Even that short clip of Sam talking about Rosie puts tears in my eyes🥹 LOTR❤

The biggest thing it seems that this show is missing--and the list is long mind you--is love. The writings of Tolkien are full of love. Characters that love each other, in many different ways, not just romantic. The heroes in LOTR cared deeply about each other and had strong bonds of friendship. Frodo and Sam, Aragorn and Boromir, Legolas and Gimli, to name a few. And not just between friends and comrades, but a love for nature, for one's homeland, for one's kin, for one's king, all of this was oozing out of Tolkien's books and Jackson's movies. ROP hasn't got any of that. I struggle to think of any two characters in Rings of Power that even slightly like each other in this show. Everyone is so bitter, on edge, manipulative, and fake, all the time. It's no wonder people can't stand to watch it.

@TallisKeeton

9 ай бұрын

John 15.13 : "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." Tolkien's Letter 246 : "Frodo sacrificed himself out of love."

@missAlice1990

9 ай бұрын

But also, it's the love of an author for his world, his characters, his story. Tolkien devoted half of his life, or more, to create this world because he loved it so much. Peter Jackson, and other creators, loved Tolkien's world and loved the movie they were making. What do the showrunners love about Tolkien when they stripped his story of his values, philosophy and style? What do they love about their own creation when everything feels so half-baked? The only kind of love that was involved here was love for money.

@flaviapetrorossidefigueire6044

6 ай бұрын

Thing is, this show feels like it has no soul. Its like, sometimes the script is bad, sometimes is good or meh, sometimes the actors are cringe sometimes they are good, and the caracthers are mostly meh but galadriel and Sauron had potential, unfortuneally they never developed how they should elron and durin are really good, i care about them, their cenes FEELS like a lotr cene, but stil, is just 2 caracthers, bween SO many boring cenes. The hartfoots and gandalf could have been really Nice too, but it got weird, idk, its like evething could been good but got no heart onto it! We mostly dont have caracthers that we care about, that we relate, that love eachother and makes us love them and their relationships, we dont get aragorn laughing at boromir playing with the hobbits, or legolas vs gimli drinking game, nor eowyn longin to protect the man and country she loves, as a srrong and kind woman, we dont get that feeling of Joy and sadness. In rop we get mostly indiference and that Hurts us as fans, because we know, lotr universe is so more rhan just sword fighint and dragons

The Disney Star Wars sequels have the same problem - there are no relationships ! It's just a bunch of paper thin characters doing disconnected things in one another's presence.

@JesseTate

11 ай бұрын

True! Well said. I've never been a huge star wars fan . . . . not that I don't enjoy it; I've just never been super strongly drawn to it. I think it plays with some deep and fun archetypes, but to me it's mainly about the aesthetic, the endless imagination with regards to species, planets, and so on. That said, the originals had sooo much more relationship, and that was one of the very strong points of the prequels. Perhaps not the best written, but I actually thought the prequels had a slightly more direct focus on relationship in some ways. What on earth do the sequels offer? Rose and Finn? Kylo Ren and Rey? Nothing. Finn and Rey? They peaked like six minutes into the first one. Palpatine and Rey? Lol absolutely nothing there. Consider the 'revelation' of Rey's relation to Palpatine. First of all, it's a ridiculous and unecessary idea. It doesn't develop any of the themes they seemed to be approaching in The Last Jedi, and it doesn't develop any of the themes the other two were trying to develop. It just inverts one vein of thought, but does nothing for the other. Consider how much story was developed thereupon. Compared to Luke and Vader, it's an absolute nothingburger. Feels incredibly gimmicky and there's no point in revealing it so late in the game. Sorry I'm rambling but anyway I totally agree. They kept teasing as if they were going to do something new with Star Wars, then they'd just shove another Macguffin in there (however you spell that), and introduce a few new characters, tease something new with THEM, do nothing, change their mind, and fall back to more Macguffins. It's bizarre we can produce something so fantastically empty with so so much money.

@UlyssestheBrave

9 ай бұрын

Funny you mentioned that because there are a ton of connections between the writers of the Star Wars sequels and Rings of Power.

''We wait for you!'' they said, raising glasses in the memory of those they didn't wait for and let to die behind and alone

ROP had all the pace and emotional investment of a Wikipedia article

@ElenarMT

3 ай бұрын

Geesh, that is unnecessarily harsh. No need for that kind of negativity - Wikipedia is actually pretty solid at times 😂 Sorry, I suck at humour. I tried to make a joke to say Wikipedia isn't that bad. RoP is just a disaster through and through

Another thing that's almost completely missing is humor. Just once, when Prince Durin brings Elrond home to meet his wife Disa. Even the stupid, filthy proto-hobbits aren't ever funny. I can't think of anything more un-Tolkeinesqe.

I never saw the last episode. I didn't intentionally skip it or anything, I just... never got around to it.

It seems so obvious when you put it that way, thanks to you I now understand why Adar is one of my favorite characters even though he's the villain, it's because everything he does comes from the care he has for the orcs, I think it's a bit misguided but it does tell a lot about him as a character. It was so strange watching that conversation between Adar and Galadriel in the barn cause the whole time I was on Adar's side, but now i understand it's because he at least cares for something other than strictly himself, Galadriel is never shown to care about anything other than her search for revenge, when I found out she's supposed to be married my first thought was "Why are you wasting time trying to avenge someone that died centuries ago instead of searching for your husband that might still be alive?". It's so baffling to me that this wasn't her goal this season, it would justify her search for any clues of sauron much better.

@shannonceleste5557

Ай бұрын

It's wild that the first scene of the show they decide to show G literally not caring about her 'army', who have been with her for centuries! I almost changed my wording there- bc the army doesn't even seem to be 'with' G, they just happen to be around her and she could not care less. She stood there for half a minute letting several get killed by the troll before finally stepping up and defeating him within ~60 seconds Such an odd show.

Lovely video, terrific analysis. Worldbuilding and character are the two most important things for me. The writers of RoP just haven't mastered the trick of constructing a world the viewer (or reader) can inhabit without having their sense of naturalness and plausibility constantly violated, or characters who exist independently of plot requirement as individuals in a world of relationships. Characters who move the plot, not the other way around.

@JesseTate

11 ай бұрын

Thanks Lisa, appreciate it! Yes I absolutely agree--Well said. We might have accepted and even enjoyed a world that felt consistently and richly Tolkienesque. We could have been drawn in by complex characters, realistic person-centric relationships . . . . instead we just got, exactly as you said, characters whose only purpose seems to be moving the plot forward, and even THAT is done extremely poorly. Suspension of disbelief is completely shattered. Characters who move the plot, not the other way around--I like that

19.19 - she said that it is becouse of the elves they were given this island. No, its not. It was given becouse humans saved elves in battles against Morgoth. It was not a charity from the elves side.

Very good & respectable analysis that isn't just hating on it for any big or small reason. Almost 90% of Ring of Power analysis videos are people just strictly ranting & hating the series bcuz of how bad it is & not bothering to figure out why it's bad. But I agree that the relationships is one of the core reasons why this series is so bland. Elrond's relation w/ the Dwarves was the most interesting bcuz he actually had one. They cared for each other & it made them human & relatable. But having feelings isn't just the only thing that's needed, as the reasons as to why they care, the history & most importantly the future of the said relationships of these characters need to be present for us to care.

The best form of media I’ve consumed in the past year easily is God of War Ragnarok. It’s a game that has high production quality but the storyline is an absolute masterpiece. It’s an intense relationship between father and son and the supporting cast where’s friend or foe is also beloved. Modern day writing is so piss poor, it actively makes people turn away from these IPs. What a shame.

I’m starting to think it actually may have been written by AI. “The sea is always right” is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

@JesseTate

6 ай бұрын

It really is. The more time passes, the more absurd it seems

"How is it that you are here?" "How is it that YOU are here?" "I live and work here, dumbass." I hate her character so much.

@AliciatheCho

11 ай бұрын

This show and people not answering questions directly lol. And don’t forget who how she demanded trust from him without extending it.

funny thing with the black sword is that it was one of few things in which fans put hopes that it would become something important, realy magic sword (maybe a remnant of Beleriand, or sword of Turin himself, or future sword of Nazgul) but it was not like that - it becomes only a key to a dam :D And its not coherent idea when we were given pseudo dark-magic-sword which actualy is just a tool for a mechanism :D Thats ridiculous.And if this was only a key for mechanism how its able to influence this kid with lust of power? Thats also IMO unexplainable.

@flankspeed

9 ай бұрын

See also: the stupid Sith dagger in Star Wars Rise of Palpatine😂

@TallisKeeton

9 ай бұрын

@@flankspeed yes :D How this dagger was able to serve to point at acurate spot I dont understand - how this coincidents work that the Dead Star has crushed and the remnants look some particular way and it appears that the dagger fits in exactly in the shape of the remnants of crushed Dead Star? How its possible? :D

It's interesting to hear a KZreadr reference GoT season 8 in a positive light whatsoever 😅 I'd enjoy hearing your other thoughts about that show! I subscribed- good video!

You nailed it. Putting aside that the show is supposed to reflect somewhat of the stories of Tolkien, there is storywise no heart, no love. For what should I even care to come out of it. Such a pity...

This video was excellent. Thank you for articulating what I felt but couldn't verbalize

@JesseTate

6 ай бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate it. I'm hoping to start a storytelling series diving into a bit more depth on Tolkien and some of the other godfathers of classic fantasy . . . . been a bit busy lately but stay tuned. My only hope now lies in House of the Dragon. All other shows have been horrid recently

For my sins, I was very invested in this series. I was more than willing to love it, to defend it, to gloss over and cling to the good parts. I progressed from hope to disappointment to resolute effort to salvage something to a sense of utter, utter rage. How dare Amazon pour such a mountain of money on two entitled blokes with no history, no credits, no talent? All over the world there are people who would cut their heart out to build the scaffolding for a series like this: costumers, designers, prop specialists, production designers, casting managers… and a lot of them clearly gave blood and sweat and tears to this series. Seeing it again stitched together like this, it is so beautiful. There are no doubts scriptwriters by the dozen who could have pulled something decent despite all the obstacles and difficulties. Blind Guardian managed to pull the best record of their career from the Silmarillion, because the source material is so rich and so imbued with tragedy and hope and huge epic fights resonating at a human level - just listen to Time Stands Still. But no, it went to two chums of JJ Abrams who followed his asinine mystery box ideas. The waste, for fuck’s sake.

@annafdd

11 ай бұрын

BTW, I realise I didn’t engage with your main point here. I think you are right, in that characters are what anchors investment in a story. I am not sure the fault here is the lack of relationships or just the lack of characters. I think if you have a strong sense of a character, it will build relationship organically. To remain with Tolkien, he says Faramir took him completely by surprise, walking into the story and demanding to be a character. I think that a lot of the problems for this series were that the showrunners - I repeat, two young blokes with zero writing credits and zero writing experience - went about it with a few unassailable assumption, for example that they needed to preserve a sense of mystery at all costs. Hence the introduction of Halbrand instead of Annatar, because “readers would have known immediately that it was Sauron”. And the introduction of the completely pointless Stranger plot (apparently the inclusion of the proto-hobbits was an imposition from on high), because they *had* to give another suspect for the role. I maintain that Adar was the only good character, because Joseph Mawle is an incredible actor who grounded his performance in his genuine love for his children, but I guess that the reason he was included was as another Sauron foil. They sacrificed *everything* to this stupid mystery, to the point of not even telling Charlie Vickers who he was playing until his third episode.

I was cleaning dishes watching your video. I blurted out the word "indifference" at the same time as you. I said Wow!

@JesseTate

11 ай бұрын

Hahaha nice. I forget if i said it after or before inserting Yoda's line, but it's spot on. To be honest I was never very optimistic but I at least had hope, or hoped to have hope. I feel like indifference is becoming a staple for all these legacy sagas... Star Wars, marvel, any and all reboots..... Perhaps Their time should come to an end

@tomdreler6528

10 ай бұрын

And this is the Power of relationship

I think Galadriel's lack of a relationships is a testament to the immense alienation of individuals in society today (especially the kind of people who must've written this trash) Well done Jesse!

@JesseTate

11 ай бұрын

Thanks Brad! Appreciate it. And that's a good point. Hmm . . . hadn't thought of it from that angle but could be a lot more to unpack when it comes to that sort of thing. Freedom from consequences, aversion to risk . . . . (risk in general but also specifically relational vulnerability/risk) . . . . the destruction or denial of any objective standard, the destruction of our ability to recognize the corruption and weakness within the individual (and our ability to overcome it through personal sacrifice) . . . . It makes sense that the upcoming generation of writers would struggle to create story arcs that actually resonate and compel us. I think we're living in a fascinating age and have the potential to go great places, but we definitely do seem to be struggling with isolation, void of identity, and an inability to clearly recognize or articulate value.

@bradleymarshall5489

11 ай бұрын

@@JesseTate oh for sure things are definitely pretty bad. Definitely part of the destruction or morality as virtue ethicist Alasdair MacIntyre points out is the denial of the "telos" the idea that man has an objective end he/she should strive to achieve, and as traditionally conceived this relied on relationships. I know I'm a good son through my relationship to my father/mother, I know I'm a good friend due to my relationships with friends, I know I'm a good spouse due to my relationship with my spouse. Additionally as Aristotle taught, virtue is a "habit of the soul" and is almost like a trade where one learns it through emulation thus requiring close role models to imitate in order to become more virtuous. Where MacIntyre implies things are so bad today that our relationship with virtue is essentially the equivalent of a apocalyptic society coming across ancient technology and today most everyone has an emotivist conception of society. Robert Nisbet implies that essentially the same thing exists with our perception of community. While in previous times most problems were solved by local communities and church, as government became more centralized and powerful it demanded the destruction of local communities thus causing immense isolation (covid of course has escalated things). Just compare this to the original Lord of the Rings where it was all about relationships and everyone seeking to achieve an objective end and settle where we are meant to be (Inspiring Philosophy has an excellent video on this). I think as time goes on the lack of virtue and alienation will become more apparent as it already is in works such as the new Peter Pan movie.

Great points! It didn’t take long for me to care about Frodo and Sam or Jon Snow and Ariya. So Theo’s dad is a weird thing. Ies clear he disappeared relatively recently (maybe a year?) because his friend, Rowan, relays town gossip about Theo’s mom and the Elf, implying that’s why his dad left. But Theo and his mother are impacted by this abandonment. Bronwyn never brings her husband’s disappearance up with Arondir. How do she know her husband won’t reappear.If you were abandoned it would impact your future relationships. Is this motivates Theo to be… well, kinda sketchy? As in, why he’s acting out? Vengeance arcs sympathetic thetic but challenging write. That Galadriel’s doesn’t have an overarching goal makes for the future. It’s such a negative space. She just wants to kill Sauron to feel better. Getting people killed to do is as tragic as it is repellent. Like you said in summary: nobody wants to root for someone’s own destructive self-gratification. It’s less story and more watching Cold Case Files lol When Galadriel does first show a flicker of caring about someone other than herself it’s Halbrand…who is Sauron lol. Like you said, it’s not character-driven but plot-driven. It’s the big “gotcha!” Just listen to the showrunners speak speak about their mutual arc etc. Listen to episode 8 of the official RoP podcast. It seems like they are more interested in adding on to Tolkien’s legacy than just writing a good character-driven story.

@AliciatheCho

11 ай бұрын

On relationships: the show is also a great lesson for writers to know themselves so they understand their audience. On how they relate to the world and others. We all write with our worldview, biases, values, and lived experiences. I can tell this show was written Americans. Galadriel as a Lone Ranger shtick is weird for someone would’ve grown up on a close-knit medieval-like society where people had to depend on others. She’s a princes - how could she no other allies/relationships in the entire realm besides than Elrond? Are we to believe she’s just ThAT alienating?? Because the plot demanded it, not her characterization.

@gunkulator1

11 ай бұрын

In the first episode of ROP, it seemed pretty clear to me that we were getting a revenge story a la Moby Dick. Galadriel was Captain Ahab, obsessed with her own white whale (Sauron) beyond the point of reason. Her men recognize this and mutiny. Ahab pays dearly for his obsession, as do the men around him but Galadriel suffers no consequences whatsoever. To the contrary, upon return she and her men are celebrated. There. was. a. mutiny. There has to consequences. Exceedingly poor writing there. And why is Galadriel so obsessed? The writings of Tolkien give her an out: Her one and only daughter is attacked by Sauron's orcs and so she forsakes Middle Earth and her family. Moreover, her daughter is also Elrond's wife, mother to Arwen. There was opportunity there for some great tie-ins to LOTR with built-in drama and character connections, including a love story, but the ROP writers fumbled the ball. Galadriel hating Sauron for causing her family to be separated recently would have been a great character motivation. Instead, ROP Galadriel is a lone wolf who can't give up obsessing on Sauron for killing her brother despite her brother being dead for centuries. Of course this still requires ignoring Tolkien's Galadriel as he wrote the character. She is arguably the wisest of all the Elves in Middle Earth. She survives the First Age because she does not partake in the war against Morgoth. She recognizes that it is a hopeless endeavor and that the Elves need to mend the rifts among themselves and with the Valar to have any hope of surviving. This wisdom comes to her over the long, painful centuries of loss after loss. Such a character would be above the pettiness of mere revenge.

@AliciatheCho

11 ай бұрын

​@@gunkulator1 There are many vengeance stories out there and "Moby Dick" didn't occur me because there's few parallels between Galadriel's revenge. Moby Dick is being hunted as part of the horrible whaling industry. Biting off Ishmael's leg was self-defense and trying to seek revenge is pure vanity. Sauron is a primordial demigod with some deeply misguided ideological views mixed with grandiose narcissism (not hugely different from Galadriel tbh). While her vengeance is self-serving, it's not a bad idea to block/impede Sauron's return. But if she "kills" his physical form, it only forestalls his return. Like how long does Galadriel expect to keep up her revenge against another, more powerful immortal?

@AliciatheCho

11 ай бұрын

@@gunkulator1 Finding reasons for her obsession in lore is neither here nor there. This is an adaption (I use the term loosely). The first writing rule for adaptations is to assume the audience has no familiarity with source material. While I am familiar with lore, the audience shouldn't have to read lore to understand what's happening in the show. Thus the only character motives that count are those given in the adaptation itself. And that's where it gets confusing because we're not given a good reason for why Galadriel is obsessed. She is hardly the only Elf who suffered due to Morgoth's reign. This is where the audience would have to know more than armchair psychology. My best friend is a psychiatrist who watched the show is this her theory: People respond to grief differently but not randomly. Galadriel has high social rank which causes people to have higher levels of narcissism and sense of control. She says she wants to stop but she continuously makes choices that defy this. The profile of a revenge-seeker is also high narcissism. People with high narcissism don't have the tool to self-regulate and feel entitled to impose order onto the external world. That is, Galadriel doesn't have the tools to control her emotions, so she tries to control others and outcomes. That's crazy because you can't. In short, Galadriel has narcissistic entitlement to her revenge and a fair world. Basically, high social rank and pride left her too emotionally immature to process her grief and anger. She even took a job in the army as a means to fulfill these goals. And it’s hard to heal when your job is the very “thing that happened.” She’s stuck in an addiction cycle, we think. And, the way it’s written, she’s had enablers. Elrond is waaay to forgiving of her condescending toward him. His semi-accusation of her being wrong and leading other Elves to die is a conversation that should have happened a long time ago. But you know, it’s just bad writing lol

Nailed it. Good job. 👍

@JesseTate

11 ай бұрын

Cheers!! Appreciate it

Because it has zero Tolkien in it .

It's bad writing that doesn't respect the source material and the spirit of Tolkien's work. A prestige project lacking passion.

I agree with you on many things, but not necessarily on the idea of films being driven by character relationships. Before anything, a good story is driven by action. Think of your favorite film and then think of the most memorable moment from the film. LOTR: merry and pippen chucking rocks at the Urukai. Star Wars: Jar Jar mishandling a booma ball in the memorable and frequently discussed Battle of Naboo, unintentionally taking out one of those sick spaceships and altering the future of the planet forever. Avengers: when that massive worm runs into buildings in NYC. Kung fu panda: when he is wrestling the tiger and they roll down the steps together. Sick. I could go on and on. My point is clear though. Action. Action action action. What does a film have if it doesn't have some proper action. Nothing. People talking and forming connections with each other and the audience doesn't mean anything if they don't throw a few solid punches, mishandle the odd booma ball, or smash a building. Okay video, just a bit of an elementary understanding of story

@BrianBlais

11 ай бұрын

It's not action -- there are many films with action but no story. It's the characters -- if there is no character development then there is no story. I think relationships help to communicate the individual character arcs, but it is those arcs that are the driver. It's not when merry and pippen are throwing rocks that's powerful. It's when the Ents start trashing Isengard and Saruman, who has been shown to be uncaring and ruthless, is about to get handed his hat. The upward arc of the ents and the downward arc of Saruman is what makes it a powerful point. Without change there is no story -- which is why ROP fails so much.

@JesseTate

11 ай бұрын

Hahaha thank you Brian. Very well said. Unfortunately this is my brother trying wilfully to annoy me. And I agree we could dive into that point of change much more. Every scene should have an inflection point, changing the momentum or arc of a character, creating or relieving tension, and so on. Actions should have personal rather than simply practical consequences. Totally

@annafdd

11 ай бұрын

@@JesseTate tell me he is your half brother trying to usurp the throne and you were banished into exile for holding a sword to his neck at the gates of… I think I MAY have been reading too much Tolkien.

The problem, as with most of hollywood products these days, is elementary. You don't hire morons with brain injuries to write your scripts.

Are you Irish or American? I cannot tell what your accent is.

@JesseTate

8 ай бұрын

American! Born and raised in California. I've been traveling since I was 19 though, and do often get questions about my accent. Because of this, and a long term relationships with a non-native speaker, I tend to adapt quite unthinkingly to whatever sort of environment I'm in, even sometimes adopting somewhat Spanish/Portuguese tones. It's an odd thing! Sometimes it can seem pretentious to others but I think it happens pretty subconsciously.

RoP has always seemed like a cheap pantomime, made by mid high school drama students. I simply cannot believe or buy into the fact that this was a SERIOUS show, made by professionals. It is awful in any way you cut this nonsense

@darinpeaker216

Ай бұрын

Good description.

WARRIORR GALADRRIEL!! 🗡💪😈🔥🐴

@acece64

10 ай бұрын

Why leave a commentmwhen you can't even spell !!

10:29 - lol, he looks like the Seer out of Krull! I love imagining what Peter Jackson could have done with 4 times his entire trilogy budget. Whatever the budget he would have focused on the authors story and messages; and not modernize/politicize it! Even if it had been a stand-alone, nothing to do with Tolkien's works, the same inherent problems and issues would still be there, it just wouldn't be vandalizing and bastardizing one of the greatest literary works ever created! 10:35 - To see if you've finished your other video. One does not simply talk about More Thoughts! >XD