For more debates and bonus content sign up www.premier.org.uk/unbelievablenewsletter

I find Michael Shermer to be an extremely pleasant and good guy. He is willing to talk to people on both sides of the aisles and keeps a pretty darn good balance between scepticism and open-mindedness. Not many guys are able to do it as good as he does it. Kudos Michael!

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

And then I woke up and found myself on youtube threads.

@winstonsmiththx1138

4 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 then go back to sleep because you didn't add anything with your comment

@sarahclark5447

4 жыл бұрын

@@winstonsmiththx1138 Hmm, it seems I added you, however, if you see yourself as nothing, I can go with that.

@spridle

2 жыл бұрын

Watch his debate with Graham Hancock on Rogan and you'll realize how scummy of a person he is.

@sarahclark5447

2 жыл бұрын

@Mel Dummar My purpose in the world is to bring a smile, My success rate is low amongst youtube atheists. However, even my lack of success brings a smile to some, therefore, I guess the purpose of a youtube atheist is to say dumb things which I may use to bring smiles.

“Once beliefs are formed, the brain begins to look for and find confirmatory evidence in support of those beliefs, which adds an emotional boost of further in the beliefs and thereby accelerates the process of reinforcing them, and round and round the process goes in a positive feedback loop of belief...M. Shermer - Why People Believe

@ray_x6959

Жыл бұрын

the subconscious mind to be exact

A plane crash . One person walks away unhurt a miracle But not for the rest ????

Luuke doesn't argue. He gives a sermon. Devoid of evidence and hard to listen to.

I'm in Sequim Wa. and didn't even know this event took place until Michael mentioned it today on his KZread Skeptic channel.

Luuk's argument rests almost entirely on the idea that "these people REALLY believed in this." But this has no bearing at all on whether or not the beliefs are based on something that is true. It's an immediate and complete fail as a logical argument.

@viperstriker4728

2 жыл бұрын

On the other hand Shermer based his argument on how likely an event is to happen. But I think he would agree that miracles by definition are not possible naturally, so talking about the probability is illogical as be definition as it should be 0. (Human limbs can't grow back so he gave that as example, but never finish that thought and concluded that it was because it has a 0 probability of happening that he would except it.) Though I wouldn't say the Bible meets the standard to be taken as historical facts. I will say that most history is based on what people believed happened then hopefully we get to double check with archeology. So saying that what they believed is not relevant would make history impossible to do. Though I would agree that more then one type of evidence is needed.

Why are Christians incapable of realizing they use circular reasoning every time they refer to the Bible as evidence for Jesus's miracles?

Were Jesus' miracles believable? His family didn't think so: 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses." (Mk. 3:21 NAU) 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him (Jn. 7:5 NAU) If even his own family didn't find his miracles very credible, I could hardly be unreasonable to infer that Jesus was nothing more than a first-century Benny Hinn. Apparently, his ability to convince thousands of people that he did a miracle, implies audience gullibility before it implies the miracles were genuinely supernatural.

@isidoreaerys8745

Жыл бұрын

Thankyou

Luuk and Michael did clearly presented their arguments. The moderator, Justin, was fair and directed the conversation in the right direction. Great job everyone!

@Fireoncityy

3 жыл бұрын

Luuk didn't present anything other than, the bible says it happened so it happened. That isn't any argument.

Great debate. Would have loved to see Richard Carrier or Bob Price do this, as they have more biblical knowledge. Either way Justin Brierley is the best. He seems so fair to both sides. Love that dude.

@401Northwestern

4 жыл бұрын

Well price was destroyed by bart ehrman and carrier let his emotions get the better of.him in his debate with ehrman on ehrman's bloy.

I am fascinated by how many assertions Luuk makes without any reference to evidence.

@MarcusW8

5 жыл бұрын

avcostello1 as if Christianity is the first and last suicide-cult...

@MarcusW8

5 жыл бұрын

avcostello1 suicide by cop is still suicide.

@crimsonalpha4578

5 жыл бұрын

@@MarcusW8 no such thing as suicide by cop. We actually have a name for that kind of stuff and its called police brutality

@TheRobdarling

5 жыл бұрын

@@crimsonalpha4578 how wrong you are...

@gusb232

5 жыл бұрын

@avcostello1 "persistent claim for the reason for their deaths was their belief in Jesus being the Son of God who rose from the dead" You are saying that since these people may have believed Jesus 'Appeared' to them as an apparition or materially then It must be true It was an objective fact People have risen from being dead . Even If there were killed for claiming this was True How does that establish it was true. Its like saying David Koresh was God because many dozens of his followers choose to stay with him and be burned alive , While according to the Gospel accounts The disciples who were in a position to know fled Jerusalem when Jesus was captured .

As Dan Barker has stated, “Christians should get their act together first before they try to convince atheists.”

@webslinger527

2 жыл бұрын

That quote is nonsense. Even if the roles were switched it would still be complete nonsense.

@dmc3079

2 жыл бұрын

@@webslinger527 Explain why its nonsense.

@webslinger527

2 жыл бұрын

@@dmc3079 Because Dan Barker is a laughingstock. He believes in Jesus methisism which has been debunked by scholars and goes against the near unanimous scholarly opinion of the majority of scholars. Also Christians should get their act together first what does that even mean. It’s just nonsense like everything else he says.

@dmc3079

2 жыл бұрын

@@webslinger527 "Also Christians should get their act together first what does that even mean" - Good question for Dan. But my take on it is that its difficult to convince atheists about christiaity being true when there is so many different sects of christianity with different views about the same story. How does one determine which version is the right one?

@webslinger527

2 жыл бұрын

@@dmc3079 It’s not hard to determine which sect of Christianity is true if you just do your research. Catholicism isn’t the way because you pray to Saints which goes against multiple things that Jesus stated. Jehovah witnesses take the Bible literally which is not how the Bible was made it was made with a lot of theological metaphorical meaning. Here’s an example Moses left Egypt at 40 he was with the Midianites for 40 years and he was in the desert for 40 years these are theological numbers. Unless you believe that I person who is almost 120 climb a mountain to get Stone Commandments. Mormons Have been disproven countless times and their claims have been debunked by scientists when they say that Israelites were Native Americans and they’re so easy to debunk that even a South Park episode was able to do so. There’s more to it but that’s just a basic way of looking at it.

SHERMER IS RIGHT ! SCIENCE, LOGIC, REASON AND CRITICAL THINKING CHALLENGING THE CLAIMS, BELIEFS AND SUPERSTITIONS THAT SO MANY OF WE HUMANS ACCEPT WITHOUT QUESTION !

Miracles are a true and real phenomenon! Miracles are when religious people take a coincidence as a hit while ignoring the overwhelming misses. Backing up their "miracle" claims with arguments from ignorance fallacies. "I don't know how something could have occurred, therefore, I invoke my particular brand of an imaginary friend as an answer." This is miracles at work...

@Mr.Goodkat

5 жыл бұрын

What you're saying is something a lot of people certainly do with prayer like someone who prays for a job going into an interview and then gives god credit when they get the job ignoring all the previous interviews that were failures but they never declare it a miracle (maybe only as a figure of speech same way an atheist might) only you have done that, it's confirmation bias. The word Miracle is more often attributed by religious people to apparitions, people surviving life threatening injuries, premonitions that come true saving lives and things of that nature.

@agnosticatheist7529

5 жыл бұрын

@Captain 7 Sure, it is, if it weren't you have tried to rebut what I stated. Instead simply resorted to an ad hominem rather than addressing what was stated.

@Mr.Goodkat

5 жыл бұрын

@@agnosticatheist7529 Your comment was flawed though.

@davidmahfuz5721

4 жыл бұрын

@Cleo Fierro . I decree it is the religious who are fucking imbeciles !

@HarryNicNicholas

4 жыл бұрын

we are a race that is here purely because of the number of coincidences is astronomical, and i never tire of believers saying "you hear this all the time, god saved this life) if it happens all the time, not so much miraculous.

Starts at 2:15

It is hard to see how those early followers could have been fooled. Good point Luuk about people dying for something they were told vs something they experienced (102:40).

@roarblast7332

4 жыл бұрын

Kinda naive though isn’t it

@croakingfrog3173

4 жыл бұрын

@@roarblast7332 What exactly?

@sendtoanthony

4 жыл бұрын

I just don't think we can know what they experienced.

@Draezeth

4 жыл бұрын

@@sendtoanthony We can read what they wrote.

@Doppe1ganger

4 жыл бұрын

Are you serious?

i think the channel name covers it quite well..... unbelievable.

What laws of nature exactly do the miracles of Jesus break? Dr. Dallas Willard asked this question many times and never got a straight answer.

It’s disingenuous to assume those who don’t accept the miracle claims believe the NT authors or early Christians were intentionally lying or misleading. Sophomoric at best. Gospel authors never claim to be eyewitnesses, and scholarly consensus is the books were anonymously written, with the names we know the as attached at a later date. This is not a debate, no evidence is being presented, simply an appeal to emotion.

There is only one source for Jesus. The gospel writers copied each other with embellishment. Paul wrote about his hallucinations.

It amazes me how and why people are impressed by unverifiable anecdotes, claims, myths and legends from a 2000 year old compendium of bronze age middle eastern fairy tales.

@soslothful

Жыл бұрын

Do you have a refutation for these beliefs?

It's Justin from that radio show I used to listen to on a saturday afternoon. Whatever happened to that?

Great debate 👍

What a naive reading of the ancient sources by Luuk V. This is what happens when faith informs your "scholarship". Truly baffling that this is tolerated at the PhD level.

@chaveraoh

4 жыл бұрын

I am a Christian, with a PhD, and unfortunately, I must agree with you :). Shermer gave a well staged :) logical rhetorically powerful speech. Luuk should have done far better. The visual aids with Pinokio dragged his performance even lower. I am afraid he does not understand the issue, underestimates his opponent and is not skeptical enough to stand up to the task. I am disappointed.

@youtubemoderationtaskforce5583

4 жыл бұрын

I’ll sum up this Luuk dude: The Bible described that this one thing happened, and some other things too...RiGhT? I’m not a liar and I’m not a fool. 46:00 “They wouldn’t use capital punishment for minor magic.” “They knew sorcery implied supernatural.” No they hung him for sorcery and ENTICING Israel. No, they called it sorcery because that word effectively evoked fear in the people to avoid and ignore Jesus because he was going against the status quo of traditional Jewish narratives and thus putting the power structure at risk. He was a charismatic cult leader who was trying to ENTICE people into his way of thinking. This guy is intellectually dishonest. He’s making assumptions about what the leaders believed in order to push his agenda.

Blood Eagle is a worse than crucifixion... imagine if they did that. Would people be wearing eagles instead of crosses? 🤔

Good arguments

MS seems to have a limited reading of the NT if he says that only one person is brought back to life. Lazarus was raised after 3 days in a tomb presaging Jesus, who also revived Jairus daughter from seeming death - though Jesus says she was merely sleeping. The Acts of the Apostles include examples of the the disciples raising the dead.

You cannot work out the odds of a miracle happening. There is zero chance. That's what makes it a miracle.

@HarryNicNicholas

4 жыл бұрын

you can work out the odds that miracles happen all the time though, which is what you would know if you paid attention to what was said.

@viperstriker4728

2 жыл бұрын

@@HarryNicNicholas If you can work out the odds then it likely isn't a miracle but rather just credited as a miracle. I think that is more what Shermer's argument proves. But his example of a human limb growing back would convince him, backs up Vince's statement above. Maybe double check before you accuse others of not paying attention....

@skyteus

2 жыл бұрын

@@viperstriker4728 He was talking about what people sometimes take as miracles. Miracles that defy natural laws just dont exist which is something of a miracle in itself.

@viperstriker4728

2 жыл бұрын

@@skyteus Been a while since I watched this but pretty sure at least half of Jesus's miraculous would have had to broke the natural laws to be true. That's the debate, and to change it to your statement would be starting on the atheist side.

Why do apologists love to use things out of context so much? He brings up the Sanhedrin text without mentioning the fact that it's unclear first of all who the 'Yesu' in the passage is as it was a very common name and if you want to claim it's your specific Jesus, then you have to deal with the fact that it states the trial went on for 40 days and that Yesu was stoned before being hung and it doesn't mention crucifixion. But hey if misinforming brings people to God then I guess it's permissible.

@ivanhuertas5307

3 жыл бұрын

why do you call him Yesu? is it hard to you call him Jesus instead? since is hard to you to call Him ישוע

@zacharyberridge7239

2 жыл бұрын

@@ivanhuertas5307 dingbat, he's literally quoting the passage brought up in the debate. That's why he's using that name.

@isidoreaerys8745

Жыл бұрын

Lying for Jesus. lol. All you gotta do is get a little educated and you see that christian apologists lie constantly.

What apologist Vandeweghe, like Turek, Geisler, Craig and others, never gets around to, is whether after the passing of 2,000 years, it is today's Christian, not the skeptic, who has the burden of proof to show that anything in the NT "applies to us today".

As the man said [ In religion FAITH is a virtue In science FAITH is a vice ] From a primate

Oh dear. Shermer's basis is scientific method. Luuk likes comfy stories. Put this boy to bed.

@badboy8526

4 жыл бұрын

I will come there and slap you in your mouth

Ned Flanders with contact lenses

1:12:50 Bob walks out onto the stage

Let me see if I understand this, Jesus miracles are improbable or impossible? The latter? Why, exactly?

Ummm one little problem with Vandeweghe saying what Peter saw Jesus do... he never MET Jesus. No one who wrote about Jesus met the guy, it's all hearsay!

I don't believe anyone doubts that the apostles really believed in whatever they believed. That however, doesn't make whatever they believed true though. I don't understand why christians still bring that up.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

Why do atheist make the ridiculous rule we cannot use the bible as historical accounts? History is the recording of past events but the wimpy atheist know if they admit the bible in as accounts of what people saw (Peter: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty") they have to admit they are morons and missed the boat on God and to be blunt are quite stupid.

@tiagoscherer1158

5 жыл бұрын

@@bretzajac7986 hahahahahhahahahhahahha You have got to be kidding mate !

@tiagoscherer1158

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician Says the imbecile that believes in fairy tales :):):)

I've been trying to find the foundation of Christianity? Anyone know where it's at?

@klintonhaw

5 жыл бұрын

The resurrection of Jesus

@MrKit9

5 жыл бұрын

Check your cats litter box.

I have seen miracles that equal those found in scripture. But people would tell me that I am just mistaken, delusional, or that they can be explained by natural process. So the debate is moot.

@whatwecalllife7034

5 жыл бұрын

Is it not possible that your perceptions can be mistaken? Why do you think it is more likely that some magical thing(s) happened than you simply had an error in judgement or perception?

@bungalobill7941

5 жыл бұрын

@@whatwecalllife7034 Real. factual. and with no naturalistic explination.

@whatwecalllife7034

5 жыл бұрын

@@bungalobill7941 Your answer doesnt address the 2 questions I asked

@MarcusW8

5 жыл бұрын

Bungalo Bill and you ruled out all naturalistic explanations how exactly?

@Mr.Goodkat

5 жыл бұрын

Can I please know what they are? I won't mock, I'm just fascinated by this stuff.

If the evidence for miracles was convincing, these debates would not be happening.

@Soaptoaster

5 жыл бұрын

That's absurd reasoning.

@dennisheffy3220

5 жыл бұрын

@@Soaptoaster . If any "miracle" can be shown to be true there would be no argument.

@RichLuciano1

5 жыл бұрын

@@dennisheffy3220 What would have to be true for you to say there would be no argument?

@dennisheffy3220

5 жыл бұрын

@@RichLuciano1 . For something to be true, it must be accurate, verifiable, correct and be in accordance with reality.

@RichLuciano1

5 жыл бұрын

@@dennisheffy3220 it looks like you are giving words synonymous with the word true. The question being asked of you is: What has to be true in order for you to say miracles are inarguable?

Debate content well-researched and well prepared. Delivery believable. Some doubt that miracles actually happen...oh...until they need one or their child or spouse just experienced one.

@kamiltrzebiatowski3745

4 жыл бұрын

That my child would experience one doesn't make it true. And if a radical, highly emotional event made me experience one doesn't make it true either. It's like the claim that religion brings people solace as argument for religion. Finding solace in untruth is no solace to me. There are enough times we lie to ourselves already to make ourselves feel better to add another one.

@MrMattSax

6 ай бұрын

Many of those claimed miracles are actually natural events that are rare. Rarity does not equate to a contradiction of physics or biology.

Very nice.

As much as I enjoy Shermer, this debate would have been more productive with Dr. Richard Carrier.

@kevindavis5966

3 жыл бұрын

And more nuclear. Luuk would have been a glowing crater.

One only has to look at the devotees of POTUS 45 to see that people do not always perceive things as they really occur.

@KevinB-pd3me

7 ай бұрын

And you can see the same or worse in his knee-jerk opponents, including those in the bureaucracy who had no business trying to sabotage a sitting president.

I’m sorry, but yet again hearing a lot of fallacies and assumptions in order to save the Jesus story over and over again is kind of boring!

@jeffcarr6853

3 жыл бұрын

Name one, please.

@kmtgoddess7793

3 жыл бұрын

Facts the christian arguement is weak 1. Disciples suffered and died for this A. prove they died for this, prove this is even a true story

@jeffcarr6853

3 жыл бұрын

@@kmtgoddess7793 The book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict lays out many proofs. It is worth a read.

@kmtgoddess7793

3 жыл бұрын

@@jeffcarr6853 does it explain why yaweh didnt destory rome

@jeffcarr6853

3 жыл бұрын

@@kmtgoddess7793 I will get back to you on that. My current opinion about that is; Yahweh did not need to destroy the Roman Empire as he knew that mankind would do the job.

Debates between the followers of Apollonius and Jesus? Curious they don't appear in the NT.

when my mum was still alive and suffering the terminal cancer, i wanted to swap places with her for her to get better. but it wasnt to be. that's what the jesus or other diety or ideology is, a false hope in miracles, despite reality. i much prefer reality than making up stuff like a child and fear driven to welcome ignorance as a sign of goodness or strength. funny how a liar makes a big point of being able to tell liars from truth speakers. we all lie a little, every day. are we liars? are we sinners? if you already bought into the ideas, then you have serious considerations. when you realize dichotomies rarely exist, human nature is more complex that liars or believers, you will be free of this fake idea of sin...which rather than a (fake) god enduring, becomes your mind jail unable to reach reality.

@Chris-op7yt

5 жыл бұрын

Captain 7 : i wasnt born speaking english but, it's "you're". anyway, just asserting a hidden super good and super bad diety is an argument from ignorance, i.e. stating things without any evidence. so you're merely asserting stuff and pretending you're saying something of substance. it's just life..and death. i didnt assume i was special. what does that have to do with dealing with anything? i know each day is a bonus. you feel free to comment on someone's loss with your absurd nothings. i dont need any fake reverence. on the other hand, silly comments arent particularly called for. there is no "wrong idea about god", as we each have a personal take on this myth of an idea.

@davidmahfuz5721

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician . 'Retards' are the religious, including Christians .

@Draezeth

4 жыл бұрын

Your experience has given you the perspective that Christianity is nothing but a false hope in miracles. At its core, however, you won't find any of that. Never in the Bible are believers instructed to pray or wait for miracles to happen. Rather, we're told to endure, because life *will* suck. Your view of Christianity is based on false premises.

@winstonsmiththx1138

4 жыл бұрын

@@Draezeth and your view of christianity is based on lies and false information

@Draezeth

4 жыл бұрын

@@winstonsmiththx1138 My view of Christianity is based on the Bible.

Wow.......so there were believers many years ago who died for their faith........so what. Doesn’t mean they saw a resurrection or a Jesus.....just that they believed like every Christian since. Also, they only mention the Christians who died and not the many believers who recanted. Same as the mormons don’t really mention all the witnesses who later recanted.

Everytime Luuk says "Right?" (which is all the time) it reminds me of South Park's Mr. Mackey saying "Mmm...K?"

@warren52nz

3 жыл бұрын

@perpetual eye Oh yeah, right. Oops. 😊 Changed it.

because someone may have used a certain word does not strengthen evidence

If there was a Jesus, why didn't he save Luuk from drowning and dying. Cringeworthy and embarrassing 😱

How about Jesus didn't exist,anyone thought of that?

@Glasstable2011

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, Richard Carrier

Haha! Michael and Luuk has the exactly same speaking voice...

@deusvult9372

4 жыл бұрын

Lol. I was thinking the same.

@youtubemoderationtaskforce5583

4 жыл бұрын

They do? I don’t hear it. One sounds like kip from Napoleon dynamite and the other sounds like a regular guy.

@cwjalexx

3 жыл бұрын

@@youtubemoderationtaskforce5583 Michael and Luuk's voices are very similar. I think your vision is biasing your ears. He does LOOK similar to Kip from napoleon dynamite, but sounds nothing like him. Kip's voice is higher pitched and is purposely effeminate by resonating and accenting his S's. Michael and Luuk both speak with similar pitch and timbre. They both lean into consonants in a similar way.

@youtubemoderationtaskforce5583

3 жыл бұрын

@@cwjalexx I just listened again. I didn’t use my vision this time. Alright, on a scale from one to ten, and Kip from Napoleon dynamite is 10, I would say Luuk is like an 8 and Michael is a 4. So Michael is 6 notches away from kip and luuk is only 2. And luuk and Michael are still 4 notches away from each other. Side note: Some deep voiced black guy would be 1 on the scale.

@cwjalexx

3 жыл бұрын

@@youtubemoderationtaskforce5583 I don't know what your scale means. Are you referring to pitch? timbre? inflection? pronunciation? Kip's voice is so different to my ear. He's purposely trying to sound effeminate with his emphasis on the letter "S". It's been shown in studies that our perception of how "S" is pronounced heavily influences what gender we think we are hearing. He also speaks with higher pitch. Michael and Luuk are speaking with like only 10 hz of difference in frequency.

The thing that gets me is, why in the heck doesn't God/Jesus show some real miracles every couple of thousand years or so? I'd love to see it!

@melbied6215

Жыл бұрын

Because he doesn’t exist?

@joeturner9219

8 ай бұрын

​@@melbied6215That's your opinion though

@melbied6215

8 ай бұрын

@@joeturner9219 Sort of. It’s my opinion in the same way Bigfoot doesn’t exist is…

You can’t debate a miracle you can only debate the assertion that something strange happened.

@MrMattSax

6 ай бұрын

Strange, rare or unexplainable.

@kieronbrowne7881

6 ай бұрын

@@MrMattSax A bit like and imaginary god.

My personal opinion about Jesus is that "a con man would cure individual people, a deity would eradicate all disease."

@croakingfrog3173

5 жыл бұрын

Your diety would eradicate all disease I suppose.

@RobGravelle

5 жыл бұрын

​@@croakingfrog3173 Hard to say. However, the god who created the universe with just a few words could conceivably do so.

@IAteTheCannoli

Жыл бұрын

​@@croakingfrog3173 Well, if a deity was omnibenevolent, like the Christians claim their Abrahamic god is, then he WOULD eradicate disease and evil, etc. But since that hasn't happened, it logically follows to conclude that that god ethier exists but is apathetic to our hardships, he exists but is powerless to stop evil, he exists and he IS evil, or he simply does not exist at all. Ethier way, fuck that god if he created hell to torture people in forever. What a loser.

Answer...no

It's fine to be skeptical. But it's also fine to believe in your experiences of the paranormal or supernatural even if "Shermers Science" says i don't know. He misses the mark on the precognitive dreaming too. Throwing numbers around about one specific dream. Those who consistently have precognitive dreams experience a pattern over time. They're not just one offs. But we need Shermer to balance things out. His Joe Rogan episode with Graham Hancock is an interesting view.

There may have been eyewitnesses, but none of them wrote about the experience. All we have are tales of their experiences by third parties who were not eyewitnesses themselves.

@jdetres01

5 жыл бұрын

Anonymous stories based on anonymous storytelling of a magic man who broke every jewish law and wasn't slain on the spot like everyone before them... But no one bothered to mention the guy who fed 5k people. BS, never have 5k people been anywhere and no one writes about a hyper magic that produced food for everyone. The child whos food was turned into a feast, where is he?

If the miracles of Jesus had really occurred, then they would still be accompanying the minisitry of todays's followers of Jesus. We should expect to have this consistency, for as John 14:12 says: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." The absence of those miracle demonstrates that we can falsify the Gospel, for the prophecy is false.

@andys3035

5 жыл бұрын

Biblical exegetes have seen that passage as pertaining to the apostles and therefore fulfilled. The other claim that a miracle should could continue to happen today in the same or greater degree and in the same or greater frequency by definition makes a miracle the norm and not a miracle.

@psandbergnz

5 жыл бұрын

@@andys3035, there is no textual evidence to support your claim that Jesus only had his apostles in mind. On the contrary, exegesis of the NT text indicates that Jesus applies his teachings to all his followers. For example, visions and prophecies are supposed to continue to the end times. This is why evangelical churches claim that they have a miraculous healing ministry, through prayer and the laying on of hands, as well as the gift of prophecy, and these signs are not suposed to disappear, e.g. Acts 2:17: " 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." Miracles are supposed to accompanyJesus' followers. This would not contradict the definition of miracle, which is an event attributable to divine intervention, not explicable through natural or scientific means. As for getting prophecy right, Christians probably have the worst track record, even arguably beaten by pagan Nostradamus! Just do a search on Christian prophecies throughout the ages! Jesus himself erroneously prophesied the end of the Age and the coming of God's kingdoms "while some standing here" are stil alive, and in another Gospel, within the lifetime of the generation of his listeners. With hindsight, we can see that Jesus mis-read thei signs of his times, and got it wrong. That's why you're still waiting for the Second Advent, even after the passage of some 2,000 years! Note also Mark 16:18: "They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Christians are not particularly favoured - they succomb to disease and harm just like everybody else. There is nothing special about Christians. Amputees or people with withered arms don't have their limbs restored through prayer.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@@psandbergnz This is very simple indeed, even an atheist can get there. The gifts, healing etc were not for all times the bible made that clear. they ceased after Acts if you check the 4 Prison Epistles and the 3 Pastoral Epistles you will see they have disappeared. note too that in What Paul could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. Taking one passage out of context is the indication you are communicating with atheists. poor things lol.

@psandbergnz

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 , I showed from Acts 2:17 ("in the last days..") you are wrong that the gifts were supposed to cease. The fact that they no longer operate makes it implausible that they EVER operated, even with Jesus himself. Mark 16:17-18 says that "WHOEVER" believes and is baptised will have signs accompanying them, such as driving out demons and not succombing to lethal poison and snakes. So it is a prophecy not limited to the apostles or time. It is clearly a failed prophecy, since now, with 2,000 years of hindsight behind us, we know that Christians have no special protection from poison or snakes or anything else. The epistles of Paul and the Pastoral epistles do NOT say that the gifts had disappeared. Note that the epistles were written BEFORE the book of Acts was, so you clearly don't understand much about the Bible! Your argument that "what Paul could do in Acts 28 he could no longer do in Philippians or in Timothy" MAKES NO SENSE! Acts was around 80 AD (just after Luke), whereas the epistles were written around the 40s or 50s AD. Note also that the four Gospels are ANONYMOUS - nobody has a clue who the authors of any of them are - so you have no basis for insisting that they are reliable writings. The Gosp[els are just hearsay from unkwnown writers. They are not written by eyewitnesses (all written in the 3rd person), and don't claim to be.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@UCu9rxwZN9igTmBJijYF8rJA Well, Bret, the reason is very simple, it's the same reason they try to redefine atheism as 'don't ask me anything' and I want to label you, but don't label me. As regards the bible that is simple too they do not want evidence, where did you get that idea?

Who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?

@governor7203

5 жыл бұрын

I bet Matthew, Mark, Like, and John did .. :)

@brianl8843

5 жыл бұрын

If you research this. Scholarly consensus is that anonymous authors wrote Matthew Mark Luke and John. Not people of that name. If you want further evidence of this, why is it written in 3rd person instead of 1st person?

@annebk4710

5 жыл бұрын

Nobody knows.

@peterimbery988

5 жыл бұрын

It a good portion of the bibles it even states in the notes that they don't know who wrote those books.. . They just assigned them names

27:30 Did Michael lift the food joke from Sam Harris, or did Sam lift it from Michael?

Did Luuk claim that there’s not extraordinary evidence for evolution? Only in America, :(. Kids, pay attention in science class. Go to a secular college.

@eskoelmwood5936

5 жыл бұрын

Hey I went to a catholic university and that's what lead me to question my beliefs.

@zach2980

5 жыл бұрын

@@eskoelmwood5936 The truth is more amazing that any story. Congrats on your questioning.

@zach2980

5 жыл бұрын

Here, more on our amazing history. To better illustrate life on Earth, extend out both your arms to your left and right. The Earth is to date at least 4.6 billion years old and that beginning is represented at the tips of your right middle finger. There’s evidence that single celled bacteria existed at your right wrist. Then life existed as such for another 3 billion years. Then at your left elbow we see the most basic of multi cellular life. Mammals didn’t show up until around the base knuckle of your left fingers. The human species only exists in the last millimeter of your left middle finger. Add to this, we probably wouldn't have risen to our status if the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by an asteroid 66 mya. Some design huh, it incredible, just not evidence of a god speaking things into existence.

@seanjones2456

5 жыл бұрын

@@zach2980 Blasphemy! God did it! Just kidding:) The ark experience in Kentucky has dinosaurs on Noah's ark! Fart sound.

@zach2980

5 жыл бұрын

@@seanjones2456 Blasphemy, a victimless crime? :) Do you think the Ark Encounter creates more believers or non believers? I predict the latter. Speaking of farts, one window on that ark woulda proved the quick demise of all life on that floating zoo. Ridiculous that grown people believe that story. I know 4 yr olds that call bullshit.

A well-prepared, thoughtful debate. I find Luuk's response researched and rational. There is a lot of food for thought here!

@HarryNicNicholas

4 жыл бұрын

by definition he can't be rational, everything he has is based on a god myth. i bet you find it really easy to dismiss the islamic miracles. god: "i love you, you will love me, or, i will burn you alive every day for eternity" sounds like a distant relative of hannibal lector. tell me, do you personally think you are going to heaven, or hell, i'd like to hear your reasons.

@greglogan7706

4 жыл бұрын

@@HarryNicNicholas Good questions.... I wish you would have received a response especially regarding Islamic miracles etc

@janbuyck1

4 жыл бұрын

Most of what Luuk is stating here has been debunked several times before by now. He’s not really funding his claims with valid evidence. Also : check out some historians like Richard Carrier or even Bart Ehrman, the last one even believes that Jesus is a historical figure.

There is a core deception behind this type of apologetic: that the gospel authors were eyewitness accounts. The majority of scholarship disagrees with this position and actually present good evidence that Mark was written first, decades after the events, that Luke and Matthew followed, expanded on the accounts while also containing massive amounts of texts taken directly from Mark, and then followed by John who presents the most magical version of Jesus.

These beliefs are impressive in the 21st century. You would think these beliefs are impossible, but with Luuk’s opening, it seems humans can believe anything.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

Case in point you moronic atheist believe a rat like land animal ate insects from a lake and evolved in to whales...lol...Why do atheist make the ridiculous rule we cannot use the bible as historical accounts? History is the recording of past events but the wimpy atheist know if they admit the bible in as accounts of what people saw (Peter: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty") they have to admit they are morons and missed the boat on God and to be blunt are quite stupid.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

_"These beliefs are impressive in the 21st century. You would think these beliefs are impossible, but with Luuk’s opening, it seems humans can believe anything. "_ Yes as you are evidence of.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 to quote Jesus: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away". Get on board Sarah before its too late.

@Sasquatch4lifeX

5 жыл бұрын

Sarah Clark “evidence of”? Which belief of mine are you referring to? The belief of people believing anything?

@Sasquatch4lifeX

5 жыл бұрын

Bret Zajac It is obvious that you need to read up on evolution, so i will completely ignore that part of the comment. Even if the bible is an accurate account of what people saw (although it is written decades later and even edited, as well as not even second hand reports) it still wouldn’t warrant belief in the impossible [resurrection]. Just because i tell you something, doesn’t mean its true. This should be obvious. This is why there is a clear distinction between science and religion. The standards for evidence in science are absurdly high, to start they need to pass 95% accuracy in statistics (significance test). To believe something impossible happened because, YOU WERE TOLD. Is foolish

1:47:55 Luuk, with all of his biblical degrees, shows us his lack of critical thinking skills. ... including equating his faith in the dentist's mysterious "tooth filling capabilities" with Jesus' plethora of capabilities (Universe making / loaf and fish multiplication)

@GertGybels

5 жыл бұрын

and... I can verify if my dentist uses the correct procedure. By patients I know if theyr fillings are correctly done, by asking him to show me, asking which collega he wen't to, showing the diplomas. Try that with God, I know people that trust him but still died at early age in a car accident, i know people that trust him doing miracles but they can't show me how he did it. (you have to have faith...) and sure a 2000y old book isn't a solely trustworthy reference or 'diploma'

48:27, ok, lol, good point, about Apollonius, if true, I've got to admit...and I didn't know that they charged them with sorcery, lol, that does say something...but still...I mean, something, but not nearly enough...I just didn't know that, and it's some help, lol, to the whole idea...

@archangecamilien1879

Жыл бұрын

I mean, I didn't know Apollonius was from one source, and that much later, etc...

Luuk might need to take a better look at the Fatima miracle... Not so easy to explain.

"Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?" Short answer is YES, thanks for coming.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

The thoughts of an atheist:- _"Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?""_ _" short answer is YES, thanks for coming."_ The actions of secular atheistic governments- the cause of the worst atrocities the world has ever known. more murdered in the 20th century than murdered in all other centuries combined. Thanks for coming.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

The reasoning of an atheist and a Christian- Atheist: Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?" Yes . Christian: Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?" No. Question. was the universe, coming into existence a miracle or an act of God. Give your evidence with your answer.

@HughJaxident67

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 *The actions of secular atheistic governments- the cause of the worst atrocities the world has ever known. more murdered in the 20th century than murdered in all other centuries combined* Sarah, you're an ignoramus. The atrocities of the 20th century were enacted by Totalitarian dictatorships, all of which suppressed anything considered to be a challenge to the core politic or ideology, that included religions. Ironically, the structure of these regimes was almost identical to a theocracy, where the leader adopted the role of a godhead. Not one SINGLE example of such atrocities was perpetrated in the name of atheism, but through the ideological 'principles' of Communism. Ironically, Hitler was a theist who appealed to almighty god on numerous occasions for his actions, you've evidently never read Mein Kampf have you! When you have the slightest idea what you're talking about you can reply Again, thanks for coming ;)

@HughJaxident67

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 *Atheist: Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?" Yes * Because there is zero objective evidence any such thing ever happened. Some iron age anonymous authors claiming otherwise is not remotely good evidence *Christian: Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?" No*. Because being a Christian involves indoctrination, credulity and gullibility. *Question. was the universe, coming into existence a miracle or an act of God. Give your evidence with your answer* Not only is this a false dichotomy, it's demonstrably false as the evidence for the Big Bang is exclusively natural.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@@HughJaxident67 _"Atheist: Are the miracles of Jesus unbelievable?" Yes * Because there is zero objective evidence any such thing ever happened. Some iron age anonymous authors claiming otherwise is not remotely good evidence"_ Sadly for you, "Some iron age anonymous authors" have credibility you do not have, it's very sad that you have become such a low-value creature, but you can redeem yourself if you want since I really, really want to become an atheist. I'm prepared to bang my head against the wall repeatedly in order to meet the IQ requirement of 36. However, before I do so I would like evidence atheism is true. I understand you will redefine it not to mean a denial of a Gods existence, but I spoke to a card-carrying, atheist on the number 13 bus, he had the white lab coat, the homemade laminated badge, coloured in, and he almost stayed within the lines. it was definitely genuine since the badge said I love Dick Dawkins on it, and it was signed by the Dick himself, said that you guys get a signed photograph of the great man the Lord Jesus Christ oh, sorry I meant to say our lord Dick Dawkins, and two candles to put either side of the great man Dick Head of biology. now I need evidence that you have the lab coat and the laminated badge since the man on the number 13 bus said he had conclusive proof that atheism is true, otherwise, he would be an agnostic. I should tell you now I have the bar set to accept your evidence the same as you have set mine, so I reject any evidence whatsoever that atheism is true and correct but I am open minded and want your evidence so I can reject it. That's the level of credibility you have.

The Bible is no more important than any book written by humans! If god exists he should show himself...

I consider Luuk Vandeweghe poor in this debate. Although the issue of miracles is more general than only the miracles of Jesus and this was the topic, I can't take seriously any approach that doesn't explain why ALL others people miracles are fake and only "mine" are real. Or the believer deals with that or we have doors fully opened to some sort of relativism (which no apologist is opened to accept). As Shermer said we have no record of people returning from death, and if someone came to us saying that another person really did, even if this messenger was able to kill and die for it, we wouldn't buy it, because is much more plausible that something is missing and the resurrection is not the best explanation. In the same sense that if open your fridge and your icecream is missing, even if your house was locked and you live alone etc., nobody would suppose that your icecream ascended to heavens in glory. Even if I can't explain how it disappeared, only a fool would go for the supernatural explanation. I'm not anti-religious and I don't think religion is poison and all this BS from new atheists and I'm all for Shermer's point about the Fatima miracles: any protestant has the burden to prove all catholic miracles are fake and if he can't, to respond why isn't he a catholic. And all the same or to other people religions and miracles.

4 жыл бұрын

Trolltician and if catholic miracles are real than why are you not catholic?

Luke's arguments why the bible has to be true applies to every other religion too. Are they all true for the same reasons?

This guy is the worst Christian debater I've ever listened to.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

Why do atheist make the ridiculous rule we cannot use the bible as historical accounts? History is the recording of past events but the wimpy atheist know if they admit the bible in as accounts of what people saw (Peter: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty") they have to admit they are morons and missed the boat on God and to be blunt are quite stupid.

Heinrich Schliemann discovered the city of Troy based upon Homer's the illiad. So Luke pin pointing a known island is evidence of jesus. That must mean the story of Achilles is true, and therefore the mount Olympus is real.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

Why do atheist make the ridiculous rule we cannot use the bible as historical accounts? History is the recording of past events but the wimpy atheist know if they admit the bible in as accounts of what people saw (Peter: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty") they have to admit they are morons and missed the boat on God and to be blunt are quite stupid.

@doctorwebman

5 жыл бұрын

@@bretzajac7986 Because, that is circular reasoning, which is false logic. You can't prove anything using false logic.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

@@doctorwebman you sound insane or uninformed. We have witness statements we can compare to observation. By your standards unless it happens in front of you its circular reasoning? What an ego you have. How would any legal case go forward if you are using eye witness testimony to "prove" a point? You as a lawyer would say "Hey we cant use it because its circular reasoning in that its his eye witness testimony but i don't like it". You sound like a little brat arguing with his mommy not to eat his vegetables.

@doctorwebman

5 жыл бұрын

@@bretzajac7986 Yes, sane people will seem insane to insane people. You have zero eyewitness accounts. None of the gospels are eyewitness accounts, and there are no eyewitness accounts outside the Bible, either. You have nothing but hearsay. You can't use the hearsay to prove the hearsay is true. That is circular reasoning. Here is your circular reasoning: The Bible says Jesus was resurrected. How do we know Jesus was resurrected? Because, the Bible says so.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

@@doctorwebman and those speaking on subjects they have no clue about to those who do also seems insane.

Luuk keeps saying 'right?' as though everybody agrees with him. He should just make a point and not assume everyone agrees. It's patronizing.

How many of the Patients of Mother Theresa Survived Surly with someone like her Praying for you it would be a high number

1:35:00 - So god will give your dad $40,000 but he won’t heal an amputee?

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

Well, he could do neither, one or the other or both, it depends on what the purpose of the gift was for.

@77megapixels53

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 I prayed this morning that God would keep me safe on my commute to work, and he granted that prayer since I got to work safely. So, why did he grant that prayer but has never once granted an amputee's prayer to regrow their limb?

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@@77megapixels53 I am pleased you felt your prayer was answered. Given you are having your prayers answered pray to God he will answer your question concerning the amputee. When you have done so give it a week or so since you are not going to receive an audible answer since the answer is already at hand to you and it's going to take a few days for you to realise that such a post to me will not solicit a reply like you would receive from one of your dumb mates, as actually, I think you have the capacity to get there if your stupidity wasn't pandered to. if you cant I will point you to why that is. So go to your room go on your knees and ask God to soften Sarah's heart so thee miserable fool you are will be tolerated by her. If you are too proud to go on your knees to almighty God you have bigger problems than asking about the here and now. If you want to continue debating that is fine by me, however, this will not end in the way you think it will so think hard before responding as the wise atheist would run away.

@77megapixels53

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 ok, just prayed to god about amputees. I'll wait a week and report back. BTW, what should I be on the lookout for for a reply since, you know, it won't be audible?

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@@77megapixels53 The answer.

It would be great if the Christian dude would stop preaching and actually debate.

He’s quoting Bart Ehrman on Apolonius of Tyana - I’m skeptical of this account of him, I seem to remember there’s nothing to back up Ehrman’s claims. Might be wrong of course

@soslothful

Жыл бұрын

And the "Latin words" joke is I suspect, borrowed for Sam Harris.

I'm listening to this in my car and the debaters identical, most confusing!

@BrianBattles

5 жыл бұрын

Luke is the one who says "right?" every other word

If Jesus in fact is God/Son, would anything be impossible?! The reason why he did miracles was to show who he was.

@jckensway2956

5 жыл бұрын

Oh I see. And then no more ‘miracles’ for 2,000 years right? Miracle claims are common in all religions but of course in the main Westerners only get exposed to the Christian ones.

@jdetres01

5 жыл бұрын

If jesus existed at all... The whole plot of the book arcs toward a warrior king to save the jews... Once and for all from all the horrors theyve lived through, except even Israel now acknowledges they were never slaves in egypt which would kind of blow the plot completely out of the water for all the things jesus had to come back and fullfill. If you can even convince me the plot of the story makes sense then I'd be open to discuss the specfics of how we know for a fact that the jesus character in the bible never existed and to use the books own words to disprove it in the same way we disprove joseph smiths new christian sequel mormonism.

@gusb232

5 жыл бұрын

"would anything be impossible?!" yes most theologians believe there are things that even a God couldnt do, mostly because they are or might be illogical. Are you saying all things are actually possible if there is a god?

@Draezeth

4 жыл бұрын

@@jdetres01 The ignorance in your comment is appalling. There are two portrayals of Messiah in the Old Testament: one as a lowly sufferer, and one as a glorious conqueror. Prior to the coming of Jesus, one theory was that there would be two separate messiahs. We now know that it simply refers to two comings of the same one, one of which happened, and one of which is still to come. Israel also hasn't abandoned the Exodus story. Netanyahu certainly hasn't. And asking ethnic, rather than religious Jews is the wrong way to go. The evidence for the Exodus is staggering, people just got the dates all wrong. It's basically proven at this point, historians just need to arrive at a consensus on the matter.

@nickolasgaspar9660

4 жыл бұрын

lol pretty lame....

What is highly ironic is where defenders of atheism or ‘no god’ groups proudly boast of authors to define ideas, for example, that their understanding of ‘miracles’ i.e. hume is correct to begin with bemusedly behave like christians with the bible - and trusting it as truth.

@merlepatterson

5 жыл бұрын

The major difference being the scientific philosophers relying on thousands upon thousand of written reference books and materials. Whereas theologians relying on only one non scientific reference book.

@gjeacocke

5 жыл бұрын

You clearly have failed to grasp what i am saying. Why do atheists PRESUME the reasoning of these philosophers were 100% correct or even understood the nature of miracles as DEFINED by Christianity or jewish faith rather than they DEFINE miracles by their own terms. You haven’t studied theology to say ppl of faith do no refer to non religeous texts. Have you even read?

@merlepatterson

5 жыл бұрын

I don't know of any scientific philosophers having held a 100% belief in reference materials. In fact, most scientific philosophers will stop at "I don't know" or "It can't be held as certain" when it comes to unanswered questions of the nature of reality or the physical world. Whereas theologians don't end at "I don't know" as a long studied conclusion, but begin at "I know for certain" as a starting point before rational investigation.

@gjeacocke

5 жыл бұрын

Michael shermer HAD blind faith hume understood miracles thats why he used Hume as the definition FOR explaining what a miracle IS. So your argument FAILED. You use science and except everything science claims as truth therefore you are acting like believers with god.

@merlepatterson

5 жыл бұрын

@@gjeacocke "Michael Shermer HAD blind faith Hume understood miracles" Just to be clear, those are YOUR words of Michael Shermer's mindset and are a presumption of his standing on belief systems. Hume can be used as an example of reference not an end-all-be-all to the greater context of the nature of reality. You and I have our own personal perspectives on belief systems, but we cannot attribute or project our personal beliefs onto others personal beliefs. That is a dogmatism unto itself.

There is no such thing as the gospel of Mark as if Mark had written it. The papyrus fragments containing this gospel is said to be the gospel ACCORDING to Mark. Most scholars believe that it was written anonymously, and that the name of Mark was attached later to link it to an authoritative figure.The oldest one has been dated between AD 150 and 250. The current complete gospel is a compilation of all the fragments found.

I get the, "I don't know" position. But why must we talk in terms of absolute proof? Or even overwhelmingly in-your-face empirical evidence? What's wrong with simply making a provisional inference? What's wrong with saying, "I don't know for sure, but I can see how God would make sense?" Why is Shermer insisting on an all-or-nothing position with regard to evidence in favor of God's existence?

@kamiltrzebiatowski3745

4 жыл бұрын

Perhaps because claiming there is someone (ie God) is not taking a halfway position?

1hour 46 min 30 sec. Huge fart

They're quite obviously not unbelievable because people believe they happened, but some people would believe anything.

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

_"They're quite obviously not unbelievable because people believe they happened, but some people would believe anything."_ Seemingly you are proof of that.

@crazyprayingmantis5596

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 Go on

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 _"Go on"_ more evidence for my point.

@crazyprayingmantis5596

5 жыл бұрын

@@sarahclark5447 Which is?

@sarahclark5447

5 жыл бұрын

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 _"Which is?"_ 'Which is' more evidence.

Unbelievable miracles are the best kind.

Is it just me or that video is jumping and corrupted?

Luke was 2 minutes into the narrative he was building a pity image trying to wake up our sorry for the Christians.. I was bored.. then he said this man healed people .. ahh just like the modern healers .. we got people burning themselves for Buddha or poison their children for a supposed prophet .. and this in modern time were those fools .. no they were fooled.. rest my case

What you are talking about is not miracles but stories about miracles. In stories, anything is possible.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

as Peter said: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty". Jesus also said for some even one rising from the dead will not be enough.

@doctorwebman

5 жыл бұрын

@@bretzajac7986 That is circular reasoning. How do we know Peter did not follow cleverly devised stories? The Bible says so. How do we know the Bible is true? The Bible says so . . . etc.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

@@doctorwebman by comparing other sources to confirm his story. Atheist will do anything and believe any nonsense instead of just accepting the obvious.

@doctorwebman

5 жыл бұрын

@@bretzajac7986 You apparently don't know how to reason. The Bible is the CLAIM. Using the claim to prove the claim is false logic, circular reasoning. How can you not understand that? If I wrote a claim where I was visited by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and then wrote in the story that everything I say is true, does that mean it's all true? No. I have to support the story with things that are NOT found in the claim.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

@@doctorwebman your ignorance on history is only surpassed by your ignorance on Christianity. the bible claims 1800+ prophesies and many written (we have the ancient text) centuries before the events. This is observable, testable and verifiable and unique to only the bible and no other religions. Daniel in the Dead Sea Scrolls pre-dated as being prior to the events foretold. Paul and Daniel pre-dated 3+ centuries before their prophesies of the Image, Man of Sin and Little Horn are observable, testable and verifiable and unique to only the bible and no other religions. you really do not understand the definition of history or historical documents do you? Well here it is: "a record or narrative description of past events". you just are biased and do not accept the bible but i assume you accept secular historical documents? seems quite hypocritical and shallow.

“Between a father and a child”. Patriarchy and Preachy summing up here.

@isidoreaerys8745

Жыл бұрын

He was clearly born into privilege so it’s no wonder he holds the Christian worldview that reinforces White supremacist imperialism in such high regard.

Luuk is good... I enjoyed listening to him... Also had a strange sense that Michael is not as skeptical as he tries to appear... Thanks for the content.

Yes. They are unbelievable. They are magic. What did you think

@Mr.Goodkat

5 жыл бұрын

Magic is a nonsense word, a placeholder word when someone can't understand the mechanism through which something happens. People say telekinetic ability's are magic but if we confirmed they existed and went on too fully explain and understand the mechanism through which they worked people would stop calling them magic but how they worked would have never changed they wouldn't have changed from being done by magic to now being done through some other means it's just that people would now understand enough about them that they stop calling it magic. There is an explanation/mechanism through which Jesus performed miracles, it's god, basically the idea being put forth is that an intelligence of some kind created the universe and is able and willing to perform these acts on his behalf the other beings in this universe not having seen these acts before are stunned by them and some label them magic but magic is not what performed these acts because magic is not a being, it can't do anything, it isn't even a process through which things are done, it is a human created category for mysteries with no obvious causal mechanism to rest until they are better understood. No one is saying Magic did it cause it isn't even a thing they are saying god is a thing and he did it.

@whatwecalllife7034

5 жыл бұрын

@@Mr.Goodkat You literally explained magic by appealing to more magic

@NathanAMeyers

5 жыл бұрын

@@Mr.Goodkat I agree with your explanation, but I too see that you've appealed to more magic. The phenomenon of God is not fully understood. Telekinesis, if proven real, wouldn't be magic anymore - so God, if proven real, would not be magic anymore.

@Mr.Goodkat

5 жыл бұрын

@@NathanAMeyers Whether Telekinesis is proven real or not isn't relevant because it still wouldn't be magic, magic is not a thing, it's a human created category saying something is caused by magic and then later discovering the mechanism and saying "oh it's not magic anymore" it never was, it was always that undiscovered mechanism magic is not a thing if god exists and is parting seas and raising the dead it still isn't a thing, it's a linguistic creation when we created the sound/word magic we thereby created a category in our minds and it doesn't correspond to ANYTHING outside our minds, it's a meaningless word.

@Mr.Goodkat

5 жыл бұрын

@@whatwecalllife7034 How? there isn't anything to explain because the word magic is gibberish, it's not only that I don't consider magic a thing I don't even consider it a valid word it's a sound with no meaning to me not a category I use. There's two category's to me things we do understand and things we don't, if someone says to me is anything in either magic I ask what does that mean?

So basically, Luuk is saying, god can never lose. have your cake and eat it to fallacy.

@hojda1

5 жыл бұрын

Indeed, "IF God created the Universe and he is outside of it, he can feed a new event into it." Where is the fallacy to this hypothetical statement?

@isidoreaerys8745

Жыл бұрын

Christianity’s Sophistry is airtight. It’s had millennia to refine its strategies. Like a Chinese finger trap that ensnares the mind and replaces the individual with a the will of a collective which seeks to preserve and parasitically reproduce its dogma using its host.

1:11:54 I think Christopher Hitchens could say what he wanted, lol, in that particular case, knowing they came from a Bible study would be a good thing...and I say that as an atheist...maybe not for other things, like being kind to a gay person, etc...

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks the gospels were written by disciples. Extremely ignorant. Just read them.

@saycheese6773

2 жыл бұрын

What do you mean??

@john1425

2 жыл бұрын

@@saycheese6773 Read the first couple of verses of luke he says the stories have been handed down to them from the eyewitnesses. He never claimed to have met jesus. The earliest writings after Jesus' death were from Paul and he never met jesus either. Bottom line is we have no writings from anyone who ever met jesus. Anyone that has been to seminary knows this its not a secret or disputed among scholars.

Mr. Luke is under tremendous pressure to explain the unexplainable. What an oxymoron!

There is no independent contemporary corroborating evidence for ANYthing Luuk Vandeweghe thinks he knows about Jesus or his life. (Referencing discussion at about 1:18 in the discussion section, as well as pretty much everything else he claims.)

@TheSpaniard-5337

5 жыл бұрын

That is simply not true. Luuk brought up atleast one and there are many other non-believer historians who reffer to Jesus and the christians.

@a.t.6322

5 жыл бұрын

Josephus lived in Jerusalem at the same time James the brother of Jesus was stoned to death. It caused such an uproar he recorded the stoning in his writings. Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus' brother.

@gusb232

5 жыл бұрын

@@TheSpaniard-5337 "historians who reffer to Jesus and the christians." Right but Referring to later Christians is not even the same as a historian who was a contemporary of Jesus writing he existed much less good reason to believe Jesus could have the acts attributed to him.

@bretzajac7986

5 жыл бұрын

Why do atheist make the ridiculous rule we cannot use the bible as historical accounts? History is the recording of past events but the wimpy atheist know if they admit the bible in as accounts of what people saw (Peter: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty") they have to admit they are morons and missed the boat on God and to be blunt are quite stupid.

@GuitarDog_atx

5 жыл бұрын

@@bretzajac7986 The most important event in all of history ordained by the most powerful being in the universe is completely absent from the history books at the time they supposedly happened. Why is your god so incompetent? The jews weren't convinced jesus was divine - this was after supposedly after seeing him control the weather, raising the dead, healing people, seeing *their* own prophecies being fulfilled. Jesus couldn't do magic tricks for Pilate & Caiaphas - the word this individual is "fraud" So we are stupid because we give an all powerful, loving deity (if he/she existed) more credit than you do? I'm not worshiping any deity that's less moral and has less common sense than I do. Any deity that had to kill himself to save his creation from himself because a ribwoman ate magic fruit is a pretty pathetic god. If I missed the boat to your baby killing god, that's a good thing.