If you enjoyed this video please consider supporting us via patreon where we also have a podcast episode about the Lord of the Rings musical! www.patreon.com/verityritchie

@mytandasouder4485

Жыл бұрын

@@fantasywind3923 it probably one of my favorite stories from unfinished tales!

@andrewlustfield6079

Жыл бұрын

Rings of Power abjectly failed for so many reasons. Using Galadriel as a main POV was a terrible mistake. There is zero tension in any of her scenes because we all know that she and Celeborn leave for Valinor at the end of Return of the King. Further, the way she was written, she was just another Mary-Sue character who could do no wrong. It wasn't that she had a sword. It was that she wasn't a strong character at all. Ripley from Aliens was a strong character. In Lord of the Rings, Galadriel was a strong character. In this? She was a total Mary Sue. The flirtation with Saurron was enough to make Tolkien roll over in his grave. The isn't he or is he game with who Sauron was seemed juvenile and not worthy of a serious Tolkien adaptation. And the whole nonsense of Gandalf being the stranger---who thought that was a good idea? Whoever edited this should have been fired. A more serious script might have looked a lot more like HBO's Rome, where we focus on minor, unnamed characters as they interact with characters like Galadriel and Elrond and Durin. Just like they used Vorenus and Pullo in Rome, even though their lives were being directly impacted by the likes of Ceasar and Mark Antony, Ciscrio etc. Then we could have had characters who we could place a stake in, we could worry about them--their success and failure would mean something. Did anyone worry when Galadriel was engulfed in the volcanic flash. No. Because we know she is on one of the last ships to Valinor with Celeborn. Arondiel and Ada were the two most interesting characters out of the whole lot of them. We could feel real jeopardy for them. And the proto hobits? Way to go if you like reinforcing every negative stereotype about Irish people. They were not part of the lore and had nothing to do with the forging of the rings of power. Their treatment of the Numinorians wasn't anything like they were in cannon, who were blessed by the Valar and equals of the elves. What we got was the keystone cops. Yes, they became corrupt after a while but not before they imprisoned Sauron and took him back to Numenor. The overall script writing seemed more like Tolkien fan fic with a billion dollar price tag. That's why this flopped and deservedly so. Jackson crafted his Lord of the Rings trilogy with love and reverence for the source materiel. That's why it's one of the best movie trilogies of all time. Rings of Power belongs in the duct-bin of history alongside Witcher Blood Origins. If you don't like Tolkien don't read him. If you want a different kind of fantasy--fine. Write one. More power to you. But don't try to rework his world into your vision of what you think it should have been, leaning on his world building and his creativity and expect it to go very well.

@rijjhb9467

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting video, it was way smarter than the average KZread video. Speaking about races though, I didn't like the Jew erasure. Hollywood is run by Jews, not white men. That's one of their greatest accomplishments, why do you want to take it away from them? Sure, you could say that Jews are white, and fair enough, they can be considered white, but again, this sounds like Jew erasure.

@andrewlustfield6079

Жыл бұрын

@@fantasywind3923 The problem with the characters is why I think Rome is a much better model than GOT for writers at Amazon to follow. Sure, we have the named characters and we deal with them. If you want Galadriel to be a military captain--great. Then make our POV character her lieutenant or even a private soldier in her command. Now we can see and feel the impact of her decisions, while we are invested in the character in her command. For the actual forging of the rings, have our POV be an apprentice to Celebrimbor. Or perhaps it could be one of the dwarves--maybe the smith who forges Narsil that is gifted to Elendil. Then use these characters to lean into the lore instead of trying to "fix" it. Arondir has several problems, to be sure. The romance is the biggest one. The human, elf romance belongs to other characters--Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen, so it was as out of place as the romance between Kili and Tauriel in the Hobbit movies. It just shows how out of ideas they are. That said, he was still probably the most interesting character out of all of them. It's not a high threshold to cross. I am really of the opinion that if you are going to work on an adaptation of an IP, you should be a true fan of that IP.

@moritzmonska9912

Жыл бұрын

Gut geslayed digger

Making the elf guys short haired was a crime.

@theriverspath

Жыл бұрын

Hard agree.

@uprisingsun9105

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Elves need the long hair.

@annabeatrizzimmermann7708

Жыл бұрын

fr ir was

@amrys_argent

Жыл бұрын

Every time I see this version of Elrond, I keep wanting to tell him to give Kurt Russell his hair back.

@samaraisnt

Жыл бұрын

unfeminizing our elves=hate crime prove me wrong.

Galadriel has lived so long that her hair radiates the energy of the trees from which the moon and sun were plucked as fruit, why the hell does the show treat her like a young adult when she's literally one of the oldest creatures on the planet besides the ents and maiar

@Gontaza

Жыл бұрын

Círdan: "Am I a joke to you?"

@paleposter

Жыл бұрын

It felt like they treated her like a romance novel/Hallmark Christmas movie protagonist. Her role for most of the runtime felt too much like “ice queen who has to defrosted”. We also got a problematic hunky guy to play the opposite part

@Jacob-yg7lz

Жыл бұрын

@@Gontaza "One of", not necessarily "the"

@Gontaza

Жыл бұрын

@@Jacob-yg7lz I get it and I agree with your point. I would've liked a scene betwen Galadriel and Círdan showing their age, wisdom and foresight. But I don't have high hopes

@tetrahedron9196

Жыл бұрын

@@Gontaza You can only write what you know.

As a black man I’ve always enjoyed the LOTR. Just because I didn’t see black people in it didn’t stop me from enjoying the stories and characters. It’s all fiction anyway! Tolkien was a white man who wrote a story from the perspective of white men to appeal to white people. I don’t care, because I don’t need to be part of the white world. I could care less. I want to see somebody black do the same thing he did and create a story from our perspective. That’s far more appealing than just throwing in some token black people for diversity’s sake.

@foofieviolet

10 ай бұрын

Seriously would love to see some epic African fantasy series based on African languages, cultures, history, and legends. I mean Black Panther proved beyond a doubt that there is a market for it, it's what the people want!

@rafiki4444

9 ай бұрын

You’re missing the point. Consider rewatching. Some people are just not as good at listening comprehension, because they’re not descendant from an ancient king who heard the song of Gods and traveled West.

@regularshowman3208

9 ай бұрын

@@foofieviolet It's only two books and I only read the first one, but Raybearer is really fuckin good. It's YA, but it's honestly really awesome and handles its worldbuilding in a way that feels extremely natural.

@wareforcoin5780

9 ай бұрын

This is me for female characters as a woman. I'm perfectly happy with an all dude cast. I watch RuPaul's Drag Race, I'm _expecting_ to watch all men sometimes. I get irritated when people say something just "needs more women." Like, no, the quantity of women present in the cast will not inherently improve something. I've never found a female character that I relate more to than I would if that character was male. I don't need to be reflected in every piece of art.

@emilwandel

9 ай бұрын

​@@wareforcoin5780if women are only portraited as objects to own or to serve men it really feels like the world is flat and colorless because half of the perspective of the world is missing. This would be different if women would just not exist in the world like black or asian people or a world were human can populate with only one gender.

Blanchett felt tall because of the camera angles and the costume design. The curls in her hair, the way it hangs over her shoulder and matches the draped and wavy fabric of the dress creates a long silhouette that could've very easily been done with ROP too

@yay-cat

Жыл бұрын

Yeah like Ian Mckellin is taller than Eliga Wood but some garden variety Hollywood trickery made Gandalf appear double the hobbit’s height

@MsHermyGranger

Жыл бұрын

She has a Dramatic body type (by Kibbe). She has long vertical features and they also make her seem taller than she is

@kittencadaver2744

Жыл бұрын

@@MsHermyGranger she also wore white gogo boots to help as well!

@user-qj9en1kp1m

9 ай бұрын

In the Amazon tv-show 90% of the time whem "Galadriel" was on screen I had the urge to offer her a hairbrush.

@Reiknar

5 ай бұрын

@@yay-cat "Garden variety Hollywood trickery" 🤣 What nonsense. Calling it garden variety implies that it is simple, and easy to pull off, to make it work right. It's not, and the way Peter Jackson, his crew and the actors handled it was masterclass.

A problem I always had is how synthetic Amazon originals look and feel. I think that style does not work for Lord of the Rings due to how Tolkien really liked the natural world.

@gothicanimeangel96

Жыл бұрын

It's super weird because it seems like they were trying to give storybook, but instead we get something that looks like it's trying really hard but ultimately brings to mind game concept art. It does not help the atmosphere that the whole thing is really pedantically written.

@jarltrippin

Жыл бұрын

That's something that bothers me with these streaming services in general. They all have a "look."

@thomaskalbfus2005

Жыл бұрын

Well its Amazon! Amazons are warrior women!

@sleepysera

Жыл бұрын

Ohh, that makes so much sense. I've always wondered why something always felt kind of...off? to me about their historical or fantasy series, visually. Yet I loved the look of their Sci-Fi or IT-related shows. "Synthetic" is a great way to describe it; and for more modern settings that fits the visual tone and style of the show perfectly well, but it kind of clashes with something like this.

@GnosticAtheist

Жыл бұрын

Yes, AI has come far, they should probably wait to make that thing rule their scripts. Seriously, a language model would do better even at the current state, compared to Amazons version.

I like how you pointed out that despite Galadriel in ROP being an OP warrior woman with swords and swirly armour, she doesn't have the _commanding, intimidating presence_ that Cate Blanchett brought to the role. All the LOTR Galadriel does is float around all pretty-like and yet she comes across much more badass imo

@theriverspath

Жыл бұрын

This. It's not even just about physical stature, either. The other elves treat her like a child. She comes off as petulant because her peers alternate gas lighting her, indulging her, or placating her.

@Icetea-2000

Жыл бұрын

@@theriverspath the writers also seem to not acknowledge that she’s been alive for THOUSANDS of years already. Like Elrond is also eons old, and he looks like a child. Btw, he goes to looking like 2001 Hugo Weaving in 100 years, and then stays the same for the next 3000 years They were like "uhhh they’re younger…. sooo they have to look younger right? What do you mean they’re immortal? I don’t get it"

@azentra7560

Жыл бұрын

​@@Icetea-2000 let's also not forget that on top of the physical transformation that Elrond undergoes in those 100 years, he goes from super smooth talking politician to ultimate warlord/general commanding the entire elven army and fighting on the front lines during the battle of the last alliance in that same timespan.

@Icetea-2000

Жыл бұрын

@@azentra7560 Yeah true, their political position as well, both Galadriel and Elrond seem like subordinates when really they were some of the highest ranking elves in existence even back then Also Gilgalad looks too much like a normal dude. He doesn’t look at all like the last legendary king of the Noldor

@Hiraghm

Жыл бұрын

The Superman effect. Look at Christopher Reeve's Superman. He no longer leaps into the air, but calmly.. lifts... off. He's not loud, he's not given to flashes of emotion. When he does go off, it's all that much scarier. Superman comes off as powerful because of the confidence he emanates. He doesn't have to get excited or express extremes of emotion, because he knows with absolutely certainty, at the end of the day, he's got this. He's capable of handling whatever happens. Galadriel gave off that same vibe in LotR.

Tolkien would've hated Amazon, and so should all of you.

@PhilHibbs

2 ай бұрын

I think I bought maybe three things from Amazon over ten years ago.

@bkolumban

Ай бұрын

No he wouldn't; he would be a stupid rich white guy with problematic (read super racist) ideas and hating everyone for pointing that out.

“He basically just didn’t like technology. Or, loud noises.” Same, Tolkien. Same.

@pallydan893

4 ай бұрын

The Beatles move in down the hall Tolkien: ORCS!

@BlackLotus30

4 ай бұрын

you would too after experiencing a WW.

@hannibalburgers477

2 ай бұрын

Literally me. I also like Goth chicks

@nickmilo932

Ай бұрын

There's plenty of tribes that live distanced from society, noise and technology. One of them would probably let you join them.

@connorscanlan2167

18 күн бұрын

​@@nickmilo932 Well, Tolkien tells us Hobbits love small, wholesome machines, things like looms and the like. And they certainly love their coffee and cakes and getting breakfast multiple times a day. I'm sure they'd appreciate clean drinking water and convenient human waste disposal.

The mistake Amazon made was thinking that Galadriel wasn't already a warrior. Galadriel doesn't need to wield a sword to be a warrior because she already possesses the most powerful weapon of all: wisdom. She is respected and feared, and considered one of the most powerful beings in all of Arda because of her intelligence, wisdom, will, and authority.

@annarita333

Жыл бұрын

Even Finrod´s own fight with Sauron and his defeat (where Galadriel in the series gets her whole motivation for everything) is described as a battle fought with "Songs of Power". A lot of the Feanorians and other members of the house of Finwe had this "Power" and used it. So to portray Elves as purely physical beings is just short shighted and goes against their very nature

@AdamWhistle1

Жыл бұрын

@@annarita333 It makes writing for visual medium better however, because once you introduce magic how do you stop it from being the obvious solution to every problem? You have to establish enough for the audience to know whether magic is a solution or not to most problems (otherwise you get the wiseass "but why didn't they just ride the eagles to the vulcano?" remarks). It is not an incorrigible problem but having Galadriel a warrior (which makes sense for her) simplifies that problem immensely, especially when you are balancing several plotlines and every minute of airtime has something insane like a six-minute cost to what is already the most expensive TV show in history.

@wrestlinganime4life288

Жыл бұрын

Basically they turned her into Yoda during the prequel.

@KevinJohnson-cv2no

Жыл бұрын

"The most powerful weapon of all: wisdom" So if I lobbed a mace through your skull, would wisdom project some sort of shield to protect you?

@inabsolutedarkness13

Жыл бұрын

​@@KevinJohnson-cv2no so, Galadriel will probably already have infiltrated into your mind (as she does when she speaks to Frodo) and probably show you a vision so traumatizing that you probably don't remember how to wield a maze in the first place lol

The hair was the first thing I noticed too. They made everything way more gendered, mind blowingly, you'd think it'd be the opposite.

@Oxaphosphetane

Жыл бұрын

The hairstyles really are jarring, aren't they? And if they were trying to match the aesthetics of the Peter Jackson films, how did they miss that the main male characters in the films have long hair? Even the hobbits, who arguably have short hair, have longer hair than the guys in the series, haha.

@hurktang

Жыл бұрын

The virtue signaling bunch is often the most racists. They claim they are better, they are often worst.

@aino-kaisav5504

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, I haven't many complaints about the character designs. But those short-haired elves......

@hllyenaylleth9576

Жыл бұрын

Not sure why that would surprise you, that's how they operate.

@Alalea17

9 ай бұрын

I think its just to push that sex is binary agenda :I

I never imagined a production where Galadriel would be insufferable. No shade to the actor who was doing her job as directed, the infantilization was over the top, she's not 16, she's supposed to be old enough to be plenty competent and measured.

@ashtonpalmer5035

4 ай бұрын

She is well over a few thousand years old and not far from being one of the oldest characters in the series. A powerful and wise ruler who is as far from young and reckless as one can get. The giving her a sword was silly not becuase she could not wield one competently but in comparison to her other powers and abilities it is near useless, as nearly the only person in middle earth that could hold her own against Souron and having imense political power why would she ever enter hand to hand combat. It is the equivalent of a modern president or prime minister deciding to join battle themselves and restrict themselves to a bayonet.

@swimmingmide

4 ай бұрын

She is older than the actual sun in the canon story if my memory is correct. The trees were older than her, but the sun was created after Feanor became a Kinkiller and cursed the middle earth elves.

@Nerobyrne

4 ай бұрын

I thought it wasn't as bad as most people, because to her, humans would be essentially mayflies the size of elves with one foot behind Sauron. Makes sense she'd treat them like trash.

@swimmingmide

4 ай бұрын

@@Nerobyrne She was a high born elven princess raised in an elven court and directly related to the high king of the elves. She was a diplomat and raised to host people in her father's halls and eventually her own forest. She would have had courtisy and respect for others drilled into her from a very young age. She should have behaved like she did in the books and movies. Where is her husband? They were together for the entire Silmarillion.

@Nerobyrne

4 ай бұрын

@@swimmingmide have you ever met a politician?

My problem isn't with whatever Galadriel is doing, it's that her brother Finrod got fridged without doing any of the cool stuff he's known for doing, like fighting Sauron in a rap battle or killing werewolves with just his bare hands, his teeth and his dying breath.

@Vivigreeny25

Ай бұрын

Utterly PISSED I knew NONE of these things before reading this comment. Where has this man been my whole life.

@elisabetlagato1520

23 күн бұрын

They also erased her other two brothers! Like I know Angrod and Aegnor aren’t that important but they still existed! (Also Aegnor had a tragic romance with a human woman, they could literally make parallels with the human/elf relationship in this show)

The thing that upset me most about the Amazon show was that elves didn't have long hair and dwarf women didn't have beards. WHY????

@orangutangarama9870

Жыл бұрын

Because the studio couldn't market a bearded woman. But they knew fans would complain so they made her black so anyone who did complain could just be called racist

@ecthelionofthefountain8267

Жыл бұрын

They couldn't afford wigs for the Elves because they spent all the money on crappy CGI.

@user-pi8pi3wj7h

Жыл бұрын

@@orangutangarama9870 This is a stupid take, if they knew people would complain about the race they'd have gone through with the bearded woman thing anyways by that same logic

@18laxX

Жыл бұрын

@@orangutangarama9870 bearded dwarf women sounds pretty marketable to me. That’d be an eye-catcher on an advertisement no doubt.

@user-xh1vi6et5l

2 ай бұрын

Because no one in the production read the books

Thank you for pointing out the ways that enforcing "boys have short hair and women have long hair", doing away with female dwarves having beards, and portraying Galadriel as even more diminutive is a cowardly interpretation of gender in Tolkien. It's also validating to hear why short hair doesn't actually make sense for most of these characters. I tried to be open minded but it always felt so wildly incongruous.

@Flozone1

Жыл бұрын

It is also pretty insulting if you brand yourself as showing diversity and so on, but shy away from actually showing more divergent gender norms. Gay characters okay, but bearded women is were it ends!!!

@dzonbrodi514

Жыл бұрын

Yeah FR a lot of those haircuts are really modern and carefully tended, it's really jarring visually

@TheBananamonger

Жыл бұрын

But they put black people in so you shouldnt be noticing the flaws! You should just be praising the existence of black people and the show runners should be praised for letting black people into LotR, a property no black person was allowed to like before 2022

@IMayOrMayHaveNot

Жыл бұрын

People who wrote this show were too obsessed with gender roles to realize how insulting these decisions would be. They literally overwrote the cultural traits Tolkien created just because it didn't fit their narrow perception of feminine/masculine. High-key petty and self-centered atittude. It's like taking a black person's coily hair and go "Your hair is wrong, where *I* come from straight hair is what's considered good-looking, so we'll straighten yours".

@jackrutledgegoembel5896

Жыл бұрын

it ALWAYS disappoints me when corporate committee-led "diverse" casting is chosen to reflect the demographics of the modern USA in some fantasy universe instead of working with, and expanding on, the already-existent diversity and nonconformity in a text. Like, they had such an opportunity to really play with the way gender presentation works in this universe, but instead they just had to make everyone seem "normal" albeit "diverse" in the most generic sense.

One important facet of tolkeins worldbuilding is that the more powerful you are, the more static you are, the more eternal and unchanging. You're more force of nature than person. An immortal elf thats 12,000 years old doesnt have much personal flexibility than the cycle of seasons. This means characters at the top end having PLANS rather than ARCS. That ends up a problem for a story, and its why Tolkein liked to follow smaller folk who were more temporal, it meant they evolved and changed. Galadrial is extremely powerful and so she doesnt have a lot of room to change. Not a good protagonist choice.

@DreamersOfReality

12 күн бұрын

Just a little nitpick, but in the source material, doesn't Galadriel change? She resisted the temptation of the ring, "passed" her test, and at long last, decided she would accept fading and returning west?

I remain FURIOUS at the Injustices Amazon has done unto Celebrian: they broke up her happily-wed power couple parents, erased her own existence, aged her husband up to look older than his own mother-in-law... and continued the live-action trend of UN-yassifying Elrond. ELROND! GRANDSON OF LUTHIEN! FATHER OF ARWEN! Left a short-haired, visibly middle-aged dude. smh at this constant Disrespect to Celebrian, honestly. the only other live-action Tolkien characters who have been as Aggregriously Wronged by the Un-Yassifying of Tolkien characters is... the entirety of Middle-Earth, by way of PJ's LOTR rendering Gimli as anything except THE Most Eligible Bachelor of the Third Age. u_u JUSTICE FOR CELEBRIAN! JUSTICE FOR EREBOR! JUSTICE FOR LEGOLAS!

@lewisirwin5363

4 ай бұрын

Dunno about Middle-aged, if anything he looks too Tom Holland for me here

@beckmannm

4 ай бұрын

Gimli the most eligible bachelor is RIGHT!!!

@annamelvina216

4 ай бұрын

I haven't watched the show, but Elrond is fairly young compared to a lot of elves. It probably would have been better if he wasn't in ROP at all.

@uncletomalex

3 ай бұрын

@@lewisirwin5363 I think the person who responded mixed Elrond and Celebrimbor depiction on the show

@joebloe4734

Ай бұрын

Can I ask what you mean by the un-yassification of Elrond?

Also, the thing about Galadriel's husband is pretty fucked up if you think about it. She mentions him in brief passing. But, she even says she doesn't know if her husband is dead or missing or whatever. And...I mean, what? Your husband might be alive and you're not going through hell itself to look for him, but your dead brother, that tips you over the edge? And you go off to avenge your brother instead of look for your husband? That throwaway scene actually does a lot of harm to her character. A lot. But, I mean, it's Rings of Power. Expectations aren't very high.

@verindictus3639

Жыл бұрын

It gets worse if you realize that since all elves who die in Middle-Earth go to the halls of Mandos, which is in Valinor, and Galadriel would know this. And so, when she refused to go to Valinor, she was refusing a chance to be reunited with her brother in person.

@Notsogoodguitarguy

Жыл бұрын

@@verindictus3639 I dunno about that. I'm going purely off of the movie. But then, yeah, you're right. If this exists in their universe, then it's even worse.

@tavoreparan8091

Жыл бұрын

My speculation is that her husband poofed *during* her hunt for Sauron, so she would've been faced with a choice of continuing her current obsession or getting distracted into what might very well be a false rumor. It's still a slap in the face to give him no consideration except a literal passing mention, but one way to read the scene is that she's realizing that it may have been a mistake to dismiss Celeborn's absence as a non-problem. (Of course, the problem with *that* reading is that it was never set up properly, so that wasn't a payoff, but structurally incoherent writing is kinda Rings of Power's whole thing.)

@ptlemon1101

Жыл бұрын

It get evens worse when you know that in Middle-Earth, when elves marry, their souls literally become connected with each other

@Laurelin70

Жыл бұрын

@@ptlemon1101 Yes, but it's said that husband and wife CAN live separately for years, just because they have different interests.

The idea of a 6'4" Man-Maiden is the Galadriel of my dreams and all the depictions I've seen so far have left me wanting.

@QLIES

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. But if it helps, I got to say Cate Blanchett without make-up is one of the most handsome women I've ever seen in IRL.

@alalalala57

Жыл бұрын

​@@QLIES A true man-maiden, especially with that voice.

@PrettyGuardian

Жыл бұрын

@@alalalala57 Cate Blanchett is a wonderful actress who has an ethereal beauty and brought a lot of life to the role. Calling her a "man-maiden" is more than a stretch for me though. Plus I'm not a fan of certain effects PJ went with for the elves such as the backlighting which seemed like a community theater level effect at best.

@kitkakitteh

Жыл бұрын

Man-maiden? Wtf?

@lexa2310

Жыл бұрын

Is a man-maiden a woman that is considered more "masculine" than normal?

Me: the elves having modern hairstyles reminds me of movies based in the dark ages/fantasy worlds during the 1980s but all the characters look like motley crue. This video: I feel like I'm going to get Rick-rolled at any moment. Me: By the Gods!

Tolkien’s reply to German publishers of the Hobbit who had asked if he was purely Aryan: “I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian... But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.”

When they started talking about Amazon being able to bridge the gap between media and retail eliminating their competitors I literally said to myself "and in darkness bind them"

@duncancameron6342

4 ай бұрын

"and in the warehouse bind them"

Really like how in-depth this dive went and yet still maintained the nuance of time and how people can grow.

"They want us to ship Galadriel and Sauron." You know, at this point I think they should just double down on this and have Galadriel redeem Sauron through the Power of Love and avert the entire plot of LotR. At least it would be funny.

The „It‘s all terribly American“ had me laughting so hard. It sums it up perfectly

@andresacosta4832

6 ай бұрын

I didn't really get it because I've been exposed to that kind of story before, but I think I'm starting to...?

@thelastonetofall108

4 ай бұрын

I was about to comment exctly that.

@ncpolley

4 ай бұрын

I'm not entirely sure it's "American" but it is an American movie trope.

The most lore accurate adaptation is clearly shadow of war. Sexy Shelob was clearly what Tolkien had in mind

@koboldcatgirl

Жыл бұрын

You have to admit, her and Galadriel being exes does explain her antipathy to the light. No other possible explanation.

@kenobents2741

Жыл бұрын

This gives me flashbacks of the sexy shelob greentext

@renaigh

Жыл бұрын

I mean those games are single handedly responsible for making the Orcs actually interesting.

@brooksboy78

Жыл бұрын

@@renaigh Do they, though? They're pretty boring there, too.

@alalalala57

Жыл бұрын

​@@brooksboy78 No? That was the whole highlight of the games. Orcs are fun in those.

I think a really interesting thing to examine when it comes to Tolkein's thoughts on race is the Kin-Strife. The Kin-Strife is a bit of Gondorian history that takes place about 1500 years before the start of LoTR. The King of Gondor marries a Rhovanion woman and his only son, Eldacar, is mixed race. When he dies there is a massive civil war and Eldacar's throne is usurped and he is forced from the capital for decades. What's interesting about this is that the rebels, who are essentially blood purists who hate the idea of the royal house of Gondor being mingled with the blood of "lesser Men", are very clearly depicted as the bad guys. The Kin-Strife tears Gondor apart and greatly accelerates its decline. The Capital Osgiliath is half-destroyed and its Palantir is lost. The usurper Castamir is a tyrant, remembered as the worst ruler in Gondorian history. And, most notably, they are shown to be _wrong._ Eldacar eventually retakes the throne, and for the next six hundred years the kings of Gondor are mixed race and not pure Numenorean, all the way up until the royal line dies out entirely. Indeed not just the royal house but also Gondor's noble houses all are said to marry non Numenoreans a lot more frequently after the Kin-Strife (partly because so many of them died in the civil war that they had to just to repopulate). And the decline of the Numenoreans, the slow waning of their lifespans as the centuries pass, _is not notably affected in any way._ Interbreeding with "lesser Men" has nothing to do with the decline of the Numenoreans because that decline was never about genetics or heridity or anything like that, but was rather a divine blessing that had been withdrawn. There's certainly still a lot of uncomfortable racial undertones in Tolkein's writing, but I think this bit of in-universe history is a really illuminating of the way he himself struggled with those implications.

@brooksboy78

Жыл бұрын

Yes! That's such a good point. I don't think it negates some of the racist undertones, but it certainly provides a much more nuanced picture.

@rafexrafexowski4754

Жыл бұрын

What I also find interesting is that the Haradrim, the black-skinned people, only become "evil" after white guys from Numenor started ruling over them. They were called the Black (i.e. evil) Numenoreans. And after the destruction of the ring the Haradrim almost instantly join Aragorn's side, showing that they have been oppressed by Sauron into serving him.

@totraspook

Жыл бұрын

​@@rafexrafexowski4754 Do the Haradrim join Aragorn immediately? I remember some fleeing, some fighting because though 'evil' they are 'proud' (something like that), and some capitulating.

@davidtaylor142

Жыл бұрын

Tolkien is a great example of a "man of his time" in the correct usage of the term. He was pretty socially progressive for his time, he just also grew up with fucked up race science ideas from his society. Another example is Robert Jordan and his feminism. Super dated by today's standards but really progressive for the time

@Tounushi

Жыл бұрын

There is a metaphysical element to bloodlines in Tolkien's world, but it isn't as straightforward or superficial as simple bloodline purity. I'm almost willing to wager the purest Numenorean bloodlines on Middle Earth outside of the Arnorian royal house were whatever Black Numenorean ruling class was in power in Umbar. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them start sporting Habsburg jaws. And they'd still see their longevity wane generation after generation at perhaps even greater rates than Gondorians, leading to further desperation to "top off" their übermensch characteristics through Sauron's crafts. Even Elrond and Elros were both 1/16 Maia, 9/16 elf and 6/16 edain, with one choosing to be an elf and the other a human, so if we'd go with strict materialist genetics, both should have immortality or both should have long but finite mortal lifespans. But Tolkien's world is not fully materialistic and their choice of "race" was metaphysical. Elros gave up life at around his 500s and later kings of Numenor desperately struggled to live half as long with their bodies and minds wracked by the ravages of advanced age. Aragorn dozens of generations later passed at 210 voluntarily and still with healthy mind and body.

"Half the male elves make me feel like I'm getting Rick-Rolled" the soprano SCREAM I just let out, LMAO!!!

I think one of the best ways of making something like the orcs was the approach the writers of Dragon Age had towards the darkspawn. The way they reproduce is actually explored in the game and it's chilling, but I can see why Jackson might not have wanted to do something so gruesome. In my humble opinion, the best way to have gone is to have set at least the first season in Harad, Numenor and introduce the Blacklock dwarves, maybe even the Avar. Hell, so little is known about the two wizards sent west that you could have made them as two old ladies. You can still have Miriel as black, maybe her father married a woman from Harad and you'd have a cast of mostly black people. And no one would have batted an eye. I wanted long-haired elves, bearded dwarven women, I wanted far Harad and Easterlings, the Avar as dark skinned elves, the Blacklocks as dark-skinned dwarves, a half Numenor Miriel Queen storyline who is usurped and forced into marriage with her own cousin Ar-Pharazon (like in the books) but working to undermine him from within, I wanted to see the brotherhood between Isildur and Anarion, etc. Honestly Isildur and Elrond should have been the main characters. Period. Because they are perhaps the two names most fans and even those who aren't fans know and we should actually care about how and why Isildur became corrupted by the time he has to cast the ring into the flame and refuses to. Galadriel as a main character doesn't work at all. I would have used her sparingly, or I'd have placed her to play off against Durin the Deathless, the only dwarf who comes to life time and time again. Like how must that feel? To be constantly reincarnated when your people need you and to see how things change, not always for the better for your kind?

@DaveGrean

4 ай бұрын

It's honestly ... VERY bold of you to assume that 'no one would have batted an eye' in the situation you've described. Obviously plenty of bigots would still have had meltdowns and called it 'forced diversity' just for focussing on a cast of minorities. As they do every single time, regardless of how much sense the diversity makes in the story. Ever heard of Star Wars, Star Trek? Marvel and DC? Literally the vast majority of popular media, with cases like Rings of Power, Cleopatra, or Snow White, where the diversity as implemented did indeed not make much sense, being relatively exceptional?

@IllJoy

4 ай бұрын

Hey guys I found a tourist

@melkormorgothbauglir.4848

3 ай бұрын

@@DaveGrean Yes but people who's opinion actually matters wouldn't care about it and probably would have enjoyed the show.

@mizzymiao

3 ай бұрын

i know you made this comment months ago, but just wanted to let you know, I love your ideas. That's exactly what was bothering me! I would have loved if they had written it that way! It would have picked up loose threads from the films, given new ideas on diversity a propper introduction and we would have had protagonists that everyone would actually feel emotionally invested in. I feel robbed of that experiece 😢

@ana-mariabobe1762

3 ай бұрын

@@DaveGreanmost pleople aren't bigots. They just refuse the forced tokenism being shoved down our throats. If the story they wrote/the characters were good, most people would have backed down that it's forced diversity. Also with no rights to the Silmarillion they could have stretched their wings writing a good tale in the one place we know very little about, about people we also know very little about.

Thank you for validating my strong instinct that elves with short hair are a hate crime.

@sportenapfeltorten2095

Жыл бұрын

lol :o)

I think if we're going to include diversity in this work, then it would serve Tolkien's work and its betterment to explore the regions he never got to fully develop. Harad, Rhûn, and Khand have interested me in the last few years as the spots where POC heroes should come from, and the lack of their lore allows us to fill in the gaps without sacrificing consistency. Tolkien wrote of the Haradrim being controlled by Numenor just before it fell. He wrote about black subjugation under under white colonialism. This story does not need colorblind casting when you have regions full of nonwhite people. They could have given us Haradrim heroes fighting against the tyranny of Numenor under Ar Pharazon only to join with Elendil and the elves in the battle of the last alliance. They could have had the blue wizards played by Asian and Middle-Eastern actors go into Rhûn and find their own hero of a thousand faces to face the darkness in that land. We could have had dark skinned Avari elves with an unheard of culture living under the sun rather than trees and caves, or shown any of the other four tribes of the dwarves. We don't need colorblind casting in a mythos that is big enough to include everyone although the obstacle of geography must be included in the setting....except maybe for the Valar and Maiar who could literally look like anything whenever they wanted. Tolkien's Ainur would be perfect for a colorblind cast.

@CaptainPieBeard

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! You can have a diverse cast and still respect the rules of the fantasy world that were laid down by the original author. Tolkien didn't have colored elves for the same reason that the real world doesn't have colored Swedes. (Setting aside immigration) A group of Avari, with dark features and skin would be a brilliant extension of Tolkien's work while still being true to the original rules and vision. Or, as you pointed out, just create a character from a land that is populated by different races! How did they mess this up so horribly?

@RoseBaggins

Жыл бұрын

^^^ This, a thousand times!! They could even go so far as to create their own languages! It would have been awesome to see other countries in Middle Earth! Everyone is complaining about the fact that there are more people in the world than just Europe ... and then head straight to European stories to adapt and cast non-Europeans in the roles, thinking that will do the trick.

@escribendo6138

Жыл бұрын

@@CaptainPieBeard I am really not convonced by this. Sure, you can make up societies segregated from the lands the story of our heroes to draw Characters of Color from, but that's relegates them either to outsiders or forces the story into places many people just don't care about as much when consuming LotR media. I for my part would much prefer a story about for example another dwarf culture aside from the longbeards in possibly faraway lands to many recent tolkien adaptions, but in general this kind of thing is not why you get film rights to a property, because, by it's nature, it is secluded from the things people know and love about the property. Maybe such a thing will become more commonplace once tolkiens works enter public domain... one can only dream Anyways, my point is that I don't think it is conducive to good representation to worry about why someone is the race they are as if being nonwhite is something that demands an explanation. I think the only reason we think so is a kneejerk reaction. Firstly, even if we were to concede that a black noldorin elf or whatever were uncanonical, I couldn't care less. I don't think there are any themes this undercuts, and if it did I would not miss them, and I do not see why I should suspend my disbelief for magical jewels but not for skin color. But most importantly, I don't concede that. I think, maybe because we in our thinking are modeling societies as a number of exeptional people we know explicitly about and the rest, that makes it easy to abstract the rest so far from a real group of people that it sort of inadvertently becomes imagined as homogenous, but I don't see a good reason any fantastical society not explicitly stated to be so has to be strictly ethnically homogenous. So why should there not be to stay at the example be a black noldorin elf? Even if there isn't an explicit example of one in the canon (is there? maybe, my Tolkien nerd credentials aren't good enough to confidently assert that), as long as there isn't stated that there are none, I don't think that is uncanonical (and again, if it were, I wouldn't care if this did not for some reason inherently makes the story worse)

@CaptainPieBeard

Жыл бұрын

@@escribendo6138 Here's an idea. Instead of trying to "fix" a beautifully written work that is almost 100 years old. How about modern creators just make up their own worlds and stories? Make up your own worlds and rules and then you can have as much geography-defying-diversity as you'd like. For a society that is so obsessed with pointing out the moral shortcomings of "old white men", said society sure loves the works of "old white men". If you find Tolkien's views to be antiquated then perhaps a more modern work, that more accurately reflects current trends and cultural make-up, is the type of media you should be consuming.

@escribendo6138

Жыл бұрын

@@eliteteamkiller319 I actually care about the lore quite a bit, but skin color isn't really a big part of Tolkien's lore, largely unspecified and assumed to be white, and for the most part trivial where it comes up. That's why I find it hilarious to se people throwing hissyfits about it when, as you say, big parts about the lore are largely overwritten, as you pointed out yourself, to the point that events playing thousands of years apart are condensed into the shows time span. Do I care about that? Certainly, but in my mind it cannot be the only aspect of the show to consider. Because an adaption has to do more than merely accurately reflect the source material, and this it doesn't even have to do. If we were to look at adaptions only through this lense, they would be inherently obsolete, just a retelling of an existing story that doesn't dare to deviate an inch to create something new, and potentially good. If it (and I really hope it refers to sweeping rearrangements of large parts of the legendarium more than to the pigmentation of certain actors that might or might not vary from how their characters, nay, their people in the general case because we aren't even talking about existing characters here, are described by Tolkien, and if not, why?) bothers you so much, try thinking of it as a work disconnected from LotR with some curious similarities. It helped me enjoy it a bit more...

Ah man... We lost our tall Galadriel for a ship!? And we also lost the long haired Elven men and bearded female Dwarves?! T:

My husband is a lifelong Tolkien nerd. He watches LOTR at least once a month. We watched the first episode of this series, and then he’s never mentioned it again. Enough said.

@Wifibee

4 ай бұрын

@@calciocarte It's shit

@NoPreyRemains

4 ай бұрын

No one, no matter how much of a fan they are, should watch the same film at least once a month. Once a year, maybe once every six months, but not at least once a month. That's madness.

@FifinatorKlon

3 ай бұрын

@@knightjamesii7757 One has nothing to do with the other. Spending 4 - 12 hours once a month every(!) month on watching the exact same movie is hardcore autistic lol.

@nimallanjayabalan

3 ай бұрын

@@NoPreyRemainsThen I guess you never met actual fans of LOTR.

@NrettG

3 ай бұрын

@@NoPreyRemains If you love it the first time, and you loved it the second time, then it's a pretty safe bet that some will keep watching it until they get bored of it. Sounds like some just haven't hit that point yet.

You briefly mentioned how Nori just wanted to know what life was like outside of her Hobbit caravan. But she really should know how far the river goes or where the sparrows go. Her people travel for a living. They are not sedentary, but are constantly moving from one place to another. She isn't unused to travel.

@miffedmax3863

Жыл бұрын

I thought the Harfoot were walking a specific path, though?

@MRdaBakkle

Жыл бұрын

@@miffedmax3863 even if that's true and their path is the same year from year. The point stands that these proto hobbits are more mobile and world wise than the Hobbits of the Shire.

@miffedmax3863

Жыл бұрын

@MRdaBakkle Fair enough.

@viiviviviiv

Жыл бұрын

i feel like she emphasized the "nomadic" elements of the group in the vid, the strangeness of her desire to see the world WHILE being a nomad was clear to me... fwiw i haven't watched the new series at all, and that seemed to be the point of that to me.

@gee159

Жыл бұрын

I think the line “she finds the Nomadic life of her Nomadic people boring so she wants to go… travelling?” makes this point in the video

I hadn't seen anything of the show until now and my brain SHORT-CIRCUITED at the sight of Elf Boy With Short Hair. Like ??? My LOTR brain cells imploded, I swear.

@bewilderbeastie8899

Жыл бұрын

We don't know that all elves had long hair... but every description of elf hair we have is long

@tar-elenionmaranwe1275

Жыл бұрын

@@bewilderbeastie8899 Tolkien described the Noldor as having long hair. "Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, except among the chieftains, and then only after settlement in Aman." NoMe, Hair And the Teleri: "But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill." MR, LQS and Elves generally: ""There blowing free unbraided hair is meshed with beams of Moon and Sun, And twined within those tresses fair a gold and silver sheen is spun, As fleet and white the feet go bare, and lissom limbs in dances run," Lost Road, FNII And the Silvan Elves: "Their gleaming hair was twined with flowers; green and white gems glinted on their collars and their belts; and their faces and their songs were filled with mirth. Loud and clear and fair were those songs, and out stepped Thorin into their midst." The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders "In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes...." WotJ, Quendi and Eldar Of course the Sindar and Silvan Elves are ultimately Telerin in origin. While the Elves all had beautiful hair, and it being long seem to be equated with that beauty: "All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people." PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor"

Also the whole warrior revenge quest Galadriel scenario would've been so much better if she *wasn't* portrayed as the underdog and she was just unapologetically powerful without having to be framed as someone at a disadvantage against a bigger enemy, instead she should've been portrayed as being almost equal to or more powerful than her enemy in a 'will she won't she win' type of scenario where if they were to spar they would end up tied most of the time or win an equal amount of times etc. but my biggest problem with the rings of power is that really no one, not the elves, not the hobbits and not the dwarves look like they live or belong in middle earth in my opinion, they look like fantasy creatures sure but not like they're in Arda.

@TKTS1409

4 ай бұрын

Not trying to say she's not protrayed as unapologetically powerful already but she's framed as being an underdog when she never has been one.

@JRexRegis

3 ай бұрын

Yes! Galadriel is among those elves who can (and will, and did) solo balrogs, duel Sauron and be generally incredibly bad-ass. She should be unapologetically powerful, able to stride into battle and make orcs cringe away by her sheer presence. She should NEVER be approached by some random-ass dudes, requiring *hand to hand combat* to get distance - her presence should be enough to ward them off. Idk why they made her this weird underdog figure who struggles against anything that isn't a balrog or giant shelobian spider monster

"That's not why the fans were mad." Let us not pretend that the race swapping was the only reason the fans were mad. The lore was disrespected on many levels and there were many stupid things about the show. Like how the main character jumped off a boat and downed because she was so stupid she thought she could swim for a few weeks back to land in freezing water. But for some reason was magically not dead and instead met the antagonist floating in the middle of the ocean.

@caseycovello8204

4 ай бұрын

This. The racial elements are what the media focused on the most, since it's such a charged topic and makes for great click bait-y headlines, but it was just a shit story that didn't even follow canon. If you're doing a show with a built in fan base, don' alienate the fan base. Seems an overly difficult task these days :/

@Eagledelta3

3 ай бұрын

@@caseycovello8204 To be fair, part of that problem can be traced back to the Tolkien Estate themselves who wouldn't allow Amazon to use the full Lore needed to tell the story of Rings of Power.... leaving them to fill in the gaps with story NOT from the books b/c anything not the Hobbit or LOTR were off limits.

@LeePearson90

3 ай бұрын

Ya'll weren't on reddit were you... It wasn't the media. Like they say in the video the white supremacists were in full swing

@mastpg

3 ай бұрын

Acting, camera blocking, fight choreography, pacing, logical connections within the plot...the show just kinda sucks. It's done poorly.

@kurtacus3581

3 ай бұрын

She's a magical elf. Legolas didnt wear winter clothing and walked atop the snow when traversing the mountains. Gandalf fell a kilometer through the earth while fighting a balrog. The elf in the books that took Frodo to Rivendell literally fought a balrog and lived to tell the tale. Interesting we're only applying this standard of realism when the woman is center stage

This video has only made me realize we were ROBBED of having Gwendolyn Christie play Galadriel. ROBBED!!!!

@invisible__design657

Жыл бұрын

yes!!

@allisonmillions3863

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@ggt47

Жыл бұрын

She actually probably be an accurate height. 😂She would also been a good Marvel comic book accurate Valkyrie.

@annakuch9108

Жыл бұрын

Oh yes we were. CAN U IMAGINE OMG

@michaelsasylum

Жыл бұрын

Gwedolyn Christie is extremely overrated. GoT is her flash in the pan and she's going nowhere.

Jesus, you just opened my eyes. Gwendoline Christie as Galadriel would have already improved rings of power so much for me.

@celiwhaaat6285

Жыл бұрын

Yes I had the same epiphany 😅

@neuralmute

Жыл бұрын

Me too! She may have seen it as a bit of typecasting (another armour role?!?) but she'd have been magnificent.

@morgenzon69

Жыл бұрын

To be fair, Gwen Christie in any show instantly makes it 100x better

@viiviviviiv

Жыл бұрын

and it would've instantly gotten them the shipping attention they wanted, frankly lol.

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio

Жыл бұрын

I think Elizabeth Debicki would have been a great choice too.

I think for casting racial diversity in open worlds like Tolkien, they could include it in ways that are a little more logical. If it's an isolated tribe that keeps to itself you'd expect homogeneity (whichever ethnicity), whereas cities with ports and trade would be more mixed. You could have communities of elves or dwarfs that have different skin colors live in different geographical areas or have them live together in cities that are more metropolitan. I think racially blind casting ends up creating worlds that look like the population of Californian cities. That is not in itself a bad thing, but it wouldn't explain how that diversity came to be in Middle Earth. You only see diversity if there is migration from places that were previously geographically separated.

@naurahdeatrisyagitany8365

4 ай бұрын

I don't think it's that hard to worldbuild into tho. The three Edain tribes came in separate migrations and after them, the Middle Men. It's very easy to make them be physically distinct groups so it makes sense that folks in Numenor are mixed. Also, the Middle Men probably also intermarry with the remaining Edain in Eriador so even Middle Earth humans can have diverse ancestry. For the elves, they can be Awakened already with features from different ethnicities, but certain features, mainly hair and eye color, became dominant in different groups. Even then, pureblood Noldor can have non-stereotypical features, like Miriel's silver hair and Nerdanel and her family's red hair so there is that. We also know that elven groups intermarry and interbreed in Valinor (probably common for folks in Tirion) which is how we have Galadriel and her sibs having the heritage of all three Valinorian elf clans. There is also the isolation of certain elf groups, like the Avari from all three initial clans and the Sindarin, which can isolate and develop different features and form new admixtures when the Noldor went into exile. As for dwarves, Aule made them. Aule can decide to fashion his creations as unique as the earth they inhabit and mine because he is a craftsman and maybe he likes variety in his craft.

@no3ironman11100

4 ай бұрын

You are very open minded, unlike most people. Great explanation. Many would easier say they want diverse casting for the sake of the actors (we don't want movies for them, we want movies for us lol) or others would say adding diverse casts is bad in and of itself, when that's far from the truth and sometimes being a little more diverse is fine, shoving a black samurai into a movie about japan, but making them 1/3 of people is very weird . One could have ethnic people in appropriate parts/regions of the story is the better way.

@Johnaii_Steck

4 ай бұрын

You're so right, god what would I give to finally see the Dwarves of the Red Mountains.

@eddthehead123

4 ай бұрын

They already had black people in setting. People from Harad, Far Harad, and Umbar. They didn't need to add in a beardless dwarf who lived underground her entire life for their token black people check box.

@MissMCwuffles

4 ай бұрын

I feel that sometimes "diverse" world building, in which casting directors want the cast to reflect the average American or Western population all living in larger cultures or nationalities, unintentionally imply some preexisting colonialism. I always felt like it implied that an older culture had consolidated many distinct ethnicities into one nation, and I've never seen anyone acknowledge that this unifying culture is almost always European-inspired. In contrast, I've found the diverse stories that I do like tend to acknowledge that separate groups do develop some independent ethnic traits and then actually portray the cultural distinctness of each culture. Of course, I am referring to human societies, and deity-created dwarves and elves can more easily break those rules.

“non-binary Eminem” just killed me 🤣 That’s me when I bleach my hair

An important note about the orcs: a MAJOR reason why they're "all evil" is that they are effectively enslaved by Sauron. The orcs caused consternation for Tolkien himself (particularly about how they cannot reach salvation and he kept changing his mind about their origin), but Sauron specifically has the power to bend the will of others to his will AND it is heavily implied that the orcs are tortured and deceived about their condition. Even in the LOTR dialog, they talk of "elvish tricks" and whatnot (maybe even in Hobbit), implying that they are subject to a propaganda that dehumanizes their opponents as well. A tactic that his son would have seen in WW2 (fascism particularly embraces this tactic, just look at Russian propaganda) and maybe even himself in WW1, if not seen throughout history. This does not necessarily excuse Tolkien's problems and of course if you dig deep enough in Tolkien's writing, you can leave with whatever interpretation you want. Also definitely doesn't excuse Amazon's problems, they don't have Tolkien's excuses.

@equinox1223

Жыл бұрын

They aren't enslaved by Sauron, they were originally corrupted men and elves who served Morgoth with literal respect and utmost care...idk why I'm having to describe this weird relationship but your comment is more of a ponderance on your own thought then what actually does occur. As for breeding, no one can say where they come from (but they do appear to grow in wombs in the earth). Morgoth didn't even have to kidnap people, he literally just used the same creation "song" as the LOTR universe creator but corrupted said song - and if I recall right said orcs were kinda just "made" with the same intonation as how men and mer were but their creation was changed due to Morgoth changing up the "song.").

@hozie6795

Жыл бұрын

@@equinox1223 Tolkien went back and forth on the origin of Orcs numerous times, and the notion that they are corrupted elves is highly contested.

@mickwayne3398

Жыл бұрын

@@equinox1223 when the ring is tossed in the volcano it said in the story that the Orcs were no longer under Saurons controllnig will and became confused and easily beaten back by the alliance army

@SuddenReal

Жыл бұрын

Propaganda to dehumanize and ridicule the enemy has been around for a long long time. Remember, Napoleon was a large man. The only reason why people think he was short was because British cartoons depicted him as small since they didn't realise a French foot was larger than a British foot.

@equinox1223

Жыл бұрын

@@mickwayne3398 yeah, because Morgoth had weaved a song creating his own variants on elves and men, he didn't enslave them, they were pretty much a "hive mind" of sorts. Although only Tolkien himself knows the truth, but he never fleshed any of that out enough for anyone to make a true call. Orc culture was a lot more violent and animalistic too with those at the top who looked weak having their authority challenged, which isn't to say they all didn't have their own cultures of sorts, but it was a lot more base.

"Oh.. it's all terribly American" this whole video was worth that perfectly timed line 😂

@roadbone1941

5 ай бұрын

It's LA west coast America. It ain't the south or Pacific NW

@dearleader7623

4 ай бұрын

​​@@roadbone1941This is a bit of a logical fallacy. This is like "no true Scotsman" but applied to Americans. Do we simply want to just lump a longing for something different to just SoCal? Why not all the people living in the South who are sick of the South? Besides, we are a country made up of immigrants who wanted to fuck off from parts of the world that were less favorable. This is a uniquely American experience and, honestly, ot should apply to all Americans because that's unironically the American way.

@thisisobviouslybait

3 ай бұрын

@@dearleader7623 That's not what "no true scotsman" is. America being uniquely made up of immigrants is just as moronic of a take. Every single country in the world is inhabited by groups of people who immigrated there at some point in history. Even if you move the goalposts and say well only counting people who immigrated since the colonies were established the entire western half or the world as well as Australia and New Zealand still fit that bill and make your point invalid.

the dwarfs in tolkien's world are strong warriors and builders, it was one of the reasons he disliked Disney so much, for always representing them as greedy pigs, with children behavior.

@nathandutton2860

5 ай бұрын

It wasn’t really that he hated them for being greedy but more of childish. The dwarves in show white were goofy, silly, had funny names, weren’t taken seriously, and cartoonish. He saw dwarves as a respectful and noble people so seeing them displayed as childish unsettled him because not only did they insult these mythical creatures but they also supported the idea that fairy tales and myths were meant only for children.

@supremophm9910

5 ай бұрын

@@nathandutton2860 100% man

When I read all the criticisms of RoP being ‘woke’ and pandering, (which it kind of was) but when they kept saying “This was what Tolkien and LOTR was!” I was going “which Lord of the Rings were you reading then?” Besides some of the more obvious stories like Eowyn slaying the Witch-King and Arwen standing up for her right to choose what she wants for her life, I’d like to point out a passage from Return of the King in the Houses of Healing where Gandalf, Eomer and Aragorn are talking about Eowyn and how she rode to war out of despair and Eomer has no idea why his sister was so depressed and desperate and Gandalf says to him: “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man … her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.” It was very nice that Eomer’s duty lined up with what he wanted to do and had prestige to go with it but no one ever thought to ask Eowyn what she wanted or considered what she was good at because she was woman. Or in modern term, Gandalf told Eomer to check his privilege.

@internetenjoyer1044

Жыл бұрын

i think this is an example of woke misreadings of tolkien as per this video. Eowyn for example is not about "she kills the witch king coz shes a strong independant woman and doesnt need no man", she is enviorous of men for their unredeemed pagan virtues, she wants the glory and honour of it all. It's an understandable but inherently selfish motivation. A vanity and vexation of spirit, as the book of solomon has it. it's only when she reaches the pinnacle of pagan virtue; she shes her Lord slain and avanges him against the great enemy, she recoils with horror from it. then she marries Faramir, who embodies the Christian perfection of pagan virtue; bravery and martial skill but not for their own sake, but for their proper purpose; to defend the weak and defeat evil, and then to be put aside (note how this is what elves do, and elves are less fallen than men). She gets "married off" to someone who embodies the proper moral understanding of glory and violence. Before she was in love with Aragorn, but not Aragorn the man, instead the idea of aragorn and the embodiment of vainglory. In Aragorn;s own words, she loves a shadow. So killing the witch king isnt the climax for her, as modern work interpretation believe; it merely causes the conflict needed for her to reach the climax of her arc; getting maried off. or rather, a moral rejuvination of her previously fallen values. I note that you seem to be under her delusion (at least from Tolkien;s pov) since you think Gandalf is checking their privalige by saying what he said. in reality, he is saying that for her, service to the weak is a doom. Hes calling Eomer out, becuase to him also it would be a doom. But actually serving the sick is greater than slaying orcs and puffing ones feathers over doing so. A vanity and vexation of spirit.

@toddhennen

Жыл бұрын

I think it’s less about being “woke” and more about being influenced by the movies over the books. Your interpretation is imo definitely closer to Tolkien’s view, but I think he’d also say that healing and serving the weak is a higher calling for all, not just women. Elrond is explicitly one of the great healers of the world, after earlier having carried the banners for Gil-Galad

@GreatOldOne9866

11 ай бұрын

“Tolkien’s Galadriel could probably beat you up.” So can Jackson’s Galadriel.

@englishlady9797

8 ай бұрын

I think that's a misreading of the source material: Eowyn doesn't despair because of the patriarchy. She basically has depression and seeks death in combat to escape the attentions of Wormtongue who was stalking her.

@glendaal67

7 ай бұрын

I don't know about Arwen standing up. It was more like Elrond saying: "You must commit to becoming the king of Gondor and you can have Arwen" And Aragorn agreed.

This is probably the most clear-eyed and wittiest critique of the Rings of Power I've seen yet. And the deftness with which you wove in your understanding of Tolkien's own flaws is commendable as well.

@runjennierun07

Жыл бұрын

​@@rpgadventurer32 beliving in racial superiority is definitely a flaw

@NioFiota

Жыл бұрын

@@rpgadventurer32 holy shit you're annoying in the comments

@gnubbiersh647

Жыл бұрын

@@runjennierun07 you should write your own books with an imagination like that

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio

Жыл бұрын

@@runjennierun07 As the video says, there's no indication that Tolkien believed in racial superiority in the real world, in fact, the complete opposite. He was writing about various races in his fantasy world as analogues for moral values, both light and dark, and the films based on his works interpreted that into literal light and dark. Did you miss something?

@jamesriley007

Жыл бұрын

@@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio not to mention the fact that the books were written during the war when this guy who was into racial superiority was coming to power What was his name? Oh that's right Hitler

I think a beef that goes under the radar is the lack of monsters in RoP. Each of the Hobbit and LOTR movies has at least two or three larger than life monsters that add an extra level of awe to the world. Rings of Power has 4-ish: 1 Balrog cameo, 1 snow troll, 1 lame looking Warg, and a Sea Serpent that we don't really get to see much of, also some pig wolf things. Middle Earth is supposed to get more monster filled the further back in time you go, so the fact that we don't even get a dragon or an Ent just waltzing through the background of a scene is tragic. With the budget they had they could've had a new Smaug sized monster every episode.

@thearnorianruby4681

Жыл бұрын

That's not a warg. That's a deformed wolf.

@bigape8640

Жыл бұрын

@@thearnorianruby4681 Personally I thought it was one of the Hyenas from the Lion King but that felt unfair to the Hyenas

@thearnorianruby4681

Жыл бұрын

@@bigape8640 lol

@hawksboy

Жыл бұрын

Because they were more concerned with making the show look and feel like Los Angeles in 2022 than a fantasy world.

@bigape8640

Жыл бұрын

@@hawksboy I fail to see how adding diversity cost $715 million dollars.

Oops you mentioned how how great it would have been to cast Gwendolyn Christie as Galadriel and now I need it and won’t be able to stop thinking about what a horribly missed opportunity this was.

@ilonakonradsheim3988

4 ай бұрын

Oh yes… all the dreams of the possibilities🥲

@Carrot880

3 ай бұрын

Nah she's a great actress but too much of a tomboy. She lacks the ethereal grace.

"Apparently Peter Jackson's Orcs have restaurants since they know what a menu is" - made me literally spit out my tea as it had never occurred to me before 15:21

@Memoiana

4 ай бұрын

Army mess and canteen have menus..

@laurencefraser

4 ай бұрын

@@Memoiana Well, modern ones do when the logistics train can manage it. In the past it was a lot more common for it to just be 'this is what was made today so this is what you get'.

@richborn6700

4 ай бұрын

They marched from Isengard where Saruman had an entire stocked pantry. Whether he's feeding the troops or not hes definitely structured enough to have a weekly menu for himself at the least

Wait. Nobody was enraged, that Galadriel had a sword. Most people were enraged, that she behaved like an angry, impulsive teenager, while at this point in time, she probably already was one of the oldest persons on middle earth. But yeah, there are no gender roles in elven societey and they tend to be taller than humans. Rings of Power seems to have forgotten that.

@tar-elenionmaranwe1275

Жыл бұрын

There are 'gender roles' in Elven societies. Men tend to do the hunting, women the farming. Men bear arms, women abstain from war and are more likely to be the healers. Men tend to prepare food, except for bread which is customarily done by women, invention and change is mostly men, while women bring forth children. Women tended to do the spinning, weaving and playing of music, men the smithing and composing. (With some differences in various elven races). As Tolkien puts it: "There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a _ner_ can think or do, or others with which only a _nis_ is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of _neri_ and _nissi_ , and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar)." MR. Laws and Customs of the Eldar "ner, pl. neri (Elvish) man" "nis, pl. nissi (Elvish) woman" Edit: When using 'men' and 'women' above, I am referring to the 'sex' of the people in question, i.e. male and female, it is not a reference to the race of Men.

@taelorpickel2830

Жыл бұрын

@@tar-elenionmaranwe1275 I don't know why you are saying "men" and "women" as if elves are the same as humans.

@tar-elenionmaranwe1275

Жыл бұрын

​@@taelorpickel2830 It seems to have been clear to you that I was using the terms in reference to the difference in characteristic 'gender' activity among the men and women of the Eldar; that is, the sex of the people in question, as opposed to the race (i.e. Elves/Men). Much as Tolkien would do on occasion, e.g. in Laws and Customs of the Eldar: "...the making of bread is done mostly by women [...] cooking and preparing of other food is generally a task and pleasure of men", where these differences are drawn from. Or see Der, Ni, Nis and related in Etymologies (HoMe V). "From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits." MR, LQS "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring..." Letter 152 "Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world." Letter 153 In the event I will append a note to make sure it is clear.

@ecthelionofthefountain8267

Жыл бұрын

I kind of see what you're saying but the Neri and Nissi did have different 'gender roles' but were considered equal to each other. Perhaps that's what you mean.

@Laurelin70

Жыл бұрын

@@tar-elenionmaranwe1275 The quote you did ends with " But all these things, and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi." though. So, even if there are some "natural tendencies" and "general abilities", they are not strict rules and any Elf could do whatever he/she wanted and often shifted his/her interests from one thing to another, since they had so long lives.

17:35 I think the game Lord of the RIngs Online had a good take on this. During your stay in Mordor after Sauron had died, you capture and take an easterling captain to Minas Tirith for questioning, and along the way, he reveals that Sauron came for the eastern peoples first, that he let an artificial plague kill a large percentage of the population so that desperate people would turn to him.

"but when you center your show around reveals, you sacrifice the story" 13:00 Yep, hit the nail on the head with that one...

The problem of the amazon show is that it was bad : dialogues, no tension, it didn't make me feel anything... remove the fact that it's linked to the LOTR, and just take it as a fantasy show in itself, and it was boring... I mean, you could remove the whole harfoot storyline, and it wouldn't affect anything in the show !

The fear of spoilers seems particularly misplaced given the success of the lord of the rings... when everyone, even those who had never read the books, at least broadly knew the ending....

@Helperbot-2000

Жыл бұрын

theres always going to be many who havent seen or played something

@viiviviviiv

Жыл бұрын

there have been literal studies that show audiences who know the ending of the media they're watching will typically enjoy it more. the hysteria of getting spoiled is extremely overblown. And, if your content can't stand on its own without a shocking twist, then it was not good content. it's like everyone freaking out about trying to preserve a jumpscare in a scary movie. Just because you got 1 second of a reaction doesn't mean it was actually scary.

@squaeman_2644

6 ай бұрын

​@@viiviviviivMaybe because they know what theyre looking for theres more anticipation, if its a suprise of course you wouldnt even know about it beforehand. Not spoiling something is also just not being a dick

You can't just feed us with a juicy title like that and then make us wait

@LL-tr5et

Жыл бұрын

naw exactly

@rachelforero7234

Жыл бұрын

Literally so sad I have to wait … 92 miniyes

Your description of Galadriel reminds me of the elf queen from The Smith of Wooton Major. He said she was very tall, taller than the long spears her guards held. She wore no crown, but a pillar of white light came from the top of her head. When she approached the smith, he didn't bow because he was so overwhelmed and dismayed by her greatness that any such motion seemed silly.

I feel like you actually summed up my issues with RoP with just "it's all so American"

@photophob

3 ай бұрын

For the most parts it feels like an american high school play to me. Like the "teenage years of all your beloved LotR characters" 🤣

Thank you for this. I hate that the discourse around this show became "wokeness" as I personally felt the show was often pretty regressive, outside of being just poorly written in it's own right. The way they treat women in particular was infuriating, speaking as a woman and also a fan of Tolkien's books. For example, let's talk framing. You say Morfydd is miscast, and I think that's ultimately true, but the production does nothing to help her look the part. She is repeatedly framed (visually and through dialogue) as being childish compared to male characters throughout the show. Most obviously, her most-worn costume is a shapeless shift, just like the one she wears as a *literal child* during the prologue. But beyond this, the camera also consistently *focuses* on how petite she is in comparison to Halbrand or Elendil, each being shown as a head taller than her even if the scene didn't need to be framed that way. And as you noted, Elendil even makes a comment about how brash and young she is, despite the vast gulf in their age and experience. The show kept trying to tell us that Galadriel is powerful and ancient, but then did everything it possibly could to undercut that. Hell, even her iconic line from Fellowship of the Ring ("stronger than the foundation of the earth") is revealed in Rings of Power to not be her own creation: it was all prompted by a man. The writers also missed a huge opportunity to flesh out more of Tolkien's lesser known female characters. Celebrian, the daughter of our hero and main protagonist is...strangely absent. Miriel's grandmother, Inzilbeth, a former Queen and secret member of the Faithful is... strangely absent. Elendil's wife is simply... killed off. And of course, they didn't bother referencing Tolkien's "The Mariner's Wife" even in passing, despite it having a huge cast of women to choose from: a story that along with establishing female inheritance in Numenor, also features a monologue that goes HARD against gender roles. Seems like that could work in really nicely with Miriel trying to hold power over a fractured kingdom. Meanwhile, the new female characters the writers added are also rather... milquetoast. I had high hopes for Disa when her first images were released, I was hoping that we'd get to see new facets of Dwarven culture from her perspective, since in the books, it's 100% male POVs. But in the show, she's... mainly a love interest and a mother. Hmm ok. Bronwyn starts off a little more promising with some leadership potential and a unique skillset as a healer, but then is reduced to... mainly a love interest and a mother (with no less than three fake-out deaths to scare her loved ones during the finale). Earien was basically a non character... I guess Nori and Poppy are a little more interesting, but that seems more like it was a happy accident: because they're basically a female reskin of Frodo/Sam, even down to how they look. Is this really the best they could do? I don't think the producers necessarily did any of this *maliciously*. It's just the same old unfortunate "made-by-committee" story that we've seen a thousand times already. But man if that isn't wildly disappointing for such a rich work. I can't get over how it could've been so much better.

@spacehootle309

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. But they didn't have the rights to for example "The Mariner's Wife" or ANYTHING of the Silmarillion. Which includes Celebrian etc. I'm honestly already amazed what they get away with with the rights they have. But why the heck they frame Galadriel to be so tiny, when literally one of her main physical traits is being as tall as any of the boys, is genuinely beyond me.... WHY?

@Theeight8b

Жыл бұрын

​ @Spacehootle * They wanted to tell their story and from their perspective. And Galadriel in Rings of Power - is a perfect example of Mary Sue, so they made that it’s were easier to associate yourself with her.

@BayWa4eva

Жыл бұрын

you don't understand why people criticize it as woke and then go on and elaborate all the wokeness in it. wokeness is not a good thing, it's an excuse, it's blaming your faults on others. a typical woke film will depict all women as more or less stereotypical men, mostly of the unlikable kind. that's because the woke people are inherently sexist and can't think of a strong women but feel the need to mask it by creating a male lead and casting it female. same for skin colours. these people are the problem, but their life purpose is blaming others. if you complain they can call you sexist, racist, whatnot. try to ask hollywood for a strong woman, good luck. original galadriel could've been one. that the biggest complaint: ROP changed the source to be more sexist while claiming the opposite. also skin colour is an effect of evolution, after long enough time the skin will be a local optimum for the respective environment. now that is mostly about sunlight exposure for humans but it could be also camouflage, warning colours or attractivity for other species. if middle earth has only one respective environment, skin diversity is unrealistic (unless the dominating factor is attractivity which will always create diversity)

@kreestuh4367

Жыл бұрын

@@spacehootle309 I sympathize that the rights situation was precarious, but I don't think it tells the whole story. They make quite a few allusions to the wider legendarium throughout the show, especially with some of the background details. For example, they spent time making a replica of Dramborleg-- Tuor's axe. That's a deep cut! Despite this, they choose to cut a lot of the things they DID have the rights to. Celebrian is mentioned in the narrative in Fellowship of the Ring during the Council of Elrond and in Lorien; she's also included throughout the Appendices, both in the timeline portion and in the story of Aragorn and Arwen. I'm not sure what the rationale was behind leaving her out of the narrative entirely? It would've been lovely to see Prime!Galadriel have a relationship with another woman that wasn't wildly antagonistic, at least.

@alanbarnett718

Жыл бұрын

"Woke" is basically tokenism reworked for the 21st century, with the added twist that it *has* to be at least slightly insincere for the other woketies to accept it. So, lots and lots of "colourblind" casting, but only in the minor roles. A kick-ass Strong Feminist Role Model, but undercut anything that truly makes her either strong or feminist. Tolkien's racist and classist assumptions suit them down to the ground.

I hate that the men have short hair… undercuts… and FADES 😵‍💫

@jordanbrown3816

7 ай бұрын

*Elf men*

I appreciate the take that Eowyn resembles an underdog but I don't think that was Tolkiens vision for her. She wasn't denied the ability to fight because she was a woman, it was because she had a duty to lead should Theoden and Eomir die in battle. I don't think Theoden would have really cared if any other nameless woman hopped on a horse really. It seemed more of a sense of duty. I see Eowyn as more of a broken/frustrated character. angry with being purposeless and helpless as people she losves go off and die and not be able to control it. Angry and desperate enough to disobey her king and fight when she was instructed to lead. but in the end she finds more value in healing than killing so she becomes a healer and is more fulfilled.

I often get the sense that these large corporate shows just don't really know how to write characters. They come across as not understanding how to write "The good guys". In this and the disney stuff I kept finding myself routing for the "bad guys" who are always given more obstacles to overcome and have much more endearing interactions. The heroes are always narcisstic, rarely care about anyone else, or only do so in self-serving fashion and no matter how many stupid decisions they make it just works out perfectly for them

@PhoenicopterusR

Жыл бұрын

Villains are the new underdog

@johnniejupiter

Жыл бұрын

You should read my novels then, because I've been compared (stylistically) to Tolkien and LoTR by reviewers (and I adhere to canon with bearded Dwarven females) and I agree about how heroes are portrayed. Same reason the corporate world can't emulate the spirit of small business... they just don't relate to the spirit of it. Book one in the series is being re-released globally this week, I think. The Insignificance Paradigm.

@amb_.

Жыл бұрын

Villians can’t write heros

@lkeke35

5 ай бұрын

The corporations do not know how to write any characters that are not straight white men. They botch the writing every time. There are other companies that actually hire PoC showrunners and writers and they're much better at it, (I'm citing Westworld with anAsian woman writer, Lovecraft Country, with Black women writers, Last of Us, and Interview with the Vampire, shows which had gay, Black women, and men as writers and showrunners). Shows directed, run, and written by white men are and can be very enjoyable, (I'm a huge geek!) but surface diversity is all they seem to be any good at. "Plastic representation" is one of the problems we run into when we're asking people who don't share or even understand the kinds of marginalities they're writing about to write those kinds of characters. They don't have the depth and nuance to write characters who don't look like them. I mean, look at how badly they write white women, and they are presumably the one group of people they're most likely to interact with and are supposed to know well! They're not going to be much better at writing Asian, Black, and/or gay or trans characters, the kind of people they have not taken the steps to understand in the "real" world.

@tadhghanrahan7976

5 ай бұрын

@@lkeke35 I understand what you're saying. I just don't think they're particularly good at writing straight white men either. I suppose I'm making the point that there is a fundamental writing/editing problem to how these corporate shows are produced that exists alongside the social issues you're highlighting.

my family hated the norrie storyline so much that we have started referring to any boring/uninteresting part of movies/tv shows as "the norrie of the show"

@seapeajones

Жыл бұрын

That's fantastic

16:25 Gorbag and Shagrat don't want to go live a quiet life, they want to pillage at will without bosses getting in their way. And 16:44 Aragorn never called for the extermination of orcs; after his coronation he makes peace with them and gives them the land around Lake Nurnen.

@brucetucker4847

4 ай бұрын

I don't think the second is true, he gave the lands around Lake Nurnen to the agricultural workers who had worked them as Sauron's slaves, and they were Men." IIRC orcs mostly died but a few survived in places of hiding or became scattered robbers and brigands. Orcs in LotR are portrayed as thinking beings but irredeemably evil, which bothered Tolkien later when he considered how any Children of Illuvatar could be made beyond redemption by Morgoth or Sauron, or how anyone other than the Children of Illuvatar could be sentient beings (Dwarves and Ents were made sentient by Illuvatar even though they were originally made by Aulë and Yavanna), but he was stuck with what was published in LotR.

Very enjoyable and intelligent analysis. Thank you for pointing out that "feminist icon" galadriel is surrounded by shrouded female servants. It has been bugging me no-end! Well done*****

YES FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT ABOUT SHORT HAIRED ELVES AND NO BEARD DWARF LADY!! There was an opportunity to have bearded women and it being perfectly canon! And don't even get me started on the elves. The elves in Lord of the Rings shaped my whole sexuality but fine... let's normalize gender expression of elves and dwarves 🙄 And yeah actually if Galadriel was a tall majestic lady (like a Gwendoline Christie yes!) I would have liked her tension with Sauron a bit perhaps. Why not have tension between a strong tall woman and a smol guy?

@Oxaphosphetane

Жыл бұрын

Give us the bearded ladies amazon you cowards

@internetenjoyer1044

Жыл бұрын

Tolkien didnt write all this deep lore just for you to get off over it lol

This is exactly the kind of criticism about Rings of Power that we need.

@30-raflymochamadrivaldo14

Жыл бұрын

@@PhattyBolger Ar you being sarcastic right now or not? I couldn't tell...

@perchy22

Жыл бұрын

@@30-raflymochamadrivaldo14 Given the username and the video's frequent evil eying of people with more wealth hording than Smaug, among other things, I suspect not sarcastic. (yes, Bezos literally has horded more wealth than an evil incarnate species living in a mountain full of gold; it's not even a close comparison)

@adamrbrewer1660

Жыл бұрын

But like it's kinda... Wrong? I feel the analysis of the role numenorians play in Tolkien's world is unfair and the discussion on race to be a misrepresentation as well. Like Tolkien's main love story was a mixed race story. One of his B plots was about 2 guys from different races overcoming their prejudices and becoming as close of friends as has ever been seen despite the racism in their cultures. Like the story literally has anti racist themes but people keep throwing racism allegations at his works and it just feels overall gross to do

@squaeman_2644

6 ай бұрын

​@@adamrbrewer1660Welcome to 2023

@theMad_Artist

3 ай бұрын

@@adamrbrewer1660 there are (unintentionally) problematic real-world racial implications in the characterization of Middle-earth's peoples despite the heart of the story being very much anti-racist. She clearly states this in the video!

Omg mentioning the potential of a Gwendoline Christie as Galadriel just made me wail, like it would've been so perfect. Imagine her with long her

I can't stop laughing at referring to ring wraiths as 'goths, really'...🤣🤣🤣🤣

I couldn't even finish episode one of the show because the intro tells us that Galadriel traveled with her group of volunteers for hundreads of years and when we see her with the group everyone just fucking hates her guts. It gave me the vibe of "a new boss who ousted an old beloved boss" except SHE'S THE OLD BOSS. And I felt so tired because it echoed how powerful women are viewed as stone cold bitches undeserving of respect (unlike men who show same qualities), but "we can't say that they're bitches or we're gonna be called sexists cuz everyone is crazy woke so we're just gonna treat them like shit".

@summit505

Жыл бұрын

Soon as the reviewer made talking points of racism, misogyny and the rest of the woke talking points I knew exactly where the vid was going.

@pmpowalisz

Жыл бұрын

Galadriel’s troops didn’t hate her guts, they just had enough of her risking their lives on a personal mission that went against the kings orders. A male commander would have had a partial mutiny on his hands as well. Also learn the true meaning of “woke” why don’t you.

@bradleyhiggs3824

Жыл бұрын

realness

@wewuzkangz2505

Жыл бұрын

@@pmpowalisz So they hated her guts, nice try leftie.

@pmpowalisz

Жыл бұрын

@@wewuzkangz2505 if they hated her guts, they probably would have killed her, and made up a story when they got back. No, they simply had enough of following her on her personal mission. They likely still admired and respected her though, and Galadriel respected her troops enough to submit to their demand that she abort her personal mission.

As a Jew, I never knew about the Tolkien/Jews/Dwarves thing, but you know what? Problematic as any real-world-groups-as-fantasy-races coding can be... Compared to the greedy little hook-nosed wizard-bank-running goblins certain OTHER British fantasy authors (and TERFs) use in their real-world coding, *I will take the Artefact-loving Axe-wielding Dwarves of the 1930s/40s role every time!* :p

@wolftrem4206

Жыл бұрын

I think one issue is though, that people to often only look at LotR and The Hobbit, disregarding the Silmarillion as the underlying and most important background/mythology for Tolkiens work. Which gives all of these points a more nuanced answer and argument. So that, it is not only the history of the Jewish people that Tolkien draws from, but also the Nibelungenlied and norse mythology. In which dwarfs are very present and have - as far as I am aware - not been linked to being a 1-to-1 imagining of a Jewish person in the story. Saying that the dwarves, given that they were driven from their ancestral homeland to live in exile, resemble Jewish history is not racist. It is simply sth one got inspired by and has no negative or prejudiced point to it. Neither is saying that dwarves speak a semitic language, because Hebrew is not at all the only semitic language. And given that the dwarves dwindle and die out Khuzdul might much better be represented by, lets say, Sumeric. And at last it seems people always focus on the money/gem crafting aspect, but the dwarves are also stone masons. Which in racial stereotypes is not linked to Jewish people. It is its own creation i spired by real world things, but not a situation where someone took a list of stereotypes of a certain people and said "a perfect. In my story I call these people dwarves and no one will notice what i did".

@berilsevvalbekret772

Жыл бұрын

​@@wolftrem4206 are you actually trying to explain a JEW what feels racist towards him or not 😂

@wolftrem4206

Жыл бұрын

@@berilsevvalbekret772 no? I was simply adding information and a view point to, a concept that appeared new OP and which, imho was not very well adressed in the video itself. Because while i agree with parts of the video, it is also simplifying this particular topic (at least in my opinion). Could you clarify where you had gotten your statement from? Any specific words I used?

@jahrfuhlnehm

Жыл бұрын

​@@berilsevvalbekret772 You should quit your diet of lead paint chips, for the sake of everyone you speak to.

@johnclikeman5041

Жыл бұрын

@@wolftrem4206 I don't think the fact that Dwarves and Jews are not an exact 1-1 parallel complicates this critique much at all. Tolkein was quite clear that nothing in Middle-Earth was intended to be a 1-1 match with anything in the real world. But you heard in this video that Dwarves being made to resemble Jewish people in some ways was an explicit, intentional choice by Tolkein. Saying that the Semitic language that Dwarves speak is probably more like Sumerian instead of Hebrew is, IMO, not intellectually honest when the parallel is laid out right there in the author's words. Which means that it is more than fair to critique the ways in which that influence draws from negative stereotypes as opposed to neutral or positive ideas. To pick on the other example, the idea of Goblins has existed for centuries, and are not inherently tied to Jewish people. JK Rowling clearly drew on those sources when creating the Goblins in her books. But saying "Griphook isn't a 1-1 imagining of a Jewish person because he's also based on some other ideas" isn't a defense against the charge that part of his characterization clearly is based on a real-world stereotype, and that stereotype is "hook-nosed, greedy banker."

I always did wonder where that orc had ever heard of a menu. Saruman's orcs brag about being well-fed, maybe they have a cafeteria in Isengard (that serves man-flesh). Orc and half-orc skin is usually described as sallow in the books, which means jaundiced and unhealthy, not dark.

Now I’m bummed about something I never knew I missed. Gwendoline Christie would have been an awesome Galadriel.

So, I'm writing my PhD on fan reception of Tolkien's works and just want to say: THANK YOU. You did such an amazing job of summing up my critiques of The Rings of Power: its failure to grapple with the real problem of race and racism in Middle-earth, its weird sexism and gender essentialism, its nostalgia-baiting, its clear generation by committee to make money for Amazon. The discourse around the show became totally poisoned as vocally sexist and racist fans wailed about "disrespecting Tolkien" - I had fellow Tolkien scholars get death threats from bigoted whiners for the "crime" of being women of color in the field of Tolkien Studies. I really, really appreciate the way you balance an honest appraisal of JRRT's strengths and weaknesses with obvious love for the work and a clear-eyed critique of the show and where it *actually* misses the mark. Great stuff.

@nint357

Жыл бұрын

Me, following you on twitter, watching this video and thinking "oh hey, this reminds me of that Tom guy's posts", scrolling down to the comments and seeing yours... Idk, it was cool and unexpected

@ocirontariocryptidinvestig8010

Жыл бұрын

the thing that made the least sense in ROP was how the Numenoreans represented as a multi racial society. when in the books the whole point of them was to be a racist tyrannical civilization that oppressed anyone that was not them. they even enslaved the white people in the north of middle earth who they were distantly related to.

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio

Жыл бұрын

Hey Tom! Yeah, it's incredibly ironic how one side thinks RoP is "woke as hell" and the other side thinks anyone who doesn't like it is disliking it because it's "woke as hell." Neither is correct. As this video clearly shows, RoP has serious flaws running through it, most of which are just amateurish writing issues driven by their failure to split the difference. The whole series was tepid and couldn't have possibly fully satisfied anyone.

@RealTomEmanuel

Жыл бұрын

@@emeraldlking Not yet, still in the first year of the PhD. There's actually not a huge amount of work out there on Tolkien fan reception! I can highly recommend Megan Abrahamson's "J.R.R. Tolkien, Fanfiction, and ‘The Freedom of the Reader'" (2013) though.

@jamesevans6332

Жыл бұрын

If you have room for it in your PhD, you should go look at the Magic: the Gathering fandom right now. Wizards of the Coast is releasing an LOTR crossover set for the game in June which there is equal parts excitement and ambivalence for, but there's been a ton of weirdos getting really mad because they found out Aragorn is going to be depicted as a black man in it and they're using "it's not book accurate, Aragorn was described as pale in this one sentence" to justify their racism

Thank you for basically immediately saying “and no this show isn’t bad because of diversity” and instead giving a really interesting video essay!

@choronos

Жыл бұрын

@@ZMACxx Yeah you're full of it. I've been in countless arguments in comment sections and seen countless videos posted on dozens of right wing channels wherein people are decrying how "rAcE sWaPpInG iS bAd." The main criticism I've seen online of this show is based on how some of the cast aren't white, and that is an egregious affront apparently because elves and dwarves are "supposed" to be white. The "race swapping" complaint is SO mainstream that Elon Musk tweeted about it. Give me a break. Kinda sounds like you're butthurt and bitter because someone called you out for being racist when you complained about brown elves in some comment section somewhere.

@laisphinto6372

Жыл бұрын

its a woke agenda when you steamroll established lore to artificially have diversity. also the vast majority of these changes are unnecassery lazy and insult said diverse groups that they try to pander too that is what we mean with woke agenda, lazy writing with a lot of modern political moral larp to hide the fact they are incredibly lazy, cheap and egoistical narcists

@harrybudgeiv349

Жыл бұрын

​@Eleiya Umei except it is part of the problem. All of the issues with the writing come from an attempt to tick off boxes that show how progressive their work is.

@hadrian318

8 ай бұрын

Ethnography is a thing.

@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938

7 ай бұрын

​@@harrybudgeiv349 How does a dwarf been black instanly make them a bad character ?

I think it's also worth mentioning that the showrunners are active, practicing, outspoken Mormons who have made it very clear in a lot of interviews that their faith has influence on their works. I'm an ex mormon myself and I'm not going to come here to talk poorly of the faith, but to me, I can see lots of things that I think are very influenced here by LDS culture. The hair is probably the most obvious one; even in current times, LDS men are basically required to have short hair and while no one is going to pull women aside for it, there's a cultural expectation that women will have long hair. Women, even when girlbossing, tend to still fit or be pushed into feminine roles and have feminine traits. We can be as girlbossy as we want as long as we keep pretty and feminine while we do it and still come home to fill our roles at the end of the day. There is a huge cultural issue in Mormonism (although its not unique to Mormons!) where a woman's purpose is, subtextually, for love. It's not as in your face as saying 'women are for making children,' which no one wants to say out loud, even if they believe it, because they don't want to be offensive or upsetf anyone in 2023 -- but it's still permissable to teach men that women are God's crowning glory and should be revered as such and the context of that discussion is almost always that it's spoken during teaching about marriage or finding a spouse. Women are divine in that they were crafted for men to love and adore, to be the object of affection, so we get this weird Galadriel/Sauron ship. I don't think I need to go too into the LDS church and their issues with race because I feel like that's super obvious, all I'll say is that issues of race and diversity are often approached with sheltered naievity, even if intentions are well placed, and I do not think that will change any time soon. Also like, anyone familiar with Mormon cinema will be able to tell you that even with the gross amount of money and high production value to it, the show RADIATES Mormon-cinema energy. The dialogue, the plot beats, the new characters and how they behave, the cinematography, the tone - if you know, you know. Anyway, I wrote an essay that no one asked for and no one will read but this really kind of got in my head while watching. Mormons have a very special and unique relationship with Tolkien (the same way a lot of Catholics do with Narnia stuff) and on one hand, I'm shocked that two mormons got it so wrong because Mormons are unofficially the biggest tolkien nerds as far as religious denominations go, but when I see what went wrong, I'm absolutey NOT surprised. I 100% agree with this video and your points, and honestly I think looking at it through the Mormon lense just kind of double-confirmed what you've been saying for me.

@HikariMichi42

4 ай бұрын

Very interesting to read as a non-Mormon, thank you for sharing your perspective! I don't know much about Mormonism, so this never would have occurred to me. I should perhaps note that C. S. Lewis was Anglican, not Catholic (this supposedly caused some tension between him and Tolkien, who was Catholic). Unless you meant that Catholics have a special relationship with Narnia because they recognize the differences between Lewis' faith and their own? (If you're curious, I'm Lutheran myself.)

so sauron just...(Boromir meme) walks to mordor ? I know it's been done a hundred times, but man does it still makes me laugh !!

I think there's a difference between creating a more diverse world, and color-blind casting. If your story takes place in a bustling international city, those are the same thing. But to have a small, insular community that's not seen the outside world in generations, but is still somehow completely multicultural and racially diverse, takes away from the sense of place that you're trying to create. In a work like LOTR, where you see many communities, each with their own distinct culture, language, lifestyle, and infrastructure, it makes sense to honor Tolkien's attention to detail. If a group lives in isolation, it should be relatively homogenous, whichever race you pick/create.

@SonofSethoitae

Жыл бұрын

​@@dalriada7554 At least in Wheel of Time, you have the excuse of the Breaking of the World.

@SonofSethoitae

Жыл бұрын

@@dalriada7554 I'm not saying it's a perfect explanation, I'm just saying that there's more of a mechanism for a lot of very diverse looking people to be scattered around the world.

@SuddenReal

Жыл бұрын

I keep saying it, if you want to create a diverse world, you need non-diverse area's. Europe is a diverse continent, since it consists of non-diverse countries. If you make every town diverse, it becomes just like every other town, which makes it non-diverse. You can't diverge if diversion is the standard.

@Angrenost02

Жыл бұрын

​@@SuddenReal To paraphrase a certain villain: when everything is diverse, nothing is.

@Icetea-2000

Жыл бұрын

Thank you, that’s exactly what makes sense, you can’t just mix races for the sake of it, and Americans tend to not get this because their whole country is made up of people immigrating to it from all parts of the world. The problem is that american writers tend to apply their own society on these fictional worlds, which is fine with their own works, but is completely rewriting the world of someone else, like Tolkien. No, Middle-Earth is not California ffs. There doesn’t just "happen" to be a black elf, such obvious changes cannot be taken for granted by the characters in the universe and never acknowledged. He’s of a completely different human race and they just try to sell this as if it’s just normal. Where are the several different continents that elves expanded on over hundredthousands of years, growing into distinct races? Oh there weren’t? Because that’s how it was with us humans. But the elves didn’t undergo that same evolution. There is no elvish Africa and Europe and Asia, Elves were never that far apart and out of reach for eons that they could’ve possibly grown so differently, it’s just not possible. They could’ve at least given SOME explanation, like some elves that lived in Harad or something, which still wouldn’t make sense as they couldn’t possibly have lived there for the hundreds of millenia it would take to grow into a different race completely undisturbed by other elves and then just reestablishing contact eons later. But to not even give any explanation and just leave it be as if it’s taken for granted by everyone, that is truly nonsensical.

15:35 petition for a spinoff show "Azog's Diner". The struggles of a young orcish restaurant owner trying to make a living between stealing, violent customers and sudden outbursts of lava and pyroclastic ashes.

@andrewvalentine797

Жыл бұрын

Check out Legends and Lattes by Travis Baldree. Not a restaurant, but a coffee shop.

@melrakan

Жыл бұрын

And violent dwarven tourists who never tip and always leave drunk. Puts a whole another perspective on why the Orcs hate Dwarves...

@JosephSchneider26

Жыл бұрын

@@melrakan You mean they arrive drunk and leave totally shitfaced 😁

Aragorn is in no way a "nepo baby"

@USERZ123XD

4 ай бұрын

i mean, the dude was given a kingdom for free lol. You can say he did a lot of fighting etc, but TBH, Frodo, and sam both did a lot more and actually did the most important job of destroying the ring to save middle earth, yet their reward is just to go back to their regular home, while Aragon gets to rule over Gondor cuz his ancestor. Aragon should certainly be rewarded for his deeds, but not a whole kingdom under his rule.

@MagicBrianTricks

4 ай бұрын

@@USERZ123XD Aragorn has no claim to be King of Gondor. He is descended from Isildur, the King of Arnor. The kings of Gondor were descended from Anárion. Anárion and Isildur were brothers but the two kingdoms were separate. Nobody in Gondor would really even know who Aragorn was descended from let alone recognise he had a claim to the throne. He was never the "rightful" King of Gondor. Faramir proposed that Aragorn be made king because of his actions during the War of the Ring. However, he does recognise his kingly blood and his descent from the Númenóreans.

@USERZ123XD

4 ай бұрын

@@MagicBrianTricks bro did u even watch the movie? During the meeting for the fellowship, legolas said to Farimer aragon is the "rightful king", and again when saruon said "gandof think he found isldur's heir". They set him up to be a nepo baby.

@MagicBrianTricks

4 ай бұрын

@@USERZ123XD I'm talking about the actual books, not Jackson's films.

Good video! I have one tidbit o lore that might help on the question of the origins of orcs. Im pretty sure the orcs we see being birthed from the mud in the Peter Jackson films are actually Uruk-Hai, human-orc hybrids created by Saruman to have "the best of each race" (namely not being as averse to sunlight as normal orcs). So it makes sense they're popping out of what is probably the Middle-Earth equivalent of a genetic modification chamber. (Jackson never really made a good distinction between orcs and uruk, but im pretty sure the only actual orcs we see in his trilogy are the scrawnier ones in the Mines of Moria)

@laurencefraser

4 ай бұрын

It's worth noting that 'Uruk' is a specific word with a specific meaning (being those orcs who are particularly large, powerful, and well suited to battle, or something to that effect). Uruk-hai are an entire race of orc/human (or possibly not humans, there's something weird about the line that tells us this, though I can't remember if it was the same in both movie and book) hybrids, who would universally qualify as Uruks... if they were regular orcs. Sauron's army at the seige of Minas Tirith (forgive any spelling errors, btw, I"m going from memory) would have been a mix of regular orcs and uruks, but contained no Uruk-hai (those being an a creaton of Saruman and wiped out by the ents). Meanwhile, the orcs in Moria, if I recall correctly, are the ones that Tolkein sometimes called Goblins (though the difference is more to do with where they live, and consequently who's talking about them (and the native language of the speaker), than the nature of the creatures in question, to my recollection.)

The dwarves are another conundrum, that translated differently to the screen than in the books. I like both versions though to be honest. Tolkien's dwarves (at least the later ones) were based on Germanic lore, and were grim, sober, and noble, having a history of battles that cost their people greatly. Their basis on Jewish allegory is an interesting tidbit, and I'm not sure how that factors in. Hopefully it was a result of Tolkien's empathy for their plight after the war. Legolas was the much more light-hearted character, singing and laughing whereas Gimili was deep and brooding. Jackson for some reason decided to base the Dwarves on more Scottish and Irish lore, where they were seen as tricksters. So, the Jackson dwarves led the scenes of comic relief. Both have a special place in my heart though! Great video. Thank you for your insight.

@tar-elenionmaranwe1275

Жыл бұрын

Tolkien says of his Dwarves: "These dwarves are not quite the dwarfs of better known lore. They have been given Scandinavian names, it is true; but that is an editorial concession." Letter 25 "Even the dwarfs are not really Germanic 'dwarfs' (Zwerge, dweorgas, dvergar), and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature." Letter 156 "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue....." Letter 176

@pietervanderveld3096

5 ай бұрын

Like tar-elenionmaranwe mentioned, Tolkien thought dwarves like Jews because both people are "at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue....." and NOT because "Dwarves are greedy, therefore they resemble Jews". If you read Tolkiens answer to a German publisher (pre world war II) who needed a declaration of Tolkien being an "Aryan" before publishing his books, you will understand that Tolkien admired the Jewish people.: The answer was : "Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. "

@RaptorJesus

4 ай бұрын

@@pietervanderveld3096 What I find fascinating about the "Dwarves are greedy" thing is that... *that's also a racist stereotype in Middle Earth.* The common-people in-universe think it's true, but it's *not.* Dwarves *aren't* greedy, not as a whole. There's a few famous Dwarves, sure, who were consumed by their greed(usually with a 'push' from the likes of Sauron), but Dwarves as a people? They aren't greedy, they're just secretive and private, but *incredibly* generous to anyone they "let in", whether as friend or guest. And you see that in their interactions, in the Silmarilion, the Hobbit and LotR.

@Dorsidwarf

4 ай бұрын

@@RaptorJesus Theres an element of retcon - the dwarves of the Hobbit are ferociously greedy and small-minded over treasure, but then in Lord of the Rings, Gimli is almost the antidote to that.

@jellyfishjones4741

4 ай бұрын

@@Dorsidwarf And there's a bit more to their tendencies to materialism than conventional greed. Greed wants more, they largely want what they see as theirs already. The tie to gold and such is because as creations of Aule they have an inherent connection to the materials of Middle Earth. They become focused on things, but much of it is because they or a relative probably *made* those things. It's not just about more money.

I think the world of Tolkien is so large it leaves so much room for creativity. We don't know a lot about the Haradrim, which might be a good thing considering the time in which Lord of the Rings was created, but I think there is a real opportunity to create an incredible and complex story around their people and the struggles they had with Sauron. Some would be evil, some would have been tricked and believed they were doing the right thing, and others would have fought back and spoken against Sauron. It's an opportunity to show them as more than a monolith in all their complexity. We know Gondor and its terrible treatment of them Haradrim is part of the reason why they trusted Sauron.

@niktonic5379

Жыл бұрын

YES

@Arzeusinti

Жыл бұрын

Very true there is even more room for personal creativity that can expand upon Tolkeins world, but they were going for the big bucks, and I don't think the majority of the LORT enjoyers are too interested in the other cultures and peoples of middle earth.

@messymermex

Жыл бұрын

@@Arzeusinti It seems it was the intention to an extent with the Southlanders, who also have a history of serving Sauron, but then Bronwyn and her son Theo are the only characters played by people of color in the region (Nazanin is West Asian/of the Iranian diaspora) that I’ve noticed, although Bronwyn is one of the best characters of the series- and I don’t know why the romance between her and Arondir wasn’t enough for Amazon because it works a lot better than hinting at Galadriel & Halbrand/Sauron. -So I don’t think we can conclude that the majority of people in the Southlands are inspired by people from countries with a majority PoC population like the Haradrim/Easterlings/etc.

@Arzeusinti

Жыл бұрын

@@messymermex it's such a weird "romance" as well, it's the kind of thing you'd find in a Tumblr thread or a fanfic (that of Galadriel and Sauron) the typical "I can change him" trope lol. I haven't really watched it tbf, so I didn't even know they had Haradrim characters. I guess you're right, added them as a "test the water" kinda thing, to see if people would be interested in the south. It kinda feels that TRoP is trying to be deep but turned out to be a popcorn flick.

@joshuabaughman3112

Жыл бұрын

@@Arzeusinti As a fan of the lore, I suppose I am minority. I recently have been very interested in these places, especially the far east. When I look at the map of the whole middle-earth, it just makes me wonder what can or could be there, both in Tolkien's imagination, as well as mine, beyond the borders of the normal map we all know.

"Non-binary Eminem" 🤣🤣 Love it!

Having a nomad ask "do you ever wonder what else is out there?" is just buckwild to me. That's something you have a hobbit in the Shire say. Also, Galadriel being called man-maiden and super tall feels super trans. His change around Tolkien and the Dwarves is interesting, because I would argue he almost is in conversation with his earlier views - his later dwarves are not just noble, but their nobility and history and heritage are dismissed by those around them. No one cares to see dwarves beyond how they can use them and accusations of greed.

I found… alternate methods to watch this show because as much as I love Tolkien, Amazon. This was a really interesting conversation on the show, raising so many points I did not even consider spending so much time lost in lore implications and the utter splendor of Numenor. That said, it was so nice to hear someone even tangentially confirm my frustration with Tolkien’s work as anti-orc propaganda. My family is very deeply steeped in all things Tolkien and that usually draws eye rolls. But it runs so much deeper than even my shallow read obviously. Sharing this with my family for sure.

Seeing that it is a prequel, there is a super obvious way they could have added diversity without resorting to the sort of bland table scrap casting we're used to. Just have part of the series take place in Harad or with the Easterlings. Imagine following a story where someone(s) notice the power growing in Mordor, and try to unravel what it going on/resist. There are plenty of places that they could spice up and expand upon pretty freely.

@laisphinto6372

Жыл бұрын

for that you have to assume they actually know anything about the vast lore from tolkien . thats the same reasons why we get so many race swapped supeheroes and barely og diverse superheroes because these idiots are all for equality but never bother to Research even the surface level to realize that blue marvel or icon exist.

I'm a 42 year old man "fanboy" of exactly two fictional IPs. Sherlock Holmes and Tolkien's LotR/Middle-Earth. ROP was precisely what the BBC "Sherlock" was. It was neither a fun romp around the fictional universe, knowing it was playing fast and loose with the "canon", nor was it something that tried to be authentic in any way. The BBC "Sherlock" was awful, in that it completely changed who Sherlock Holmes was. They took one or two facets of him, then made an entirely new character, then slapped the name on him. Which is why I can watch some of the older Sherlock Holmes short films and be OK with some of their liberties, and I can watch the Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock movies. I can even watch "Elementary" and other Sherlock-implied shows, and find them enjoyable. But the BBC "Sherlock" series? No, it was the worst of the worst. And that's sort of like ROP. I've said before that Amazon could have so easily just made almost this precisely same series, with everything identical except the names and places, and called it an "homage to Tolkien" and I'd have probably thought it was pretty decent. I would have at least been excited about Season 2 anyway (because Season 1 was boring no matter what). But no, they changed the world to seem entirely inauthentic from the original vision, but they slapped all the names on the people and places to make us think it's Tolkien's word. So yeah, ROP and BBC "Sherlock" are two shows I despise, and it has everything to do with the complete inauthenticity of the writers and the world they were building. The writers for ROP had no more desire to make this an authentic vision of Middle Earth than the BBC writers had in how they wrote Sherlock Holmes. They wanted to be creative and do their own thing, but call it by the name of something that was already popular. To blame the hate/dislike of ROP on anti-wokeness or that kind of thing is middle-school level thinking.

17:17 this is so important for medial literacy, especially for fiction. The whole "it's actually pretty fucked up if you think about it" take on fiction only applies if you try to map it 1to1 to reality. But that's not how any of this works. Fiction is what it is framed as. If Tolkien frames the Orcs as inherently evil, they're inherently evil. Their moral simplicity is a fictional element of the story just like the immortality of the elves, because they serve a narrative purpose rather than a social allegorical one.

@blakeriley8546

4 ай бұрын

i had the same thought

@nightsplurge810

Ай бұрын

Literally this the video was great until that hiccup

I would say they definitely should've kept the androgyny of the Dwarves and Elves because of how that just honestly works, like the idea of Elven men just being pretty and elegant and what we would consider feminine kinda makes a lot of sense within the Elves and the same applies to Dwarven women, like I can imagine Dwarven women being just as rowdy as the men due to the culture of the Dwarves. I think race is interesting in Tolkien's work because I do think while the Orcs are definitely portrayed negatively and as inherently evil, also you hit the nail on the head as in a lot of the race issues in Tolkien's work are more closely linked to class and very few shows and film studios try to tackle that problem and none of them are brave enough to simply because they might be labeled communist if they dare to address the problems of class in the world of Tolkien. I would use an example of how diversity can be done more correctly in a series that isn't really that diverse. To me just imagine culture being the defining feature of people not their race, because that in turn creates a more realistic sense of diversity like take for example. If a Half Orc from Dungeons and Dragons grew up in a culture that prized peace and intelligence, you could see that Half Orc being a smart peaceful being who doesn't want to fight all the time because of the culture they grew up in, then you take a noble's son who is raised by an Orcish tribe in the same series and that Orcish tribe is very nomadic and fights a lot of people due to the fact they live in a desert and raiding is the only way to survive, that son of a noble is going to be a more Raider type of person because of the culture he grew up in, but then you can add Orcs who have a calmer nature in that tribe. Because with the bigger focus on culture rather than race it reflects the diversity of our world. Because our world is very different, a South African man who is black has a very different culture to a Black American man because they come from two different countries, one has a culture that can trace all its history back to almost B.C.E period potentially and the other can trace their history to an African culture but due to being American a lot of that formerly African culture is lost as fast food and consumer culture is more prevalent in a Black American man. I think an even better example is this though Indigenous Australians are probably the best example of differences in culture rather than race. You cannot compare a Black American to how an Indigenous Aussie lives because their cultures are significantly different in massive ways, yet we would say, "They are both black people." The same even applies to white people and Asian people, like we wouldn't call China and Japan the same in terms of culture, or we wouldn't call Poland and France the same in terms of culture and yet we would say, "Oh they are the same race." And yet here we go, a African man from Nigeria who lives in France his whole life would call himself French though and would try and practice his African culture in small ways like maybe the food he eats might be more Nigerian in style. So in all honesty that is why for me culture is more significant when compared to race. Because race does certainly exist and should be taken into consideration but when creating a world, the best way to separate different groups of people is by playing more with culture and focusing more on race as a more physical feature and culture represents how they act and go about their lives in the world. Because if we entirely focus on race that basically means we consider all of them to be the same as each other. So are all African cultures the exact same as each other, no they damn well aren't the same and that is because of culture and that needs to be the way we think about race in worlds like Middle Earth because it's like I can imagine a guy born in Rhun living in Gondor for the majority of his life and setting up a small shop or even place for people to eat where he cooks food that he might have loved in his home country but then he embraces aspects of Gondorian culture as well.

@matiasluukkanen7718

Жыл бұрын

Dwarves are not rowdy like football hooligans in Glasgow pub that Jackson made them out to be. They were semitic warrior poets who were unforgiving and indomitable, grim and fearsome in anger, but steadfast in friendship. This show was doomed to fail, as it built itself upon misconceptions and adaptation of Tolkien, instead of trying to adapt what Tolkien actually wrote. It is perfect piece of americanized popular culture.

@hozie6795

Жыл бұрын

@@fantasywind3923 To be fair, none of that precludes having feminine features? I agree that book Legolas is cool as fuck and everyone massively underestimates the immense physical strength required to be a pre-modern archer, but he could still absolutely be a totally yoked twink. While I do not think that Tolkien intended his elves to be read as androgynous, I do think it is a cool way that interpretation and response to his work has evolved past his original intention. Elves not really aligning with traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity and possessing their own sort of ethereal androgyny contributes to the sense of otherworldliness that they have in Tolkien's writing. They are fair beings from a different age; why should their beauty be limited by the crude physicality of the body?

@lordjustinian2913

Жыл бұрын

@@fantasywind3923 The thing is I don't think it's a "ladylike" interpretation of the characters though, it's the fact in our current world, men who care about beauty and appearance are often called "feminine" by our current society and yet Elven men are very beautiful and pretty boys who can do violent stuff but they are very beautiful men which by men who consider themselves masculine would be considered feminine.

@partyboi8773

Жыл бұрын

@@matiasluukkanen7718 I agree with almost everything you said, except its being "Americanized" popular culture. It's "Hollywood-ized" (or "profit-driven, cash-grab") popular culture. Call it bias, as I do happen to be American, but authors from the U.S. created much of the most innovative, influential, and nuanced fantasy/SF in the past century. You may have heard of Robert E. Howard, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, W.E.B. Du Bois, Ursula Le Guin, Isaac Asimov, Samuel R. Delaney, Robt. Heinlein, Philip K. Dick, Octavia E. Butler, N.K. Jemisin, Harlan Ellison, Kim Stanley Robinson, Gene Wolfe...

@ingweking8748

Жыл бұрын

This is a lot of big words to spew nonsense

(about what is said around 13:00) the fact that this show revolves entirely about a revelation really prove that the writers didn't understand Tolkien at all since he is the king of spoiling his own stories (anyone who has read the Silmarilion knows this)

"None-binary Eminem"😂😂😂😂

"Your kind was a mistake" interesting line for sure...

The true fail is that there is nothing noble about a revenge plot.

Thank you for so very eloquently summing up so many of the criticisms I had of the show.

Idk if "fixing" racism in middle earth makes a lot of sense for a series to do, particularly as a prequel. The races of the world in middle earth are have qualities that are, as they appear, basically genetic, if not strongly cultural. I think it works a lot better as a dark commentary of racism, which the rings of power comes very close to doing but kinda gets tripped up in the racial good and evil of tolkien's world. That the orcs are looking for a home after being freed from slavery and then subsequently geocided by the elves, or that the southmen have to grapple with either joining the orcs to survive or die to convince the elves that they aren't evil at their core, is a compelling story of the "evil" people from the lord of the rings trilogy, but the elves are still positioned as the "good" people and the orcs as deserving genocide as opposed to making the story about how the elves basically forced the war of the rings by the way they handled the people in middle earth following their previous war. Numenor would've been a great way to confront this, they have a longstanding distrust of elves which Galadriel could have discovered to have come from the distain of elves making their lives hell while insisting that they were saving Numenor and ignoring Numenor's wishes. Galadriel could have been a heroic character that learns to consider the people she thought were beneath her instead of a hateful genocidal maniac hellbent on murdering her enemies

@chanterelle483

3 ай бұрын

I really don't get why people talk about the story arc of Galadriel's personal growth as if the possibility was entirely gone. This was just a season 1 out of at least three or five that were planned. I think it's quite obvious they wanted something like that happen later on. Btw. I kinda like your idea. It wouldn't lore-accurate either, I guess you don't have to mind but it would still be a big problem for people to watch. I'd just point out that Númenorians were traditional allies of Elves and nothing bad ever happened between them, so this part of the story should probably be reconsidered.

Calling Tolkien a "dickhead" is wildly reductive and almost flippantly insulting. I think this video fundamentally misunderstands what Tolkien was actually trying to say, and seems to assume that any kind of comparison of fantasy races to real ones is fundamentally racist and bad. If that's the case, then every fantasy that portrays a fantasy version of a real world culture (fantasy Mongols in Song of Ice and Fire for instance) is inherently reductive, malicious, and comes from a place of misunderstanding. Using particular aspects of certain cultures (language, propensity for violence, etc.) is not stealing, nor is it a sign of extreme racism. “I do think of the ‘Dwarves’ like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their native tongue” is not racist, it's a portrayal of what Jews were genuinely going through in his days: displacement, isolation, and seclusion among those who spoke their language and followed their customs. In fact, most races on earth do that when they're suddenly thrust in large numbers into a place where their culture isn't the majority. It's assuming that Tolkien had some longstanding bias AGAINST Jewish people, and against people of other races in particular, completely ignoring that as a scholar Tolkien was well acquainted with the storytelling motifs. Yes, there are "greater" and "lesser" races of Men... because that's how most ancient myths worked. Gods, demigods, regular people, all in a hierarchy of nature. Greater and superior kinds of beings that gradually degenerated. An exploration of why people saw beauty and felt great emotion for something they felt was lost when the world around them was violent and full of ugly, nasty people. We literally do the same thing now with our superheroes. And those "greater Men" were greater in pure power and physicality and might, NOT morality, as the Numenoreans themselves became evil conquerors. What it's NOT is Tolkien saying there are literally "superior races" like the Nazis did or something. Sheesh, and the rest of the video seemed so on point.

@damaramu.

4 ай бұрын

Did you even watch the video?

@JasonOfArgo

4 ай бұрын

@@damaramu. obviously I watched the video, or I wouldn't be commenting on specific points made in it. Do you just throw that question around and mistake it for an argument?

@IronheartvsMiles

2 ай бұрын

Cry about it racist

I would like to add that in deeper lore there were Haradrim who resisted Sauron, we just don't see them because all we do see of them were the invading force under Sauron's command. One of the blue wizards was allegedly involved.

@stefanoputignano1555

Жыл бұрын

wasn't Khand the place where the Blue wizards went to try and convince the people about Sauron's danger?

I suppose, if you squint a bit, you could say that Galadriel only looks short because she hangs out with Numenoreans who are all super tall. For the record though, I agree with you and am glad I'm not the only one upset by all the horrible elven haircuts in RoP.

@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t

Жыл бұрын

Well, if you put her in frame with Elendil the Tall - who earns that moninker by being nearly 8 feet tall - it makes sense. But Show Elendil isn't really particularly tall amongst his fellow Numenoreans, it starts to fall apart.

@JamesGraham1974

Жыл бұрын

@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t If only the special effects company they used had somehow devised a series of camera techniques to make short people look much taller and vice versa. It would have come in really handy!

@englishlady9797

Жыл бұрын

Galadriel looks short even in comparison to regular humans and certainly among other Elves (some of whom are not Noldor). The actress if 5"2 in real life. She is short.

As a loooong time Tolkien fan this was one of the best criticisms of Rings of Power, even from a very book canon perspective.

15:49 They are described as kind of sallow and yellow. Not dark skinned.