👀 Check out the July 2022 Composing Competition Livestream! kzread.info/dash/bejne/fqemzbJpmq6saKQ.html 👉 "TM Factory" is in fact Adrián Terán: kzread.info

@gregryan3293

Жыл бұрын

Hey Ryan and the other composers, I'd like to begin making compositions such as these, but would like some advice on the process. Do you all orchestrate the music in a notation software (finale, musescore, etc.), and then switch to a DAW, or do you start in a DAW? Do some DAWs have a notation capability or view, or is there come compatibility between certain notation and DAW softwares? A basic video on the 'mechanics' of creating a first piece would be super helpful for those starting out!

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

@@gregryan3293 If I have time I'll start in Dorico and then move to Logic. If I don't have time I'll just jump right into Logic! As far as I know Dorico is the best notation software with DAW capabilities, but it's still not on par with Cubase or Logic for production

@guillaumesaintgilles3270

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach Hello Ryan, would you consider making a video showing the process from a written score in Dorico to a finalised logic mockup ? I think this could interest many of us. Thank you so much for this great channel.

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

@@guillaumesaintgilles3270 yes at some point I will!

Man I would have thought these were great pieces but upon hearing your analysis , I can see where improvement can take place. To all the folks that did not win, be encouraged we learn from doing.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Notwithstanding that my piece was one of those reviewed (Cloudpeak village), I genuinely found the whole discussion of each piece valuable and insightful. There are great moments across all the pieces, but its great to hear your thoughts on translating from "nice idea" to production ready. My personal takeaways: 1. Avoid the gimmicky sound effects unless you are really really going to focus on its place in the music (they were in key though!! 😁) 2. Spend more time on intrument mixing balance and position (I use BBCSO and tend to leave everything in default position except lead instruments). I liked the observation "12 violins would be louder" - something I've no real world experience of - I need to work on this. I need to think on that percussion though. I need to spend more time on the mix 3. Common theme in this video - make your lead your lead!!! Given the number of times you said that in this video - perhaps a video on use of supporting parts? 4. "These are two separate pieces". I agree, yes (I was looking to bring variety and may have overdone it), but I can partly explain it in my video version kzread.info/dash/bejne/fG2AqKqNipfPl5s.html. My background includes playing marches in a silver band. These pieces commonly go between very distinct sections , closing them off pretty finally (e.g. the amazing Slaidburn kzread.info/dash/bejne/qYihzJuSgqa0mpM.html ). I think that's where I get that desire from! (Also happy to hear how Slaidburn is doing it better!). I will consider how to up the tension there. 5. Reverb - haha - last time I got lambasted for having a very dry sound, I've probably gone over the top the other way this time 6. Great point on the samples and the lag on the more punctuated hits. I probably need to be less lazy here, and more importantly I think, train the ear. I can here it when you point it out, I was NOT hearing it when mixing originally. 7. Mastering level (whoops! - this is a really easy one to get right too) Again, thanks so much for your time!

@mrbencker1074

Жыл бұрын

on the mixing thing, search for help while making it. Helps a lot when i'm really involved in composing and i kinda can't really tell if the volumes are good so i just go into discord and stream to some friend and it helps a lot.

@fredrikhelland8194

Жыл бұрын

Hi Paul!

@vikingbeard

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for your lovely music, I'd rather listen to this than any modern music, like rap, pop or guy falsetto singing with acoustic guitar. He probably had good points, but wish he also had focused on what made the music good. And better play the whole piece before analyzing it. Every time he stopped to tell what didn't make it work was so annoying as I'd rather continue listening to the lovely music 😀

This was exactly what we needed. These step by step critiques let you really learn and be aware of the things that make or break a piece. I also work with with kind of harsh samples so those tips helps. Don't apologize die pausing, each pause is a lesson. Probably one of the best videos so far for me, lots of tips for amateur composers.

Idk why, but the phrase "capturing music in a postcard" was really insightful for me :3

Watching this video is like pulling a splinter out of my hand: it's going to hurt, but it's going to be good for me. Thank you for your valid, honest constructive criticisms; we need more of those in our world.

The main issue for me with these pieces is just that none of them have enough clear motifs/themes. The only one that suck in my head after watching the video is the winning submission.

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

I think rhythm might be the key

@KutiaMoyoMusic

5 ай бұрын

I totally agree! I actually have that same complaint about tons of more "professional-level" music, though, too. I think this is the number one reason (among many) why John Williams is the greatest filmscore composer of all time.

I didn't enter the competition but I've learnt so much from listening to the critique on these which I would have thought were very strong candidates. Wow, writing good music is going to be hard, but thanks to people like you who give us the benefit of your experience for free then at least some will make it. I don't often comment much but the information you gave here is what people need. Thank You.

I've learned a ton from this feedback video. Thanks to you and those who provided their music for that purpose!

Thank you so much! I think I noticed the exact same deficiencies in each of these pieces, but I probably couldn't have picked out specifically what needed improvement. Thanks for helping clarify the specific issues - and also thanks so much to the participants who were willing to be critiqued publicly like this! I think you guys have helped my composing out a lot.

So what I got from this is that it isn't enough to have a cool musical idea. There's a lot of perspiration that must follow the inspiration.

Thank you so much Ryan, this feedback help's me a lot! And I definitly have to get better samples because I'm working with free libraries 😅 Thanks a lot and will be there for the next one!

Thank you Ryan. It's really helpfull, because with the finalists the feedback seems only positive things to say about the pieces (and they deserved it, of course). These observations are really great to see what happened to the rest of the submissions, and take them to grow as composers. What would be interesting, or somehow enlightening for me, as long as you can´t give feedback on 700 entries, is to know how far in the selection our entries reached. I mean, did my (or anyone) submission fell at first hearing, or at least it get some oportunity for consideration. Thank you again.

Thank you so much for those feedbacks. It's really valuable !

Analyses like these are extremely useful, would love to see more of this in the future

Why is my entry not in the "Why These Music Entries Were NOT Finalists" ;) Just sending you a smile. Thank you for those wonderful contests and for taking the time to give us feedback. 👍

@mithramusic5909

Жыл бұрын

Ryan added a second layer of competition: whose entries make the follow-up roast video

Very useful information

That was very educational, thanks!

@RyanLeach

9 ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

This was so informative and helpful. Thank you, and thank you to those who put themselves out there to (constructive) critiques.

I REALLY enjoyed this video, and I'm very grateful to the folks who volunteered for the critique. Even the comments had some insightful discussions...like the back and forth with Avgeek Aviation. Bottom line there...I've listened to way too many folks (not just you Ryan) emphasize that composition has to be there but is far from the only metric that today's composers are measured by. It just makes so much sense to me that the audience for compositions that don't have any kind of performance whether they be from live instruments or electronic is small indeed to non-existent and from that point of view the production of the track and not just it's structural composition is ALWAYS going to be one of the things that matter.

'If we reduced the melody to whole notes would we still get a satisfying shape?' That’s a really good question.

good video Ryan 👍 I believe it was a very good idea to give this feedback.

Thanks for the valuable insights. They're truly pearls of wisdom to many of us! I applaud all those composers who took the time to learn to read music and write it too. I am an electronic musician who plays by ear and who uses a DAW to fix my mistakes and to try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I love to make music, although to the professional it's hardly classified as such, I keep trying and that's all that I can do. Sometimes I am told that people like my music. And that's music to my ears!

A little late to this video, but I loved your demonstration of how to make sampled instruments sound more alive! Sounds like a great topic for a full video

I only compose for choirs so would never even consider trying to compose an orchestral score. So impressed by the quality of the submissions. When I've entered choral composition contests the scores are submitted in various ways. Some are actual choirs singing, some are a 4 voice demo track (which I do) and some simply use the midi or "Ah" sounds from a program like Sibelius. For your contest, the quality of the finished piece seems to be just as large a component of the judging criteria. A brilliant score may not sound great using only an audio export from Sibelius but would none the less be brilliant. This is not a criticism, but rather an observation/curiosity question. {Keep in mind that I did not read the criteria (as there is no chance I'll be entering!)

@mithramusic5909

Жыл бұрын

I think that's appropriate given the context. Ryan Leach speaks to a lot of independent, still-learning film and video game score composers. People at that level really need to be able to do it all--the writing, the arranging, the mixing, and the mastering. It's a tough challenge which I think is why he has such a good following.

This is incredibly insightful...

Thank you for your expertise and time. This is the kind of orchestration/composition class I tried to take when I was in college. Those classes were only open to composition students.

I am about to have my 68th birthday, and I'm still learning, Thank you Mr. Leach, you provide remarkable insight.

This is probably one of the most educational videos I've watched on your channel! I have learned a ton from you, but what is really special about this video, in my opinion, is that it shows "how not to do it", as opposed to "how to do it", and then, in the end, shows a song that applies the concepts correctly. Jacob's song in the end hit like a sledgehammer (in the best possible way!) and ending the video that way really hit home what was problematic in the previous example songs. You're a fantastic teacher! (Also I'd like to thank everyone who submitted their tracks for criticism by Ryan so people like me can learn from them! Takes guts, I'd be too shy to do so!)

Thanks for the advice, I did not enter the competition but I will listen to my own compositions to see if I make the same mistakes.

Music being a postcard is such a valuable piece of advice here

10:58 that can be good advice literally. A breath controller can make those dynamics changes so easy to make them feel "right". MPE such as a Continuum can do that too, but a breath controller is much less expensive. At the very least, you can use an expression pedal. Keyboard keys are on/off with a single velocity value. Most orchestral instruments aren't like that. See 25:40 for further clarification

wow! 09:50 EQing the sampled vst is totally surprising me! I've never thought about this efficient way.

I love your vids. You should analyze some Maplestory soundtracks, the ones that really stand out for me are the Kerning City Theme, Temple of Time and Cygnus Garden. Personally, they are really inspiring for me when it comes to learning how to compose.

I think this video is gold!!! Thankyou coz mach people in KZread Talk about to do. But this video is like what not do with exemple great video

9:57 I thought he was gonna straight out drop the Augurs of Spring from ROS 😱

"To review 700 pieces is impossible" Tell that to Mike Verta lol

15:10 reminds me of the Simpsons. Seriously though, great analysis, Ryan. This provides a lot of insight on how I can improve my own work.

@carlospazo

Жыл бұрын

The whole piece reminds me of "back to the future" 😅

Didn't participate this time but I would make many similar mistakes. Would use sheep sounds totally, don't care :D 4:27 There is Ryan's video, which I can't find now, about teacher telling him his song doesn't have cadences - it should be like talking where sentences end with a period. Maybe Paul watched it too but overemphasized. I would probably make that mistake too. 5:37 In last review it was mentioned there should be lot of music, but Ryan also said - don't make it too different. My idea was to start with 3/4 - hero enters the village and then switch to 4/4 to describe action that could happen there and end with 3/4. That might not be a good idea then? I guess it depends. 12:04 maybe they wanted to achieve retro RPG sound? 17:32 MIR? 25:48 I remember Anne-Kathrin saying it's hard for double reeds to change dynamics. Maybe she just meant don't go overboard though. I have no clue, just want to learn. 27:30 Interesting point. 34:58 So either support melody or have just pedal tone, don't have something in-between.

@jameseverett4976

Жыл бұрын

On the last item there: [34:58] Alan Belkin said something about that, to the effect of: make sure whatever it is you do is clear in it's intention. I think that's most often what plagues amateurs. They may be trying to straddle a line between 1 thing and another. We "noodle" alot and try to keep what we thought was good even if it wasn't a deliberate attempt to write a particular type of line [melody, pedal, background melody, rhythm pattern, etc.]. Amateurs don't think in terms of clear planes, that act distinctly and contrast enough to tell them apart. That's what I hear so much in these "didn't make it" entries. Everything is kind of jumbled together, and anything but the main melody or instrument seems lost in a vague 'soup'.

Surprised the last piece didn’t make the final cut. Can’t wait to hear the winner.

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

Not sure if sarcastic or not, so just to clarify for anyone reading this the last track was the winner!

@MuzixMaker

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach Ryan, sorry! Definitely not meant as sarcasm but as praise for the high level of what I thought was not a finalist. My comment was meant to say, if that excellent and well executed piece didn’t make it, the winner has to be beyond superb. Apologies again! Really enjoy your channel, keep it up.

@martijnvanbeek4387

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach Hahaha, surprise! Good winner for that matter. I was going to wait for some criticism from you Ryan, but that didn't follow (and I couldn't find any supporting criticism myself either). Glad to hear Jacob de Graaf did win the contest. Congrats from the Netherlands Jacob!

@llamaking1071

Жыл бұрын

@@MuzixMaker But that track WAS the winner.

@MuzixMaker

Жыл бұрын

@@llamaking1071 read my reply- I didn’t know that when I made original comment

I m not understanding a very Key point: how do you make the samples more realistic with "breathing"? Are you using a physical midi controller to just change volume or Is It something else?

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

Actual pauses between phrases, even just very short, and using MIDI CC 1 and 11 for dynamic range

@algorix8420

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach thx a lot, now i have a lot to experiment with

What does Ryan mean when he talks about the placing of the instruments? I don t understand how I should mimic or change the position of my instruments in a DAW

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

You can change the perceived location of an instrument with panning, EQ (far instruments are duller) and reverb

@algorix8420

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach Yeah that sounds reasonable. But how should I change reverb? Maybe this Is a too specific question but It really intrigues me as I Ve never thought about this use of reverb

@ericktellez7632

Жыл бұрын

@@algorix8420 it does depend on the track but the basics are the size and decay of the reverb, a far back signal in a mix with reverb will have a larger reverb and a longer decay compared with the other instruments. Take out some of the high freq with a low pass and add a large room preset in the reverb and change the decay of the reverb to what works in your tempo just make sure that decay is longer that the other reverb you might be using, you can also use a reverb send track only for instruments that will go to the back of the mix and for the front instruments use delays instead of reverb.

@algorix8420

Жыл бұрын

@@ericktellez7632 you would actually go for delay instead of reverb in that case? Man this Is All new information to me, are there videos or something where I can see or learn more about this?

@ericktellez7632

Жыл бұрын

@@algorix8420 check out “The mixing engineer’s handbook” by Bobby Owsinki, amazing primer on mixing, EQ, reverb, compression and delays.

More feedback than Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock!

I feel that half the objections were with production quality, not with the composing itself. Is that what I’m supposed to take away from this? (Not a submitter btw, just confused.)

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

That’s a great question. I believe the music is what we hear, not what we’re supposed to imagine we are hearing. So yea when you are producing something, production value matters. Now some people confuse this with “only production value matters” or “you can just buy expensive plugins and win” but that’s ridiculous. A boring chord progression or aimless melody can’t hide behind nice samples. Neither can muddy voicings, or a poor balance of contrast and cohesion. Sure good gear will give you some advantages, only some though. But yes how something sounds is a factor.

@fredrikhelland8194

Жыл бұрын

​@@RyanLeach I see your point. I'm mostly doing arranging, and my experience is that sheet music is king (that is, real performers don't read expression maps). One of my main struggles is that I'm often blindsided by how nice things sound in the notation software, which doesn't translate to live rehearsal, and I'm not sure how helpful more beautiful playback would be (or prehaps i just have untruthful VSTs?).

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

@@fredrikhelland8194 Ah that's interesting, a bit of a different problem. I wouldn't bother with high production value if the end result was to record live, unless I needed to sell a director on the music first or something. Not sure about the notation software being too good though!

@fredrikhelland8194

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach I haven’t bothered to invest in anything beyond the default library of Dorico pro (Halion SE I believe). So far, what I’m missing is mostly a wider range of pre-defined playing techniques, so I wouldn’t have to struggle reading up as much.

@jameseverett4976

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach "....what we hear, not what we’re supposed to imagine we are hearing". This describes perfectly every "wanna-be" who is too proud to consider improving their craft. Not many of them here, but back in the old "Broadjam" convention days the place was crawling with them.

But anything is possible

The funny thing is, to 95% of the population, these would be “very good” entries. If any of those were in a show or movie, the audience would never know they had any issues at all. These critiques are for the 5% who are actual composers. (Not saying that’s bad, just a perspective).

This would have been so much better with scores submitted, it is about the notes and dynamics not the tones created by various electronic sounds!

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

Do you evaluate a painting by the artist’s intentions or what’s on the canvas?

@joejolliffe

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach do you evaluate a painting based on the quality of the paint?

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

If it makes for a better painting

@joejolliffe

Жыл бұрын

@@RyanLeach yes it is a nice bonus if it makes the painting better but not what you should judge the painting by, by applying your logic a handwritten score by any great composer, Ravel, Mahler, Prokofiev, Holst, is worthless until it is actually performed as this has no paint just a pencil sketch underneath the painting?

@RyanLeach

Жыл бұрын

Ha that’s an interesting philosophical question honestly. Is a score with no performance still music? But anyway my biggest takeaway from this exercise was that people don’t put enough care and emphasis into rhythm, production was but one part of the discussion.

Aww come on, Ryan, don't go that route, don't make your titles and thumbnails clickbaity...

@mithramusic5909

Жыл бұрын

That's not click bait, it's literally the most concise summary of the actual content that I can possibly come up with

@Tordek

Жыл бұрын

@@mithramusic5909 nah, when the thumbnail is "fix this" and you have to watch to know what "this" is, that's clickbait

@mithramusic5909

Жыл бұрын

@@Tordek Clickbait is when the content doesn't deliver or doesn't match up with the hype of the description or thumbnail. I'm not seeing that at all. I'm seeing the thumbnail and title as perfectly fitting of what the video is about. I would agree with you more if the whole video was about that one single "fix this" and it could've been summarized in one or two words in the thumbnail. That's not the case at all here though

@Tordek

Жыл бұрын

@@mithramusic5909 Sure, it's not clickbait if it's not from the Clickbait region in France. Call it whatever you like, then, if you think a semantic technicism makes it OK. It's a thumbnail that says "fix THIS" without saying what "this" is so you can't know what it is about without clicking the video.

@mithramusic5909

Жыл бұрын

@@Tordek my definition isn't oddly specific, it's what it means. And the video has like twenty fixes, should they have put all of them in the thumbnail? The thumbnail is telling us "this video shows what needed to be fixed in the failed submissions." The point of the thumbnail isn't to teach you music.