My opponent spending a CP every turn to make sure a chaff killing unit kills chaff without being killed in return seems...annoying, but not as annoying as actual cheap effective indirect fire that doesn't need any CP to function.

@davidjones4772

28 күн бұрын

Cheap effective indirect fire? Pretty sure that doesn’t exist?

@musicalcharge

28 күн бұрын

@@davidjones4772 not any more it doesn't, but it did. I fear this less than deso spam.

@Swordsmansmith87

27 күн бұрын

​@musicalcharge Basilisk are 150 points. Pretty cheap for what they do.

@cavedog1989

26 күн бұрын

Id say the mortor pit while is quite costly for full effect, its decent to good into msu. Especially into meq stats.

@Swordsmansmith87

26 күн бұрын

@cavedog1989 I think 3d6+3 shots with lethals still kills enough talons to make them combat ineffective even with 0 ap.

Just giving a heads up regarding the charge, If a model in the unit can end a move in base to base with a model in the enemy unit, it must (Core Rules, change phase, charging with a unit, last paragraph) so if ur roll was a guarantee to get in, u can't intentionally leave models out of B2b

@digitaldiamond1928

12 күн бұрын

This is what I was thinking so you would have to be careful if using rapid ingress to not have to do a 9” charge because you then might end up with more models than you wanted in b2b contact. Also opportunistic raiders can only be done on units not within engagement range anyway so why move 6” and then go into reserves when you could just go into reserves

These videos on new and strong units are so helpful dude. Thanks for the content.

@TacticalTortoise

23 күн бұрын

Glad it helped!

Well as a Blood Angels player seems like I have a decent amount of tools to deal with these, fights first from Judicar and Mephiston, Sanguinor for his special ability, and access to multiple flamestorms (Baal pred and LRR).

I could be wrong but the Index stratagem you show at the 11:06 time mark no longer exists? I think it was replaced with Torpefying Refrain in the Codex.

Merciless Pursuit in Dread Talons can be super spicy with them as well. It creates situations where you actually want to roll low, i.e. pacting for lethals or something, to leave a unit alive so you can charge them when they fall back and trap them.

@d00ts

28 күн бұрын

The funny part though is if you battle shock them and they die on the desperate escape it can be catastrophic.

pretty sure (around 5:00) you could have moved other models into engagement range

@T3RR4212

25 күн бұрын

Right. If you can, you have to. Those weren't great examples of how to take advantage of the situation. He may have been able to move the rear models first such that the front models couldn't fit their bases on the other side so we're out of engagement

I just used my Stompa on the Waaagh! Turn. Used the dread mob detachment with the supercharged boilers stratagem. I got close enough for a 6 inch charge and tore through them all in one turn. So that’s my advice I guess, keep a suuuper dangerous melee unit next to your chaff when there’s a sizable number of these guys.

Can’t the enemy consolidate into the talons to prevent this?

@TacticalTortoise

28 күн бұрын

If a unit did not charge and is not in engagement range, they can't be selected to fight - so no.

@dementiamaster12

28 күн бұрын

Yes, and also pile in and charge moves on 10th require every model to end up base to base if possible, making his suggested move very difficult

@toferkrz946

28 күн бұрын

Possibly, but that is dependant on the specific order of operations in the Fight phase and also kinda requires the Chaos player to make a mistake and put their Warp Talons in consolidation range.

@mikoajkosowski1750

28 күн бұрын

The only way for this move to work would be against a unit with an already wounded model and if every Warp Talon was engaging only that single wounded model. It ain't happening.

@TacticalTortoise

27 күн бұрын

​@dementiamaster12 It's certainly possible to roll high on the charge roll and be forced into base contact, but with move blocks it happens a lot more than you'd think. Pile In and Consolidate moves are optional, so models already in a position to attack what they want just won't move.

Just started a CSM army, very valuable information for the newbie that I am, much appreciated.

Really been thinking about Psykers for my Guard and the Infiltrators somehow seem necessary now

Howling banshees are back in the game, brother!

There are many ways to make them just spicy raptors and if someone can’t hack them then that’s on them. They hit hard only low defense 1w models and anything harder than that is going to survive.

I think this needs an errata to work at the end fo the opponents fight phase

theres a problem with the demo at 04:50 when charging if you can base to base you must so it drags in more of the unit

@TacticalTortoise

25 күн бұрын

Depends on your charge roll, and if you can block off the bases

@shadowplotter

24 күн бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise i should also have remembered your doing this for demonstration purposes :P sorry mate!

I think in theory it's strong but on the table it will be overated

Doesn't this assume you consistently make a 9" charge roll? How likely are you going to make that each turn?

@mischa3726

27 күн бұрын

Thats why he suggests using rapid ingress. With 12" move you can set them up pretty well (bar screening). Pretty cp heavy tactic though

This does not quite make sence as you have to end base to base if possible. Also not the opponent get to pile in before they can warp away?

@kryzys5385

28 күн бұрын

They dont get to pile in because they did not charge anything and they are not in engagement range.

@adolphzimmerman7882

27 күн бұрын

Still, you would have to be really good with blocking yourself, to create the situations Trevie showed.

@TacticalTortoise

27 күн бұрын

It certainly depends on the charge roll, but comes up way more often than you'd think

When u say "at any point during the fight phase it was engaging an enemy unit" (3:05), is that not wrong as the rule state, on screen. "it IS with in engagement range" implying that it has to be at the point of activation

@TacticalTortoise

26 күн бұрын

Those are the requirements to be eligible - if either was true during that phase, then it was eligible to fight that phase and can Warp Strike at the end.

@EyeBall720

26 күн бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise Right your referring to the requirement of the ability, not its current eligibility to fight.

How is indirect fire effective against them if they spend your whole turn in reserves?

28 күн бұрын

Hitting them after Rapid Ingress? 🤔

@TacticalTortoise

27 күн бұрын

They're likely going to be on the table at some point; where they deploy there or RI in. The CSM player could certainly just deep strike them and hope they hit the charge out of reserve but that's so much jankier.

Yeah, this is going to get "Once per game"

@trentathawat6714

27 күн бұрын

Seems probable, but how long will it take to institute that change? If it's not until the Balance Dataslate after the upcoming one, it means a good sixth months of this unit dominating the meta.

@TLPlants

26 күн бұрын

Things like this often makes me think GW doesn't actually play their game.

I am not sure your opponent during his turn can force you to sequence YOUR abilities in any specific order. I don't see what would stop you from declaring Opportunistic raiders, doing the fallback AND THEN declaring the Warp talon return to reserves ability.

@TacticalTortoise

27 күн бұрын

The active player always determines the order in which simultaneous effects resolve - based on the exact format rules the inactive player will either have to declare all of their triggered effects first and allow the active player to dictate sequencing, or the active player will dictate the order in which the decision to use each effect is made (the rules are ambiguous on which way that interaction goes, but most of the time the difference is pretty meaningless).

@chromehunter2074

27 күн бұрын

That's not true at all. It says end of the fight phase. Strat is used, then put back in strategic reserves. I play necrons and use hyper phase all the time. End of the turn is slightly different then end of the fight phase. It is possible for your opponent to surround the warp talons and force them to use a desperate escape. But there's nothing in the rules preventing a player from saying are you done your fight phase, they say yes, play the strat to fall back then back into reserves they go. Your opponent cannot prevent you from using a strat.

@arj693

27 күн бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise I don't have the new codex and can't reference the rules exactly. I don't believe the rules say you can force the inactive player to declare all their rules at the same time. That would be an assumption, unless I've missed something in the core rules. I don't think there are really two things happening at the same time here. So the "inactive" player does the fall back strat, moves his models and then declares that now that they are unengaged, he will use the Warp talons' ability. I can't see how the active player would say "Oh you can't because back when you couldn't use the Warp strike ability, you had to declare that you wanted to, and then I would get to decide you use the Warp strike ability first, which you couldn't and now the fight phase is over". That does not seem grounded in the rules.

@TacticalTortoise

27 күн бұрын

​​@@arj693Timing rules are certainly a weakness of 40k's mechanics, but I think you'd have an extremely hard time convincing someone to let you resolve an effect *after* the step in which that effect resolves has been completed 🤷‍♂️ Edit: It's probably relevant to mention that every tournament format I know either requires that all relevant effects be worked out and declared simultaneously and the order chosen by the active player (WTC does this), or gives the active player control over the order in which their use must be declared (most US tourneys work it this way). Again the rules are ambiguous on exactly how timing is meant to be resolved, but that is how most of the scene understands it afaik

@arj693

27 күн бұрын

@@TacticalTortoise But I'm not. It's still the end of the fight phase. I've just finished doing one thing (the strat) and after that I am doing another thing that is only possible after I did the strat (supporting the argument I would make that they are not happening "at the same time" even though they happen in the same timing window). In my opinion it is the active player that is going to have an extremely hard time arguing that he can shut the door on the "end of fight phase"-step as described in my earlier comment. I don't think the bit about sequencing in the core rules is enough. But yeah, all this could have been made clearer in the rules.

What is that online simulator?

@JohnBryett-wt9uj

27 күн бұрын

Table top sim

@TacticalTortoise

27 күн бұрын

Https://tts40k.com

So death guard seem fairly decent against them? All troops in rhinos... PBCs picking those talon squads off. Just thoughts... Not sure.

@trentathawat6714

27 күн бұрын

Overwatching with all of their Torrent weapons makes Death Guard more resistant to this unit than other factions as well.

As many pointed out. If a unit has been charged it will then make a pile in move, probably re engaging the talons. Also charging models in 10th must end base to base with enemy models if possible. That way, talons will probably have to kill the entire unit 90% of the time for that ability to work, or use a strat to move away

@kylenewnam8231

28 күн бұрын

A unit that had been charged, but is not currently in engagement range, does not get to activate and so it does not get to pile in.

@Swordsmansmith87

27 күн бұрын

​@@kylenewnam8231so you just pull the models from the back and if they fail to kill the whole unit you're piling in.

@mischa3726

27 күн бұрын

That's why in the video, he suggests charging a wounded model so the opponent doesn't get a choice and has to take that one model away first. It works, but it's pretty niche. I think the talons works way better if you expect to actually whipe the unit you are charging though

What's the logic of them having an invun? Seems arbitrary

@Nikusarusan

28 күн бұрын

pretty sure the jumppack intercessors also have one, so jumppacks propably EDIT: i was wrong, JPAI dont have an invuln so my guess is a good as yours

@Congojackk

28 күн бұрын

Theyre demons…

@lohikaarmeherra-1753

28 күн бұрын

Warp talons have passed the treshold into demonhood.

@gavinziozios1431

28 күн бұрын

They're basically flying possessed, that's why

@revandriel9233

28 күн бұрын

DAEMON SAVE!!!!! They've had it for a few editions now.

Fight first only works in the subsequent fight phase, not after a charge. Charging unit always fights first.

@Swordsmansmith87

27 күн бұрын

Incorrect. If you charge a unit that fights first ie for example a world eaters MoE with bezerkers. Moe's unit fights first before the unit that charged them.

@mischa3726

27 күн бұрын

The actual rules are a bit more nuanced. Having fights first while getting charged does give you the opportunity to fight before the charging unit, because in your turn during both 'fights first phase' and 'normal fight phase' your opponent gets to activate a unit first. In the fights first phase this is specifically relevant if your opponent has a unit with the fights first abillity since he gets to activate first. Most of the time he will not have any of the units meaning your units with fight first will just fight one after the other (everything that charged get the fights first abillity for that turn) Fights first does not mean you get to always fight first. It just means that unit get to be activated in the fights first phase which works with the same activation rules as the normal fight phase

@chromehunter2074

27 күн бұрын

@@mischa3726 when you read the rule, in the core rules, the unit that charges gets the fight first ability. It does get complicated when there are multiple units in the fight phase that are still eligible to fight. I mean, so yes, there can be units that can fight first after the charge phase just not those units that were charged. Im not sure if my comment was clear on that or not. However, your opponent will always get the fight first ability in your turn regardless unless you have units that have the fight first ability. It hasn't really changed since 8th. I was just trying to keep it simplified as a single unit charging a single unit.

@mischa3726

27 күн бұрын

@@chromehunter2074 but thats wrong I think. if you have a unit that has fights first abillity and your opponent charges (in his turn) it BOTH units have the fights first abillity that round. however in the fights first phase since it is your opponents turn YOU get to choose the first unit for activation which can only be a unit with fights first therefore you can attack frist even though your opponent charged. The same way your opponent gets to activate a unit first in ongoing combat

@chromehunter2074

27 күн бұрын

@@mischa3726 you could be right? I want you to know im not arguing with you im just taking what the rules say and explaining how we play the game. I just want to make that clear before so there's no hostility lol. According to how the core rules are worded any units that charged that turn get the fights first ability. It also says that for other rules that any unit that has similar rules that whose ever turn it is goes first. So, I, we have always played it as if a unit charged they get to activate and do their attacks first, then it's the opponents turn to activate and do their attacks. Once all units that have the fight first ability have fought it goes back to the opponent being able to activate and fight first alternating back and forth. This is how I have played every game in 10th. I could very well be misinterpretating the rules. Im not at all saying I or my opponents haven't been playing 10th completely wrong this whole time, but this is how we resolve the fight phase. So, let's say turn 2 was the charges. Turn 3 would activate all the fight first units then alternating between the remaining. Always have had the units that charged, get to do their attacks first. Never had a single disagreement with any of my opponents when we resolve the fight phase this way. There could be a whole lot of people playing 10th wrong lol.

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Ewwww

This whole vid was spoiled yesterday. I refuse to watch

@maltehofs9533

28 күн бұрын

?

@Wes-xk6hl

28 күн бұрын

​@maltehofs9533 just a joke from stream yesterday