Remember that every episode of Within Reason is available on streaming platforms like Spotify and Apple Podcasts!

@DCminh-pe9wf

7 ай бұрын

Havent watch the video yet, but Isnt satacon and satanism like, extremely anti christian?Like these people open their event by ripping up the bible, you cant take this seriously I get that we're atheist and we tend to get in the way of other religious people but i dont see a reason why we need a satirical religion that exist to piss off Christian. It just paint us in a bad light

@dionysis_

7 ай бұрын

@@DCminh-pe9wf As I am listening to it I get the impression that Alex agrees with you 😄 I do too. The whole think is 👎

@togawearer2799

7 ай бұрын

and on testimony for all of those that need to need it from me, your........

@harman1957

7 ай бұрын

​@@DCminh-pe9wfandrew addressed this in his video and it is somewhat convincing. You can check that out

@raya.p.l5919

7 ай бұрын

Jesus power ❤ warning it is intense..all will receive Level 1 portion of youth longevity digestion an self beauty Jesus energy wash tonight at 11 07 eastren.

I like Drews perspective because it is more psychological and sociological. We don't get that all too often in this community. With Alex being philosophically minded we are getting more bases covered with them both.

@angusmcculloch6653

7 ай бұрын

I agree. Would you accept person X destroying a pride flag and saying it was not an anti-pride message? Answer: "If they do what the satanic temple does I might accept it." Pretty awesome to create an exception that only one organization can claim.

@capitalisa

7 ай бұрын

Drew? Satanists? I guess, if you are deluded and like pseudointellectuals.

@Cats-2079

7 ай бұрын

​@@angusmcculloch6653that example would make more sense if the person destroying the flag, spent their entire lives being accused of destroying flags. And no matter what they did they were still called a flag burner. So then they finally decide to burn flags because they will be called flag burners no matter what.

@angusmcculloch6653

7 ай бұрын

@@Cats-2079 So you didn't get to the part where he literally defended burning a Pride flag--but only if you're the Satanic Temple. Just extraordinarily poor logic. Where I come from, we call it 'shilling'.

@HermaeusMoron

7 ай бұрын

​@@Cats-2079by that logic, if someone is being called a pedophile unjustly, and no matter what they do they are still going to be called a pedo, than they might as well molest some kid.

These guys both have channels that I appreciate for their calmness, rationality and kindness and both of them together have my brain in a weird chill-overdrive mode that I'm not sure I can handle.

@katinapac-baez5083

7 ай бұрын

Chill-overdrive.... yes, this is the descriptor I needed.

@desireepereira6

7 ай бұрын

Sameee..got me all excited 😆

@fukpoeslaw3613

7 ай бұрын

You can't handle the chill? (Mumbling: weirdo atheists)

@delikatessbruhe9843

7 ай бұрын

@@fukpoeslaw3613 Well yeah, how do you get your activity level dialed down below zero?

@jd4121

7 ай бұрын

Drew is much kinder; Alex is a centrist with some reactionary positions (aligned with Dawkins, for example). He’s rather anti-woke. Look at his line of questioning of Drew.

Cosmic Skeptic is speaking to Genetically Modified Skeptic but they keep referring to some kids named Drew and Alex. 🤔

@zacharyshort384

7 ай бұрын

It's their alters that only manifest after copious doses of psychedelics.

I am honestly amazed at Alex's ability to be so calm no matter who he is talking to or what questions he is asking.

@20july1944

7 ай бұрын

We'll see how calm he is facing God.

@lostzephyr2191

7 ай бұрын

@@20july1944 Is god so petty, vindictive, childish, and insecure that he desperately needs people to believe he exists and will punish them with eternal torture if they don't?

@DonAlonzo

7 ай бұрын

​@@20july1944you mean your all-benevolent sky fairy wouldn't be benevolent with a man who used his intellect to his full extent? What a lovely celestial dictator you've got

@mstalcup

7 ай бұрын

@@20july1944Alex has already faced and defeated that paper tiger invented by ignorant savages.

@shassett79

7 ай бұрын

​@20july1944 Ahura Mazda is going to hate you.

Strange that nobody of the two is bringing up humor, comedy, trolling and satire… for me, those are absolutely essential to understand modern satanism.

As a very sporadic viewer of both those channels, I won't admit how long it took me till I stopped confusing them with each other

@terrlaw328

7 ай бұрын

@dreri3738. Thank you …. I thought I was the only one. Just got through checking right before I read your comment.

@mlthornton1

7 ай бұрын

Oh no racist comment!!! Run away! Very very bad!!!! Oh my!!!!!!!

@Pythonzzz

7 ай бұрын

Alex is the thin white guy with brown hair and facial hair wearing a black t-shirt 😜

@Hungry807seat

6 ай бұрын

@@Pythonzzz🤣😂I love this comment, clever.

I still can't help but feel like using the term, "Satanism," is too polarizing to be efficient. I understand that people who identify as Satanic want to "reclaim" this term from the far right. Although, to base your entire identity on the negation of the other side feels, once again, polarizing. Our society is desperate for genuine social discourse, not another divisive political term. Imagine the far right were to start identifying as, "fascists." When asked why they chose such a polarizing term, they response, "The left wing calls us fascists, so we're taking the term from the left. We donate to human rights organizations, so once we explain we're not *really* fascists, they're ignorant if they call this move bizarre." It's almost certain to still cause more harm than good.

@Perditions

7 ай бұрын

Thanks for saying this. Sometimes, atheist comment sections are very alienating. It's good to know I'm not the only person who doesn't think anything anti-Christian = good. That's not why I'm an atheist.

@kaseykohler1490

7 ай бұрын

The satanist doing more goodwill than fascists so I think it’s more about actions than anything. If you get triggered by terms then maybe you need to work on that. Whether left or right.

@UberOtaku001

7 ай бұрын

The name was originally used by TST because they originated as a vehicle to legally push back against special privileges for Christianity above other religions. They picked the symbol most likely to make people angry and when your opposition is emotional they will slip up and make it easier to win in court.

@existential_o

7 ай бұрын

@@kaseykohler1490 What are you yapping about… 1) Satanist doing more goodwill than fascists isn’t even remotely relevant to my original comment 2) No one’s getting triggered… If you equivocate a critique with being “triggered,” then you have some demons you need to work through

@sdrawkcabUK

7 ай бұрын

it's a childish taunting of Christians, hidden under the cloak of 'it's just symbolic'. It's not even original as Anton LaVey did the same thing back in the 1960s. Pretty sophomoric stuff tbh.

You always get the best guests. Been loving within reason

Great interview/conversation! You've both grown so much and I'm glad I've grown with and because of you.

Been waiting for ya'll to do this topic! My favorite duo

This is episode 42 so Drew has a big responsibility this time, he better have the answer to everything

@PurplePolaroid22

7 ай бұрын

😂😂 I didn't get it the first time, now i understand.

@ktiemz

7 ай бұрын

pfft. I bet they don't even know where their towels are ;p

@pineapplepenumbra

7 ай бұрын

@@ktiemz So many hitchers just don't pay attention to basic towel discipline...

@Terrestrial_Biological_Entity

7 ай бұрын

Você aqui?

@belialord

7 ай бұрын

@@Terrestrial_Biological_Entity Eu conheci o Joe pelo Cameron e o Cameron pelo Alex kkkk

It's funny how Drew sometimes used "we" to talk about the satanists. He even corrected himself the first time, saying he's not a satanist but he kept making the same mistake again and again. This is not meant to be an accusation. Just an observation.

@tiyenin

7 ай бұрын

Boy, Alex's biases in his line of questioning were nowhere near subtle.

@danielchallenger5640

7 ай бұрын

@@tiyenin not sure how your comment relates to mine tbh

@gabri41200

7 ай бұрын

Im not a satanist myself but i would make the same mistake in the place of Drew lol. Probably because i can relate so much to the idea of opposing to christianity. I don't believe in anything supernatural, so I find it very funny to see christians hating on things that don't exist. For example, the comments in the music video "Demons"

@Jaryism

6 ай бұрын

It’s called a Freudian slip, he is one. He was even asked later on why he doesn’t just become one.. he didn’t have a response, just because, optics. He agrees 100% with all their deplorable shit yet he wants to sit and moralize us.. fuck off kid.

@thinkislamcheckmychannel

5 ай бұрын

Freudian slip. Well find out on Judgment Day what his true feelings are.

It is a pleasure seeing you both in one frame. I've been following you both pretty much since your early days. This was a great interview Alex, you pretty much asked the questions that ran through my head at the time of seeing Drews video about The Satanic Con. I'm satisfiedish from his answers, but some raised more questions. I guess I'll figure them out on my own. Hopefully you both have another go in the near future. It's good to see young people using their brains for a change.

I appreciate a debate and interview where both parties are being respectful and hearing each other out.

This is THE collab of the year! Thank you

Great interviewing Alex. I like that you always try to keep the discussion balanced and argue in favor of the opposition to challenge the speaker’s point. Also a great characteristic is you rarely interrupt people. You understand you are the interviewer not interviewee. That’s why i like your podcasts

yay drew is back

I loved this conversation. I disagree that the destroying of the symbols of oppression was only that. TST does things to be intentionally provocative and controversial for attention, and defacing those items served that purpose. I wanted to also comment that I'm reminded of Dairy Queen when I see the wr logo. 😁

@cobrasys

7 ай бұрын

I'd agree, and from what Drew said here, I think he would too. It _is_ meant as attention-grabbing and provocative, but it's not _only_ that.

@johnwheeler3071

7 ай бұрын

Gay pride and satanism are cry bully organisations attempting to destroy Christianity. At least bog standard atheism is honest.

@Jaryism

6 ай бұрын

So that’s his theory, they’re just trolls and provocateurs? Not that they’re only in defiance, anger, and rejection of the Bible, Christ, and everything it represents so they can live openly in sin with no moral objective standard ordained by God? I’m thinking the ladder.. why? Because this is what they’re doing blatantly in their protests and politically…. They DO the Bailey…. GMS comes and presents the Motte. He’s a lying pos

Great interview! Love the questions you asked.

Loved this! Thanks guys 👊🏽

I think something was missed when discussing the "desecrating" of the Bible and the Thin Blue Line symbols, which I suspect was due to Alex's distance from US politics in particular. In the US, the Bible and the authority of the police are overtly leveraged to perpetrate oppression, in a way that may not be so true or obvious in the UK (I don't know). Both symbols are literally used as idols to castigate and deny rights from minoritized groups. In particular, the Thin Blue Line isn't just any old "symbol of the police", it's specifically a symbol used to rally support *against* those fighting for the rights of oppressed people (the people of color who are discriminated against and targeted by the police). The Thin Blue Line can be thought of as being specifically positioned against the Black Lives Matter movement. By tearing up those symbols, I imagine the Satanists are saying "these are the things you worship; these things stand for oppression that's as bad as you think *Satan* is, meanwhile *we're* doing actual good" (like Jesus, as Drew said)

@peggylinden8146

7 ай бұрын

I totally agree. I think Alex was unaware of the uniquely political nature of those 2 symbols in the US.

@amiborabee

7 ай бұрын

specifically on the bible... i just don't think it's a good move to rip up the literal symbol of goodness of a religion. it's a slap to the face to christians, even one's who may support left-wing views. it's like taking christ and shitting on it. Of course, you can try to justify it and find explanations... but tearing it up "as a symbol of oppression" can easily be paralleled with "fuck christianity bc it is oppresive" (which would be correct imo). It just doesn't seem to be compatible, ripping up a symbol of religion but at them same time being like "but we respect all religions!" (and it seems slightly unnecessary)

@danw5760

7 ай бұрын

You're so under the influence of propaganda

@Perditions

7 ай бұрын

🙄 Jesus. I'm an atheist and you creep me out. Atheists were supposed to be able to see through dogma. You know Alex wouldn't have been able to ignore BLM protests occurring in the UK. I cannot imagine what the world must be like to you.

@ashwinisarah

7 ай бұрын

Loved this back and forth! Thank you both of you! I always find it interesting how your opposition to religion is so different from my own.... I like to think I'm an atheist, but I'm probably not. I mean I don't actively practise any kind of faith...I don't know if I might or might not in the future... I was born Hindu, married into a devout anglican Christian family and was baptised, embraced a social form of Buddhism for about 10 years, studied to be a hypnotherapist and drifted into this insane space of transpersonal psychology, then almost made veganism my religion and now I'm exploring vedic philosophy and digging into consciousness and reality narratives. Perhaps I'm seeking...but I've always been free to believe in whatever seemed to interest me and I've always been free to change my beliefs and the rituals surrounding them! (Except veganism - that's pretty much the core I operate from) I think monotheism is peculiarly toxic and intolerant and so atheism is a really big deal. From my polytheist perspective, God lies beyond the appearances of Buddha Jesus, Krishna, Allah, Moses or Zarathustra. They simply are the finger pointing to God and we have mistaken them for the real thing. It's the blind man and the elephant story...each one insisting his perception to be undeniably accurate, and so it is...yet none of the blind men will ever know the majesty and the might of the elephant! Polytheism allows me to say this is a tusk and the tusk is an amazing, astounding thing in itself, but it is also apart of something so utterly incredible that I couldn't even conceive of it. And so I have no need to insist that my perception can be the only perception. I personally am very curious about other people's religious experiences, simply because it's a beautiful and incandescent piece of tile in a humongous mosaic! But most people's religious experiences sound either just plain, and often sadly, delusional or patently fake. It feels as though religion is a really awkward fit, anachronistic for our times.. it's counterintuitive in our world. A good practical RELIGION might allow all beliefs to coexist - monotheism, polytheism, materialism, atheism, animism, etc underpinned by the wisdom that the only worthwhile thing you can possibly do in your short life, is serve your fellow man. I guess I'd salute and cheer the satanists for adopting a Christ like attitude towards the disenfranchised... and even though I live in India I do see how organised religion and police forces are not so different from each other. Both are no longer available to protect the vulnerable, although that exactly was their founding mandate.

O'Connor & McCoy these guys are magnificent! 💎

@pabloandres6179

7 ай бұрын

Pseudo intellectuals

@anthonypasslow1933

7 ай бұрын

Add Steven Woodward to this couple to create the unholy trinity!

@MrMoleHole

7 ай бұрын

@@pabloandres6179 Nah that is Jordan Peterson

@Auryce

7 ай бұрын

@@pabloandres6179I’m morbidly curious about who you consider an honest intellectual, but I’m also feeling pretty confident you’re going to list right wing grifters.

@svyatoyaleksnevskiy

7 ай бұрын

@@pabloandres6179 Could you expand on your opinion? If you do, I promise I won't turn this into some pointless argument.

My two favorite skeptics reunited again!

I appreciate both these guys, and I appreciate this conversation. I will say that I find Alex’s reasoning concerning the ripping up of a Bible to be more convincing and logical. Drew’s defense didn’t quite add up for me. Great show, though.

@cole141000

7 ай бұрын

Same

@AlexsGoogleAccount

7 ай бұрын

Other way around for me. Alex interpreted Drew's argument as 'so you're saying that ripping up a Bible isn't an anti-Christian act because they donate to charities and do things that are kind of Christlike?' and that is complete nonsense. Alex made a valid comparison that the Bible is still the symbol of Christianity and made a compelling comparison to ripping up a Pride flag. But Drew's argument that the Bible has been a tool of oppression against these people is true. And his examples of the types of charitable work was not as a justification that they have the moral high ground to tear up a Bible but that the work they do is in alignment with their official stance that Christianity has been weaponized for harm. Drew's argument is that their messaging and actions outside of the Bible tearing is aligned with their stated reason for tearing the Bible.

@Noise_floorxx

7 ай бұрын

@@AlexsGoogleAccountthis

@Illuminati0101

7 ай бұрын

@@AlexsGoogleAccount But if someone burned a pride flag and said they only did it because they think pride has been weaponized for harm would you be okay with that?

@OldNewsIsGoodNews

7 ай бұрын

@@AlexsGoogleAccount Same. Or rather, I should say, they *both* rubbed me the wrong way for different reasons. Drew did strike me as trying a bit too hard/doing some gymnastics on questions where he probably should have said "Hey, I'm not the best person to answer that, maybe you should ask people more directly involved." But Alex *severely* misrepresented some of Drew's statements in rather obvious, egregious ways (e.g. Acting like "context informs meaning" - which is clearly what Drew was trying to get at, even if inarticulately - is the same thing as "X thing can inherently only have one meaning, but you're saying that other actions can negate that.") To me, while I felt like Drew was uncharacteristically inarticulate in that instance, Alex's line of questioning was yet another instance in a recent-ish trend I've been noticing that has bothered me: Namely that Alex seems to *really, really, really* want to like Christianity to the point that he's willing to skate over certain problematic aspects of Christianity or lob softballs when dealing with apologists (while doing the opposite with atheists) and to kinda twist meanings in very obvious ways when dealing with arguments against Christianity. I mean, of course I'm not a mind-reader, so I can't say for sure what's going through his head, but that's sure what it feels like with the way I've heard him talk in a lot of recent videos.

The most popular atheist youtuber and the second most popular atheist youtuber! What a treat! c:

@Picklethatiswild

6 ай бұрын

Echo chamber

What an interview! O'Connor seems to always ask the most interesting question possible

Yes!!! So excited to see this

Hi Alex. JJL a very big fan of yours. My own beliefs are that I believe there is more to this world based on many many experiences. But I love your strong willed truth seeking self. Never let anyone change you. You have my support always. I know you have patreon but ive never used that. Can i donate here on youtube. I listen to your content. You are the man. Coming from JJL, a believer in supernatural but who aligns himself with no religion. Your friendship with Drew and Justin Brierly is a legendary feat no other can say. I also really liked your premier unbelievable interview. Even having the professor returning to say you were really really right ❤ ❤

I like that Drew deciphers the difference between a Sexist who doesn’t want to change the definition and Satanists turning their term on its head. It makes more sense to me now.

@littlebitofhope1489

7 ай бұрын

Yes, it's the difference between embracing what the word stands for and completely reframing it and embracing the NEW meaning.

@jonathanstensberg

7 ай бұрын

Ah yes, Satanists turn the term on its head by...actually venerating the traditional conception of Satan, promoting traditional Satanic iconography, participating in traditional rituals honoring Satan...

@speegee2202

7 ай бұрын

What if you were a supporter of Black Lives Matter and wanted to start calling yourselves “terrorists”, because some people already call you terrorists, so by calling yourself that you’ll be turning it on its head. I think Drew (though he’s great) doesn’t really meaningfully acknowledge how people calling themselves satanists is bad PR for the rest of the atheist community and those who are on the fence about their religion. Would a Christian be more willing to talk to someone who calls themselves an Athiest or a Satanist? Edit: I think the analogy is alright because just like people who support Black Lives Matter don’t actually identify as terrorists, it’s just a bad word they’ve been called. Similarly these “Satanists” don’t believe in Satan or worship evil or anything like that, most of their ideals are humanist. I like the political work that the Satanic Temple does, but it does exist (in some part) out of spite towards christians. Secular humanist groups exist that fill similar roles. And if you think that it’s fine that this is offensive because it has every right to be, because Christianity has had a massive political and cultural effect on society for 1000s of years, where do your values really lie? If you really believe that people can change their minds (like me a former Protestant Christian) then you should be in favor of opening up dialogue with people we disagree with to actually communicate our differences. Calling yourself a satanist (when you’re an Atheist) will only worsen the communication you could have with others.

@iwinyoulose9427

7 ай бұрын

@@speegee2202what an odd example to give

@littlebitofhope1489

7 ай бұрын

@@speegee2202 You conveniently left out the REFRAMING part. Plus, who TF CARES if a Christian is willing to talk? All they do is preach anyway. Words change meanings. For example I think you are nice, but I use the original meaning of the word.

your ability to ask difficult questions is absolutely phenomenal. I'm impressed

I love the questions you ask Alex!!

Alex is an amazing interviewer. The questions are so challenging that I feel he’s trying to hammer skeptic against the wall. But I’ve heard a few of Alex’s interviews and he’s like that with everyone, every side of the political spectrum. So impressive to take on these roles that are as challenging as can be, within the bounds of reasonable disagreement. I’m convinced that I have no idea what his real positions are.

@mathiasrennochaves3533

7 ай бұрын

He is an atheist, who sees some wisdom in christianism. He is very much in favor of most animal rights movement arguments however does not believes that animals have the same moral worth as humans. He is a classical liberal, strongly in favor of freedom of speech. Definitely not a Marxist, pos-modernist, communist or even woke but he is in favor of freedom to behave in any way that is consented by the ones affected by it.

@daousdava

7 ай бұрын

comment of the year

@tiyenin

7 ай бұрын

I disagree. His other recent KZread repost of his podcast, with the Christian apologist author, were absolute softballs compared to this interview. He didn't drive home obvious logical gaps stemming from the interviewee's christian-colored glasses. With Drew's interview, it feels like Alex wrote every single question while literally arching his brow and muttering under his breath, "Satanism?? REALLY???"

@johnnkurunziza5012

7 ай бұрын

@@tiyeninbecause he respects Christianity and if you Dont like that so be it?

@HgSpartan

7 ай бұрын

​@tiyenin I think he moderates his questions based on the interviewee. He knew Drew could take hardball questions. If you play hardball with a lot of Christians you'll lose them and they'll become defensive.

You know, I had to look twice at the thumbnail, wondering why there were 2 of him

@luis_g_77

7 ай бұрын

I'm glad they chose different colored earbuds so I can tell them apart

I'm new to Alex. Thanks for spreading truth and knowledge.

Finally some sense in this podcast ;). Love every week!

Yay! I know this is going to be quality content. I always get so excited for this series’ videos. Thanks, Alex!

Love when you two cross over. Such great interview!

Thank you for sharing this entertaining conversation.

This conversation is gonna be 🤘🔥🤘

I think Alex's comparison of the Bible ripping and a Pride flag burning is a useful one for contrast - it's important to think outside our tribe to stay honest. That said, I see two clear ways the acts are different: 1) Context of oppression and hate: Drew alludes to this when discussing the Satanic Temple's charitable acts and the intended purpose of the Bible ripping as anti-oppression. Fundamentalist Christianity is used to restrict the freedom of queer individuals in the US, and even motivates violence against the queer community. The Satanic Temple does not engage in violence against, nor seek to restrict the freedoms of Christians. Though losing their majority preferred status in society feels like an attack to some Christians, this is not equivalent to laws like 'Don't Say Gay' in Florida, which is actual codified stigmatization. In short, there is no broader context of threat or oppression behind Satanists ripping a Bible, but burning a Pride flag can't be separated from the enduring homophobia in society. (Sidebar - this also explains the difference between ripping a Bible and a Qur'an. Both are sacred religious texts that motivate hate and oppression, but a) the Qur'an does not influence US governance and b) Muslims are a minority group in the US and often face discrimination themselves.) 2) Distinction between symbol and subject: In the same way that protesters may burn an American flag or kneel during a flag ceremony without being anti-American, protesters could rip a Bible without being anti-Christian. Granted some viewers will disagree - the act is risky for a movement's P.R., as the examples of SatanCon and Colin Kaepernick demonstrate. But disrespecting a symbol need not be a complete rejection of the subject, but a call to be better, to live up to its ideals. Not all Christians endorse the queer oppression that SatanCon protested, and not all Americans endorse the harsh policing that Kaepernick protested - dramatic demonstrations can call attention to the gap between American or Christian ideals and their reality, and hopefully motivate change. Good discussion gents!

@nicholassherwood5825

7 ай бұрын

Astute

@ananthan8951

7 ай бұрын

Christianity, in itself a belief system based on idolatry and a faith narrative, is an extremely supremacist religion: Especially wherever Christians are obsessed with converting masses of other- faith adherents such as in India. Evangelists are hostile and denigrative, others' deities are "Satanic", and their devotees are destined for hell-fire. Any social or personal vulnerability is preyed upon, and on conversion the former deities of the converts are to be zealously destroyed. Shockingly tribalistic when it is practised in a pluralistic polytheistic civilisation.

@frankvandermerwe1487

7 ай бұрын

Dont really agree with anything you said there to be honest Ripping up a Bible or a symbol of police, then giving money away to charity does not for a second make you a good person . There also seems to a moral grandstanding behind all of this. As much as i am atheist, ripping up a bible for example, would be seen as a direct attack towards christians and their values, propogatibg a cycle of further division and hatred towards each other. It's juvenile. With regrds to quran. How funny that satanists only focus on the Bible and christianity. Islam is oppression in steroids, yet they keep their mouths zipped. Look at how women in islam dominated countries are treated. That is what real oppression is. Comparatively, the satanists claiming they are oppressed, while living in America (probably the least oppressive country in the world) its completely ironic, and in my eyes, exposes them as a bunch of children who dont understand how the world works.

@S.D.323

5 ай бұрын

@@frankvandermerwe1487 I dont know Im sure they focus on islam somewhat and christianity is the more prevelant of the two in america

@matthewbenton2867

16 күн бұрын

I think focusing on the current conditions is narrow sighted and dumb. Christians aren't oppressed right now is a facile and useless observation. What they're afraid of are these seeming statements of intent. These intrinsically intimidating gestures send a message whether you want them to or not. The message is "when the shoe is on the other foot, we'll step on your neck too." It turns out human beings are able to conceive of the future and worry about trending toward a time when people might oppress them.

It annoys me how little people talk about the Church of Satan (LeVeyan Satanism) would love to see one interviewed as they are generally apolitical and would be interesting on a philosophical level as they have a certain amount of meta ethical beliefs as well as humanistic beliefs

@joemiller7082

7 ай бұрын

Because of how long the e CoS has been around, I have always thought that was the more popular of the two. They are completely different than TST.

@kj_H65f

7 ай бұрын

They're honestly just not relevant to the modern discussion. They have much less influence on the discourse and on politics in general. The only similarities between the two is the association with the biblical character Satan, they (as far as I understand) don't even have the same metaphysical concept of that character.

@joemiller7082

7 ай бұрын

@@kj_H65f it wouldn’t have much to do with politics. It’s extremely introspective.

@IamBrixTM

7 ай бұрын

They are not apolitical at all. Pretty right wing and “Ayn Rand”ish as Levey put it himself. He was pretty toxic. TST has a good piece they wrote in their website laying it out

@joemiller7082

7 ай бұрын

@@IamBrixTM the Church of Satans Bible is all about self empowerment. Of course self belief doctrine is going to sound a little like libertarianism. It still doesn’t touch on *actual* politics. It’s a bit silly to associate the CoS with the right wing. Most members, are left wing. Some are also right wing, because it really IS apolitical.

The collab I didnt know I needed

I like that you were pushing Drew on the idea that the Satanic symbolism may just be divisive and unproductive. He answered really well each time and I can totally understand when he says that on the surface it seems superficially "anti-christian" but isn't if people give it a little more thought and research. However, I think the problem is that most people are going to take these things at face-value, especially religious people. They likely won't take the time to do any further research after seeing their sacred objects desecrated. A lot of religious people may only encounter the activities of the Satanic temple in passing, and their faith will dictate that they avoid entertaining their ideas at all. I fear it will only alienate religious groups

I love hearing you two together!

So basically Satan con is a political event. Gotcha.

@zacharyshort384

7 ай бұрын

Well, yeah. They have not exactly hidden the fact it's a political movement ;)

I wish i had more concrete takes on these topics that were discussed. Im, at the same time, thankful to these two for puttingout content that makes it easy for me, at least, to remember to admit not knowing. Neither one of these guys seem like they want to shove their opinions down throats. Im thankful for that.

So nice to have your brother on your show

Would totally love an interview with Lucien Greaves, Alex. From what I know of him, he's a level headed, reasonable dude! Also I highly recommended the podcast Sacred Tension with Stephen Bradford Long who is a member of TST.

@philip5273

7 ай бұрын

Seconded

watching this as a satanist! it’s always so exciting to hear people take this topic seriously. i love that you didn’t attach a positive or negative connotation to most of your points, and you addressed everything calmly and rationally. i associate myself with the temple because i am aligned with its core tenets-it’s also a way that i can be “spiritual” without having to turn back to the religions that have harmed me and so many others. i am deeply suspicious of christian churches in the first place, and if i were to go back to them as a queer person, i would either be demonized or *patronized* and used as an example of how “accepting” and “progressive” some baptist pastor apparently is. excited to hear more from y’all in the future!

@henryherbert

7 ай бұрын

Can I ask, do you believe in and worship the devil?

@Squeakyboy

7 ай бұрын

@@henryherbert satanists don’t believe that satan or the Bible is real and the truth, if you watched any of their videos about this, you would know that. If on the off chance you do know that and was asking this specific person because there are always outliers, I apologize.

@purrsnickitty

7 ай бұрын

@@henryherbert hi! no, i do not believe in a literal satan-most satanists do not actually believe in the devil. personally, however, i do like to say some little prayers and be spiritual for my own mental health.

@henryherbert

7 ай бұрын

Okay thanks for clearing that up. I guess I just don't understand why Satan is used as vessel for following spiritual and ethical beliefs considering he is the embodiment of evil. There are many other secular paths that promote love without being drenched in dark symbolism. Anyway, each to their own.@@purrsnickitty

@iwiffitthitotonacc4673

7 ай бұрын

​@@henryherbertMany of us view him as a representation of minorities being smeared by those in power. Many of us have been lied about the same way these same people talk about the devil, and if they're lying about us, chances are they're lying about the devil as well.

Alex, your questions seem to be the ones that my brain is kind enough not to bring forward to avoid disturbing me. lol. Great interview discussion with Drew.

I really enjoyed this I really like Drew’s responses and Alex’s questions are to create intelligent responses I hate that they might encourage extremist to use them as “just asking questions” most especially when a lot of them are kinda common sense.

What a great topic to have after the last episode. It's true that religion and politics are intertwined in the US in their own way. It's like there's an American Christianity, people fail to see how these things are distinct, their seemingly pre-existing beliefs are explained by citing the bible. Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians in the US represent a huge number of the voting population. You probably wouldn't find a very diverse range of political opinions in one church, at least not on popular issues. Depending on the kind of church you go to, they will interpret verses differently, or read different translations to talk about whether or not abortion is bad, or insinuate that the persecution that christians are said to experience comes from their political opposition. Christians will call things they disagree with demonic while talking about economics. Kids growing up in this environment don't really see the difference either of course, and so if, when they get older and become atheists, they might also change their mind on politics. I kind of see this as an untapped market that satanism is excelling from. A lot of TST satanists have experienced something like this but still want to belong to a religious group. I also think that because queer people in the US feel so much pressure right now it gives them more incentive to rebel and be a satanist. I found it intriguing myself, this has been my experience and what I've heard from other people in the US. I looked into satanism in general after I accepted that I was an atheist, and the way that Drew is talking makes him sound like he really might as well identify as a satanist, because he's talking exactly like every TST member I've ever listened to. It's kind of like apologetics or evangelizing, at least in the same way that they almost have universal talking points. Who know's?

Alex is the perfect interviewer. Its basically impossible to discern his bias.

@brigidwell

7 ай бұрын

I get a feeling he finds satanism to be a bit disrespectful or dysfunctional, but that may just be how I hear it.

@crowe6961

7 ай бұрын

​ @brigidwell Is that not objective truth?

@brigidwell

7 ай бұрын

@@crowe6961 I personally somewhat think so, but not sure how objective it is. Drew was certainly making as reasonable an argument as possible for why it might be morally good or beneficial for society.

Very insightful discussion with yourself Ales

I really liked the questions you asked even though, I believe at least, that you would be for on the movement on the whole, you’re willing to ask questions, which would generally be asked by opponents to the movement. I really appreciate that because I do like the movement on the whole but also I wasn’t convinced by a lot of Drew’s answers. I think quite a few of them were either unconvincing or a couple times didn’t properly answer the question.

Wow, I can't believe I'm use this word, but GMS was waffling when questioned about burning the flag.

Drew makes the point that doing charity while damaging symbols of oppressor's religions puts it above their oppressors misses the point that charity is practised by many of the same religious oppressors. It fails in the attempt to justify desecrating ripping pages out of the bible as different to burning a pride flag. If one is bad then so is the other. If one is OK then so is the other. I thought that Drew was being a little cute in his reasoning.

@nabrzhunter

7 ай бұрын

So cute. 15:50 vs 54:45 made me laugh out loud. Had to clip it. Alex is an incredible person for keeping his composure as he does, ‘cause I know he heard that.

@aamir6892

5 ай бұрын

i think that because the Bible has been used by the ruling class of America to justify oppressing gay and trans and black people, It's a symbol of pushing up against oppression. In the case of The burning of a pride flag, if the pride flag and the people that uphold thay symbol were oppressimg the person and people like the person that burned the flag, i believe it would have been justified. But the power differential is not the same in Burning a Bible vs burning a pride flag.

Love these two!

Wow. Well handled, Alex.

Completely agree with Alex’s point at around 14:25. The only question that remains is whether it’s useful to offend.

@wolframstahl1263

7 ай бұрын

Of course it is useful to offend. Offense is not just annoying people for no other reason than to be offensive. People might be offended by your political activism, by criticism, by having mistakes pointed out, by your artistic expression or by things you need to do for your own well-being. The right to offend in TST's tenets is not about going around and insulting people, it's about not letting the offense felt by others stop you from doint what is right. It's not about ignoring offense either, but about balancing the harm of doing something offensive with the the harm of not doing it. Sometimes you can't learn, grow, improve both as a person and as a socitey without causing offense.

@kj_H65f

7 ай бұрын

I cannot offend someone who doesn't take offense. Offense and harm are separate, and someone can be offended at harm, or what is harmless. Sometimes it is useful therefore to take harmless actions which you know will cause offense in order to demonstrate the difference.

Two of the greatest KZreadrs in the atheist community. This is a badass collab

@TheJudge_Carls_Junior_Rep

7 ай бұрын

Also DarkMatter2525

@Pumpkinking64

7 ай бұрын

Epic comment bro

@angusmcculloch6653

7 ай бұрын

LOL. Nobody's tearing up the Quaran b/c they aren't oppressing anyone in the west. A Muslim town council just outlawed Pride flags in Michigan. And Muslim parents and religious authorities just got a school in Britain to stop teaching about Pride. Didn't see much in this guy's logic to recommend him as any sort independent thinker. It was all political doublespeak.

@trevorbeingtrevor

7 ай бұрын

​@@angusmcculloch6653as far as i understand, they choose not to fly a pride flag at city hall. They didnt want to fly nongovernmental flags. They didnt outlaw them.

@haruspex1-50

7 ай бұрын

@@angusmcculloch6653yeah you’re right. They seem to have a blind spot when it comes to discussing Islam. To be fair to GMS he did have Apostate Aladdin on his channel recently. So kudos where it’s due. That said far more needs to be done because I believe in the 21st century Islam is one of the biggest threat of our time and it needs to be more light shed on its root issues. As for Alex I don’t respect him at all. He’s a coward.

The crossover episode I've been wanting. 😍

Great content ❤

21:45 I’ll raise my hand for this one. I was inculcated as a Jehovahs Witness until the age of 21 and when I left I went straight to the Satanic Bible to play with the devil to my dismay. No devil worship as I had been raised to fear. Only the basic ideas Drew was espousing on their behalf. (Well done btw Drew🙏🏼) And to say a bit on where I am now at 41 as what could be called a Satanic-Christian Atheist… I know contradictions seemingly abound, I have been juggling these three seemingly incompatible worldviews, theologies, and ontologies from a static epistemology and metaphysics which entails almost a necessary agnosticism for the dialect that exists in the mystery of Aseity and the Reality of Entelechy. Which I admit is a pretty incomprehensible mouthful that says Existence is eternal and doesn’t require a God, yet therein lies the eternal mystery of self-existence (Aseity) which can not rule out God as an eschatological possibility/ emergent phenomenon (like consciousness) which may one day obtain as Terrence McKenna once called it: the Transcendental Object at the end of time. I’d be more than happy to regale the tale of how all these things can be said without needless contradiction and I’d be happy to name some of the frameworks and philosophies are that help me arrive at such a strange place to articulate as such…

@glenliesegang233

7 ай бұрын

If life was created by a Superintelligence, as the only rational scientific explanation for megabytes of be 4 digitally encoded information and a vast operating system requires this Intelligence to have Existed. Does this change your world view?

@iiixtheory

7 ай бұрын

@@glenliesegang233a hypothesis that states “life was created by a Superintelligence”. Or perhaps life could have been sparked by a Superintelligence is what you mean to say? And I do see that as like a Battlestar Galactica style proposition which could be the case in any of the universes that we’ve imagined such a thing occurring. Did that happen in our universe? I see no reason to conclude that idea affirmatively. But it’s certainly in the realm of possibility which as of yet I’ve not seen evidence that supports this idea as the one that explains life in our observable universe. My worldview remains unchanged so far. But I’m willing to explore this idea further with you to see if I’m misunderstanding or conflating things a bit? Thanks for asking the question though Glen.

@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic was instrumental in my deconversion many, many years ago. I started out with Armored and many others and thankfully, due to people like Drew and Alex, I kept out of the Alt-Right pipeline. Thank you both.

@Perditions

7 ай бұрын

What's the alt-right pipeline like? Who were you watching, if you remember?

@kidmurdock

7 ай бұрын

@@Perditions Sargon and Stefan Molyneux are the most notable. This was probably close to 10 years ago. I was just beginning my deconstruction and learning about skepticism. Their rhetoric slowly shifted over the years to very far right ideology.

@Perditions

7 ай бұрын

@@kidmurdock I don't think you were in danger of slipping down a pipeline. Had you continued to follow certain YT creators, you'd be rolling your eyes at the premise of a pipeline, as casually as you decry it now. Maybe you slipped into another pipepline though, you can't be too careful. I still like Sargon. I think Stefen was banned off of everything, so I don't know what became of him. It's good to be skeptical. Sargon's rhetoric surely shifted, but I still like his perspective.

@ridleyroid9060

7 ай бұрын

"Alt right pipeline" What? How do you go from ditching christianity to becoming a nazi, that is a logical leap and a half, it really doesnt matter who you were watching.

Probably my two favorite KZreadrs in one place.

Omg this is amazing. I watch both of you regularly. You got peanut butter in my chocolate!!

I find Drew's logic bizarre, for someone who is obviously very intelligent!

@nabrzhunter

7 ай бұрын

It’s really weird how rapidly he slipped down the slope of neo-Puritanism. It was probably only a year ago I was sending his videos to friends and family. But sheesh, you aren’t kidding. Compare 15:50 to 54:45. The cognitive dissonance is like a gong to the eardrum.

@israelgulley9104

7 ай бұрын

I'm not sure your timestamps do your comment justice as 15:50 Drew is making the argument that acting "good" in the sense that christians would agree to while also using classically evil symbols is a way of moving the discussion of good and evil and who controls that narrative away from the hegemon eg christians to a more pluralist understanding. However at 45:50 It is Alex who is talking and asking the question about the thin blue line vs a capitalist symbol and Drew responds that police are seen to have unauthorized power whereas a capitalist symbol isn't the same could you rephrase where you believe his cognitive dissonance is? Also remember he is presenting this point as a dialectic not as his worldview because he believes it's not being given enough attention. @@nabrzhunter

@nabrzhunter

7 ай бұрын

@@israelgulley9104yep, my stupid. 15:50 v 54:45.

@connormcphillips9008

7 ай бұрын

I think the logic is always bizarre when defending the satanic temple just because that is how that religion/organization is built like when it says it's not a religion but uses religious symbols or how it says it is pro religions but shreds a bible which targets a specific one. You can see a similar bizarre logic with free masonry where it is said not to be a religion but has temples and altars and believes in the architect of the universe which are things most people would call religious

@PeculiarSkeptic

6 ай бұрын

@@nabrzhunter to me Drew is defending their approach in the first case, based on the fact they are not causing anyone genuine harm but aware of the risk of offence, whilst in the second he is tying his lack of alignment to the Satanic temple with an earlier view around the risks associated with power and corruption. I can see why you would point out the cognitive dissonance, and it’s always going to be a challenge for a fairly moderate thinker to defend the views of an emotionally volatile approach but I can’t know that for sure.

Wait is Alex talking to himself? 😂😂😂 But on a serious note, this is amazing.

I also look at the tearing up of the bible as cathartic. I think alot of people who join Satanism have had a fear of God at at least one point in their lives. I think it helps with the healing process, which blasphemous acts seem to do in terms of the bible. Edit: I just got to where Drew talked about these acts being cathartic.

@MyEnemiesLoveDeath

7 ай бұрын

Does that adjudicate it being anti-Christiam though? Surely the guy who burned the pride flag also found it cathartic

@MyEnemiesLoveDeath

7 ай бұрын

@@Mia_2512 I never said it was

@MyEnemiesLoveDeath

7 ай бұрын

@thedelta2512 Right, that may have been TST's intention. But Alex's point was if Drew would really care about intentions if the roles were reversed? If a Christian burned a pride flag and said he wasn't being anti-LGBT but burning it as a protest against LGBT violence, would Drew buy that and give him the benefit of the doubt? In the conversation, he seemed to see this was a massive double standard.

@MyEnemiesLoveDeath

7 ай бұрын

@thedelta2512 Thanks for the thoughtful response. You're not bothering me. I guess my problem is that Drew seems to not see tearing up a Bible as anti-Christian or hateful but doesn't seem to have a good reason for why he believes that. The first reason is that TST is "Christ-like" and does good things like helping the poor. But Jesus cared deeply about the Old Testament, hated blasphemy, and taught loving God was the most important thing to do. TST doesn't model any of these behaviors.

@cutienerdgirl

5 ай бұрын

​@@MyEnemiesLoveDeath People can burn pride flags that they own and literally no one will have a problem with it. People only have a problem with pride symbols owned by the public being destroyed.

Identifying as Satanists and ripping Bibles will immediately lead almost everyone to reject the movement. Alex is right that squaring the term and actions with what they’re actually about will require mental gymnastics- which most people won’t do. It just seems like a very poorly thought out, overly antagonistic approach.

@zacharyshort384

7 ай бұрын

That's quite possible, yes. It's also entirely possible this movement would not have had nearly the traction and therefore the impact if it had not taken an overly antagonistic approach.

@doctorshell7118

7 ай бұрын

There are no sacred cows.

@crowe6961

7 ай бұрын

@@doctorshell7118 And being reactionary in acts of largely ineffectual spite against more mainstream reactionary behavior achieves no progress, only painting yourself as the enemy whereas before far more people would at least hear the time of day from you.

@ShadowBanEnjoyer-ob7kf

7 ай бұрын

Without mentioning in Christianity is commonly understood that Satan is "the deceiver". Satanists coming out and behaving as saints is exactly what you would expect to begin with.

@crowe6961

7 ай бұрын

@@ShadowBanEnjoyer-ob7kf The inversion of right and wrong is also explicitly mentioned and condemned as a tactic of evil. These people are fulfilling prophecy without knowing it.

I'm so frustrated by "what about the optics" conversations, especially related to how individual queer people's choices impact the entire community. Like just let me wear an upside down cross and hold my gf's hand at the same time without worrying what Fox News watchers near me will think and if they'll generalize my jewelry to all gay people lmao

@Tamlinearthly

7 ай бұрын

Indeed, nobody asks about the "optics" of Christianity--even though they're actually quite bad.

@FirstNameBunchANumbers

7 ай бұрын

@@Tamlinearthly That's all I wanted to say to Alex while Drew was trying to explain to him how it's different to use the term Satanist than to embrace the word sexist in "reclamation" lmao

"While the world changes, the cross stands firm." -St. Bruno

Alex is pushing back on a guest who is on his side. 28:00 That’s doing the job of an interviewer.

At points it felt like Drew was having a bit of an off day trying to explain some of this stuff, and felt like there were some spots where he should have said "You know what, I don't have a good answer for that" and/or "You might want to talk to somebody more directly involved on that front." But I felt comfortable writing it off as such (i.e. simply an off day), given that he pretty consistently makes well-articulated and well-reasoned arguments in every other video I've seen him in, even when I don't agree on every point. (I mean, I'm sure I haven't watched all his videos, so grain of salt there, but from what I'm seeing ...) With Alex O'Connor, on the other hand, I've definitely been noticing a pattern with recent videos of his (of the ones that I've watched, so again, grain of salt), where he seems to be very softball-y with Christians and just the opposite with atheists/otherwise Christianity-critical folks. In fact, especially with this interview, he seems to not just play hardball with atheists, but outright twist people's words sometimes. (In this interview, Drew was clearly trying to get at "context informs meaning, and something's meaning/connotations can change based on that context" with the whole Bible-tearing thing, and Alex completely misrepresented that argument.) And I also keep thinking, in a semi-parallel example, of that interview Alex did a little while back where he pestered Bart Ehrman with a line of questioning that felt less like intellectual discussion and more like, "But what if we just accept the Gospels as true? Why can't we try just accepting them at face value?" If it was just an individual instance where I was noticing this kind of stuff, I would be able to dismiss it as an off day, but I feel like it's becoming a pattern where Alex is being *unreasonably* easy on apologists and conversely *unreasonably* harsh (to the point of misrepresentation) with atheists. Like, pressing people to get to the bottom of something is good, but (a) you can still go too far, even with a generally good thing, and (b) it should be done in a way that doesn't create a double standard.

I called myself a Satanist when I was 15 (back in 1999) after reading an Anton LaVey book. Since then I've been in and out of other religions because it seemed everyone was finding something magical about life that made faith really attractive... Now I'm 39 and I think it's about time I actually join TST even if it further alienates me from my friends and family. Many of them have already played the "you're dead to me queer" card. Maybe this will get the remainders.

@littlebitofhope1489

7 ай бұрын

I really like the work they do, and that they are secular. If anyone was in my area I would definitely join. I have a Christian Nationalist neighbor that is absolutely terrifying though.

@LeventeCzelnai

7 ай бұрын

and you were sacrificing small animals and such?

@jamtaco2667

7 ай бұрын

@@LeventeCzelnai not until I was xtian again actually - I knew I didn't have access to all the large farm animals I would need to make YHWH forget about my transgressions... by that I mean my parents not marrying. So being a bastard and all -i must've slaughtered billions or trillions... I don't know honestly. It's hard to count microbes without a microscope 🔬 Now - if you mean hunting for food... I did that too. Thanks to a gun loving xtian boyfriend my mom had while I was in middle school before I had even heard of other religions... well yeah I've shot two doe and a 4pt. They even wiped the blood on my face. They were very into rituals. Especially ones involving blood. What else ya want to know? I'm also autistic and even though I didn't know that term or any others til I was 18... I was told my mental health issues were demon possessions. You know, thanks to my parents not doing the magic ritual in a church prior to making me.

@matthewsteele5229

7 ай бұрын

@@LeventeCzelnai “Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.” -tenth of the 11 satanic rules of the earth, The Satanic Bible, by Anton Lavey. Don’t mistake your propaganda for our creed please.

@LOVIATHAN

7 ай бұрын

what? no, Satanists don't harm animals unless for food or self-defense@@LeventeCzelnai

I'm cool with Drew don't get me wrong. But I also loved how much Alex grilled him. I'm glad it was a friendly discussion tho. Also Paulogeia is the best.

Thank you for your passion and research. Don't worry about the hate. At the root of fear, and at the end of the day, we're all human. You and your antibot pursue the truth first and use empathy as your guide. Y'all are a shining example. ❤🎉💖💞💝

Hey Alex, I would love to see you’re lighting a bit less white and bright and maybe a bit more warm like how GMS has it. It’s effect on the vibe of the conversations, I think, will have be quite positive. Hopefully you’ll take this into consideration!

I'm going to be honest, though Drew made good points, his view on Satanism's approach is lacking. It's as you said Alex, there's a lot of mental gymnastics needed to explain why the Satanists destroyed the bible and other symbols (Because no, Drew did not give a reasonable answer because it has no way of convincing people to stop, it only makes the people who already are against that discrimination feel empowered). I really wish you would have asked Drew why he thinks such actions will change anything in more depth (though I don't see how he'd answer in a way that'd make sense). Satanists need a new approach, they need to be their own source of positivity more strongly, to show others that there's a better way, their own wisdom, but the way Satanism is currently lacks that sort of foundation, if not, they wouldn't have felt the need to destroy such symbols in a public way.

@crowe6961

7 ай бұрын

For Satanists not to do or support these things, they would need to not be Satanists. Secular Humanism is popular, can be respected by the majority as Christ-like in behavior if not Christian faith, and is far less antagonistic. These are people that churches can and do deal with regularly for the common good, and partnership with secular but non-hostile organizations for charity work is routine.

@lastsaint4162

7 ай бұрын

Christian did burn lots of books in the old ways. Your point is??????

@njhoepner

7 ай бұрын

I think there is room for both calm, reasoned approaches, and for provocative ones. Like any other resistance movement, there is a need for protest as well as for purely rational argument. On that same line, I don't think the bible-tearing was meant to "change anything in more depth." That is the role of the community activism, the positive actions toward the poor and marginalized. The role of the bible-tearing is defiance in the face of power...and, like the protest marches and boycotts that finally helped break Jim Crow, they get peoples' blood up. I doubt even one KKK member or Jim Crow supporter got their mind changed by those actions...but they did make clear that the protesters weren't backing down. Is a protest that irritates no one, bothers no one, provokes no one, really a protest?

@crowe6961

7 ай бұрын

@@njhoepner Deceivers who claim and appear to be Christ-like, but are not, are often warned against as... you guessed it, the work of Satan, in the same book they're tearing up. At this point, you are explicitly ignoring this and how it is affecting and will affect the reaction. Can we not try to force matters of prophecy here? Do you _want_ them to come true?

@Echogem222

7 ай бұрын

@@njhoepner Destroying symbols in protests is a great way to get like-minded people to gather together, it does nothing for actually changing the opinions of the ones you're protesting against. If this were not the case, then anyone who protests about anything would gain results just by destroying symbols, and if this were true, our world would be a very chaotic place. Having reasonable opinions that are able to be explained on the other hand, that would obviously have a chance of changing the minds of people. Can something like that be done without irritating no one, bothering no one, provoking no one? No, not with certainty. Simply said, if what you're saying were true, then that would mean the people the Satanists are protesting against are causing problems merely because they felt like it, which is why being swayed by a mere destruction of a symbol could work in changing their minds (that would be insanity if things were truly like that).

I dont think this is really the full picture on why atheist youtubers often become anti-sjw. In addition to the unhinged rants, atheist oriented content has always had a strong component of "dunking on idiots" - take a clip of someone saying very stupid religious things, and tear it apart. Anti-sjw is the same thing: you find someone saying something dumb (or fabricate that person if they dont exist), and then tear it apart for an audience that loves to see "stupid people" get laughed at. It just happens that dunking on "SJWs" draws a big audience because a lot of people want progressives to be wrong.

@SlightlyDazed.

7 ай бұрын

I totally agree, it’s been interesting to see how channels like rationality rules have been targeted by their own fans for not just mindlessly hating trans people. It’s an unfortunate legacy of what the atheist KZread space used to be

@T_J_

7 ай бұрын

What example of an "unhinged rant" by an atheist would you cite?

@ridleyroid9060

7 ай бұрын

That is because sjw ideas are inherently religious.

30:22 that question immediatly gained you all my respect. GMT was minimizing what I (as an atheist buddhist) consider Christian Baiting and you turned it around with such a sharp question. Also to him I would say there are always institutions and hierachies. Including in the Satanic Temple.

Great talk, I'm a big fan of both these guys. I like Alex because he chases after inconsistencies, and Drew because he put forward a remarkably coherent description of a group he doesn't consider himself part of. Satanism seems to have a conflict between the goals of shocking reactionaries and redefining moral symbols and I appreciate the hard questions about it. However it did seem a bit strange to press Drew on these inconsistencies when he's not a member.

Deconstructing what it is to be a man, woman, Satan & everything else what we knew was to be true these days, has to me, some sort of superficiality or faddish trend leading to something remarkably awesome. I think this is needed to get us where we need to go. It feels to me that all this upheaval & confusion (not saying it’s all negative) is leading to some human revolution that is going to be something we can’t even think of now. ❤

@littlebitofhope1489

7 ай бұрын

At one point Christianity was a superficial faddish trend. Let's how the new trend doesn't devolve into something like that. I do agree with you though.

@LeventeCzelnai

7 ай бұрын

Deconstructing Satan? :D How do you do that? Suddenly killing and rape and pedophilia and torture became good things?

@susie4045

7 ай бұрын

@@littlebitofhope1489 Yes, I can see that. Thank you. I do have much hope, determination & action myself, to make positive effects in my little microcosm to hopefully contribute to move in this direction. :)

@zahubshahid7944

Ай бұрын

I don't know. I think confusing the lines of what's a man or woman is not a good thing. Life itself is already confusing so I don't think sending people into an existential crisis by not knowing how to describe their own biological sex would lead to something good.

There's a distinction between the Matt Walsh "sexists" in Alex's counter example and the satanic or queer community. The latter is trying to shift paradigms as the minority group (while perhaps enjoying a bit of trolling themselves) and the prior is simply trolling as the majority group. One seems to be attempting to affect positive change, the other seems to be malicious in intent. Of course that part may be in the eye of the beholder.

@littlebitofhope1489

7 ай бұрын

Also, one is engaging in a paradigm shift, while the other is embracing the bad.

@aznravenflame

7 ай бұрын

Just attribute the intent to people and groups based on your own perspective and you'll never have to think about any real arguments. Well done.

@nabrzhunter

7 ай бұрын

@@aznravenflame saved me the energy of typing this, thank you. For real, the whole conversation sees Drew attempting to gaslight the audience regarding the subject matter. “If you do good things, disrespect, offense, and intimidation of your opponent are justifiable.” “I disagree with my opponents, therefore none of their charities or social activities are good.” “If you’re going to co-opt a slur, you have to be attempting to flip the narrative on its head.” “Of course you’re angry when you leave Christianity, because you’ve been living as a part of a group where the moral narrative has been flipped on its head, and that’s disgusting.” “All the KZreadrs I disagree with are only pretending to care about their causes for monetary reasons.” “My opponents oppose ‘gender affirming care’ because they want to make it illegal to be gay.’” Wut. “Muslims aren’t oppressive. They’re not trying to put a statue of Muhammad in the capitol.” Wut. That was a bizarre interview to listen to, especially since Drew is someone I used to respect. Kudos to Alex for holding his feet to the fire. He’s a better man than I am - I have no idea how he manages to keep his face so straight the whole time.

@iwiffitthitotonacc4673

7 ай бұрын

​@@aznravenflameYeah sorry, one is advocating for my rights and one is advocating against them - pretty easy to know which one to side with.

@willjapheth23789

4 ай бұрын

​@@nabrzhunter wow dude calm down on the strawmen and quit using quotes "" for things that aren't quotes, or atleast use ' ' instead to imply you are paraphrasing.

Really interesting discussion as ever! In regards to the ripping of a bible on stage, I wonder if another perspective could be a message of: “We understand that according to this book we are evil, but you don’t seem to understand that we do not believe in the standards of evil or the power of this book!” - there are few stronger ways to say you don’t believe you should be subjected to the moral standards of the bible than by ripping it up… I still agree that from the perspective of an average Christian family watching Fox News, it’s probably not great for the image of Satanism, but I don’t think that’s who the message is targeted at. I also find myself relating to the exasperation of non-religious Americans who are having their rights to abortion, the books their children are allowed to read at school, and all sorts of other things dictated to them by a religion they don’t believe in (especially when I expect the majority of Satanists would be perfectly willing for Christians to go about their beliefs and practice, so long as it doesn’t infringe on others who don’t share that belief…). Edit: For what it's worth, I totally agree that it _is_ an anti-Christian message that, while targetted at religious oppression, would be received by the average Christian as a direct attack on their beliefs.

@SundayMatinee

7 ай бұрын

Should have ripped up copies of religious-preferenced laws or other more direct forms of oppression. That would convey the message more clearly. Instead, the immediate message that is conveyed is that Satanists are anti-Christian. Congratulations on perpetuating the stereotype I guess?

A Podcast would have much potential!

Funny Drew mentioned Matt Walsh when talking about reclaiming slurs. Walsh has "I'm a theocratic fascist" on his Twitter profile because someone accused him of being one, and he thought it sounded neat. When interviewed about it he says that it's obviously a sarcastic joke, that he is reclaiming a slur, but does nothing whatsoever to show that it isn't an accurate descriptor; furthermore his claims of sarcasm leave a little bit of wiggle room for people to interpret them as him actually being sincere all along.

@nabrzhunter

7 ай бұрын

Actually Matt is pretty much bang on with his appropriation. In fact, he does it so much like queers do it that I’m frankly uncomfortable with it sometimes. As for me…I’m a transphobe. It’s the morally and intellectually justifiable position to hold. I wear it unapologetically. I oppose their invasion of womens’ spaces, their demands for the authoritarian control of speech, their conquest of social parlance and dialogue, and their desire to oppress their opponents and attach themselves parasitically to marginalized groups. Transphobia is a badge of honor, in fact. However, in the spirit of flipping narratives on their head, I don’t seek to kill trans, I don’t want them dead, I don’t want all human rights taken away from them, and I think they deserve fundamental human respect and dignity.

In some way I would consider myself a christian satanist. Reasoning being something like this: When we're taught as christians about an all loving, all encompassing God. It implies God is everywhere and in everyone/thing. This however is contrasted by the fact that for there to be something that is christian (or anything, really, insert "X"), there has to be something that is non-christian (non-"X"). Inclusion being co-dependent on exclusion. Take for example the word "Christianity" means something because there are other words (in this case in English) which doesn’t refer to christianity, say "Cat". If all words meant christianity, no word would mean christianity, rendering it meaningless. So there is a paradox here, related to the "problem of evil". Same dynamics, different question, let's call it the "problem of existence". For christianity to exist, something has to be non-christian, but we're taught the christian god is Everything (capital E). But, if christianity (like it's god) would become completely universal, then christianity would be meaningless and cease to exist. That's one possible path to christian-atheism. Christianity annihilating itself through it's own inherent paradox. However, if one is like me and want Christianity to continue existing, and want to continue it's path towards universality, one has to take a step outside what is generally accepted as christian towards the non-christian. The most obvious symbol of this being the satanic. So, in a dialectic sense christianty needs satanism to get closer on it's path towards the universality promised by it's god, while still meaning something and not evaporate to oblivion. Well, at least that's the rationalization for me to continue to go to metal festivals, buddhist vipassana retreats, reading Nietzsche and still call myself a christian.

Hahaha sorry, I used to watch Skeptic occasionally years back and now that Alex came up in my feed with a couple of videos, I honestly was questioning "Is this the same person?" So I'll have to give it to you, nice editing! Almost believed you're not the same person. ;))

I'm a Christian and I enjoy Alex's content a lot especially because of how good he is at communicating. He doesn't back down with the questions he asks, from both sides of the spectrum and he actually is kind. He actually, makes me grow in faith interestingly so....and this video was another plus even though I'm not from America. Seeing from outside, it's a bit crazy😂

34:20 Alex ain't buying what Caleb is selling.

As a homosexual who has been on the receiving end of ridicule, bullying, and discrimination, what Drew was saying about reclaiming words, I think it came out wrong, he had Alex confused, understandably. When kids called me anti-gay slurs, I knew I didn't deserve the hate, but I also looked for confirmation, that they were wrong to hate homosexuality. That's like the whole reason for pride, it's an answer to those who would have us feel ashamed. So that's what this is about, you have people being called satanists, they don't feel they deserve the hate, so maybe satanists don't deserve it either, and they look for confirmation and they find it, or they cherry-pick reasons to feel better about themselves being called satanists.

@kj_H65f

7 ай бұрын

"if me being who I am means I'm queer, then I guess fine. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm proud to be that, so fine. I'm queer" "If me being me and taking the stances I do means that I'm a 'satanist,' then fine, that's what I am. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm proud to be that." Is that kinda what you mean?

@KnightsAndDarths

7 ай бұрын

@@kj_H65f I'll go with you, it's like "they call me x to get at me, I didn't do anything, they are wrong to hate me, I should presume they're wrong to hate x too. Let me look at x. See? I knew they were just being dicks."

@luisramrod9121

5 ай бұрын

Your logic is confusing. So we should understand murders ? I know being queer and a murder is not the same but thats how christians see it.

@KnightsAndDarths

5 ай бұрын

@@luisramrod9121 I don't follow, that is I don't think you're following my logic by implying that a murderer would look at murder and be like that's some seriously misunderstood goodness right there that is, why a bit of murder wouldn't hurt a fly!

@shaunnal2560

5 ай бұрын

@@luisramrod9121is that how Christians see it? I know that’s how Muslims see it but I thought Christianity saw it as a lesser sin.

After enough questions from Alex it became clear that Drew is careful here not to cross a line he made for himself. His blatant reluctance to make any criticism of the movement even after repeatedly being set up by Alex to do so is at best, decidedly stylistic, or at worst, feckless. Neither is an attribute of a free mind.

As somone who grew up within the youtube atheist sphere this video was awesome

Making a public display of the destruction of an object because it engages the intellect in a particular way is why book burning exists. I think it's intellectually lazy, violent, and sabotaging potency of discourse.

Drew felt a bit like an ideologue skilled at keeping himself out of the line of fire. I really appreciated Alex pressing him.

@sanstheblaster2626

7 ай бұрын

I appreciated the pressing but I also thought Drew handled it perfectly and managed to make his arguments even stronger because of it. I now see how tearing up a bible can, indeed, not be an anti-Christian action, as absurd as that sounds, if we look at the social context in which these actions were performed in.

@DarkenedXEnigma

7 ай бұрын

​@@sanstheblaster2626I agree with you here he defended his points very well and it clear to me that burning Bible does always equal anti Christian burning symbols of specific groups is subjective but in most cases when you burn something as a symbol it is anti whoever's symbol you are burning

@littlebitofhope1489

7 ай бұрын

Why would an advocate of an idea, dodge that idea? That makes no sense.

@cole141000

7 ай бұрын

@@littlebitofhope1489 if you’re defending contradictory ideas it’s a completely normal response or defending something without wanting to be pinned down as having any personal bias in your reasoning

@sanstheblaster2626

7 ай бұрын

@@littlebitofhope1489 he is not a Satanist so he doesn't want to misrepresent them. So, he only answers if he is sure about his position, and he feels like he NEEDS to respond to not cast bad light on the movement. Alex noticed this and so made his question both more precise and provocative. It's a good thing and an interviewer should absolutely do this, although I do wonder if it would have been preferable to just call a declared Satanist as they would have probably been more comfortable with answering these questions even without pressing.

I think Alex was quite on point with the question referring to "complicated mental gymnastics."

It will be an interesting conversation 😮