I moved, so I hope you like the new background! Let me know what you think. (Also I guess feedback on the philosophical content would be good too, probably.)

@duolingoowl920

3 жыл бұрын

Nice beard

@seraphim-kpopdreamcorpsear5255

3 жыл бұрын

Cringe video.

@danielbojkovski723

3 жыл бұрын

Very symmetrical :)

@_Tp__

3 жыл бұрын

Love the background.

@user-ov3rj4rv4n

3 жыл бұрын

The new background makes you look more professional

“Watching KZread videos to avoid whatever it is you’re supposed to be doing right now” Please don’t expose me like that again

@ChonosTack

3 жыл бұрын

He destroyed me with facts and logic.

@ramblingthoughtsandideas

3 жыл бұрын

Hahaha!

@christopherhowarth9801

3 жыл бұрын

Oops, I'd better get back to work.

@kevinclydeeguia2543

3 жыл бұрын

I wasted more time in looking for this kind of comment thread than answering my modules

@gracenolan6326

3 жыл бұрын

@@kevinclydeeguia2543 you even saying the term "modules" activated my fight or flight

Love how Alex casually inserted "the existence of Tiktok" in his list of the evils of the world

@HardToBeAPoopGod

3 жыл бұрын

if you scroll your For You recommendations long enough, you'll get it. as well as the commentors sharing approx. four common braincells as a single entity

@DemonicRemption

3 жыл бұрын

@Objective Morality Yeah, I couldn't hear what he was saying due to laughing at that jab. xD

@afrid7440

3 жыл бұрын

@Darshana Ambulkar Twitter is good too

@zinniaward8549

3 жыл бұрын

@Darshana Ambulkar I love goodreads. Not entirely relevant, I know, but yeah

@al.the.

3 жыл бұрын

I really hate such young people, as Alex is, already giving off *ok boomer* deserving vibe. I'm 46, every newest younger people's social/fun interest is The root of (all) evil. It's tiresome. I'm not amused.

The fact that Craig can't imagine violence not being a solution in any capacity is a disturbing statement about his mind.

@SmartAss4123

8 ай бұрын

Violence is okay in terms of defense of self/home family and others safety of others

@mynamemyself5469

7 ай бұрын

@@SmartAss4123 get a dictionary, violence and self defense are two different thing not the same.

@SmartAss4123

7 ай бұрын

@@mynamemyself5469 If I act in self defense I will do so violently. How about that

@CharlesPayet

7 ай бұрын

@@mynamemyself5469can you explain how one would defend oneself without violence? If someone attacks me, I will react with all the violence I possibly can.

@havenbastion

7 ай бұрын

First, violence is not only physical...

Your response to the professor saying that animals can experience pain without being aware of it struck a cord in me. Im in second year of a biology degree and even the most philosophical and thoughtful professors kept saying this when I expressed confusion. We once had an experiment on a frog. The professor would jam a needle through their vertebral canal and paralyze it from the neck down. During it I felt very conflicted, especially since what the experiment was actually after was its throat cilia movements by cutting its face and blocking the jaws in place with paper clips and pins. I kept asking the professor if it didnt feel the pain because I'd expect that the frog would still have sensation in its mouth, but he kept shrugging me off. I still do not know what the correct call was. Presumably, a lot of what we know about biology came from these kind of procedures, and this knowledge prevented suffering.

@ChristopherMueller-qm9us

5 ай бұрын

When I was in High School I did a senior project on Puppy mills, and probably the most disgusting comments were “dogs can’t feel pain” and this lady that cut the vocal cords on all the dogs because she was annoyed with their barking. And if you have any observational skills you should realize that dogs like all animals feel pain because they all have nerves.

@SnakeWasRight

3 ай бұрын

It's a spectrum, some animals, like bugs, probably have very little to no awareness of the pain. A reptile probably very little. A deer, probably not a lot. A dog, a lot more, depending on the dog.

@sananton2821

3 ай бұрын

Why would a dog be a lot more aware of pain than a deer?@@SnakeWasRight

@name18745

3 ай бұрын

making students do it is just for show, they can easily show a video but they chose this method, it definitely is not coming full circle if thats what youre trying to use to cope

@name18745

3 ай бұрын

@@sananton2821 because thats what he wants to believe ig

A dog or cat can remember the suffering inflicted upon them, and more importantly, remember who did it to them. The notion that they didn’t feel any real pain is just absurd, and frankly, bordering on the psychotic.

@rodshop5897

2 жыл бұрын

"A dog or cat can remember the suffering inflicted upon them" Yep. Amazing how many people don't even understand that much.

@TheBlueCream

2 жыл бұрын

William Lane Craig is a bit touched i believe

@BirgitProfessional

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, my childhood pet kept peeing into my dad's wine cellar because my dad sometimes lightly smacked her with a slipper if she did something wrong. She never quite warmed up to him until her death 😕

@UTU49

2 жыл бұрын

William Lane Craig spews some of the purest, foulest BS I have ever heard from any source... ever. It's hard to imagine how anyone could ever say something stupider than, "Animals need to be tortured to death, so that they won't starve." I do not feel like trying to restrain my massive disgust.

@corn5490

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, if animals didn’t feel suffering, then animals that have previously been abused wouldn’t have an innate fear not only of their abuser, but also other humans. There’s many stories of how slow going of a process it is to get an animal to trust their new owner after having suffered abuse by a previous owner. If they didn’t suffer, why would they have trauma?

"They're in pain, but they aren't AWARE that they are in pain." I think Craig is confused. But I don't think he is aware that he is confused.

@OctyabrAprelya

3 жыл бұрын

Oh god, you made my day.

@spacedoohicky

3 жыл бұрын

That's likely partially true. Most animals are probably aware of the pain they feel, but it's likely not as acute because they can't analyze it as well as more brainy animals. To the inverse more brainy animals are going to feel more because they have existential dread while they are in physical suffering. But Craig is always confused.

@danielgould5530

3 жыл бұрын

You say that as a joke, but incidentally that perfectly sums up the Kalam Cosmological Argument and other such nonsense.

@danielgould5530

3 жыл бұрын

(Anyone who uses meaningless phrases like "necessarily sufficient contingency" is confused but isn't aware they are confused. The rest of us are just confused.)

@syggyballs

3 жыл бұрын

@@spacedoohicky While it's certainly possible that humans experience pain more acutely than other animals, I don't see why the opposite couldn't also be true. They experience other senses like smell, sight, hearing, etc, far more acutely than we do, so why couldn't this also be true for their experience of pain?

Alex just reminded me to study for my finals that I was supposed to be doing. Thanks Alex

@user-qz5jj3nv3r

17 күн бұрын

Bro same😂🎉🎉

Great video Alex and a thoughtful and forensic take-down of that oaf Craig...and love that you have a copy of Hitch 22 on your shelf!

If you've ever accidentally stepped on a dog's tail, you know goddamn well they are aware of their own suffering. They even look back at you and feel sad and betrayed you did that.

@garyskinner2422

Жыл бұрын

Ofc this is absolutely obvious to anyone with any honest evaluation of reality would conclude. We can see and instantly intuit through our own experience, it's not and shouldn't even be in question but this is unfortunately what contorting and theistic obfuscation does to the mind. lying is a sin apparently yet they willingly lie for god at any moment albeit knowing they can pray for forgiveness for their sins and hey presto such a shambolic reasoning system. All theists that believe this tripe should be banned from being guardians of animals of any kind.

@garyskinner2422

Жыл бұрын

@@Streetrat23 Only the religious believe in sin remember that, those religions that posit a god, until you can demonstrate a gods existence then we are all at sea without a boat.

@loganleatherman7647

Жыл бұрын

@Gabriel Peters “if you were to not sin you would be healthy and immune” Yeah… citation sorely needed, as this is nothing but a supposition you pulled out of your ass

@rafox66

Жыл бұрын

@@Streetrat23 That explains infant mortality, babies should just stop sinning.

@aryanakiraj5049

Жыл бұрын

@@rafox66 Oh and what about all the people living in india or some remote island who believe in a different god or don’t know about Christianity? Guess they’re all fucked.

Someone who thinks that animals don't experience pain is someone who's never accidentally trod on their dog's paw.

@Spyd77

3 жыл бұрын

Or worse, a psycopath.

@Patrick33194

3 жыл бұрын

He didn't say that tough He said they suffer to a different degree. I think that's still a shit argument against the animal suffering dilemma, but i felt like alex was misrepresenting his point

@bodan1196

3 жыл бұрын

How can you be certain that the carrot you are munching on does not experience pain? A leaf of sallat? A bean? While I completely and full agree that we should do better in our animal husbanding... veganism is not the answer. edit: ...not the complete answer...

@Renegade1100011

3 жыл бұрын

@@bodan1196 Because a carrot doesn't have a nervous system.

@bodan1196

3 жыл бұрын

@@Renegade1100011 So you are saying that carrots have system of steel? Cool and not fazed by things? :-) (attempted joke) My attempted point is; that it does not matter much what does and does not have a nervous system, your distinction for what is what is not food, remains arbitrary. We need to consume other living things to survive. For now. In the future perhaps not. But until then, food is needed and as long as we don't play with our food, or by choice ignore our responsibillity to not cause unnecessary harm, 'eating meat' will remain on the table.

the most insightful thing Ive seen recently. I wish everybody could be in receipt of your vision

I think the question is too focused on the concept of animals needing love from God. God made animals for the benefit of humans in order to further their ability to build a relationship with him so I think there should have been a focus on "Is God loving to animals" before introducing the element of the unfairness of animals, furthermore I would say that the idea of a "all loving" God may only apply to humans as we often see animals sacrificed ect in the old testament. I just want to clarify I'm not saying that God is not loving to animals but I do wish this was discussed as a prelude to this discussion.

This reminds me of the fact that doctors used to do surgery on on babies without anesthetics in the past. They thought that they couldn't feel pain. Or at least that they dont form memories. Something that would be unthinkable today

@Wolf-ln1ml

Жыл бұрын

Well, for a while, there was this "what if" discussion about anaesthetics - what if they didn't actually prevent us from feeling pain, but simply paralysed us and made us forget everything that happened under their influence (so that nobody would _remember_ going through hours of torture during operations)? Quite a scary thought experiment...

@blubaylon

Жыл бұрын

@@Wolf-ln1ml Wouldn't that leave physcological scars, even if the person doesn't remember anything? Scientists could observe that

@Wolf-ln1ml

Жыл бұрын

@@blubaylon Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by now, we can be certain that the stuff actually works as intended. But for a while, it was considered a possibility, however unlikely...

@stephenbrain3620

Жыл бұрын

Hey that's an interesting point. Babies and fetuses aren't aware of their condition - their consciousnesses have not developed enough yet. Does that mean that we can do to them whatever we want?

@juiceoverflow

Жыл бұрын

@@Wolf-ln1ml did you know despite the fact that anesthetic use is so widespread, we have NO idea how it actually works?

"Watching KZread to avoid doing what you're supposed to do" I feel personally called out

@Korb-Bee

3 жыл бұрын

me at work like 👀

@TheAdventuretrainerRuby

3 жыл бұрын

I have my dissertation due on Friday... but imma be watching this

@karlazeen

3 жыл бұрын

I've got a bunch of homework that's due next Monday.

@DaPradaGap

3 жыл бұрын

Soooooooo? Does he want us to turn off the video o.0? Jk haha

@karlazeen

3 жыл бұрын

@@DaPradaGap I mean probably we've all got shit to do so... Let's be responsible adults I guess.

Very good video , i understand what you mean and I share it. Sometimes we step on the tale of our dog or cat and they react to that pain because they're aware of it. With you all the way long. You make great points, keep it up man

@Yacobsters

11 ай бұрын

Would you like to find Christ?

@brysonsteadham9029

3 ай бұрын

@@Yacobstersis he playing hide and seek?

@Yacobsters

3 ай бұрын

@@brysonsteadham9029 It's funny you say that.

@mrsatire9475

2 ай бұрын

@@Yacobsters Zeus be with you always.

@Yacobsters

2 ай бұрын

@@mrsatire9475 God bless you 🙏

there used to be a belief amongst early medical staff maybe a hundred years ago, that babies can't feel pain and so surgeons would operate on them without anaesthesia. just because someone can't tell you about their pain, doesn't mean that you don't feel it. also if animals not experiencing pain and suffering was true, the animal experimentation would be open to anyone without any restrictions

Not only can animals experience pain, they can anticipate pain. I've seen people raise their hand to their dog and seen the dog cringe in anticipation of pain.

@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094

3 жыл бұрын

in all the most important ways, non human animals are no different from human animals. The main difference is that human animals are capable of rationalizing anything including the most egregious EVIL.

@joshwarrey3728

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, this happened when my mom raised her hand on our dog, he cried like a baby even when he wasn't actually hit

@kelpiekatgaming

2 жыл бұрын

Poor doggo, that’s a learned reaction :(

@Eskapismus

2 жыл бұрын

@@joshwarrey3728 So someone probably hurt him in the past, otherwise he wouldn't have learned a raised hand probably leads to being hit. :/

@TheBlueCream

2 жыл бұрын

@@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094 like the nazis did

"Watching KZread to avoid doing what you're supposed to do" I don't tell you how to live your life :(

@jr_1742

3 жыл бұрын

I have never felt so called out in my life man... holy shit 😂

@justus4684

3 жыл бұрын

Procrastination is our all master

@strangetimez

3 жыл бұрын

hahah the guilt kicked in didnt it

@tellmelullabies5552

3 жыл бұрын

@YoStefan , you were eating animals, weren’t you?

@strangetimez

3 жыл бұрын

@@tellmelullabies5552 lol!

I really like this channel. I found this after Alex’s appearance on Piers Morgan - at first I thought Alex was smug and arrogant, but that was probably due to the combative nature of Morgan’s show. I have since completely reversed my opinion and see Alex as an extremely intelligent, considered and insightful person. I was particularly impressed with your interview with WL Craig, in which Alex gave him space to answer and even generously admitted when Dr. Craig had given him something to contend with. As a Christian, the problem of suffering is one of the greatest problems we have to seek to explain. For me, John Lennox says it best when he admits the burden of trying to grapple this and instead asks ‘What is God doing on a cross?’ which suggests that whatever difficulties there are in explaining this, God has made Himself a part of the suffering, has taken the pain on Himself and has not left us to suffer alone. The animal suffering tact is very thought-provoking and a very good point. My own thoughts, for what they’re worth lol, is the passage is Isaiah: 6The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. 7The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. 9They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. This suggests to me that for whatever reason, this world is fallen and imperfect, which corresponds exactly with Christian teaching. There is redemption and hope for us in the future. In isolation, I could understand why this answer might be insufficient for some, but I suppose that is where the bigger picture and faith come in. If we can know that God is good through knowledge of Jesus Christ, then these questions can surely be answered

@hrmpug1092

11 ай бұрын

Alex is smug and arrogant.

@turbovirgin_

5 ай бұрын

I think the problem with that line of reasoning is that this world, God's creation, is supposed to be perfect already. The reasoning goes, if God is all-powerful and all-loving, this world - our world - would be the best of all possible worlds. There would be no suffering, no destruction, no death. Since this world does have suffering, destruction, and death, and God is all-loving and all-powerful, every bit of the suffering in our world is either necessary or just. Your passage is kind of admitting that there are some positive changes that could be made, which has troubling implications. After all, if our world is already perfect with the suffering we have now, then how can there be a better world for God to promise us? To promise the animals? That implies this world - God's own creation - isn't the best of all possible worlds. Which is impossible by God's very nature. So what the hell is going on here? In short, you're admitting either that God is not all-loving or that He is not all-powerful. Either He has condemned us and the animals to this hellish world just to watch us squirm, or He wants to move us to this better world, but can't. The second option I think is a much more reasonable and interesting religious concept. Maybe He's not as powerful as we think He is. Maybe He needs our help. But unfortunately, to most Christians, God must be perfectly omnipotent for their world to make any sense. Admitting there is no omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving creator entity is tantamount to admitting there is no God. Which means suffering either isn't real, or is your own fault for not loving God enough.

@mattmorehouse9685

5 ай бұрын

@@turbovirgin_ Considering how Yahweh acts in the Bible, it's perfectly in character for him to make us suffer just to boost his ego. He lies to the first man and 2nd woman when they're innocent, condones the rape and beatings of Hagar, goes on a little ego fueled rant when it comes time for him to destroy the Egyptian charioteers, and wipes out 99.9% of landbound and human life with the flood. Yahweh is exactly the sort of narcissistic, ego humping piece of shit that would torture some one, then demand they worship him.

@luvguitare

4 ай бұрын

@@turbovirgin_ our world is fallen. God made it perfect, but our decision to turn our back on God opened the door to suffering and evil

@mrsatire9475

2 ай бұрын

@@luvguitare An imperfect being makes imperfect creations

Now, imagine what we, human beings go through in life. Our suffering is much more deeper and excruciatingly painful. It`s absolutely appalling and mind-boggling that most of the time innocent people go through hell and the only explanation Christianity can offer in this situation is that "those people suffer for other people`s sins" that this world is sinful, etc. So, how can I believe in the existence of a "caring and loving God" if I have to suffer for other people`s sins? What kind of "logic" is this? Moreover, suffering doesn`t end in this life. God is unable to comfort us even in the afterlife. If you go to Heaven but your loved ones go to Hell, how can you be happy in Heaven? How is that even possible?

The use of a whip by old-timer animal trainers is a compelling indication that animals are aware of pain

@souloftheage

2 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure the whip was used physically against the animals buy rather, psychologically. Even the latter can be a form of pain, however. Either way, the whip is a negative reward.

@akobayashi9381

2 жыл бұрын

@@souloftheage That's not how conditioning works. At first the animal is whipped several times until the correlation between pain and sound/gesture is established. Only then the psychological effect is set.

@focusfoust1766

2 жыл бұрын

Do you have a point captain obvious?

@jackricky5453

2 жыл бұрын

Animals are not self-aware of pain even if they can experience it. If they are not self-aware at all they can’t be self-aware of their own pain. Animals do not have a concept of self. Alex jumped right over this point.

@yec1091

2 жыл бұрын

They are evil, they have satan in them

“An animal can’t experience pain”... Aaaaah. That must be the reason why an animal will avoid places or situations that caused them to be in pain previously. Because they couldn’t experience that pain. Yeah, now I get it!🙄

@beastmaster6486

3 жыл бұрын

bUt BuT bUt... iNsTiNcT!

@joesifa5235

3 жыл бұрын

So y'all don't know what awareness is

@curranbrownlee9671

3 жыл бұрын

@@joesifa5235 are animals not aware?

@joesifa5235

3 жыл бұрын

@@curranbrownlee9671 they're not self aware. Not as human beings are

@curranbrownlee9671

3 жыл бұрын

@@joesifa5235 Self-aware and aware can mean two different things. Also what makes you think that animals aren't aware? After all, many animals share extremely similar brain structure and chemistry to us humans. Behavior of animals like dolphins, monkeys and elephants pretty much speaks for itself.

Great work Alex! I do agree with this argument. The problem with suffering far precedes only humanocentric suffering in principle. It took earth more than three billion years to evolve from single cell lifeforms to mammals, and this process really doesn't make any clear cut between humans and the way other animals are suffering. Our bodies and neurology is basically the same. Sure, on a metaphysical level humans are able to reflect and therefore experience anxiety in a different way. But it also grants us a mental mental approach that are often screening ourselves from direct sensory experience. Animals are, as Alex O'connor explains in other videos, much more closely connected to their senses. Humans tend to fall short in direct connection to our senses because of our immense thinking about "pain". Yet actual pain without quotation marks is just as real and vivid for animals, if not even worse. You can see it their eyes. Their bodies and behaviour are clearly expressing deep anxiety and pain. No doubt about. Also, there's no real answer from Christian dogma exactly why God had to make evolution so painful. Not in principle that is - judging that God is omnipotent and that the authors of the Bible didn't had even a speck of a clue about biological evolution. This concept is just so far off the radar in Christian cosmology, therefore it has never really been seriously implemented in Christian theology as a problem. Traditionally animals have just been viewed upon as "fleshy automatons" by people like Descarte in the 16th century. Yet more people are coming to see this problem as a fact. Taken there are even cultures, like in India, that have been practicing vegetarianism for thousands of years just add to this notion from their world view.

Thanks for presenting the Craig/Murray notion of "third order of pain awareness" being missing in animals. I was familiar with C.S. Lewis' treatment of the problem of animal pain (unresolved by him), but not theirs. However, I think that it's true that animals have no anticipation of pain, that is, they cannot imagine it. A deer stands frozen in the headlight of an onrushing train with no notion of what is to happen to it. Animals do have a remembrance of past pain, for example the case of a cowed dog that has been beaten in the past, but it is not vivid, with no reliving of the particular past event in its present consciousness. For humans, that prospect of pain, the reliving of past pain, and the vivid association of those with present sensations not painful in themselves constitutes an essential part of human suffering, in which the psychic aspect of pain inflicts more suffering than the pain itself. Thus there seems to be a vast difference between animal pain and human pain. We rightly condemn inflicting pain on animals, less because of the consequences of their pain and more for the consideration that doing so disfigures us into unsympathetic beings blunted by indifference to pain in fellow animals, including fellow humans.

I am a theist who watches your videos to stay non biased, and I just wanna say I love your videos. You don’t straw man, you don’t mock and ridicule, you act very respectable and bring up good points. Thank you for your work!

@Brandon-vg7pl

3 жыл бұрын

I do the same on Christian apologist videos. Good on you man. We all should be willing to listen to other peoples views in order to question our own. Its healthy

@aycon8482

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers man!

@martenjustrell446

3 жыл бұрын

So what is your response to this and all other arguments Alex is putting out in his videos? Since you haven't change your mind despite beeing exposed to seriously good argumentation and logic you either must have access to even better arguments for your theism or logic and reasoning is just not what you base your theism on and therefore wont be able to change your mind..

@Brandon-vg7pl

3 жыл бұрын

@@martenjustrell446 easy now. Its a process. Its not as simple as youre trying to make it. It takes time.

@kaiserhdbooi9403

3 жыл бұрын

You must have strong faith, I can't imagine keeping my faith when exposed to such reasoning

“... and the existence of TikTok” I’m fucking WHEEZING

@just_a_turtle_chad

3 жыл бұрын

A turtle doesn't approve the existence of Tik Tok

@paigesflow

3 жыл бұрын

💀💀

@poopfart65

3 жыл бұрын

Redit😎😎😎😎 🤣🤣🤣😂😂

@franklynonyia1449

3 жыл бұрын

😂😂😂

@timdowney6721

3 жыл бұрын

@@just_a_turtle_chad And a turtle doesn’t presumably know about TikTok. Smart turtle.

I would like to point out that saying God should have just made a better system without offering a viable alternative is not a strong argument. Our ecosystems and biological creatures are so complex, varied, and interconnected that there are too many moving parts to count. Even if we could start making major changes like the ones briefly mentioned in this video (reducing the fertility of all animals, removing all predators, changing the diets of all insects), we could not possibly know all of the ramifications or correct for them. In short, we have no assurance that the outcome would be better than it already is. Of course one can criticize things, but as the video wore on, I kept feeling like this argument was being used as a crutch, a failsafe to negate any possible response the Christian might come up with. It amounts to saying “I, as a being which is not all-knowing, know for certain that an all-knowing being could have come up with a better system than this”. It’s still an interesting video, though.

@willyroo8570

2 ай бұрын

hes not saying "why wont god change things?". hes saying "why would god make the world like this?". Sure changing things now would probably screw things up but if, from the start, god had put in the "cosmic contraception" as alex calls it then a lot of suffering would be saved. Also if hes all knowing then he should know a solution that doesnt screw things up and if hes omnipotent then he should be able to implement it.

@RichardsGaySon

Ай бұрын

Well if God is all knowing and all powerful he should easily be able to come up with a better system

@omariwashington2570

Ай бұрын

​@@RichardsGaySonor maybe this is the best solution

@tempestdimy

Ай бұрын

@@willyroo8570 And every atheist play dumb when they hear "Christ", like God literally offered everyone the solution, for two thousand years we've been told the solution of all suffering of this fallen world, but at the end, I guess everyone is an hypocrite nowadays.

@muchograndeyolatengo

29 күн бұрын

​@@omariwashington2570 Did lions kill lambs in the garden of eden? Did Adam and Eve spent their days running away from dinosaurs? If no. then surely that ecosystem is better than what we have when it comes to animals. Honest Christians will admit (and have admitted whenever this is brought up) that animals were corrupted because of the fall of man. Then when someone brings up the problematic implications of precisely that theology, then it's full on denial mode.​

Something I'd like your thoughts on....my wife and I own cats. One of them, Butler, recently had a urinary blockage (extremely "painful" for cats). If the premise of -animals don't "feel" pain- is true per Christians, then why did the cries of Butler, and him heaving, and not willing to eat or drink, caused my wife to be sad and upset and suffer? Her suffering, by seeing an animal she loves act the way he did because of an issue he doesn't understand, also caused my own suffering. And not to mention the financial impact and other suffering - because Butler had a medical issue and that issue was life threatening, my wife and I were faced with a choice: cause more suffering to ourselves by putting him down (killing him) or suffer by taking on the burden of the financial impact due to medical intervention? I was a life-long Christian most of my life and only within the past few years have I woke up to fallacies of that religion. And only recently stumbled upon your videos and debates - which I've used to initiate conversations with my family on these very topics.

Why would an all-loving God permit the existence of TikTok 😂

@youreallysuck2405

2 жыл бұрын

Check mate Christian's

@nic8671

2 жыл бұрын

Because God allows people to choose what they do.

@fnafboy0555

2 жыл бұрын

@@nic8671Well, that is under the assumption that we have free will

@nic8671

2 жыл бұрын

@@fnafboy0555 - Yes, I opporate in reality.

@kfc4056

2 жыл бұрын

@@fnafboy0555 I chose to write this comment. Or was it predetermined

I know a dog trainer who specialises in rehabbing abused dogs. They show all the same kinds of long-term trauma that you see in abused humans. If they aren't aware of pain, how can abuse cause chronic stress, depression, phobias? If that's the best argument they've got, it's beyond absurd.

@professionalgambling6783

3 жыл бұрын

There isn't even any point to talk about it, the first question should be what makes them think, that there is any god at all, we can guess the answer, then what makes them think that their god is the real one, where is the last time that jesus just re-make somenes hand, or make any miracle at all? He said he will, but as we can see, it's bullshit, they can't answer this question, they will say that you have to belive without any proof, they will ignore that in bible's story, jesus did give a lot of proof to them, that he can do miracles.

@scienceexplains302

3 жыл бұрын

Tullochgorum, Good point

@amberbydreamsart5467

2 жыл бұрын

Right?? Like how do you think no animals are capable of being aware of their own pain when parrots can straight up have ptsd?

@yec1091

2 жыл бұрын

They feel pain because we let the devil into our lives. But youre ignorant

@tomellis4750

2 жыл бұрын

@@professionalgambling6783 One of the miracles being casting the nets on the Sea of Galilee to kill lots of fish.

Pleasure is a feeling that may come around in connection with a satisfied desire (active objective). Pain is a feeling that may come around in connection with an obstructed desire. There are objectives that concern the anatomy (to breath, eat etc.) and their satisfaction or obstruction occurs temporally, i.e. both pass. Being that it is not clear 'when' is the present it is not clear whether or not satisfactions or obstructions related to passing phenomena, such as bodies, so much as exist in any sort of remotely substantial way (e.g., 'where' is all the pain we believe occurred 100 years ago? Even pain from a stubbed toe 10 minutes ago is (hopefully) entirely gone). Only human beings who can attain to non-temporal satisfaction, i.e., finding life in God that is Himself Life, then, really exist, and that certain anatomical objectives are sometimes obstructed leading to sensations called pain in the natural order is of no (ethical) significance whatsoever, whether or not we like it.

I agree. I was a practicing Catholic. I took animal suffering to the priest and he couldn't give me a answer that meant anything. So I quit being a Catholic.

Of course animals feel the pain. They also remember the pain, which is obvious by their trying to avoid the painful situation afterwards. And I don't think remembering something without experiencing it is even possible.

@tomforemanx1079

2 жыл бұрын

How do you know that the animal is not just acting from instinct. Avoiding a past painful experience doesn’t evidence that the animal is succumb to suffering (at least long term) just because it tries to avoid a painful situation that it once had. Animals can defiantly feel pain but how does pain answer the question that animals suffer, at least in the same way a human would. You can’t prove that an animal suffers emotionally that’s for sure. If you are someone that believes in theories such as survival of the fittest then you accept that animals act for majority of their lives acting purely on their instincts and not with great thought or understanding but purely that every action it takes is in order to survive. If an animal can’t think deeply or understand deep concepts then surely it cannot succumb to deep suffering. If it cannot succumb to deep suffering then you can’t argue that God allows animals to suffer deeply and therefore you can’t argue that God himself is evil for allowing animals to suffer deeply. Whether an animal is intelligent enough to suffer deeply or not is subjective and therefore is not a strong enough argument to say that the Christian God is evil for allowing animal suffering. We can only prove that animals experience pain and remember it but we cannot prove that they experience deep suffering. But it’s just peoples opinions on whether you think an animal experiencing pain suggests that God doesn’t exist or not.

@tomforemanx1079

2 жыл бұрын

@wh4ckyWh4le Never once said it was good to purposely put them in pain. Just that we can’t prove whether they suffer in the way that Alex points out.

@wh4ckywh4le32

2 жыл бұрын

@@tomforemanx1079 I never said that you claimed it was good. I simply demonstrated the stupidity of your argument. Let's take this for example: "If an animal can't think deeply or understand deep concepts then surely it cannot succumb to deep suffering. If it cannot succumb to deep suffering then you can't argue that God allows animals to suffer deeply and therefore you can't argue that God himself is evil for allowing animals to suffer deeply." Now replace "God" with "me drowning puppies." "If an animal can't think deeply or understand deep concepts then surely it cannot succumb to deep suffering. If it cannot succumb to deep suffering then you can't argue that me drowning puppies allows animals to suffer deeply and therefore you can't argue that me drowning puppies is evil for allowing animals to suffer deeply." See what I mean? I just demonstrated via your own argument that if I drowned puppies, I would not be evil. Is that the same logic you want to use to defend God Almighty? If so, let's give Him a new title then. "God, The One Who Is Not Evil If You Don't Really Think About It That Much."

@tomforemanx1079

2 жыл бұрын

@wh4ckyWh4le the point I was making was about God, assuming that God is the one that created animals, not yourself. So replacing yourself with God in my message doesn’t make any sense.

@wh4ckywh4le32

2 жыл бұрын

@@tomforemanx1079 so if I created the puppies I drowned, that would make me less/not evil?

“Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.” -The Princess Bride

@jiralishu

3 жыл бұрын

1. Perfect quote. 2. Niv Mizzet's a bitch, go Lazav!

@mism847

3 жыл бұрын

Tell that to people who experience joy. And we can use it differently too: "Life is pleasure, joy. Anyone who says differently is selling something" And you could also say: Tell that to people who experience pain. It's not black and white. It's a mixture.

@ParadymShiftVegan

3 жыл бұрын

aha great memories 😂

@jaredmartin7040

3 жыл бұрын

@@mism847 Sounds like bullshit

@mism847

3 жыл бұрын

@@jaredmartin7040 Be honest with yourself.

An excellent and balanced presentation. I have studied philosophy and theology since I entered a Catholic seminary more than 40 years ago. I have yet to see any rational arguments explaining the Problem of Evil in any compelling or satisfying manner. The massive amount of unmerited suffering in the world is simply incompatible with the concept of an all-loving, omnipotent and omniscient deity.

thank you. Thank you for this video!!!!! As an ex Christian and animal lover and vegan for 35 years you said just what I think For me this is one of the best videos ever!!

@CaliforniaSurfer-gc2xv

5 ай бұрын

Say YWH or any Sky Fairy is real they have to be SUPER PSYCHO EVIL I hate when people get into arguments about this or that, this all I need for this debate.

I'm a volunteer rescuer, specifically for cats, of which I have helped rescue literally thousands over the years. I have keenly observed that animals experience not just physical pain, but emotional pain to a heartbreaking degree. ​On nearly a daily basis, I deal with the horrible consequences of abominable things humans do to cats. You know those late-night SPCA promos that show animals dumped in shelters with empty-eyed, crushed-soul looks on their faces-- those promos that probably cause you to change the channel? That's the look animals get when the realization sets in that the person who meant the world to that animal has just cast them aside as if they meant nothing. It's the expression people grind onto cats' faces with the heels of their heartlessness. People who are not in rescue never see that look but, if you were a rescuer, you'd know that look. I and other rescuers have seen that look hundreds of times, and I've helped heal the wounds, mental and physical, of animals who were so heartlessly dumped by people as though they were nothing. Christians, that Craig seems to be the best you've got exemplifies how weak your position is.

@donaldmcronald2331

Жыл бұрын

Animals are emitional too! It's a shame that many people don't see this and don't take animal suffering seriously. They can suffer emotionally and psychologically. Trauma can happen in animals too.

@panchopuskas1

Жыл бұрын

Do your cats eat meat products by any chance..?

@roybarrows9733

Жыл бұрын

@@panchopuskas1 Oddly enough, they do.

@dryfox11

Жыл бұрын

@@roybarrows9733 Almost like they’re omnivores 0.o

@DoloresLehmann

Жыл бұрын

Craig is FAR from being the best we've got. I would recommend you to read "The sound of life's unspeakable beauty" by Martin Schleske.

Dogs aren't aware of their pain!?!? Has this man never seen an abused dog!?!?

@Jubanen12

3 жыл бұрын

Man is just talking nonsense, bunch of theories that have nothing to do with reality. You said it yourself, we all have seen (unfortunately) animals that have been abused and to claim they don't feel pain is absurd.

@kiythetheocrat5723

3 жыл бұрын

We aren’t talking about dogs, we some on the smartest animals in the world bread them. Dogs don’t have the same intelligent levels as let’s say, a wild boar, deer, or squirrel

@Wrkumlin

3 жыл бұрын

What does intelligence have to do with this? Stepping on any any animal’s tail will illicit a scream of pain plus a physical reaction. Based on Dr. Craig’s claim, my cat is more intelligent than he is. This shows that animals are fully aware of pain. Luckily, they’re not aware of Dr. Craig.

@petethorne5094

3 жыл бұрын

@@Wrkumlin WLC doesn’t ever say they don’t feel pain. Rather that they aren’t aware of themselves in the way humans are. Animals don’t think “*I* am in pain. *I* am suffering”.

@katlegodebeila1796

3 жыл бұрын

Are u south African

I could've accepted his argument as at least something to discuss if he'd said animals don't feel pain the same way humans do. That's at least something we could argue. But we he actually said is so wrong that it falls apart to the most basic of observations. Somebody else mentioned it in the comments. Stepping on a dog's tail. They recoil and yowl and then look at you betrayed, because they felt pain, and were aware of it's cause. They know what part hurt, and why it hurt.

I have already posted a comment on this topic in another video you made where you talked about innocent animal suffering. So I think you should refer to that. In particular I suggest reading Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 8, verses 18-24. I love you, Alex! Thanks for existing!

@lisalatham4389

2 ай бұрын

Which video?

In South Park while killing animals wantonly they said," We have to kill them otherwise they would die". 😂😂

@BruceS42

3 жыл бұрын

Brilliant! Thanks for the laugh, as I rarely see South Park.

@brifox

3 жыл бұрын

Reminds me of the line from Over the Hedge. “See? This is why I called an exterminator. To kill them, before they get hurt like this.”

@nicolasandre9886

3 жыл бұрын

It's coming right for us!

@signposts6189

3 жыл бұрын

@First Name Last Name So you disagree with Alex's animal suffering load of nonsense and prefer the genocidal load of nonsense. Sweet! You're better off embracing the truth that suffering presents no problem for God. He is God.

Damn I remember back when we had baby face Alex. Look at how our boy has grown

@darklightmotion5534

3 жыл бұрын

he handsome

@universecreator988

3 жыл бұрын

The good old days of Christian debunking

@georgewashingtom6516

3 жыл бұрын

@@darklightmotion5534 Don't be gay

@darklightmotion5534

3 жыл бұрын

@@georgewashingtom6516 bitch Im bi also you out here assuming my gender? How ya know Im male?

@justingutierrez233

3 жыл бұрын

@@darklightmotion5534 lmao right? Wtf

Excellent video! Craig often do that thing where he states how things work as a some obvious proof of how beautifully everything is put together and then the inclined masses themselves can scream "miracle!" to "prove" his point. Silly. On the contrary I don't think Christianity should be relegated to history, it should write a new chapter on what's grown more relevant as we become more globally connected as a species: the real evil of indifference. In it you'd find what you're asking for. But to allow it you'd have to be more than a skeptic. Good luck and Godspeed!

Have you considered reading or discussing Bentley Heart on this? His response to the suffering in nature is quite convincing to me.

Thumbnail looks like Alex is about to drop the hardest Christian Rock album of 2021 Edit: Wow thanks for the likes, Alex Imma collab with you one day 👀 might be a while though 😂

@informator5018

3 жыл бұрын

Fønni!

@SavageHenry777

3 жыл бұрын

There's an F word in it

@BenLynch1

3 жыл бұрын

@@SavageHenry777 lol

@thepigeon1639

3 жыл бұрын

Eric Cartman already dropped that.

@filmtherapybw

3 жыл бұрын

Lol true 😂

I wonder why vets use anesthesia when they operate...

@ParadymShiftVegan

3 жыл бұрын

It's like they know something that this nincompoop doesn't 😃

@andrewdeller9744

3 жыл бұрын

Your argument here doesn't really hold up. It is easily countered with, "they use anesthesia to keep their patients still." and then your opponent might follow up with some hard to refute comment like, "most vets will tell you animals experience pain differently." WLC may be fighting a futile cause as a Christian Apologist, but he is no nincompoop. Respect for people please.

@annabizaro-doo-dah

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewdeller9744 Just to say, as a nurse, I was often sickened by the number of medics that claim "children experience pain differently". Didn't make them right, but you wouldn't know it by the way we often (don't) administer analgesia to kids.

@TiagoSalemaG

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewdeller9744 That would be an interesting refutation if animals were only administered general anaesthesia. Many times animals are only given local anaesthesia. They are also prescribed painkillers to take after the surgery and many other circumstances.

@timurhant469

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewdeller9744 I am a vet and I can tell that it is impossible to counter. Just pull the ear a bit hard of a cat and see how fast you are scratched ! All mammals and birds have the same type of pain as we have. There is no "argument" to be made against.

Any respect for W L Craig has totally evaporated through this exposure. Thank you Alex for this brilliant rebuttal of his warped views.

Good video, little side note in your whole explanation you were circling around with one or two counter arguments which yoy repeated a lot, if u can just put a bit mire variety in your qording it would be an amazing video

"Watching KZread videos to avoid... whatever it is you're supposed to be doing right now." I feel attacked.

@AkoSiFrance

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, let's report this channel.. 😅😅😅

@d.r429

3 жыл бұрын

I am avoiding my studies XD I laughed out loud

@js66613

3 жыл бұрын

Same.

"Higher primates...AND human beings" Was he not comfortable just saying that human beings _are_ higher primates?

@wolfil8019

3 жыл бұрын

Particularly amusing, as in the Roman Catholic Church the pope and a number of archbishops also have among their titles "primate". In the RCC the pope is the highest primate ....

@calvinaccount1339

3 жыл бұрын

Higher primate best describes humans when they smoke weed

@spacedoohicky

3 жыл бұрын

Humans are also animals, and he separated that too. He also forgot dolphins.

@robertmiller9735

3 жыл бұрын

That would offend a lot of his listeners.

@hubertagamasu6283

3 жыл бұрын

Are you uncomfortable with his freedom of expression?

I've asked myself the same thing concerning the animal suffering that isn't created by humans. What I could suggest, is that perhaps humans have higher capabilities for things like compassion, and maybe that's why human create societys that are in a way more stable and safer than those in the animal world. On the oder hand, regarding human suffering, well I think most of the suffering is actually caused by humans themselves, since I believe that the world we live in is no more than a reflection of our inner state as individuals. Now, it occurs to me that perhaps suffering may actually have some kind of purpose in existence. If you try to look at it from a more spiritual perspective, maybe earth is not a place where you come to have some sort of vacation, but rather a place you go where you're going to experience some kind of hardships in order to develop your character. Actually in the Bible, it is stated that true followers, should never look at this life as a final destination, but rather as something we have to endure in order to grow on a more spiritual level, wich actually would enable you to have a more fulfilling life in the spiritual reality. That's all I can think of. Good video though 👍

I think Alex O'Connor should read on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, The Buddha. Most of what Alex said in his video regarding suffering are very much in line with the fundamental teaching of Buddhism.

@nokophukubye1348

5 ай бұрын

How?

@krkngd-wn6xj

Ай бұрын

I think you should read the title of the video, as this is an objection to Christianity, not Buddhism.

“The Patrician took a sip of his beer. “I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect I never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I’m sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining on mother and children. And that’s when I first learned about evil. It is built into the nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.” -Terry Pratchett (Unseen Academicals)

@debhurd8898

Жыл бұрын

Excellent 👍 Anyone who doesn't agree isn't thinking with a clear mind. Thank you for this most intelligent comment.

@ignipotent7276

Жыл бұрын

@@debhurd8898 so someone who disagrees doesn't have a clear mind ..wow

@jpraise6771

Жыл бұрын

I understand your argument, but that example is flawed. Animals live lesser existences than us, and as such trying to find a moral compass in anything outside of what was created in God's image is meaningless. To be even more specific, fishes almost exist to be food for other species, with them having some of the lowest intelligences of any animals

@debhurd8898

Жыл бұрын

@@jpraise6771 WoW 🙃

@maync1

Жыл бұрын

Nonsense to associate this with evil.

“....existence of tiktok” dead😹😭

@brickbybrick4692

3 жыл бұрын

he is RIGHT

@johngleeman8347

3 жыл бұрын

The darkest blot of human creativity!

@alexmurray4988

3 жыл бұрын

Didn’t know Alex was a redditor

@jml732

3 жыл бұрын

TikTok doesn't exists.

@lemon1632

3 жыл бұрын

Snyone else that looked down to chat to find this comment?

I love this video, the one thing that apologists really tend to fall into, is assuming that the current system is the only way it can be. He used an example, of wolves being introduced to balance the ecosystem, but this isn’t explaining why predation is a thing, only showing how it is used in our current set up. It’s as you said, are we really expected to believe that an all knowing, all powerful god could not have created a system that does not Involve predation and cannibalism? They are trapped in the world that they live in and most if not everything relies on circular reasoning where they justify the most vile and horrible things, this is why the world is the way it is.

Pain is a sensation diffused to the brain by neurotransmitters released by nerve endings subjected to certain stimuli. Parts of the body that do not contain nerves, such as finger nails and hair, cannot feel pain. Therefore whether pain is experienced is contingent on which of the two conditions is the case. I don't understand how it would be possible to be "in pain" and not be aware of it given that "pain" is a name that we give to a sensation, unless we are in _If a tree fell in the forest and nobody heard it, did it make a noise?_ territory. In any case, Christians as such do not normally concern themselves with animal suffering because it would conflict with their worldview that holds that humanity is at the centre of and the prime motive for Creation. Modesty is not something that religious apologists can ever be accused of despite their open admission that we are nought but a failed experiment.

"Animals aren't aware they're in pain" Have you ever seen a dog with an abusive owner flinch when someone goes to pet it? Yeah they're aware of pain

@TheSonicShoe

10 ай бұрын

Yeah... The implications of his line of reasoning are incredibly disturbing. We don't know for a fact if animals are self aware or not. We DO know for a fact that babies are not, since we all used to be them, and know we weren't self aware at that time. If there is some moral distinction between experiencing pain, and being self aware of your pain experience.... Then babies would be in the same camp he argues animals are in. I really hope ol' Billy C. doesn't need someone to explain to him that pain suffered by babies is still just as bad as pain suffered by adults...

@happinesstan

9 ай бұрын

@@TheSonicShoe Are we even certain that humans are self aware? From what I've come to understand self-awareness develops when we recognise our reflection to be our self. I suspect we're far from self aware. Truth is, you are not allowed to become aware of yourself, when you are born. Every need is provided for. It's anything but a natural birth, which raises the question "is there anything natural about human nature?" Somewhere, in the deepest recesses of your mind is your first ever experience. What do you think it looks like? Not the memory, the experience.

@happinesstan

9 ай бұрын

@@TheSonicShoe Actually, I'd argue it's less traumatic. a lot of the trauma is psychological and tougher to overcome for an adult. But let's be honest, who remembers the midwife smacking their arse?

@darkerthanblue9

7 ай бұрын

Prove it

@jwmmitch

7 ай бұрын

@darkerthanblue9 price that dogs with abusive owners flinch when people go to pet them? Are you saying that isn't true? Ok then... how about shock collars being effective means of training animals? What about animals crying out in pain when their hurt? It's just absolutely asinine to suggest animals aren't aware of pain. Even if it's experienced differently than humans (we're also animals btw) it's still pain. Animals have emotions too; this is easily demonstrable with dogs again when their happy to see their owners, sad when they're left at shelters etc.

Consider a dog that steps on a nail. The dog yelps. When the dog walks on the injured foot, he yelps again. This is pain awareness. How does Dr Craig square why a dog decides to limp? Limping is a conscience effort to avoid discomfort. If the dog wasn't aware it was in pain, why the fuck limp?

@althenimble

3 жыл бұрын

Watch Boston Dynamics’ robots getting kicked - why do they stop themselves from falling? I disagree with Dr Craig that this is “useful” to the Christian, but the idea is not so easily dismissed. See “the problem of other minds’

@MrRyan-wu4jx

3 жыл бұрын

@@althenimble I don’t understand your robot falling example can you expand?

@althenimble

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrRyan-wu4jx Imagine you wanted to program a robotic dog. You're like Boston Dynamics, but N years in the future - you also have self-healing tech in your robots. However, the self-healing takes time. Your robotic dog damages his foot. Say in order for the self-healing tech to work efficiently, you shouldn't put additional stress on the damaged foot. A well-programmed robotic-dog would now limp. You could make the same argument about a real-world dog (I'm not saying they are the same, just that this argument could be coherently made). The *appearance* of pain makes perfect sense without the (internal, subjective) *experience* of pain. In philosophy, this is related to the concepts known as "philosophical zombies" and "the problem of other minds" and belongs to the discipline of philosophy of mind. Hope that's helpful!

@althenimble

3 жыл бұрын

Of course you may say the "yelp" is harder to explain than the limp, but as long as it has an evolutionary explanation, it makes sense with or without a subjective conscious experience. And if it doesn't have an evolutionary explanation, why do we (and other animals) do it?

@MrRyan-wu4jx

3 жыл бұрын

@@althenimble I’d argue all that’s irrelevant based on other evidence we have like the Yelp you’ve mentioned and personal experience like watching a cat suffer from cancer or my dogs demeanor when arthritis took over it’s body. I can’t think of any reason my one cat would bite it’s tail to the point we had to put him in a collar other than he was experiencing pain. I really don’t think that idea can be used to definitively state animals don’t feel pain anyway, at best it explains a possibility why they might not, not that they absolutely don’t.

As a follower of Christ, I must say I agree with you. The existence of suffering is extremely difficult to reconcile with the existence of an all powerful all loving God. I cant explain it because I cant. I will make only these notes: 1. To the clay, the process of burning in the hot oven may seem like unnecessary suffering. Same with iron being smelted in a furnace and hammered again and again on the anvil. We are small beings limited in our intellegence and our perspective. We do not have eyes that see beyond space and time. We do not have a heavenly or an eternal perspective. What looks like a woman screaming out in pain might be the birth of a baby from a different perspective. 2. Just remember that if people have suffered, God suffered most of all. And He did it willingly in order to save us.

@rizdekd3912

10 ай бұрын

But also remember that whatever humans are, there were created that way...each...individually... by Jesus...at least if we're to believe John 1. It is interesting that you say he did it willingly yet we have his own words, 'not my will but thine be done.' Who was he talking to? Anyways, it would appear he was only doing it because some other will required/wanted it.

@xrendezv0usx

10 ай бұрын

@rizdekd3912 you are surprised that Jesus wasn't looking forward to being scourged and crucified by the Romans? Despite the horrors of the task, Jesus willingly did it, in obedience to the Father. Because He loves us so much. It's funny how well versed you are in Scripture, yet you can not see.

@rizdekd3912

10 ай бұрын

@@xrendezv0usx I am not surprised he wasn't looking forward to it. I'm just saying he wasn't willing. He was cajoled into it by some other will against his will. He said so himself.

@xrendezv0usx

10 ай бұрын

@rizdekd3912 As it is written: "I lay down my life-only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." But anyways it's clear that you know Scripture well enough to know the gospel. Youve been shown that the Son of God sacrificed Himself in order to cleanse you of your sins and give you eternal life, and your response is to play word games with Scripture about who made Him do it. You are wrestling with yourself. Whatever dude, I really don't care. Believe what you will and reject His offer if you like. Do as you wish! Best to you :)

@rizdekd3912

10 ай бұрын

​@@xrendezv0usx Don't leave out the first part of that text, "The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again." It sounds oddly like the Father would not have loved him if he had not done what his Father willed him to do. I think the words are important if one is to claim this isn't human sacrifice. In order to keep his father's love he had lay down his life...even if just for a few days.

Buddha recognized that Life is Suffering. The mistake in thinking regarding the Problem of Evil is that we project our human needs and desires to an Anthropomorphised version of a manager somewhere out there that is responsible for everything tha transpires on our material level. We suffer, we want someone to solve the problem. This is a very mundane material existence and God (as incorrectly understood in Western religions has nothing to do with it. The Christian view is of a Monarchical King like figure that needs to be worshipped and whose actions are beyond reproach. But, if we view "God" as fundamental Conscious Existence itself of which we are simply localized reflections, we can simply place the responsibility on our selves. This is the arena in which we need to learn and recognize the reality of our own higher nature. We don't need a religion to tell us we are incapable of this "awakening" unless we believe that another God like figure is the only way to save ourselves from this existence's pain. It's not a God problem. It's a problem with how we define God. Of course a strong argument against the literal Christian definition of "God" is a valid argument. It's just an argument against a singular, misguided traditional, anachronistic definition.

The same “reasoning” regarding the reduced suffering of animals was commonly used to justify mistreatment of humans that were of a different group.

@Superman111181

3 жыл бұрын

This is true. However, it doesn't make the arrangement false. It is possible to be true for animals that lack prefrontal cortex

@anandsuralkar2947

3 жыл бұрын

@@Superman111181 yes..and still animals suffer.its not that simple

@Superman111181

3 жыл бұрын

@@anandsuralkar2947 I think the point of the argument was that suffering is ill-defined sans prefrontal cortex. So without a better definition we could be in danger of equivocation

@Hy-jg8ow

3 жыл бұрын

@@anandsuralkar2947 He confuses sentience with sapience. Sentience is merely the capacity to have experiences (+ pleasant and unpleasant sensations). Sapience is the ability to reason. The latter is not necessary for harm to be experienced, the former is enough. Some higher order animals like dogs, pigs, cats, cows etc demonstrate not only sentience, but an ability to have emotions, like sadness and joy - these are complex enough psychological states that they are on the very border of sapience.

@victorianjeri1000

3 жыл бұрын

Yoh

Great video. As a dog owner and prior Christian, my experiences having a dog around inside for years has changed my previous ideas about animal intelligence, feelings, etc. Dogs clearly have emotions and other higher qualities and attributes. More than what many people give them credit for. Though I haven't spent as much time around other animals, I would assume that many others have these same characteristics to varying degrees. To think that they don't know pain and suffering is ridiculous. Animals experience fear, sadness from loss, loneliness, happiness, contentment, boredom, and many others. Many animals also have unique personalities.

@rodshop5897

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly, after living with and studied animals for my entire life, the idea that they don't know they are suffering is patently ridiculous. The book Peterson is referring to is one by a philosopher, not a biologist, and it's understanding of animal experiences and intelligence is out of date.

@rodshop5897

2 жыл бұрын

@@dr.jones.3832 You do realize that we need to conduct some experiments on animals in order to save other animals and humans?

@rodshop5897

2 жыл бұрын

@@dr.jones.3832 I agree it is inhumane to torture, but I would contend that most of the work scientists do with animals is not cruel or inhumane at all. But I'm sure your mind is firmly made up.

@michaelpond813

2 жыл бұрын

Why are animals so easy to love when people are such pains in the ars. ??? Ask. God heknows.

@rodshop5897

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelpond813 God never picks up when I call him. I guess he's just holy ghosting me.

Philosophical question: Isn't there a difference between experiencing the feeling of pain and being aware that you are in pain? I assume that an infant can experience the feeling of pain; but not be aware that she is in pain. So, I take the "pre-frontal-cortex" claim that Craig makes to involve "being aware that I am in pain." But that is irrelevant to whether or not I suffer. I suffer because I experience the feeling of pain, not because I am aware of the fact that I am in pain. Does that make sense?

@saratoga6663

2 ай бұрын

then that doesn't really make a difference to your suffering then? if you didn't know the difference between a gunshot and a stab wound you would still be in pain and suffering because of one or the other.

Wow his opening statement is so true and i was struck by some shock and a little embarrassment that in all my ponderings over religion ive never considered this either. Bravo sir, its so simple yet so important.

It's possible that animals suffer even more then humans, when they're in pain. maybe they don't have as much capability as humans to distract themselves from the pain and cannot rationalize that the pain will end soon.

@tangerinetangerine4400

3 жыл бұрын

Comparable to children in some ways.

@squeegybeckenheim2489

3 жыл бұрын

@@tangerinetangerine4400 That's what I was thinking.

@piau1798

3 жыл бұрын

And if you think about their senses being like 10 times better than humans in some cases, you start wondering whether or not they may sense more in other areas too (physically), not just eyesight or smell.

@Superman111181

3 жыл бұрын

@@tangerinetangerine4400 yeah. What about children in the womb? Do they suffer if they are aborted?

@ghuttsmckenzie4269

3 жыл бұрын

@@Superman111181depending on how old the fetus is, no.

I'd love to see the "Islam's biggest problem" version

@proculusjulius7035

3 жыл бұрын

Just order a bacon sandwich and eat it near a mosque 😂😂😂

@costas1032

3 жыл бұрын

@@proculusjulius7035 that's more of a problem of Muslims then of islam .

@proculusjulius7035

3 жыл бұрын

@@costas1032 oh so it's Muslims who say that pork is haram and therefore there's nothing wrong if I take my pig for a walk in the mosque eh?

@costas1032

3 жыл бұрын

@@proculusjulius7035 Islam says that pork is prohibited but it says nothing about what will happen to you if you it a pork sandwich. why would you take a pig or to a mosque when you know that it's holy place and desecrating it will be very offensive and can be considered an act of bigotry . you get your cat in the mosque though.

@thedeebo410

3 жыл бұрын

Since Muslims tend to just ineptly mimic Christian apologetic arguments, this is kind of a two-for-one video.

If things were easy, what would you learn? You have to be put in difficult situations so the universe can see what you will choose.

I will say that he's right about some animals not experiencing pain the way we do, the keyword there is SOME. all pain is, is a warning system that something is wrong and we need to deal with it. A lot of insects don't actually feel pain, an example would be a wasp loosing it's head and trying to then eat the decapitated head out of instinct instead of writhing in agony. That doesn't mean animal torture is okay or anything, I'm just trying to say that he's no 100% wrong. Still mostly wrong tho.

Well damn, I honestly thought Craig would’ve said something like “Adrenaline and being in shock mitigates the pain of being eaten” rather than “animals feel a feeling they don’t feel so it’s fine.”

@QuintarFarenor

3 жыл бұрын

Yea if Craig wasn't already almost the bottom of the barrel in my opinion, he would be now. I mean, I'm not a vegetarian and I know about the suffering of animals. Craig doesn't seem to be even be aware of that.

@bladesxf

3 жыл бұрын

The first passage I would have expected in response to this subject would be from Romans 8:18-25: 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

@EllenMJKrog

3 жыл бұрын

Saying animals are not smart enough to understand pain and therefore don't feel it is such a bad argument. Same argument was used to excuse doing unspeakable things to those with neurological or developmental disabilities or differences. Like a similar vein of logic led to a lot of nazi sht.. totally not okay. It's a bad idea that can too easily lead to bad things

@troycalhoun8438

3 жыл бұрын

@@EllenMJKrog Alex, here, does not address any of Craig's work on the issue of animal suffering outside of this debate. Nor does he address any of Michael Murray's work on the issue, whom Craig references extensively. Simply, none of the arguments being made by Craig or Murray go along the lines of "animals are not smart enough to understand pain and therefore don't feel it." If you are interested in Michael Murray's work, I would refer you to his book Nature Red in Tooth and Claw: Theism and the Problem of Animal Suffering.

@stanfrymann8454

3 жыл бұрын

@@troycalhoun8438 I am not interested in nonsense. The idea that animals don't feel pain is nonsense. Pain is one of the most adaptive responses imaginable. It is not some recent addition, like the ability to do "philosophy". It is rock bottom basic and ancient. When are we going to get it: people are animals!

If you ever become an antinatalist you should rename your channel to CosmicContraception

@phillipanselmo8540

3 жыл бұрын

just found my new channel name thanks a lot

@Cookiekeks

3 жыл бұрын

Haha

@n-no_w-wait4889

3 жыл бұрын

@Andre Ghio I hope you know this but people are much less likely to listen to you if your attitude is like that. Instead, be patient, pleasant and explain why you think abortion is bad rather than attacking people and insulting them. Hope you have a great day, and more power to you! (Also I'm pretty sure Alura made a joke, so don't be so mad about it)

@phillipanselmo8540

3 жыл бұрын

@Andre Ghio not wanting children doesn't mean I support abortion

@user-hi2fp1he5g

3 жыл бұрын

@Andre Ghio Say one non religious argument against abortion! Heck, say a religious one that isn't fallacious! Else you're just here to attack people and shame them for their lifestyle choices.

The bit around 16:40 reminds me of the scene in an episode of _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ ("The Battle", 1987) in which Doctor Crusher gives Captain Picard a treatment for his headache, telling him "Feel better." Amazed by the quick effect, he says "The pain's gone." She says "Medical fakery. The pain is actually still there. It's just cloaked." Ridiculous.

I don’t think he ever says they are incapable of suffering but that they suffer in a different way. In addition to this I believe Craig isn’t saying that predation is the only way the Christian God could solve this but that it is a way that that God has done. Not trying to commenting on Alex’s counter-argument but as a point of note I think he missed. And remember to treat everyone and everything with respect.

As a Christian, I want to thank you for making this video, it is very thought-provoking and is something I would like to consider further 🙏 I wish you all a blessed day

@readynowforever3676

Жыл бұрын

As a passionate Atheist, I'd advise you during your cogitating, you might not want to defenestrate "Jesus". Because when our species created "god" and invented all the religions, it was often done for a specific purpose: Rules--Routine--primarily for community STRUCTURE. Thee other two VITALLY IMPERATIVE reasons we invented religion, is for: Meaning (&) Hope

@thebelen2359

Жыл бұрын

@@Dream-Eternal87 I think a possible origin for morality is that humans created it as a tool to survive. We are a lot more likely to survive as a pack than as indivituals, so treating each other well is useful to the goals of staying alive and thriving. That is why arguably the most fundamental moral rule that seems to appear in every society is that killing a human being (or what is percieved as a human being, of course there have been socities to consider some inferior for reasons like race) for absolutly no reason, is wrong. Everything else, be it killing people in other scenarios, treatment and value of indivituals belonging to other species, slavery, theft, assault, colonization, discrimination, drugs, alcohol, gun control, sex, freedom, cheating or lying, is far more debated and views on them have shifted a lot more depending on place, time and culture. And of course they have; they aren't as instrumental to our survival as a species. You also said we can determine what is right and what is wrong, and to that I have to ask, can we? Really? Our species has had entire civilizations (so, not a few psychopaths or nut cases, no, entire socities - normal people) that supported slavery, genocides, and war among other things. There are still so, so many things that are extremely debated to this day, the same way things that are now widely accepted to be good or bad were once debated. And who knows? Maybe some of the things that are widely considered to be morally grey now will one day be put in strict black and white boxes too. Maybe morality will change in such a way that our society and the moral codes that are accepted in it will one day be seen as corrupt and twisted the same way we view some past socities. Would any of that extremely broad diversity of opinion be possible if we could so clearly determine an objective right and wrong? I personally don't think so. But because we haven't been given objective answers by some indisputable, flawless force (at least one that we all believe in), there is so much uncertainty, conflict and subjectivity over morality. That got longer than I expected, sorry lol. Kind of got carried away. Anyway, I respect your opinion and I do not want to seem agressive or like I'm coming at you, these are just my thoughts.

@MM-yi9zn

Жыл бұрын

Craig is in denial & in delusion.Animals suffer actually as do we.

@dryfox11

Жыл бұрын

@@thebelen2359 You’re 100% right, it’s a useful tool. Hope can be good, but when mixed with the wrong people can turn quite sour (ya know… all the wars and innocents slaughtered…) but yeah, as you were also saying, morality is subjective. There is no “good and bad,” they are made up, actions are actions that have effects and consequences. Morals are really just an opinion on how you should live. Therefore, not objective, definitely subjective lol

@MrKlauk

Жыл бұрын

@@readynowforever3676 Liam Armstrong is saying how they think the video is thought-provoking. You’re antagonizing does nothing helpful, let people believe and be interested in whatever they want. Your behaviour is partially what can make atheists look bad.

There are many animals that have been observed as being “self-aware”, including dolphins. Craig’s argument was awful

@rokosbasilisk5376

3 жыл бұрын

How did they find this out? Do you have a source for that?

@micahaalders9840

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, magpies can tell their own reflection from the faces of others

@GregVidua

3 жыл бұрын

And all typically farmed animals too - chickens, cows, pigs, to name a few. Primer on chickens intelligence is "Thinking chickens: a review of cognition, emotion, and behavior in the domestic chicken." by Lori Marino. You can find similar research on cows and especially pigs. I've picked chickens as they are considered stupid by most people.

@NateROCKS112

3 жыл бұрын

Isn't that literally the definition of sentience?

@GregVidua

3 жыл бұрын

@@NateROCKS112 not necessarily.

I can't remember any pain I had as a baby.. Yet I must of had some discomfort and had a physical response to that discomfort.. Yet up till the age of conscious awareness I don't recall registering any pain

Naturalists may be able to explain animal suffering by accepting that it’s just the way it is naturally, but how does that give you any hope or peace? At least a theist can appeal to a God’s wisdom in all of it-even if we don’t fully understand or like His reasoning.

@O.Reagano

4 ай бұрын

No you can’t appeal to any wisdom, you’re assuming that there is any.

Craigs point about animals not feeling pain is kind of horrifying. Some people have conditions where they can’t feel pain, yet it would still be immoral to brutally murder them.

@rotorblade9508

3 жыл бұрын

He just want to avoid the problem of God allowing animals to suffer so he simply makes the absurd assumption of course

@joesifa5235

3 жыл бұрын

So basically if you agree with this video you are saying that dogs🐕 and cats🐈 and birds🦅🐤🐧 and fish🐟🐠🦈 shouldn't exist at all and everything should be grazers🐑🐐🐄🦌 that can have a max of 1 or 2 kids....

@AliceSpeltRight

3 жыл бұрын

@@joesifa5235A god could’ve created a vastly better, more efficient and less gruesome system that didn’t involve excessive pain, death, and suffering. And yet he didn’t, what does that say about the gods character? God chose, CHOSE to have sheep be torn apart in violent excruciating pain.

@joesifa5235

3 жыл бұрын

@@AliceSpeltRight You're right. Here's what God says: “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD. Isaiah 65:25 (NASB)

@AliceSpeltRight

3 жыл бұрын

@@joesifa5235 I mean snakes don’t eat dust, but that’s not here nor there. I don’t see your point. It’s ok because god said he made the atrocious system? Just because he made it doesn’t make it ok.

You'll notice Craig admits that "primates", not just human primates, are aware of pain, but just carries on talking about humans hoping you'll quickly forget about the other great apes.

@Xalendare15

3 жыл бұрын

I caught this, as well. Guess we're just throwing chimpanzees under the bus?

@Infideles

3 жыл бұрын

And they've been used for experiments for many decades, with no regard for their suffering. Of course, zoos are no different, they are imprisoned without any regard for the misery it might cause.

@deez420nuts69

3 жыл бұрын

A squirrel has 4 legs and a tail. So does a rhino. Does that mean they are relatives? Or that they simply have a similar structure? I'll believe the evolution debate when flamingos design nuclear weapons and wage war against each other's nations.

@deez420nuts69

3 жыл бұрын

@YouOnlyLiveTwice Exactly my point

@christopherwaters740

3 жыл бұрын

Right. And of course he doesn’t say much about souls since those are the most debunked theological concept.

Human ultimate goal is happiness. When your life is full of joy you achieve your ultimate goal. When you are self sufficient you don't need God. God enters your mind via need or hope. When you are in calamities, you keep the hope to end those calamities. When you have a faith in God, you positively do efforts to end those calamities. When you don't have faith in God, you become hopeless and commit suicide. If there is no God then you can never have a hope. If you keep hope then it shows that somehow in your inner self you believe in a God.

I accidentally stepped on my puppy's paw. Not only did she yelp, but she held up her paw for about a minute or two. She was fine, but my point is, she was clearly experiencing pain.

"Animals aren't self-aware and thus don't really experience pain the same way we do" is just "Animals don't have souls so their suffering doesn't really count" in another guise

@armando429046

2 жыл бұрын

My version of this argument is.... They are not human let them di

@stallonegodinho6296

2 жыл бұрын

@@armando429046 Why is this guy not talking about hurting plants. Isn't that Vegan diet?

@BlacksmithTWD

2 жыл бұрын

The word 'anima' literally means 'soul', hence to argue that "animals don't have souls" is just being foolish at best.

@wickedguppy3715

2 жыл бұрын

@@BlacksmithTWD You assert that humans and other animals have a "soul". Presence of a soul is not in evidence and is as poorly defined as the term "spiritual". The emergent property of a brain and CNS along the animal kingdom's evolutionary pathways has long since imbued all animal species with the ability to suffer in pain. Assuming that animals feel pain because human beings sinned has got to be the biggest stretch of logic in the annals of Christiandom.

@BlacksmithTWD

2 жыл бұрын

@@wickedguppy3715 No I'm not asserting anything, I merely argue that the word animal is derrived from the latin word for soul. It still could be they don't have a soul but instead are souls. I'm not that familiar with the world vieuw of the first speakers of latin, so I don't know what they meant with it. I would merely argue that there must be some connection. I don't know why you are bringing in concepts like sin and pain experience among animals into the conversation, I certainly didn't mention it. Seems to me that you are the one assuming too much here.

Obviously Craig never had to take his dog to the vet. A few months ago I had to take my dog to the vet, and because they were still doing COVID protocol I had to wait in my care. I got to see all of the people taking their dogs in. One lady had a large dog in the back seat of her vehicle This lady was pulling on the leash with all her might but the dog would not move. This dog obviously remembered getting her shots, remembered they were painful, and remembered where she got them. Yes, dogs remember locations. My dog loves going to my mother's house because she always gets treats. We live in walking distance and if I tell her to "Go to grandma's house" she knows exactly where to go, on her own, without a leash.

@TristandeRobillard

Жыл бұрын

I have a suspicion that Craig misinterpreted the findings of that paper. I have not read it myself, but logically, the only thing I can assume is that, when he read "they don't have the SAME pain awareness", he thought that meant, "Well, then. they don't feel pain." More than likely - and again, I am assuming right now - what Murray meant was that an animal can experience pain, be aware of it, and try to avoid whatever caused said pain, but they probably cannot form any kind of intellectual relationship with it. In other words, they can react to it, but do not think about it beyond the feeling of it, and probably would not be able to decide whether or not enduring it on purpose would be worth it in the way we do when consenting to medical treatments or helping others in danger. That sounds like a much more believable difference to me.

@GoldenMechaTiger

Жыл бұрын

@@TristandeRobillard Well not for medical treatments. That is a bit too abstract of a concept for a dog I imagine. But you could say that they decide to endure it on purpose to do something different like biting their way out of a cage causing their mouth to bleed or to force themselves through a prickly bush to escape something scary, they can choose to walk on rocks that hurt their paws if there's some treat they really want on the other end.

@TristandeRobillard

Жыл бұрын

@@GoldenMechaTiger That makes perfect sense to me, yes. That whole claim that Craig makes honestly holds up less and less the more you think about it.

I think it would help your thinking to divide what you call evil into evil and unjust suffering (the tree falling onto the deer's leg being the latter).

The third level of pain is an interesting concept. Higher reasoning definitely let's us look at pain from a meta perspective, which can itself cause anxiety and discomfort. It objectively allows self aware and rational beings a layered and deeper experience of suffering. However, our higher reasoning and depth to suffering, doesn't mean we're suffering more. We don't immediately panic from every sensation of pain, rationality and understanding pain is rather helpful to enduring it, and even willingly going through it when necessary.

@tardis103

Жыл бұрын

This is one of the main concepts behind stoic philosophy

@sergioibarra3461

Жыл бұрын

Yes but even the most basic neuron circuits can, after being exposed to constant pain, adapt into being more tolerant to pain by augmenting the threshold of response. Functionally animals experience pain almost equally to us, we may understand it better but the sensation will not change because of our understanding, just because of how neurons work. We only differentiate in being able to prepare for a painful experience beforehand maybe like when going to the doctor to get a vaccine or something.

@scottharrison812

Жыл бұрын

One day advanced aliens arrive and decide to poke about inside our brains and bodies because, hey, we’re way down in on the hierarchy of pain…

@GreyPunkWolf

Жыл бұрын

Can mean we suffer less, too. If we need to be aware of the suffering to experience it, then that explains why people who get injured but don't notice it instantly have varying amounts of delay between the moment of the injury and the moment they feel its repercussions. More to do with a kind of reverse placebo effect imo, but it's at least a bit interesting to dig into that thought, so I'm sharing it.

@Vegan400

Жыл бұрын

Circus animals are on constant fear of further pain which is why they perform tricks so they don’t get hurt. They also suffer from mental struggles such as ptsd depression and anxiety.

Original sin. Some microbe offended God in the dawn of time and since then we are all punished.

@n-no_w-wait4889

3 жыл бұрын

@mr.anonymous it's kind of the opposite though...? The father's sins are heaped upon the heads of his children-

@onigbajamo

3 жыл бұрын

@@n-no_w-wait4889 You'll find both in the bible.

@hearthebellsring3990

3 жыл бұрын

@@onigbajamo can u give me the scriptures for that pls

@pauligrossinoz

3 жыл бұрын

@@hearthebellsring3990 - Bible verses as requested: *Deuteronomy 24 : 16* _Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin._ Yet thar verse is flatly contradicted by the story of the same god killing an innocent baby boy explicitly to punish the baby's father: *2 Samuel 12 : 13 - 18* NIV _Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die._ _But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”_ _After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill._ _… On the seventh day the child died._ *The road to atheism is paved with Bibles that have actually been **_read._*

@anonymouscollins9618

3 жыл бұрын

He litterly just disproved your god lol

I had to write a paper on the existence of god in my college philosophy class. One of my biggest arguments against the existence of god was that of suffering. My professor simply wrote at the bottom of my paper, “Who’s to say we have a good/just god” 😂

@TorianTammas

3 ай бұрын

The simple definition of god as all powerful all knowing and all caring we often herr. This alone makes him/her/it impossible to exist.

@lisalatham4389

2 ай бұрын

@@TorianTammas that is a subjective opinion. That's like saying you can't make tamato sauce with tomatoes. My point is that God should not be put in a box. What most atheists do. An intelligent and all-powerful being has the potential to be loving or evil.

@mrsatire9475

2 ай бұрын

@@lisalatham4389 How do you attain this God like power you have? You must be smarter than all humans that ever lived (combined) to be able to determine if another being really knows everything. Timothy 2:12

@lisalatham4389

2 ай бұрын

@@mrsatire9475 I don't claim to be smart or intelligent. I am simply asserting or saying this based on research and common sense.

@lisalatham4389

2 ай бұрын

@@mrsatire9475 Yes, that is the definition of God. If we talk about God's attributes, we should not put God in a box because this contradicts the idea or nature of God.

Not being conscious of pain is not the same as not being able to feel pain.

Craig's argument is what I like to call the "Thanos argument."

@jamesparson

3 жыл бұрын

When Thanos killed, living did not suffer pain, just fear.

I understood the 2nd level of pain in a different, but horrifying way. If animals are not self-aware, they're driven by instinct. So when a dog is hungry, it doesn't think "I'm hungry. I should get some food." It just thinks "hungry." If pain is the same for an animal, I'd say it's worse than human pain. They can't try to focus on something else, or reason that pain is not real, or disassociate in any way. Their brain is just screaming "pain."

@bradlast7839

Жыл бұрын

I disagree I think pain without the cognitive ability to emotionally suffer is basically nothing just another input Obviously animals can emotionally suffer but i find it hard to believe they can emotionally suffer as much as humans Humans are experts at emotional suffering

@MrBevoRules

Жыл бұрын

@@bradlast7839 I would agree that heartbreak, worry, and other emotional pain are (mostly) human issues, but I was talking about physical pain.

@bradlast7839

Жыл бұрын

@@MrBevoRules yeah but im saying physical pain by itself isnt suffering The suffering we experience of physical pain is actually an emotional response If you could switch off emotions pain would be just another sensory input like the rest There would be no distinguishing it from sensations that feel good

@falcon_arkaig

Жыл бұрын

@@bradlast7839 Respectful disagree on this one. Animals can experience the same mental illnesses we can. Like Anxiety, Depression, PTSD, and even PPD (postpartum depression, if female ofc). You think a cat cannot feel grave pain and suffering when she looses a kit? Or an Orca feeling suffering because they're trapped in a cage all day without they're family? Animals are smart. Elephants grieve over fallen members of their tribe, they've been seen having funerals. Of course the level of intelligence is a spectrum. A cat is far more intelligent then a gecko. So it kinda depends

@bradlast7839

Жыл бұрын

@@falcon_arkaig i didnt say they cant feel emotional pain I specified that they cannot to the degree humans can Human suffering knows such depths only theough the high levels of self awareness we have We ad layers of self torture on top of the external i fluences to ourselves in a very unique way

Animals don't need to be self aware to feel pain. There is an issue with even defining what consciousness is, but to claim that it somehow lives in the prefrontal cortex is utter nonsense. There is often a lack of distinction between conscious pain and unconscious nociception ( pain perception ) but even this makes little sense because the purpose of pain is to get your brain's attention, so it can respond to it. We can respond to pain without even realising what is happening. Like animals. A human baby is not self aware and yet nobody would want to justify harming her. We know that preverbal trauma is not even associated with explicit memories but it is still "embodied " in our nervous system. We know that when when a fear response is triggered, our prefrontal cortex comes off line because our survival brain, that we share with alligators, takes over. Yet, we feel the pain in the same way even when our thinking is compromised. Pain is a signal that something is wrong and needs attention. Its pathways in simpler animals use the same chamicals as in our brains. We know that fish have nervous systems that respond to pain. So, like “higher vertebrates,” fish have neurotransmitters such as endorphins that relieve suffering. They are perfectly capable of pain induced avoidant behaviour. The only reason for their nervous systems to produce these painkillers is to alleviate pain.

Great thinking. A new question I haven't heard/considered much before. Some more questions to ask might be, why create pain receptors? or why to create cause and effect realities if the effect can be brutally painful? Why not stop each and every negative affect the moment before it happens to prevent pain and suffering? Why create the world or physical principals that benefit some while agonizingly disparage others based on situational realities. Why have anything / why exist? A Christian perspective might go as far as "God made the animals and saw they were good" obviously not waiting to base His considerations on what every human / animal might think. Do animals consider pain and the badness of it? Is fear a prerequisite to a feeling of purpose / meaningfulness? Does fear give a boundary against chaos? Interesting situations of people who for various reasons seek out way to experience pain (Either on drugs or having medical conditions) might be curious to be answered. I see no reason to believe animals are inherently good or better then humans and may experience endless overstimulation if not met with some predictable form of resistance? (eat until their stomach explodes, itch until their skin falls off, indefinite reproduction attempts forgoing all other activities) I can't know fully and truly these answers only posing questions I've had.

This is one that really bothers me. People talk about how beautiful nature is, and it is if you view it from far away, but look it up close and it's pretty ugly.

@ingc3852

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, nature can be beautiful but it also can be very harmful. Nature can wipe out hundreds of thousands of people/animals in seconds. It can destroys buildings, cities in a couple of minutes.

@Awakeningspirit20

3 жыл бұрын

432 hz is beautiful, which occurs naturally in nature. But this could be attributed to biology; we spent 99.9999% of our existence out there in nature, it's literally in our DNA to feel calmed by the crickets and the sound of bee's wings, the rustling of the trees. If there is a god, it would be better to think of it as a consciousness or frequency that is the only constant in the universe; you can tap into it and be healed/righted/whatever. That's my most non-bullshit, least-indoctrinated explanation, almost on an agnostic level. I can tell you there is something to the universe, as I saw a Wiccan ritual where the guy made a street light turn off during his ritual and it only turned back on when it was done... we just don't really know what. God forbid the bible god actually is real and causing all this; there's no 'interdimensional police' in that case to arrest him and punish him for what he does, and no way to overthrow him (allegedly). We really are trapped in eternal torment then.

@AbandonedVoid

3 жыл бұрын

Unless you're a sadomasochistic Social Darwinist, then it's glorious.

@jimmccarthy80

3 жыл бұрын

...it has become ugly over years of pollution and abuse; I doubt it was always that way. A young deer ran out in front of my truck and I accidentally killed it because I was not able to stop in time. From a distance it was a majestic creature, but when I went up to it to check if it was okay I saw it had the mange all over its backside, part of its nose, and under its jawbone. Not a pretty sight, although I have seen deer in a reserve that are strong and healthy. Same with feral cats as compared with domestic well groomed ones that have nothing to do all day but sleep and keep themselves clean...

@Astropeleki

3 жыл бұрын

That's... Not true. If you look solely at instances where a prey gets eaten, sure. But most of the time an animals's existence is far more peaceful than ours. I doubt this type of argument has much substance when it comes to evidence and, despite liking Alex a lot, I do have a problem with this type of ad populum surrounding pain. That's your subjective view at best, not necessarily reality.

CosmicSkeptic: I have an idea, we could introduce wolves to prey on starving people... Me: Looks up wolf breeding... CosmicSkeptic: Who would think this is a good idea...Nobody! Me: Sheepishly cancels search.

I think it was during the making of ultima online (mmo video game) that the devs wanted to create a very realistic ecosystem for animals, but they didnt account for the player, which were the ultimate predator, and killed everything essentialy breaking the system. Funny how an all powerful being makes the same basic human mistake when it comes to the ecosystem rather than having the reproduction and predation rates simply adjust based on the current state, or just making it so that no predation is necessary, or i na a myriad other ways that a humble human can come up with.

Let me ask, sir: What do you think would be the like of an all-loving God? Sub-questions: - Should the problem of SIN be true if God is good? - Should God who is all-loving throw to hell sinners/disobedient of his laws? What do you think of the event of the cross coded in the New Testament?

The thought occurred to me regarding WLC’s position on suffering: if you ever for whatever reason get into an altercation, you should beat you opponent so hard they loose consciousness, since by definition not being conscious of suffering mean no suffering.

@stephenbrain3620

Жыл бұрын

Good point. And unborn babies, too.

Infants lack self awareness. Does that mean that they cannot "really" feel pain? 18:25 may be the stupidest thing I've heard today.

@tullochgorum6323

3 жыл бұрын

Good point - so according to Dr Ken's theology, torturing babies would be fine because they can't experience pain... His argument is so weak that you have to feel embarrassed for the man. Is he really the best they've got?

@Polarbeardueck

3 жыл бұрын

I think you both are mistaken, for one the you are missing the point, wlc is not saying animals don't feel any kind of pain, his says they do feel pain, but not in the same way as us. You are on the track with your comment on infants, you have first hand experience of this point. We do feel pain as infants but it is not the same kind of pain. I got boiling hot water poured on me as a toddler but I don't see that as painful experience because I was not self aware, I was in some kind of pain when it happened but was not really aware of that pain. Animals do feel pain but they do not know they are in pain, because they are not knowers, they do not know anything. Also just because a being is not self aware of pain doesn't mean that it is okay to cause pain in that being, that is a ridiculous statement, and no one is making that point unless they are trying to strawman the argument

@tullochgorum6323

3 жыл бұрын

@@Polarbeardueck I don't think you've had much contact with vertebrate animals. They can be psychologically traumatised by both pain and by fear of pain, and there's growing evidence that many vertebrates can suffer from clinical depression and PTSD. They get stressed when separated from loved ones. They anticipate pain and stress and take pre-emptive action to avoid it. And unlike the Prof's claim, ALL vertebrates do have a prefrontal cortex - he is simply flat wrong about that. The same can be said of infants. Their experience of pain may be different in degree from ours, but it's simply playing with words to say the don't experience pain "because they are not knowers". Only a psychopathic brute would knowingly subject, say, a pet dog to ongoing physical or psychological abuse, and any normal person observing it would intuitively know that something profoundly wrong was happening. Any dog expert knows immediately if they are dealing with an animal that has been abused in the past - it shows in their behaviour. The same with abused infants - the idea that a scalding would leave no psychological scars is simply naïve. So why is it OK for a perfectly compassionate deity to create an ecosystem which is overwhelmingly brutal and dominated by murder, disease and starvation? You can't explain it away by saying "oh it's OK they don't really feel pain". In the same way as it was wrong to justify slavery by saying - "oh it's OK, blacks are just brutes and don't really feel pain". It's the opposite of a straw-man argument - it's a devastating and unanswerable argument. The Prof's position is so weak as to be risible.

@gixelz

3 жыл бұрын

@@tullochgorum6323 i was going to respond to Beulah Land's comment but you beat me to it. gah, i swear people could come to these conclusions on their own if they thought about it long enough. this shit is crazy.

@Polarbeardueck

3 жыл бұрын

@@tullochgorum6323 I completely agree with most of what you said. I agree with everything in your first paragraph and everything you said about abused animals in your second paragraph. Again i think animals do suffer, however like you said it's not how we suffer, your suffering that you experience is vastly greater than that what a dog will experience. You are right to say that the suffering of animals is not justified because they suffer less than us. I am not saying the suffering of an animal is good, it's not, it is an evil. My position on is much more subtle. I would simply point out that it is good for the animal to exist and that the evil that the animal experiences of pain and death, which is not good, does in fact lead to good, such as other animals which are fed and the sustainability of the ecosystem and the evolution of species

Just my personal observation, we all experience pain but I see suffering as a selfish need for others to recognize our pain and in some way share in it . Who hasn't encountered that person that becomes upset when you don't give them enough pity and sympathy for the pain that they're experiencing ? Suffering is being mad that others don't feel as bad as you do .

An animal cannot suffer unless it is self conscious. So the question is, "Are animals self conscious?" IDK. Maybe an animals self consciousness is related to our relationship with it. Dogs, cats, and horses all seem to be self conscious if you interact with them at all, but then I watch a squirrel in the woods or watch birds and they dont seem to be, they are instinctively reacting to stimuli. And I dont know where the domesticated farm animals fall on this either. But then there are other large mammals like elephants, orcas, and whales and they definitely seem to be self conscious, especially in human captivity.