The answer is that they're the same in isolation, but different when a particle follows.

@lastnamefirstname8655

2 жыл бұрын

thank you dogen.

@meerfalldewott

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Dogen, i’ll add this to pile of reasons why my tutor hates me

@meerfalldewott

2 жыл бұрын

weetwteqtwtwwt My pronunciation is really bad ( ＾∀＾)

@eondiax

2 жыл бұрын

This is new to me, thanks Dogen

@rodrigoe3104

2 жыл бұрын

knowing “this” is a thing in Japanese pronunciation almost made me quit Japanese learning. Really, and outstandingly difficult language.

It always disturbs me how quickly he changes from Japanese to a completely American pronunciation

@Eeeveelution_snuggleplayz

2 жыл бұрын

It's very jarring and I thoroughly enjoy it.

@Beeks81

2 жыл бұрын

Not knowing Japanese, i love it when he does this. Whenever i'm watching an anime and they use an English word, i say "Oops, there's no Japanese word for [something that most definitely has a Japanese word]". In these videos, however, it's most likely the subject of the video, though.

@broadwayzjm5257

2 жыл бұрын

For bilingual people this is pretty normal 😄 It's formally called "code-switching".

@catboymonstrosity

2 жыл бұрын

@@broadwayzjm5257 I'm bilingual since infancy (parents speak different languages and I am perfectly fluent in both) and I tend to struggle when I try to do this, so I think it's amazing and I really admire it ,,, I get anxious about my wires getting crossed and transposing the wrong accent onto the wrong language, which has happened to me before, and I think being afraid of that happening makes me more likely to mess up. It's like I have to stop for a moment and rewire my brain and mouth behaviour to match the rest of what I'm saying, be really deliberate. I get into one language 'mode' and then the other language's sounds don't feel natural and I have to consciously switch.

@loogloogloogr

2 жыл бұрын

yes it is hard to do that

As a Japanese person, this was the first time I realized that the pitch accent of the particle は is different for 鼻は and 花は, yet we distinguish and pronounce them correctly on unconscious level. Most of us would suck at explaining the difference though, as in this vid, lol.

@Val.Kyrie.

2 жыл бұрын

I assume it’s similar to how an English speaker knows how to say read or read based on context. They’re different. Or if you meant reed or red.

@krissydiggs

2 жыл бұрын

It’s the same for a lot of things in English I never think about 😅 I have these problems teaching too

@Mikaela_Westmt

2 жыл бұрын

@@Val.Kyrie. Yes, but all English natives (and whoever speaks English for that matter) know that read and read (past tense) are pronounced differently depending on context. Most Japanese, on the other hand, don't even realize or know that 鼻は and 花は have different pitch accent until someone like Dogen tells you - because the noun 花 and 鼻 are pronounced exactly the same. So I guess It's a lot more complicated.

@alphaxfang

2 жыл бұрын

For native people they already memorize and use that sentence in their whole life, so they subconsciously use the correct one and feel any other pronunciation as weird or feel off... But when you need to explain why it like that, you need to have deeper understanding/knowledge of your language... That's why sometime even a native speaker can't really explain their language that well... In simpler term native speaker rely on their instinct or memory on what sound correct, they doesn't construct the language from scratch but they just recall the speech pattern from memory...

@comimi2009

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mikaela_Westmt This is interesting. As a Japanese, I wanna learn to teach Japanese. 深いですねぇ〜

exactly! my Japanese friends always say “don’t worry, we’ll understand from the context” but often times they double check what I meant or correct my pronunciation.

@mavsworld1733

2 жыл бұрын

Native English speakers do the same thing to Japanese people learning English. When words are said in sentences they aren't pronounced the same as in isolation, as in a sentence we soften sounds to add in sentence stress. Native speakers in general don't realise we do this.

@amarug

2 жыл бұрын

this has never happened to me yet, but i was told that pronounciation was good (not just the 'jouzu' but lenghty explanations with comparisons to 'other learners', which makes me believe that they do mean at least part of it)

@xandercorp6175

2 жыл бұрын

Well, if you get the context wrong, they can't blamed for not being able to use it to understand you.

@PEDROGARCIA-qj3gr

2 жыл бұрын

I don't believe the accent in any language should be taken this serious, the only thing you get by doing this is putting too much attention in it instead in actually speaking...

@naomijackson4691

2 жыл бұрын

@@PEDROGARCIA-qj3gr but for speakers who already have a passing fluency, there's nothing wrong with trying to be more understandable. It makes communication flow better, which is ultimately the goal, is it not? It's better for everyone if we don't have to put so much brain power into trying to understand what the other person is saying.

I love how the teacher needs to pronounce them out loud for himself in order to make sure ;D

@JackiJinx

2 жыл бұрын

My teacher does the exact same thing. I've done the same thing for others in English. アメリカ人の知らない英語

@SlackwareNVM

2 жыл бұрын

@@JackiJinx Yeah, it's when you don't know the grammatical rule, but you can _feel_ the difference.

@JackiJinx

2 жыл бұрын

@@SlackwareNVM I was trying to make a joke using the book 日本人の知らない日本語 but I understand what you mean

@SlackwareNVM

2 жыл бұрын

@@JackiJinx Oh, my bad, I don't know that one

@JackiJinx

2 жыл бұрын

@@SlackwareNVM That is okay! It's got some funny situations and nuances about teaching foreigners Japanese from a Japanese teacher's perspective

The real answer is the answers we make along the way.

@terrancenightingale1749

2 жыл бұрын

This is such an anime thing to say...and that makes me so happy.

@foogod4237

2 жыл бұрын

I'm gonna have to steal this one for my own use. Truly brilliant!

@starr0401

2 жыл бұрын

@@terrancenightingale1749 It feels more cartoon than anime to me. 😅

@randominternetguy3537

2 жыл бұрын

@@starr0401 have you seen shounen or Isekai?

@SownJevan

4 ай бұрын

This phrase is such a good way to describe learning a language.

あの菊の花は聞くところによると鼻の病気に効くそうです。

"Japanese is a フラット language" PTSD activated

@jamesestrella5911

2 жыл бұрын

More like it flattens you in "respect".

@Oblithian

2 жыл бұрын

ファット？

@_ruted

Жыл бұрын

@@Oblithian lol

My flour-flower-nose story. I speak English to my 8 yr old son, who speaks Japanese back to me. One day we were talking about bread and noodles, and I started telling him about how they are all made from flour. He was like, 花で作られている？？？ And I was like, "No, not flowers, flour." And he said, 花じゃなくて、鼻？？ We both laughed for a pretty long time. The fact that both languages have two different words (flour/flower and 鼻/花) that just so happen to intersect each other in this equally confusing way was pretty amazing to us.

@13gan

2 жыл бұрын

In most of the world, flour is pronounced the same as flower but there is another way to pronounce it and its more like "flar" or flaa". Apparently, this is the pronunciation that was taught in Malaysia and Singapore during the colonial times up to quite recently if its not still being taught today. In Indian English apparently pronounce it "Floor" like the floor of a house. Both probably was influenced by the French "Fleur" as flour in its current meaning is borrowed from the French, partially replacing the Anglo-Saxon word "Meal", like in "wheat meal".

@supernova5170

2 жыл бұрын

@@13ganAm singaporean can confirm, pronouncing flour as flower sounds strange to me, even though my own english teacher taught it as such. Too used to hearing my parents say flar

@lolipedofin

2 жыл бұрын

@@13gan Uhhh... Fleur is flower, right? Also that flaar thing totally threw me off when I studied in Singapore, everyone around me convinced that my pronunciation was the wrong one. I was almost convinced I had been wrong all this time.

@ShadowFoxSF

2 жыл бұрын

They had a joke that played hard on this exact homophone in an old cartoon, Dexter's Lab. Deedee was making a pie for Dexter, and when asked about ingredients mentions flour. Dexter didn't want any suspicious ingredients and accused her of using Flowers. She then brings out the bag which reads "Flour", but said bag had a simple flower drawing on it.

@13gan

2 жыл бұрын

@@lolipedofin Yes, fleur is flower but is also used for flour at least in the past, with a few example still being used nowadays like in Fleur de farine and fleur de sel, used primarily to indicate "fine" (as opposed to "coarse") quality. Even in English, both flower and flour used to be interchangeable for both meaning until around 1830s.

This happens more than you might think, even with native speakers. That's why we pretty much just respond to those with そうですね then change topic.

@herman1francis

2 жыл бұрын

I've got a japanese friend and he always uses that trick when I ask him about particular things of the japanese language xDDD Even my teacher does it at times but she's really professional and she just researches the answer for the next class.

@heroclix0rz

2 жыл бұрын

TIL Japanese people don't understand each other. Got it.

@justkev1044

2 жыл бұрын

ah yes the "ok" card

@randominternetguy3537

2 жыл бұрын

そうですね=so u de su ne= is that so

@justkev1044

2 жыл бұрын

@@randominternetguy3537 is that so = sou desu ka

日本人だけど初めて「花は」と「鼻は」の発音の違いがよく分かった。今まで意識した事ないけど確かに発音する時は「は」の音程が違う。文脈も加味して日本人は感覚的に理解できるけど、これは確かに外国人には難しすぎるな笑

@Kkz_Suika

2 жыл бұрын

日本語を勉強してる中国人です。アクセントの授業を受け、「平板型」と「尾高型」の違いがわかりました。三年間の勉強の中で、一番むずいなぁと思うのはやっぱり敬語表現ですかな。アクセントと漢字はそれほどややこしくないと個人的に思います。

@naya4050

2 жыл бұрын

Plz teach me :''v

@Evelyn_Rose1151

2 жыл бұрын

I noticed Flower was like going from Do to So but Nose is going from Do to Mi.

@istiompaxindica9676

2 жыл бұрын

It seems like the "na" sound in "flower" is a lot higher than "na" in "nose". That's really subtle...

@CiruPlays

2 жыл бұрын

Nobody tell the Japanese about flower and flour yes you can annunciate the w but when said quickly with no heavy intention they're pretty much the same.

This is so frustrating when you're learning a new language and mind blowing in your native one. My Spanish teacher once asked why in English you ride IN a car, but ride ON a bus, and I couldn't explain why. Two years later I realized it's because vehicles you ride IN (cars/trucks) you only sit IN a small enclosed space, but vehicles you ride ON (bus/plane/boat) you first have to stand ON and walk to your seat. Big galaxy brain moment for me but I'd already graduated so the teacher never got an answer 😂

@imhere1303

2 жыл бұрын

Not me saying I'm in the bus

@99temporal

2 жыл бұрын

Then, after years, one of them (on the bus) became the "norm"

@Neslakim

2 жыл бұрын

I ride "the" bus, I "take" the bus. Or; I "travel" by bus. Or I would say I am driving the bus... :S :P If I was wearing a bus costume for Halloween I would say to a friend whos is looking for me I'm in a bus costume. But yeah, I would be ON the second floor of a double decker bus. I hat the word bus now....

@willowkepler

2 жыл бұрын

I can finally die in piece with this information

@davidwilson6577

2 жыл бұрын

Got it! So I'll just hop in my moped and be on my way, thanks!

I literally just had this exact conversation with my Japanese teacher about はな and あめ an hour ago, except I live in Osaka, so the conversation mostly went in circles around the Kansai-ben pronunciation vs the standard pronunciation. :P Fortunately, since I live in Kansai, every time I get it wrong I can just pretend I intended to use the other dialect all along >u>

@Colopty

2 жыл бұрын

Which is weird because はな and あめ aren't even remotely similar words. I'm sorry.

@KaiiAyrenNevaeh

2 жыл бұрын

@@Colopty He's clearly talking about two pairs both words written like that for a total of four words

@halazeisa

2 жыл бұрын

haha true

@Colopty

2 жыл бұрын

@@KaiiAyrenNevaeh Whoosh

@honkhonk3192

2 жыл бұрын

@@KaiiAyrenNevaeh you don't say xD that was a joke.

I want to cry, but there aren’t enough tears

@itsCrust

2 жыл бұрын

i have no mouth but i must scream

@victoriamarfina9819

2 жыл бұрын

@@itsCrust that was the first thing I thought of too xD

助詞の付き方とか意識したことなかった。 日本人にもめちゃくちゃ勉強になります😱

助詞の違いか…凄いなぁ 確かに助詞の発音とか含めて一単語とも言えるかも。こんなに重要だったなんて。 今まで意識してこなかったよ。

"YoU'LL uNDerStaND fRoM tHe cONtExT " seems to be one of my mother's favourite explanations... So we watched this together which prompted repeatedly saying はな。はな。花は。鼻は。は。はなはー。*shrug*

I'm a language teacher and when I am asked to cover for a teacher who teaches my native language I just play youtube videos for the class because hell if I know anything about my own language.

@victoriamarfina9819

2 жыл бұрын

KZread videos? Is it okay? 0_0

@KaiiAyrenNevaeh

2 жыл бұрын

@@victoriamarfina9819 If they're being treated as a substitute then yeah, most likely yeah.

@jadent2632

2 жыл бұрын

I don't teach but.. Same lol don't ask me about English rules they aren't consistent just learn a bunch of words and guess 😂

@mickyj0101

2 жыл бұрын

If it weren't for me learning Japanese, I wouldn't know so much about my own language either. There's lots of little things that make no sense, which you only pick up when learning another language which does it differently. One example would be words with multiple meanings. Often, native speakers don't realise the multiple meanings of words when they're subtly different, but if another language uses two different words for it, you realise this. I didn't really think about the different meanings of the word "with" until learning that in Japanese you use either the particle と or the particle で depending on whether it is with a person, or with a tool.

@columbus8myhw

2 жыл бұрын

Until recently I was convinced that all dialects of English pronounce "our" and "hour" the same. This is not the case - pronouncing "our" like "are" is pretty common, I just hadn't noticed it.

The little "Hontou da." when he sounds it out got me rolling. This is the best part of Dogen's videos. I understand barely any Japanese but his videos are done in such a way that you don't really need to understand the language to understand the content.

@ChronicalV

2 жыл бұрын

you will definitely notice a difference in the way you enjoy his content the more japanese you learn. theres so many easter eggs its insane. and the disconnect between subtitles and what he's saying. its amazing

@jacobprince146

2 жыл бұрын

@@ChronicalV been learning for a year and a half, this entire video was very understandable and quite funny! Interesting to hear the subtle differences and how even Japanese people don't really know the difference they just know it's right lol

@thorbergson

2 жыл бұрын

"Sugoi ne, kimi!"

I've heard people say your comedy isn't for them, and I wasn't sure at first, but the more I understand Japanese, the more I like it. Good job man! :)

@CristiNeagu

2 жыл бұрын

I don't understand more than a few words of Japanese, and I still find it pretty funny. Except his previous video. I really didn't get that one.

@FDE-fw1hd

2 жыл бұрын

@@CristiNeagu it was about how japanese just make up verbs

@CristiNeagu

2 жыл бұрын

@@FDE-fw1hd Yes... I got that from the title... :D

@MiguelEMG

2 жыл бұрын

@@CristiNeagu some of them were like English Japanese like logical for the politician one or simple for the speak easier Japanese for foreigners

@lanhasacat

2 жыл бұрын

I stopped trying to learn Japanese and I still enjoy his comedy.

こういうところに気づけるのって天才的。 なぜなら、日本人でも深く考えるとこの動画のように混乱します。 混乱するけれども、普段は"イメージ"を前後の文脈で理解し、反射的に頭の中に描いてそのまま出力しているから日本人は気づけない。 道元先生は、"イメージ"も"発音"も"文字列"も、常に注意深く観察しているからこそ気づけるのでしょうね。 本当に素晴らしいです。

@OmarLivesUnderSpace

2 жыл бұрын

お世辞ジョーーズーーー！👏🏻

@pahoopahoo

2 жыл бұрын

道元先生は他の一般的な学習者よりも特に音声に関してより突っ込んで勉強しているのは間違いないですが、今回の動画のような内容は道元さんが気づいたというのではなくて、おそらく日本語の音声学で言うと古くから認められている常識なんだと思います。おそらくですが、道元さんがハッと気づいて見つけたというものではなく、勉強熱心な道元さんが、専門の先生からこのようなお話を伺ったとか、または専門書を読んで学んで得たものと思われます。なぜこんなことを言うかと言うと、今回の動画のような内容の動画はyoutube上でもいろいろ検索すれば出てくるからです。私もこれまでいくつか見てきました。もちろんこのようなところまで突っ込んで勉強している外国出身の方はあまり見ないので道元さんの勉強熱心さには頭が下がりますが、少なくとも今回の件に関しては道元さんの発明・発見ではないと思われます。

@user-yg3hx6ls7r

2 жыл бұрын

@@pahoopahoo NANI ( ˙꒳˙ ;) !?

@KaiiAyrenNevaeh

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-yg3hx6ls7r そうです、声音を勉強している人は大体にそれを知っています、常識です。各の単語のアクセントはわかりませんがアクセントの種類がわかります。 まあ、知ってもまだ難しすぎるんですが。 クソ日本語すまん。

友人が言語学で日本語研究をやっていて、名詞のアクセントは助詞を付けて調査するのが基本だと言っていました。 でも、とっさにわからなくなっちゃうよねー！　とも。

I'm not sure if it was intentional but I love the situational humor of having a native English speaker playing both characters in a skit on the intricacies of Japanese pronunciation only to mispronounce the English word "chrysanthemum".

@majidesu6191

2 жыл бұрын

Did he?

@dimitrisdimitriadis4913

2 жыл бұрын

@@majidesu6191 he said "chrysantheNum" around 1:20

この方の動画、お笑いとしての流れや言葉のチョイスがすごく面白くて最近1番の楽しみになってる この動画の日本語の先生の反応もリアルで声出して笑ってしまった…w

The comedy on Dogen-san's channel is always on-point, particularly when the vids give me an unreasonable amount of secondhand frustration. Truly the embodiment of "it's funny because it's true" but with the extra effect of inducing emotional damage.

@ayonixanimations

2 жыл бұрын

Inducing emotional damage xD so true

たしかにただ日本語ネイティブというだけではそこまで深く考えてないよねw 英語でも同じようなことあったけど

「flowerとノーズ」 Dōgen is now switching between English and Katakana *in the same sentence*

This video is perfect. Comedic timing, subtle facial expressions.. you can hear the distress in the teacher's voice as everything he thought he knew about his language unravels. Dogen's best video imo

I'm a Japanese. I'm not realized Japanese accent before I watch this movie. When I say "flower" in japanese, I say "o-hana(お花)" useually. When I say "nose" in japanese, I say only "hana(鼻)".

dogenさんの動画見るといかに音声が言葉で大事かよく分かる。文字を見て勉強してもこれらは分からない。やはり赤ちゃんみたいに音だけ何年も聴いて会話出来るようになってから文字を学ぶのが理想的なんだろうな。

永遠に続くレッスン

it's either you scared everybody for learning japanese or you're making this a challenge to everybody Dogen-san

@theramendutchman

2 жыл бұрын

Consider this challenge _very_ accepted, Dogen. I'm coming for ya!

@victoriamarfina9819

2 жыл бұрын

Well, it's not Mr Dogen's fault Japanese is difficult.

@herman1francis

2 жыл бұрын

@@victoriamarfina9819 It's not that difficult, sonna ni muzukashikunai. It's main difficulty as that it's completely different to romanic languages and we don't have anything to base us upon. You really start from 0

@hollyxytphh

2 жыл бұрын

Not really.. this is no more than N4 level listening. And he spoke pretty slow as well compared to a real Japanese.

And then…there’s the regional variation. I live in Mie prefecture and my mother in law (who is originally from Osaka) doesn’t like how Kanto people pronounce 雲 and 蜘蛛 with the same intonation. It’s definitely different here. (Not that I notice the difference. 😆)

@heppahullu

2 жыл бұрын

I came to the comments to say “aaaaand then…” but you beat me to it, haha 😆

@Jordan-inJapan

2 жыл бұрын

@@heppahullu Sorry about that. 🍻 Trying to master Japanese is like fighting a Hydra. (Except if you give up, the hydra doesn’t actually kill you. It’s like, “your fighting skills are so good!”)

@penttikoivuniemi2146

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jordan-inJapan 格闘上手！

@rintofujimoto

2 жыл бұрын

I'm from Aichi, and I'm always surprised to hear the huge shift in intonation when I enter Mie, a neighbouring prefecture. To me, the intonation sounds like other variations of Kansai Japanese, though the people from Mie insist it's not.

@Jordan-inJapan

2 жыл бұрын

@@rintofujimoto I’m happy someone understands my frustration. My daughters (who were born here) are always laughing at my Japanese when I mix Mie intonation with other areas’. Next time I’ll be like, “there’s this guy from Aichi who says…” 😆 🍻

This is why I always attach a particle to my vocab cards ^^ on a side note Yudai Sensei is an excellent native pitch accent teacher. It's rare to see a native this devoted to, and actually interested in pitch accent. Highly recommend checking him out *you will need to learn all you can from Dogen before it has much value, however*

@arielasentista6637

2 жыл бұрын

Is this Sensei also in KZread?

@OmarLivesUnderSpace

2 жыл бұрын

What for if we have Dogen?

@ShiruSama1

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the recommendation!

@muttlanguages3912

2 жыл бұрын

Did you have to buy a special dictionary where they mentioned this stuff?

@humanbean3

2 жыл бұрын

@@muttlanguages3912 hmmm I recommend you install Yomichan for your PC. You can load it with lots of dictionaries. Ask me if you want a link to all my dictonaries, including ones with pitch accent info. When a word is spoken as just a single word, like Dogen shows you, you can't really tell if it's the pitch pattern that has particles attach low. So if studying a single word out of context as vocab, this dictionary info is pretty valuable.

somehow reminds me of learning Chinese I heard someone almost got slapped for asking 一碗多少？(how much for one bowl?) because it sounds exactly like 一晚多少？(how much for one night?)

@surr3al305

2 жыл бұрын

LOL! As a chinese speaker, I feel like if you're ordering from a food shop, they'll get you from the context. But this is hilarious

@hiimcortana1568

2 жыл бұрын

Tbh.. I won't really think of the second meaning unless we're in a very specific conversation about sex or something. Lol

This is the embodiment of pain when learning pronunciation for me, because my voice is dead as fuck

@FDE-fw1hd

2 жыл бұрын

Wdym

@victoriamarfina9819

2 жыл бұрын

Same here. Was thinking earlier today that I probably should do sports to train belly muscles, that would help with speaking I guess.

@Tyler-bp4md

2 жыл бұрын

@@victoriamarfina9819 yeah you mean the thoracic diaphragm right? it helps a lot with breathing too, so understanding it is a must for people with anxiety imo edit: added the word “thoracic” because apparently there is something else also called a diaphragm…

同じ日本語話者でも出身地の違いでイントネーションが変わってくるのも混乱する原因になりますよね… 全然違う話題ですが、「子子子子子子子子子子子子」という極めて難読な文も日本語にはあるんです（「ねこのここねこ　ししのここじし」と読みます） 奥が深いですね

Hi. I'm a Japanese teacher for foreigners. I try to teach the pitch accent in my lesson. There're many good website to check the correct pitch accent. My students know how to search them. Also I let them watch your videos :)

@Giraffinator

2 жыл бұрын

I must know these websites. I hunger for knowledge.

@PandaBuni

2 жыл бұрын

yes i’d also love to know what websites you recommend!

@miyeyoo

2 жыл бұрын

Please share website

@nihongo-hanasoboardingpass3046

2 жыл бұрын

I tried to reply but somehow, always my message disappeared.

@Giraffinator

2 жыл бұрын

​@@nihongo-hanasoboardingpass3046 Perhaps it has something to do with posting a link? I vaguely remember coming across this problem once before. Google says it is possible, but all the search results are a little outdated.

It's strange and funny at the same time that only several hours ago I talked with my beginner students about pronunciation of 聞く/菊 and was surprised myself that it's the same 🤔

As someone who was just talking with their Japanese colleagues yesterday about the pronunciation of 立てる and 建てる, I feel this in my soul.

@ok-B

2 жыл бұрын

They're both 中高型. When do they differ?

@Kyhic75

2 жыл бұрын

They don't, that's the thing.

@casper2047

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kyhic75 well they're the same word, so...

@icipher6730

2 жыл бұрын

@@casper2047 Except they aren't. They are homonyms, which are words that sound the same, but spelled differently and have different meanings.

@casper2047

2 жыл бұрын

@@icipher6730 but they really are! they are 同訓 and the meaning is based on the word rather than the kanji. the kanji varies based on context

When people ask me why I like learning Japanese, I show them your channel.

@alloy299

2 жыл бұрын

When people ask me why I don't like learning Japanese, I show them this channel.

@yeepsleep

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, the added frustration along the way only makes things more fun imo, but maybe I'm just a masochist

It's actually so interesting how little natives are conscious about pitch accent. I've met people from kansai who were actually surprised when I pointed out that 橋の橋で橋を使う is different in kansai-ben and standard dialect. When I get them to consciously think about they start getting confused about how to actually say it. It's kind of like when you know a keyboard shortcut that you've used so many times before but when you try to tell someone you can't remember the key combinations because you're so used to doing it automatically by muscle-memory. That's how natives feel when trying to explain something they know instinctively (and it's also a big reason why being a native speaker of a language does not automatically qualify them to teach/give language learning advice).

私も日本人ですが、日本人なら発音が変でも意味はよく分かるので、気にしすぎなくても問題はないと思います。

@hide-nyanko

2 жыл бұрын

Japanese can figure your saying if your japanese intnation is strange so no problem : )

Oh my gosh the difference is in the particle I’m gonna scream 😂

In Swedish we also have pitch accent and a lot of homonyms, it’s confusing when pitch, pronunciation, and spelling are all the same, but usually they are at least conjugated differently. For example “bak” can mean “result of baking” (like a noun for things that have been baked) or “butt” (among other things), and the easiest way to distinguish them is the article, “ett bak” is “a baking-result” and “en bak” is “a butt”, “baket” is “the baking-result” and “baken” is “the butt”. Put them in a sentence where they need an article and you should be fine.

関西弁だと鼻と花の発音は違うから 聞き分けられる でも標準語でも「私の好きな鼻は~」 と話題になる状況は特殊だから文脈で分かるかな

@koku7483

2 жыл бұрын

更に関西弁だと「聞く」と「菊」も発音違う でも「聞く」と「効く」は同じだから 結論文脈ですね

This is why I'm learning Japanese just to focus on reading and listening because I don't have any plans to go to Japan nor speak with Japanese people. The same way I learned English, pure reading, watching and listening but has terrible accent lol.

@YellowBunny

2 жыл бұрын

はい、同じです。

@Alians0108

2 жыл бұрын

@私の名前はアザライ / Azraii Nama Saya Conversely, I just speak Japanese with utmost confidence to anyone who also knows Japanese despite it being awful. 100% sure some Japanese people think I type or pronounce like a dumbass but it just feels like the best way to improve.

@arielasentista6637

2 жыл бұрын

I feel you. English was required in school, also required for work so listening, reading or typing isn't an issue. But ask me to speak it? I immediately fall apart. ;) With Japanese, it has become a hobby. More of an experiment whether an old dude (me) would be able to stop relying on subtitles. :)

@djsaidez271

2 жыл бұрын

@@Alians0108 that's often the key, practice it's most helpful if you can get one or two friends you consistently talk with, and that then might give you some feedback at the end

@holliswilliams8426

Жыл бұрын

I tried to learn German and Spanish and had much more success in Spanish as I had actual people to talk to. I couldn't find anyone to practice with in German so have never really learned it.

What is hilarious to me is that I saw the thumbnail of this video and spent a solid two minutes repeating homonyms to myself, using them in sentences, and being utterly confused while I acted out this entire skit before actually watching it.

Rule of thumb. Native speaker will say it sounds strange. Take their advice with a grain of salt and thank them. .... secretly look it up in the NHK pitch accent dictionary app.

@OmarLivesUnderSpace

2 жыл бұрын

There is no such app

@AdrenResi

2 жыл бұрын

most of the time it should be the word choice that sounds strange due to inexperience (just like a kid who tries to use advanced words)

面白いだけでなくこの動画のおかげでchrysanthemumの発音が勉強出来ました。ありがとうございます。

This is the video that's made me want to sign up to your patreon the most

確かに花と鼻で助詞のイントネーションが変わってるね。意識したことなかった…

面白いな～👍 道元さんは才能の塊だね

Got an e-mail from my Japanese teacher today. She said that I say "nose" instead of "flower" and that I should fix it. Felt like my Japanese is useless. This video popped up one hour later suggested by youtube LOL

I’ve been making steady progress in your pronunciation course, so this one really put a smile on my face :)

Dogen you have me rollin, man 🤣🤣 keep up the great work!

Kevin, I always learn something valuable with your videos, both in Japanese language and in the relief that a laugh can bring to my well-being. Thanks!

Holy fuck this is my Japanese teacher haha even the whole "eh?" "chotto matte kudasai...". And they can never answer the questions about the differences!

It's been most of a year since I last watched your videos. After weekly practice with a teacher, I'm so happy I understand most of the Japanese in this one!

わかりやすい上に面白い。良い動画だあ…

イントネーション、日本語が母語の私もたまに間違っていることあります。特に、口語ではあまり出てこず、本を読んで覚えたような語句に顕著です。紙の本は音声を読み上げてくれないので…

The eternal cycle

最近この動画の切り抜きがTikTokとかリールでたくさん流れてきてDogenさんに辿り着きました！ こうやって見てみると日本人でも無意識に使い分けてる発音が客観的に見れてものすごく面白いですね笑

I love this channel. Dogen you're amazing.

ZERO Japanese language apps teach about rising and falling accents. Whenever I try to ask a JP native speaker about something in Japanese they just constantly tell me the accents are all wrong. We need more teachers like you talking about this.

I'm Japanese, but I didn't know this.

すごく面白い! 今まで気にしたことがなかったけど確かにそこで判断してた。 助詞までで一単語にすると、ラテン語の接尾辞変化みたいだし、そうだったら覚えたくなくなっちゃう🥺

@sushitabeyo

2 жыл бұрын

関西圏ではよく助詞を省略するので若干違いがある気がします 「花＼咲いてたで」と「鼻／怪我してんで」かも…?

I don't know I think this is my favourite video yet, hilarious, you nailed it

I laughed way too hard when he stops, says both just to make sure, and then reaffirms that they are identical. That "はい、同じです" killed me. XD Edit: On a serious note, I don't know where I'd be without these videos. My Japanese studies have been made significantly more comprehensive with the aid of Dogen's pitch accent videos.

I assume it's a little similar to "bat" and "bat". They're pronounced and spelled the same. The context let's you know if they're talking about baseball or the animal.

😂😂😂 I’m in the early stages and I’ve already hit a few of these…. Looks like there will be many more ahead. Love it!!!

Wow.. this is probably one of the single most insightful KZread videos on Japanese I've ever watched, to be honest. I think I'd sorta picked up on this subconsciously, but never actually realized what was going on. I've never heard anybody anywhere else point out that two words can be pronounced exactly the same for the actual word, but actually change the accent for the following particle in different ways! I'd also never really thought about how the pitch accent is different for names than for the "corresponding" non-name form of the word. Again, it's something I think I picked up on sorta automatically but never really registered intellectually. Thank you so much for this! This is definitely going in my "all Japanese learners should watch this" list!

Although I do not speak any Japanese I find these extremely witty and fun.

0:59 After repeating it some times I started to get the hang of it. Some repeats more and I can't tell them apart anymore!😂

助詞の音程で言い分けてるんだ 日本語の勉強になるなーｗ

I really admire your sense of humour in here!!!

なにこれむずっ！

Ironically, I was having the exact same conversation in class the other day, but with chopsticks （はし） and bridges（はし） - will definitely have to share with sensei and classmates! Thank so much for the video!

@FDE-fw1hd

2 жыл бұрын

はし is different because the pitches are different

@GabeWatchesAnime

2 жыл бұрын

Nah, these 2 are more distinguishable. Chopsticks are the up-down sounds, Bridge is just constant same same sound

@OmarLivesUnderSpace

2 жыл бұрын

Would you say, say, tips and ends, that would make sense

@divingradish

2 жыл бұрын

why is it ironic that you coincidentally have real life experience that similar with the topic in this video?

Absolutely love your vids!

HOT DAMN that's some talent, brother! That was really inspiring to watch, like a verbal gymnast

This is why I leave the explanation of English grammar to native Japanese teachers. People never have any idea what is going on in their native language, even if they do all the grammar, pronunciation, etc perfectly.

@KoyasuNoBara

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, yeah, I remember being surprised to learn that English has a specific order for adjectives. I never knew it was a rule, but I know I'd immediately spot it if it was wrong. (For more info, Tom Scott goes into it here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/n4ihk9aDidWbj7A.html)

kiku菊chrysanthemum is the national flower and because it doesn't wilt quickly,is mostly used as offering to honor loved ones who passed away.vibrant,merry colors such as red and pink chrysanthemums or any flower are defo no-nos so avoid giving someone living a bouquet of chrysanthemums .never ever a singular kiku .singular kiku offering is being done for someone who just passed away.mostly in hospitals offering roses to honor the dead is also frowned upon because roses wilt easily and are vibrant and merry in colors there are two types of chrysanthemums.the edible ones.the petals are boiled and squeezed and eaten with soysauce and wasabi.or marinated in vinegar and sugar.the leaves tempura'd

日本人だけど…今まで全く意識すらしてなかった日本語の面白さに気付けた！Dogenさんありがとう💖 日本語のアクセントって標準語ですらややこしいのに、これらに加えて方言まであるんだからカオス😂😂😂

Now THAT is gold.

What about the pitch accent for oyster (kaki) and persimmon (kaki) 😂 My professor had to stop and ask me which one I was referring to when I said I didn’t like “kaki” and I responded with 海の牡蠣 which I don’t wanna keep doing in the future ahaha

As a Spanish speaker, I'm now so grateful we have the glorious tilde (´)

@holliswilliams8426

Жыл бұрын

Although the tilde is used in Spanish language newspapers my experience of social media is that people generally often the tilde and assume you know where the word is stressed ''botellon'' instead of ''botellón'' etc. My friend from Spain writes emails to me and is probably the only person I know who always uses the tilde for every word when writing in Spanish.

Hahaha🤣Your pronunciation is perfect.I hope that everyone enjoys learning the Japanese language.Thank you!

And there goes my dream of learning Japanese

@Ruminations09

2 жыл бұрын

Please don't get too intimidated by things like this! It's honestly not that bad. Japanese pitch accent is nothing like Chinese tones - in Japanese, it's not vital to get the exact correct tone to make sure you're understood. It will improve your pronunciation and make your speech clearer, but it's certainly not a make or break thing. To give an English example, take the word contract (as in "sign a contract") and the word contract (as in "contract a virus"). The actual pronunciation of these two words is nearly identical, the only major difference is where you put the stress. If someone was speaking and used the wrong one, it would sound weird to you and you'd immediately notice the mistake, but it would be difficult for you to properly explain *why* it sounds wrong. But despite that, you would still understand what they meant. Japanese is similar, except instead of the stress determining the difference, it's the pitch that determines the difference. This is why English is considered a stress-accent language and Japanese is considered a pitch-accent language.

@isekaijoucho4812

2 жыл бұрын

Get in bro, just swing it.. You just have to hear japanese speaks more, it will naturally get good

This always gets me, I always fear I must be pronouncing it wrong. Just like kami (as in paper, god and hair)

@GabeWatchesAnime

2 жыл бұрын

God actually has a different sound, only paper and hair sound the same to me

I've had this exact discussion several times. I need to give another try at learning Japanese again.

いつも栄西いんのかなと思いながら見てます！面白いです！

I asked my Catalan teacher about stress pattern once. She had no idea what I was talking about. Speaking the language very well doesn't mean you can teach it well. :/

@muttlanguages3912

2 жыл бұрын

It doesn't have the same super basic rules as spanish?

@junethefirst

2 жыл бұрын

@@muttlanguages3912 Yes, 'stressed' syllables are higher pitched and that's it.

Hi, I am a legit Japanese and I don't f@cking speak my language properly ever in my whole life

自分はどうげんさんと同じ九州に住んでるんだけど、九州は基本的に無アクセント地域だから｢花｣と｢鼻｣とか｢橋｣と｢箸｣を区別できない。標準語のアクセントの区別って言われて初めて｢なるほど…｣って思っちゃう。勉強になります！

After finding your channel a while ago, I went through thousands of Anki cards to add pitch data manually, including the distinction between 尾高 and 平板. Having watched this video, I'm certain it was time well spent.

This is also why kanji is so important 😂

@bizklaustdeity3115

2 жыл бұрын

You cannot verbally express Kanji letters unfortunately 😂

@FDE-fw1hd

2 жыл бұрын

@@bizklaustdeity3115 that's why you have pitch. When you don't have pitch, you have kanji.

@Solace98

2 жыл бұрын

@@FDE-fw1hd then you'll have the problem in the video

@FDE-fw1hd

2 жыл бұрын

@@Solace98 what problem

@omp199

2 жыл бұрын

Kanji are for writing, not speaking, so they aren't anything to do with this video, and they don't help you in face-to-face conversation. But even if we were talking about reading, you get plenty of problems with kanji there. A single kanji might have a large number of readings, and although context often clarifies which reading was intended by the writer, it doesn't always.

日本語についての知識がないと、日本人でも日本語は教えられない。やっぱり外国語を勉強するときは、ネイティブスピーカーよりも先生を頼った方がいいですね。

I am so glad that I can understand Dogen finally. Maybe this one is too simple.

はい、わかりません

what about the difference between じゅういち (number eleven) and ジュウイチ (rufous hawk-cuckoo)

@WillCrawford0

2 жыл бұрын

Or 感心、関心。市立、私立。