I accidentally called Alexander Sigg, Arabic and I apologize for not catching that. Arabic=language, Arab=ethnic group! Also thank you all for watching and commenting xxx

@wisdommanari6701

4 жыл бұрын

House Martel is crazy in the best way possible. You do not come into Dorne and try and change how they rule. It will end horribly for you and I love it. The only land that was able to resist the *Divine* Conquerors was a land full of brown people that treat inheriting between the genders as equal. And they have Dornish law.

@angellover02171

4 жыл бұрын

It was pretty cool to find out Alexander Siddig is half Sudanese.

@nicanornunez9787

4 жыл бұрын

I find more problematic the better written and erotically descriptive rape scene, in particular cause it ends in a consensual note, is not a good way to end the rape of a minor. The book scene was difficult to read for me cause there was more deepness to Drogo and there fore I was making more empathy with him. Plus Drogo is a kinda Genghis Khan, and dude rape half of Europe and China so I guess to me was more normal the simple minded version, however in the book it is pretty clear he is some representation of a Mongols, in the bit before the marriage, his clothes, his oils, the relationship with the horse, don't know if you said that later in the video but that is just historical black face, is just predating on the middle east fear of white people, Muslim Darth Vader level of bullshit. They couldn't put a scary strong Asian that wasn't mathsmart, they couldn't show some Atila or some Xanadu, or some white ostrogoth white barbarian tribes, or Vikings.

@seanwalker6052

3 жыл бұрын

This shit was fuckin genius! Loved how it enlightened an challenged me. You got a legit like and subscribe from me. Hope to have a convo with you person to person one day. Great work!

@wardam9131

3 жыл бұрын

I'm arab and I have trouble with it too. Apology accepted!

One of my favourite intervieuws with george mrtin is when somebody asked him why he had al those gay characters in his book and he simpely replied. Because I noticed they exist.

@squamish4244

3 жыл бұрын

He wouldn't write a homosexual scene with men though, while he was happy to write one with women.

@svenkobus4356

3 жыл бұрын

@@squamish4244 He did state somewhere in an intervieuw that he kinda regreted that.

@lemmh2

3 жыл бұрын

@@squamish4244 It's one thing to include such characters. It's another thing entirely to take your mind to a place where they're having sex. Do you write at all? You're sorta living vicariously through your own sexual emotions to put something like that into a story. Good for him. He wrote all of this stuff himself and was obligated to include no one but the characters he wanted. He still went out of his way to offer representation. But good for him for not playing fan service to every single conceivable demographic out there. There wouldn't be much of a story.

@norminpontu9905

3 жыл бұрын

valar I’m glad that double standard exists

@Gloomdrake

3 жыл бұрын

ApplachiaMarv I feel like a straight man writing gay sex could easily fall into “this woman was clearly written by a man” territory

Arianne not being in the show was a crime worthy of a king’s landing shaming

@upchuckles243

4 жыл бұрын

​@Metsarebuff 22 I disagree. Cut Quentyn for sure, maybe have him just show up to meet Dany in one of her scenes. But Arianne only has a handful of chapters in AFFC. She could have taken all the time from the Jaime/Bronn/Sandsnake BS. Add Jaime to Brienne's story.

@wardam9131

3 жыл бұрын

But thank god she was not!

@bdrago5420

3 жыл бұрын

Arianne would have either been murdered by the Sand Snakes or ended up as a total psycho bitch like most powerful female characters in the show. Maybe we should be grateful that she just doesn't exist in the adaption ?

The point with Dany in the books is that she thinks she helps the people and is a saviour, but ultimately the whole Slaver's Bay is in utter chaos because of her. The liberated cities are ridden with murders, usurpers and taken back by the slavers, Meereen is rampant with famines, diseases, assassinations and is besieged by a huge coalition, because Dany has no clue how to actually help people who have been slaves.

@thefoxamongwolves9843

4 жыл бұрын

That's the impression I got too. It's kinda a criticism of the "white hero" rather than perpetuating it.

@sallylee4924

4 жыл бұрын

@@thefoxamongwolves9843 I agree. And I thought this intention was very clear.

@TheOdysable

4 жыл бұрын

similar to Hillary Clinton killing Gadhafi in Libya

@Loomx5

4 жыл бұрын

Its a very heavy handed critique of US foreign policy in the middle east. Good intentions don't mean shit if you imprint your rule of what you think people want onto them over what they actually want.

@playablue

4 жыл бұрын

And thats because white suprmeacy riuns that show... lol and the lynching of one of the only actually “black (biracial like) looking characters” on the show... Priceless a touch longterm when watched on DVD

Honestly I just get sick thinking about Game of Thrones... so much wasted potential, so many characters and storylines destroyed. But I do love watching you talk about it. You brought up so many good points on this video. The ending clip made me sad all over again

@Princess_Weekes

4 жыл бұрын

@amym5062

3 жыл бұрын

Agree! This is a really insightful and thought-provoking commentary, love it!

It’s even more annoying that the writers said their inspiration for the Dothraki were the Native Americans. 🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️

@Becbullaney

4 жыл бұрын

As if "the Native Americans" are one monolithic cultural group lmao 😪

@TheMorganVEVO

4 жыл бұрын

@@Becbullaney EXACTLY! Those guys were so lost. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so frustrating.

@flippanties

4 жыл бұрын

That makes zero sense knowing that culturally they were originally based on the Mongol horde

@YourMajesty143

4 жыл бұрын

Either way, they made the Dothraki just as disposable and misrepresented them just as bad (as "savages"). They wasted every opportunity for character development and retribution for Natives.

@JM-mh1pp

4 жыл бұрын

Seriously!? I was sure it was mongolians... with the whole clan thing, expert horsemen wondering the plains and enslaving/raping their way into annals of history while being both the biggest AND the most stagnant empire in history (and competition is fierce on both fronts)

You make a lot of good points here, particularly your lambasting of "make your own". Especially when, in my experience, the people who say that always followed it up with "A book openly about gays, by a gay? Egad! That's entirely too political for a general audience!" ... Because nothing says 'equality' like it being "political" to discuss your own experience, but "not political" to deliberately remove, minimize, or censor it from any media it's featured in.

@purpleplanetary

2 жыл бұрын

Everyone being able to depict you except you

The fact that they did not allow Dorne to leave the 7 kingdoms to be their own kingdom at the end . . . . but allowed the north too . . . .was problematic as hell.

@james8194

3 жыл бұрын

Dornes independence is never a plot stop trying to look for things to scrutinize

@omenriver2399

3 жыл бұрын

@@james8194 sssssooooooooo ..... you never read the books......

@bimbowithadegree420

3 жыл бұрын

@@omenriver2399 this is such a good reply 🤣

At last, someone acknowledges it. The portrayal of indigenous-coded people in fantasy is a very pervasive problem for the genre, that isn't discussed as much as it should be. It's a dichotomy of either noble savage or the bloodthirsty savage for the most part.

@lemmh2

4 жыл бұрын

"...pervasive problem." Fucking solve it then. Write something you want, instead of demanding other people write shit you want. These writers can use any damn dichotomy they want without your approval. If you want something different, *write something different.' It's not rocket science.

@chloe._.

4 жыл бұрын

@@lemmh2 Dude chill, they're just pointing stuff out

@lemmh2

4 жыл бұрын

@@chloe._. So am I.

@sugarpearl9781

4 жыл бұрын

ApplachiaMarv Stop talking out of your fucking ass. We are solving the problem. Plenty of POC write fantasy and contribute to the genre. And if white writers choose to include POC in their stories, they open themselves up to criticism based on these depictions from the actual real life people they’re writing about.

@lemmh2

4 жыл бұрын

@@sugarpearl9781 I 100% agree with you. You are free to offer any sort of criticism you want. Just like I'm free to tell you it's fucking stupid and that it's up YOU to depict people how you want to, nobody else.

SO glad you covered Dany's wedding night. I came to the books after being upset at the limitations of the show, so I read the Martin version of it after first seeing the D&D version. And while reading the book version, which has all those nuances you mention, I started getting really pissed off. With such good source material to work from, I'm just shocked that D&D instead made the choice to, as you say, remove all the complexity of the Drogo and Dany relationship. Like, in the show, why does she love Drogo? The only instance we see of his being cool to her, other than when he killed her brother, is when he responded positively to a bunch of new sex stuff she tried out on him that her handmaiden taught her. And even that is basically like someone reading a Cosmo article about "12 Ways to Make Your Man Moan" and then trying it out on some guy, and then falling in love with him when he actually moans. And yet the show actually plays this as THE empowerment moment for Dany.

@WarKeineAbsicht

3 жыл бұрын

Jack Frost No, you clearly missed the point of the entire comment, which was about Dany’s feelings, not his

"In Dorne we don't hurt little girls" Ellaria Sand dosn't care

@edienandy

4 жыл бұрын

Everywhere in the world they hurt little girls.

@ch5635

3 жыл бұрын

@@edienandy the only time in the entire show I was 100% on Cersei's side. She was absolutely right about that.

The sad thing, is that this won't even be the last TV series based on a fantasy series that will totally miss the mark on race. There's an Earthsea TV series coming """""soon""""", and the books take place in an archipelago where everyone is either black or brown. And you JUST KNOW they're gonna make Ged a white boy.

@merrittanimation7721

4 жыл бұрын

They did so in the SciFi miniseries too.

@worrywirt

4 жыл бұрын

Oh please god no, both adaptations have been critiqued on that before!! There are basically no white people other than the Kargs

@merrittanimation7721

4 жыл бұрын

@@worrywirt And the Oskillians, but they're basically irrelevant.

@Black_pearl_adrift

4 жыл бұрын

Because apparently black protagonists aren't "marketable" yikes

@lemmh2

4 жыл бұрын

Then create your own damn materials and stop expecting *other people* to do right by your arbitrary sensibilities. What's stopping you from writing the next big series like A Song of Ice and Fire? Y'all all in this comments section complaining that other people have to do things that you approve of, or they're somehow failing you. Nobody owes you anything.

The Sandsnakes on the show are all the same character, but three times, while, in the book, they were reunited by their father, among his dozens of bastards, specifically to cover many bases at once with all their varied expertises.

"Make your own!" I would genuinely love for network producers give a BIPOC-centered fantasy show the sheer scope of resources that GoT had.

Damn, everytime I see Alexander Siddig as Doran, I get sad. The wasted potential..

@darkservantofheaven

4 жыл бұрын

He got shitted on in Gotham. He would've been a great Ras Al Ghul, but they fucked up

@CSGraves

3 жыл бұрын

Almost as wasted as the last 20 years of his uncle Malcolm's career. Criminy!

I have also read the books and in them it is very clear, when Daenerys finds out that the cities she has liberated have fallen back into slavery, that she decides to postpone her move to Westeros because she cares about something else other than her selfish motives. Also, she gives specific orders to begin changing the economic patterns in Mereen so that there are other options besides the slave trade. But to expect those changes to happen overnight is a bit far fetched. I hope people are not implying that it would have been better to allow slavery to go on simply because changes are hard and revolutions are many times followed by counter revolutions. Martins has also been vocal about the fact that in the books, the slaves are not just people of color but whites as well since the entire idea came from the salve trade the Romans used to practice ,which was not based on color at all. So the white savior complex should have been stated as show only.

"Having the people who traumatized you say 'I saved you' is a slap in the face." Awesome point :))

Yeah, pretty much from the get-go I could see the show not treating the brown characters well at all. Even before the rape scene in the show Dany gets the horse and says to tell Khal Drogo 'thank-you.' In the book the dude translates and Drogo smiles. In the show 'there is no word for 'thank-you,' in Dothraki.' Bullshit. And honestly, in terms of the book I get people saying 'well a thirteen-year-old can't consent,' which is true, but in the patriarchal royal world they live in, pretty much none of the women or girls can 'refuse,' their husbands. It's not consensual for Sansa to undress in front of Tyrion (and she's eleven) yet people don't seem to fault Tyrion for that yet they do Drogo. Full disclosure Daenerys was always my favorite character because I felt I could relate to her shyness and timidness more, but she grows into a much stronger person. Infinitely more complicated and I wouldn't consider book Daenerys a 'feminist' character necessarily, but it was just my reaction to her at the time.

@oliviawilliams6204

4 жыл бұрын

Lot of people don't get Tyrion, They entirely buy his own hype and think he's the cleverest, smartest most noblest little man ever. They don't see his flaw, they don't see he's actually one of the villain of the story

@JM-mh1pp

4 жыл бұрын

@@oliviawilliams6204 to be fair in game of thrones it is hard to find a...not villain... It is like warhammer 40k...just different flavours of douchebags.

@oliviawilliams6204

4 жыл бұрын

@@JM-mh1pp yeah kinda, trough even Martin called Tyrion a villain back when he promoted Clash of Kings. Something he would not do for the Stark for example

@JM-mh1pp

4 жыл бұрын

@@oliviawilliams6204 That much is true. But one has to remember that you need at least some level of intelligence to scheme. Were starks good or just dumb as rocks? From my perspective going to the (arguably) the second most powerful person in the kingdom and going "I will expose your evil deeds" places you firmly in the dumb camp.

@alexsmalley9993

3 жыл бұрын

Oh my god I forgot about that. That is some total bullshit, I don't think a human society could function without being able to express gratitude.

For years I was gaslighted for being overly sensitive when I called out racist, sexist and white saviour trope storylines, primarily by white people. When the final season arrives all hell breaks lose and all of a sudden their concerns are universally validated and supersede mine. D&B did a horrendous job!

@taotaostrong

4 жыл бұрын

Passive Agressive I feel you. 💞

@marcogianesello6083

3 жыл бұрын

no it's just your complaints were bullshit to begin with, the last season was bad, the problem wasn't that suddenly everyone became an idiot and started complaining about how there wasn't enough "RePReSenTatioN", no we were more concerned with real artistic merit, not with appealing to people more concerned with their own asinine bullshit "political" whining then actual quality, gtfo

@msgirly6827

3 жыл бұрын

@@marcogianesello6083 oh shut your dumb ass up. Idiot.

@marcogianesello6083

3 жыл бұрын

@@msgirly6827 still right do, sorry

@msgirly6827

3 жыл бұрын

@@marcogianesello6083 nope, sorry

It sucks because George is one of those writers that sees color but doesn't condescend. He treats people like people, flaws and all. The show simply was taken over by writers who didn't have a fraction of George's talent between them and couldn't do anything but deliver the most ham fisted ending.

I absolutely adore your devotion to House Martell

@Princess_Weekes

4 жыл бұрын

Preach on Dorne. I was so disappointed on how it was handled in the show. You are so spot on about how race is handled in this show. So frustrating. Great video.

Whenever the whole "make your own" thing comes up I always think to myself how awesome an afro-fantasy series on the scale of Game of Thrones would be. I'd love to see something like that. Not that this should detract from pushing for more diversity and better representation in existing genres and franchises mind. Both are good things and they're not mutually exclusive.

@msgirly6827

4 жыл бұрын

I would love an afro-fantasy series!

@SwordAndWaistcoat

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, a historical drama would be fantastic as well. I've always wanted to see the mythological founding of the Mali Empire adapted into a series or movie. The combination of myth and history would be amazing to see.

@emily-crawford-soprano9181

4 жыл бұрын

@@SwordAndWaistcoat Dude yes!!! I had a kids book about Sundiata and I can't believe it hasn't been made into prestige television yet, he had a literal hero's journey childhood.

@lesyam3032

3 жыл бұрын

Try the Children of Blood and Bone series by Tomi Adeyemi!! 2 of 3 books are out and it’s a wild fantasy ride in a West African setting, lots of magic and politics, very heavy at times. Also try Akata Witch, Black Leopard Red Wolf, and Beasts made of Night

@carysbebard3690

3 жыл бұрын

I really love the Dreamblood series by N K Jemison which is essentially what you're looking for, epic fantasy setting, complicated adult characters who make big political moves, in an afro-fantasy setting. And the prose is compelling too!

Just speaking as someone who was in an abusive relationship where I identify some parallels between my experiences and what is depicted between Danerys and Drogo, I'm less sympathetic to the idea of the nuanced relationship I've been told they started out with in the book (I've only seen the series... well most of the series). I've learned that there absolutely are men out there who are happy to do sexual things that the other person does not want as long as they can construct enough within the event to give plausible deniability and tell themselves it must have been consensual. Like pleasuring their partner and making sort of a performance out of checking on their partner in a particular leading way while almost consciously ignoring the context for why a person would feel unable to say no. I had laid motionless expressionless beneath my ex as he caressed and nuzzled me and fingered me, then asked sort of leading questions about if I'm enjoying it knowing that I had issues with the nature of our sexual relationship and had a hard time saying no, too many times for me to feel anything but suspicion towards storylines which try to frame similar encounters as grey areas. Like what I experienced was definitely nuanced in a sense of the word but I'm on edge about how the framing of "nuance" has so often been used to just dismiss dubious consent. My ex absolutely saw himself as a virtuous caring lover even as he shoved my issues with what was happening in bed to the side because he wasn't prepared to reckon with them and I feel like these attempts at nuanced portrayals just kind of ended up being validating for him while we were together, especially when I remember how he spoke of their relationship in the book. And then how when we watched the series together he referred to me with the pet names Drogo used for Danerys... It all got really messy and weird and it's hard to detangle where my reasonable trauma-informed opinions based on the parallels begin, and my personal anger towards him ends given how much he liked that series and how watching it was specifically a part of our relationship (for instance I kind of hate dragon age because of him but I recognize that most of that is irrational... most of it). I can appreciate the moves Danerys took to gain power in the situation but I feel like that kind of gets lost in the rest that's surrounding it. That said I recognize that portraying Drogo as being a more traditionally cartoonized rapist in the books wouldn't have been any better and would have pretty explicitly pulled on the tradition of portraying men of color as animalistic and dangerously driven by lust. I feel like writing that plotline in was kind of just a mistake from its foundation. I think Martin had the intent to have a serious discussion about both race and consent but at least on the front that is relevant to me I can't say he hit it right. Kind of off topic since I'm not really talking about race issues (esp as my perspective there is not the most valuable), just sort of tangenting off your initial point in the video. 100% am with you about the way the showrunners handled race, it was just bad with no real way to excuse it.

@nanamiharuka3269

3 жыл бұрын

Corbinite Wow I have a very very similar experience as yourself. And it is really hard to detangle isn’t it...how much was manipulative or just ignorant and selfish. Tossing aside the other persons feelings and convincing them it’s ok when there should have been more patience and self-control and understanding. *sigh* I wish you luck friend and that you can find a partner that will be everything the past one wasn’t.

@CorbiniteVids

3 жыл бұрын

@@nanamiharuka3269 thank you

@moustik31

2 жыл бұрын

THIS. My abuser also asked me whether or not I "liked" him raping me. Lol. Abusers are the most fragile human on Earth. 🙄

It's worth noting that GRRM is a primarily a Sci-Fi writer and one that doesn't tend to write happy endings. His books tend to be very nuanced and complex with many shades of grey and no clear moral right or wrongs - and if it ever seems like there's an obvious answer or correct thing to do, it usually turns out to be absolutely terrible and horrific. He does like to subvert expectations, but he likes to do it in ways that really make us think about those expectations in the first place. He's said the ending of ASOIAF will be "bittersweet." And knowing that he's an old hippie whose books have almost all had the constant theme that war is bad, I fully expect that everyone looking for a great Battle for the Dawn like we got in the show is going to be very very disappointed. Sci-Fi has a particular focus on exploring the human condition and character exploration and development - much more so than fantasy. And I think that's also why fantasy nerds are so confused and will ultimately not be satisfied with the books (the show disappointed everyone). ASOIAF is very political and very Sci-Fi in its approach to telling the story. Even the more fantasy elements like dragons are approached in the same consistent Sci-Fi fashion. Reading the books, it's very unclear if Melissandre's magic is actually magic or just tricks. We don't know exactly what was going on with Berric Dondarion and now Lady Stoneheart - we don't know what's animating them. We don't know if they are still themselves or if it's a more complex and specific version of the wights that the Others raise. Warging is consistent and has specific limitations. Fantasy tends to be much more fluid and relaxed. And particularly lazy fantasy writers often change established rules in order to get themselves out of plot holes or just have a convenient magical rescue at just the right time cuz the writer couldn't figure out how to get them out of the situation they wrote them into. JK Rowling in particular does this a lot in the HP series.

As a PoC fan (former) of the show and a fan of the books, even though at the moment I was extremeley angry at the finale, I do realize the issues where there before S8...Specially in the way they handled Dorne.

@SomeAHole

4 жыл бұрын

Wait are you also a former fan of the books?

@Whosaskin

4 жыл бұрын

@@SomeAHole No, I still like the books but I was like ride or die for the show.

@oliviawilliams6204

4 жыл бұрын

What they did to Dorne is the reason after season 5 i was only hate watching the show and stopped buying merch and Blu-Ray (trough season 5 i was like "Maybe Season 6 will be good and redeem the whole thing will see if it's good i will buy season 5 and 6 bluray" Then Season 6 aired and i was like "Nope!!"

@Whosaskin

4 жыл бұрын

@@oliviawilliams6204 It only grew worse from there, I kept watching because by that point I was too attached to the characters but it was getting worse and worse...S8 was just too much for my Stockholm Syndrome but even before that it was getting worse.

@Whosaskin

4 жыл бұрын

@@oliviawilliams6204 Worse because some of my favorite book characters are Dornish. You have no idea how glad I am that they never got to adapt Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn, Ser Gerold Dayne...

Dorne got screwed over the most. And I don't think Dany was ever gong to be a good ruler, more so in the series when she says something like "I'm not a politician, I am a queen" but then goes on to talk about how she wants to "break the wheel" like no you don't, your whole claim is based on the wheel you say you want to break. IDK I loved this videos but it reopened a lot of wounds and now I'm mad lol

Kinda amazed I haven't seen anyone talk about race in GoT until now.

Hi, I'm here from Dominic Noble's stream, loved you on the stream and decided to check you out. Your videos are very entertaining and informative, thank you for your takes

this is such an articulate and well-made vid! I'm so glad this came up on my recommended

I'm so, so, SO happy I found this video, and someone who speaks so articulately about all these issues, has read the books, and has seen the show. Love the content!

This video was needed. I have had SO many issues with portrayals from book to show and you gave me more to think on. Thank you 💜

Just recently discovered your channel, still got the Empires in Cartoons videos to watch, but I saw the number of views and subs just after finishing this one and really wanted to share some love and support. I hope your channel quickly grows bigger, you really deserve it, and I'll definitely promote your content. Frencheers !

Aside from hitting every point flawlessly, drinking pumpkin eggnog on camera *voluntarily* is powerful as hell. Subscribed.

So glad I found your videos! This is so well articulated and insightful! I'm still making my way through the books, but it's so cool to hear a comparative deep dive into race in the books and the show, and the weaknesses and strengths of both. I think the POV characters Martin chooses says so much, and the nuance you highlight in this video is part of why the story still interests me even though the ending of the show was honestly just irredeemably boring.

About 6:30 I'm confused, when you say it seems Drogo WOULD have treated Dany like an equal/respect because after the first night, Drogo raped her repeatedly. So much so she thought of killing herself... I agree, GoT has major issues. But I've noticed a number of book fans seem to forget Dany's actions to make their sex more of what she liked because she was being raped by Drogo.

@user-hb4zz4gh5e

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly

20:04 - Yes! I been waitin for Melina to get in dat ayess! 🤣🤣🤣 Dorne got done dirty in GOT by Beniweiss (pronounced like Pennywise)!😞

"They brought Bashir onto the show just to murder him."

I love you on “it’s Lit” and so glad to find your channel!!!! May the binging begin!! :D

First video of yours I happened upon, and definitely warrants a subscription to the channel. You make great arguments, presented in a concise, easy to watch format, and a fellow House Martell fan to boot.

I really appreciate you noted the ages of the characters (at least bookwise). There are many complicated things in the GOT Multiverse but so many reviewers, namely male ones, forget that many characters are children in the first few seasons/books

Glad to see you posting again.

Man, I can't believe this video has 16k views as of July 2020. I am subscribed now :) Your perspective is super cool and your personality and passion are infectious. Come on algorithm!

Dang it's so relaxing to listen to you bc there's no background music and it's just on long take

As a HUGE GoT fan of color, I have to say THANK YOU for explaining how we can both enjoy being in this ‘space’ while still feeling apart from it. This has been my life as a black nerd and you articulated what I could never quite put into words. You’ve gained a subscriber!

18:27 Yh the writer explained that when they called for extras when shooting those scenes in Morroco. Funny enough Moroccans turned up who were predominantly tanned or brown skinned.

@idontknow4950

4 жыл бұрын

Not really though, that was a lame excuse, in the script it's made clear that was a pretty deliberate decision. As you can see here: www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-scripts-secrets-cersei-pregnancy-tyrion-daenerys-snow-on-the-throne If you scroll down a bit you will find the part about Dany white savior moment and how it was kinda deliberate I mean Dany realizes to be a saviour as she becomes a smaller white point in the crowd of brown people, it's almost like the writers were painfully unaware about how racist that shit was and thought it was good aestethics or something like that. And if you don't trust the article you can ask people or go check for yourself (if you live or visit LA often) the script at writers guild foundation in LA. Also Moroccans on average don't look that shade of brown, they have a more slighter skin color, enter "Moroccans" in Google's bar and you will see for yourself what I mean, you will see that they are not that brown on average and they have plenty of lighter-skinned people.

@MALIK-sx2qq

4 жыл бұрын

Moroccans like any Africans come in a variety of browns to black due to Morocco housing hundreds of different African ethnic groups .

@_tea_cakes

3 жыл бұрын

Either way, you have to have the intuition as a writer to recognize the message that that can portray. They could have worked harder to fight the “brown people poverty porn” image especially coming from a show with millions of dollars in their budget

Thank you for articulating the issues I had with the Meereen storyline but hadn't figured out the words for!

I love this vid. You brought up so many good points that I’m disappointed for not seeing them earlier. 😕👍 You have a new subscriber!

What I don't get is that the Dothraki are the worst society in the books in terms of the world building not holding up at all. I mean, if you are always killing people for fun at weddings, if you put young widows who could still be useful to society and even bear children again in an isolated sanctuary where they can't be married again or take up an occupation useful to society again, etc., that's just a society that's self-defeating, with no internal logic. The fact that they only or mostly eat horses doesn't add up, since they also need them for riding. They don't have trade, in that they have no concept of "I give you x and you give me y, not like when you feel like it or when your omens favor it, but immediately", but they also loot and pillage? Like why would a society that does not believe in trading, only "gifts", ever care about stealing currency? They're also portrayed as superstitious about the sea because horses can't drink its water.... Like what? It's like, Martin must have done a bit of research about real-world nomadic societies like the Mongols, but then his version of one oversimplifies, exaggerates, and makes them seem stupid? There are (irl) nomadic herders, nomadic hunter-gatherers, and nomadic traders, and many nomadic cultures are some combination of the three. Eating horses mostly, having no concept of trade, and having no rule against murder = you could not have a functional nomadic society.

@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682

3 жыл бұрын

They don't believe in money that's not the same as not believing in trade. The Widows you speak of are The Dosh Kahleen and they become shaman style spiritual leaders and are specifically the wives of dead khalis. This is not a common practice with Dothrali widows generally. They are a nomadic warrior people their not going to learn a trade.

@naomistarlight6178

3 жыл бұрын

@@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682 It seems like their main problem is that they're a society entirely written around helping Danearys with her character arc, both by providing her confidence and helping "take care" of her pesky brother, but also everything they do tends to serve to create obstacles for her, and that makes the Dothraki seem like all their customs are just that, putting a stumbling block before her for no reason. It does say they trade, but then why is "I give you my sister in marriage for an army" any more foreign a concept to them than "I give you a bushel of wheat for a bushel of apples"? It's not a consistent culture. I never said all widows in Dothraki culture become Doth Khaleen, but calling a 14-year-old hot girl a "crone" and assuming she has the wisdom of an elder is, well... silly. Again, it just serves as a stumbling block to facilitate Danearys' story. Considering that khals are prone to violence and fighting each other nearly constantly, they would all have a lot of young and still fertile widows. And just because a nomadic society is nomadic, that doesn't mean people do not specialize in certain trades. They would still have weavers, dyers, herders, blacksmiths, horse breeders, merchants, etc. if it were a normal functioning society. But since it's all just there to prop up Danearys' character growth, and is abandoned after she leaves them (especially in the show, ugh), that is why their culture just doesn't make sense and feels poorly constructed/ contradictory to nature and reality.

@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682

3 жыл бұрын

@@naomistarlight6178 except division of labor to the point of developing specialized trades is something that mostly takes place in sedentary societies that form cities and have a system of mercantilism. The Dothraki's only city is Vaes Dothrak. The fact that the Dosh Khaleen are fertile is kinda irrelevant. The Dothraki don't have inherited leadership roles so their not needed to maintain a dynasty of any kind and the horde as a whole takes women from who ever they raid, trade with take tribute from or conquer. Same the horses there are so plentiful amongst the Dothraki that it's ok to eat them. So there highly sustainable. As for the omens having to favor war? The Dothraki are consistently shown spiritual and superstitious people whose priestesses are prophets. That's not crazy but it may be a ploy. Khal Drogo keeps a manse one that's decorated with fine art from the world over, drinks wine where Dothraki tend to dogmatically reject the "finer things in life". And he specifically picks a Targaryen bride. I think his omens would've come from Ilyrio that a divided seven Kingdoms was ripe for the taking. The assassination attempt just pissed him off and accelerated his plans. Viserys's death was not plot convenience but the logical conclusion of his insecurities and madness leading him to do something literally deadly stupid. And its perfectly in character from what we've seen from him. So it's not so much an inconsistency to let Dany and what befalls her move the plot because they do understand trade. But there are might makes right society. So Drogo taking the stance that Viserys will get his due but only when Drogo says he will is not the same as not understanding the nature of the agreement. Waiting for good omens will also go over better with his people than, "I'm taking advice from foreign spies."

@Sandra-we5lq

3 жыл бұрын

There is so many wrong things about this comment lol but I just wanna point out that that they do believe in trade. Also who says they only eat horses? And u know common folk exists?

@yurisakamaki7469

3 жыл бұрын

About the Dosh Khaleen, it actually really makes sense! Since khals are very revered, it makes sense to have a tradition that forces their wives to remain forever loyal to a khal even after his death. It's a way to show a khal's superiority (which, I admit, is cruel and patriarcal, but it makes sense in a historical point of view!) For example, historically, the chinese had a similar practice. In the early dynasties of imperial China, when an emperor died, the chinese killed the emperor's favorite concubines to bury them with the emperor. Very old emperors usually had dozens of young 14 years old concubines, so it was pretty common to kill many innocent and healthy 14/15 years old girls just to bury them with a dead old man. Later on, imperial china became more respectful towards women and sent the emperors' concubines to temples as nuns after the emperor's death. So when an emperor died, they sent dozens of young and healthy 15 years old girls to temples, shaved their head until they were bald, and the poor girls had to stay bald and chaste until their death.

One of the better Game of Thrones videos I've ever seen. I also was so mad when they destroyed the Dorne storyline that I don't even know where to start.

Ugh, I just discovered your channel and I am in love with your content!! Thank you KZread algorithm for once!!

GIRL I just discovered you. LOVE you and your takes on everything. Came here because of your gilmore girls reviews!

@Princess_Weekes

4 жыл бұрын

That's the best analysis I've heard on Daenerys, your points are very compelling. I feel like they added poc character because there wasn't enough, but they added only where it's simple to add (exotic cultures, pirates and slaves). Also the idea that they cut off Arianne because they gave her personality to Margaery is so true, I'm actually surprised it has never occurred to me before.

i remember reading an interview like... oh i think this was like 7 years ago now where GRRM said if he was writing it 'now', he'd make the targaryans black. at the time i was like 'that would be cool' but knowing the ending and everything that happened on the show since? perhaps less cool.

@paulinedunne3481

3 жыл бұрын

I don’t know! I think he was asked something like ‘if you could start again is there anything you’d do differently?’

@sophiawilson8696

3 жыл бұрын

I believe GRRM means black as soild black not as colour people.

Really glad I found your channel. Thanks for making this!

Great video. I didn't read the books but your incites were spot on as far as the show went. Was really a kick in the teeth learning that Dany freeing the slaves might not have been as epic when viewed from the prism of non-white experience. Would love a follow up with a focus on Grey Worm and his contrast from the prototypical black action hero.

I do love Dorne and it was shit I was mad at the sand snakes 😭 martell are bad ass but they was out of it in the show.

@lady8jane

4 жыл бұрын

Seriously, it's my favourite house because it's the most interesting and the smartest. And they fucked it up big time.

Ooo this is gonna be good.

This video is so amazing. Thank you!! Really validated a lot of my frustration with the show.

Loved your rebuttal to the "make your own media" argument. You couldn't have expressed it better. Also liked your makeup.

So tired of hearing that "make your own, make your own, make your own" refrain from people in response to complaints about lack of representation, or negative representation. Whether it's POC, LGBTQ, whatever. It's nothing but neo-Segregationism, "separate but equal" given a facelift.

@91Vault

4 жыл бұрын

and we do make our own...they might just not see a lot of it for somewhat obvious reasons

@NelsonStJames

4 жыл бұрын

The "make your own" whine has been proven to be nothing but hot air to jist end any discussion because now that people are truly capable of making their own (something that wasn't really a viable option in the past) these people are now gripping more than ever about the stuff they make.

@simonakatsman974

4 жыл бұрын

It's also annoying because whenever someone *does* "make their own", they are blocked by the mainstream media because that's too "political" or they just can't handle minorities in stories other than in being oppressed- see: civil rights movies, civil war movies, police brutality movies, holocaust movies, interracial marriages with white Christians, and the list goes on. Like racial and religious minorities are valid without having to be oppressed.

@daianmoi8528

4 жыл бұрын

Even the original author arguably “made his own,” and now the tv adaptation is copyrighted... so... no, you can’t make your own. You can’t make a new tv series that follows the book better and thereby has better representation :/

@oliviawilliams6204

4 жыл бұрын

@@daianmoi8528 at least we get the comics

Is it weird to crack ship Elia Martell and Lyanna Stark in an act of "F you Targaryen" spite?

This is an excellent video and I'm so glad you talked about all the points you talked about!

Super excited to watch this video!! I was always really annoyed about the anti-curly hair thing pervasive in the show

As much as I agree with all your points, the rape scene becoming more explicitly bad is a benefit. While D was aged up in the show, she is still under age and without the nuance that reading can provide and watching cannot, making a rape scene nuanced and complex can send a strange message to the audience.

The problem is not not enough diversity on screen. The problem is lack of diversity behind the screen. Who's in the writing room and who does the casting? The only time there is diversity is when it's a black movie.

Just found your channel and I love it!! Brb while I watch every video you've made 🤷🏼‍♀️😹

I am so glad you brought up the sex scene i talk about it all the time but i feel like it gets overlooked by stans!! Also i love that you made this, i was just thinking about these same sort or questions but the discourse ive seen on got and race is always just “yes it’s problematic “ but not a deep dive into how and why, and just, THANKYOU

As someone who never read the books and was only (very, VERY) casually following the show, seeing your excellent analysis of the differences between the source material and HBO’s adaptation choices truly helps me understand the unending, fiery ire of fans of the book series and all the YT vids that call the TV version trash😅. I’m honestly surprised Martin, a consultant to the show, didn’t push a bit harder to maintain some of these failures you’re pointing out. Due to thinking the show was in keeping with the source material in these ways, I had some salty feelings about _Game of Thrones_ as an intellectual property, which kept me from really investing emotionally into the show, largely due to the racial and gender tropes. (Also makes me want to go and read the books for a deeper understanding and better storytelling...)

@oliviawilliams6204

4 жыл бұрын

Martin stopped being consulted after Season 4, he was kept on the credit more as a courtesy. In Season 1 to 4 he wrote one episode by Season. But his script for Season 4 was butchered (It was the Purple Wedding Episode) And seem he decided to focus on the book since it seemed that his advice and his script where not treated with respect.

i love george rr martin cause he went out of his way to make the darker skinned races really cool in the books. i love summer islanders and their swan ships and giant bow and arrows and i really hope we see more the Cinnamon wind in the books.

I read the books ages before the tv show happened. (I think Feast for Crows had just dropped as paperback when I read it.) I remember hearing about five years later that the show existed and they had cut the Dorne plotlines way down and going "But they're so important!"

I really liked how you compared the books and the show in this regard def gonna sub to this!

me, 8 months later: I had no idea how badly I wanted this video until I read the title. THANK YOU for this, I'm living for a perspective that I (a white woman) could not possibly have on an issue I am very interested in regarding ASoIaF and GoT's adaptation, I"m so stoked to learn from you

So about the buring dragons thing, she only had burns from Drogons fire, not regular fire. I feel like that an important distinction. So she could walk through a pyre but not dragon fire

Hahaha love your commentary on Feast of Crows, I thought I wouldn't like it at the start and then I pivoted realizing I liked many of the characters and plots as much if not more than the main

very thoughtful and important video. thank you so much for sharing. i watched the show first and then read the books and i was so surprised by how different race, culture, class, gender, sexuality etc was portrayed in the show vs the books. it was very disappointing to think that the show writers had been given such an interesting, varied world with well-written characters and they just shit on it completely. you are so right about AFFC as well! very necessary POV's and i enjoyed learning more about the world and dorne especially. warmed the lesbian and feminist in me to know that there is a place in westeros where women rule and sexuality is not so regulated!

Yes!! Martells finally get recognition!! I played a Martell bard in DND and it was my favorite character!!

The ending wasn't trying to make a point that Dany was a coloniser, it was trying to make a point that she had always been violent and people didn't realise it was wrong because she was being violent against people who were considered enemies... and that there were some mad Targaryen genes in her... which were poorly done weak points that made no sense, but anyways, it also did nothing to fix the white saviour shit. It is infuriating that the show has almost no nuance when it comes do Dany freeing the slaves. It goes against the complexity and greyness that the show was initially loved for. She ends slavery with no plan when it comes to a new economic system or opportunities to those people she freed, and the places in which she abolishes slavery become a mess. All the criticism in this video was constructive, smart, detailed and on point.

Excellent essay. You managed to articulate what I couldn't - even to myself - as to why I've never been into Fantasy. Never made it thru a single episode of GOT; I tried watching just one of the Hobbit movies, 5 times - fell asleep each time, then gave up. Anyway your analysis made me realize why. I don't recognize a single character as anyone I grew up with, or have otherwise known and most importantly cared about. It's all foreign, empty and meaningless to me. How can I give a s**t about a character who's just not real? I get that they're fantastical, what I mean is even as such, nobody I know acts like these, these... whatever they are. So, thanks for bringing it home for me.

This video is so good. I was so disappointed with the show especially with the last season. I love listening to your takes on these topics. Keep making amazing videos!

I’d be interested to see you do a video about Margaery Tyrell. I found her an interesting foil to Cersei, Dany, and Sansa. For Sansa, she models the ways in which femininity can be levered for power. For Cersei, she shows us a version of what Cersei perhaps could have been. And compared to Dany, we see the difference in how they approach ideas of improving the lives of those they rule. Margaery can be much more calculated about how she does charitable works, but at the end of the day, she is helping the poor in concrete ways. A beggar doesn’t care that you have him food as a flex of power to your mother-in-law. He just cares that you thought to give him food and now he has a meal. In comparison, Dany has a lot of lofty intentions (though I think she sort of lies to herself about her motivations sometimes since she’s not a deep thinker) but doesn’t know how to actually help people.

I’m definitely gonna love your thoughts on Joker!! 😁🤘👍 I will say that representation of color in novels is not exactly high based on statistics I’ve seen.

@Princess_Weekes

4 жыл бұрын

It is not at all and yet the show still managed to muck it up XD

Just discovered your channel. Awesome critique. Plus, it’s always fun see D&D getting a good slagging

Thank you for incorporating the phrase 'tom foolery'. One of my favorites.

I'm a white guy who loves Song of Ice and Fire, I appreciate you pointing out the problematic race issues I missed. (My loved Game of Thrones ended when I read the books,. Though I doubt I would have read them had the show not become such a cultural phenomenon.)

Literally everything you said from start to finish was GOLDEN. And yes, we black people ABSOLUTELY drive culture and make shit pop. People can try to pretend all they want, but we make this all go hard. Once we put our voices, attention, support and MONEY (we are also the biggest consumers) behind a project, it’s damn near guaranteed success. THAT IS WHY THEY NEED US, let it be known!!!

So glad I’ve finally discovered your channel you’re incredible 🥰

I'm sad that I'm only just now discovering your videos, because OMG YES DORNE. As a fan of the books, I've tried to explain to my show-only friends just how dirty Benioff and Weiss did Dorne, both figuratively and literally assassinating one of the most nuanced and interesting characters. Thanks for articulating all it better than I could have!

Thanks for this video. OF all the things this black nerd hated about season 8, the erasure of the only part of the Seven Kingdom's with darker skin was the worst part. Three of the Eight seasons focused on these people, their story, and they feature prominently in the books, but all of it is essentially ignored, and we get a throwaway no-name prince that says literally nothing, when the entire north secedes. Like people, Dorne was only a part of the seven kingdoms because of centuries of diplomacy, that they would sit there and just consent to whatever after having had no part of the war for the dawn, no real part in any conflict really, boggles the mind.

18:45 "Dickon, Rickon, Chickon" Priceless! I never clicked so hard on the like button of a GoT video before. If you think about it, them making those last episodes about "her being a colonizer" after she patronized brown people, posed as their one and true savior and destroyed their hierarchies and political systems just before leaving the burning shit behind is very fitting with the history of white people freaking out about early 20th century fascism, which was ultimately white-on-white colonialism, all the while keeping colonialists memories as treasured pieces of noble history.

You filled a gap in my brain I needed this content thank you

I haven’t been able to read the books sadly but you bring up a lot of interesting points that I didn’t know about (vaguely the plot points were familiar but yeah)! I always thought that the Dothraki were way more complex than most people in the show as well as people watching it gave them credit for along with the people of Slaver’s Bay and otherwise. Essos is so vivid and magical from all of the videos and synopsis’s I’ve watched of its history, people, and places and interesting and multifaceted and so to whittle them all down into “savages” and “slaves” is depressing. They each have such a unique culture and it’s a shame we didn’t see more of it and it’s consequences of how Dany and her actions impacted these places and people. It’s so ironic that the place it gets the most friction is in Westeros where? Arguably, her way of thinking, and generally her way of doing things (other than not inherently being directly involved with the “Game of Thrones”) would be accepted the most. From what I know they haven’t got to that place in the books? But I would have thought that the show would have handled it so differently. And Dorne. Such a beautiful place from everything that I know and it’s tossed out of the window for Lannister angst and “girl power”? Listen, I’m a girl and I don’t want to see all men who don’t fall under my political and moral standards die? I want to see cunning navigations of politics. I want to see a woman using her wits in battles. I want to see so much more than that, and just a multi-faceted and layered female character. Sorry for the rambling, this was a great video!! 💜💜💜

Not all brown people are the same, but Hispanics and Arabs have been intermingling since the Muslim Invasion of Spain and Portugal in the Middle Ages

@user-hb4zz4gh5e

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly

I LOVE your Aquaman/Mera print in the back! They are my absolute favorite DC couple! Mera is SUCH a badass, she absolutely shines in Blackest Night and Brightest Day. Probably my favorite stories with her in it

This was super informative. I would love further episodes on race in got/asoiaf

The black audience for game of thrones is a large part of the fan base, and fans are the reason shows get funding. What I'm trying to say is anyone using the "make your own" arguement is big dumb. Sidenote it's odd to me that people got to Dany is Westeros and were suddenly surprised that she killed people. Did they catch the crucifixions, or the burning people alive, or the feeding people to dragons, or... I think my point is clear.

Much love from Nashville TN!! ...31:26 truest of facts...it aligns with something I have always believed...Melanin Upgrades Everything!

You are wonderful, I'm so happy I found this channel!

Love your material so much! I always look for representation, and when i draw webcomics, the best thing toddo is showing a diverse cast and saying that brown is beautiful.

For me the idea of including blacks and browns go beyond the fact that we are on the internet, we so have black and brown ppl show, but we want to have shows in which we are a part of the world together, we don't exist in a separate place, we all exist together and we want to be well represented! I simply loved all the arguments that you gave, it made me want to cry, I'm so tired of being seen as "savage" just bc my skin isn't white