"Yes, Do as I say" added fuel to the fire here. From Linus's POV, he asked the system to install Steam. So, "Yes, Do as I say" meant "Yes, Install Steam" and not "Yes, nuke my PC" to Linus.

@deidyomega

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the warning should be, "Yes, Break My Computer". Linux SysAdmins, who know exactly what they are doing will giggle, and keep going, newbies will def stop at that point.

@samiraperi467

2 жыл бұрын

Linus kinda sucks at reading the screen.

@jeanschyso

2 жыл бұрын

@@samiraperi467 the screen is horrible at giving information, so that makes sense.

@xrobertcmx

2 жыл бұрын

How did he have sound issues? On Manjaro? Had issues with an old Sound blaster, but these days it just works.

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

This could be a translation issue, Linux development is multi-national. In some cultures "Yes, do as I say." will carry much more meaning.

simply changing the text color of critical messages like something important gonna be uninstalled would do A LOT for improving the user experience

@aaronchamberlain4698

2 жыл бұрын

They actually already merged a patch that won’t allow core packages to be uninstalled and will just say “This command would have broken your system so it wasn’t executed.” You can override that behavior by just doing a touch to a specific file that will allow apt to cause breaking changes.

@vampiresRsolame

2 жыл бұрын

I mean they can make the message pink and blue but the main issue I see is it says "warning: a whole bunch of tech gobbledegook nobody that isn't a Linux nerd would ever understand will happen"

@Vrtox1337

2 жыл бұрын

@@vampiresRsolame but what's the alternative? The package names are already becoming more descriptive and it listed all the packages it removes and lists that they are essential. And yeah they should make it more colorful and format it better so that you can skim through it more easily but I think the message itself was really self explanatory.

@mskiptr

2 жыл бұрын

Tbh, changing "Yes, do as I say" into "Yes, break my system" would probably be sufficient

@joschafinger126

2 жыл бұрын

On the other hand, being asked to type a whole sentence in plain English, including punctuation, would definitely make all my alarm bells go off like crazy. Still, the colour thing is a good idea.

I'm a bit disappointed there isn't an extra section at the end of every episode where Anthony would explain what went wrong and why, I think that would be really useful for the non-Linux users who are watching the video and scared of switching now

@MLGaeming

2 жыл бұрын

@@the_john19 I absolutely think it would - mistakes are the best way to learn, so just showing the mistake parts without the learning parts takes that out of it. To be clear, this would not excuse the design of the package manager, it would just give more useful insight into what actually happened.

@WarLordN1k

2 жыл бұрын

nerd i should have known you would be here

@altrogeruvah

2 жыл бұрын

That is a great idea I think

@l4kr

2 жыл бұрын

Thats what Linux channels are for.

@annekedebruyn7797

2 жыл бұрын

I think that they are already secretly looking into a Linux related show with Anthony. Linus already acknowledged that the community has wanted it for a while. Maybe that they will do an 'Anthony reacts' type of video later or better yet, an entire linux related series.

8:46 "It not hard if you know how to do it" Yeah, that applies for everything, that's what "knowing" is. Linux users have a hard time seeing things from noobs perspective.

@davguev

2 жыл бұрын

When he said that, it made me roll my eyes and laugh a bit.

@20teverify

2 жыл бұрын

Not really. The phrasing is weird, but I got what he meant. It isn't hard onto itself, but not knowing what to know makes it challenging for beginners. Once you know it should be fine, unlike many other things that keep being hard even we you know: calculus, launching a rocket, having a functional relationship :'(

@user-sw1wq8lh2w

2 жыл бұрын

He means simplicity, vs easily intuitive. Also, on Debian or Ubuntu it's super easy. I managed to do it with a single KZread video, 5 minutes of reading the Arch Wiki and two packages with a single line of commands in the terminal. `sudo pacman -S nvidia nvidia-utils`, done. Now if you mean configuring Optimus it's slightly more difficult, another 10 mintues of youtube, another 2-3 pages of wiki reading for another 10 minutes, and like 3 commands.

@davguev

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-sw1wq8lh2w Yup. Installing the Nvidia drivers might be easy, but configuring Optimus and PRIME isn't something your average user wants to do, and we're talking about users that want everything or close to everything working right away, and that's why I'm loving Zorin.

@wout4yt

2 жыл бұрын

He made switching to linux even less attractive.

"If you're brand new to Linux, go with what makes sense to you" This kind of thinking is why many newcomers/beginners will just stay away from Linux.

@FlameSoulis

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. I'm not a full Linux guru, but I've done my make -j4, my various installations (DE and server), apts/yums/zyppers, and cried at the GRUB screen when I have to tweak something. There are so many flavors of even the distros themselves, which is a big problem. People want simplicity, and that's why we still joke about "Choose a Vista". Linux distros shouldn't be the same damn thing.

@zappy7393

2 жыл бұрын

100%...Linux devs and users need a good lesson in Operations and Service Management...

@gohan7104

2 жыл бұрын

i really really hate how these people act like its just something to pick up. i dont understand the wierd gatekeeping mentality this community. imagine if apple or windows had this issue? be all over the internet but instead with this we get 100 different reactions to this issue and instead "well learn how to read better". its not the consumer's fault, especially for a distro that thrives on begginer friendly.

@deidyomega

2 жыл бұрын

"If you're brand new to Linux, go with what makes sense to you" -> Great, I went with something that makes sense to me, i switched to... windows 10. X_x yeah the whole statement is useless. Linux wont make sense until you start using it.

@alexwr

2 жыл бұрын

I never understood the 'go with what makes sense to you' line of reasoning. It's like learning a new language, there has to be guidance first, because without that, we would understand absolutely nothing. MacOS and Windows are like comparing Spanish and Portuguese. Definitely separate languages, but share many similarities. Linux, in this example, is Mandarin. Many people have time to learn a few keyboard shortcuts, they probably don't have the time to learn a whole new OS with a whole different style of operation with completely different software that often requires you to DIY a fix with the possibility of breaking everything. Linux, and it's open nature is fantastic, but desktop Linux for newbies is far from ready. We can't all be going through forums to try and figure out something that would have worked perfectly on our old OS.

"As a new Linux user, go with what makes sense to you." Logically, would a completely new Linux user know what common sense even is, in the context of a Linux distro? What makes sense to a normal Linux user might not make sense to someone completely new to it, just like what makes sense to your normal IT guy can be something that's super scary and mortifying to an average user. What the new guy really needs is a complete, unified guide to help them along with the adoption.

@smievil

2 жыл бұрын

feel like google just sends you to whatever ad-filled article it can nowadays, which might not be helpful, not really a linux issue.

@imzesok

2 жыл бұрын

@@smievil I personally stopped using google for web searches ages ago. the first two pages are nothing but ads, and 3 more pages in are just whomever paid the highest amount to be listed first, and then 2 or 3 more pages in you'll start finding anything remotely relevant. it's duckduckgo for me. first result is either an ad or the official site for the product most of the time if not the thing you're looking for, usually within the first 5 results, which is how it should be, and how google USED to be .

@Max128ping

2 жыл бұрын

As someone who uses windows for so long and a bit of Linux What make sense to Windows user is not what make sense to Linux users For windows user, worse case installing software without updating after fresh install is that the app won't run at all and saying it missing .DLLs . Or even a kernel panic or just a warning that you have outdated dependancy or some Shiz. ..that's obviously not the case for Linux

@robonator2945

Жыл бұрын

distrochooser is honestly really good for this sort of thing. It's not perfect, but it's certainly a good start.

Funniest part of these reaction videos to Linux challenge is seeing how Linux people react to Linus typing "Yes, do as I say" into the command line.

I do get a kick that they made the joke about deleting system 32 and then linus does the Linux equivalent.

@pabloschool2610

2 жыл бұрын

lmao

@defeqel6537

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed, though what Linus did was recoverable.

@DonkeyKong68

2 жыл бұрын

@@defeqel6537 for many regular users if you can't see GUI or mouse cursor it is completely broken

@mariohawat

2 жыл бұрын

linus deleted system76

@pyrotempestwing

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariohawat That was funnier than it had any right to be. lol

“It is not that difficult. It is just a matter of knowing how to do it.” The biggest LOL for a long time. Oh, nothing in the human experience is actually difficult… when you think about it that way.

@BackfeetBoi

Жыл бұрын

Yeah had the same thought xD Everything is easy in hindsight

@XantoS771

Жыл бұрын

Just Linux cucks coping really hard while the Windows chads are getting all the hoes. Since version 3.0, too ! lol

@BackfeetBoi

Жыл бұрын

@@XantoS771 Not reallx what I meant. Imho while I dislike these things in Linux I despise Windows with it's bloat even more

@madladdie7069

Жыл бұрын

Nah, a lot of things can still be difficult when you know how. Like learning a language for example. You might know exactly how to do it but it'll still be extremely time consuming.

@nicolaim4275

Жыл бұрын

Turning on a television is hard if you don't know what a power plug is. If all you need in order to understand something is a simple sentence, then Gardiner's comment would apply.

im really glad linux like this is getting this kind of exposure. this is the kind of feed back the linux devs need to address theses kinds of issues

@naicolas

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. And Finally. I hope there will be many UX designers raging and contributing to making "radical" changes for the better so that people would Finally give Linux a go as a valid replacement for Windows or macOS.

@Masda.X

2 жыл бұрын

It is free project and devs are not enthusiastic enough to respond quickly regarding fixation.

@mecrumbly429___4

2 жыл бұрын

@@Masda.X tf man they fixed the steam issue after one single day. imagine how long it would take if windows had an issue like this

@4everzapy

2 жыл бұрын

@@mecrumbly429___4 because they were in the networks literally dying of laughter, if you think that they always make changes so fast, you are more naive than I think

@mecrumbly429___4

2 жыл бұрын

@@4everzapy Tell me about how quick patches for Windows come on average.

The bug Linus experienced was super unfortunate. Jeremy and a few other system76 people have answered what the issue was. For less than 24 hours, they had pushed a broken build of steam to the apt repo. Steam is still 32bit and one of the launchpad libs was missing, so apt thought that it needed to downgrade to get a version compatible with that lib. HOWEVER, that also made all the gnome desktop stuff incompatible and marked for removal. So Linus just picked the wrong day to try this basically. They also already merged a change that won’t let a user break their system (using apt). There is no prompt and it will just say “This command would have broken your system so it was not executed.”

@HDSQ

2 жыл бұрын

It's great to see fixes getting implemented to prevent those errors from happening again - that's the only way that Linux will get better for everyone. I recognised what was going to happen only because I've used Linux for a year or so, but if you're expected to have a year of Linux experience to use Linux how is anyone going to learn to use it? I'm so excited to see how Linux will improve from all of this real-world first-time user testing.

@thelookofdisapproval8234

2 жыл бұрын

@@onee1594 AFAIK PopOS is not a rolling release distro. Manjaro is a rolling release distro. his computer got bricked in a stable released PopOS, but not on Manjaro, where I would expect one to break their system easily

@onee1594

2 жыл бұрын

@@thelookofdisapproval8234 sorry. Somehow I thought it was arch based (thanks for keeping an eye it's Ubuntu). In that case system76 really screwed up in really bad time.

@aaronchamberlain4698

2 жыл бұрын

@Akitake Actually that’s the one I’m mystified by as well. Jeremy also said they have a testing framework configured on all launchpad and pop based packages so somehow it slipped through the cracks.

@bnielsen1965

2 жыл бұрын

Not defending apt's voluminous feedback but, didn't the GUI installer prevent this new linux user from trashing their system? And where did he find an answer to the GUI installer error for Steam that said to open a terminal and force the install on the command line, was it a troll post? There are definitely areas in each linux distro that need polish but I would be very concerned with changes that are put in place to protect new users by preventing experienced users from using linux as was originally intended.

8:45 You just said the number one thing that stops new people from using linux. The "It's not that difficult, it's just knowing how to do it" mind set stops a lot of people dead in their tracks. It's part of the reason why I'm not a Linux user. I tried a couple of times before, progressed to various point, and had to give up. Once I got past the research phase for a distro, looked up a guide, hit a road block, found out the guide I used was outdated despite not being that old, asked for help, and got a lot of "It's not that hard" attitude without solutions. I still plan on giving it another shot some day, but if past is prologue I doubt I will fare much better. Especially given the reaction I am seeing the videos Linus is making. He's exhibiting what new users go through and is getting a lot of static for it.

@alexradu1921

2 жыл бұрын

I completely agree with this comment. Linux community doesn't make it easier to make more people (even developers) get into Linux, they're just unawarely toxic...

@grieveinsilence

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexradu1921 developer that never used linux, does this even exist?

@darknightmike10yearsago

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you. I wholeheartedly recommend running Linux Mint in a live boot environment and seeing if you like it. My experience with it has been great so far.

@rytisliaucys3444

Жыл бұрын

dont bother. Linux community are bunch of annoying gatekeepers that are anything but friendly. Stick with Windows.

@genericdeveloper3966

Жыл бұрын

I had that experience when I first tried some tiny distros 10 years ago. Getting help was terribly difficult. It made me despise Linux. I had a better experience using Ubuntu 6 years ago and I still use it today. That being said I'm not much of a gamer so I don't deal with the headache of figuring out how to get the latest and greatest games working. I use my PC for work, browsing the internet, and making phone calls.

It definitely was System 76's fault. How did a package borking your system when installing even pass quality control? This is not an obscure package with obscure dependencies. This is Steam we're talking about, it's one of the most downloaded piece of software there is.

@brianmadonna2873

2 жыл бұрын

Not sure about that I always install my updates when installing a new OS.

@imzesok

2 жыл бұрын

@@brianmadonna2873 well that's the rub; ubuntu and all it's derivatives(of which Pop! is one) have a background task called "unattended-upgrades", who's only job is to check for and install them automatically... which means It SHOULD have, in theory, been done already. however... it's supposed to notify, and prompt you for a password to apply them. which.. clearly never happend in this case. I think part of the blame at least lies with System76 there.

Really love the idea of this kind of a challenge. I just also really hope that the distro/DE devs will take notes and improve the UX both for new and existing users. This way, Linux could seriously end up being a friendly choice for everyone. So far, my experience with Linux has been pretty short, with performance quirks and other technical issues that lead me to revert back to Windows. I love the way some DEs look and feel, but it just still feels incomplete overall in my eyes.

@FeniksGaming

2 жыл бұрын

Instead Pop OS dev decided to blame linus on twitter for not reading warnings and said that "any normal user" would stop at this point and reported a bug and not go with "do as I say" things like this is what keeps people switching to linux it will never change unless dev teams actually become more in touch with new user experience

@TwelveLetter956

2 жыл бұрын

@@amystery5238 even worse, some elitist says that personal computing shouldn't exist

@Hugo_Prolovski

2 жыл бұрын

@@FeniksGaming that's the main problem of Linux. The community is so disconnected from the normal user.

@mickolesmana5899

2 жыл бұрын

@@FeniksGaming Wait, Really? That was quite unprofessional

@FeniksGaming

2 жыл бұрын

@@mickolesmana5899 Yes. He deleted those tweets and now "is taking a break from development" but basicly he claimed that any normal user would open github issue and wait for it to be fix before proceeding which is full of rubish

Watching Linus brick his gui with apt ,gave me so many flashbacks and also made me feel good about moving to fedora and dnf

@mecrumbly429___4

2 жыл бұрын

dnf is the slowest package manager I've ever used. All power to you though.

That steam install ‘yes do as i say!’ was hilarious 😂

@aeio_

2 жыл бұрын

I once wrote an app for internal support that managed and ordered things. We used it -- all trusted admins, lots of functions and all, but there was a special reset option where I make the popup: "You are about to make a mistake. You do NOT want to do this even if you're sure you do. Come see me and we'll talk; but DON'T gripe at me if you push the OK button first."

@MarcosRobertoDosSantosJF

2 жыл бұрын

@@aeio_ that was clever. A lot of people asked for help because of that?

@aeio_

2 жыл бұрын

@@MarcosRobertoDosSantosJF Two people came to me to talk and we fixed it elsewhere. Nobody actually used it -- guess I should have made it a separate isolated program. It was internal only with trusted users; no way would I have done that in general production. Another one I liked elsewhere: having a yes/no pop up with a no/yes confirmation. That way you couldn't just double click the mouse or keyboard, you had to click, move/tab, and click to confirm. No accidental operations, only intended ones -- unless you're SO unlucky I don't want to be around you. :-)

@Hardcore_Remixer

2 жыл бұрын

For a second I thought it was *Yes, do I say!* Just don't ask me why 😂

I think one issue with this "best distro for gaming" articles is that the author is trying to be fair to a broad range of distros rather than truly helpful to a brand new Linux user. They should just pick one tried and true distro, explain why they think it's a good choice, and accept the wrath of the Linux elitist community.

@leysont

2 жыл бұрын

it does say "reasons to buy" and "today's best deals" so it doesn't seem to me like the article's author knows what they're talking about

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

@@leysont Yeah if Linus can't spot a scam website that is on him, also doesn't speak highly of him. But his channel is basically the same sort of garbage sooo yeah. (I consider all of those websites that just exist to direct customer traffic to be scams. Often they take a "top ten best" format.)

@gotenks157

2 жыл бұрын

@@mytech6779 he could, and says so. He was doing the steps a basic user would do when trying to choose.

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

@@gotenks157 These click-scam websites are used for all manner of products, this has nothing at all to do with linux. Linus was simply being daft.

@gotenks157

2 жыл бұрын

@@mytech6779 maybe a little, but I'm watching this series from the perspective of like the noob ps/Xbox gamer who probably calls the screen the computer. Someone like that would have no clue that site was bs.

His sound issues are because he was using some mixer system that only works with a specific proprietary software

@tomatopotato4229

2 жыл бұрын

He acknowledged that. Sound problems aren't the only issue he encountered though.

@ledennon

2 жыл бұрын

Not a DE issue.

@ZukiFen

2 жыл бұрын

but he is using mixer as a mic input and sound doesn't worked on tv speakers through hdmi

@AshnSilvercorp

2 жыл бұрын

There's a reason why I always choose Analog sound outputs.

@Catsrules1

2 жыл бұрын

If it was proprietary software issues wouldn't he also run into that on Pop! OS? Sound was working under Pop.

As a former Linux noob, it's so funny: My experiences compared to Luke and Linus were both the opposite: Linux Mint was hard to figure out, and Pop_OS was a breeze. XD

@Custmzir

Жыл бұрын

Same with me, I just started using pop os rn

Isn’t it funny that Linus started the video “deleting” System32 on Windows and went to a Linux ditro and kind of did the equivalent!? 😂

"It's really not that difficult, it's just knowing how to do it" ... that also describes designing and building a nuclear reactor. That statement says it's difficult if you don't know therefore for a new user it will be difficult. Again, the point of the video.

@juliana1313

Жыл бұрын

'analogy is my passion' oh yea, leaerning how to use a new OS is VERY COMPARABLE to building a nuclear reactor. For a guys who's been years working with technology, he should know better. He's no newbie.

@aboveaveragebayleaf9216

Жыл бұрын

That's the whole point. It should have a good enough ui that even a newbie can get around. That is the only way it will work on a broad scale.

As a GNOME contributor, I'm sad we're being passed over for this video series. But it's ok. Much love to my Cinnamon and KDE friends :-) I hope the other parts of the series show off how great those two DEs are. But no joke, I'd love to see a video of Linus using vanilla GNOME. We've spent so much time making the experience nice and consistent for a reason. Bleh.

@samuraiBSD

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with you. Gnome gets a lot of (in my opinion, undeserved) hate for having a simplified, ultra-streamlined UI, but I think for the new user, it presents itself the best out of any widely available DE. It's a real shame that there are going to be millions of potential users who see Linus' video and never realize that there is an approachable, aesthetically pleasing user interface waiting for them when they come over to the Linux side.

@Samantas5855

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly most of the hate against GNOME is 100% justified. You give next to zero options to the user, for example desktop shortcuts and disabling the compositor are some vital options that GNOME just doesn't have. And let's not talk about the resource usage.

@samuraiBSD

2 жыл бұрын

@Akitake Hey look, one of them just commented!

@Crivicus

2 жыл бұрын

I respect that you are contributing to the community and thank you for them, but have to say, I dont really like Gnome. Too many strange design decisions for me (like the big mostly empty bar at the top - why even have it) but then I dont think any DE gets it completely right. A desktop environment does need to be consistent but I also feel it needs to do everything that you could otherwise use a command line for but in a GUI for mouse users. Essentially imagine a linux distro that you can unplug the keyboard for and not lose the ability to do anything. The distro needs to handle that and none do and a big part of that is down to the desktop environment. It is a failing (/strength) of many of us GNU/Linux users that we love the keyboard and use it as much as possible but for general users we need to consider a system from a no keyboard perspective. It may become important in the future with the eye tracking and brain neuron reading tech, that we could one day use as inputs into our systems, we want to make the system as easy and minimal button pressing as possible - and yes I consider each type of a key on a keyboard to be a button press just as if you were using an on screen keyboard with a mouse.

@chrisheater4118

2 жыл бұрын

I run linux as a daily driver and teach highschool. The simple ui of gnome is ideal for my workflow. I do not have time to configure kde.

I really really really hope desktop Linux as a whole can get it's collective s*** together one day.

@bluesillybeard

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, even as a full-time Linux daily driver I can say there are a wide variety of things that need to be reworked or just completely redone from scratch.

@someguy4853

2 жыл бұрын

Linux lost what ever hope it had when Gnome 3 came out.

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

You're free to contribute fixes. That is how free software works.

@houseofshred3725

2 жыл бұрын

​@@mytech6779 Do you really think that's all that's required to solve Linux's problems on the desktop? Bug fixes? It looks to me like there are deeper reasons more people aren't using Linux in that particular use case. I'm a former Linux guy. I got tired of the churn, the breakages, the less-than-helpful members of the community, the nuke-and-pave installs and reinstalls, the things that worked fine on one distro that were a nightmare on another... I would LOVE to come back, but it doesn't look to me like much has changed in the last five years or so other than Ubuntu being on life support, which is not a good thing. Hopefully, I'm just ill-informed and that life in Linux is fantastic. Cheers.

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

@Confitrality Yes this is because no two people have exactly the same need. I do prefer standards, this is why I dropped Ubuntu 10 years ago. Adherence to industrial standards, servicability and nteroperability is the reason that the most products in the USA are based on inches not meters.(The actual measurement units used to describe a standards are basically irrelevant to the practical use of the final standard.) A standard that allows only one option is not much better than having no standard at all because it simply will not be suited to many cases. As in clothing "one size fits none" is more accurate than "one size fits all" . Even in industry where chain and screws fit standards, each standard has different size and material options and other combinations creating hundreds of possible variations that are all within the standard. And standards can be revised as more data is collected and tools evolve different abilities.

I do like that all linux creators that I sub to DO give linus some benefit of the doubt. Each for there own reasons and thoughts which is fascinating. Probably helps linus does front some of the blame on what happened on his pop install (something that seems to be over looked at times) but think it sys something that linux users with audiences are at least more welcoming than some vocal posts I've seen (of course I've made the mistake of looking on reddit and philosophically fueled debates on a git hub pull request).

@RolandoGarza

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed; I think it's also nice that the reactions have translated into an easier experience for new users.

I hope this convinces the community that Linux will never be widely used in the desktop if the basic usability is not rock solid. I cannot believe that in 2021 there are still issues with multi-monitor setups. I cannot believe that a user friendly, gaming oriented distro cannot install Steam out of the box with the built-in store and it takes you instead to brick your own machine. Also package managers are just a worthless frontend and the command line is still essential for the most basic actions. Also let's remember that Linus is used to work with technology, for the average person, Linux is simply impossible to use.

@CorbinsDedah

2 жыл бұрын

For a guy that used to work with technology, he really makes some dumb, dumb mistakes. Like what he did here. That's just not reading text prompts.

@sbstratos79

2 жыл бұрын

@@CorbinsDedah Attitude like yours is the reason Linux UX is so terrible for beginners.

@CorbinsDedah

2 жыл бұрын

@@sbstratos79, because you have to tinker a little bit? We already have an OS that is easy to work with (when it isn't spying on you, or borking your system). Again, even Linus himself says when it comes to Windows, you always run updates before you install anything, which he neglected, then by not reading a prompt and hastily typing in the nuke command, then it's a dumb mistake. A seasoned tech guy should know better.

@neilgrundy

2 жыл бұрын

@@CorbinsDedah It's not a dumb mistake it's dumb wording, rather than an unambiguous warning, at the end of a wall of text. Newbs are going to do that sort of thing and until that's recognized, and addressed, Linux will remain niche.

@zebarzebra

2 жыл бұрын

I generally agree, but there are some things that Linux simply can't change. Nvidia simply locks Linux developers out and they can't develop a good working driver. Other stuff can be changed - we can all agree on one distro - but do we want that? IMHO that is the wrong approach. Choice is necessary and the very different forms that Linux is used is one of its biggest strength. Of course there is stuff like the wired buttons and so on, but can you really blame the developers? They created that GUI free to use - maybe it was on issue of time they could spend on that feature or a know how problem. If we really want that stuff to be rock solid we will need to invest into the projects so they can pay their developers - that is the key IMHO.

I use kde as my daily driver, and will agree that the audio interface is strange. But I never had any issues with audio not working. I was genuinely surprised that arch was more stable than windows for me

@backspacer0840

2 жыл бұрын

Linus' problem is that he's using an audio interface that only works with a proprietary driver available only on Windows, it has nothing to do with KDE.

As someone who went through something similar when I first used Manjaro few years ago. I can see how Manjaro's settings manager can get to Linus, and agree with that it would have been less unintuitive if the open-source column was a text column instead of checkbox column.

@gamingguy9006

Жыл бұрын

I actually prefer that checkbox method rather than having to input countless sudo apt commandsjust to get things installed!

This whole challenge can be seen as a giant free QA from ltt to linux community :)

The normal user shouldn't be expected to know or understand anything about the operating system. They should just have to deal with the software they want to use. No ordinary pc user cares or understands windows. No Mac user cares or understands macOS. Same for android or IOS. The same needs to be true for Linux for it to be a true mainstream desktop os.

@nikkiofthevalley

2 жыл бұрын

Well, the problem with that, is that then all the Linux "chads" and neckbeards will start whining. In all seriousness, that wouldn't be a good idea. Linux is designed to be able to do nearly anything, including deleting the DE. Adding more abstraction layers will dilute that to the point where you've basically made Windows.

I'm a Manjaro user and I totally agree with the fix you proposed. That checkbox column makes absolutely no fucking sense and I have very confused with how it works in the beginning

I think it's alright for new users not to know what DE is, since maybe from their former OS (Windows and Mac) DE isn't a thing.

@vladlu6362

2 жыл бұрын

DEs are a thing for windows and Mac. Windows uses Luna, and Mac has many windows managers available.

@anakay1184

2 жыл бұрын

@@vladlu6362 i have never heard about Luna. How would a normal windows user learn what a DE when there is only one option?

@virgileandanurrifqhi8364

2 жыл бұрын

@@anakay1184 Exactly what i mean, it exist, but not everyone really knows it exist...thus, i'm assuming DE it's not really a thing for Windows or Mac users. Unlike Linux users, even on the basic level of daily user (like me), know what DE is and what type of it they're dealing about. When you Install or got Mac/Windows on your PC, as a user you won't expect any configuration of DE, or etc. cause it's already configured and ready for you to take such an action. A very different compared to GNU/Linux where you can use various distro with various DE.

@Alex-dn7jq

2 жыл бұрын

@@vladlu6362 Luna was just a windows XP theme. Not a DE

@dreflox

2 жыл бұрын

isn't Windows' DE Aero?

props for not blaming the new user for broken userspace, unlike a lot of the "hot takes" i've seen lately lol

The last time I nuked my graphical environment like that was with Fedora. This was way back when Fedora was Fedora Core back in the early-mid 2000s. I haven't had this happen to me on Debian, but I have had other things get nuked in Ubuntu, but not quite that severe.

What happen to Linus it's proof that Flatpaks are a good idea.

@anssilehtimaki3841

2 жыл бұрын

And Appimages

@user-xr3rb6pn9m

2 жыл бұрын

And even, God forgive, Snaps 😃

@anibalenrique1676

2 жыл бұрын

Can i ask why flatpak is so well regarded by the community? I had an issue with it, that when trying to install Blender it wont recognize amd drivers for open cl. Had to use the one from snap for it to work properly. I read in one of the forums (can't remember which one) that the flatpak blender have that as a know issue. Im still a newbie to linux.

@osvaldoramos4006

2 жыл бұрын

freaking flatpak just eat my /var partition :/, but i agree great idea to distribute sw

I saw in the comments on Linus' video that Pop's package maintainers briefly released a broken Steam package. Some bad dependency flags or something. Just great timing on Linus' part.

@fauzrukendworld1633

2 жыл бұрын

You shouldn't able to just nuke your DE by installing a new app. I mean if this kind of thing happened on Windows it would be all over the web. Yes Linux does give you a lot of power over your system but it means also a lot of ways to shoot yourself in the foot and Linux newbies are going to do it.

@wertigon

2 жыл бұрын

@@fauzrukendworld1633 You are correct, Pop!_OS messed up, has taken responsibility and has fixed this bug. They did so within 24 hours. BUT... The less popular the OS, the less resources for QA. Pop!_OS is not exactly the most popular distro out there, even though it's slowly climbing it's way up. So the *reason* you would never see this in Windows, is because Microsoft can afford a full QA department, and Windows also has a much smaller scope than Pop!_OS does. When you have enough resources to automatically test every single package under the sun for a release, QA is pretty easy, you know... :)

14:31 Linux community, here's a solution to this problem. Only show the important stuff, like 'The following packages will be removed, you shouldnt do this unless you know what you're doing', and then list the critical packages. Hide all the other 'installed, upgraded removed' crap, behind a variable, like -E or something

The message on the terminal should've been in RED shining like crazy and saying "READ ME, READ ME, READ ME" using a voice.

@jjjacer

2 жыл бұрын

ive found for dumb users this just makes it just as bad as they will do whatever it takes to get this RED annoying crap off their screen, if it doesnt magically work they cant be bothered to read. But i do see some of these warnings could be better worded. Could have started with Warning, this will remove critical applications that allow the system to work, and once removed may prevent the computer from starting up, do you want to continue! ( with only this showing, then after confirming, then have a list of what will be removed with another confirmation, and then maybe a third with the rest of what will happen - start with the most relevant info first for the user to read, if longer than 1 sentence you already lost them., then after a double confirmation, thats about it, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink)

Linus removed his desktop environment and it was funny

I sympathize with Linus. I am constantly encountering weird issues with Linux. Having used it as my daily driver for over 4 years now, I am just getting better at dealing with them.

@terryforsythe8083

2 жыл бұрын

@@rippspeck Free BSD is challenging. I would try Linux Mint Cinnamon.

The longer this channel is, the more humor it has.

"it's not difficult if you know how to do it" installing a GPU driver should be simple and straightforward as most user will have to install one at some point.

My experiences with Linux were similar to these of Linus. I was using Linux on my own laptop and even tried it on hardware from Tuxedo Computers that claims to be 100% compatible. I like the concept of Linux but like Linus I fall into the category of someone who wants stuff to "just work", hassle free, so I can easily get work done, play games or do stuff on the Internet. Sadly I still encountered bugs, annoyances and hardware problems, even on the laptop that was made for Linux. At the moment I think Linux is best for open source and tech enthusiasts, people who are interested in customization and who take privacy very serious - and of course it works great on older hardware. Besides that, I would love to see it working better for "normies" in the future. I will definitly keep an eye on that.

8:45 you say "although you could if you knew how to do it" but the point of linus's video was that he was going in with absolutely no knowledge of how to do things

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

But that is like expecting to walk in and fly a jet with no knowlege or training just because you have experience driving a car with automatic transmission, automatic headlights and electronic curb warnings.

@XZYSquare

2 жыл бұрын

@@mytech6779 people tell me all the time linux is the best operating system for everyone. Not ever considering how people don't understand how computers work. My grandma would not know anything about linux and you expect her to just know how to get it to work? linux is no jet, jets don't work like cars, and if you think linux is like a jet than clearly linux is not the best for everyone.

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

@Confitrality I didn't say anything about walking, which is not operating a device. Again, just because an automatic transmission is suitable for a small car does not mean that an automatic transmission should be expected on a large commercial truck. Although they are both used for transportation, the two devices have very different specialties and requirements. (For the jet analogy. A jet is a very poor choice for a short distance trip or where direct cost is more important than time cost. It is a very good choice for long distance and high speed.) The behavior of random internet users is totally off topic. Blaming all linux distributions for free public internet forums is like blaming all motorcycle companies for the behavior of motorcycle gangs. It is just poor logic.

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

@@XZYSquare I didn't say linux is best for everyone, such a statement is clearly wrong at face value as it is not true for any product. If you blindly believe such a foolish statement you may have more problems than bad computer advice. Cars and jets are both transportation with engines so they serve the save purpose of transport, but they serve different specifc cases. Linux does not work like Windows and they do not serve the same purpose. For Windows to protect the user it must restrict the user, for linux to give full power to the user it cannot provide full protection. Cars sold to the public have restrictions to protect average drivers doing average tasks; racecars remove these protections and rely on more capable drivers and mechanic teams to do the intended job. The two situations are mutually exclusive.

@XZYSquare

2 жыл бұрын

@@mytech6779 "that is like expecting to walk in and fly a jet with no knowlege or training just because you have experience driving a car" if you don't know how to drive a car you wouldn't know how to drive a jet even if you didn't know how to drive a car you wouldn't know how to drive a car. Expecting that you would know how to drive a car while not knowing how to drive a car is not possible and is the reason linux isn't the best for everyone. because someone who does not know how to use a computer, will not know how to use a computer.

Hold up Gardiner, I'm just gonna get me some hot chocolate to watch this video that's a reaction to that video.

before seeing them i had definitely forgotten how much i'm accustomed to linux's ways and shortcomings as well. but every new experience requires some propaedeutics like windows as well have its ways and shortcomings.

@HDSQ

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, which is why a first-hand account of a new user's experience is so important for fixing usability issues. As with all constructive criticism, stuff like this will only make things better. I'm so excited for the future of Linux!

If Linux was a person Linus would be his younger brother...

@salo283

2 жыл бұрын

Linus Torvalds is a human, even if he doesn't appear to be..

Gardiner since you're a designer. Please consider creating a prototype of a better user experience for a Linux distro / desktop environment of your choice. Then you can send it to the devs of that distro and see if they like it.

@RobBCactive

2 жыл бұрын

The issue isn't good ideas it's fragmentation meaning application developers and end users don't have seamless experiences. A large part of the Linux distribution community objects to binary distributed software, so they undermined the attempt at an application ABI, making it useless and obsolete before it was even supported.

@jinxterx

2 жыл бұрын

He's a fashion designer not a GUI designer.

@gingerbeargames

2 жыл бұрын

All it needs is a consistent design language, it's not rocket science but it does require each of the developers to follow a style guide for the menu portions so that the environment is consistent. Making something like that isn't hard, getting designers to follow it is.

Honestly this just proves how hard it is to actually use Linux

0:51 => No. Linus meant the Microsoft Logo which is Red Green Blue Yellow

This is the first time I'm watching you. I appreciate how calm and supportive of Linus you were. I've used Linux for over 30 years now and was wincing at what he did, but I also agree with his criticisms. Thanks for an entertaining video.

I think my perspective shifted because of the LTT Linux challenge video. Linus fully explains that he is trying to present this as he really is -- a knowledgeable IT/tech guy and Windows expert, but also as someone who doesn't know desktop Linux. From that perspective he did absolutely nothing "wrong", or more importantly, nothing that you shouldn't expect someone with that background to do. His specific problems were weird, random, one-in-a-thousand+ things, but it definitely shows weaknesses in the user experience for someone that *is* "computer" savvy but not yet Linux savvy. Valve with Proton and the Steam Deck announcement etc. have really improved the situation so that people like me/us who *want* to daily drive Linux can, with far fewer of the fallback issues where we have to throw in another drive so we can dual boot Windows for games in general, some specific game, or to run some specific Windows-only software. Furthermore, those fallback issues have been decreasing incredibly rapidly over the past few years, and if anything the pace of that seems to be accelerating. BUT, for tech savvy but not Linux savvy people, I think it still isn't there quite yet -- let alone for "normies". SteamOS 3 will likely be another big step in the right direction, but we aren't to the point where Linux is going to provide a better user experience for people that just want to game plus do standard computer tasks like web browse and run basic office stuff. I think that time may well be coming, but it isn't here yet.

The first time I nuked my Linux, I was using pop os and windows 10 dual boot. Accidentally took a time shift snapshot and followed an article which said it is “safe” to delete the timeshift folder so I did and… next time I boot up it goes into the grub prompt instead of the menu. And I deleted the pop os partition afterwards

4:30 Just how out of touch do you need to be to think the average user would mostly understand this and that it was only an issue 10 years ago? I know non of these and I'm a computer science major who spends all day on a windows PC. I've tried out linux twice the only think I would for sure know without have to do additional research is gaming focused kernel modifications, and that's largely due to my computer science education and background. DE options when watching this video for the first time made no sense either, however, I'll admit I might be able to infer that it meant desktop environment if I was truly reading it all. But still that assumes everything else I'm reading on this page isn't totally going over my head so I'm more easily able to focus on that one element and figure out what it means. But if I'm a average user with no computer background I'm going to be so overwhelmed by everything else in the article that I might not actually make that connection. The other two highlights I literally have no idea. Just because you may have learned something 10 years ago doesn't mean the rest of the world did especially for non linux users and doubly so for non technical non linux users.

@wertigon

2 жыл бұрын

Chill man, I see where he's coming from. I game, too, but I don't need anything more than a few PPAs for newer software of a few key apps I use. Gardner is absolutely correct when he states that there is no reason to run gaming kernels anymore. Sure, if you *want* to chase the last 2-3 FPS out of your already 317 average CS:GO then yeah, go right ahead; ain't gonna be a priority for most filthy casuals like me.

@mattecrystal6403

2 жыл бұрын

​@@wertigon The whole point is that you're average casual is not going to know that. Your average consumer wants more power for less performance period. Half the time they won't even realise they are literally only saving 2-3fps, instead the thought process is hey I mostly play games on my PC, hence no reason to not get the most gaming optimized build. Half the time the wont even realise the amount of tweaking and technical knowledge required to properly get that last little bit of performance while maintaining a stable system. Furthermore, you're response isn't even related to my original comment. My entire point is 100% to do him rolling his eyes at the abbreviations used claiming "all this stuff is like 10 years ago, like this is stuff we were dealing with, that were like actual issues for, you know, new users 10 years ago." implying that these are not actual issues now, because users from 10 years ago eventually learned it (Assuming they didn't drop linux all together). The logic makes zero sense, we're talking about new users today not new users 10 years ago.

@wertigon

2 жыл бұрын

@@mattecrystal6403 It's not a problem anymore because you do not have to think about it anymore. At all. Ever. Unless you *want* to get neck deep, but then that is by choice. These are not issues in the same way editing Xorg config by hand is no longer an issue. Used to be true, isn't anymore.

@grn1

2 жыл бұрын

I took his statement to mean that the article Linus was reading was bad because it was making a big deal out of things that aren't really an issue anymore thus making them more confusing/less than helpful to newcomers. He didn't say the average user would mostly understand the terms, he said the average user shouldn't have to understand the terms because the terms reference issues that were fixed a decade ago.

@mattecrystal6403

2 жыл бұрын

@@grn1 my understanding is he's reference how articles often had these confusing terms x many years ago which caused confusion for newcomers. So the fact that this is a very recent article and the first result for a very common google search proves this is a modern issue, not some old issue that's been fixed. I don't think it's in reference to something actually being fixed in linux itself.

I remembered when I was a first time linux user, took me 3 days just to install a nvidia driver 😂. I was shy to ask on forums, and tried to google stuffs instead.

@davguev

2 жыл бұрын

I asked for help once in an IRC of whatever distro I was trying. I said "Hello!" (it's natural to greet when you are new) and no one replied. I waited and asked "Can someone help me, please?", so one of the guys said something like "How about saying what your problem is?" and from then on he was super rude the whole way until I finally fixed the issue. That was an awful experience.

17:30 That's not a safety, this INEVITABLY leads to the following story. "So I was installing calculator or whatever and it ran an update and now my computer is broken"

the tone of this video was not what I expected based on the title. I really thought you were going to tear into him. Just before Linus and Luke started talking about their Linux challenge, I was in the process of learning about it. I ended up going with Arch, btw (sorry I had to meme) and KDE. I went in with a totally different mindset than L&L since I wanted to learn, not just get up and go. It took me a few months of reading and frustration to understand what I was doing, but I am now in my third week of using Linux everyday for work and gaming. There's still a few things that I want to get ironed out, but I don't have anything blocking me from doing what I want, with the exception of very minor things (like I can get my printer to spit out a page, but there is nothing on it, but who prints anything anymore?)

This should never happen, deleting the whole desktop when installing a new package is totally unacceptable. What air head let that go live? Has anyone in Linux land ever heard of quality control?

@kvin9210

2 жыл бұрын

Nope

Finally. A reaction that make sense.

Everyone: Why can't you just be normal Linux: *screams*

I have been using Linux as my main OS for 4 years, and I have never seen that prompt of "Yes, do as I say."

This is why I LAUGH HYSTERICALLY at Linux users that call Windows "buggy".

@christopherfortney2544

2 жыл бұрын

There was a long time things were so buggy on Linux that Windows 8.0 was stable in comparison LOL.

@squngy0

2 жыл бұрын

Eh that kinda depends. Linux itself is super stable and bug free, but that doesn't include desktops and other stuff regular users want. The sad thing about Linux is, just about everything on it that some big company isn't using to make money is going to be underdeveloped.

This is one of the reasons I like XFCE. KDE and cinnamon are beautiful and great in their own way but I have had the least amount of trouble with Gnome and XFCE by far. Feel free to disagree. This is just my personal experience.

@flythereddflagg

2 жыл бұрын

@Akitake Agreed. the ootb experience is terrible (I’m looking at you Fedora XFCE and Xubuntu). But I do love what Manjaro and Linux Mint have done with their XFCE editions. I have daily driven Manjaro and mint xfce on a 2012 laptop for the last two years with excellent results. They would be my recommendation to any beginner especially with older hardware.

"Pop! Is very beginner friendly" Pop!: "Install Steam? I'm sorry, did you say you want to delete your desktop environment?"

He could always roll his own linux install, that's what we did in 1992

I been using Gnome/ubuntu for years and it just does the thing. i play games and it was as easy as installing steam and clicking my games. i do have an AMD CPU and GPU. I dont like to tinker or distro-hop anymore. I love being able to use my PC to do whatever i want and it just does it. I know alot of ppl hate ubuntu but i never have any problems with it. I even use ubuntu-server on my NAS. i feel like Luke is gonna have a better experience cause he chose what i think is a good beginners distro, Linux Mint.

@backspacer0840

2 жыл бұрын

Never let anyone criticize you for the distro you chose for your computer

@diablo.the.cheater

2 жыл бұрын

I had a lot of problems with ubuntu, mainly with apt borking ubuntu when i installed third party stuff, but my main use for a computer is to install a bunch of weird stuff from the internet, so it is inevitable that i end up adding PPA after PPA and enter dependency hell with similar results to what happened to Linus. I hate shared libraries at this point, i just think each application should come bundled with it's own dependencies in the correct versions, no sharing allowed. After all libraries don't waste that much hard drive space and hard drive space is not that premium today.

@tommynaugle3572

2 жыл бұрын

I have the same experience, Ubuntu always worked just fine for me

Honestly I'm learning even more valuable Linux do's and don'ts by watching the reacts to Linus' challenge. Excellent content man!

Perhaps it should ask you to type "Yes, I want to pull a Linus."

I've tried and given up on daily driving Linux, unless you have a friend who knows or time to go online and ask/wait for questions and answers you will find it a very painful experience. I know the minimum to make my small projects work, but to try and use it constantly, forget it.

@ethan-fel

2 жыл бұрын

i've got the same impression about Windows. It's good in a VM but i would never daily drive it.

Honestly - I actually think this series is a pretty decent wake up call that Linux Desktop (whilst still VERY awesome) still has some work before it's ever going to pose a legitimate threat to Windows or MacOS. Linus is clearly playing dumb a little here, but that's intentional. He is actually a template for the kind of person that is the best chance for Linux to get the best growth: the 'casual geek' who may not be a programmer or super nerd themselves but are otherwise usually pretty cluey. The fact that Linus is struggling is MORTIFYING. That being said, I will bet any money he'll retry this in a year and use this series as a comparison.

@deth3021

2 жыл бұрын

Linux is a bit like fusion power from that perspective. Still some work needed... Been hearing that for over a decade....and I'm not sure how much it has gotten better in that time frame.

@JamesJones-zt2yx

Ай бұрын

Disappointing, maybe, but mortifying? The very first thing anyone thinking of making the switch should put on a post-it note on the monitor is: LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS. IF YOU TRY TO DO SOMETHING THE WAY YOU WOULD ON WINDOWS, YOU MAY WELL REGRET IT. And not being like Windows isn't a bug. To paraphrase dmr, "If you want Windows, you know where to find it." Second, you may well have hardware whose makers don't give a flying Wallenda about whether their stuff works with Linux. That's not Linux's fault. Third, there may well be software that doesn't (at least currently) run under Linux. That, of course, means that the gaming part of the challenge was set up to fail, because a lot of game makers don't care about Linux, and even if there are people trying to make it work under Linux, the result will get shot down by code that assumes that if you're running Linux, you're trying to cheat. And finally, if games aren't running on Linux the instant they're running on Windows, a potential Linux gamer will always find that the gamers he knows will always have finished and moved on from whatever game is just now available for Linux.

14:32 Try telling this to all the Linux users in his comment section and on Twitter that he should've expected this or even read the warning, when you just sit through word vomit.

@evoltaocao5078

2 жыл бұрын

lol it is usually not necessary to read the wall of text but maybe the paragraph of the question. saying yes to everything in linux is choosing death lol. gotta read a little

@knghtbrd

2 жыл бұрын

If you have spew and need to issue a big fat SERIOUSLY STOP AND READ THIS ONE BIT, DUMMY, OR YOU'RE GONNA NUKE YOUR SYSTEM type warning, not a "hey uh, yeah, you don't wanna do that there then yet, but uh, if you want me to maybe I just will there okay?" (Obviously better wordings are wanted.)

@evoltaocao5078

2 жыл бұрын

@@knghtbrd i feel like it is also on the user to research what is that things he is about to remove instead of doing wtv and having not the slightest idea of what is going on with their system and never being able to troubleshoot anything. the warning says what it is about to do to and the things it is going to do it to. i think it is on the user to know the basics of their system. idk if the maintainers should be having to write a myriad of custom warnings for everything since a system can be borked a million ways if the user don't at least read the man page or google what is the thing he doesn't know and is about to delete.

@knghtbrd

2 жыл бұрын

@@evoltaocao5078 That's fair. If Gardiner weren't as predisposed to loathe apt … I wonder if you'd consider that the tool literally says this is bad, but if you tell me to do it, I will. The fact is simple: I'm a developer. If you, the user, want to shoot yourself in the foot, it's my job to make sure the bullet gets where you aimed it. But I'm also a UX guy. Extracting signal from noise is important. apt spits out a lot of noise and it really could use color or whitespace to make that warning stand out more. But ultimately, Linus decided to just be a know-it-all and jump in head-first without reading so much as the Debian installation manual because he's too much of an "expert" to need that. And he got spanked by his own hubris. To be fair, I hosed my own first Debian installation within 12 hours. It was all the way back in 1997, predating apt. Hosed the second one too. I was trying to upgrade from libc5 to libc6 (glibc 2.0) using dpkg -iEORGB on a directory full of .deb files and dselect. After the second hosing, I got on irc and got some help doing the bo (stable 1.3) to hamm (testing 2.0) upgrade. And this time I wrote down exactly what I did. That became a large part of the 1.3 → 2.0 upgrade instructions. But you've gotta admit when you're out of your element and ask for help-something "normal users" will do, but Linus didn't.

@evoltaocao5078

2 жыл бұрын

@@knghtbrd just need to read a paragraph about the wtv situation and you are probably good. linus went full windows noob saying yes to everything. to be fair he probably did it for the noob audience that might do just that.

I just love the Miranda, Constitution, Galaxy and Excelsior class ships on your wall

As an LTT viewer and non Linux user it's really nice to see a Linux channel openly acknowledge the flaws and potential roadblocks us average Joe's may encounter with pretty minimal vitriol in the comments section... Seems like I've found a relatively healthy part of the community 😊

You can say he popped the OS.

KDE isn't as bad as you described it... Specially the settings panel has gotten a lot of love in the last month. For my part, I can not confirm the audio issues. I totally agree on the Manjaro Driver selector thought. It's amazingly bad designed.

@christopherfortney2544

2 жыл бұрын

KDE has always been KDE. People either hate it or love it. But god has it been consistent. One reason it is underrated.

I think the issue here is that they just cannot go and ask someone who knows for help. When I switched to Linux, I had a Debian developer in the dorm sharing the kitchen, who helped with the stuff I didn't know. And later, when a problem came that I couldn't solve myself, I could go and ask it in IRC. And in most years, that doesn't happen.

They definetly had more problems than i was expecting but good that we see these problems so we can fix them :)

Glad they are doing this. I hopped off Linux and went back to a debloated Windows. I just hate that it feels so unpolished and random quirks and issues. Like, I can debug and troubleshoot but at some point I don't want to do that. I hate that the community brush it off to the point it feels like a circle jerk at times. I want to use an open operating system I really do. It's just not good enough yet. I just hope this pushes the projects into the right direction. Linux needs an insane amount of UX polishing. I can use the terminal but I shouldn't have to at ALL. I'm a developer I know my way around the terminal, but there is no point of having a GUI if it's so subpar. But then again the projects could be under funded or whatever. It's hard, but that's the way it is right now even though it's so much better than before.

super excited with linux challenge series , and really hope distro design team is taking notes I have been using Manjaro for over a year now and loving it, but I really hate the Nvidia driver settings specially when I want to downgrade :(

The flower logo is Lakka... idk why they had an emulation distro running retroarch for the pi4 listed on there...

I really, really like your take here, focusing on the real issues, pointing out stuff I've just gotten used to, like the "Yes, do as I say!" thing. The whole UX still needs a boatload of elbow grease.

I thought Linus was gonna have a more stinging review than he did… looking forward to the rest of the series!

I hope you'll revisit your views on KDE at some point. It's evolved a lot over the last while, particularly in the system settings layout. So your pet peeves may be addressed already. Having said that, it sounds like gnome fits you very well, so I imagine you're preference won't change even if your view on KDE relaxes a little.

@timgravierjr.4241

2 жыл бұрын

Proud KDE user, and so is my non-nerd family.

@bitwolfy

2 жыл бұрын

KDE is my first DE and its been fantastic, bar the settings panel and KDE app ui consistency. Beyond that I feel right at home as an ex windows user.

Gardiner, I love how you explain what Linus is going through here, bc the first time I watched his video, I couldn't understand what was going on. This situation is a typical and VERY COMMON reason people don't make the conversion from Windows to Linux. I have had so many experiences like this trying different distros. I think you and Linus would make a great team that could address the actual barriers, like this situation, to switching from Linux.

It's interesting seeing yours and Chris' perspectives on this.

16:35 Had the opposite happen was building binaries I installed all deps and some where for the gui version and suddenly it installs gdm and gnome onto my ubuntu server I was happily using the tty on.

I've honestly never had issues with apt tbh.

@nightmayr354

2 жыл бұрын

Same I don't really get his misgivings about apt, I can only speak from my experience of using apt and yum/dnf but apt has been a better experience for me. Can't speak for pacman

@timgravierjr.4241

2 жыл бұрын

I've only ever used RPM back before Fedora, and apt. That said, I've never had many problems with apt either. But, then again, I actually read the messages that are displayed on the screen.

@GreatGodSajuuk

2 жыл бұрын

It's just kind of an ugly unformatted mess, I switched to fedora and when I saw how DNF prompts all the package info in neat tables that are easy to read and actually shows progress for certain steps with progress bars it really was a huge contrast and apt just looks super primitive to me now.

@bfrd9k

2 жыл бұрын

I like apt, and apt has gotten better in the past few years but it use to bite every once in a while, out of the blue. I too allllllways double check what apt is going to do before I hit enter.

I switched to Linux some years ago after my HDD died, I had really struggled with giving up games at that time, but really wanted off of windows. I took the jump thinking that my future self would thank me if I put in the effort to learn it. Today I have a career in the Linux-sphere and don't really play games so most of what I do seems pretty easy, watching these guys get the common stuff working reminds me that Linux may not be as simple as I had grown to think. I still feel it was the best choice of my adult life and couldn't pay the bills without it.

The error message should have you type "Yes I am about to uninstall critical packages, Yes this includes you Linus"

I've never encountered that apt error. I've killed my pop install by compiling OBS but not that. His criticisms about the recommended distros were spot-on. he did alright. BTW, they have one little but very important issue: they're using Nvidia GPUs on Linux which are GOATed on windows but not so good on Linux.

@johnbiscuit8272

2 жыл бұрын

Noob here, I have Nvidia GPU on Popos because of tensorflow, it has never been a problem, so I have no idea why the Linux community keeps saying it's a problem. It's only been a problem if I used anything that isn't Pop I guess.

@jangelelcangry

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnbiscuit8272 Because AMD's Mesa drivers are very good & Nvidia uses their proprietary ones for better performance. Radeon is better integrated with Linux.

@CheeseypiPlays

2 жыл бұрын

Nvidia cards are way better than they were even a couple years ago, but yeah, still not ideal

@isaboll1

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnbiscuit8272 I think part of the reason for the discourse on Nvidia drivers is, due to the lack of official support with regards to allowing parts of their stack to be open-source, much of the support of Nvidia drivers on Linux is based on their time table and what they prioritize on, unlike with AMD drivers where due to the open source MESA stack, stuff can happen despite the work AMD puts into their own stack. One example where this seemingly can cause an issue is for example, support for the VK_EXT_external_memory_dma_buf extension. This extension isn't supported under Nvidia's Vulkan implementation, which can cause issues with some compositors that may take advantage of that (notably Valve's Gamescope, this is actually one reason amongst others why it's incompatible with Gamescope, which uses the extension for optimization sake). If the Vulkan implementation was open-sourced on the other hand, or had a reasonably well supported open sourced implementation, then the community can add that necessary support despite Nvidia's lack of action. This also applies to the Wayland compositor and GBM support, which recently is starting to improve, but hadn't for a long time due to the main Nvidia team's lack of focus in those areas, and somewhat inaction. This applies to other areas as well, but hopefully you get the gist.

@johnbiscuit8272

2 жыл бұрын

@@jangelelcangry yeah... As I said, never been a problem for me atm.

I know you're a big GNOME fan (and I'm a KDE guy), but it's not the desktop I would recommend to first time users, because 1) the options they strip out are often options that I need, and 2) the interface is completely different to Windows or Mac. I use Linux Mint for newbies and old folks and they understand it easily.

@honzikjk7979

2 жыл бұрын

That may be true for some people. But for example my mom uses Windows PCs for years, and she's always lost there. When she borrowed my GNOME laptop (PopOs with Dash-To-Dock), and needed to do some basic stuff (edit documents, browse the internet) she got everything done relatively easily. I would definitely recommend GNOME to completely new PC users. To users that are used to Windows.....It depends....

@johnknight9150

2 жыл бұрын

@@honzikjk7979 That's cool, but I'd like to see how would go with the two distros back-to-back. :P Mint is Windows-like, but not in a bad way. It's probably most like Windows 2000, which is one of the two releases I actually liked!

Well, I started with Slackware... Shouldn't have done that

Im relay happy with the LTT videos and your react video is fun to adding extra context. I think the steam people will be looking at the same problems for there user base and working out ways to make it more normal/gamer friendly. Switching OS is a scary task, every problem you hit makes it even more of a problem.

like if at least apt used a different color for the very important warning about uninstalling essential apps then we could say its his fault

@DemiImp

2 жыл бұрын

Not even then. There's no excuse for installing an application causing your DE to uninstall.

@DemiImp

2 жыл бұрын

I feel like an important part of apt that is missing is a way to "undo" a set of previous commands. If you run an apt command and it completely borks your system, a good "apt undo" would be a godsend to get you back up and running and close to, if not completely, recovered from a mistake.

@-morrow

2 жыл бұрын

@@DemiImp he didn't install an application. he clearly agreed to uninstall a lot of stuff as apt made very clear. users not reading the info on the screen doesn't require any other excuse.

@DemiImp

2 жыл бұрын

@@-morrow He clearly typed in "sudo apt install steam". He typed in an installation command. It doesn't make sense that telling your machine to install a package would include the uninstallation of anything. Sure, as someone familiar with Linux you know why. But as someone who was just given Linux, it doesn't. When you tell your machine specifically to do X, why would it ever do anything other than what you specifically told it to do?

@-morrow

2 жыл бұрын

@@DemiImp and it will install steam as the user commanded. it will inform you that doing so will "require" the removal of other things (because popos messed it up). of course there is littlr handholding the user when using the cli (apart from the improveable warning question), but you can't say it doesn't make sense. what would be the alternative? the gui just refused the install, that's not fulfilling the users command "apt install steam" since it can do it with the resulting removal of the DE...

The problem is we need somebody to make Linux a standard. Windows has had years of bug fixing/beta testing and has had a lot $$$$ and support from major hardware vender behind it. Valve has the $$$ to do it. But they threw like what 3-10 ppl at it then just gave up. I hope steam deck is the push we need for industry to support. Including major guys like Nvidia/AMD/Intel.. Linus is correct. Many distro are all over the place. Their no standard. And most hardware vender support is hit or miss. Valve has money to push/develop and make linux as standard. Steam OS/Steam Deck could be the push we need. Vulkan is the future imo. Proton has helped a lot, thanks vulkan. I’ve had pain in ass trying install Nvidia drives for GTX 1080ti. Audio onboard also been real pain in the ass (RealTek is shit and drivers on windows as just as buggy at times for my msi x470 gaming pro carbon). Windows driver install are easier vs Linux. If Vavle actually built Linux os from ground up and continued work on for future. They could actually challenge windows. But they just don’t seem to care. Maybe steam deck and custom steam os is the answer. I do agree with Linus. Pop os should be beta test more. Do this shit doesn’t not happen. But they don’t. So many distro feel like they still beta. Just install steam or any simple software should cause system crash. They say it’s easy install. Nope. That’s bullshit.

@outofahat9363

2 жыл бұрын

Hopefully steam os can become the closest thing to a standard at least for gaming

People like this one make me feel like the linux community isn't just toxic garbage. He doesn't judge a noob for making mistakes that really shouldn't be this easy to make.

This is why I have all of my new Linux users initially use the graphical installers only. I tell them NOT to follow online command line instructions without contacting me. After a few times they learn and I loosen the grip. After a while they get proficient. There is a learning curve and having someone to help really changes the game.

@billysherman2702

2 жыл бұрын

I'd like to add, the DEVS should be taking LOTS of notes here! This is a great case study!

This LTT video series will be great to attract interest to desktop Linux. It’s just such a pitty that none of them will be using Gnome, that is exactly the kind of interface Linus was looking for. And it would be a good showcase for Gnome.

@ChaosTherum

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly I think he would have been best off on Cinnamon, or Pop I forget if that's a fork of Cinnamon. It's much friendlier to a Windows user and is just about as streamlined as Gnome.

Linus is right - Linux distros are cluttered with names and acronyms for even tiny functions, and so many bugs exist. More time should be spent making it easy....

Before you leave a comment about "DECAF?!?" please note that I have an *extreme hypersensitivity* to caffeine. 1 cup of decaf for me is like 2 cups of regular coffee for normal people. If I have fully caffeinated coffee by mistake it keeps me awake for about 30 hours. That's not an exaggeration.

@TheHackysack

2 жыл бұрын

I'm new to your channel, but I just wanted to say one thing. Drip coffee is the best coffee. For some reason, everything that comes out of a Keurig or similar device has an aftertaste to me. Even the hot chocolate does. Maybe it was the specific machine, but I've tried it on multiple occasions and just can't get past it. Although, I'm thinking about trying Cometeer soon. Have you tried them?

Linux devs, pay attention to these videos! You'll know what is high priority to fix for new users.