In the "Encyclopedia of Wars" (2004), Axelrod and Philips assign causes to 1763 conflicts throughout recorded history. Only 121 are assigned to religion. That's a little under 7%. Curiously, 66 of those specifically involved Islam, meaning that all other religions combined were involved in about 3% of wars. Martel's "The Encyclopedia of War" (2012) confirms a percentage of 6% for wars involving religion. The BBC's "God and War" audit analyzed 73 wars throughout history, assigning them a value of 1 (lowest) to 5 (highest) for "intensity of religious factors as motivation". Of those 73 wars, 7 have a rating of 3 or higher. Only 3 have a rating of 5. The other 93% of wars are motivated by land, resources, political control, ethnic enmity, and a host of other secular reasons.

@MrFunzerker

5 жыл бұрын

New Man Oof

@mix0nix631

5 жыл бұрын

Interesting.

@wanderingwizard1361

5 жыл бұрын

None of that addresses the role of religion in enabling or sustaining the enthusiasm and cohesion necessary for war. The early Muslim conquests in the century after Muhammad were arguably about land, resources, etc. but they would not have happened without the soldiers believing they were fighting for god. The Spanish conquests in the Americas were not directly about religion, but religion helped fuel and sustain them. It's not that religion is necessary for evil, but when it gets thrown in situations often become a good deal worse.

@Alnivol666

5 жыл бұрын

@Wandering Wizard: The ideologies that caused the most suffering in the history of the world in a very short amount of time are secular. You are basically talking about a period in the history of the world where everybody was basically religious. That is how the world worked at that time.

@wanderingwizard1361

5 жыл бұрын

@Alnivol666 Observing that almost everyone was religious isn't an argument that religion doesn't usually make secular tensions worse. I can only assume that when you speak of ideologies, you mean fascism and communism, neither of which were practiced in any sort of secular way. The Nazis used the faith of their soldiers. The German uniform had the word god on it. The Bolsheviks entombed and embalmed Lenin like a new day Pharaoh gone to watch over his people in the afterlife. If you want to talk about religion in the more traditional Jewish, Muslim, Christian sense, monotheism has created intractable conflicts like no other ideology ever has. Look at the Roman empire for example. Rome conquered and behaved badly enough, but Rome generally allowed the assimilation of conquered people into the empire on a fairly reasonable basis. The Romans did not fight wars of religion. They had war gods they prayed to after wars started for other reasons. Compare the Roman conquest of Gaul to their conquest of the Jews. The Jews had a harder time reconciling themselves because they believed they had the only God. The other peoples of the empire joined more willingly after they were thoroughly beaten. More recently, we can look at the conflicts in the holy land, Ireland, the Balkans and we see people who feel irreconcilably separate and different in a way that is really not the same that we have seen elsewhere in history.

I think the winner of this debate is the person watching it.

@toms__animations200

5 жыл бұрын

Aw

@HolyWisdom93

5 жыл бұрын

That's the perception of Christ. Hallelujah.

@aben8763

5 жыл бұрын

I think the exact opposit

@mikekrier1465

5 жыл бұрын

Well then you lost because it's not a "debate" as sam said at the beginning.

@mukiwabanda2794

4 жыл бұрын

Mike Krier Well then you didnt watch the debate that transpired because you took Sam at his word and didn't watch the program.

What a sight: a young, enthusiastic audience gives tumultuous welcome not to a singer prancing on stage with 96 backup dancers, but to three sharp minds. There is hope for humanity yet.

@seamushogan9668

3 жыл бұрын

Actually thousands, I was there brah :)

@therealleonidas229

3 жыл бұрын

Only in Ireland would you see that much enthusiasm great people I love the Irish ❤

@Ryan-ze9fz

3 жыл бұрын

@@therealleonidas229 Jordan gets reactions like that all over North America. I think everyone everywhere is desperate to actually learn something

@therealleonidas229

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ryan-ze9fz true he is the last of a dying breath it's kills me seeing what's happening to Great men like that

@drycleanernick7603

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ryan-ze9fz that’s because we’re letting go of the essential truths.

"I'd just carry him in on a cross", Love listening to Peterson for his quick wit.

"The truth is a terrible thing but not compared to falsehood." Dr.Peterson Thank you. I'm trying to get my act together from a background not too dissimilar to yours. Your words of encouragement are pushing me towards waking up and taking responsibility for my life. I'm currently reading 12 Steps and I've been watching your lectures, this coupled with other reading and enrollment to college as a mature student is lifting me out of my own nihilism and giving me a sense of meaning and direction. My focus is strengthening and I'm slowly beginning to see the sense of my own chaos. You have given real hope to a lost 33yr old boy. It's never too late to become a great man and I thank you again, sincerely and emphatically.

@hiwhatexpectedarealnamewit8772

3 жыл бұрын

We all fall

If only political debates could be conducted with the same mutual respect, courtesy and decorum.

@niallmartin9063

5 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, there was much good will in evidence. Much disagreement, great arguments, much mutual polishing of the truth diamonds. A lesson in dignified discourse.

@eveninggreys3190

5 жыл бұрын

Well it’s because these guys are friends

@mikedoro6461

5 жыл бұрын

Well. "evening greys", I don't understand how that impacts this conversation. I have friends who have polar opposite political opinions to mine,

@lotusofcontrol5979

5 жыл бұрын

+

@lotusofcontrol5979

5 жыл бұрын

@@eveninggreys3190 well, they didn't start as friends. they started by reading each other's books.

"There is a transcendental dimension beyond language... it's just hard as hell to talk about it." - Terence McKenna

@nzarch9741

5 жыл бұрын

"Because for anything to happen in the real world it first has to happen in the imaginary world." - Paul Mckenna, Magician

@reportdabug

5 жыл бұрын

Yoooooooo my man. Love your profile

@mjnoon3609

5 жыл бұрын

Telepathy will be the language of the future.

@kkeithf

5 жыл бұрын

Mjnoon 360 I see what you mean. Shout out to We Plants are Happy Plants!

@davidhyrman144

5 жыл бұрын

Ya know its weird. I've been skeptical of mckenna after deep falling in love with him and now im starting to realize Peterson mentions a lot of the same ideas.

Sam makes me feel smart. Peterson makes me think I need to learn more.

@asnakechamenu3651

3 жыл бұрын

hmm optimist

@MustangMedic

3 жыл бұрын

Well said

@clintonmorgan9068

3 жыл бұрын

Are you saying you're smarter than sam harris?

@michaelfox5448

3 жыл бұрын

@@clintonmorgan9068 Not at all.

@clintonmorgan9068

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not accusing you of anything, both of these guys are obviously 135+ iqs. I tend to agree more with sam's point of view. It's a lot more concrete to me and centered. It's obvious that one has a phd in psychology and the other in neuroscience based on their views. In my opinion

Sam : Religious fundamentalism is bad. Jordan: I agree, let's see if we can extract out the superstition and fundamentalism. Sam: That's not possible or necessary. Let's just get rid of it. Superstition is bad. Jordan: Right, so here's a multidisciplinary approach to understanding religious narratives based in neuroscience, evolutionary biology, experimental psychology, and historical analysis. Sam: I could do the same thing with a cookbook. Jordan: If so, I invite you to try. Sam: Jordan: Sam: Religious fundamentalism is bad.

@doon5061

5 жыл бұрын

Accuracy is spot-on

@puffpasslogic729

4 жыл бұрын

Xxsoul 07 “I invite you to do so.” Ghetto translated to “Put up or shut up bitch! Ya! That’s what I thought.” Lol.

@sissyphussartre2907

4 жыл бұрын

Sam: there is no scientific evidence for god or any rational reason to believe in that particular fictional character. Peterson: oh but how will people be good little productive workers for society if they don't have a superstitious blind dogmatic belief in a genocidal magical maniac!?!?!!?

@basilides4648

4 жыл бұрын

@@sissyphussartre2907 This is projection taken to a whole new level. Its quite amazing actually

@africandiaspora8614

4 жыл бұрын

What is " Superstition " ?

Jordan Peterson is a man who has thought deeply, studied and conversed at length about the topics he is discussing. What an excellent benefit it is for me to listen to. My understanding and life quality improves through it.

@CareFreeCommuting

5 жыл бұрын

ferniek5000 yes, the first time I heard him I thought, “this is a new religious cult and he’s gonna have a ton of followers who are impressed by his ability to narrate truths without knowing much about them on a personal level.” The new religion, our prophets, priest and kings, that keep us all tribal (bordered) from the most rich experience of life, which is relationship between the individual and the stuff it’s come from.

@gary_michael_flanagan_wildlife

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! We are very fortunate to have someone like him in our lifetime. Check out his 2017 personality series also. And the biblical one. I have learned SO MUCH about how I interpret the world, how others interpret what I’m saying, how to better work with others, feel what others are feeling and how to get confident and not walk around being grumpy or resentful. It’s very easy to blame others or to treat people awful. Nowadays I try to compliment people I meet and do what I can in any situation to make things better. It really works if you practice it. Then you start noticing how some people are so sad, bitter and have a hard time in the world. It’s so easy to go that road but don’t!! You can do better. Thanks Dr Peterson! Glad he helped you both as well

Those chairs look so comfortable. I want one.

@JohnnyRockermeier

5 жыл бұрын

1. Go to www. JORISM . com to see the booklet, that I gave to Sam Jordan and Douglas 2. Watch the videos, there is way way more to come. Jordan was touched by the supernatural, and that is a objectiv Fact. It's about the 3 and the 27. www JORISM com. p.s. have you read the boklet Jordan? This is not a joke, look at the date that you first uploaded the Bill C-16 Video!

@johnsmith-vk6sf

5 жыл бұрын

@The Prickly Prick lol.

@johnsmith-vk6sf

5 жыл бұрын

@King of Kings I'm just a poor Aussie man.

@johnsmith-vk6sf

5 жыл бұрын

@@JohnnyRockermeier ok. I'll have a look.

@ElizabethEllenCarter

5 жыл бұрын

They're lovely, aren't they? I like the lyre-shape to the front.

A summing up: Jordan: This is a way to live better Sam: Naah...What about facts. Jordan: Fair enough. But we need this to live better together. Sam: Naah...What about facts. Jordan: Facts are not enough. You need a value system to live better together. Sam: Naah...What about facts.

@belinhobeli9569

2 жыл бұрын

The typical dishonest summary from "fans". Well done. Keep jerking in the right win circle.

@MrJohnnson03062

Жыл бұрын

Lmao

steelmanning the other's argument is like bowing before a fight.

@crowstakingoff

5 жыл бұрын

Good analogy

@AnnaLVajda

4 жыл бұрын

Yes it is completely underestimating ones opponent and very rude.

@alyziahstyres2180

3 жыл бұрын

@@AnnaLVajda que??

Dr. Peterson wearing his customary brown slaying suit.

@davisfarmer3407

3 жыл бұрын

Equivalent to being knighted ?

i forgot about this! its like finding a fifty in a forgotten pocket! what a treat!

@GrubKiller436

5 жыл бұрын

It's much more productive than the first two!

Peterson is on another level... lost respect for Sam trying to play witty to crowd while Peterson tries to search solutions honestly.

@handsomestik

5 жыл бұрын

Peterson hitting homeruns left and right. He didn't sell me on evidence of an almighty but other elements of his points really left me to ponder.

@DirtWolfLifts

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah it’s frustrating to watch Peterson adapt to every argument and reason through them while Harris just tries to maintain a philosophical high ground through redirecting conversation

the last time I saw chairs like that, an ominous bald man was presenting me a choice between different colored pills...

@ingmar89

3 жыл бұрын

Severely underrated comment

It seems to me that Sam is very smart but thinks in more simplistic terms about complex ideas. He seems to go about 5 layers below the surface, that's deeper than most of us. But JP seems to have the knowledge and wisdom from studying so many disciplines of psychology, biology, history, civilizations and so much more that he goes dozens of steps further into understanding the complexities of our systems, brains and behaviors.

@michawill6599

4 жыл бұрын

I know I've been hearing about him for ages and thought OK let's go and I'm disappointed by this

@tamarastankovic7081

4 жыл бұрын

nah he doesn't think about complex ideas. he's very black & white thinking

@ruburtoe1

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, through time he has worked to connect and reconcile these domains and dimensions of thought. It's wonderful when trying to steelman and understand him, and them, both. It's unfortunate when someone listens to them with a superficial philosophical/existential understanding and ridicule/dismiss them when they say that "a whale is a fish", thinking they're smarter knowing a whale is a mammal.

@EandE-podcast

3 жыл бұрын

Sam Harris believes what is tangible. Science is tangible because it can be proven in human terms. He thinks it’s a human weakness to believe in the spirit realm because you can’t prove that it’s there in human terms. Religions teach there is a spiritual hemisphere, a spiritual part of of you. A physical man vs a spiritual man says that that the physical man doesn’t think or believe in the spiritual element and thus sounds like woo. Sam Harris is careful however because tho the spiritual world hasn’t been proven it hasn’t been disproven so he shelf’s the idea of a real spiritual realm with a living god and says when I see evidence then I’ll believe but because God requires faith that will be the disconnect between him and God because human wisdom is his believe system. Thus his thrust if we are smart enough then we don’t need faith.

@adwaithratnakaran8017

3 жыл бұрын

I'd say, mostly, JP makes things more complicated than they need to be and Sam makes it more simplistic than it is. They are both obviously more than capable of thinking the way the other person does, but these are generally their preferred choices of stances. The debates between them are more than often end up being about how intricately a topic should be dissected and how deeply should you look into it before deciding its merits, or in some cases, demerits.

Been looking forward to this for a long time. Buckle up, buckos!

@j.h252

5 жыл бұрын

Jordan is a truly spiritual person, what many mouthy-christians are not, who throw around biblical verses, forgetting the most important aspect of any belief, to live it. They think by emotionally screaming Jesus, they would be on the bright side of the equation. Jordan is anything but bigot, so he always points out, how important it is to carry your own cross, and he had a heavy one with his depressions. He is right, not confessing to one of the many religions of Christianity, what will remain being a sting in their flesh, but to the Logos, to Christ, to God. One could say, he is opportunistic, to keep all doors open, but I think he expresses his most inner truth, seeing the scriptures as symbolic tales with the deepest imaginable content. All how I see it too, having a very intense relationship with the in me grown Christ, by meditating on this outstanding eternal being, who is the brother of all, even of the fallen ones. All love, does not exclude, but still speak, even harshly, the truth uncovering the flaws of the fallen, remember, how he spoke with the darkish and the traders in the temple.

@JohnnyRockermeier

5 жыл бұрын

1. Go to www. JORISM . com to see the booklet, that I gave to Sam Jordan and Douglas 2. Watch the videos, there is way way more to come. Jordan was touched by the supernatural, and that is a objectiv Fact. It's about the 3 and the 27. www JORISM com. p.s. have you read the boklet Jordan? This is not a joke, look at the date that you first uploaded the Bill C-16 Video!

@knoaf9092

5 жыл бұрын

or tell people to take responsibility for their own actions. Whats wrong with that?

@joelfry4982

5 жыл бұрын

Without free will it's all a pointless conversation. Sam Harris doesn't believe in free will. Therefore to discuss any of this with him is wasted breath. You have to discuss free will first.

I love listening to Dr.Peterson, especially how he explains articulately and expansively his thoughts, and synthesized all of these information into something any average person can understand and believe. This is powerful.

@andreeazamfir9713

3 жыл бұрын

The fact that he is easy to understand gives some the excuse to say his arguments are simplistic...see 'the stupid man's smart man' argument but they fail to admit that they heard it and understood it first from him. It's called telling you something you already know but you didn't know you knew it which is really hard to do. Such a shame.

@epicbehavior

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately any average person can’t understand it, because there’s a lot of people I see in the comment section saying that he’s avoiding and spewing nonsense. There’s probably an intuition/IQ threshold.

@JimJamJuicy

11 ай бұрын

He’s a very impressive mind

I have been watching the entire discussions. Really insightful and eye-opening. Thank you, JP!

I came, was like: who the heck watches 2h long videos...clicked 10 minutes into the video out of curiosity, watched until the end.

@donnysorrow3738

5 жыл бұрын

Won't be long until you will say "only 2 hours??? Wtf!!"

@jeffreymoffitt4070

5 жыл бұрын

That's more true than you know! I'm more fond of starting a audiobook on Monday at work and ending it on Friday!

@makermarx8862

5 жыл бұрын

Welcome, Bucko!

@dZorroIII

5 жыл бұрын

What a beautiful day when we are no longer fed information second hand from talking heads trying to sell their viewers to advertisers.

@discojohn8753

5 жыл бұрын

Listen to Jordan Peterson's lecture on the lion king, he compares the movie to Carl Jung's work its very intriguing.

Was an honor to be able to witness such a debate in person. Been following Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris for some time but it's a completely different story getting to experience such an intellectual conversation right in front of you. Definitely was a thought provoking night for me and for many others. Would love to see them speak in Dublin again some day.

@niallmartin9063

5 жыл бұрын

Adam Wynne, amen to that. Have loved big Sam since he first emerged, miss the Hitch big time. But Jordan has great ideas, no "religious" intellectual has been able to stay in room with the four horsemen (Dan Dennett, the Hitch, Richard Dawkins and big Sam). Just fascinating. I've always hated and despised the old testament until I listened to Jordan's lecture series. Douglas is really great too.

Peterson's is actually the more nuanced and sophisticated argument. Sam's ideas are really a no brainer and much easier to sell and to understand. It's woke level 1. Peterson has something an order of magnitude more sophisticated to say, so Sam's tactic is to conflate it with run of the mill religious dogma in order to pint it as something less than his own ideas, which is hardly the case. Because it deals with religious guise Harris is willing to throw out the bathwater although there might be, according to Peterson, a baby somewhere in there, which is reason enough not to be hasty or overconfident. Harris also said at the outset that this is not to be perceived as a debate, has throughout made some rather cheap shots and aimed for that applause break. Peterson came out better out of these debates than he went in, for me, which is not the case for Harris. In the last debate Harris said one very important thing which didn't quote get the attention it deserved in the heat of the moment, because it elegantly delineates the crux of their disagreement: he said that there are ontological facts and there are epistemological facts. Harris insist that whether or not our sensory and rational apparatus is able to process some ontological facts, they are still out there. Facts are facts, they exist regardless, which is basically an Objectivist world view that there IS a reality completely independent of any consciousness to experience it. Peterson is more concerned with the epistemological - what is the limit of our understanding and experience, which is the right approach to tackle Sam's hyper-rationalist world view: even our abstract thought about the ontological facts stems from our very limited biology and is therefore subject to epistemology. Our very idea that there is a world of facts independent of our capacity to process them is an idea borne out of a faulty and limited apparatus, very much epistemically influenced, limited and possibly completely wrong. Harris has no way around this that doesn't create a paradox.

@rossg9361

5 жыл бұрын

gavranarh the fellow in the middle pointed out something i’ve personally noticed, atheist parents fight to get their children into catholic schools, or more properly faith schools. Why! These schools teach values thousands of years old that the parents imagine they’ve abandoned in their search for Sam Harris type rationality.

@doubtit2815

5 жыл бұрын

@@rossg9361 Not all atheists are like Sam Harris.

@egovenari132

4 жыл бұрын

Bravo!

@257799nico

4 жыл бұрын

gavranarh brilliantly written

@seess8251

3 жыл бұрын

well, fuck now that I know this, what do I do with it?

Thank you for uploading this discussion, Dr. Peterson. Greetings from Ireland. :)

What Jordan is saying about an attempt to create a hierarchy of Gods in hinduism is absolutely true. I am a Hindu.

@wiptide

5 жыл бұрын

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Hinduism Brahma stand on top above all the other gods right?

@kjgoebel7098

5 жыл бұрын

And isn't it also true that Brahman is above even Brahma? As far as I've read, it perfectly illustrates what Dr. Peterson was saying about higher principles becoming abstract, because Brahman is supremely abstract, neuter and impersonal.

@srijanagrawal5124

5 жыл бұрын

At the top you could say is the trilogy of Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma but the oldest known evidence has been found of Shiva then Vishnu and then Brahma. Shiva is said to be the one destined to destroy the world when it gets corrupted and Vishnu is said to be the one to create a new world after all has been destroyed. So it's sort of like the order-chaos dynamic (this is my theory of course, I haven't read the holy texts yet.) What is interesting is that the universe is said to have been created by Vishnu out of Shiva, ie, before all, there was only Shiva and and Vishnu and nothing else and then Vishnu created the world out of Shiva, which is kind of parallel to God creating Order out of Chaos, in some sense. Brahma emerged later as the God with the common traits and neutral temperament and everybody who followed Brahma was called "Brahman" which is the temple-priest. It's akin to what Jordan says about the path between order and chaos being the path to the ultimate good because the Brahman was considered as the highest and noblest form of citizen. Of course this was corrupted later as the caste system became hereditary and the Brahmans started discriminating against other castes which is blatantly false because in the Vedas it is clearly written that deeds define caste and not blood. Anyway, the attempt to create a hierarchy is clear because there are many Gods in Hinduism, Indra-dev (God of Rain) Vaayu-dev (God if Wind) Agni-dev (God of fire)... And they all serve the trilogy at the top. The more prevalent narrative of the order chaos dynamic is Shiva and Shakti (His wife) which can be true as well as the oldest known deity is Shiva (about 4000 BC). All this sort of similarity is extremely fascinating and I want to study this more but don't get the time due to college and stuff. Maybe one day.

@marcohana4542

5 жыл бұрын

@@srijanagrawal5124 Thats some profound ideas right there

@bobbastian760

5 жыл бұрын

Yet still, none of those gods exist ;)

Speaking as someone who gets equal value from both of these guys, I do have to acknowledge the fundamentally different readiness to get outside of one‘s comfort zone. Where Sam generally tries to pull every argument down into preconceived "molds" and then hit home with some sort of oneliner (sometimes successfully), Jordan is much more ready to follow the discussion pretty much anywhere, even if it makes him and others uncomfortable. A pretty obvious area where this becomes clear is the different "stances" (sittings?) they assume on their respective chairs. They couldn‘t be much more different most of the time. Sam is basically completely static, while Jordan doesn‘t sit in that chair in the exact same way for more than a minute at a time.

@ryanm9563

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for explaining this so well

@chrisl2681

5 жыл бұрын

Hey Dave. Agreed. I've actually really grown tired of Harris' 'zingers'. I think he even leads the discussion so he can interject some wonder of wit that he came up with in his hotel room. He seems to definitely be very 'mold' oriented and not very adaptable in discussion; he's very out of his depth, but too absorbed in himself to honestly identify that he could really do with listening than thinking of the next short-sighted move. I'm ready for Jordan to do another series very similar to this with a true leading-light type - and Douglas Murray is a fine example. As for the sitting - Jordan has just TOO much to say/think/do to be stuck in a chair! : )

@CareFreeCommuting

5 жыл бұрын

davethetrousers I said this about part 2, and it just seems to be what keeps things interesting since Harris is playing the fundamentalist in this series.

@1fightdragons

5 жыл бұрын

Best comment I've read in a while. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

@BroughtToYouByPfizer

5 жыл бұрын

I really don't think Harris can understand abstract or other peoples point of view the same way Peterson can and that's why Weinstein had to jump in and explain it to Harris constantly. I used to like Harris but I can't anymore after hearing him tell a parent to lie to their child about determinism. People will say he was just joking but where was his actual explanation to what he would say to child about determinism.

It wasn't until Peterson talked about seasponges that i realized how genius Spongebob Squarepants is.

I don't know why, but I always get the feeling that Jordan likes Sam considerably more than the reverse.

@proscaffna

3 жыл бұрын

Sam is just arrogant. He likes himself more.

@norandomness

3 жыл бұрын

Jordan sees himself in Sam. Sam doesn't. It's really a directionality if self love

@paulbucklebuckle4921

3 жыл бұрын

Peterson is a people person .

@fraidafeltcher5188

3 жыл бұрын

harris is thinking about converting to christianity. so he's pissed

@IxDOYLERxI

3 жыл бұрын

@@fraidafeltcher5188 hahahahha

I was there. Got to meet all of them, was a really cool experience!

@brianpryor9624

5 жыл бұрын

was the sound that bad !

IMO, something that separates Peterson and Harris is that Peterson's point of view seems to evolve more than Harris's does with each of these discussions.

@audiorage82407

5 жыл бұрын

Could also imply that Harris isn't open minded

@olahfsmart3630

5 жыл бұрын

Phil Kesler No

@AnUtterMesh

5 жыл бұрын

@@philkesler Is Sam your god?

@squarerootof2

5 жыл бұрын

Sam is God and Jordan the Holy Spirit.

@bakavasa

5 жыл бұрын

@@philkesler Another comment of yours with generalisations. Provide specific examples of the 'sophistry' you claim because otherwise, if you can't argue it to specific points, your comment could well be about Harris's, and not Peterson's, sophistry. As for the gods thing, I assume you're not lying on the floor, waiting to die? Then you have 'gods'. Anything you believe to be above yourself that you're striving towards and you sacrifice for. That's just semantics.

I'm loving these talks. Very inspiring. We definitely need to see more of Murray at these events though.

1:53:35 you start from being naive -> betrayal makes you cynical, altough smart -> transcend cynism to trust still despite knowing the snake in us. This is something I think about quite often these days and it really strikes me as true wisdom that can apply to so many different things in life. One could honestly go so far as to say, this is the essential nature of humans humaning. It applies to true love, true teaching, true conversations, etc. We live in an era where alot of us have access to the brains of so many others, some more exposed and experienced such as the three we see in this video. We, the privileged many, should not waste too much time on who is right and wrong, but rather spend this valuable personal commodity on extracting things of true value from these videos. As Jordan eloquently put, the only way to elevate both of us, or in this case most human beings watching these videos, is : despite the flaws, the differences, and/or our disagreements, we can all transcend to the next level of cognition if we allow ourselves to really listen. Because if we really, sincerely listen to these fine gentlemen talk without our judgemental goggles, it is entirely possible to see this conversation not of merely 3 men, but a beautifully articulated collection of what we know and can know as human species. I have nothing but appreciation for the people involved into making this video happen. Much love.

@degecko

5 жыл бұрын

I loved that transcended cynicism explanation too, and I agree with you. Seems weird to me that so many people started talking badly about Dr. Peterson after the podcast with Sam Harris about truth. I mean, I know they didn't really reach a consensus, and people have the right to their opinion, but still, it doesn't seem to me like a situation in which we should pick a winner. There's a lot of information going around in these conversations, and if we learned to listen carefully, there'd be a lot to learn from them.

@OmegaGodBahamut

5 жыл бұрын

chu8 Peterson is so articulate with his ideas this time round, this was an absolute gem!

@chu8

5 жыл бұрын

@@OmegaGodBahamut ya man!!! he figured out how to resonate more to the masses, I love it.

@AnnaLVajda

4 жыл бұрын

Jordan should be reminded of the story of the person who finds a snake frozen brings it in nurses it only to be bitten and ask the snake how could you do this I saved you and now you have bitten me and I shall die and the snake responds stupid you knew I was a snake.

@user-vx1up7ty7z

4 жыл бұрын

@@AnnaLVajda Well that's why you don't trust a snake. You can, however, trust those who have a non-zero chance of being/becoming a snake. Both of you will come out ahead (albeit less than 100% of the time)

We have watched these individuals put forth great content, and now to have them on one stage together is historical. So great!

Watching now, so grateful for this! Really pleased you introduced Douglas and stated his importance in the discussion! Nice chairs btw.

Jordan Peterson is a hero

@gregoryforde7447

4 жыл бұрын

Indeed he his. My hope is that you'll be a blessing to many. All My Best to you & yours

@airdash_armadillo5072

3 жыл бұрын

And most importantly he's someone who along with these other gentlemen here promotes actual conversation and not shouting and name-calling

@MrPJFurey

3 жыл бұрын

He is at least my current one.

@Abo-xz5bs

3 жыл бұрын

Yes.

@timtrocke

3 жыл бұрын

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

The amount of comeradery, wit, intelligence, and playful interaction that’s on display here between these three gentlemen brings tears to my eyes, especially around after the halfway mark... How I wish more of the conversations that I encounter and continue were at this caliber-level of refinement, civility, and true mutual respect. What a privilege it is to get to be a part of this, even just as an observer. Much love from Norway.

@kathyborthwick6738

Жыл бұрын

Beautifully stated! This reminds me of my days at university! Upon occasion, the young people I chat with online take me back to these days as well! 👵🏽👋🏾🍃💚🍃🙏🏽

@sirriffsalot4158

Жыл бұрын

@@kathyborthwick6738 I envy you the experience, here's to more of that! Peace out.

@kathyborthwick6738

Жыл бұрын

@@sirriffsalot4158 Thank You 🍃🌺🍃🙏🏽🍃🌺🍃

I think the primary issue with Sam's argument is that he's constraining Dogma only within the religious context. A person can be dogmatic about anything. In the absence, or at least in the decline of, religion, we are seeing more and more secular dogmatism in the world of politics. Modern politics has it's own set of beliefs, ex-communication practices and it's own version of Mea Colpa and Hail Mary in the form of open public apologies for having the incorrect political viewpoint. All of the problems that Sam finds in Religion you *will* find in the surrounding secular environment.

@TheMinskyTerrorist

5 жыл бұрын

But it upsets Sam that someone somewhere might believe in the supernatural.

@hyperspacejester7377

5 жыл бұрын

"alternative facts" is a perfect example of that political dogmatism! Lol

@santiagopeschiera1743

5 жыл бұрын

Very well said. I find this to be a particularly important observation. Cheers!

@MrDarkstar620

5 жыл бұрын

Your exactly right. Peterson's observation and prudence to that is thanks to Nietzsche. The latter was the first to discover that a growth of secular atheism would lead to them retaining a context of metaphysics thought in their own thinking and perspective on directions of betterment for humanity. What happens is one usually finds nothingness after stripping themselves of a religious context and are pitted into nihilism, more than likely, but to not directly engage with that, in other words, seeing that life isn't a creation in a plausible sense, they fill that meaningless hole with what's fueled them prior. The unbelief in god doesn't do away with the earlier held dogma. It's tough, but many of these modern atheists are struggling with that. Jean Paul Sartre was another example. And to top it off, many on the left in the political sphere moralize in the same manner, some more radical than others. Harris is a toned down version of that, I would say. But his value on rationality, or has Peterson well-labelled early on, "abstract rationality", being grounded in a moral landscape hazes his judgement.

@MrBenchowmein

5 жыл бұрын

the internet increases dogmatism in politics moving the public's dogma to focus on the future path of civilizations and using this to make decisions about the present! your comment assumes either no positive progress or no interest in time (many years)?

Harris: * *derives values directly from facts* * Peterson: "Listen here, you absolute sponge"

@robbiekavanagh2802

5 жыл бұрын

@@philkesler I completely agree with that point, that it's possible to have objective knowledge of subjective phenomena. The most effective way of communicating and evolving that knowledge between generations is through stories. You didn't come up with all the morals you live by, by yourself, through reason. You learned them from watching others and through stories, fairytales, movies, books etc. (and religion, directly or indirectly). Also, try not to get so butthurt next time somebody makes a joke on the internet, it was a joke, not 'Peterson worship'.

@dZorroIII

5 жыл бұрын

@@philkesler All your arguments are zingers. It makes you come off as a douche whether right or wrong. Since being a douche is wrong, it doesn't do well for the case that facts alone lead to better people. Either you don't live by it, or you do and it's not very effective.

@BroughtToYouByPfizer

5 жыл бұрын

@@philkesler or pretend they are false without any proof or understanding of there meaning? Lol 😉

@butterflyfilms939

5 жыл бұрын

@@philkesler There is nothing to win here except for wisdom, the point of this is to understand each other arguments. There is point in saying that religious history was objectively very wrong, and there is also a point in trying to understand why this people did this so we could prevent us from doing so today and this old stories can be viewed without considering the source they came from, because simply saying that everything religious is bad is not only onesided but plain wrong.

@ericvandenhaas

5 жыл бұрын

@ Phil Kesler Truth comes in metaphors and stories.

Thank you for sharing this debate. The three are stimulating and thought-provoking.

Such a delight to be here listening to an intelligent, civil discourse and thoughtfull, appreciative audience.

"the dreams we dream are still christian dreams, weather we like it or not" that is fukin brilliant. Murray ftw

@slickdanger_

5 жыл бұрын

Sergiu Oltean yes but he was quoting someone else

@adammaginnis719

5 жыл бұрын

The dreams we dream are still the dreams of humanity of which is our own making whether we like it or not interesting Christian or not I do like that quote from my own perspective with respect to those of others.

@crazedscot4248

5 жыл бұрын

Whether

@JesusHComedy

5 жыл бұрын

If that’s true: I wonder wet the biblical equivalent of the “ tooth falling out “dream is

@inner_luz222

5 жыл бұрын

Aren't what are 'Christian dreams' 'human dreams,' given that humanity preceded Christianity? This, I think, is the argument that Dr. Peterson indirectly makes, through the lens of Jung and his identified archetypes. From a secular standpoint, the symbols of dreams stem from the psyche, and manifests ultimately through culture, including Christianity. Neutrally said, it is short-sighted to cite Christianity as the root of our dreams, especially given that historically there are parallels between civilizations that have no direct influence on each other- shared dreams independent of Christianity. It could've been given any other name- Mayan, Chinese, Egyptian, etc. But, here, Christianity is at the forefront of focus.

Excellent debate. Thank you so much for sharing this video, sir.

For so many reasons, fantastic. Said last discussion, "damn, 2 hours is a long time, well, I am interested, so why not?" This time, "damn, only 2 hours? They wont get to near enough topics!"

I have honestly and literally read every single book published by both of these men. I love them both. There is no "winner" or whatever. We, watching this, gain by being able to navigate both sides. No matter if you are here because of Jordan or because of Sam, you are already my friend.

Jordan toward the end was absolutly stellar. Although i thought (and i was frustrated by that) that he was’t too clear in the first two debates, he absolutly blew it on this one. This is the jordan peterson we want to hear. I am also impressed by douglas murray, who s very intellignet, and sal harris is as usual, very competent and decent, but he lacks the depth and revolutionary ideas of jordan.

@niallmartin9063

5 жыл бұрын

Smug Prout Sam has been searching for objective truth for a long time. His books are clear, logical and calmly argued. He's spot on about Islam, Trump, cults and many other things. There's been no one like Jordan Peterson to argue coherently back with Sam, Dawkins, the Hitch and Dan Dennett. That's why it's a captivating exchange. Poor Jordan can be wounded in a debate (remember the "angry white man" jibe at the munk debate, despicable), but Sam tries to play fair. There's goodwill on the intellectual dark web

@smugprout5698

5 жыл бұрын

Yes Sam as a philosopher is very consitant and rigourous and precise, which is why I think he cleraly « won » the first two debats, even though I like jordan peterson s argument a bit more, because sam with his very precise and concise thinking can point out to things jordan cant, and jordan doesnt really debate that well on the topics of religion even though his maps of meaning is stunning, so yeah, that was a really good debate

@gggrow

5 жыл бұрын

"he absolutly blew it on this one" I don't think that means what you think that means

@xelit3xpankakezx

5 жыл бұрын

Blasted it? per se XD

@squarerootof2

5 жыл бұрын

"he absolutly nailed it on this one", or, "he was spot-on on this one", would be more appropriate.

27:18 jordan just made my day there, he's such a gem. May God bless him always :-)

crowd claps whenever they hear a word they recognize

@coolbeanstu

3 жыл бұрын

Lollllll

The well articulated golden words that has been developed, re-articulated and rethought from Jordan are nothing but enrichment to the mind and knowledge. many thanks to you guys. a very excellent discussion.

For anyone who was at this talk... Does anyone remember the "sex robot guy" before the show started? He was at the stage and was asked "what would you like to hear being discussed and by whom?" He wanted to hear their opinions on "what roles women would have, in an age of sex-robots." When the audience started laughing, he shouted through the mic *I shall not be mocked* ! It was comedy gold! 😂

@eltyo340

5 жыл бұрын

haha damnit I want to see that clip if anybody filmed it xD

@chadherrmann

5 жыл бұрын

Sven Computer?

It’s about damn time

@JohnnyRockermeier

5 жыл бұрын

1. Go to www. JORISM . com to see the booklet, that I gave to Sam Jordan and Douglas 2. Watch the videos, there is way way more to come. Jordan was touched by the supernatural, and that is a objectiv Fact. It's about the 3 and the 27. www JORISM com. p.s. have you read the boklet Jordan? This is not a joke, look at the date that you first uploaded the Bill C-16 Video!

非常深刻的討論，thanks for you guys 👍

Please don’t tell me you are going to stop at 4! I’ve listened to all 4 at least 6 times each now, need more!!!

Think how lucky we all are to live in a time where we can just watch a debate like this for free, at home.

@duncankeary6767

Жыл бұрын

Whilst I agree with you, the Scottish in me is getting really angry at the number of ads 🤣🤣

Sometimes in life, you find out everything you believe in was wrong. It's difficult to step outside your belief structure which had served you for your entire life

@nobilisartorivs

5 жыл бұрын

@The Prickly Prick only if you don't understand both

@awesomo845

5 жыл бұрын

If your belief system served you well then that implies the system isn't total bogus.

@zonunralte4742

5 жыл бұрын

If It had served you your entire life, maybe there was some truth about it that we humans are too limited to figure out...

@detrean

5 жыл бұрын

I was a new atheist for 10 years. Now I am a traditional Catholic. It is very hard to reject something that you have made your core but it is also exciting.

@johnmarasigan8696

5 жыл бұрын

@@detrean I'd like to hear your story.

Love these talks. Thanks for doing them

So refreshing to see a proper adult conversation with people expressing their ideas and trying to increase their own understanding. Thank you

I think Peterson is so deep it's almost incomprehensible, that's why Sam and Jordan struggle to agree on this subject. Sam seems to stay along the surface while Jordan is trying to save his father from the belly of the beast below it.

@marianquinlan8707

5 жыл бұрын

Con Jordan uses reason coupled w Truth. Harris seems like he’s a bit obstinate; perhaps hiding behind his atheism? He’s absolutely no match for Jordan’s reasoning and brilliance.

@Bruhaha9

4 жыл бұрын

Not at all. Sam let him talk because why not. Then he would say something that would cover the roots of what Peterson was saying. Peterson is also deep, yes.

@michawill6599

4 жыл бұрын

You think this is deep? Listen to some of the podcasts on Unbelievable? Particularly in the Justin Brierley and Alex Scott.

@jamesrawlings5781

4 жыл бұрын

I'd say he's so incomprehensible he sounds deep.

@LuckysLair

4 жыл бұрын

YES !

The sponge thing that peterson says is so goddamn good it's fucking amazing

@hartwaer

4 жыл бұрын

Yes. That whole train of thought was so well articulated. Peterson truly knows how to teach.

@modmediaproductions9407

4 жыл бұрын

it is right...but damn we geta so Carried away by his amazing exponency ..but is a sort of distraction

@puffpasslogic729

4 жыл бұрын

So much of what he says is. He’s turned the lives of thousands around with his extreme talent powered by an intense drive to do the utmost good with his time on this earth showing us all how to better view the world to make our biggest impact and live the least painful life possible. That’s something we all strive to do in our lives and few of us manage it. He’s a true historic prophetic intellectual living in our time. He is what will make the years we are living in relevant throughout history. He is our Plato.

@baltzarbonbeck3559

3 жыл бұрын

@@modmediaproductions9407 People like you write in a way to sound smart rather than being smart, please be quiet

I'm just glad we are in a place where these conversations can take place. I'm in my first year now and my biggest let down (i'm 26 as a first year) is that I can't tackle anywhere near the level of conversation here or what I have had with my grandparents yet. I hope we can bring this back. I'm not ripping on my friends, but you really notice it in the art students who are mixed in a lot with science in first year. Very different mentalities. I love JP but he almost comes at me as a more artsy person and I prefer it to Sam Harris despite his very well placed argument. I've never listened to Sam before. It's just so interesting to find myself not sure where I sit listening to these two hash out their ideas.

Sam’s arrogance belies his intellect. Jordan’s humility undercuts his intellect. Douglas’ patience reveals his intellect.

@iscomusique3329

2 жыл бұрын

HAHAHAHAHA

@sebastianfustermartorell2908

2 жыл бұрын

As much as I admire Mr.Peterson,he should please let other people speak too.Poor Douglas.He didnt let him finish one single argument.

That lil knee touch at 27:17 was so graceful, it made my morning

I was there that night. Incredible stuff and extremely encouraging that size of a crowd came along in my country.

@NecronPhobos

5 жыл бұрын

Agreed me and 2 friends drove down from Belfast to see this was well worth it.

@stephenpoole6415

5 жыл бұрын

We drove from Cork.

@shiskeyoffles

5 жыл бұрын

Wow.. what was the tickets price?

It was a beautiful balmy evening in Dublin, not so common 😍and I was so proud of all the young Irish people who turned up in such numbers. I’m in my seventies and loved every minute of this.

I think that's their best one yet. The variety and depth of topics was delicious.

I don't think I've ever seen Peterson as sharp as this. Full throttle. Edit: Acutally all 3 were great in this one. Murray was a great addition and the overall spirit in this conversation was great.

27:17 is such a great moment. It makes me happy to see them obviously bring nothing but good will to the table.

This was the most interesting conversation I’ve ever seen. Peterson has never been so certain of his ideas and I find a deep resonance in them, archetypal to use one of his favourite words. I find Harris’ rational and intellect to be razor sharp and capable of dissection as ever. I will have to watch this over again for sure.

I'm loving this. The idea of "steelmaning" your opponent's view is such a refreshing change. I haven't the intellect to conceptualize a winner... I know it's not meant as a contest. Clearly it is to many though as indicated by many of the comments. I'm on Sams side as far as my disdain for anything supernatural. I think he's definitely the right man to take the stance he does and he is really quick to force clarification on the important points. How Jordan glides through deep aspects of the conscious landscape is incredibly thought provoking for me, and for the parts I understand it's an exhilarating journey... Simply more input please.👍

I'm a Hindu, by birth. and even Hinduism has a hierarchy of Gods. Brahma (creator), Vishnu(preserver) and Shiva (destroyer) form the Holy Trinity. And it's a deep idea in Hinduism, that they are all forms of the same force. So, yes, all major religions today do in fact tend towards monotheistic ideals, in subtly different ways.

@chrisv.noire.6388

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. Hinduism is in its essence monotheist, and what people call other gods in it are in fact characteristics of Brahma, who are such powerful expressions of Brahama's character that to truly understand them, they are represented by an avatar, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh, Cali etc are just avatars, particular manifestations of the characteristics of the same spirit given to give greater understanding of the mystery of Brahma pictorially because humans have always used art, pictures, sculptures to embody many truths. A picture is worth a thousand words.

@paulbucklebuckle4921

3 жыл бұрын

All the world's big religions come from Asia , Hindu , Buddhism, Christian Jew , Muslim , and now the new messiah is Canadian 😎👌🏿😎

@NoWayButYHWH

3 жыл бұрын

I’m glad you commented this. That’s how I understood Hinduism, so I was bothered that Sam used it to make his point and it was never refuted.

Their approaches in the simplest terms might be if you ask them to write down 'pi'. Sam Harris, all about facts, starts diligently: 3,14....... etc etc etc.Jordan Peterson: well, wait a minute, for so many digits for a fixed number, can't we use a symbol, like let's say the greek letter for 'pi'? You can even push the analogy further if you wish: -Sam's objection: some people might misinterpret that symbol or abuse its meaning-Jordan's retort: well, try and make the masses memorize all the digits, lol There is some truth in the archetypes Jordan often speaks about and it's less obvious than the 'pi' example, and the good part is that almost everyone can understand the archetypes but most people will get lost in Sam Harris' pile of cold hard facts. The human brain is not a binary computer that stores letter by letter. It stores in images, associations, memes even. The archetypes fall in the latter category while the cold hard facts don't. On top of that, my main gripe with anti-theists is that they haven't figured out yet how to create a cohesive godless society, especially not someone like Sam Harris. There is a real challenge to try not to replace religion with some other ideology. The argument could be made that several ideologies already have in some way adopted the role of religion for many people. A case could be made for the 'progressives', the feminists of today, especially the intersectional variety. Both will try and 'burn' people who oppose any of their views as heretics.

@TheDallasDwayne

5 жыл бұрын

Bro, that is an EXCELLENT way of breaking it down.

@Nelgrim

5 жыл бұрын

This is quite a brilliant analogy

@SirSpence99

5 жыл бұрын

One major distinction though. Sam would say because people can misunderstand (or misuse) the symbol for pi, it is therefore bad and should never be used. Peterson then says, "well, what should we replace it with?" Sam starts listing out the digits of pi. Peterson stops him and says, "surely that can be simplified so that the masses can understand it?" Sam then says, "But then it isn't accurate enough!"

@eliaxxz5360

5 жыл бұрын

Excellent way to put it

@Thisisahandle701

5 жыл бұрын

"the masses are too dumb for facts, roll on the bedtime stories". I'm not even questioning the validity of such an opinion, but that's the upshot of J-piddy's narrative.

My “God”, these are incredible conversations between two (or three) real thinkers. Thank you so much.

Thank you for posting this extraordinary discussion

The Boys Are Back In Town...(That song should be the intro for this vid :) A very interesting debate, indeed. Good stuff Boys.

Its not obvious, roughly speaking.

@pineapplaplatypotamus

5 жыл бұрын

It's roughly obvious, not speaking

@FHBStudio

5 жыл бұрын

It's not so obvious, roughly speaking, AND IT GETS WORSE!

@jazz7581

5 жыл бұрын

As far as you're concerned or?

@fastandfurry9513

5 жыл бұрын

@@jazz7581 In my estimation, I would say yes

@ribby9069

5 жыл бұрын

Reprogramming Mind I would say the devils in the details

Great discussion, thanks for the upload.

dublin london vancouver ..all four events...beside the late public release just beyond great and so much more than i wished for when i began asking you both to consider a talk together and also so much better than the first encounter between you two^^ thank you jordan for your contribution to the wellbeing of this world and future generations :)

Another great one, fellas. Keep it up!

@JohnnyRockermeier

5 жыл бұрын

1. Go to www. JORISM . com to see the booklet, that I gave to Sam Jordan and Douglas 2. Watch the videos, there is way way more to come. Jordan was touched by the supernatural, and that is a objectiv Fact. It's about the 3 and the 27. www JORISM com. p.s. have you read the boklet Jordan? This is not a joke, look at the date that you first uploaded the Bill C-16 Video!

" Sam, we are afraid that the Christisnity might be essential to the foundation to our way of life, but perhaps you are afraid of Jesus smuggling" Sam: "so I saw a guy with Tarot cards the other day"

@kenjo3045

5 жыл бұрын

Oh, Christianity and no other religion? Sounds like a we're right but everyone else is wrong argument.

@oterdverg

5 жыл бұрын

@@kenjo3045 ...and? Have you not noticed that the West is the best?

@kenjo3045

5 жыл бұрын

@@oterdvergYou must not know your world history very well. We are just the latest power soon to be replaced by Asia lead by China. So are we to believe then that Bhuddism and Taoism is superior? Isn't it also true that when the West was in its most religious phase we were in the dark ages? That's a pretty foolish argument.

@oterdverg

5 жыл бұрын

You're making premature conclusions, you're arrogant and you're either lazy or a bad thinker because: 1) The West is the best, and you didn't take the question to what degree christianity is responsible for that success seriously. 2) The dark ages might as well be a part of a process. One argument is "christian emphasis on truth + christian emphasis on hard work and humility + time = the enlightenment, modern science and the industrial revolution". 3) If the East surpasses the West with regards to truth and morality, that could even support the idea that christianity was an important ingredient in the western success story, because the East only got the upper hand once christianity was undermined. 4) We are not "just the latest power", we're the ones who came up with modern science, the industrial revolution and individual freedom (we even ended slavery). That's unique, universally good and something fundamentally different from other civilizations that have ruled before us.

@erikarice6859

5 жыл бұрын

Justin Bauk Harris makes the millenials mantra argument, I am here now and I know better, so there is no need to respect, revere, or heed anything that came before my ideas and influences. If you do not learn from the past you are destined to repeat it. Harris is too dismissive without really doing the intellectual work of disproving himself first.

This might be the most valuable discussions of the 21st century.

I thought this debate was most productive out of all 4, thanks Jordan for sharing it.

Sam asked for an example of how pure rationality can go horribly wrong. I have an easy one. Politics, particularly with regards to argumentation. Facts are not compelling to most people. If your rationality comes up against an emotional appeal of sufficient strength, all the rationality in the world won't do a goddamn thing. For the Platonic example of this, see Bret Weinstein trying to talk sense to an angry mob of left wing students.

What a line up adding murray to mix its an intellectual dream team

@briankaul1201

5 жыл бұрын

word

Excellent! It might be productive to drag a popular mainstream media figure into a long form conversation like this with the 3 of you. I imagine a lot of great things would come from that. Bringing them to your turf would be much more productive than what inevitably happens when you go to theirs.

I just can't believe how good this discussion is.

Jordan is much more invested and interested in this conversation. You can see it from his body posture.

My best friend killed himself this year. I was trying to convey Peterson's ideas to him and he took a stance that was a blend of Harris and nihillism. I feel that if I had been more intellectually capable than I am I may have been able to change his mind. Our discussion mirrored the one between Harris and Peterson in many ways. This is important, at least to me and I think thats reflected in the reception this has received. In some cases this discussion is life or death. At least it was to me and my friend.

@rjd53

5 жыл бұрын

Same thing with me and a friend of mine, who is always talking about killing himself, but fortunately did not do it (I hope I won't have to add "yet"). We are discussing the same things you are naming in your comment for years and don't get any closer. - I strongly recomment you read Cormac McCarthy's "Sunset Limited". It is not a novel but a dialogue between a nihilist who was about to throw himself under the subway train and a religious person who pulled him away and thus saved his life. They discuss for a long time - and in the end the nihilist is not convinced and walks back to the subway station to repeat his suicide. . .

@robertvalentine1406

5 жыл бұрын

@@rjd53 My friend was autistic and wicked smart which made things hard. I'm trying to think of anything I can see in hindsight which might help you and I'm coming up blank. Maybe bring him the self authoring suite? I find nihilistic people feel that way because they've forsaken their goals or their goals are too far away. Try to help him create some goals he can feasibly achieve and then maybe once he's reached a few his faith may be renewed and a discussion could be more productive

@Natural_law_lawyer

3 жыл бұрын

@@rjd53 its a movie as well with Tommy lee jones and Sam Jackson if you didnt know.

1:17:14 what an inspiration. The discussion from this point on was extremely useful, pragmatic, and eye-opening for me personally. So happy Sam posed that question

This is my favorite discussion of the four parts

"To understand our civilisation, one must appreciate that the extended order resulted not from human design or intention but spontaneously: it arose from unintentionally conforming to certain traditional and largely moral practices, many of which men tend to dislike, whose significance they usually fail to understand, whose validity they cannot prove, and which have nonetheless fairly rapidly spread by means of an evolutionary selection - the comparative increase of population and wealth - of those groups that happened to follow them. The unwitting, reluctant, even painful adoption of these practices kept these groups together, increased their access to valuable information of all sorts, and enabled them to be 'fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it' (Genesis 1:28). This process is perhaps the least appreciated facet of human evolution." -F.A Hayek.

@listener523

5 жыл бұрын

Excellent quote. I think I'm going to steal that for a critique I am writing on the approach Evonomics is taking to capitalism.

@Max-nc4zn

5 жыл бұрын

"The fact that socialism is a logical result of rationalism, does not prove that socialism is right, but rather, that rationalism is wrong." -F.A. Hayek. Veganism is also a logical result of rationalism, and socialism is cannibalism, so rationalism is self contradictory.

@Uberrheogenic

5 жыл бұрын

How is veganism a logical result of rationalism? It seems grounded not in reason, but in emotion, and all rationalization appears to be post hoc confirmation bias. It lies about nutrition science―why is Alan Aragon not vegan?―and makes several assumptions about morality. The logical conclusion of finding factory farming horrible is to boycott factory farming. Not to become a mouthpiece for an ideology that proscribes ALL animal products, that simply does not follow. If chickens are mistreated, why should I stop eating oysters?

@Max-nc4zn

5 жыл бұрын

Soy is murder.

@dfiala9890

5 жыл бұрын

@@Max-nc4zn wins the thread.

This one was SO good! Loved the elaboration of the biological argument.

I think as interesting as the original discussion is, the second part after 1:16:00 is even better imo. Admittedly the steelmanning was not that great and scattered, but the attempt and what comes out of it brings so many more nuances to the discussion that it is simply glorious. Thanks to all three of them for having it.

@percussionnow5982

Жыл бұрын

The steel man was definitely the best part, although Sam did a better Job of steel manning because he has done this for about three times as ling as Peterson and has a really good idea of the point he is fighting, Peterson who clearly doesn’t believe in an actual God had trouble summing Sams side not because he couldn’t but because he had to avoid annoying his followers who are Jesus Smugglers and puts his foot in his mouth by saying the “dumber thinkers should be conservative because you become a sheep and it helps if you are stupid”

Once again you are my hero. In general, but also because I really really can't afford to financially support the Waking Up podcast right now but I really really wanted to hear these discussions. That suit is snazzy as hell, by the way. And Sam's looking sharp too. God, I love philosophers' fashion sense.

If reality was just a bunch of facts, then we wouldn’t need emotions

@sisyphus645

3 жыл бұрын

Emotions are facts as well. It's the interpretation of these emotions that kill the vibe. "Oh this overwhelming feeling must mean x, y and z" outside the sciences mean little to no objective value. Plus, without emotions you wouldn't be able to distinguish between almost everything. So it's biologically linked.

@anubistv1154

3 жыл бұрын

@@sisyphus645 Emotions are definitely not facts. They are the fluctuations of one's state of mind, something that will likely never be duplicated in AI.

@sisyphus645

3 жыл бұрын

@@anubistv1154 What an extremely naïve thing to say

@m74d3

3 жыл бұрын

@@anubistv1154 of course emotions are facts. Sadness is a fact, happiness is a fact. That these are both brain states is indeed a fact. People can vary to some degree in what makes them sadder or happier, but obviously sadness and happiness are facts about the human brain. Obviously

@anubistv1154

3 жыл бұрын

@@m74d3 For all you morons: Fact = "a thing that is known or proved to be true." The notion that humans feel sadness and happiness is a fact. But the fear or anxiety you feel at any given moment is not a FACT. It is most certainly true, and may or may not be valid or appropriate for the moment, but not a fact. Our emotions while we experience them are nebulous and cannot be measured. They cannot be verified by others. Now you can stop making the FACT that you are idiots known.

1:11:55 is one of my favourite moments from this discussion.

My favorite part of the debate so far: 27:18

i loved this, can we get more events of this kind

I really enjoyed watching this. I especially found the discussion on borders to be fascinating.

I see you fellas have sorted out Pangburn. Good job!

@JohnnyRockermeier

5 жыл бұрын

1. Go to www. JORISM . com to see the booklet, that I gave to Sam Jordan and Douglas 2. Watch the videos, there is way way more to come. Jordan was touched by the supernatural, and that is a objectiv Fact. It's about the 3 and the 27. www JORISM com. p.s. have you read the boklet Jordan? This is not a joke, look at the date that you first uploaded the Bill C-16 Video!

@chadherrmann

5 жыл бұрын

@@JohnnyRockermeier was this supposed to be a stand-alone comment?

@HL-iw1du

5 жыл бұрын

Chad Herrmann It’s been posted on other comment threads on this video. It’s probably a bot.

Peterson’s hand movements are smarter than me.