btw PbO2 can also be used to make stuff other than perchlorate such as membrane electrolysis of CaSO4 or MgSO4 to produce H2SO4 in quite decent amount. It is one of the only materials that can survive that condition also maybe other types of MMO like ATO or IrO2-Ta2O5 and of course pure platinum. I mean with the whole H2SO4 ban in EU maybe you should make a video showing its use in a membrane cell for making H2SO4 since that will enable anyone to make it at home using said electrodes and commonly available plaster of paris.

Absolutely amazing works, i just ordered 2 different kind anodes, Especially that ready kit: anode & kathode +chemicals are super, thanks a lot and please make more videos such this one

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

You are welcome, and thank you very much !! Yes, I will put a video for Perchlorate production and Barium chlorate production !

@nichaen-9902

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges have you discord?

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

​@@nichaen-9902 Yes but it is better to ask me here to enable other to benefit it !

I have just bought this kit and its a work of art, the plates are beautiful and are made in a way that they are easy to limit the creep of chorosive agents that can damage your set up.(I can not comment on the durability of the coating yet as it too soon, but they look the part!) Its packaged beautifuly and with thought! I didnt get any blue indicator though i did get twice as much persulphate as i was expecting and the dye could have been lost by a customs inspect for example. Would defo recommned! 👍👍

@feanorforges

Ай бұрын

Thank you very much for your review ! The methylene blue was in the box, yes, I have a double system to check each component, but your customs are very mad haha, and most of customs staff are paranoiac with drugs, so they prefer to remove some parts than take the risk... But glad they keep persulfate, because it look like to ... south American's stimulant !!!! Thank you for all !

@ceemch

Ай бұрын

@@feanorforges Thanks !!👍👍 I think I would like to upgrade my kit, so I have 2 cathodes is it an option in your shop to get another cathode and the space??

@feanorforges

Ай бұрын

@@ceemch 😊 do you mean to have 3 cathodes ? the cathodes are not very expensive, I usually not sell them alone because they are too cheap to be interesting. But I can one time if you really want, but only in 150x60 or 200x60mm, I don't have usable stock of little ones

@ceemch

Ай бұрын

@@feanorforges I saw in you video that you had 2 cathodes around one annode(dark one) I bought the lid set and it has just one of each type. I thought I if I got another cathode, spacer, washer and lid I could build one like yours that might be a little quicker/ more efficient ??

@feanorforges

Ай бұрын

@@ceemch sorry for my late answer : yes, you can ask more power by using the 2 sides of your anode. It is not "more efficient " but more powerfull yes so you can produce more product per unit of time : yes, but that is all. The current is sometime very high for 2 side and this can cause more heat and lower efficiency sometimes. But if you control everything, it is not a real probleme. A real problem is, for example sending 50Amps through M6mm connector in titanium : the temperature will rise over 100/110°C that is very bad !

My dear friend, thanks for your excellent work. I will write you some ideas and the rest is up to you: From the electric energy you give ,some is stored in KCLO3 as chemical energy and the rest is wasted as heat. If you make thermal isolation around the apparatus, you can reduce the current to a minimum required to keep the temperature you want. You can use also a thermostat to stop current if temperatures goes higher. You can save energy and extend the life of your electrodes. The same principle applies to cars battery chargers(not high currents). Thank you for your time. REGARDS from Cyprus.

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much Nicos, Your point of view is good and wrong at the same time ! It is not really a fuel but an oxidizer, so "energy storage" don't totally make sense as far as the air is already an oxidizer. In the same time the heat is favorable for the electrochemical process, if you watch the table (on the video of perchlorate for example) the yield is better at 45°C than 35°C and for perchlorate, for chlorates, it seems to be better near 80/100°C, I need to check my sources. For the total yield, for an amateur process, the total current/hour is not really important, for +/-10 or 20% in industry it is, in contrast ! For the life span, you would better keep it at constant temp like 60°C who is really easy, it is stable by itself at constant ambiant temperature. I have never see a car battery charger who stop the current in function of temperature... The module just regulate the current + the voltage at the high level, usually 14.4Volts like your car alternator... Greetings from France ;-)

Es excelente el vídeo soy de colombia y veo que el persulfato de potasio ayuda en la formación de Clorato mui fino

Hey, great video! Wondering if the short interelectrode spacing might be contributing to reduced yield?

OK, I have no resources, so I used graphite rods soaked in linseed oil. Vacuum chamber to suck out air outta the rods, roasted oiled rods in oven set at low to polymerize the oil. Sure as rain, the anodes got consumed in the process...lots of filtering to remove the carbon/linseed oil mush. Cathode rods were more or less unaffected. Was running the cell at 7.5 volts, 40 amps...don't recall how long I ran the cell, felt like forever. On crystalizing product after the run, was greeted by chlorate and perchlorate forms! The two salts have very distinct crystal shapes...recrystallizing several times to purify.

@thigamer092th7

7 ай бұрын

My friend, That much current gonna destroy everything idk it can damage even MMO anodes, Try using minor current, i already see people using 6 volts 5 or 4 amps

@thigamer092th7

7 ай бұрын

Obviosly the graphite will be consumed but probably you gonna reuse then some times before it dies.

@feanorforges

Ай бұрын

sorry for long answer : good job for your tries, but graphite is a mess ! I know it is almost impossible to get descent amount of perchlorate from graphite, you should better heat your chlorate at high temperature to get perchlorate and separate them with acetone or another solvant that can dissolve the perchlorate. Hope you will find a better solution ! Good luck 😉

Hello my friend, today I received your 2 threaded Anodes, thank you very much for fast shipping and those 4 connectors:) the quality is amazingly great:) I strongly recommended for everyone who need anode just ordered from your shops.. the coated layers is nicely thick and strong. Im waiting to see your next video about how to making Potassium perchlorate, until now all my 3 cell with different Anodes, only produce Chlorate.. Have a beautiful time ;)

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

You are welcome ! Yes, this thread batch is my best quality ever about PbO2 and the thread with shouldering enable you to just drill a hole in a lid or plastic plate, seal it with PTFE band, and bolt it ! The corrosion problems for the connectors will disappear like this ! It was my outcome after years of tests, improvement, lot of money lost in resins and glue : just thread, shouldering and PTFE ! Hope you will produce a lot of magic oxidizing powder ;-) salutations !

@kassimselamat942

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges can ship to malaysia sir

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@kassimselamat942 Just electrodes yes

@kassimselamat942

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges yes only electrode set with lid ..thank.you..for your respone sir

and the test is it burning? there may be a larger amount of potassium chloride

will using K2Cr2O7 in small quantities for electrolyte increase efficiency?

Interesting video!

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks you :)

@rickjwilliams

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges What would be the amount of Potassium Persulfate (K2S2O8)to be added. If my small scale saturated solution of KCL + distilled water. is 400ml. I estimated it to be .5mg based on you equation of 2gr/ ltr. THe first time I tried adding K2S2O8 to the solution my yield and quality of the yield improved a lot. 👍

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@rickjwilliams Great ! I'm happy to improve your process ! The persulfate reduce the degradation of hypochlorite to chloride at the cathode during the run. The concentration is often used between 2 to 5g/liter. Yes, your 0.5g are good. For myself, i am near 3g/L and add water at 2g/L (to compensate evaporation) but for perchlorate, I'm at 4g/Liter.

Hi, thanks for your tutorial! I' be bought a chlorate kit for self production, may ask you if I should neutralize the chlorate with a solution of NaOH like in the perclhorate video or not. Thanks.

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

Hi, for chlorate, it is different, no need to use NaOH because you don't need to use metabisulfite (in order to destroy chlorate ^^ ). Chlorate is really easier to produce than perchlorate.

@user-nw3bl2br6h

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges thanks for your quick reply.

the old electrolytic solution you add in the beginning, is this already NaCLO4? I.e. electrolysis of NaCl in water @ 270g/L? (1800 A/H/L).

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

The old electrolytic solution is an old solution of KCl used for previous KClO3 run.

@VanKrumm

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges so to make NaClO3 we just replace KCl with NaCl and start process @ 2:39. Its confusing because the video cuts between KCl electrolysis and NaCl electrolysis and it looks like the same jar

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@VanKrumm Yes, I describe 2 kinds of electrolysis in the same video, little bit confusing sorry. (For perchlorate, look at the graph at 5:20)

Thanks for your help full video. May i ask what is your power supply? I searched and didnt find any adjustable power supply that can provide 5 volt 30 amp! May you help me?what module or device you used?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

it comes from chinese factory, you can probably find it online. if not, you can put some little modules of regulated current cheap modules in parallel but it is not really efficient and reliable.

Bonjour, je vois qu’il a 2 câbles qui vont à l’anode , alors que pour les cathodes il n’y a qu’un câble, c’est dans quel but les 2 câbles ? Merci…

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

Bonjour, il y a 4 câbles : deux pour l'aller, 2 pour le retour, par exemple 15Ampères chacuns, ils sont équilibrés. (Pour 3 câbles celui de l'anode prendrait 30Ampères...)

Hi! How long is the shipping to Sweden? I've never ordered from eBay before but it says I'll get the kit from the 26th of November to the 10th of december.

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

It is a bit mad since the lockdown. The indication of Ebay is not acurate. The last time, one month ago, it took near 3 weeks to Sweden.

@footingball5566

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges it arrived now!

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

@@footingball5566 Great :-)

btw a good test for pH of a running cell is to take a small sample out and heating the solution to dryness before re wetting and testing with pH paper. this is a good cheap way to determine the pH of the cell without bleaching the paper.

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, but if you paper bleaching, you still have lot of hypochlorite, so the solution is far over pH 7 and you need to acidify it. So ne need to heat it, you change the composition of your electrolyte by destroying the hypochlorite (Na-ClO)

@CatboyChemicalSociety

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges actually HOCl and ClO at pH 6.8 exist at a ratio of 2:1 in solution and therefore hypochlorite will be present even at pH 7 but not as majority of the ions in solution. the reaction HOCl + NaClO = NaClO3 + NaCl occurs in the bulk fluid of the solution. if there was high pH then the paper would turn blue after the pH test but it remains yellow (pH of 7) but this test cannot test for pH lower than seven because the action of heating will destroy any acid in the solution but any NaOH if formed will be intact and turn the paper green or blue. My tests show no change in color after that hence the pH is atleast 7 or below. The graph showing the species in the electrolyte can be found here: www.chlorates.exrockets.com/reaction.html

@CatboyChemicalSociety

2 жыл бұрын

@@patryk-no2xk be more specific what part do you need help with. electrodes?? current voltage setup runtimes

@CatboyChemicalSociety

2 жыл бұрын

@@patryk-no2xk 24 hours is not enough you will need to run for 2 weeks or more since your carbon anode maybe small.

@CatboyChemicalSociety

2 жыл бұрын

@@patryk-no2xk send discord tag

for some reason no matter what i cant fully dissolve 500g KCL in 2L of distiled water... Does it has to be fully dissolved? Some of it stays at the bottom... Will it affect the purity of KCLO3?

@feanorforges

10 ай бұрын

I can confirm you that 500g of KCl can dissolve in 2liters. And if some KCl is undissolve, your KClO3 will be contaminated yes. BTW I advice you to produce NaClO3 then, add KCl to get crystals of KClO3 and NaCl new brine.

@makabra203

9 ай бұрын

i managed to dissolve all KCL but the water had to be boiling hot@@feanorforges

@feanorforges

9 ай бұрын

​@@makabra203 at cold, you can dissolve KCl near 290~300g for 1liter in cold water and near 350g/liter in hot water

@DaveSmith-cp5kj

8 ай бұрын

You should be using distilled water. If the water is not deionized, it is already partially absorbed with other minerals which prevents full saturation of the KCl

Hello, seem in your video you use double the surface area for the cathode....vs the area of anode...any particular reason?? i see others video and seem that should be less area for the cathode compared to mmo anode...Can you please give here your experiences and opiinion here??Why this difference in surface area cathode VS anode?? thanks in advance :)

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

hi ! Nope, I just use the whole surface of the Anode ;-) About the surface of the cathode Ratio VS anode, I haven't noticed many difference, except the fact that the cathode seems to corrode really faster. Just and impression, I haven't precise statement. Due to the fact that the oxydant are produced to the Anode, I don't think the area of the cathode is such important, but I'm sure there are a lot of scientific paper on this subject.

You do a great job with your ready to use kit! thank you:) i will test it next week I have one question, why is there a blue colour on my anode? have it any effects on the solution when it runs? greetings

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your support ! The blue colour is on the back side of your anode who is not used in your kit (only the frond side, face to cathode is used), and it is due to the chemical reagent who enable the coating to hold to the titanium substrate, and is neutral during your electrolysis, don't worry !!

@LL-cc2wr

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges i couldnt wait so i start to run it a few ours ago, how long does it take to see the first results? At the beginning much chlor gas was produced, one our later it normalized

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@LL-cc2wr Haha, you are too much impatient my friend ! Can you just have a look at the solubility table and in function of your temperature, calculate the amount of grams soluble in your brine, and with a production at 4g produced/hours (for 57% yield) you can count easily ;-)

How did you make your variable power supply? Can you share me your circuit diagram? I have my switching power supply here and want to make one just like your power supply

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

It is not me who made it, it is a chinese factory, but it is possible to do it, even from PC power supply, there are many diagram on internet, but I haven't reference on this subject.

I tried using graphite anode and titanium cathode. I added 100 grams of Potassium chloride into 400 ml of solution and mixed. I added just over 1 gram of potassium persulfate. I started the electrolysis at 4.5 volts and 2.7 amps. When I looked at it 16 hours later, the solution had turned black and the anode appeared to be damaged. I filtered the mixture, separated the pure solution into another container, added a little persulfate and started the electrolysis again. After 2 hours, I noticed that it started to turn black again and I stopped the process. I'm new to electrochemistry and I don't quite understand what's going on. Why didn't crystals form like in the video? I would be glad if you could help. A very nice video by the way.

@feanorforges

6 ай бұрын

Hello buddy ! Yes, it is very inefficient with graphite anode and I suggest to don't going over 25 or 30mA/Cm². Then don't use KCl, just electrolyze NaCl (table salt) yes, your anode in graphite will gradate along time BUT you will have a solution of chlorate. (use my calculator in the description) Then, you filter this solution contaminated with graphite (it is hard, I know, maybe use decanting), then, react your solution of NaClO3 with KCl according to my calculation in my pdf for example, then, instantaneously your cristals pf KClO3 will appeared. If your solution is clean, your crystals would be white and clean. (but it is VERY VERY hard with graphite) And when you will have more budget, you will have MMO (as mine) which are the royal way. Unfortunately I'm not the cheaper on the internet, cause France is the first country of the world by taxes : 46% return tot the state 🤧. Then you could do directly from KCl to KClO3 in one step but I'm not recommended it, I prefer stay in solution, en double-metathesis later. Keep hope and you will succeed !

@siddharthtiwari4540

6 ай бұрын

Ko​@@feanorforges

Hello, congratulations for your videos, clear, detailed and well made. I have a question Why not make a video like this for perchlorate? Perchlorate is much more stable and safe to use. Thanks for your attention. P.s. This will increase the sales of your electrodes ;)

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your support, and yes, perchlorate video is on the way. Even if more stable, it is really more harder to produce, and it need chlorate first... So this video is the first for perchlorate production (one step from chloride to perchlorate is possible but reduce the life-span of the PbO2 anode to fall near 30% and in many cases, the cell is lock at the end of chlorate). BTW, perchlorate produce less deep colours in fireworks than chlorate. And about safety, some mixtures are really more violent than chlorate, and bring it in demolition field. Thus, safety, yes and no !

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

​@@CatboyChemicalSociety You seem to be very good to read a paper, congratulations ! But as it seems to be so simple, feel free to give me the link of your process video sequence and the run at 3000A/m² during 8000Hours just to check ;-) I've seen some of your tests, well, in fact you have the audacity to try, nice; but just the life-span is the quality evidence of your deposition ... And I'm a bit worry about your try to pass from KChlorate to K-Perchlorate... Do you think it is almost impossible because of solubility ? (In fact, some grams per liter, maybe) One info : the difference bewteen Alpha and Betta is not produced via different solutions ...

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@CatboyChemicalSociety Thank you for the informations. For lead nitrate baths coating, the current density enable to select Alpha and Beta. But probably there are other solutions to achieve that ! you should test your concentration of perchlorate at the end with 96/98% H2SO4 drop on sugar+cristals 50/50, if it burn, you still have good chlorate traces.

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@CatboyChemicalSociety OK, yes, of course, but just H2SO4 works ! In fact, I use too Indigo Carmine, who can detect below 0.2ppm you will see in my video in some days, but my technic is not perfect

Hola algún día puedes sintetizar el persulfato de potasio

How much impact on the end product would using Ammonium Persulfate have? I am unable to aquire Potassium or sodium Persulfate where I am but I can get Ammonium Persulfate easily. I guess if I go for Ammonium Perchlorate it will be no issue but what about KClO3 or KClO4? Will it contaminate my KClO3/4? Is there an easy way to eliminate the Ammonium Persulfate from the Brine? By the way Feanor, Your videos are so clear and precise. Great job! :D

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you ! Yes, it is easiest to find and buy Ammonium Persulfate and so far, no chemist could confirm to me that this persulfate will not form ammonium chlorate which is very explosive by itself even with water... (nobody produce Ammonium Perchlorate for this reason... Spontaneous explosion has been reported) So if you intend to try (just as additive like 4g/L), be prudent, and you will be so kind to tell us if all is OK !! To precipitate the persulfate, I'm using Barium Chloride or Barium Carbonate (only in the perchlorate brine, for chlorate, I keep it in the final product). Thanks and take care of you !

@chemistryofquestionablequa6252

2 жыл бұрын

Convert it to the sodium or potassium salt first.

@peterstiven7355

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I have success in using ammonium persulfate without spontaneous explosion though I have not stopped at chlorate and continued to perchlorate followed by the destruction of chlorates with metabisulfite

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@peterstiven7355 Haha, good ! It is a nice information ! You don't need to destroy chlorate if you run until less than 0.1 or 0.2% chlorate by reached near 21% of the theorical yield. I'll put a video on this

Hello, may I ask why you won't ship the full kit from your shop to Israel? I've seen only the mmo anodes available : ( Anyway I hope you respond, thanks!

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

Hello ! Yes, I removed the possibility some months ago after problems because if I lost 1 parcel, I need 4 other to reach a balance of zero. The other reason is : the shipping price is quite high for extra european countries, and then, I'm not sure all countries allow persulfate at their customs, as I don't know, I prefer avoid this problems ! (and yes, just anodes pass via tracking regular post system, parcels, like kits, pass via EMS or local forwarder who is different !) But if you really want, yes, it is possible ;-)

@bousidans.w2556

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges i understand, thank you And yet one more thing is bothering me, what is the electrolyte solution? I've never seen it at any other process and I seem to have hard time finding one of those, where did you get it from? And again big thanks🙏

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@bousidans.w2556 It's water and salt, KCl or NaCl according to your chlorate

@bousidans.w2556

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges ho haha it looked yello-like so I thought it was something unique, I really appreciate your help and I will buy the anodes from your shop thank you

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@bousidans.w2556 You are welcome ! Yes, this question of recycled solution has already been asked by others, I should have been clearer! !

i know that chromate should not be used with PbO2 electrode. But if using NaF and Na2S2O8, which additive is better? why ? I used Na2S2O8, the solution after 2 days of electrolysis is yellow (probably because Cl2 is very soluble in the solution). I think that's not good because Cl2 doesn't convert to ClO3-.

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

I personnaly haven't use them because they are cardiogenic, but I've read that chromates are ok with Lead Dioxide coating and not fluorine compounds. About the reason, probably the chromates are chemically strongers than persulfates... The Cl2 gas is a natural thing, and just evaporate, even in industrial equipments. But you can see that difference between nothing and the adding of persulfate (or something else) gives a ratio from 10 to 1 about Cl2 production.

How about making Sr chlorate?

how long does the electrolosis of NaCl take at it maximum?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

the question haven't sence without input parameters ;-) BTW you have the answer at 5:22

Hey! When producing potassium chlorate through electrolysis, what do you dissolve the sodium chloride?

@feanorforges

4 ай бұрын

there are 2 ways : 1) dissolve NaCl and electrolysis it to chlorate and then add KCl to produce potassium chlorate. 2) dissolve KCl and electrolysis it to chlorate, it seems the easier way, but it is not. The crystals are annoying and stuck to the anode and then, reduce his lifespan. I prefer the 1)

Wouldn't the persulfate not interact with the methylene blue test?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

I've made tests, it doesn't change it ! hopefully !

Hey, does a pbo2 anode also work? And how do i remove the chloride and perchlorate salts?

@kebabchlorate

Жыл бұрын

Hello

@hanks8

Жыл бұрын

@@kebabchlorate o mai god

@ageofengineering159

Жыл бұрын

Pbo2 anode is used in perchlorate cell. It will also work in chlorate cell, but the pbo2 anode will last 5 times less than it is supposet to.

I start with ready kit, could you tell me what is the maximum temperature of 5V -10A power supply please? After 1 hour works its reach to the 33C, Is it necessary cool it down using extra fan or its not need cooling it ..Thanks a lot

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Hi ! You can found the temperature in the description, usually, it is near 60°C , for myself, it is not important to monitoring, but you shouldn't stay below 45, because there is too much hypochlorite production, bad yield. 60/70°C is better !

@tomspeed2000

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges Hi my friend, Thank you for answering, if it so I will rise the temperature to the 60 Celsius :)

@tomspeed2000

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges my friend please give me another advice, I have VOLTCRAFT HPS-11530 fully adjustable power supply for another MMO who works with 20 Amperage, I connect MMO to the power supply and the Amperage is about 2,5, when I closings Anode to the Kathode the Amperage begin rising to the 6 A, I have no idea why the Amperage dropping, I set the power to the 5V-20A, but i have maximum 6 A if two electrode stay close together.. however the voltage never change and stay perfectly on the 5V but Amperage .. the kit with small power supply works perfectly fine and it show always 10A .. if you have knowledge about this problem please let me know it, thanks a lot

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@tomspeed2000 Yes, it is classic, probably your drop voltage in connection (contact surface) + cable. As you limited the voltage to 5V and as I guess, your conection got for example 2V of drop, it remain 3V for your electrodes, so the current will be lower than your 20A max. Watch at your voltage, you probably have 5V (limit reached) and 2,5 or 6A according to your distance. You have 2 solutions : 1 : the recommended : check your connection, the wire section (at least 1,5 to 2,5mm² for 20A), sand down the contact surfaces and bolt them. 2 : Rise the voltage limit to 6V (for example) BUT it means that there is a problem who was not solved and something will overheat : your wire or connection, and could melt in less than 1 hour !!!

@tomspeed2000

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges thank you very much for your help, i will replace the wire to see the results.

Are you aware of RuO4 formation after 78% conversion?

What if you start with hydrochloric acid will this method produce chloric acid?

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

No, you can't, you will just produce chlorine gas and H2 gas

why is persulfate added into this cell wouldnt that sorta fuck up the MMO or is it inconsequential and also a side note is pH control is very possible and easy with the addition of CaCl2 which also prevents reduction of chlorates via formation of Ca(OH)2 films on the cathodes which acts as a diaphragm. The temperature however must be kept above 60 or the lime will be soluble in the solution leading to increase in pH so hence the electrolyte is always pre heated to 60 Celsius before running.

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Do you really thinking persulfate destroy the MMO ? Maybe you should study the process, you have tons of paper on internet. Some of my friend used CaCl2, he tested persulfate, and never use CaCl2 again because of better yield... (and anode lifespan) . About temperature : haha, what you said is in the video ;) you should watch it !

@CatboyChemicalSociety

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges how long did his anodes last with CaCl2 addition since ive used these anodes for very long time over the course of years and never managed to kill one yet. Also persulfate is kinda hard for me to obtain and I have used CaCl2 with 78% CE and my method of proving that was the following. 1.Run for 4 days saturated NaCl solution with CaCl2 addition. 2.Stop run and put electrolyte in freezer. 3.Resaturate electrolyte then preheat the solution using a pot till 70 Celsius. 4.Run for one day at 32 amps and freeze. 5. Measured yield after 1 day was 378 grams of chlorate. notes: the current was measured using inline shunt and multimeter. current stayed mostly constant but needed slight adjustment only during startup of the cell. Temperature was steadily rising and the lid had to be opened sometimes.

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

​@@CatboyChemicalSociety Thank you for you method, but I don't understand : how many Ampere by hours did you use to reach 378grams ? 4 days = 96 hours ? or just 24 hours ? About shunt you should buy a constant current step down module, it cost near 9$ for 20Amps max

@CatboyChemicalSociety

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges 378 grams in 24 hours this was found out by running 4 days and putting in freezer,collection then resaturation then heating and running for 1 day and after that 1 day its cooled again then the crystals are collected dried then weighed and it came out to be 378 grams.

@nicoschadjidemetriou4373

2 жыл бұрын

@@CatboyChemicalSociety Thank you very much for your advice and informations. When I have time I can try for few grms. I cannot explain the theory that your method is based. It looks to me like magic, but"the more you try the more you learn" I will write something to Feanor and you can read it. My best wishes to you and your family from CYPRUS.

Great video and tutorial! How come there are 2 cathodes here?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you ! It is because the anode has 2 sides ;-)

What is the best Electrolyte to use in the cell made of?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

NaCl at saturation level

@RandomchannelfromSW

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I’ve built a cell and I’ve bought KCI and NaCl and dichromate. The cell holds about 1ltr . What ratios would you use? Any advice by great ?

Is there any way to distinguish between the mmo and pbo2 anodes? I bought one of your sets a few years back but I forgot if I bought the mmo or pbo2 version lol..

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it is easy : the MMO is a very very thin layer of some micrometer. The PbO2 coating is very thick, and dark. Until 6month ago, my MMO anode were only on plate, now the big ones are on mesh. (so if you have a dark plate anode, it is MMO)

@FOATE

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges Aah thx! It's mmo then. It's a plate and it's a thin greyish coating. It's a shame I didnt get the ones you can screw onto a lid, those look great! But I believe you didn't sell those yet back then.

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@FOATE Haha, yes, in the past I sold only rectangular square electrodes. Then, to avoid problems, I added a threaded connector to remove all problem of corrosion. A bit more expensive, but I try to share my experience : I don't want user have tons of problems with my material (like me in the past !)

@FOATE

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges ​ Ah well it's no problem, I have used SMP adhesive (high tack) before to secure mesh into slots that had no connection welded onto them. I put some teflon tape around the mesh first to jam it into the slot and then seal with adhesive on both sides. The adhesive holds for quite a while before it goes yellow and has to be replaced, and it's easy to remove from the plexiglass at that point. I will probably just use that method for your plates aswell. I'ts not ideal but the best I've found so far. Epoxy just crumbles after a while.. But I havent used your electrodes yet because tbh the mmo electrode is just so damn nice! And I don't want to ruin it (pdf has some good tips to prevent that). Usually when you buy mmo electrodes they are USED, they're just a piece of a bigger mesh that they cut up, while yours is clearly new! The coating is very very uniform and it's electroplated in it's final dimensions so there are no bare edges. Definately 10/10 product. I'm considering buying the clo4 kit once I know all the details about clo3. I really really like the sets you sell, brilliant. And I have to ask, do you do the electroplating yourself? It's really cool because I can tell you probably have years and years of research into this. Thx for providing a quality product and sharing your knowledge!

@FOATE

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I have one more question. As it's winter, I found some road salt in the shed and I'm wondering if it could be used for electrolysis. It's nice white NaCl, but the only thing is it has sodium and potassium ferrocyanide

Bonjour, vous avez obtenu 800 gm de chlorate de potassium avec juste 500 g de chlorure de potassium et 2 litres ?

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Bonjour, oui, la vidéo est la prise d"une procédure normale, toutes les valeurs sont réelles, j'ai obtenu 822g sec, mais en recyclant la saumure à chaque fois, sinon, on en récolte moins !

Is it good to add some dichromate? Or is it not worth it, because the toxicity

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is a good catalyst but as you said, greatly toxic...

@Pyrokartoffel

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges are there at the end dichromate residus on the chlorate?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

@@Pyrokartoffel Yes, it needs to be precipitate with another compound, I don't remember, but something like barium compound who form barium chromate who is unsoluble.

What can I use as my first electrolyte solution. This is my first time

@colinbainbridge5275

2 жыл бұрын

Either saturated solutions of sodium or potassium chloride: depends on the final product you desire. I prefer sodium chloride (pickling salt) and to keep the pH around 6 using HCl ( do this in a well ventilated area as toxic chlorine gas is produced). If the temperature is kept between 50 and 60 ° C, sodium perchlorate can be obtained, it just takes longer. Test for perchlorates using methylene blue (get it from a aquarium/pet fish store). It turns purple when perchlorate is present. Perchlorates are safer and sodium chlorate/perchlorate can easily be converted to the potassium counterpart. Also sodium perchlorate can easily be used to make ammonium perchlorate. Stay safe and have fun.

I use an Ir-ta electrode, electrolyze potassium chloride, and use potassium persulfate, and the current efficiency is less than 20%, which is why

@feanorforges

6 ай бұрын

what is your current density ? what is your concentration of persulfate ? what is your temperature ? (even if it don't change many things, even at cold, at 35°C some people reach 50%~60%)

@dragonwarsun

6 ай бұрын

@@feanorforges 100cm2 i use 25a,70-80℃，Potassium persulfate 5g/l,I use one positive electrode and two cathodes that are the same size

does the chlorate become perchlorate if you let it run for a longer period of time?

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

as you can see, the purple indicate traces of perchlorate. Yes, it is possible but the coating destruction of the anode is faster, and it is probably not possible to reach 99% of perchlorate easily like Lead dioxide coating

@Pyrokartoffel

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges did you know how many amperes can i use for small Graphite electrodes? 10x100mm?

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@Pyrokartoffel with graphite, it is something like 30mA/Cm² max (maybe a bit more, I haven't many experience on this) so you should use 300mA = 0.3Amps for one side. If you use a spiral stainless steel around your graphite for example, and if it is a rod bar, you have 31.4Cm² so you can rise to 1Amp. (it is not very fast !!)

@Pyrokartoffel

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges that is slower than i thought it would be, but thanks

500g=822 g . We deserve a Nobel prize !

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

Oxygen's weigh ;-)

how do i seal the chlorate cell so i can pass the chlorine through a scrubber?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

The only durable seal is PTFE ruber (plumbing for example), if not, silicone hold a while but degrade along the time.

@VerbenaIDK

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges i am out of teflon tape, and, how would i seal the electrodes and hose into the lid? is there like a mostly pfte glue or something? edit: i have epoxy putty, do you think that would last atleast enough time that i can buy some high density teflon tape and some silicon sealant?

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

@@VerbenaIDK Hi, first, a total seal is VERY complicated because almost all material disintegrate over time. I have NERVER see someone build a 100% seal appartus (holding many month) BUT it is possible. I don't think this kind of PTFE glue exist but if a solvent for PTFE exist then it is possible ! With epoxy, you can build a system who hold until 2 months in good conditions. You should just buy 3 PTFE tape rolls for 2$ in your DIY shop and try, it is possible to seal the tube and seal the lid too, the silicon burn in some weeks. Hope you won't loose too much time and money on it !

@VerbenaIDK

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges oh it's fine pobably some 2 rolls of ptfe will work fine now my biggest problem is just cathode really the chlorate cell desintegrated my cathode, i think ill need to cut off some of my galvanized steel sheet and burn off/corrode away the zinc, tho it inst too bad, i am just running it to remove the coooer from the graphite anodes, and the "ratio" of tge surface area of the anode to cathode is like 1:3 if i can find a titanium sheet that doenst cost a liver i will try that, and pobay ill change anode too

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

@@VerbenaIDK Usually, non-pure titanium is degraded very fast like Grade 5. The grade 1 is the best (almost pure Ti). Maybe your ratio is too low, the best is probably near 1:1.5 but I always use 1:1 and it is ok 65% yield. I don't know how it is possible to use graphite, I tryed one time, it was horrible, lot of black powder and very low chlorate production...

Hello! My power-supply can take only 10.20 amp's and 32 volts, how long am I supposed to wait until taking it off with an yield of 45%? (6.8 PH and about 2.5liter+450g of potassium chloride) I've bought your anode+cathode, it is a great product!

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

Hello ! Thanks ! You should limit the voltage near 4.5V and watch the video, there are all the answers to your questions ! (+ in my PDF, on ebay's page, there is the quantities of current per gram)

@bousidans.w2556

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges thanks for answering my question, the tutorial video in the PDF file doesn't seem to work for me... my only question is, what should be the amperes if I'll put it on 4.5V for 2 days? (450g and 2.5 liter.) Thanks again!

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@bousidans.w2556 Ok, maybe you should try to open with another software. Amperes will be determinate by many parameter, nobody can know before. That is why I use current regulator that adapt the voltage to do this. But you can just send 4.5Volts and wait, just like this, you can't calculate the end, (for example 50% of the theorical.) But for KCl it is not important, you can just harvest the KClO3 cristals.

@soroka6983

Жыл бұрын

@@bousidans.w2556 I took a 12Volt lead battery charger and 20Amp output. Made two chlorate cell's (3 Liters each - near one gallon each) connected them in series one after the other, so by Ohms law each cell gets around 6 Volt, because of the total cells resistance it can be little lower than the 6 Volt. As production of chlorate increases in the cell, electrical resistance of the cell is increases too, to overcome electrical resistance you need a more Voltage so 6Volt per cell is reasonable. If you need good yield you need to add one to ten Cubic Centimeter of a 37% hydrochloric acid once a week, so your total PH is around 6.5, if PH go alkaloidal you will split water to 2H2 and O2. Brine temperature should be around 40 Celsius or 105 Fahrenheit. there is a lot of things to look after in the cell. The main thing is let it sit for a week at the time, the larger the volume of the solution the easier to control the cell. One more thing you can control the voltage of the cell - is the distance between cathode and anode. The closer together the lower the resistance in the cell the higher voltage in the cell. good lack in your Indeever

@bousidans.w2556

Жыл бұрын

@soroka6983 Thank you! I've gained a much better understanding of your explanation🙏

Hello I have black coating on cathode after runing chlorate cell for 12 days at 30 ampere. Is my MMO anode destroyed ?

@feanorforges

9 ай бұрын

Hello, without informations, impossible to say. but definitely, the appearance of your cathode surface is not an indicator of anode's health. And with MMO the coating never go on the cathode, I don't know where your black deposition come from !

@patrikorsuliak8137

9 ай бұрын

@@feanorforges Could it be from cyanoacrylate glue or is it passivation of cathode from high voltage because in last two days i used 5v to power it

@patrikorsuliak8137

9 ай бұрын

5 volt directly on electrodes

@patrikorsuliak8137

9 ай бұрын

Before i did not see any black coating

@patrikorsuliak8137

9 ай бұрын

I think is ruthenium oxide from anode

cool

And the electrolyte solution is ?

@chemistryofquestionablequa6252

Жыл бұрын

Sodium or potassium chloride. You can really use any chloride salt except for ammonium

I have watched a lot of videos about the manufacture of chlorates and I also watched a lot of your videos, but because of my difficulty in understanding the English language, I did not understand much and I would like you to help me with your experience in preparing this chemical substance very much Please don't let me down

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

Hi, chlorates are not very complicated, you just need a graphite bar if you want to make some test, if not, you can just heat bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and then separate chlorate from chloride. Good luck ;-)

@AhmedSabry-cz4kf

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I am aware of this, but I would like to know the types of anode and cathode used in the production of chlorate, which are cheap in price and whose results are satisfactory in terms of the quantity produced, the percentage of corrosion, the percentage of sodium chloride added to water in a cam to cam ratio, and the ampere ratio used in terms of anode type and cathode used And thank you for your interest in responding

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

@@AhmedSabry-cz4kf Hello, all your questions are answered in this video ! I'm sure you can translate the informations, you can ask to a friend to help you if necessary ! I wish you good luck and success ;-)

@AhmedSabry-cz4kf

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I would like to finally get potassium perchlorate and I found it important to produce sodium chlorate and then convert it to sodium perchlorate and then convert it to potassium perchlorate Do you have another opinion? And does the production of perchlorite need an anode other than the one used in the production of chlorite?

@AhmedSabry-cz4kf

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I found a titanium anode with a platinum layer from Umicore. Is it possible to use this anode?

3:43 but it should not generate Cl gas if you are preparing Chlorate from Chloride salt At higher temperature than Room T . !!!!

@feanorforges

2 жыл бұрын

But it does !

@omsingharjit

2 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges ok , may be little bit

If I want to make 100 kg, how big anode and cathode do I need?

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

Depend of the production time : with this one (200x60mm) you can reach 100Kg in one year at 30Amps If you want 100Kg per second, you need 450 000 square meter of electrodes ;-)

@AnyerPablo

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges is there any best solution to make 100kg kclo3?🙏

@feanorforges

Жыл бұрын

@@AnyerPablo 1 - The best way is Electrolysis, 2 - The required time is only defined by yourself, and consequently, the electrodes surfaces.

@bosbil8597

Жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I LOVE THIS ANSWER👍

Hi brother! Why do I use persulfate 4g/1 liter? Its starting pH is 7.5. Do I need to use hcl?

@feanorforges

Ай бұрын

Hi ! Because persulfate is more efficient to stabilize the pH than HCl and then, it totally replace it with 4g/liter.

@user-de6uw6wz9x

Ай бұрын

Do I need to heat the solution before electrolysis? A cold start will release a lot of poison gas, thank you😮​@@feanorforges

@feanorforges

Ай бұрын

@@user-de6uw6wz9x it is better to heat before, yes, for many reasons. You can look at the pdf there are lot of infos like this. (the PDF on my website)

@user-de6uw6wz9x

Ай бұрын

@@feanorforges thks😉

@user-de6uw6wz9x

Ай бұрын

@@feanorforges 😃Hi bro, I would like to ask a key question again. Should we use a dual cathode or a single cathode during the chlorate stage?

I've read gold does not work as an anode. I'm surprised. Why not?

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

you can ask this question for all elements ! It is linked to electrical potential of oxidation. You can use Platinum, cheaper than gold at current price.

@ThePeterDislikeShow

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges I just have a hard time imagining gold dissolving. Could you use salt water for gold plating, then? That doesn't sound right either because that usually requires highly toxic solutions.

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThePeterDislikeShow I can confirm that gold can dissolve, I've do that for some grams. Theorically, yes, in salt water you can, with enought voltage, like 5 or 6VDC for example.

@ThePeterDislikeShow

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanorforges would you do a video on gold plating with salt water? It would be nice to see.

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThePeterDislikeShow it is probably not possible, I was talking about dissolving, plating is really much difficult ! You need at least AuCl3 as salt.

Hey nice vid can you send me a link from your power supply thanks

@feanorforges

3 жыл бұрын

Hi, I buy it in bulk to the factory, but you can probably found it on Aliexpress or other chinese website ;-)

@slimani373

4 ай бұрын

​@@feanorforges Can I use the phone's power bank?

Where do you buy your potassium chloride?

@istvanff

2 жыл бұрын

Uh, in a shop I guess

@footingball5566

2 жыл бұрын

@@istvanff a potassium chloride shop lol

Why do you have 3 electrodes why wont 2 do the trick

@alexandregabrielcaldeiraco1987

Жыл бұрын

I like your banner

@chemistryofquestionablequa6252

11 ай бұрын

2 cathode in this arrangement maximizes the efficiency by using both sides of the anode. 2 works, 3 is better.

Next time put a small plastic tube, and take away the cloride corrosive and toxic gases into a water siphon, and wash that gases ( and you protect the enviroment and your health).