as Ganymede, a pretty male lover of Zeus taken to Olympus to serve the gods. . . with water.

So as usual history is complicated and it is impossible to truly understand it because whether we like it or not we view it through our modern understanding. Great video as usual and I hope you do a follow up on the female side of things.

@joso7228

Ай бұрын

Well history is not 'complicated' in Netflix eyes because being Gay is the most important part of Alexander's story.

@ems4884

Ай бұрын

There are certain parts of the historical record that are more difficult to research. I'm afraid this often includes women's history. There's enough material to work with when it comes to women and same-gender love between women in Ancient Greece. However, it was a very patriarchal culture so there's quite a bit of detail and nuance that we will probably always lack. Sapho is the obvious starting point.

@laisphinto6372

Ай бұрын

Good luck with finding female Perspective in ancient Times because they are either sex workers,witches ,scemers or loyal mothers Most women in ancient Times we're straight Up property of the father and were living breathing treaties to make alliances between Clans.

beautiful video analysis thank you so much for sharing.

Hello Cinzia... I am a great fan of your work. Just a small correction Harmodius and Aristogeiton assassinated the tyrant Hipparchus, but not his brother Hippias. Hippias, actually, executed the pair for the murder.

@CinziaDuBois

Ай бұрын

Oh god, what a stupid error on my behalf; thank you for pointing that out.

Love the explanation! Curious in watching the show if it looks more like common expectations regarding male-male relations or if it accurately depicts the relevant historical nuisances and common perceptions of the time. One question: how did the myth related to all humans being initially created as having two sets of arms and legs before being separated into male/female interact with Ancient Greek relations?

@naurahdeatrisyagitany8365

Ай бұрын

Plato invented that myth just like how he invented the myth of Atlantis. He's an advocate of inventing new myths to suit the society he lived in

@AC-dk4fp

12 күн бұрын

@@naurahdeatrisyagitany8365 They're not the same though. One is Aristophanes' mythic tale from the Symposium which is not the final word on love presented in the work while Atlantis is a (pseudo-)historical Epic he tells two versions of but doesn't get paired with an alternate tale on the same topic. Atlantis is based off of the Myths of Phaeton and Deucalion which in turn have Babylonian origins while Aristophanes' tale is probably based on a Phoenician story related to the second and third chapters of Genesis since it fits with Caananite/Israelite gender views (only modified to naturalise homosexuality in a very non-Israelite manner). Neither are just invented from the imagination and without parrelels in previous culture and mythology. Plato writes in dialogues using fictionalised characters positions like 'we can just invent better myths' and 'poets are liars who must be kicked out of the ideal state' are found in Plato's writings but its much harder to say what Plato actually agreed with.

If Alexander liked guys, good for him. Why do people care - given that his love life isnt the reason why he's been remembered for 2,500 years? The only thing I can think of: there are a lot of paranoid, insecure "straight" types who can't bear the idea that a guy attracted to other men could possibly have ever done anything noteworthy.

@janwilson9485

Ай бұрын

Or 'gay types' trying to say that famous historical figures were gay as if that legitimises their personality politics.

@mercistephens7325

18 күн бұрын

@@janwilson9485 I don't think you actually know what does words mean

this thing of people being upset that behaviors of people in the past exhibiting things unremarkable to them at the time but seen as "pushing" offensive (to the ones complaining) got me wondering about the other side of the coin...do modern depictions of admired people avoid showing them saying things that would be considered racist and sexist in ways they probably didn't even notice but would be unacceptable (hopefully) today 🙂(i doubt we'd have to go as far back as slave owning times or even the ancient world for an accurate movie to face this...probably just great grandparents time would be fine 😀

Video topic idea - what cardinal direction was at the top of maps in the ancient world?

I got my start in research doing research into the social factors of HIV transmission in the early ‘90s. This ancient pattern of a hierarchy of “active” vs “passive” was very much still around and considered part of how homosexuality worked in Southern European cultures, among others, including the pre-Civil Rights Era American South. This was very much on the “down low”. The men who were “active” wouldn’t agree to being homosexual at all. I have no idea if that’s still true and have long ago switched fields, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that still exists in places that may well deny on the surface that there’s any homosexuality going on.

@ruthspanos2532

Ай бұрын

I don’t remember the source(s), but I have heard of a similar culture in prisons. I really don’t want to look up the topic, so sorry I can’t provide more information.

Colored by the Christian Orthodox Church, modern greeks have their own perception of ancient history.

@ems4884

Ай бұрын

True. Also colored by nationalism quite a bit. No disrespect to the Greeks, of course. (Who could dislike modern Greece?). They do need to move beyond nationalist politics soon, however.

@Billpro25

Ай бұрын

@@ems4884 No worries. I am greek, I wholeheartedly agree. Alas, I don't think I'll live to see a more 'open-minded' so-to-say Greece.

@devifoxe

Ай бұрын

Greeks dislike modern Greece...

@Billpro25

Ай бұрын

@@devifoxe Ye-up. Can't blame them (much) though. Not much glory to be had nowadays.

@devifoxe

Ай бұрын

@@Billpro25 the imaginary missing glory is the problem... 24h propaganda in the media from a corrupt right wing government is not helping... And the systemic left for some reason is trying to copy the democrats in USA because they are so successful over there... So yea...

I have seen it suggested that Macedonian attitudes towards male same-sex sexual behaviour may have differed from the Athenian attitudes and that relationships between two adult men or two similarly aged adolescents may have been more accepted among Macedonians. I'm not so sure that the Hellenistic successor kingdoms looked down on same-sex sexual relations to the degree that they would have felt a need to censor such a relationship between Alexander and Hephaistion since they were all formed by members of the Macedonian elite. In the 3rd century BCE, the Ptolemaic court poet Poseidippos wrote a poem (GP Asclep. 37) about how he (or at least the lyrical I employed in the poem) had no feelings for women but an unquenchable desire for men (though whether these were his own personal feelings or it was written from the perspective of a character, I don't know). The fact that he was able to write and publish this while being a poet at the royal court (and the fact that he says men and not boys) implies that, at least in 3rd century BCE Alexandria, attitudes towards adult male same-sex sexual desire were quite relaxed. (Which also correlates with other stories that paint a picture of Alexandria in the 3rd century BCE as a place that wasn't too concerned with conservative social mores, such as the accounts of the physician Herophilos being allowed by the Ptolemaic kings to dissect human cadavers which was forbidden elsewhere in the ancient world or the fact that there seem to have been female actors in Alexandria, at least in New Comedy productions, when acting in classical Greek culture had always been a strictly male profession.) I believe there are also some ancient sources that do refer to Hephaistion as Alexander's eromenos? (But I think they're from a couple centuries later and I can't remember whom they're by. It seems most ancient sources which are considered credible do not directly spell it out.) I've also encountered a theory that Alexander may have been sexually and romantically attracted to Hephaistion without Hephaistion actually reciprocating those feelings (which could help explain why most ancient sources don't explicitly refer to them as lovers).

Thank you, I love your videos.

As a greek i thank you for this video! It has always been so funny to me to hear very masculine "manly men" (aka toxically masculine🤫) say that their idol is Alexander the great and that there is no way he was queer because he was a great ruler.

@TinkerTaylor-zv1ml

Ай бұрын

Yep, it is hilarious! I once made a joke with my best friend (guy married with other guy), that he was extremely masculine, because he didn't even marry a woman. I am bewildered why people make such a problem about two people having consensual relationships.

@Jay_Johnson

Ай бұрын

Ditto with Frederick the Great

@AC-dk4fp

12 күн бұрын

Alexander wasn't a Great Ruler he was a Great Warlord who never ruled a day in his life and kicked the bucket the moment he realised he was supposed to get around to doing so.

The historical record shows Alexander, like most Greeks* of his period, was bisexual. (* Yes, I know that he was Macedonian, but he considered himself Hellene.)

@agiospipas

Ай бұрын

Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks.

@annalieff-saxby568

Ай бұрын

@agiospipas The Ancient Athenians didn't think that. Read some of Demosthenes' "Phillipics".

@agiospipas

Ай бұрын

@@annalieff-saxby568 Some(!) Ancient Athenians didn't consider Lesbians and Epirotes as Greeks either given their non -Attic Greek speech(Aeolic and Northwestern Greek, respectively). So, non argument.

@user-xo6pr6zw7l

Ай бұрын

@@agiospipas Epirotes yes, but Lesbos was part of the Delian League and then the Athenian Empire and they were as much Hellenes as Athenians or Milesians. Dialects did not disqualify. Attic-speaking Athenians may have looked down on Doric-speaking Spartans et al. and vice-versa, but they were all considered Hellenes. Macedonians, on the other hand, were considered by many of the Peloponnesian and Central Greek states to be different and they objected to their inclusion in the Olympics and other Hellenic festivals.

Oh, that was really interesting! Well done!

Thanks for your insightful video essay. 🙏❤️❤️❤️

Thorough as ever

An excellent essay, basically a term paper in video form. Amazing, thank you for the many citations of scholars and primary sources! (That this series is grossly inaccurate in terms of historic depiction is true, but not because of Hephaistion. The costumes are atrocious. Still, that we are at this point where one little scene (it's really rather short and after that their relationship isn't very intimate at all) can cause such a shitstorm is worrying...

This was an excellent video on the subject.

Hi, I was wondering if you've read much on the celts and druids, in particular, I'd be curious to see a video with your take on them.

Your topics are interesting. Your research is on point. Your videos are well written. Your voice is pleasant to listen to. Your aesthetics are all on point. And your quite beautiful. Idk how you don’t have more views and subs. I love your videos. Maybe your vids don’t get as much exposure because you’re in the UK or something. Otherwise I just don’t get it 🤷🏻‍♂️

I enjoy when the lady at the library tells me about history

@jammasterjay4298

19 күн бұрын

It is not true he was queer

@mercistephens7325

18 күн бұрын

@@jammasterjay4298 - he cried out while weeping and throwing up

As a gay Classicist who for a couple of years considered converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, hearing a Greek bishop get bent out of shape basically because "they made Alexander the Great woke" is _surreal ..._

@innervoicejargon

Ай бұрын

Really???

@gabrielblanchard3921

Ай бұрын

@@innervoicejargon hashtag there are dozens of us

According to records from the time, Alexander the Great was what is now termed as bisexual

Wonderful. Well researched, balanced and intelligent. Thanks

Does it matter? The guy was too busy conquering the known world.

@allistertheeldritchmemegod3537

Ай бұрын

Correct. This is a modern perversion because we get everything we need for free and have no real problems.

whatever we want to call Alexander's sexuality today aside, the fact this show caused such a 'ruckus' is the most disturbing thing to take home. one could be excused to think we didn't make any progress at all since the 1980s. why would the thought of ancient Alexander having intimate relations with Hephaestion and others bother any Greek minister today?

Actually there are some sources of which we can suppose that Alexander and Hephaestion did have a romantic sexual relationship 1. Arrian writes in his Discourses of Epictitus that he remembers how Alexander ordered that the Temples of Asclepius be set on fire when his "eromenos" died. And in the Anabasis of Alexander, Arrian names this Eromenos as being referenced to Hephaestion. 2. In the Cynic Epistles, Diogenes berates Alexander for being held fast by Hephaestion's thighs. Also the interpretation of Alexander's lack of desire for sex and how his parents demanded he have sex with Callixeina is incorrect. If you read it carefully, their worry of his lack of sexual desire was in relation to his excessive drinking of alcohol. Aristotle pushed this idea that the semen of people who drink too much becomes watery and thus not be able to have sexual libido. So their worry of him becoming a "gynnis" was divided in two. 1. Is that they were afraid he was becoming asexual and they needed him to give them an heir. 2. They were afraid that he was becoming an eromenos, or basically the passive side, and so they begged him to have sex with Callixina because they wanted him to become an Erastes or the dominant side

I love this one. Thank you.

The history books, I read in school seem to have implied that he was bisexual at the very least

Wow. Thank you for telling me about Harmodius and Aristogeiton: _Harmodius and Aristogeiton (both died 514 BC) were two lovers in Classical Athens who became known as the Tyrannicides._ ... _Both Thucydides (d. 400 BC) and Herodotus (d. 425 BC) describe the two as lovers, their love affair was styled as moderate (sophron) and legitimate (dikaios). Further confirming the status of the two as paragons of pederastic ethics, a domain forbidden to slaves, a law was passed prohibiting slaves from being named after the two heroes._ _The story continued to be cited as an admirable example of heroism and devotion for many years. In 346 BC, for example, the politician Timarchus was prosecuted (for political reasons) on the grounds that he had prostituted himself as a youth. The orator who defended him, Demosthenes, cited Harmodius and Aristogeiton, as well as Achilles and Patroclus, as examples of the beneficial effects of same-sex relationships. Aeschines (d. 314 BC) offers them as an example of dikaios erōs, "just love", and as proof of the boons such love brings to lovers - who were both improved by love beyond all praise - as well as to the city._ This information flies in the face of that KZreadr (forgot his name but he cosplays as medieval guys) who claimed that ancient Greeks looked down upon all homosexuality, that they did not view Achilles and Patroclus as lovers, etc. I felt that the KZreadr was only laying out one side of the story and I even picked up some misrepresentations he made myself. Thanks so much for this more balanced, nuanced and enlightening video.

I always took Alexander as the type who liked who he liked and anyone who didn't agree with him could argue with the sharp end of his sword. Pun intended.

Such a great scholarly analysis. Would love to hear more videos on queer history

I love how anyone at least a little versed in ancient history considers Ancient Greece to be extremely gay civilization but not the actual Greeks themselves. Hilarious😂

I think an important aspect has been left out of the conversation - namely a degree of male-to-male intimacy we would call a bromance these days, i.e. physical and emotional affinity between two males of approximately similar ages and status without going "all in", pun intended.

Hmmm....maybe those initial critics should look at some of the stuff depicted on the ceramics.

@RKB-2001

Ай бұрын

Maybe you actually should look in to those ceramics and how the vast majority being claimed as representing homosexuality are actually not that. A very few represent actual homosexual acts

These discussions are strange, because some people seem to look back to Greeks and Romans for queer representation, but often the form male on male interactions we find in these histories are between adult males and boys that were considered ...boys. While I do think it's important to not erase this reality of these societies I don't think it's smart or moral to look to them or use them as representation

Alexander is a great example of what can happen when you are unleashed

From what I understand as long as you weren't the bottom it was usually kosher for some guy on guy action, but the bottoms were commonly slandered and looked down upon.

...and they were roommates.

@laisphinto6372

Ай бұрын

You think every single soldier IS gay?

@ashneelchauhan6169

19 күн бұрын

@@laisphinto6372 some are so what?

i remember the alexander the great movie they made with colin farrel and it was very gay.

"Brokeback Macedonian"

You missed mine, which is specially about Alexander and Hephaistion: "An Atypical Affair? Alexander the Great, Hephaistion, and the Nature of Their Relationship," The Ancient History Bulletin 13.3 (1999) 81-96.

Way late to the party and no one will see this comment but the essay on homosexuality in antiquity at the end of Sarah Ruden translation of Petronius’s Satyricon is a quick read & very informative

Even if they did, it wouldn't have been unusual for the time period.

I'm not super knowledgeable on Alexander, but I do know that the ancient Roman's/Greeks were very into sex. All kinds of it. And yeah, lots of famous Roman's and Greeks had known same sex partners.

I think it's been common knowledge that he liked men for a very long time so this should not be news to anyone.

Byrne Fone in his _Homophobia. A History_ traces homosexuality as a concept all the way to antiquity, when people would explicitly categorise men (and even women) based on the orientation of their attraction. He shows that a lack of a term like "homosexual" did not prevent them from having a mental concept for it. So the idea that a person can be exclusively attracted to members of their own sex is not a modern one, in spite of all the smoke and mirrors of queer theory.

There is a fun novel which explores Alexander's gayness. It is called 'The Persian Boy'. It is a fun read.

17:58 I know this isn't the point of this section of texts but I wonder if "might/Shoud" could be a linguist origin of the USA Southern phrase "Might could"

But he did have a male concubine (don't knw the exact term) well we knw of one so.... 👀

There is an easy answer here: as has been the case throughout history, whenever there is a question of love, relationship and sexuality, the truth usually is found on the opposite side of wherever one of the monotheistic faiths and their representatives position themselves.

I dont think its that contractory, if now we have both acceptance and it mostly accepted and stuff, while all that anti gay stuff, its realistic that it was praxis and happened, while being also shamed. Honestly all the complaining just confirms, it happened and people generally accepted it. Just some people had "moral concerns" I say that to whats known with current moral panics tha are reactive to a mostly accepted thing, but , i dont think media and people wer that different then. oh god, the patroklus thing is, how can historians deny that they probably being gay partner icons, how can that be denied??

Alexander was a fan of Homer’s Troy War and found Achilles love of Patroclus as entirely manly and felt the same Hephaestion. This did not in any way an issue to have relations sex and romance with women.

Greek person here. Great video! It may seem incredible, but everyone knows and accepts that men used to have open homosexual relations in ancient Greece, except modern Greeks themselves. 😅 For context, in government currently is a very right-wing party (verging on the far-right) and the minister that made that comment is probably the worst minister for culture that Greece has ever had, as she shows zero regard for all things cultural (just look up how they concreted the Acropolis). As for Dimitris Natsios, well, he is the leader of one of three (!) far-right parties in parliament right now, so nothing better could be expected of him I suppose.