so I've gotten a lot of comments about why I put Paul and Dany in the video when they are not white saviors, and, yes, there is a degree of clickbait in having them there. However, my point in the video that I believed was clear, but as I edit these videos myself, I can admit to maybe not explaining as well as I could, is that even when characters deconstruct that trope, it doesn't mean that it is effective. Nor does it mean that the audience walks away with a thoughtful opinion of the non-white characters that surround them. People have been discussing whether Paul is a white savior since the book's publication, especially since most audiences only read the first book. Literally, Denis brings that up in the clip I play at 45:06, that even Frank Herbert was upset that people saw Paul as the hero. People pushed back against multiple BIPOC creators when people would bring up Dany's imperialistic tendencies in the show and books. I am not saying these things just to say them. I promise. xx Princess

@ejacks3

19 күн бұрын

Hey Princess, thanks for being clearer about Dune and having some self-reflection. I appreciate you because that's more than most white male content creators who constantly label everything as "woke" or an example or DEI for clickbait. ☮

@gentlerat

14 күн бұрын

That was the whole point of the video. You made it pretty clear.

@rangda_prime

11 күн бұрын

I love how Herbert was so upset that he in a storm of fury and lack of an editor he wrote Dune Messiah which pretty much opens with "The war was over and Paul had killed over 61 billion people". But it didn't help much, as you point out.

@brokenrock13

8 күн бұрын

In the books, Paul wasn’t white. No one was. The only color that mattered was that of the eyes. I see a lot of people using that character as an argument for the white savior trope but it doesn’t really fit unless you’re specifically talking about the movies and series. Your analysis is still top notch as always though. I’m just sorry it took so long to actually watch this.

Paul is sadly the 8 millionth instance of a character meant to showcase the tragic pitfalls of power corrupting and yet so many people just think "oh cool, I sure would like all that power"

@Laeiryn

Ай бұрын

You know what film Nazis sure love for its imagery? American History X.

@katekursive1370

Ай бұрын

Matrix and Fight Club: First time?..

@bm6lgg

Ай бұрын

That is only partially true to the current two films. With the onset of Dune 3 adapting Dune: Messiah, the whole gist of Paul (aka the Messiah) will become apparent and clear for the audience.

@grantwithers

Ай бұрын

It was supposed to be a story about heros being bad for your health, not power corrupting. See herbert stating this a thousand times. He literally didn't believe power corrupted, he believed explicitly differently, that power attracts the corruptable.

@CT_Phipps

Ай бұрын

Assholes don't care if they're depicted as assholes.

The "w. man burden" being written in the context of colonised India is wild knowing how rampant sexual, physical, etc. violence was. Britain has never sent its "best" sons anywhere.

@samaraisnt

Ай бұрын

no it was written about Philippines specifically; but yes it was later applied to colonized POC.

@samaraisnt

Ай бұрын

applied to *all of us POC i meant to say, can’t edit but yeah kipling sucks.

@aintnoslice3422

Ай бұрын

if you truly believed that, you would decolonize yourself properly: get off the internet, off your phone, out of your home, stop using all the technologies, medicines, amenities of the modern world and go back to living as your ancestors did before colonization. But you wont, because its all a performative talking point. You love colonialism and its legacy when it benefits you materially. People like you have such a simplistic, reductionist understanding of colonialism, if you understand it at all, you don't bother to learn how colonialism happened, how it was perpetuated, how it was administered, the diversity of its experiences, and how or why it ended. "rampant sexual, physical violence was" in Colonial India, as opposed to any other point in its history. You think the experience of colonialism was noble oppressed brown people united in heroically resisting their evil white colonizers. Colonial critiques almost always come from a place of racial insecurity rather than to the actual experience of colonialism (how ironic that most of the most prominent anti-colonial theorists - Said, Fanon, Spivak, themselves or their families, directly benefited from colonialism).

@malum9478

Ай бұрын

maybe the problem is that those WERE their best. they are british after all.

@aintnoslice3422

Ай бұрын

@@malum9478 bigotry's cool when you do it right? always the double standard

Villeneuve solves the problem by letting Chani give explicit voice to the subtext when he could've just done what they did in Dune (1984) and make the cast 100% white, which *definitely* fixes the white savior thing and definitely doesn't make it significantly worse -R

@samiai8905

Ай бұрын

Oh man this comment is ironic considering your stance on actual resistance movements and white liberalism that the white saviourism is rooted from

@justarandomcommenter570

Ай бұрын

Well tbf in Dunes case im not sure if theres too much of a problem if its movie adaptation has a cast that is all white, black, brown or even purple lol Why? Because its set thousands of years in the future in a galaxy spanning empire where their ideas of race and culture share some similarities but have been vastly mixed, altered and different over thousands of years. They wouldnt have the same conceptions as we do today... *inhales for more explanation* Take the Atreides for example. They originate from Greece and have mediterranean influences plus Catalonian heritage with their culture of bullfighting (and in the 2021 movie they also have scottish influences). Duke Leto isnt even described as white in the books, but a man with "dark olive skin and black hair".... Even the Fremen arent a 1:1 of modern arabs. They are clearly inspired, but they arent only arab but a mix of ethnicities as their ancestors were wanderers who practiced a mix of zen buddhism and sunni muslim beliefs. They also had various influences from Arab/North African nomadic cultures and a bit of the Caucauses. Hell, even if a Atreides or Harkonnen were both white, blonde, blue-eyed and descended from european ethnicities, they'd still consider each other inferiors to be destroyed due to their hatred of each others Houses...Dune seems more preoccupied with ones lineage, clan, noble house or abilities than just skin color imo *spoilers ahead* Not to mention the secret eugenics plan of the Bene Gesserit to bring about the Kwisatz Haderach (their ultimate prescient superhuman) was a project that spanned centuries and deffo involved all sorts of ethnicities from many worlds. They needed all the best genetics from humanity as whole so they couldnt be picky even if they didnt like someones skin color lol. Paul Atreides just so happened to lucky (or unlucky) enough to become their genetic breakthrough. Just my two cents on it as someone whose read the books and seen the movies. Though I do also appreciate they made Chani the voice to oppose Pauls control of the Fremen because as his love she'd be more likely to see through his BS and because the books didnt bring up any Fremen perspectives/reservations on Pauls rise to power and it was only through Pauls internal dialogue that we explore the darker undertones of his prophecy..

@spiritualanarchist8162

Ай бұрын

In the book, it's far more clear the Paul becomes part of the native community , not so much barge in and save it . He's more a white refugee who has to fight and prove himself many times before being accepted as a 'space-islamist ' Fremen .The movies make it seem as if it all happens in a short time.The book covers years and years of Paul becoming a fremen , and remaining a fremen even after he takes the throne. The book is also about religious propaganda ,but that's another part of a long story.

@thekage100

Ай бұрын

Wait???? What do you mean?? What did they say about resistance and saviors? 😢​@@samiai8905

@thekage100

Ай бұрын

​@@justarandomcommenter570 L take in my book. I get your perspective, but it still has huge implications to steal other peoples culture and using it... because we DONT live in the future, but in the real world. Any good story reflects that. For good and in Dunes Islamophobic Orientalist case...very bad. 😅 Oh..i have also heard that the books end with this? Is it true that Arrakis is destroyed for Zionist Jews to take it for themselves? And get a new country? Ups.. Planet 😅😅

Chosen one stories come from the divine right of kings. Often, when people complain about the state of the world right now, they believe that the wrong people are in charge. The truth is that hierarchy itself is the problem.

@goodpeople25

Ай бұрын

And that's if we get chosen ones or other parallels. For example whenever people bring up the simpler times of "apolitical" video games I remember that the story of Super Mario Bros is just full on divine right. (also that all the background elements are civilians)

@Winter-Alpha-Omega

Ай бұрын

Couldn't be truer.

@nailinthefashion

Ай бұрын

But how can we progress if people use communism and socialism as insults and demonize free education, shelter, food and transportation? Ion think ppl are strong enough to break centuries of cycles tbh

@alexdetrojan4534

Ай бұрын

There has always been hierarchy...

@edwardlegend1564

Ай бұрын

i think it's an proper anarchist standpoint, valid

"Too many white dudes wanna be Paul" is basically the reason Dune: Messiah was written haha. Which clearly didn't work cause those same white men wanna be guy from Fight Club too. Also top tier video 10/10 good stuff

@nailinthefashion

Ай бұрын

The fact that people don’t get that and are cosplaying as him anyway, costume and irl, sadge, omegafail,

@Turalcar

Ай бұрын

There's a very small step from guy from Fight Club to guy from American History X.

@theaizere

Ай бұрын

people don't take literacy seriously enough

@Painocus

Ай бұрын

Iirc Herbert started writing Messiah before he had even finished writing Dune. It wasn't a reaction to people not getting it, he always intended to spell it out.

@lurkingposter

Ай бұрын

There is a guilty pleasure in being the edgy anti hero. Most fans online are comparing him to Anakin Skywalker and Eren Yeager (which implies media literacy). None of these characters are things we should aspire to be but it's fun to pretend.

“This is the side-chick manifesto.” Killed me 😂

On the topic of the Fremen being treated as unimportant by the story, we can adapt the Bechdel test (basic test that asks of a movie, ''do two women ever talk about something besides a guy?''). In Dune pt II, 2 fremen never talk to each other about something else than a colonizer. If they aren't talking to a colonizer, they're talking about one. In a movie that happens *on their planet*.

@moustik31

Ай бұрын

Excellent point!

@malum9478

Ай бұрын

this is a good point. we know shockingly little about the fremen despite paul spending months with them learning their culture. we never get to see them just sitting and chatting about some cultural inside joke that paul wouldn't get outside of the time they're making fun of the southerners' beliefs with the "Water of Life". i actually really REALLY appreciate that scene because it does show that the fremen are not a "world of hats" style monolith, but that there's differences in beliefs across regions and even generations. i only wish we could have seen more of that.

@grmgt

Ай бұрын

THANK YOU! That's why i still felt that there was not enough of a subversion since the oppressed barely get to talk. That's why i feel Dune would benefit from being a series (even better if it was animated, but that's another point). It would give us more time with the planet itself and the natives actually taking center in the narrative, making the subversion way more effective.

@moustik31

Ай бұрын

@@grmgt They did that for the new adaptation of Shogun and it has elevated the story big time, to the point where even if I skip the "w. saviour" character's storylines, I still get to enjoy a very good Japanese historical drama! Sidelining the w. dude was a good writing choice!

@grmgt

Ай бұрын

@moustik31 Wow, that sounds awesome. Shogun was on my watch list, but now I'll definitely pick it up. Thanks!

** movie spoilers** we didn't get an evil toddler in the new version but we do have a pregnant woman essentially plotting world domination with her baby bump and I think that's also fun

@swiftfated

Ай бұрын

Oh lol. I haven't seen it yet but I love that change.

@o.m9514

Ай бұрын

OMG, his sister did that as a child!

@SimonBuchanNz

Ай бұрын

There's one shot in particular where she's literally talking to the baby like she's a supervillain explaining her evil plan to the hero. It ends with her looking at some of her targets saying "we'll start with the weak and vulnerable ones" with the most evil face 😂 As over the top as that scene is, peak delivery by Ferguson.

@moustik31

Ай бұрын

Why is my 1st instinct to shout: "good for her"? 😭

@emilyrln

Ай бұрын

@@SimonBuchanNzit's sooooo good 😂😂😂

There's a slew of comments saying: "FYI, Paul is a criticism of white saviors and Messiahs, do your research", from people who didn't watch the video.... She addresses this in the video and adds further nuance.... At least watch the content before you criticize, which is the exact thing you claim she didn't do....

@nailinthefashion

Ай бұрын

No let them be court jesters we need some extra comedic relief

@glynislily

Ай бұрын

I literally watched the video because I knew she would have a more nuanced take than just misunderstanding the movie.

@katmannsson

Ай бұрын

Me who knee Jerked "aylmao Paul was supposed to be an indictment" then saw who posted it and went "She knows that, Ill shut up and watch"

@osmanyousif7849

Ай бұрын

If anything, I feel like the bigger issue is the fact that the Harkonnens were: 1. Really downplayed in the second movie instead of being the unstoppable force that they were in the first. 2. They didn’t get enough character development so we could establish the fact that Paul is going down a darker path. Because if they did, it would lead audiences to even question if Paul is really the lesser of two evils.

@mellowthm566

Ай бұрын

The cautionary tale bit only works with the texts viewpoint on prescience. That's why it's a white man's burden story, ahhh the tragedy of power but he must take it or something even worse will happen. The language of sacrifice is used a lot for the Atreides galactic genocide, at least their sacrifice. There's a lot of the logics of eugenics underlining the plot's mechanics as well- "human race must go through this or perish". As much as I love Dune it's best taken as a cautionary tale that's aimed to assuage those who take the prescriptive of the oppressor. And well later books magnify this. The kinda bleak fatalist fascism inspired a lot of other works like Warhammer 40k for a reason.

Pls never stop tapping your posters behind you when you’re making a point. It’s iconic

I think one of the worst parts for me is that there's still a resistance in literary / academic circles to confront this literary lineage of racism. I took a sci-fi writing class in undergrad where my teacher had us reading these pulp action novels without really analyzing the implications of them. What really sucks is that he was one of the only teachers who focused on speculative fiction at all, meaning I had very few alternative mentors in the subject I wanted to study.

@alexdetrojan4534

Ай бұрын

😅

@EzaleaGraves

Ай бұрын

There is no worse feeling than finding someone who loves something as much as you do for vastly different reasons

@bethany7904

Ай бұрын

i experienced the same thing in my undergrad sci fi writing class! it was actually genre writing across the board, but the teacher didn't care much for sci fi, so the only sci fi session he ran was for pulp fiction and there was just zero critical thinking involved

@MilesDashing

Ай бұрын

I'm sorry to hear that. I teach a course in science fiction, and we try to get our students to notice the colonial thinking implicit in a lot of pulp era SF. Two very well-regarded stories from that era are "A Martian Odyssey" and "The Cold Equations." The latter is all about "the frontier" and how tough it is out here among the colonial planets, i.e. Manifest Destiny in space. The former has to do with an explorer on Mars, which has a very "Darkest Africa" vibe, right down to stealing valuable artifacts from the natives and shooting them when they try to stop you. The idea that humanity can and should colonize other planets and become an interstellar civilization is itself rooted in European colonialism, and divorced from that history, doesn't make a lot of sense.

@samaraisnt

Ай бұрын

those crime fiction novels legit have more slurs in them than MFn Huckleberry Finn. I’m like, YO. That is how a cops think/act but u trying to get me to sympathize and walk a mile in this virulent racist’s “good guy” ain’t working lol.

I love how part of this video is GoT season 8 slander in disguise. I never get tired of listening to people explain how bad it is. Literally music to my ears.

We need more Black Scifi and Indigenous Futuristic scifi stories

@thing_under_the_stairs

Ай бұрын

I read that N.K. Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy is in pre-production for either a series or movies, but I'm not sure where it's at right now. I really hope it happens, and if it happens, I really hope they get it right!

@apinchofdisappointment

Ай бұрын

I’d loveee to read an indeginous mc in sci-fi

@A_M_Bobb

Ай бұрын

YES.

@nailinthefashion

Ай бұрын

Just watched “time traveling while black” by Aishyo the other day and felt sad that artists of color like me don’t get the resources necessary to make said products

@alexdetrojan4534

Ай бұрын

😂

It's a strange thing to have been a Métis kid, growing up with movies like John Carter of Mars, Avatar and Tarzan. When I was young, I latched onto them because I was excited to see Indigenous people portrayed as actors whose cause is worthy. Being surrounded by so many other stories that painted us as mindless savages whose very existence was a threat to a nebulous and narrow ideal of 'civilization'. Embarrassingly, perhaps due to my own proximity to whiteness, these read as anti-colonial narratives. When I got older, I saw that according to a settler author the only way Indigenous peoples could be seen as having a worthy cause was if they were leading us-our desire to simply live and maintain our lands was worthy, but we required the superior knowledge of Europeans to fulfill it. At this time, luckily, more Indigenous-centered voices emerged in liberation narratives like The Marrow Thieves, Nightraiders and Slashback. When I first heard of the adaptation of Dune-a book my white father cherished but that I could never quite get engaged in due mostly to its long-winded exposition-I was unenthused. I saw part one and I was mostly unimpressed: it was hard to follow and entirely too long. The only people I knew who enjoyed the film were people who liked the book. I was similarly uninterested by part two... until I saw it. What I had taken initially for just another white saviour film proved to be a clever subversion of the tropes and when I rewatched part one, it made a lot more sense and now I admire them both. This led me to read some of the books and I must admit: I like the Villeneuve films more than their source material. The decision of the books to stall introducing any vocal opposition to Paul-especially not from the Fremen-is one that I found disappointing. It's a poor use of Chani and doesn't make a particularly compelling narrative. That being said, I like the details of Herbert's world and I still make the occasional joke about cosplaying as Leto II when I'm bundled up in my blankets-the books aren't entirely without merit-but I still prefer the more outwardly critical text of Villeneuve's films which conveys Herbert's deconstructionist intents far better than Herbert himself ever did.

@samuelmcl.9474

Ай бұрын

Very well said, and I agree. I think many Dune fans would agree that Herbert really lost the message of what he wanted to say, and that the general weirdness of the books lends themselves to a wide spectrum of interpretations that Herbert likely didnt intend. I mean, the fact that he felt the need to write Messiah really speaks to that. I still wonder though if Villeneuve’s direction is enough critically as the movies are still being latched onto by right wingers as “good, classic cinema” for all the wrong reasons. Here’s hoping that he makes a Dune Messiah adaptation

@nicolehughes7863

Ай бұрын

I feel like this is a journey many marginalized people go through at various scales. I related so much to the initial naive gratefulness as a child of seeing black characters in any positive prominent portrayal. Then as you get older even though it's induced by societal ideologies there's kind of a shame that you feel for the propaganda? It makes me feel relief whenever someone else expressed a similar journey because it's like, "no you weren't stupid, just not aware yet"

@bm6lgg

Ай бұрын

@@samuelmcl.9474 Not really. Dune was never a work that catered to a single interpretation or message, it was as you have said a collection of Herbert's personal viewpoints regarding many issues of the society during his time aka the mid 1900s. The "messiah cautionary tale" one was sprung up by the audience due to Messiah and henceforth became it's trademark interpretation, when in the other two books and Messiah itself many other issues were put forward. Hence the many interpretations are completely valid and to say how Herbert lost the message is invalid, the entire original Dune community agreed on that sentiment. It is only because of a resurgence of new fans due to the films that these sentiments sprung up, but I guess that is the entire point of this video, the book fans whom had been digesting the work for years and decades would easily see beyond the immediate shallow interpretations of the newcomers.

the way I clicked immediately on the notification because US salivating over Dune while literally FACILITATING the genocide against Palestinians is making my head spin 😭

@sVieira151

Ай бұрын

It makes no sense either, cause the film and especially the books, are trying to make it clear that it's a TERRIBLE thing. I left the 2nd film feeling utterly depressed because of what it meant for everyone in the galaxy. 💀

@MeatbagKillaXD

Ай бұрын

@@sVieira151yeah the second book really drives home that Pauls Jihad was a fucking BAD thing and he isnt good.

@JaiProdz

Ай бұрын

Yeah I watched part 1 and part 2 in theaters pretty close to each other and it really felt like the fremen were allegories for the Palestinians in my opinion. Like I saw clear parallels that obviously could be subjective. But it's interesting to use a lot of muslim, Middle Eastern imagery language and culture within the Arab diaspora while being a very white movie in Hollywood currently being afraid to talk about what's going on in Israel

@SS4Luxray

Ай бұрын

LIKE HELLO 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

@MeatbagKillaXD

Ай бұрын

@@JaiProdz yeah if you look at the influences Frank Herbert talked about after writing Dune its very telling. Youre basically right on the money

I feel like Villeneuve's change with Chani was super necessary even if it was a bit heavy-handed. Giving her a more distinct POV was a good choice, and recognizing the conflict between Chani loving Paul as a person but also resisting him as a colonialist force AND choosing to GTFO rather than stay with him once she realized where things were going definitely feels like the kind of protagonist lens that pulled an admittedly obvious subtext straight into the text in a way that forces the audience to at least think about whether or not we're seeing a hero or a villain in Paul. And the list of GoT's fuckups when it comes to executing Dany's character arc is obscenely effing long, but I think you make a REALLY REALLY good point about the fact that they sort of portray her more villainous tendencies as something that developed because of the corrupting force of the Dothraki and other Essosi people while portraying her more heroic and "civilized" choices as something that was driven by her more "Westerosi" upbringing. I think GRRM's writing of her character can be criticized for the same issue, but GoT magnified it a LOT by borderline ignoring the fact that the Valyrian culture that Dany holds as supreme over all others is absurdly violent and racist in a way that even the most brutal and elitist cultures of Essos can't compete with.

@Winter-Alpha-Omega

Ай бұрын

The problem with Danna is that in the show, she's praised and painted/marketed as a #girlboss-skinny-queen. But then they realise she's gotta end in a more distasteful place, so all of a sudden, they rush her arc. Not only that, but they allegedly gave Emilia purposefully awful acting directions, not allowing her to emote too much and stuff. The Dothraki in the books are a god-awful copy-paste of the Mongols, too. That's one of my main issues.

@nailinthefashion

Ай бұрын

That’s why House of the Dragon shoulda came first or even been concurrent but no, we can’t have nice things we just have weird rushed projects made for greed, whatever

@user-qe6xo9oe7h

Ай бұрын

When we know that Chani is going to finish with Paul , at least that Villeneuve do other majors changes compared to the book , it seems a little pointless that she opposes him .

@Spongebrain97

Ай бұрын

Yeah I gotta say I really like how nuanced Denis Villeneuve was with Dune particularly with Chani and the Fremen. I read the original Dune book and forget some of the details but if Im not mistaken the Fremen are indeed ethnically diverse and have tan skin on average. The 84 Dune film just portrayed them as white people living in the desert with blue eyes but DV chose to again make them ethnically diverse and having tan skin which I think is appropriate. Also yeah I like the agency and proactive decisions that Chani has in Dune Part 2. In the book she doesn't have much character and is just Paul's girlfriend who goes along with everything he does and so I do like that DV made her more nuanced. She recognizes that the religion her people subscribe to was put upon them by colonialism and wants them to liberate themselves and not rely on an outsider. Although she does accept Paul's assistant and embracing of her culture she does call BS on his imperial ambitions which use her people as his tools. So while yeah Dune does have the white savior trope there, at least DV isn't tone deaf and treats the people and story with more nuance

@nadiapenn8480

Ай бұрын

Yes!!! That’s what I’ve been preaching anytime I hear (Zendaya) Chani slander! She is the stand-in personification for the schepticism needed for her people not to be yet again subjugated to further tyrannical rule. For her to be torn between her love for her land and her love of Paul is (what I thought was) a very easy to understand analogy. There is no Messiah there is only an invented construct to more easily persuade and take control of Spice.

“He not built for that shit really” is a perfect description of The Golden Path

You make a good point about the limitations of being able to critique the White Savior trope when writing from the perspective of the White character. N.K. Jemison (who is Black) and Courtney Milan (who is Chinese-American) have written really good stories from the perspective of the colonized rather than the colonizers.

@LindaDanvers

Ай бұрын

Which books of Courtney Milan do you recommend in particular?

@victoriabugado6272

Ай бұрын

@@LindaDanversI love all of her books, but I think The Devil Comes Courting and The Duke Who Didn't are particularly good.

i was going to make a joke comment on how long it would take for someone to comment “paul isnt a white savior” but i refreshed the comments and there already were multiple

@ShirleyTimple

Ай бұрын

That's because he isn't. He's a warning against the very idea of saviours in the first place. Anyone that read the text can see that because it's literally the core theme of the story, lol. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your narrative.

@breadordecide

Ай бұрын

Yeah but then paul’s white son becomes god emperor and thinks he is white saving the entire universe. Soooooo

@ShirleyTimple

Ай бұрын

​@@breadordecideask the citizens of the golden path if he was a savior...

@ddahlia3607

Ай бұрын

@@ShirleyTimple so this comment was made in response to how anytime I see poc discuss dune from a racial perspective, theres a myriad of comments that just say "paul/dune isnt a white savior narrative" with the assumption that the people creating these discussions 1)dont know what they are talking about 2)cant question if this deconstruction is working 3)are too dumb to do basic literary analysis. the fact that dune is a deconstruction of that trope is the reason why its being discussed in this video and its being discussed with historical racial analysis on if it was done well. i think its much better having a discussion on the nuances of that than to be very hostile for no reason

@ashikadavechand7209

Ай бұрын

Very well said. Thank you

I think as an Arab American my complicated feelings about Dune are only made more severe because Dune is coming out right NOW. I don't think it would leave such a bitter taste in my mouth to create a movie about Arab self governance and resistance to imperialism without any Arabs who speak in it if we weren't at the same time experiencing Western Media's absolutely abysmal reaction to Palestinian resistance. The Freman are characterized as susceptible to these violent rebellions because of circumstances created by colonialism, and watching in real time white westerner's unwillingness to extend that understanding to real Arabs is fucking exhausting.

@carlycrays2831

Ай бұрын

Sadly, I don't think there will be a good time for Dune for a long time. I think Herbert wrote this story expecting for things to get better and, well, yeah. Me personally, it's hard for me to say much. When you denounce Israel, you get flooded with "the Jews!" comments. And while I could understand that coming from angry Arabs and Muslims, it's always mostly from a ton of white guys, white guys who also hate Muslims because "9/11." You can't just fucking hate Israel for their idiotic and baiting policies. I mean, really, Israel, you can't tell me you didn't notice the giant fucking tunnels!

@krow5099

8 күн бұрын

And what makes it worse is they are white-washing this whole issue forgetting that after 9/11 xenophobia over the years has gotten worse for Arab people.

the SHIRT I am screaming

@Purplefoxsoul

Ай бұрын

If that shirt is your own design, it would be absolutely life-changing if it was on the Nebula shop

Paul Atreides wormed so Eren Yeager could rumble. :)

@fossilfighters101

Ай бұрын

+

Truly the best Skillshare ad I've ever seen! folks, DON'T PROFIT OFF FANFICS DON'T DO IT

@badflamer

Ай бұрын

I'M A MINDLESS SLUT FOR IP LAW THAT ONLY BENEFITS THE RICH AND HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH OF WHAT I LOVE IS LITERALLY FANFICTION OF OLDER SHIT. fixed that for you ^_^ fuckin yikes, imagine being a 'leftists' but still justifying your stance with 'it's illegal' as if the law had any inherent moral weight.

We can cheer Chani's characterization in the movie, but I do hold some reservations until I see what they do in Messiah. Because Chani is going to have Paul's twins. Villeneuve cannot make a change so big that that doesn't happen, and one of them is Leto II who will be an even greater dictator than Paul can even dream of being. So..... I really really wonder how he will handle the friction of Chani's love for Paul the person, and her disdain over what has been done to her people and planet by and through him. In a way it's so much of a departure that the bulk of the third movie almost has to be about how Chani "comes around" as Paul says to Jessica, because otherwise, that will be so out of pocket and near unbelievable.

@kateadams5574

Ай бұрын

I'm seeing the upsides, I've read too many of the books and went from seeing Chani as a cool character to a bit of a vagina tragedy whose ultimately there to have kids and die to motivate Paul so anything that makes that at least feel less derivative sounds fantastic to me

@xpascalabcd

Ай бұрын

I start to suspect that they won't have children. Villeneuve could rewrite the entire plot leaving Messiah as the last part of the story. Remember how in the first part Paul had a vision of Chani stabbing him? This seems to happen now, after the ending of Dune II

@AllTheArtsy

Ай бұрын

@@xpascalabcd maybe. that might be possible. especially because Denis is seemingly not interested in anything after Messia. he has said that he only wants to tell Paul's story. but i highly doubt WB is going to let him delete Ghanima and Leto II (and therefore the entire franchise's future) so....

@sthezh

Ай бұрын

paul’s visions of jamis seems to imply that his ability to foresee the future is fallible, so i would think that villanueve doesn’t need to railroad himself in that regard given it was pretty heavily emphasized in part 1. i think channi having kids with paul in messiah would definitely be an insane decision to make after rightfully altering her character in pt 2. i think in this case though, paul’s confidence in channi returning to him could be true, but as someone else mentioned, would include channi stabbing paul. technically correct that she returned, but in way that achieves villanueve’s vision of channi as an actual person and properly builds upon the visions shown to the audience

@hashtagwoke8506

Ай бұрын

The answer is that she's already pregnant, dies in childbirth, those children are then property of the emperor

On your argument in 43 min mark. That's the entire reason why Daenerys stays in Meereen. She saw how leaving Astapor caused the collapse of the system she set up and so she resolves to stay in Meereen so the same thing doesn't happen. That is what happens in the books and Daenerys doesn't just leave even when leaving for Westeros would be easier because she has the resources to do so. She isn't stuck in Meereen due to lack of options, she is in Meereen because she learned her lesson and doesn't want another Astapor.

@autje1970

Ай бұрын

This is part of her inner struggle (her 'human heart in conflict with itself') that is the core of her arc: her personal desires vs. what is good for 'her' people. Her final chapter in A Dance with Dragons mark the pendulum starting to swing from the latter to the former, and puts her on a darker path going forward Side note: I do think that before the end of the series, if we ever get there, the pendulum will swing back again and she will make the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good. 'To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.' Her darkest shadow will lie in King's Landing, on the throne. Ironic, since that is all she ever wanted. But only then will she see the light. The show, of course, didn't understand any of this.

@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195

Ай бұрын

@@autje1970 "Ironic, since that is all she ever wanted" - All she ever wanted is the red door and a house with the lemon tree.

@autje1970

Ай бұрын

@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 Maybe 'wanted' is the wrong term, but it is definitely what she makes herself believe she must do.

@siennahartle9069

Ай бұрын

@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195This is why I think she will either sacrifice herself in some Azor Ahai related magic ritual or else have her happy ending being that she lives in a nice little house with her closest loved ones with a red door and a lemon tree

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned how we never get to see the 'white savior' from the POV of those being controlled. The thing that always gets me about even 'deconstructions' of the white savior trope like Dune is their consistent treatment of the indigenous population. All the focus remains on the white (outsider) person and whether what they're doing is good or bad and yet the population they're controlling is always the exact same whether the story is saying saviorism is good or bad. The indigenous population is always still treated as 'savage' 'stupid' and desperate to be led by this outsider with no agency themselves. There's never a group not wanting to follow the 'savior' (at least not one that's shown in any sort of sympathetic light), there's never already a social movement going on within the group to 'fix' the 'issues' the white savior is coming in to fix (the subjugation of the Fremen, rape and slavery in Essos, etc) or at least not a group that's given any attention or screen time - it's all 100% focused on the savior coming in - whether in a positive or negative light. In the end, all these narratives - on both sides of the white savior good/bad aisle - agree on the indigenous population: they're easily controlled, begging for an outsider to lead them, and are a monolith. I think the only way Sci-fi/Fantasy could 'fix' the white savior problem is to actually write indigenous people as....well, people.

@kirkdarling4120

Ай бұрын

And any non-indigenous writer who tried to write from an indigenous viewpoint would be blasted for some kind of cultural sin, regardless of the fact that it would be impossible for an writer to actually be an indigenous space alien. Remember that despite the fact that Herbert drew from Arabic concepts to develop his Fremen, the Fremen are _not_ Arabs and the story is _not_ an allegory. Andre Norton, btw, wrote a number of novels from the viewpoints of characters of a world depicting the characters much like Native Americans dealing with a more advanced space-faring civilization. But one can't go too far with the idea that her stories are allegorical, either.

@ashikadavechand7209

Ай бұрын

This captured so many related thoughts I have been having about Dune in particular and fantasy series more generally, so well!

@aprilshighfantasysoul5891

Ай бұрын

@@kirkdarling4120 aahh yes, the 'I'm white so ppl are going to be mean to me no matter what I do, so why try to do anything with nuance or care!!' argument. A classic

@Palanthas-gx1ks

Ай бұрын

@@laze4534 What the fuck?

@kirkdarling4120

Ай бұрын

@@aprilshighfantasysoul5891 I'm not white, I just see the game clearly. If I want a story written from my point of view, I'll have to write it. Expecting a white man to write a story from my point of view is foolish, and the white man who tries it is just as foolish.

Love how it's very much clear that the "But Paul is no white saviour" crowd didn't even bother to watch your video but gift you some premium engagement 😂 You talked about the white saviour in Dune and Herbert's intentions not even 20min into the video and yet they accuse you of not doing your research and stuff. Aka they saw the thumbnail but never watched the video. You outplayed them and the YT algorithm! It's so funny 😂🤣 Also damn good video as always 💜

@ShirleyTimple

Ай бұрын

"🎶too many white dudes wannabe Paul🎶" My entire being was destroyed by such stinging analysis 😂

@Nessa2Bea

Ай бұрын

@@ShirleyTimple I came here to say this 🤣🤣🤣. It’s the best rejoinder to the “Paul isn’t a white savior” crowd

@selim6033

Ай бұрын

I'm an arab descendent, I'm a Latin-american, Im anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, vegan, etc and etc, and I don't think Paul is the white saviour, neither I wanna be Paul. And I don't think Paul is the villain just because. And I watched everything (and I love this channel). So stop saying those meme and repeated phrases thinking that u know something. xD

@Trefox87

Ай бұрын

@@selim6033 but then, what do you consider Paul? He seems to fit into a similar niche to Punisher, being used by the very people the character is meant to critique, and as mentioned in the video, is often heralded by toxic individuals as the ideal genetically superior guy, with the best skills of every major group we know of in universe (for the most part, since he isnt a face dancer or couple other random special things), something that many pretty awful groups claim about themselves as justification for their abuse of power and right to be above others. And while I don't see Paul as a white savior, he does fit as a critique of them as expressed in the video, calling out how his people (the empire) have dug their own grave by not understanding that they aren't just inherently better than everyone else, especially the fremen, a group of people who have hardened and adapted to one of the worse places in the galaxy to live both because of the desert and the Harkonnens. The meme is pretty much about how people are only engaging with the video from the thumbnail instead of listening to the content explaining Paul and Daenarys are used to try and walk a line between being white saviors and being true members of the different groups they occupy, be that Fremen, Essosi, Westerosi, or Noble House

Another three course meal is served and devoured! Thank you princess!

47:22 "But the white supremacists ate that s**t up anyway because. They're. Not. Smart." I love it when an essayist just comes right out and says it. XD

@awath94

Ай бұрын

im confused, what does white supremacists enjoying the northman have to do with them being dumb? its just a viking saga created in the modern age, anyone who is interested in vikings/scandinavian history is gonna be at least a little interested in it-

@ariwl1

Ай бұрын

@@awath94 White supremacists liking viking culture or anything really isn't the issue. The argument Princess is making is for when white supremacists decide they really like something and try to co-opt it to bolster their white supremacy, even though the original meaning and context of the thing in no way actually does that. They are dumb because they've decided a piece of culture is theirs just because they like it even though it in no way reinforces the beliefs and actions they try to claim it does.

So I’ve read the Dune chronicles many years ago as a teen and very much enjoyed them. I grew up as a white girl from a progressive and politically subversive family during the post-9/11 extremely islamiphobic bush administration and immediately saw what Frank Herbert was trying to say with this story. For context, I got threatened with violence by other students for refusing to stand for the national anthem in protest of the Iraq war. I recently watched Dune 1 and 2 with my now partner who is an Iranian American man. He hadn’t read the books and he left the theater loving the movie and seeing Paul as a hero. My man has been targeted by islamiphobic racism his whole life and did not see the criticism of white saviors that Dune is supposed to be. I think the fatal flaw of stories like dune and ASOIAF are that Paul and Dany are still the heroes of their own stories. We can watch as they do horrific things but as long as we’re in their POV seeing their motives and justifications, we will feel sympathy for them and even cheer them on. The fact that Dune is being as obvious as it can be in being a cautionary tale means it’s still going to fly over a lot of people’s heads to the point that you have to have over a decade’s worth of study in political theory and literary criticism in order to not get caught up in the charisma of the protagonist.

@gluehfunke1547

Ай бұрын

To be fair, Timothy Chalamet is half Jewish, half southern European, and vaguely mediterranean looking, and his dad is played by the latino Oscar Isaac. The optics of him leading a group of Arabs is different than if it were a blonde Scandinavian guy. And the optics of arabs fighting against chalk white, alien looking Harkonnens is different than Arabs versus regular white people. The racial coding is still there, but it’s been cleverly smoothed over.

@AlexReynard

Ай бұрын

"during the post-9/11 extremely islamiphobic bush administration" Oh no, we were afraid of people who wanted us dead. How rude of us.

@missanthropy6174

Ай бұрын

@@gluehfunke1547 ehhhh, I don’t know about that. I myself am Scandinavian and blonde and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone told me Timothee Chalamet was Northern European. He looks VERY white to me. My takeaway from stories like dune that are supposed to criticize white saviors and charismatic leaders is that it is inherently easy to fall for the protagonist. If you’re writing a story about a charismatic leader, then you have to write them to be charismatic and likable in order to sell their ability to gain popularity in their world, even if your intention is to critique them. If Paul was instead written as outwardly manipulative, untrustworthy, selfish, and cruel, then Stilgar would not have pledge loyalty, Chani would not even like him let alone fall in love with him, and the story wouldn’t work. By making him attractive and lovable to the other characters, Herbert also made him lovable to his readers. I honestly think that they could have cast blonde haired, blue eyed Austin Butler as Paul and he still would have elicited the same audience reaction of admiration and inspiration instead of dread and horror as was Herbert’s intention. Essentially, in order to do a good job writing the character, you have to run the risk of accidentally manipulating your readers the same way the charismatic leader manipulates the other characters.

@thekage100

Ай бұрын

​@@gluehfunke1547not if you look at it from A Zionist perspective...still a Mighty Whitey 😅

@thekage100

Ай бұрын

Ohh thats scary!! I am Muslim, myself and i HATED Paul, by the end..😅 But i also do like reading about history and politics 😅😅

There's an inverse of the Mighty Whitey trope where a modern (50's) soldier from the Army Corps of Engineers is struck by lightning and travels back in time to Medieval Iceland, where the Vikings are unimpressed by his poor carpentry and blacksmithing skills and explain why it's impractical to build a cannon with their technology ("do you *know* where to get all the ingredients for gunpowder?"), it's called The Man Who Came Early by Poul Anderson

@samaraisnt

Ай бұрын

reminds me of Hard To Be a God but the premise is he can’t intervene at all.

@malum9478

Ай бұрын

that's less an inverse of mighty whitey so much as a deconstruction of "superiority of the future" thinking. unless the story portrays the icelandic vikings as black/brown. in which case that'd be hilarious.

As long as people want… “relatable” protagonists in “exotic” settings, you’re gonna have this problem. Unfortunately, it’s very marketable. I think one solution to adventure stories could be having protagonists who aren’t White and avoiding having characters Mary Sue their way into being better at adapting to a place than… the people who’ve lived there for generations, somehow.

@stephennootens916

Ай бұрын

I think one of the big problems at least with film is they sort of half ass everything. Sure they put in a protagonist who isn't just another white dude but they don't seem to bother to put them in a good story or they write them horrible.

@mellowthm566

Ай бұрын

I'm looking for a fantasy epic that is decolonizing in plot/theme. (Don't say N.K. Jemisin already has her Earth trilogy.) Where if a character is foreign fighting a oppressor they experience being Other and culture clash and such but while they share a fight they don't live there and don't need power and cultural exchange and coalition are cornerstones of alliances. More fantasy needs thoughtful culture clash too.

@brutusmagnuson315

Ай бұрын

@@mellowthm566 Wrote a Sci-fi story series with similar themes, as a teenager. It was kinda hard to follow because there were too many cultures, complicated alien names and societies kept changing and shifting as technologies and cultures collided and caused catastrophic events

@andrewdussault2315

14 күн бұрын

The Shogun adaptation did this pretty dang well I'd say. John Blackthorn is good at what he is good at, and a capable main character, but he isn't any kind of Mary Sue, just a guy trying to navigate a challenging situation, and a tool in Toranaga's tool belt.

One big learning opportunity as a very white person from a very homogenously white city in Europe was doing an internship in central Africa during my psychology studies. I have been raised to think of myself as privileged and that my knowledge and education is some of the best in the world. I arrogantly assumed that I would have at least as much to give as I took from the experience, just as would likely be the case if I had interned in my home country. Only once I arrived did I realize how little value my western education actually had in that context, in part because most research on mental illness comes from western countries, not taking culture or financial situation into account. I used to think that my privilege and experience made me in some way responsible in the face of inequity, but what I think many people don’t realize, is how little value their experience can actually provide in a different context. It made me understand the whole white saviour complex thing a lot better, and I think many people never have the chance to be in the position I was in, to despite extensive education, struggle to be helpful due to a lack of knowledge about the culture and a lack of research. I still feel culpable for participating in the proliferation of inequality even just when grocery shopping, but I was cured of the delusion that I could ever actually improve anything by just going somewhere and sharing my knowledge without first listening and learning until I’m on the same level as the people in that place. In my defence I never had the goal of saving anyone, I just thought I’d rather do my mandatory internship somewhere interesting. But I think it’s always interesting to read how people try to overcome their ignorance, so I hope someone’s interested.

@fuowl666

Ай бұрын

Hopefully as a psychologist you don't fuck up your patients with your internalized racist guilt complex.

@klisterklister2367

Ай бұрын

@@fuowl666 How would this show up in a clinical setting with a patient?

@fuowl666

Ай бұрын

@@klisterklister2367 It could show up by ideological indoctrination as for example documented in this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/k2iqk8WbYJfccpc.html

@fuowl666

Ай бұрын

@@klisterklister2367 It could show up by ideological indoctrination. There is a video with the title "Heresies... how psychology went mad" that documents this in great detail. ( I wanted to post you the link, but my comment didn't appear.)

@fionatastic0.070

Ай бұрын

@@fuowl666Because being ignorant about racism is so much better/s

I will also add that some of us are too dumb or naive to recognize when something is a critique. I read Dune in high school and just didn't like it, had no idea it was a critique. I'd love to say I've gotten better 20 years on, but I still tend to read things literally. I think that people like me add on to this problem of authorial intent being lost.

The Tarly shit really did break my brain. Like... if the writers wanted to go "violence is bad actually" then fine. But if that was theme then why the fuck aren't literally most of the cast also damned by their bloodthirst. Jon really executed a child and Arya wiped out an entire House but their fine despite the fact that the narrative literally tells us that even cheerleading for those "lesser" executions will lead to Fascist-Commie-Totalitarianism or whatever they terrified of.

@MDoorpsy

Ай бұрын

Personally I think there is a difference between executing prisoners of war vs executing a traitor. Especially given Dany was the invading force. Sure, Arya’s storyline was kinda fucked by the time she left the House of Black and White, when they basically threw out her being a traumatized child using violence as a coping mechanism in favor of her being a cool ninja girl.

@SuperPal-tr3go

Ай бұрын

@@MDoorpsy I dunno. In both cases we have someone executing a person despite them being rendered powerless and to be honest Jon murdering Olly comes across as far worse because he is not only a child but also clearly doesn't present the same threat that Tarly does, traitor or no. And Dany being an invading force isnt really clear cut when she had the backing of the Tyrells, Martells, and Yara against Cersei who just blow up the Pope and burned a whole section King's Landing. That's why Tarly's nativist bs is just bizarre. It wasn't just her and the Dothraki coming to conqueror but the narrative frames it that way to make Dany scarier.

@MDoorpsy

Ай бұрын

@@SuperPal-tr3go tbf, Cersei going postal had absolutely nothing to do with Dany’s invasion. Even if Ned Stark had been acting as steward like Robert’s will said, Dany would have still invaded. The main difference, though, is that Jon is carrying out the laws that he had sworn to uphold. One can argue that those laws are cruel, but Jon shouldn’t be held wholly culpable for following them. Dany, meanwhile, took actions considered exceptional even by the standards of the setting. We’re shown that it is standard practice to take certain people hostage rather than killing them. For moral and strategic reasons. Dany killing pows plays into the narrative Cersei is trying to spin about her. And she executed an enemy general, someone with connections who could provide valuable information later, or be used as part of a prisoner exchange later should any of her own top brass get captured. Killing them doesn’t really accomplish much other than spreading fear. And while I could be wrong, isn’t 14 considered of age in the ASOIAF books (I think Olly is 14 when he dies)? Again, not defending killing teenagers, but Jon also joined the watch at 14 in the books, and would have been executed had he gone through with his desertion in book 1, an act that is clearly much more forgivable than murdering your commanding officer because he wasn’t racist enough.

@bai-ingabangura6388

Ай бұрын

Dang killing the Tarly’s was dumb of her but it wasn’t against the morals set up in the world of Westeros. She gave them a choice, switch sides or die. They choose to die. I Sorry but the Geneva conventions don’t exist in Westeros . They are no set laws or customs about how to treat prisoners of war. Remember when the Nobel northmen were begging Rob to kill Jamie. Rob only refused because he wanted his sisters back, not because he would be breaking so convention.

@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195

Ай бұрын

Let’s stop pretending like D&D had a purpose and a plan. They wanted to get awards by pointing the cameras to actors faces and that’s about it. That’s why most of the characters do a 180 every few scenes (except Sansa, she stays a terrible person all throughout but we’re somehow supposed to like her?) They changed the penultimate episode in post-production and didn’t even tell the actress, Emilia Clarke found out during a charity dinner she was holding for a private watching of the episode. They’re cowards who thought they are smarter than GRRM. And the only reason they keep getting jobs to ruin adaptations is because of nepotism

Great video overall, however I think I would disagree with book Daenerys being a colonial white savior or even a deconstructed one. She seems written to be the antithesis of both the Targaryens specifically and the Valyrians as a whole when it comes to her values, and her time in Slaver’s Bay seems to be specifically about her confronting the crimes of her ancestors rather than imposing a one cultural value system on another. Valyria was one of the primary historical forces of slavery in the world, including in Slaver’s Bay which was part of Valyria while it existed, and so I see her opposition to it as not a colonial white savior narrative and more a (mildly Zuko-esque, but not entirely) “undoing the colonial crimes of my ancestors” narrative. Like I think it’s not a coincidence that George had Kraznyz, the very first slaver Dany encounters in Slavers Bay, speaking Valyrian, I think he was trying to show that Dany isn’t actually an outsider. Ultimately though that’s *also* why I think her endgame isn’t going to be as a ruler or queen at all, in Essos or Westeros or anywhere (and even though I’m not a Mad/Evil Dany believer, I still doubt she survives the series) and that by the end of TWOW she’s not even going to be pursuing that goal(not that it won’t be an uphill battle from where she was at the end of Dance), because her *personal* values and ideals are so contrary to and in direct opposition to her Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry, and what it means to be a Targaryen/Valyrian ruler(in general I really think her endgame in the story will ultimately be magical, not political). I do think the show absolutely went all in on her as a white savior, and simultaneously went all in on her as The Queen (because yas slay girlboss and also D&D apparently hate magic so they just mainly ignored it), which I think both are at odds with her book characterization and story. And I think because of this a lot of Dany fans also uncritically cheer on the most white savior aspects of her in the show AND want her trajectory in the books to be Queen Fire and Blood Conquerer, but happily ever after on the Throne (usually married to Jon with Valyrian Supremacy Targaryen Restoration Babies), which I think misses the point of her character just as much as I think Dark Dany endgames do. Also, this is all assuming GRRM finishes the books, which is a massive assumption. Edit: oh also not a fan of “she *views* herself as someone who has previously been enslaved”. She unambiguously was sold into bridal slavery. She even literally wears a collar. She just got lucky that it wasn’t to someone worse. Wording feels a bit like downplaying that or make it more ambiguous.

@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195

Ай бұрын

It’s obvious Dany doesn’t want to rule, she feels the duty to rule. If she lives, she is not going to sit any thrones, no way, she is maybe going to be a military force at best. That’s what George wrote. She finds ruling tedious and she is an excellent battle commander and strategist. It’s the character he wrote. I agree with most else you wrote, but I am just impressed that this part is realised by someone

@northroseangel

Ай бұрын

@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 You’re exactly right about duty. She’s keeps getting side tracked because her sense of justice and duty outweigh her interest in the conquest of Westeros, so she stays in Slaver’s Bay despite not liking the act of ruling, but I think the freed people of Meereen are destined for self-determination eventually, and that’s going to influence her goals in Westeros (I.e. she can use her power to liberate people from the systems her ancestors created and expanded without having to impose herself as a ruler to oversee the new world. She doesn’t *need* to rule them to help them, which is a lesson she’s gonna finally internalize in TWOW assuming it’s ever released) I don’t think her role isn’t going to be as a military leader either, at least not primarily, in my opinion, although im sure her armies will play a part in the war against the others. I’m certain she’s Azor Ahai already in the books, and so she’s going to be one if the biggest parts of ending the long night, and I think she’s going to do that at least partially by breaking the Valyrian blood bond between people and the dragons. The dragons need to exist in the world as part of the balance between ice and fire, but as long as they’re magically blood bound to people they are a threat to that balance. Her restoring the dragons was half of restoring that balance, and by the end of the series she will finish the job. Personally, I think it will be self-sacrificially. This will be the culmination of her undoing the crimes of the Valyrian people. And while this does make her a Messianic figure in a sense, it’s not going to be one centered around leading or ruling masses of people as a god-queen, it’s going to be one who exists to restore the primordial forces of the natural world (Avatar-like). Shes getting caught up in the politics because she’s got a sense of duty and justice, but that’s not her endgame. Truly I don’t think it’s anyone’s endgame, even Bran’s, I think he’s getting *stewardship* bc he pretty much has the collective memories of all the mistakes of humanity in his brain so he can advise people to avoid making the same ones, but he’s not gonna be a *king* in the sense the show made him. The people of Westeros are also headed for self determination in a post-Valyrian world. Also I don’t think George is going to have the same double standard as the show wrt Westerosi nobles compared to Essosi ones. AFFC and ADWD already demonstrated that they’re just as cruel/repugnant as a class and “the good ones” are exceptions that do not outweigh the bad, with many being at best indifferent towards suffering. I do think Dany is going to clash with a lot of them, but I don’t think GRRM is going to take their side the same way D&D did. She’ll see them for what they are as an outsider. Again though, this is what makes girlboss white savior pre Westeros show Dany and also fan service headcanon Queen Conquest Fire and Blood Valyrian Supremacy Targaryen Restoration Dany so incredibly frustrating. They’re both such a disservice to her characterization, just as much as having her show up and burn shit down and be put down by her BF is.

@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195

Ай бұрын

@@northroseangel (I.e. she can use her power to liberate people from the systems her ancestors created and expanded without having to impose herself as a ruler to oversee the new world. - Valyrians stopped the slave trade. We have a quote in main series by Xaro Xoan Daxos and in TWOIAF about the wars that they fought. Slave trade was continued after the Doom. I feel like we keep mixing those up, there's a huge difference in a world where there is a different justice system. Beheading is not a cruelty here by default. Gilding rapists, cutting off hands for thievery - that's their moral equivalent of paying a fine nowadays. We keep taking as gospel what maesters say about Valyrians being cruel and conquerors, power hungry, but when we look at their actions when they get to power, that is not the rule, that's an exception. It is much more like Spiderman, they had great power and they felt the responsibility to use it to unite people. Winter is coming. Yes there's a couple of idiots like Baelor the blessed but for the most they were good rulers focused on the small folk and their well being. The opposite of Ghiscari where a good person or at least one that pretends to care about people would be an exception. I agree she is one of the Azor Ahai figures. And she is the only one that matches the prophecy completely. However George keeps saying that it can't be one person that saves the world but it has to be a common effort. That's what makes her different from a saviour stereotype. Also, and I see these rarely mentioned, slavery in TWOIAF is not skin colour based. It's more like Roman times, where race had a different concept, what we would call ethnicity now.

@northroseangel

Ай бұрын

@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 I don’t recall the bit about Valyria ending slavery, I’ll try to see if I can find it though. Either way I think I disagree, the Valyrians were on the whole bad for the world and a lot of the problems in it are a direct result of their actions. There are certain characters who do say things to paint them in a better light, and certain characters who may or may not exaggerate their cruelty, but I don’t think that’s the full picture. The fact is the freehold was built on slavery and the lasting effects of that can be seen in the slavery all over Essos, and things like the blood bond and the doom itself are evidence that what Valyria was up to was pretty bad. I do think Dany is meant to be the true end of Valyria. I don’t recall GRRM saying specifically that AA is more than one person, only that Rhaegar believed that the dragon needs “three heads”, but I think that he misunderstood this and that it refers to the three dragons. I think others play a part in the prophecy and ending the long night (Jon being a given) but I think AA specifically is solely Dany.

@badgaltinginnit

Ай бұрын

Fantastic response, I was thinking the same thing. I don't think daenerys fits into the concept of this video entirely. Those who know the depth and extra context that went into her character work know that.

At the end of the day so as long as the protag is cool and the antagonists are sufficient awful it doesn't matter how much a white savior the main lead is or how much death or destruction they cause. That violence or revenge becomes justified because the Empire/Great Houses/Slavers/Lannisters/whatever must be stopped. At the end of the day the only 100 percent way to really make it clear that these characters are to make characters like Paul or Dany complete losers who eat shit all the time. Because for some people being loser is way more repulsive than being a fascist or a tyrant.

@irondragonmaiden

Ай бұрын

Siiiiigh, I hate how GOT fucked around. Daenerys isn't a white savior. She's from the same culture and the slaves are not POC, they are of the same ethnicities as the rest of the continent and it's slavery like in antiquity. Read the books instead of watching D&D's shitty adaptation.

@suvinuoska

Ай бұрын

The Springtime for Hitler argument :) I can get behind that.

@ShangoTheGod

28 күн бұрын

People identify with the main characters so being a facist is associated with power while being a loser reminds them of reality thats why theres such a cognitive dissonence.

@darlalathan6143

18 күн бұрын

Another great "out-of-the-box" idea! Loser Protagonists are better deconstructions than Villain Protagonists and Antiheroes! Another idea is to make Paul and Dany characters the antagonists, with indigenous protagonists defeating them! The easiest way to show someone is the bad guy is if they are the guest-star in the hero's story.

LOL when 2/3 charcaters in the thumbnail are fantasy, not science fiction.

Poor, poor, Duncan Idaho. Off to watch this on Nebula!

I felt myself getting defensive about dune at the very beginning so I knew I had to pay attention to hear you out. I'm so glad I did, I learned a lot. Thank you

Paul is a cautionary tale of the Savior and blindly following them I agree. I quite enjoyed this adaptation of Dune.

I get really hyped whenever a new video essay of you appears online. Your commentary and insight in media is just so good! Thank you for your good work 💖

This may be my favourite video of yours yet. Incredible research, very well articulated, great stuff.

Thank you thank you thank you for the BEAUTIFUL subtitles!!!!! They help me so much with the names and because I struggle with auditory processing sometimes!!!! Thank you so much to taking the time to do them and syncing them with your video so it’s easy to follow along. I really really appreciate it!!!! 💖💖💖

This is a great video! It's disappointing how many people seem to be missing the point

I plan on watching the video later because my internet is so crappy, but what I find so amusing about everyone including dune in this. Is that right now the dude movie seem to be going through the same exact thing that happened with the Dune books. Whole point of the dune books is that it was critical of every single thing, particularly of organized religion and dogma and cultures. And in particular Paul is supposed to be like the horror of that. He seems like he's doing good on paper, but he's actually the villain. Frank Herbert wrote that he realized everyone was reacting the same way everyone's reacting to the movies and went all hell no and wrote Dune Messiah which further explicitly takes a shit on the entire pall seems heroic by making him full-on Space Hitler. That's why I can't wait until the Dune Messiah movies made, which is the director has very much expressed that he wants to do because I bet you anything. We're going to see a whole new wave of oh no dune has gone completely woke narratives when those were the actual original text.

@boia9084

Ай бұрын

paul was never space hitler. dune messiah had been planned and there was hinting of what was to come even in the first dune book. The atreides were never the "noble" saviors of arrakis, they are clearly shown to use and manipulate fremen to get to their end goal. Paul tried to do what was best but his path led to something he could no longer control, his religion quite literally got out of hands, he's constantly shown to be struggling with taking what he perceives to be the best path forward. because at the end of the day his interpretations of his visions are just that. his interpretations. he's not a villain. he's just not the noble fairytale hero. his fucking son turns into a dictator worm delving into eugenics and even he isn't your average villain stereotype. he had to do what was best for humanity, he had to do what his father couldnt do and become the worm god so humans could escape prescience and truly decide their own fate.

@anna2731

Ай бұрын

Then you should watch the video. Your points are adressed there..

@hambone.fakenamington

Ай бұрын

i feel like spell check failed you. good points but also DUDE MESSIAH!

@punkitt

Ай бұрын

Dude Messiah.......

@apinchofdisappointment

Ай бұрын

@@punkitt😭😭😭😭😭😭

Already watched on Nebula, but I’m commenting to appease the algorithm gods. This video is another banger! Especially the section about Dany. 👍 Keep up the great work!

Time stamps updated! TY for your patience. I have been trying to do this thing where I don't add like a bunch of disclaimers and caveats to every thing I say-but if you think I missed anything please lemme know down below

@samf.s.7731

Ай бұрын

Love your work!

@Lucidly222

Ай бұрын

I’m also a huge fan of your channel! thank for sharing well researched & thought provoking entertainment

@alexandramaclachlan7597

Ай бұрын

Heya lovely! What's the song you play in your credits? It's a bop :D Great video btw xx

@shzarmai

Ай бұрын

Cool video

@pplr1

Ай бұрын

Thank you for your thoughtful videos. I'd argue that black, hispanic, or __ saviors aren't a problem if they are part of ending or reforming an unjust and oppressive system. Lincoln was a white guy who did profound damage to the system of slavery-he needed people like Frederick Douglas (who should been in the movie about Lincoln). But in a system based on white males like 1800s political power was then necessarily an abolitionist President had to come in the form of a white guy. I'd argue something to keep an eye out for is stories that have a coalition of people from different ethnic groups. Ironically that is 1 of the things that Daenerys from GoT builds. Your criticism of her not understanding other cultures is 1 I've heard before and has validity, however there is no indication the democracy she started transitioning Meereen/Bay of Dragons to near the end of Season Six of GoT failed. In the books her anti-slavery efforts are being undercut (including by Hizdar who is a different character in the books than the show) but the show story indicates Meereen is something of a success. Having common people and former slaves of Meereen being empowered to "pick" their own "rulers"-as Daenerys said it-provides a possibility they will be able to empower rulers that ensure slavery stays gone and potentially deal with other things they (commoners and former slaves) may see as problems. Thank you for pointing out Randyll comes from a loyalist family and shouldn't see Daenerys as foreign. You may not have had time in the video to go into it but it is worse than that. He admitted Cersei blew up the Sept when Tyrion mentioned the death of Margaery Tyrell. So Randyll is supposedly following someone who destroyed 1 of the largest and most important temples in Westeros in order to supposedly protect temples in Westeros. And Daenerys having him executed would've looked bad if it wasn't for the fact that Ned Stark would've executed him too (via sword rather than dragon) for being an Oathbreaker to Lady Olenna. Plus Randyll turned down 2 chances to live while it appears the army under his command took no prisoners when attacking the Tyrell castle (only Jamie intervening allowed for Lady Olenna to be killed in nicer way rather than being tortured before execution). So even when they are trying to make Daenerys look bad the context of the situation still makes Daenerys better than Cersei. Back to my coalition point. 1 of the many things that bothered me about season 8 (which I argue doesn't have to be considered part of GoT due to the number of times Seasons 1-7 of GoT contradict it including Season 2 clearly showing bells don't mean surrender in King's Landing) is a multi-ethnic coalition headed by female season 8 Dany is portrayed as Nazis in the speech scene while white male duality of Jon and Tyrion (who plot to commit an act of violence-assassination is typically not pacifism-rather than talk someone who listened to both of them before back to reality) are supposedly the good guys.

Another banger from mother !

Thank you for posting your sources! My reading list continues to expand in the most incredible way, thanks to you and your channel. 🙏🏽✨

It's like expecting fantasy genre to abandon monarchy. Which is, of course, sadly impossible. Even some contemporary fantasy works don't adore monarchy, we still can't get rid of it like we did in politics.

@darlalathan6143

18 күн бұрын

You need Rococcopunk fantasy, set during the Age of Enlightenment, a historical period famous for democratic revolutions against monarchies.

I love your breakdowns!!

Thank you for this video. I enjoy your work and always enjoy the disscussion you start in my brain.

One thing i think gets missed about Dune...is that the Herbert saga is all about SURVIVAL. In that...he is questioning the lore and myths of religion, imperialism, genocide as a means ro survival, and I think I know where Herbert seems to land, but its always tough to tell considering he didnt finish the story.

@anacarla6888

Ай бұрын

He didn't finish the story?

@mickiemallorie

Ай бұрын

@@anacarla6888 not really... his son and kevin Anderson finish it based on Frank's notes.

@anacarla6888

Ай бұрын

@@mickiemallorie but by this you mean the other books, not the first 3 right? I am only reading the first one now, so I don't know much about them yet

@AllTheArtsy

Ай бұрын

@@anacarla6888 he died before he could finish the novels yes. there is no "first 3 books" they are a series of books

@anacarla6888

Ай бұрын

@@AllTheArtsy Oh, it's cause some people recommended me to only read the first three cause they said the rest isn't that good, so I thought maybe the other ones were a separate series

In the books, Dani comes off as more naive than anything regarding the Mirri Maz Dur situation. This was the first time she saw the cost of war (at least in the East) and she was rightly horrified by it

Great video- I really appreciated the exploration of the origin points of “19th/20th century adventure” and “lost world” type fiction which persist into fantasy and science fiction today. I’m reading Dune Messiah right now and enjoying it a great deal, but I have heard so many times that people were “disappointed” by its message- I can only assume those people were shocked to discover that Paul is a person of questionable morals after reading the entire first book and missing that part. I would love to see that ‘race in Westeros’ video some day if I get the chance, I think the Valyrians are especially interesting for many reasons you touched on briefly here.

Wasn’t expecting to watch this whole thing but this is a really well done essay, def gonna subscribe 🙏🏾

I really appreciate the recap at the end of the video. Thanks for your work.

Apologies for the very long comment, your video just inspired a lot of thoughts as I was watching it (as they often do). 20:38 THANK YOU! This is so often glossed over when people talk about this part of the story. This is a huge motivating factor, that people just sweep away because the narrative doesn't go deep on it, but it's so important to Paul and Chani's development. I was pissed it was taken out of the film version, though i have problems with that already. I disagree with the statement by Emad El-Din Aysha that the Fremen aren't able to get their act together. They aren't starting an empire, but they are literally working on terraforming their planet on the down low. Like, the whole point is that the Fremen are awesome (to a point where I think, if anything, it evokes the exoticism of the noble savage and makes them nearly superhuman). They are othered by the empire they exist in, and so aren't playing that game, but they have a plan, and a good one that they are working on with the Kynes. It's just gonna take a bit. It's not that they can't be successful without Paul (or that in theory Paul couldn't be successful without them somehow) it's that the combination of them is ripe for an exploitation of the indifference the empire has for the Fremen. I also think it's slightly more complex than just being him refocusing these tools onto himself, I think that it walks the line of the entire undertaking being one of manipulation of cultural narratives, and also the terrifying prospect of fulfilling them. Like, every culture has them, and in some way we need them to motivate ourselves when we are facing hard times, but they are kind of better as a dream than a reality. Because when a culture actually manifests their "destiny" things usually get really messed up. All the prophecies of the Fremen, even those from before the manipulations of the Bene, came true. Paul was the one. The world was remade. The cost was untold billions slain. (regardless of if it was by divine mandate or prescient manipulation) he achieved his vengeance, and threw down those who killed his father. How terrifying a thing it is to see one's dreams made reality. I think the weight of that is also present in the narrative. Basically, we all think we want our dreams fulfilled, but what does that actually look like? Or: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. 24:38 Exactly. They fall for the very trick that the book kind of warns against. Like really, if you think about it, Paul's actual problem is he realizes he's the protagonist of the story. He doesn't get to be like so many other characters and just exist in his drama, he actually knows what will happen when he does the things he already wants to do (or doesn't). So he's trapped by knowing that he's got this massive influence, and cannot fail to somehow be relevant. It would be maddening, and the whole point is not only should no one put that much power in one person's hands--and in so doing lose so much of their own autonomy--no one, certainly no one we want in that position, should *want that* . 28:10 unlike the cost of life that was already a huge part of making the British Empire what it was at the time, lol. I kind of admire how he (or his protagonist anyways) was so admiring of her, as to think that this one Woman In Charge would easily topple the entire nation and like take over the world. Like, "We can't have women running things, they'll be *too good at it!* " I agree, I think Dany is an allegory for the chosen Protagonist, and all the pitfalls of that "greatness" and the sublimation of individual agency of the people in the face of their glorious purpose. Just like Paul. I think Black Targs would have been really interesting, though I don't know if George would be up to the task of employing that with grace. I also think that we will se a very different read of Dany's end in George's books (should we ever get them). 44:39 Can I say though, that I think he did so at the expense of the Fremen? He positioned the belivers so they came across like rubes, like fools who would delude themselves into seeing what they wanted to see. But the book never makes idiots of the Fremen, these are intelligent and capable people. They are however living such an incredibly difficult life, that they are prone to the manipulation of their hopes. It takes such a big confluence of events and the machinations of Paul and Jessica (some unwittingly) just to get them to allow Paul to live, let alone to actually follow him. And Chani! The thing that pisses me off about that is that if they were going to give her this role, the role of the skeptic (something I think is dubious in Fremen society as it is) I wish we could have actually explored *why* . Her mother was an Imperial Climatologist, a very important scientist (something not even mentioned in the movie). And she was a believer! But Chani isn't! That's huge. There's so much more there than just a sort of anti-outsider influence. Chani herself is partially an outsider. And I think sadly in this adaptation, she actually also falls into the same void of Paul's character as in the original, except this time it's as a foil. We know *that* she opposes what Paul is becoming, and how it is transforming her people, but we never really get a good look at *why* . Why are there skeptics, why is that allowed by Fremen society, why is there space in this world of such harsh extremes for such a disregard for the systemic belief that guides an entire people in a never ending war against colonization? (I also think the adaptation is too focused on Religion, instead of Belief. Secular or religious, humans are prone to falling prey to belief, and that was at the heart of what Herbert was exploring. The Bene Gesserit, the Empire, the Spicing Guild, The Atredes, The Fremen, they all had their belief that they were sinking into, and that belief was frequently condensed into a singular individual that they allowed to rule their thinking. 50:15 God, so did I. I wish this adaptation had embraced the Weird a little more. Though, I think Dune should be a series, not a film. So it can address the nuance you speak of. I think so much of what you're talking about, aside from just race, can be ascribed to the mythos of Kings returned and otherwise. Like we have this really deeply ingrained need for a sort of saviour figure who just sits on all our shoulders and knows what we need. And I think that desire, including how that figure is often but not always a White Male, is at the heart of the narrative lessons of Dune. It's a thought trap so many of us fall into, it's just there are some who do not see the prison as a prison, but a paradise. Thanks so much for the really interesting video!

I really appreciate these sorts of videos as they explain things in such a way that is understandable to my pepega brain, it also goes into the nuances of certain characters and their portrayals rather than outright just black and white judging whether they are good or bad. I think it promotes depth to not only the characters in the media we consume but in us and the people around us as well after all every piece of media we consume tells a story even if the story I'm referring to in particular isn't the story printed on the first through last pages. While I do not particularly like to go very deeply into the political and uncomfortable natures of topics, I find your content very challenging to certain of my beliefs in a way that helps me to develop them in the aspects I've always wanted to develop them in. Keep up the phenomenal content and have a great day.

I always enjoy how insightful your videos are, while always presenting them in such an understandable format! Sidenote, I find it interesting that you can always tell if someone has read the ASOIAF books or not, simply because show only fans don't call her Dany. Using my best friend, A Search of Ice and Fire, I found that in her own POV across all books she appears: "Dany" is mentioned 1188 times, and "Daenerys" only 143 times. The name "Dany" (one N) never appears in any other POV. Potentially this is because GRRM couldn't be bothered to write her rather hard to spell name each time.But I like the idea that to her, she is Dany, the girl longing for the house with the red door, for a home, or the idea of home. To others, she is Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Mother of Aliases. It kind of sums up why the show misunderstood her, as there she is only called "Dany" by Viserys before he dies, and then by Jon, upon which she remarks that only her brother called her that, indicating that it is not how she thinks of herself. To me, this reads that show Daenerys has internalized her status in a way that doesn't quite exist in book Dany. Book Dany at the very least tells herself that her conquering is out of desire to find a home, whereas in the show if feels like something she does... Because she feels she's supposed to?

@autje1970

Ай бұрын

To be fair, the only POV in direct contact with her is Barristan, and he is too honorable to think of his queen as 'Dany'. But it does give insight in how she views herself. Her repeated "I'm only a little girl and know little of {insert subject matter here}" is part her playing the other characters, but in part also what she believes (she also repeatedly giggles 'like a little girl').

idk if this is weird to say but thank you for the recap section at the end, it was nice

Thanks for all the reading recs!!!!! ❤

man i was JUST looking for info & stuff on the white savior trope, awesome. love your videos also

There is a guilty pleasure in being the edgy anti hero. Most fans online are comparing him to Anakin Skywalker and Eren Yeager (which implies good media literacy). None of these characters are things people should aspire to be but it's fun to play pretend.

@carlycrays2831

Ай бұрын

The amount of people who still think Anakin wasn't the bad guy disturbs me.

@lurkingposter

Ай бұрын

@@carlycrays2831 I've never seen this, tbh.

@carlycrays2831

Ай бұрын

@@lurkingposter You go onto the Star Wars forums. It gets wild

@caro.jiejie

Ай бұрын

@@carlycrays2831 I mean, imagine growing up as a slave, then having to say goodbye to your mom, the only person that was there for you as a kid, then being indoctrinated by the jedi (who are awful as an organization imho), being told to like not form attachments which is kinda out of your control, then losing your mom fr, all that and more while also being manipulated by the main bad guy into not trusting the jedi and being terified of losing the person closest to you, your wife... I would do some trash things too if that was me 😃 So like, yeah, bitch didn't do exactly nice things as a result of that, that makes him a bad guy, sure, but we can't ignore that fact that he was also kinda a victim of cicumstance in a way. The two can coexist. That's how I see it anyway lol

14:33 I learned bookbinding from Sea lemons’s KZread videos. They are really helpful.

I still send your PBS video about the Dune series to people (in lieu of reading the books, sorry) so I'm SO EXCITED that you made this video too!

You did that. Well put together video 👏🏾👏🏾

I haven't read the book (yet) but I have heard that the Fremen were all very 'monolithic' in their view of the prophecies and Paul. Which I think the film made an interesting choice to increase the diversity in beliefs within the Fremen (to 2, which is not a lot but better than 1!). I think that's a step in the right direction with these kinds of depictions but it's still a very simplified view of culture (granted they're meant to all be magically brainwashed by a fake religion)

@lzmunch

Ай бұрын

Brainwashed over the course of several centuries though

@RainbowDevourer

Ай бұрын

Brushing aside the "fake religion" if the Fremen is a very modern thing to do. This fake religion was initially seeded by people who were extremely good at what they did, and it very much turned into a "real religion" for want of a better word and backfired against its creators. I can almost see it as an analogy to the US supporting anti-Soviet terrorist groups who, once the Soviet Union fell turned back on the US, and the US was *pikachu-face*

Complete aside, you have my favorite outro music ever.

I love love love that this essay doesn't have background music. Thank you, Princess W!!!!!!

Amazing video, very insightful and I love the examples that you used

i think you really nailed the dune issue, but honestly i think it just might not be possible to deconstruct or even really satirize the white savior narrative with any measure of subtly, because no matter what you do people will still project onto and idolize them 😭

@carlycrays2831

Ай бұрын

I feel like that was even part of Dune Part 2. Didn't matter what Paul did, he was doomed, partially just because of the people around him. When everyone wants you to be something, you're just sort of fucked.

@irinaiturri

7 күн бұрын

it's simple, make a white savior an antagonist, make them fail miserably, make them uncool, make some of the non-white characters much more interesting and some of them more cool The perception of power and coolness matters

I think GRRM's Targaryens also have a Dune situation, with the chosen one being either Jon or Dani, who both certainly have a Paul Atreides situation... With Jon being the messiah for the people beyond the wall, and Dani for the slaves in Esos. We know how it ends and it's not great for either. Just like Paul, and exactly how you described, they've been set up for this role even before they were born.

@K.C-2049

Ай бұрын

I think the ending of the show could have been brilliant... if it had been given more time to develop. could have had some really dark political themes with Dany as the mad queen, no longer able to resist the "fate" of her family (or maybe a self fulfilling prophecy kind of thing - she tried so hard to avoid it she drove herself mad), Jon murdering Dany and Bran just waltzing through the chaos that HE had orchestrated, or whichever powers that he represents, to the throne. it could have been a really interesting reflection on autonomy vs pre destination, especially when pre destination is manufactured, so to speak. instead we got season 8 :(

@MDoorpsy

Ай бұрын

Kind of a third example is Mance Raydor. Former member of the nights watch that became King Beyond the Wall. Yes, technically he is stated to be a wildling by blood, even though he was raised by the watch, so I guess its kinda more a Moses situation, but I don’t think that detail is ever mentioned in the show, so as far as viewers know, he’s just another Westerosi telling the ‘savage wildlings’ what’s best for them.

@samf.s.7731

Ай бұрын

​@MDoorpsy Thats actually a very neat observation, thanks for sharing!

@samf.s.7731

Ай бұрын

​@@K.C-2049it could have been phenomenal! Those would have been great options. If she thought that everything she did was justifiable because she can do no wrong, because she's the "chosen one"... I mean, we only get one scene with that priestess and Dani didn't seem remotely interested in the prophecy, unlike her elder brother who as far as I am concerned was a total Paul Atreides. Heck, even that younger one was also cray in that regard and he didn't have a prophecy that he knew about (I think). This would have been more thematically in line with a deconstructed white savior. But no, we took a woman who survived horrific stuff because of her own iron will to keep living and made that a reason for her to go mad? Didn't make sense...AT ALL. Not good enough to morally justify an atrocity like the KL genocide

@K.C-2049

Ай бұрын

@@samf.s.7731 and I mean it would have tied into the prophecy stuff about Jon Snow coming and doing stuff too right? i can't remember the exact details but as I recall there had been a prophecy that he fit the bill of, that never got incorporated into the show. huge bummer!

Great Video. I also think some of the reason why critiques are being misunderstood as celebrations is because media mostly still just shows the bad examples, without showing better examples/positive representation. So we always see problematic scenarios and rarely positive scenarios.

The way I am so glad I waited to watch this when I had to savor all the beautiful gems, such a great take on Paul and honestly the community surrounding Dune and it's like. Loved this video.

Great per usual, I'm curious if there are any examples of PoC male saviors? I find it interesting we always fold white women, correctly, into white savior narratives but the question of male saviors is never examined the same way as the racial lens and that is (I'm guessing hence the question) probably as, if not more, prominent than female saviors.

Great analysis!! I love your work!!

Beautifully done and spot on💯👍🏾🙂❤️👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

Best ad plug i've ever seen

Another excellent essay! That conclusion is so clear. I want everyone to hear it. Please make a short!

Another banger video Princess, love your work.

I love your clarity and insight.

Haven't watched this vid yet, but I just know it's gonna go hard!

@kezia8027

Ай бұрын

YUP!

Things get so hopelessly bleak for the Fremen and the planet in book 2-3. Book 3 even plays with themes of climate change, which is an even bigger concern NOW. I imagine it is going to become a big theme in the third movie - turns out fundamentally changing a planet's climate has some downsides D:

@BobtheX

Ай бұрын

I think Dune as a franchise has Climate change as it's ultimate theme. Even up to the fourth book, the ultimate point is that civilization is shaped by the landscapes they form on.

Thank yoiu so much for these wonderful essays offering insight beyond my own.

I wish every sponsorship spot was as entertaining as the one in this video. The first time I can say I enjoyed the sponsorship spot along with the content. 👍 Also, Happy B-day month.

36:57 Lindsey Ellis was right on the money when she basically said it’s crazy that more Westerosi aren’t bending over to dethrone Cersei (either for Dani or against).

@LarthV

Ай бұрын

Because she may be a bloody tyrant - but this tyrant is one of them. Seriously tough, that is actually an important lesson from all kinds of historical eras: People by and large rarely do that. Instead, they often fight tooth and nail to protect the status quo for fear of being even worse off otherwise.

@patrickblanchette4337

Ай бұрын

@@LarthV I mean, wouldn’t Dani be The status quo (Considering that her family ruled Westeros for hundreds of years while the Lannisters have only ruled for less then 50 years)? Regardless of that, considering Cersei blew up a center of Westerosi religion, wouldn’t she be seen at the opposite of the status quo? Anyway, thank you for the reply and the insight into human psychology.

@LarthV

Ай бұрын

@@patrickblanchette4337 Supporting Dany does mean a change in the system, for better or worse, and people who have stakes in the current state of the realm (that was what I meant by status quo) will be afraid to loose that. Also her big problem is that she comes with basically no natives at all, only people from a different culture, implying a "foreign takeover", where spreading rumors is easy ("She will make the Dothraki lords instead of you!") Now in the books (sorry for mentioning that, I have to) all this is bypassed by a claimed son of Danys eldest brother Rhaegar, who actually comes with an army of Westerosi exiles, thus giving him a lot of "locality" or "nativity" in his claim. But the show itself does not, and Dany still is coming at the head of an army of foreigners. And definitely Cerseis destruction of the sept is a big plot point that was just "forgotten" (*sigh*). The show was just bad at this, so I am not sure if we can use logic to explain things (although they should be held accountable for being unlogical), but still she is someone brutal they "know", while Dany is someone they do not "know", which may be the problem regardless. Things may just not be dire enough for the people to risk exchanging someone brutal they know for someone they do not know. Besides, I was not trying to be snarky or the like and apologise if I had appeared to do so...

@patrickblanchette4337

Ай бұрын

@@LarthV No apologies needed & thank you for your great insight into this matter😊.

I’d love for you to do a video on the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. It’s lowkey a guilty pleasure lol.

Great video. Thank you for your hard work!

So nice to see someone pluggin coldcrash pictures

Strange fact Paul was inspired by the first President of Mali Modibo Keïta

@bluewilliams4911

Ай бұрын

Also Lawrence of Arabia. A literal white colonizer

@ThePythonfan

Ай бұрын

That’s exactly what I’m saying Paul was not even inspired by a white savior because he has clear Greek and Armenian connections which are not the typical Anglo Saxon white and that’s something people of that time in US definitely stood by

@joshuasummers7554

Ай бұрын

And what's you source on that?

So much, thanks. I love your examination of this. I didn't carchbthe "quiet part spoken outloud " part in GOT. The othering of Dani. I did see the white savior part. Looking forward to seeing Dune two with the outside view . Really appreciate the fact that white supremacists are too stupid to see criticism.

@irondragonmaiden

Ай бұрын

Daenerys wasn't a white savior in the books. She is from the same Essossi culture that accepts slavery and rejects slavery and wants to get rid of it. D&D are right-wing hacks.

That last image drove everything home. What a flawless breakdown of things! Thank you, always. Will definitely become a Patreaon as soon as possible!

I didn't get to watch either Dune movies but I read the book because you announced you were doing a video on it, glad I did! (Also Princess I don't know if you read the Wheel of Time books but I feel like you'd like unpacking Tuon as a character, there's a LOT to unpack)

Have you read The Traitor Baru Cormorant by Seth Dickinson? Its genuinely SUCH a good seties. Its a really really good look at colonialism through a fantasy lense that remains quite realistic. Seeing Baru's land be conquered without overt violence just by introducing fiat currency, and then building schools on the islands to teach the children Incrasticism, its all very interesting. The story takes some extremely fascinating turns and the author does such a good job on the themes. Themes and worldbuilding are my fav parts of reading SFF, and Dickinson is one of my top 10 authors. Its a sapphic story as well, and there is just soooo much to love about the books. I feel like they taught me a lot. If youve read A Memory Called Empire Im lowkey convinced it started as a genre-bent fanfic of Baru and she filed the series numbers off and made it her own. Both great books. Def worth checking out if you havent already. Im so excited for the final book. Im guessing the title will be Martyr maybe? The Traitor/Monster/Tyrant/Martyr Baru Cormorant has a really great progression to it.

More Indian Scifi and Southeast Asian* sci-fi would be welcome too. Perhaps something like what Magi did in fantasy could be created for a Middle Eastern science-fiction world.

I love your content, you never miss.

I first read Dune only about four years ago. I was really rooting for Paul, thinking it was going to be a story of challenging and changing destiny. When that doesn’t happen and it’s clear the tide of violence is going to be unleashed just like his first visions, that really sobered things up. Overall, I feel like leaders, politics, religion, etc can all have some positive effects and be leveraged for good, but can also spiral and cause more devastation amplified by the people’s consent or implicit consent by silence and inaction. True good is what we do at the dinner table, how we treat our neighbors, and how we spend our time. Much outside that is beyond our individual power, but there is great strength in decentralized action from the ground up. Great video and analysis. Appreciate you putting it together and touching on the wider topic of white saviors. I learned new things.