I personally love Nashville in yellow since it makes them stand out from the rest of the league. However I really think they need another navy blue alternate. I own both the original navy alt and the prototype away of it and they are beautiful jerseys. They can simply bring back that same design or even do something with the mustard cat logo or the skull fossil logo as the primary logo. They would both pop on a navy blue base

@f41l6

Жыл бұрын

As an avs fan I agree that navy jerseys for alternates are great

@itzshade7830

Жыл бұрын

I liked the first version of nashvilles yellow when they made the switch, almost too much yellow for me now but still decent

@tuningin4982

Жыл бұрын

The Pens are yellow too.

@ninjadude17

Жыл бұрын

Nashville easily had a good alternate option with the Smashville jerseys they had for the 2022 Stadium Series. At least change the away jerseys they just don’t stand out for me.

@gilgalad6231

Жыл бұрын

I think it needs some navy. If the yellow stays, it needs navy shoulders or strips or something. The 95% yellow is terrible. I am a Nashville fan and I think they have the worst jersey in the league. It is so bad. I also think they need a navy jersey that they wear like 10 home games a year. I own just about every Preds jersey and my Fisher jersey from 2015 is my favorite. Just enough yellow and blue. Sooooo much better than the atrocity we wear now.

as a pens fan i love the robo pen. i know alot of folks hate it, but i dig it alot. i personally would love for them to do the diagonal jerseys as their main jerseys.

These are my views on ones that need a change 100% and what I'd change it to: Ducks: I'd probably try to use the Old school design with modern colours. A combination of their past and present. Their RR from this past year was one of my favs and I think the colours just work for the current age. Carolina: I think for them, just make their jerseys feel connected. I think each of their main jerseys are individually solid, just they don't feel connected. So I say pick one and make it their home and away. Columbus: I think them going with the cannon design might be a great way to mix up their brand. A lot of teams do blue, red, and white, so the double blue with a white, silver, and off white might be a great way to make their identity stand out. Though I still don't mind their current look, so that could be an alternate. LA: I'd LOVE them to change to purple and gold. The Reverse Retros were very popular for a reason and they just pop. Plus I like the idea of them having the same colour scheme of Lakers who are in the same building. Just poetry. It rhymes. Nashville: I think I'd keep them yellow because it makes them stand out from the NHL, but I'd probably find a design which feels less over the top yellow. I think their reverse retro 1.0 was amazing because it had enough other colours with the silver and blue to balance it. I think that is a jersey you can build on. New Jersey: Change the striping a bit. I think mixing it up would be nice just because they have had it for a while and I think it can change. You concept with black I do like and can be a good example. St. Louis: This isn't a must, but I'd be interested in seeing what a concept would look like that is closer to their original look of one shade of blue and yellow. It's pretty nice and it would be interesting. Tampa Bay: PLEASE ADD SOME BLACK! YOU GUYS LOOK TOO MUCH LIKE THE LEAFS AND THEY ARE IN YOUR DIVISION AND HAVE HAD THAT DESIGN FOR ALMOST A CENTURY! Washington: I am not going to say they need to go with the black, blue, and copper, but they have had their jerseys for some time and unless you are an original six team with SUCH an iconic look, a refresh can do you some good. That's all they really need, a refresh. Winnipeg: I might be in the minority when I say I prefer their current logo to the old one. It is far more modern and I like the inspiration from the Canadian Air Force logo. BUT, I do really love those retro alternates. So if I was in charge, I'd combine the two. The Darker blue, red and stripes from those alternates with the modern logo made to fit in with it.

agree 100% with the canes, the ducks I would keep their reverse retro and make a home version of it

I like your opinion on most of these, I’ve seen some pretty cool concepts for winnipeg that’s more of a modern twist on those classic looking jersey that would be really nice

Devils fans have wanted their stripes back for years.

@billerdek4824

Жыл бұрын

Maybe a shoulder patch and new number font too.

As a Kings fan, I’ve wanted the crown to be the main logo for awhile now. I don’t think they’ll ever switch the current color scheme, so just a few tweaks is really all they need. I do wish they’d do something with the coat of arms logo from those early 2000’s jerseys, too.

@henrymanzano2201

Жыл бұрын

I'd love to see them work purple back into the color scheme,but keep black and silver with it instead of yellow

@Dadwithapan

Жыл бұрын

I'm so ready for color to be in their rotation more often. Black/Silver as their primary is fine, but I'd love to see purple/gold as a permanent alternate rather than every now and then.

I actually like the panthers current jersey. Especially the away. Maybe cause I’m a panthers fan although I really wish that we would use both retros as alternates because we literally only wear the home jersey the whole year and for like 6 games we wore the blue retro but I wish they would make the retros alternates. One of my favorite jerseys in the league is that dark blue almost black and orange oilers jersey. I know everyone hates that thing but I think it looks sick

This next contract could be a good way for the NHL to just get away from home/away and use contrasting sets that work for any variety of situations. Nashville with a blue set and a yellow set would be great and the league could benefit from a broader color spectrum

Your ideas look really cool, not only that I like why you picked those. But just one question, can you use a cream color a way jersey or does it have to be white?

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I'm almost certain you'd be allowed to, but I guess I'm not 100% sure

The original orca away in the adidas jersey from their 50th season looks so clean. I’d be more than okay for the original orca jerseys to come back.

For the lightning, I think the old color scheme from their 2004 jerseys but with their current logo would look pretty nice.

A guy in the comments suggested using "Primaries" and "Secondaries" instead of home and away jerseys. I like his idea and would like to extend it. In my concept Primaries are worn at all home games and some road games, Secondaries are worn at those road games where both teams' Primaries would match colors -------------- Anaheim: 1 (Primary) Eggplant & Green / 2 (Secondary) Orange & Beige I suggest using the Kariya era jersey design full time, alternating between colors from his era and Getzlaf era Arizona: 1 Black / 2 Purple Current design Boston: 1 Black / 2 Yellow Current design Buffalo: 1 Black / 2 Red Goat head design Calgary: 1 Red / 2 Yellow Current design Carolina: 1 Black / 2 Red Current design, but with hurricane logo instead of storm flag Chicago: 1 Red / 2 Black Current design Colorado: 1 Burgundy & Dark Blue / 2 Light Blue & Red Current design, Secondaries would honour Nordiques Columbus: 1 Navy & Red / 2 Red & Navy Current design Dallas: 1 Victory Green / 2 Black Current design Detroit: 1 Red / 2 White Current design Edmonton: 1 Royal Blue / 2 Orange Current design Florida: 1 Red / 2 Navy Blue Current design Los Angeles: 1 Black / 2 Silver Current design Minnesota: 1 Dark Green / 2 Wheat Current design Montreal: 1 Red / 2 Dark Royal Blue Current design Nashville: 1 Yellow + Modern Sabretooth Tiger / 2 Navy Blue + Classic Sabretooth Tiger Fisher era design New Jersey: 1 Red / 2 Black Parise era design NY Islanders: 1 Blue / 2 Orange Current design NY Rangers: 1 Blue & Red / 2 Red & Blue Current design Ottawa: 1 Red / 2 Black Turris era design Philadelphia: 1 Orange / 2 Black Current design Pittsburgh: 1 Black / 2 Yellow RR 2.0 design San Jose: 1 Teal / 2 Black Current design Seattle: 1 Sea Blue / 2 Light Blue Current design St. Louis: 1 Light Blue / 2 Yellow Current third jersey design Tampa Bay: 1 Blue / 2 Black Current design Toronto: 1 Blue / 2 Black Current Primary and Justin Bieber jersey designs Vancouver: 1 Blue / 2 Algae Green Current design Vegas: 1 Dark Gray / 2 Gold Current design Washington: 1 Polynesian Blue / 2 Black RR 2.0 design Winnipeg: 1 Navy Blue / 2 Red I've seen some neat Jets jersey concepts from Lucas Daitchman and Drew Martin on IG which I'd suggest as full time jerseys for Jets. Red would look fine on them -------------- Some teams would also use 3rd, 4th jerseys for unused ideas, for example Black Vancouver with flying skate, Red Washington with Weagle or Purple LA with retro crown. That would be some NBA-like variety of jerseys

As a Blue Jackets fan myself I gotta admit I like the look of that white cannon jersey. I wouldn't mind that one as an alternate road jersey if we ever get fourth jerseys.

As a Montreal fan who admittedly skimmed through until the Habs part (before watching the rest of the video because it was good), I do agree that the away jersey is lacking in stripes. I like what you did with the bottom stripes, but the strips that intersect the logo look a bit fishy to me. Maybe it’s just the wrong shades, but I don’t like the way to red and blue collide and still prefer the normal away jersey.

For Ottawa as a sens fan I think they kinda whiffed with their second reverse retro. I wanted to see a red version of the old black alternate with the gold stripes from the early 2000s ( aka the senagoth ) would love to see them add something like that as a third jersey.

I would love to see some teams have 2 sets of home and away jerseys. For example, the Islanders would have their normal home and aways, but also have a dark and white version of the fisherman jerseys. I would love to see this idea with the Sabres with their normal look and dark and white "goatheads", Penguins with their normal look and a dark and white "Robo-penguins", Blue Jackets with their normal look and a dark and white Cannon, Jets with their normal look and your suggestion, and Minnesota with a version of what they have now, and their last 2 Reverse Retros

@frostisbestinworld

Жыл бұрын

Wonder if the Hawks will change their logo to appease the masses.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, 2 sets of home & aways I definitely would be on board with.

Every single team with advertising needs to change to NO ADS.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I can't say Yes enough to this. Ads on jerseys are horrific and it bothers me so much that the league went for it

As a jackets fan I love the current home and aways but I’m biased cause the first year they introduced them is the first season I was a hockey fan

Minnesota fan, the red makes the neck line pop up. I really like it actually. And Kevin Weekes broke the news 2 months ago that Wild will be adding the North Stars style full time next season. Think of it like when Reebok had the license and the Wild had the all red jersey and used the Green cursive font jersey too.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Aw. I think that's sad news then about them switching over. I don't actually mind a red neckline for the jersey, I'd just rather the neckline be either fully red or fully green, and when I made my weird GIMP concept it seemed to look better green haha. But I'd be down for a fully red collar as well. I just don't like how the collar design is now.

@ezekiallockhart3388

Жыл бұрын

@@icewyre I guess I can't agree. They have been wearing the current style since 2017, I think I change not only is welcome but needed.

Colorado needs a change badly imo

As a Canes fan, I honestly have no issues with your choices… the storm flag jersey is elite but it just feels over-saturated by this point due to it being the primary home… I guess the only thing I would do is add the *current storm flags to the shoulders in place of the OG “tropical storm” flag EDIT: I’m referring to the shoulders on the red and white jerseys you picked if that wasn’t already clear

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Oh man. Y'know what, I totally agree with you. Yes, I would also prefer the two flags on the shoulders instead of the single tropical storm flag logo.

Pens fans hated that logo in 92 and I doubt it would get a warm reception after they changed it and then the Pens lost the Stanley Cup. That logo is dead in Pittsbugh, in my opinion and as a Pens fan from pre 92 that hated that logo.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I figured that was kind of the general feeling among Pens fans. Don't worry, I won't buy the team lol

@Clone666_

Жыл бұрын

@@icewyre I'm a pens fans and I like the jersey. I bought the reverse retro and love wearing it.

Can’t wait to see the impending new flyers jerseys this off season

@henrymanzano2201

Жыл бұрын

They need to go back to the 80s look,with that darker orange 👍

Can't wait to see New Jersey's new jersey manufacturer!

I agree with you how many teams should revert back to their original theme. Just look at the original six. They still retained their original logos and theme with a few tweaks.

That penguins robo penguin jersey is sick

As a Canucks fan I would wanna see the old 2006s OG whale Jerseys come back, those sweaters are criminally underated and I got one myself.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I do too! And yeah, like I mentioned, I'd love to see that as well. I love the red in there.

@henrymanzano2201

Жыл бұрын

I loved those first Orca Bay jerseys and color scheme

@k1oeve

Жыл бұрын

yeah and they would match the seats in rogers

Your oilers jersey preferences are S tier

100% agree on the Bolts, so glad you didn't say leave them lol.

I’m a Kings fan and yes a jersey change would be nice. If they’d put the crown for the logo.

As a Kings fan, I prefer the shield logos from the late 90s/early 2000s. But instead of the black jersey, I’d do purple.

Agree w oilers… their reverse 1.0 is so underrated

Good video, but lets be honest, you're clearly quite nostalgic and would like most jerseys to go back to early 2000's, besides the the ones that haven't changed much since then. I'm the say way, would like 95% of jerseys to go back 20 years.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I'm as biased as they come, yeah. Coming into watching hockey around 2002 definitely does it for me haha.

Agree with your take on ducks

Orange in the Ducks sweaters are for the county, it fits with the local links they’re trying to maintain and grow Boston has complainers who want to dump the shoulder strips and go back to the solid white and black for all but the sleeves and waist…

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I know it's for the county, I just think the eggplant and teal look better anyway.

@bostonrailfan2427

Жыл бұрын

@@icewyre sorry, but they’re smart in doing something local and making it look decent and away from the Disney era

Expansions aside, we haven't seen a single team come up with a new primary logo since *before* Adidas. Toronto and Florida changed their main logo in 2016, and besides some new alternate logos like in Carolina, no team has brought back anything new. Instead, every rebrand was basically a team just going back to an almost exact replica of their previous look (see: Ottawa, Arizona, Buffalo, Calgary, Edmonton...) What I'd like to see is a team bring something new. I have no problem with a retro 3rd jersey, but I'd LOVE a real, full-on rebrand with a completely new logo and jersey design

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I totally agree. I'm just not sure who I'd want to see it from.

Now it makes sense why your channel kept getting recommended, I’ agree w about 95% of what you said. 90’s nostalgia goes hard lmao. What yr were you born?

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

1995

Oh those Florida jerseys would so much better than the current

That panthers miami vice look is amazing. Their our major rival and I'd still buy a jersey cuz that pink and blue is gorgeous

Hard Agree on the Canucks. Skate should stay as the 3rd, and at the very least our current jerseys should use the Johnny Canuck colours

Carolina’s away jersey was changed by I believe Don Waddell and I hated them at first, but they’ve grown on me. The red home jersey they had last year should be the home style with the black one back as an alternate and maybe a classic away if they decided to change the away. I’m not against the red one you showed since it’s the 25th anniversary jersey based in the 2006 jersey they won the cup in. Nashville doesn’t need a home change. They do need an away change and an alternate option to use. For the alternate they should return the 2022 SMASHVILLE jersey. It’s easily my favorite Preds jersey and just looks amazing.

Rangers need a new alternate . I lovve the liberty jerseys ,but i want something new/different. Also the Crapitals need a update as well i like the older ones

Am I the only one who would be totally cool with teams that have a "classic" logo/jersey trying something new? Then use them as an alternate in a few years to make them true throwbacks? I don't know, just doesn't seem like a classic if you never did anything else. Not just hockey either, football and baseball too.

For the Canes keep the Hurricane flags hockey stick as their home(the negative space North Carolina is so amazing)and go back to the original white away.

Ducks and Caps for sure. Like those old ones.

So many teams need New Jerseys

I agree with Anaheim, should have never changed those

For Seattle, I would do the jersey of the 1917 Seattle Metropolitans (to honor the fact the first US based team to win the Stanley Cup was from Seattle), but in the Kraken color scheme, even if just as an alternate jersey...

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I love the idea of some kind of Metropilitans jersey. I was hoping they would somehow call themselves that before they chose Kraken.

Yes!! Bring back the LA Coat of Arms!

Dude ai agree with most of your thoughts. I'm also one of the opinion that the Kraken is weak, they could really have created something very interesting and finally just released a damn S. I know its because their former team but I dont care ots just a boring letter. And yeah, the Ducks are the first time must move from the D-foot to the og logo and colors.

Yeah that's my issue with our jerseys also. They're gorgeous jerseys but so plain. I look at teams like the golden knights and panthers and I'm like man I wish we had amazing color combos and better looking logo

Blue jackets need there third jersey in off white for away games!!!

@akblades2080

8 ай бұрын

I didn’t watch your video before commenting so I would absolutely agree with you!

I'm getting a little jaded from all the throwbacks, I would love to see some teams try to move their brand forward rather than using the past as a crutch. Vegas and Seattle are both proof that people can love a new look, I would like to see a team like Anaheim, Arizona, or Columbus take advantage of their position at the bottom to do a total rebrand to start a new era.

never change the orig 6 ... the others dont care bout

We got almost the same taste

As a Penguins fan; I love our home and away jerseys. Penguins jerseys are top 10 in the league. However; the half and half necklines on the Adidas jerseys are terrible. Look at the Penguins 2016-2017 neckline; it’s one color and it’s beautiful. RoboPen isn’t coming back. The skating Penguin has been around since 1967 and the Penguins have won 5 Cups with it. It’s an iconic logo from the 1967 expansion along with the Flyers and Blues logos

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah, I'd be unbelivably shocked if the RoboPen ever came back. But that's what I would do personally. I agree too that they could've done better with the Adidas neckline.

The problem with putting an actual Kraken on the jersey is, no actual krakens exist…

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Neither does Cthulu, but we all know what he looks like. Kraken would basically be a giant freaky looking octopus

I’ve always thought every iteration of the predators jerseys have been awful, except that blue and white one.

The current Jets one in my opinion is crap, said it since day one. I've never bought one and never will. The second jersey is the 1970's WHA inspired one. I'd lighten the blue up a bit, put a white shoulder bib on the blue ones and reverse the blue and red on the dark unis logo. Maybe take the current logo and put it in place of the jet on the old one. And for gods sake,use the red pants 😅 I don't know why the new team is so scared of red. Even replacing the light blue in the 2.0 with red would be a huge improvement.

I'm not bias in any way, but I think the Kraken Jersey is perfect the way it is.

The ducks should use the orange third jersey Seattle needs to put handsome squidward

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Haha. That sounds like an ECHL jersey idea

Always the tie ups

Abbotsford already have Johnny Canuck as their jersey

Anaheim needs to get rid of the Duck foot logo. Their 25th anniversary jersey was perfect

No original six team should even think about tinkering with their jersey.

As a Wild fan I hate your home sweater. The green at the bottom of logo fades out

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Y'know, I can totally see that. Perhaps making the cream coloured stripe bigger would help then. I just think the logo size should be increased at least a bit.

Current Dallas jersey are so bad. Used to have a soft spot because of the old kits. New ones are vile

I think the Wild should go back to the red home unis

i’ve dislikes the current panthers logo ever since they first changed it. what was wrong with the angry panther holding a broken hockey stick??

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Throw a broken stick on the jerseys I mentioned and I love that too!

Kings just need to go back to the Gretzky era uniforms/logos and call it a day… and never change… best in the nhl

la kings need to go to that retro purple/gold jersey with imperial margarine crown full time. Also go back to white at home. Thanks bettman you schmuck.

I feel like in our fanbase it may be unpopular because of the success in what they have been wearing the last decade but i agree they should add some black to the jerseys. Just a little bland and very similar to Toronto

Panthers for sure

Winnipeg might not own the rights to those old designs…they’re not the same franchise that wore them, Arizona would have to give them up first

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure if there's a difference for using that logo on a main jersey rather than just on an alt, but they definitely have the rights to use that logo on jerseys as that's their current alternate jersey, and the white version they used a only a couple years or so ago

I don’t think the isles should ever go away from the royal blue, it’s been our colors forever. If they did… I wouldn’t mind seeing the OG fisherman again. Including the real and wacky numbers.

Buffalo alternate jersey should be full time, undisputed

If the Capitals bring back the screaming eagle, Ovechkin is 100% scoring like 70 freaking goals. Lmao

As an Oilers fan, while I do love the blue, I absolutely would not be offended if they went to what you suggested.

The Bruins need to go back to the gold socks for the home jerseys.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I agree with this as well

as a Leafs fan, the Ducks absolutely need a complete rebrand

@zednik4hart

Жыл бұрын

should have the rr from this year as the home and theyre current jereeys as the alt

Unpopular Opinion: I despise the current San Jose Sharks getup. It's almost entirely one solid colour, and that colour is bright and loud! Too much! Every time I watch a Sharks game I find their gear more distracting than the moving board ads. I'm a big advocate of returning to the 2008 sweaters, with the black shoulders, black bands, and black pants. Much more balanced and pleasant to look at, I feel. I'm not even a Sharks fan, I just can't stand watching them play in that clown costume!

Canadian teams should display the red ensign flag.

Ducks. Webbed foot sucks. Old school baby. Orange alternate for home, reverse retro for away.

Perhaps the Canucks should have a hypodermic needle on skates.

I haven't started the video yet, but as a die-hard CBJ fan, I want to say that I think our logo is the worst in the NHL, our mascot (Stinger) is the worst in the 4 major North American professional sports leagues, and our home uniforms are dreadful. If we switched to the cannon (or at LEAST our current reverse retro), I think our fan base and players would have something that we could take a bit more pride in.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Wow. I love this comment. By now, you likely have seen my Columbus choice and are probably pretty happy about it. But what do you think of that away jersey concept, the off-white cannon away?

@Footy_Fan

Жыл бұрын

@IceWyre that is one of my favorite jerseys I have ever seen, actually. Creme/Oatmeal/Off-white is one of probably top 5 favorite colors. Add the color scheme AND our awesome cannon logo? That jersey is gorgeous. By the way, I am so glad I happened upon your channel, my friend. I didn't think I could like any other hockey channels as much as I do The Hockey Guy, and Twisted Wrister Hockey, but you are right there with them. Keep up the great work!

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Nice :) and yeah I recently just subbed to Twisted Wrister. He's pretty good. I've been subbed to THG since like 2017 lol

@Footy_Fan

Жыл бұрын

@IceWyre very awesome! You guys are definitely my go-to KZread NHL guys, for sure. I wish you could do a 3-way collaboration. That would be fantastic. Keep up the great work, my friend. I really look forward to your content.

The Ducks jerseys were so great before they ruined their look. Go back to the OG look

Nah florida is fine imo

Sharks need to change back to their 1991 jersey and never change again. Spread the word!

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't mind that. But I do think the change they just made was a good one.

100% agree with your oilers take.. so boring they keep going back to those lame royal blues

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I mean they're the best version of the royal blues I'd say, but it's true that I've never been big on the royal blue style at all

Panthers need a change, it's pissing me off as a fan. Bring back the OG panther logo from the 90's.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Totally

I hate the Panthers’ jerseys so much that I black out their team’s existence in my mind.

LA the crown in the RR 1.0 colours

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I'd love that as a full time alternate

Honestly i think after watching this video you really are self admittedly stuck in the 90’s. I agree with you on the Hurricanes though the current ones are terrible. Your panther ideas were all terrible in my opinion. Ugh your Vancouver choice 🤮

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Haha I get the Vancouver choice hate. What would you prefer for the Panthers, though?

Seriously they really should bring back the old might ducks logo!!!! the actual ducks logo is a disgrace. I've never loved this logo it's ugly and the color is even uglier!!!!

"Bring back, bring back, bring back!" it's like nobody wants to innovate or try anything new

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

I would actually like something completely new for some teams, I'm just not sure for who. But I'd love to see some new designs come in.

@GlacialLake

Жыл бұрын

@@icewyre Atlante, Arizona and Vancouver could all use complete redesigns + new colour pallettes. A lot of teams that went back to old designs in recent years should have tried something different, or made changes to their look instead.

@GlacialLake

Жыл бұрын

@@icewyre lmfao "atlanta" XD I meant anaheim

Ahhh soo awful the Canucks jersey

Please, hockey players wear “sweaters”

Downvoted because it's eggplant and JADE. Not eggplant and teal. Bro.

@icewyre

Жыл бұрын

Oof, that's pretty petty. I'm not the best with colour names already.

Im sorry how on earth do you talk about what should be changed on jerseys put up a racist character and go .....nope thats fine , the blackhawks need to change their logo like 20 years ago come on....how do you not change it to oh i dont know......... a black hawk ??????