When I clicked I thought this was gonna be a marketing-heavy video full of BS about why BMC is better than Chinese brand X.... I was wrong. Very refreshing to watch their honesty. Basically everything they said about Chinese suppliers is correct, including the things they hinted to but didn't say. 🤐 Fair play for the honesty though. The markup from the factory price to them is substantial (~10x) but whether the things they mentioned in the video make up for that is entirely up for the consumer to decide. Good video Cam!

@arthur4466

Жыл бұрын

Could Winspace gave their version about the number of carbon pieces and the use of fiber glass in their frames? (and SLC 3.0 when :D ?)

@greg4318

Жыл бұрын

Enough said………. kzread.info/dash/bejne/h66ex6WucZfOd8Y.html

@waynosfotos

Жыл бұрын

Sorry i don't believe a word. The bikes only come out of a few factories, it is about cost, mass production and lower margins. Many of the part of designs are done in China and patched together to make a individual bike. Lussher teknik has shown the QC sticker and the bike is "not ideal". These bike frames are made for a few hundred dollars, and alway been marked up massively! They can't even make integrated handlebars proper, i.e. the many recalls lately. I agree groupsets have been maked up massively! Which is another rip off. But these responses are just market lip service. Sorry, i need evidence to show me all this poor manufactering has been reversed and gains on bikes are proven.

It is very hard to believe that years of trying to get traction with big brands, then suddenly BMC buys you flights and gives you exclusive content... the pressure from Winspace, Yeoleo and Elves is having an effect and it's because Hambini, you Cam and Peak Torque are saying these bikes are good. The big brands are finally paying attention. Winspace is sold out and no surprise, you can buy three top end Winspace frames for one BMC. Also Winspace does Rimbrake!!! I as the consumer get to choose, so I did, I bought a rimbrake Winspace because BMC doesn't make one. It's a no brainer.

@adambrickley1119

Жыл бұрын

Dont forget trace velo!🚴‍♂️☯️🚴

@adambrickley1119

Жыл бұрын

Winspace rims built up with dyneama spokes would be interesting. Prob still cheaper than a pair of hunt or zips.

@marcvb3364

Жыл бұрын

Fully agree, people finally are realizing that the big brands are way overpriced. Heck, my Trek Emonda has more manufacturing defects than a no name frame from a buddy. It's all marketing.

@cyclistshub

Жыл бұрын

Petr from Cyclists Hub here. You probably never heard of me because I don't do videos, but my website contains a lot of Chinese carbon-related content too. :-) Anyway, I believe it's great for us (consumers) that the market is shifting slowly. I look forward to seeing the cycling industry in the next five years. Hopefully, bikes will become more affordable again and won't be just a "status symbol."

@ChinaCycling

Жыл бұрын

Thanks John. Hope your Winspace brings you many happy miles.

I think I'll be hanging on to my 2015 carbon road bike with rim brakes and 11 speed mechanical for awhile. Maintenance is sooooo easy on it.

@ronb9901

Жыл бұрын

Same here, see my reply above. 👍

I wouldn't say I'm shocked at their response. My last BMC reaming showed design failings and manufacturing quality that was no different to a 500 USD Friday afternoon frame. I can't help but thinking within five years, the Chinese quality brands will gain even more market share and BMC will be forced to rethink their model. Growth will stagnate. I see a lot more Chinese frames on the road now. If you were paying one tenth of the cost and had essentially the same item of the same quality minus a badge which would you get? There will still be the people going after the badge but many will get something else. Once those Chinese brands gain traction and it becomes the norm, they will strengthen their distribution model and it will end up being like the car industry. Kia was once a budget brand with a poor reputation, those days have long gone

@Timo-qb1gf

Жыл бұрын

As long as their supreme leader doesn't screw them up. Already alot of anti-China movement happening in the Industries which are damaging the public's opinion as well.

@ploughmyfield

Жыл бұрын

@Hambini The idea you described above sounds great but I fear it will be just the same as the car industry has proven. As the Chinese carbon bikes (lesser known brand) get better and the brands become more well known they will put the prices up to match the western brands, because they can as people will pay for them. There is already a lot of difference in price within the Chinese carbon industry, and it is the well known brands that we have all heard of that are charging more. It comes down to what people are willing to pay and what "Value" they see in the product they are buying.

With respect, this conversation had very little to do with the price of mainstream bikes per your title. It was an advertisement for BMC. Nice guys who obviously understand the business and their 'secret sauce' which isn't a secret in the industry. All top brands have a Cadel with his sensibilities for feedback and of course Specialized is famous for real time road load data. I am a mechanical engineer who worked in product development my whole career. What has elevated price to the consumer is 'complexity'. If you go back to 2012 or ten years ago when most framesets were BSA and carbon was emerging as viable, the frames were much more simple in design. Compare the Tour de France times of the Lance era to present day. There isn't much between them but the cost has what tripled to the consumer for a top tier racing bike. Why is that? Integration and complexity. Why do manufacturers do that? For marketing exclusivity aka one-up-manship. To what end? To project that a given bike design is better. Is it really? No, in fact it can be worse. In 2012 or 10 years ago most frames of all materials were threaded. The industry did a U turn and bent over their entire consumer base for 10 years trying to get press fit to work. As an engineer, I always knew press fit was garbage due to tolerance sensibility and crank forces always trying to walk press fit bearing cups out of the frame laterally. This is elementary to somebody who went to engineering school. What is the industry doing now? They are returning to BSA and 'marketing it as an improvement' over press fit. Press fit largely came into being for 'marketing' i.e. that a frame was stiffer, bearing bores were more co-axial and there were would lower bearing drag. This was largely rubbish or very little value added relative to the downside of having a design overly sensitive to frame tolerances that would creak like a barn door if all moons didn't align. Marketing something that is better. The list grows. Electric shifting nobody needs. Heavier and more complex hydraulic disc brakes. Integration for what 2 watts saved at 30 mph?...you quoted a $1000 increase for integrated handlebar in frame cost where you can't adjust stem length? How many who watch your channel try to replace hydraulic brake hoses routed through the stem for integration and don't lose a day out of their life for nothing gained? The bike industry has largely gone mad. Go over to David Arthur's channel and observe his wind tunnel tests and find out there is nothing between a round tube TCR and the new flagship, latest aero bikes which don't ride as good because of moment of inertia and frame stiffness that can't match a round tube bike. Specialized even has the balls to re-introduce a 2012 Tarmac in 2022 only with heavier disc brakes and call it an Atheos and charge $14K USD for it. Why would people prefer such a bike to a theoretically more slippery SL7 Tarmac? Ride quality and weight. Marketing. Why all the fuss? Profit. Its the BMW business model. 25 years ago, BMW automobiles had design purity. Were relatively simple, didn't cost as much as a house mortgage and lasted for 20 years with proper care. Now, the complexity of modern BMW's to market advantages has created abysmal reliability. This is BMW's business model. Does BMW make more money selling complex products that break more frequently or simpler machines that break less that don't have to be replaced as often? Pretty easy answer. Now Hybrid automobiles entersthe discussion. Do consumers need automobiles with two power plants? Complete redundancy? Multiple computers to allow an electric motor and internal combustion engine to provide seamless power delivery working together synergistically? Suckers need to spend more for the same performance. Same with what has happened to the bike industry. How many dentists and doctors with less than 200w FTP can afford top tier road bikes in 2022? Lastly, the latest manifestation? Look no further than the new Specialized Diverge with 'future shock' front and rear. No performance cyclist on the planet wants that level of saddle displacement in the rear because it robs pedal stroke efficiency. A complete gimmick for 'marketing' to sell more bicycles to 'suckers'. The public is largely clueless about design and even value. What PT Barnum used to say... In politics and design, when you scratch your head and wonder, that can't be right? Why is that? It is always about who is getting money at the expense of suckers that are paying for it.

@ayowser01

Жыл бұрын

All fair points. Although I'd make an arguement for disc brakes. I prefer their consistency and power over rim.

@Tethysmeer

Жыл бұрын

True. Got a cfr696 which is a brilliant bsa frame. Build your own bikes!

@thetinusnl8834

Жыл бұрын

Awesome reply, thank you for taking the time to write it. Helpful for people who are not into mechanical engineering or economics (like me, with a background purely in computer science). Although the only thing that I would have to disagree on: (hydraulic) disc brakes. I regularly switch between my disc gravel bike and rim road bike. The difference in control is massive, they allow for easy wide tyre setups and without wearing out wheels.

Bike makers need to sell the frames without groupsets to bike shops more. They can then build up the bikes with loads of groupset options from loads of groupset brands. Customers would love the choice of price points, or they can even build up the bikes themselves, learning great mechanic skills in the process.

@richsmith6453

Жыл бұрын

I prefer a frame/fork only. It's pretty much a given you'll swap out saddle, bars, stem, crankset anyway so any cost saving of buying a complete bike goes out the window pretty quick

@RAP4EVERMRC96

Жыл бұрын

Yh companies do that. For example canyon. You can buy the frame only or for a few hundred bucks more get the low tier build. Others follow that example. The stuff on the low tief build is way more expensive than the difference in price to the frame only. So buying frame only is stupid with the current market.

@RB-xv4si

Жыл бұрын

I just built up my own Dogma F with exactly everything I wanted. I sourced everything myself and did things that even a bike shop would likely not accommodate. Difficult but very satisfying.

@natheirabu-dahab1446

Жыл бұрын

@@RAP4EVERMRC96 Where can you find the Canyon frames? I'd be very interested but I can't seem to find them anywhere

@RAP4EVERMRC96

Жыл бұрын

@@natheirabu-dahab1446 well on canyons website. idk if they offer it for all bikes but for ex. for the grizl (gravel) bike they offer the frame as itself.

Hambini might have something to say about all this talk of quality assurance being used to justify the insane prices

@pmcmpc

Жыл бұрын

Especially given that BMC has been joked about for years as "Badly Made Carbon" - and for very good reason. So many build quality issues and a ton of recalls on fork steerers.

We record the serial numbers on each frame, that is why we can upcharge 3000%. Thank you for your purchase.

This is a lot of justification from the sales side. Still does not explain the cost of a frame being as much as an entire motorcycle. I also question the answer to that being it's a volume of production issue. There are a lot of carbon frames being made. I've never ridden a BMC or a Seka. But, is the ride quality really several thousands of dollars better? Is the secret sauce really that much better? My main concern is safety and that's the only thing that keeps me off of Chinese direct is accountability. Then at that point look to TIME frames, not just because Hambini is a fan. But, RTM molding is on another level. I say this from personal experience, not anecdotal. Also, these road frames are costing more than full suspension carbon frames. Talk about engineering, lay-up complexity, extra machining, supply chain complexity, etc...

@Bonky-wonky

Жыл бұрын

The good old motorcycle analogy… yes you can buy a motorcycle for the price of a team level bike frame but that’s comparing apples to oranges. As a bike consumer you could buy the bike Bruni races at the worldcups but you can’t step into your local Yamaha dealer and walk out with Tomac’s bike, which is estimated to cost around 100k.

@fergsc

Жыл бұрын

Yep, they never answered the cost question. Just rattled on about how BMC bikes are better due to "secret sauce".

@built2last409

Жыл бұрын

@@Bonky-wonky Unless I am misunderstanding your point, what you say only reinforces what I am saying. In that these bikes, BMC, Specialized, Trek, Factor, etc. are all available either direct to consumer or at your LBS. They are not one-off hyper-level race machines/F1 avante-garde. These are mass-produced and the valuation should reflect that. Funny (funny peculiar) to be bringing the son of John Tomac into the discussion. I don't see it as apples to oranges because it is not the product in and of itself we are discussing, it is the difference between mass-production and something like F1. Yes, these are top brands, yes accountability has value, but charging almost $3000.00 more for a frameset over a Seka just seems a bit out of whack...

@ronb9901

Жыл бұрын

@@built2last409 exactly right. If the prized Moto Superbike bike was mass produced it wouldn’t cost nearly as much because it would be the norm. My used $1500 VeloVie rim brake mechanical Ultegra build regularly drops multi thousand dollar “boutique” bikes. It’s laughable.

@veganpotterthevegan

Жыл бұрын

Not accounting for inflation, we're getting a lot more bike for $1500 than we were for $1500 in 1990. My first nice Dura Ace road bike would be total trash compared to a new bike with Sora. Bikes over $10k can't even be compared to the heavy bricks we used to ride. My Seven(purchases discounted as a shop employee) would have cost me $10,000 when I got it in 2006. I could built a Dura Ace Di2 Seven for just a little more today. Far less than inflation. That said, I'm waiting for a $4600 Domane I just ordered a week ago. That bike is better than my Seven in every way but impact resistance and for less than half the money 15yrs later. It's also nearly the exact same geometry of my custom geometry

Let's be honest here (which BMC are quite plainly not). The prices are so high for the same reasons that oil companies are posting record profits during a ' raw material cost increase and shortage/supply restriction', PURE GREED.

3 or 4 years ago, there would have been little chance of BMC paying for a relatively small youtuber with limited market penetration to fly over from Australia to do some 'content'. Fast forward to 2022 and we have Peak Torque, Luescher, Trace Velo and Hambini systematically pointing the QA/QC faults in western bikes. The old argument of them being isolated incidents is wearing thin. Everyone now knows that a BMC might as well be a winspace with a different sticker set, their QA/QC has been shown to be less than ideal. They are going to have to change their strategy to compete.

Cam, Campag Chorus, Record and Super Record is still officially 12 speed, rim brake, and mechanical :)

@l.d.t.6327

Жыл бұрын

even better: Campagnolo Chorus mechanical is invariably priced around 1000 euro in Europe, for 5+ years, irregardless of upgrade from 11 to 12 speed. It means products can be improved / renewed without the crazy price increases.

It's a shame shimano are not doing the mechanical 105s anymore. I ride on rough rural roads and like the idea of being able to fix most issues with a basic tool kit.

@flynando

Жыл бұрын

Get a r7000 while you can...

@nigelliam153

Жыл бұрын

@@flynando yeah just in the process of building a new bike looks like it will be my last 105!

Simple answer. They're the price they are because we as a whole keep paying. End of story.

Agreed, just bring back mechanical rim brake. Nothing was wrong with it.

@MrBoggins1234

Жыл бұрын

Should be an option agreed, but few talk about the fact the disc brakes do not necessitate rim replacement/wheel rebuilds as rim brakes do, in my experience , I do 10,000 km per year and I do look after my kit. It's a hidden benefit, especially with carbon wheels imo.

@hugocarvalho1831

Жыл бұрын

I do love it`s simplicity, but regret it every time I get caught out in the rain.

@adambrickley1119

Жыл бұрын

@@MrBoggins1234Years ago i had an mtb rim that was ceramic coated which had none, no grooves at all on the braking area at all.

@gerhardw.933

Жыл бұрын

Remember, until up to 1 year ago, some manufacturers offered the choice of rim or disc brake versions for the same bike. Unfortunately, the disc boys placed most higher end orders with discs that even Giant, the largest, stopped offering the choice of rim brakes. For higher end models rim brakes will never return, even Froome had to come to terms.

@gerhardw.933

Жыл бұрын

@@hugocarvalho1831 Actually, it is proofen that common people ride slower and more careful in the 🌧. I ride with rim brakes on three different bikes and never longed for or missed discs because of 🌧. I use aftermarket brake rubber for my alloy rims, they perform good enough for me even in bad weather...Take care!

Love my BMC but man the prices are getting ridiculous cheers !

I’ve just bought a Roadmachine, got a deal on a 2022 model with 20% discount so I was happy with that, but the price of the 2023 models was somewhere i couldn’t have reached. I would hope this video would be useful for any BMC owner that suffers potential frame issues as they clearly state how they measure every frame, that means there shouldn’t be a bad BMC frame out there 🤔

"Learn the rules like a pro, and break them like an artist."

At the end of the day the price difference is for the most part due to the huge amount of marketing that brands do in the high-end space. For most consumers of bikes at this price level they wouldn’t even be able to notice the performance characteristics of the bike, they just want to be able to regurgitate some specs and marketing spiel to justify dropping $10k on a bike to everyone at the weekend social ride, it won’t make them go any faster. The pharma industry has had a much bigger effect on pro rider performance than any R&D bike manufacturers have put in!

@phimccracken1576

Жыл бұрын

10K 😂😂

I just built up a Winspace Slc 2.0 and the bike is amazing! I was comparing frames from all of the big bike brands and paying 3-4k+ for a frame set alone was getting a bit outrageous. I took a chance on Winspace after watching numerous videos and glad I did. The bike was easy to build up, very well packed, and their customer service was great. I was able to get the frame, integrated handlebar, and 2023 hyper wheels for less than what a big brand frame would cost.

Hi Cam great interview! It's a big effort for them to come out and have a chat to you. I'd be really interested if you were to approach a winspace or Yoeleo and ask about some of the things the bmc guys brought up and see the contrast : -how many pieces do they use to make their upper end frames? -what is their experience with the various types of carbon? -do they have an r and d program, and if so what is it? -do they collect data from world tour, pro continental or other teams? -do they invest back into competitive cycling? Love your work

@glennoc8585

Жыл бұрын

This a point to consider. I had a Shimano dura ace shifter jam after 2 months and I sent it to Shimano in Melbourne and got another back within 48 hours. Outstanding service there but then I bought of wheels ex China with I believe we're Novatec hubs which I believe we're seconds or made for OEM builds. The hub slips from day one and I had no help from the seller or Novatecs head office apart from "Please remove the grease from the ratchet and pawls then apply a small amount of a particular weight grease. That didn't work so I replaced the hub and springs which sort of fixed it before the hub axle disintegrated. Novatecs didn't reply to my emails. I should have stuck to my powerway hubs which have been faultless. I've also had some spoke failures on CN Mac spokes. I haven't dealt with more established Asian manufacturers like Winspace but you are dealing more directly as opposed to component manufacturers. Ive got a set of elite wheels here hope they last.

@eeul

Жыл бұрын

@@glennoc8585 I got a set of elite wheels on my road bike, just the lower end 48mm ones for road. Had a bike shop look at them initially and at 1000k and they are true and solid. Hopefully you get the same but yeah I'd buy them again for 500 aud

What makes them expensive? In order: 1. Marketing money 2. Western Salaries 3. R&D 4. “QC” which Hambini proved is BS Edit: auto spell shenanigans

@RAP4EVERMRC96

Жыл бұрын

Yep I don’t believe them a single word sitting there and talking bs 😅

@shanewiseman5729

Жыл бұрын

Spot on.

@benjaminwolf9801

Жыл бұрын

Facts.

@AugustoRallo

Жыл бұрын

Well, I for one support western salaries and I do believe chinese factories (not only in bicycls, but specially in electronics) are working as hard as they can to sell loss leaders in order to grab a piece of the market, and then just do as the current mainstream manufacturers do.

@Niccodemure

Жыл бұрын

Are 1,2 and 3 not valid though? Would you even be able to get a decent off brand if companies did not spend R&D money first? Should we also take into account how China abuses human rights? I am not attacking your post BTW. I need a new bike, and I am having trouble reconciling all these concerns, and weighing the options myself.

There is no way a 900g carbon fiber can cost 5000$ , it's just not possible no matter what.

Good interview and shows why for mere mortals (like me) that the cheaper bikes are fine but if you live your working life on the bike you may be able to pick the difference.

Fantastic video Cam asking all the right questions that on other cycling channels are asking 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻😍😍

The more I look at the market, the trends, the dollar value steadily rising (did someone say "Oltré"??), the more I am in love with my 2014 Scott Addict. Rim brake, light af, and a joy to ride. I'd love a new Addict RC, or Time Machine, Izalco or S5, but how am I better off on any of those $10K pus bikes than I am on the one hanging on the wall in the garage right now?? Besides which, $10K would go a long way to getting my Datto built and on the road! 😎

@AndrewJamesBowen

Жыл бұрын

That era of bikes was perfect Rim brakes that can do 2x11 + fit 28mm comfortably. Do you need anything more? Electronic shifting just got a lot less appealing given 12 speed + disc brakes is being forced on the consumer

Would love for a big brand to come out with a new direct mount rim brake frameset. Until then, going to stay in the used market or a chinese bike.

@EdMontego

Жыл бұрын

Trek has the "Émonda SL 2023 Frameset" with DirectMount, but i dont like the Color Scheme

@benjaminwolf9801

Жыл бұрын

@@EdMontego $3,800 USD for a frameset is way out of my price range. Though trust me it is definitely on my dream list! Maybe a used emonda 😬

Well done for pushing Cam 💪👌

Thought I was watching David Arthur!

Great video Cam, just makes me want a BMC but I'll be going down the Ebay/ fb market place route.

You didn’t ask the most important question: Why make rim brake options obsolete?

I have not looked at BMC recently, but the new release Specialized Tarmac complete bike with wheels, groupset etc, in the S works level is over $20 k , Bianchi with the new 2023 upgrade to the XR4 , are top level spec are mid $20k. It is getting crazy, because as a rider you want the best , but prices are going crazy. Obviously if frame only prices are around $9k , then obviously the group sets and wheels etc plus obviously the retailer and suppliers mark up, are making up the rest.

@stu3232

Жыл бұрын

And a Yamaha r6 road bike brand new is approx 19k. It’s absurd

Thanks for this. I am looking to trade out my aging Giant TCR as it really was built for racing at the time. I feel as though moving to something that will allow for a greater tire width among other things will be a huge benefit. The less expensive Chinese frames like Elves look great, but it is still hard to put your trust in an "Off brand". Also, I do appreciate that BMC and other support the community, and that does cost money.

@chrisquick7596

Жыл бұрын

You can get the frames tested with ultrasound for any issues and still be paying half the cost of a big brand, also worth adding the big brands have qc issues all the time and fuck people over, just a quick google search will reveal some horrific stories

@Niccodemure

Жыл бұрын

@@chrisquick7596 Yes, I am quickly seeing value in all your points. Thanks

@gerhardw.933

Жыл бұрын

@@chrisquick7596 You can't ultrasonic the quality of the material, only the manufacturing or craftsmanship. And watch you language!

The trickle-down effect seems to have dried up. At 6'4" and 100kg and a basic recreational cyclist, have always put value over bling/marketing hype. Have always been happy with alloy 105 rim brake bikes, in the wet or dry, for the last 20 years. And I want it to be easily serviceable - no rim brakes or tubeless tires thank (have had 2 flats in four years). Last bike purchase was a 1018 Bianchi Impulso off Pushy's for $1,200 here in Aussie - guess it must have been an end of season XL frame they were wanting to get rid of. Guess there's not a lot of profit margin in there for the manufacturers.

@adambrickley1119

Жыл бұрын

Think you meant no disk brakes?

Great understanding of what goes on. I still think the bike industry has pushed it to far for the the normal man and woman Prices are outrageous from manufacturer,supplier, and shop. I know for a fact the mark up on any frame and bike sold is mental. 👍

Just read yesterday that car manufacturer Bentley CEO was super proud that his company doubled profits last year. “The exciting part for me is we’ve doubled the profit year to day, with only 3% increase in sales, and it’s all about quality of margin,” Hallmark said. “It’s all about these higher price cars with more personalization, order bank driven, not stock build driven; and we’ve got the right formula, and we’re going to be ruthless about maintaining that profit.” This level of greed applies to pretty much to every industry where inflation has given carts blanche to pricing.

How cool the COO is an Aussie. All genuine answers too.

Big brands are feeling the pressure from the Chinese brands, and it's a good thing

Love my BMC TE 01. Almost 10 years old now, but now runs on SRAM XX1 AXS. The frame truly is that good.

Hambini did a review on BMC: Would be curious what BMC says about the front drealiur bosses butting up against each other internally that could cause a fracture in the carbon.

@CamNicholls

Жыл бұрын

I did think about asking them Terry, but the frame was not new. Far from it. So there's too many question marks when you don't know the history. Plus, this interview was shot well before that video was published. Cheers,

@Abhitips224

Жыл бұрын

Let’s be real. The quality ain’t great. Bosses don’t move around with history.

@Hambini

Жыл бұрын

@@CamNicholls let's be honest, the touching rivets were clearly from the factory and the bottom bracket is hardly going to get smaller over time.

@Hambini

Жыл бұрын

@@jochem1986 what is the defence to a hole that is outside of tolerance? Answer: an excuse

@daijang1

Жыл бұрын

@@jochem1986 A turd is a turd

i can tell you in many forms of production the use of scales to weigh the item or parts is essential because it can count and tell you information in an absolute method. BMC doesnt want to say this but it is true im sure that they do this.

@CamNicholls

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing Chris. Im pretty sure Mark alluded to this with their onsite resources. Weighing everything to ensure it's within a certain criteria.

“From our suppliers” sums it all up really for me. They do not make the frame sets.. they’re just badged bicycles. So they have a QA? What tolerances do they employ? When does a fail not go to retail? What are those tolerances? He states that they question the factory if they may be slightly heavier or lighter, but does not say that they are pulled and scrapped. It appears that they just send them out, but they were checked…… I actually have a 2021 EmondaSLR 800 carbon. It’s great, it’s light , it’s expensive. I enjoy riding it. (Let me add I’m awaiting the exchange bars to come back in after the recall in June still). I also went and bought a frameset from China for $800AD in May this year. It’s a gravel/ road, great fast geometry rather than relaxed. I run 30mm road tyres and an Ekar GS. It is sensational. I group ride and hang in at 45 to 55kmh with it. I’ve just flicked the tyres now for gravel with a pair of 38s. It’s fantastic. I put it together for under $4kAUS the Trek with Red AXS is a $17500 bike. Does it bring greater satisfaction? Absolutely not. I own a BMW F800R motor bike that was $15k new. The engineering and total amount of components in that machine is probably 10 fold that of any road bicycle. I will leave this with you all. How come a bicycle can be more expensive than a top end BMW moto?

Decathlon has example, i won't even mention chineses ones, can still give us Amazing quality for price, there's no excuses from this guys for their crazy prices! Like many people saying rim bikes are still ok for most people and easy to maintain , no way to follow everything big names are trying to make us go for ... Go for Disc Bike ... Go For Electronic Gears...

@brankododig1585

Жыл бұрын

Decathlon is where it's at. Their upper end is really good in quality, the value is good, and I'm not funding the CCP. You can get a perfectly serviceable road bike with discs starting from something like 600-ish Euro.

He says there needs to be an understanding of the market with the supplier. Then why do they not offer rimbrakes?

I'm just fine with my aluminium bikes that don't have top tier components.

@DietrichStockman

Жыл бұрын

I have a forty years old steel bike pimped up, and I'm totally fine with it! It's a Motobecane, if you want to know.

Question on the guys talking about some bikes having 50 pieces of carbon and 500 pieces. What benefits do that actually give? they said it 'changes the characteristics' but what does that actually mean? just sounds like a lot of sales jargon. I believe the SLR and SLR01 have the same shapes so how does more sheets provide a benefit? Less sheets, less places for potential cracks? More sheets, more room for flex?

Hi Cam, I can understand BMC not wanting to do this interview. To me their response was carefully worded but I can read between the lines. There are some reasons for costs to increase but the primary ones are marketing and big salaries for CEO's. All suppliers particularly the 3 big group set makers are guilty of this. Imo Specialized are the worst among bike makers. If as they claim their QA or QC was good we would not have issues such as we see from Hambini. All the mainstream brands are much the same as has been shown from engineering qualified guys like Peak Torque & Hambini. I will leave it there for now.

Great video very intresting

What about the inability to get the bb hole correct lol

Cam first off i value all your videos but the two gents in BMC arguments about 50 + carbon pieces increasing costs does not hold water take a Honda or Yamaha 125cc four stroke motor scooter each cost approx £ 3000.how many pieces must go into the motor and gear drive and frame hundreds of pieces then take a TVS 125 Hi-torq scooter costing £ 1200 made in India has the same number of components in it but because of lower labour costs TVS can under sell the other manufacturers in the scooter class ,my honest opinion bike makers are raking in big profits end of story ,but a Big thank you for asking the hard questions a big hug mate.

The reason they're so expensive is because they're designed by laser cats. You have the laser upfront cost, cats, cat wranglers, kitty litter, cat snacks, and cat saddles for their relaxation pony show. So it adds up.

We need to learn self control maybe when purchasing items? You don't need the priciest to be the best really I reckon. Nothing is wrong with Claris, Sora & Tiagra & alloy frames & rim brakes.

@draugmithrin

Жыл бұрын

Did an Audax event on Dartmoor on Sunday. Fashionistas would laugh at a lot of the bikes used, steel frames, mudguards etc. But these bikes have probably clocked up more miles than anything in fashion ever will, and will still be going strong when most modern riders bikes are in landfill.

@justittude1524

Жыл бұрын

Please say this louder, many people buy this expensive bikes and yet never fully utilize them, they buy the bike yet they themselves are out of shape and do not work on improving themselves, alot of people think getting a carbon bike will make them faster and fitter. If you do not enjoy climbing, even if you get a carbon bike, you still won't enjoy climbing.

@eeul

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree! Much of the marketing is for features that aren't really that important if you aren't racing. A lot of these features are unhelpful or a hindrance if considering ease of maintenance or a goal of long rides I recently built a full alloy road bike with tiagra as a commuter/audax machine /kid carrier and the most significant decision was the cassette range and getting the ride position at least approximately right. When I looked at braking choices, I chose rim because it's easy to move the caliper if there is brake rub, rim pads last so much longer and I know from personal experience that rim brakes (even for my other bike with cheap carbon wheels) are strong enough to control speedy descents in all but torrential rain. It's definitely easy to get into cycling, not have a specific set of goals as you're new and then have marketing of big brands insist that you must have x expensive thing, or you'll be slower and have a 'worse' bike than the rich guy. I feel for people who have little riding experience, who feel shame because their bike doesn't meet some mythical set of arbitrary standards. I reckon a lot of the sentiment behind pro Chinese product commmenters is that they're tired of this profit oriented marketing crap. Funnily enough, I overtook a guy on an expensive bike going up the bobbin head climb in Sydney, using my alloy frame and it's was probably because I ride quite regularly.

I think it's rather strange that people want their wages to continue to rise but not pay more for the products that pay other people's wages, who also want to be paid more each year.

As a consumer, I couldn't care less about BMC marketing, their high salaries and huge R&D costs resulting in less than marginal gains. The only thing important to me is what my hard earned money go towards. I'd get a hell of a lot more product for my money from a Winspace frame rather than a BMC frame. I am not a fan of burning my money so I know which frame I'd buy next.

I went to Trek, yesterday, looking at mountain bikes. When I saw their price basically being greater than $2500 and up. I was shocked. My 2007 Diamondback Podium 2 will have to do.

What I don't get, the R&D is always this vague "reason" for a high price. So let's say that's okay for the FIRST iteration of a frame. In some cases, these frames haven't changed other than paint or decals, so now what? The same frame from 2019 is still on the rise, and nothing has changed other than the paint. Then when they finally make a new frame, the price goes up AGAIN, now to the price of a car. I really think that this big brands hit a new price limit to test the waters, and once one does it, then another does it, then another, and next thing you know, the par for a bike frame price is 5 or 6 grand. It's a bike, seriously no one on this planet can feel these "subtle" changes that warrant those prices. So what's really messed up to think about, the large Chinese frame makers are charging 25% of the price, or less in many cases, for better/same quality frames, and they are STILL making a hefty profit. These frames are nowhere near worth the money being charged by the big names.

Great idea for a video. I do have some reservations regards to how much of this is truthful however, it does not justify how expensive the frame is in the 1st place. Interesting would be how Hambini would rate this content also as he recently demonstrated very poor build quality from BMC.

I’d never pay the kind of money these guys are asking. I built up a used generic brand carbon frame, rim brake for about $1500.00 and it regularly drops multi $k’s bikes no problem. When you’re off the back brand names are irrelevant!

I’ve been shopping for a new Tri bike recently and saw that the Trek Speed Concept runs up to 19k Aud. That’s nearly 20 grand?! I looked up the price of a new Yamaha R6 road bike out of interest for comparison... also 19k. Somethings not right lol.

Thanks for putting this together Cam, interesting to hear. But I just don't buy it. R&D costs and quality control, referred to as the principal reasons for both the high costs and the distinguished characteristics of the products, are part and parcel of the business - as they are for any manufacturing.

@littleduckschildcare120

Жыл бұрын

A Bmw motorbike costs less It doesn’t make sense.

so whats up with price anyways? they didnt answer

If I am gonna spend that much on a frame it will be a Look or Time. Period.

@miivii

Жыл бұрын

The same. 1. Time 2. Look or 3T

What's going on with the price of today's bicycles? Well that answer isn't that hard! The bicycle industry has gone completely nuts. They only think of one thing and that is money. And two employees of a BMC are really not going to tell you why this is happening. And the number of defects in the current models across all brands says it all , they are playing with people 's lives . I have owned the last model Canyon Aeroad. and I am very happy that I was able to sell it after all the repair work. in fact I took it there for the handlebars and seatpost and then got a completely new frame because they discovered an internal problem with the carbon. Only thing I was told it wasn't because of me. well my confidence in Canyon was at 0.0%. I now only ride classic steel bicycles. a bicycle the way a bicycle should be.

Everything is becoming a fashion trend and unfortunately I think we are pressured to try and have the best so we aren’t looked down on by others. Mechanical group set all the way for me I will never have electronic

My BMC has been great. Same price point as other brands. Not that a lesser known brand is a bad thing, but you know what you are getting with a BMC, Specialized, Canyon, etc. Just like medicine in which a few countries do most of the R&D there are a few innovative bike brands. It just costs money to innovate.

Why don’t the big brands have their own factories to produce their frames? Seems like they do all the design and development in house but subcontract the manufacturing. Wouldn’t they have more control if they kept manufacturing in house.

tell bmc they need to offer weepholes that are open/closable on any electronics cases/enclousers. and the use of oil fill ports and semi-oil-bath tech, and fill and drain(to clean) tech for electronic motors is just the way to go; the alternative being using heavy greses and relying on gaskets which always fail. for e bike used in rainy conditions this simply has to be the protocol.. and it works great, i use this method on my ebike. Rim brake technology is better technology than dic brakes for over 90% of riding. bicycles weigh more, have more rotational weight and there other reasons why disc brakes are a pain.. BMC should offer austraila and regular cyclists something more practical And more performance oriented than heavy and particular disc brakes. I have a nice bike but still,, i dont want to be messing with a large toolkit and touchy routines.

Did you ask them about the sales performance of BMC bikes in Australia and their thoughts on Advanced Traders?

Bingo! Groupset makers seem to be the primary villains in the price increases we're seeing. That's why I'm not buying new and not buying the latest groupsets. Give me 9 or 10-speed Ultegra or Dura-Ace, rim brakes, and external cabling over the high-strung stuff, overly finicky 11 and 12-speed, fully integrated, hydraulic disc stuff all the bike makers (and most KZreadrs) are pushing today. It worked great when it was leading edge, and it works great today. Next gripe: carbon wheels.

@colostomybag9367

Жыл бұрын

honestly r7000 105 is great. Yeah its heavier but it works just as good. just a bit heavier. A carbon frame from china with no quality control or post manufacturing tests is not worth 4000 bucks. its just not. ever carbon fiber componet that goes on a plane is examined and ultrasonically tested for compaction and voids. these gucci brand bikes are not. your paying for a name, not quality. I ride a winsapce slc 2.0 with shimano 9100 c24s and it is just as good as most 12,000 dollar bikes. Just get strogger it doesnt matter. Pros dont like disks. I dont like disks, nobody does exept rich people and bike makers.

@Doggepp

Жыл бұрын

I am not that into road-cycling, so I am not a 100% sure what the prices are of road groupsets, but on the XC-side of things, you can buy one of the online-only brands for an insane ammount less than the "big name" brands. My YT XC/downcountry bike has pretty much everything one could want. The "best" sram groupset, most expensive xc rockshox suspension, carbon wheels etc - And that bike costs about half of what a trek/scott/specialized/cannondale bike costs (Mine was about $7500 vs about $14k for the big name ones - And it even has some things those bikes dont have). The markup on the most high end XC bikes are insane, not sure its the same on the road side. I could actually buy a scott frameset with fork/shocks installed + my bike, take all the stuff from my bike, put it onto the scott, and it would be cheaper than buying one directly from scott. And then I could prob sell the shock+fork for $1500-2000

@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed

Жыл бұрын

Harley , are you playing guess who I am ?

@ayowser01

Жыл бұрын

@@colostomybag9367 🙋🏻‍♂️I prefer disc to rim. Unlike most people, or so it would seem, I don't have any issues.

@PeterEssex

Жыл бұрын

@@colostomybag9367 I like discs. For the riding I do, I prefer them. I ride exclusively on the road and I do a lot of long, steep, often wet climbs and descents that usually include hard braking. I like the power, modulation and consistency of braking I get from hydraulic discs. I'm not a rich person and I don't care if disc brakes are a bit heavier and less aero. I also think I'm not the only one who thinks this way. If rim brakes work for you, that's great but not everyone's the same.

Giant has always been a safe middle ground.

Bikes always costed too much anyway, (well before Covid) obviosly cots of marketing, transport, materials, but we all know thta profit margin is huge anyway. Its all good, but tolerances are shitty.

Great content as always Cam! Great to see what actually goes into building a high end carbon frame. I think most people (including myself) have no idea how complex these production structures actually are

When my bike cost more than my high performance jet ski then things are going stupid

If you think bikes are overpriced out there it's because you didn't look for the prices in Brazil. Entry level bikes here - and when I say entry level bikes don't expect something like carbon frame and Shimano 105, I mean it's an alloy frame with Shimano Claris or even Tourney, pretty close to Walmart bikes - are almost $5000. If you're looking for a top spec bike from brands like BMC, Scott, Trek or Specialized you're gonna pay money enough to buy a house. Those chinese carbon bikes comes to us costing something between $6000 and $11000, I bought one myself with nice specs for the price of entry level bikes here and I'm really enjoying it.

Tikka masala example, gold 🎉

Mechanical Ultegra all way ❤🤩🚴🏅👏

@Niccodemure

Жыл бұрын

Running my 2004 Ultegra with ya

Shame it was lacking in hard numbers. Good job though.

Would be interested in what their factories in Vietnam are for

@lloydusdavies

Жыл бұрын

I purchased a BMX bike frame from WiaWis and that frame was made in Vietnam

@CamNicholls

Жыл бұрын

Yes it's a good Q. There were only so many levels I was allowed to go! I was actually surprised they went to that level tbh.

@nguyenho9591

Жыл бұрын

@@lloydusdavies Really? I didn’t know that? I am from Vietnam and the most I have been taught is that we only make fashion products like Nike. But carbon bikes?

@cup_and_cone

Жыл бұрын

Probably a final export hub to bypass tariffs.

@PeakTorque

Жыл бұрын

@@nguyenho9591 many CF factories have expanded from China to Vietnam, and even Myanmar.

Good try Cam 👍 But what they actually said if we are all comprehending correctly ?!? Is the reason BMC , Trek , Specialized and a few other are SO expensive Marketing, little more RnD and some 'policeman' checking the Chinese factory's they use are hopefully keeping a certain level of ' quality ' !!! Remember if the quality of manufacture goes down to save labour costs at those unknown carbon factory the unknown factory don't really care its not damaging them , sure they may loose the contract if it gets out of hand, but they will probably get a contract from another brand and say the have fixed there processing ! Sorry the brand s from USA and Europe have just flipped , for the average waged man and woman in the street we can no longer buy this stuff , to those who can afford good for you drink up large but my gut feeling is your are getting ripped off !

Not that many carbon frame Manufacturers, only a few in Taiwan doing OEM for most western brands. NOT HUNDREDS

Two BMC executives dream up a fairy tale of justifications, FTFY :p

When people stop buying the market will correct. Same with cars in the US. People's perception costs them tons of money, I built my son a road bike using a Taiwan made 7005 al frame branded as Scott, Carbon front fork and dressed with ultegra. Total build less than 1800..... if the frame was draped where you couldn't see it I'd bet a million dollars that very few if anybody here could tell it was metal.

Should have asked them what they think about Hambini.

@CamNicholls

Жыл бұрын

I have. It’s a discontinued model with no evidence of history. It’s second hand at best. So what can they say. They can’t pull a new one off the shelf and assess unfortunately

that's the main lie, all frames / suppliers are different. They are not, they all come from a handful of factories in Taiwan. These companies aren't stupid (or maybe they are) they use the same platform / factories for all their bikes like the automotive industry.

They sell at the prices they do because there are enough mugs with fat wallets who swallow the kool aid and spend their monies. At the end of the day these guys are just middle men, people now have the knowledge to cut the middle men out and get direct to consumer prices.

To summarise, "our frames cost so much because we over-engineer them in order to justify the price hikes, and also component companies have followed suit"

Sounds like old mate is trying to say the suppliers BMC use in China and Vietnam use different Mitsubishi and toray fiberes to all the other frame factories in China and Vietnam, which is a reason to the high cost 🤣 the mainstream bike industry if off its head, but they know people will continue pay the current prices.

It says a lot when you can buy a new car for around the same price as a new bike 😮

Recently got a new bike and now am not planning to buy another for at least 5 years! Somebody screenshot this 🤣

Yes! Bring back rim brakes, thank you

Simple explanation: They need to charge at least the same amount as a 5 km bus trip in Switzerland or it wouldn't make sense...

@CamNicholls

Жыл бұрын

😂 very good

They can say all they want... i payed for my complete 650cc MOTORCYCLE 6000$ brand new!

It seems to me that rode bikes are going down the same road as motorcycle super sports and superbikes, overpricing the class into extinction.

The real reason the western brands are not getting frames and parts is, the Chinese manufacturers are making more money selling cheap frames and bike parts to bike dealers. The western brands are getting left out because they are not paying enough and getting out bid.😝

@renegadeflyer2

Жыл бұрын

And why build more bikes when they can make more by changing alot more, but selling less

I dont see the part where they’re owned by private equity and need to maintain 5000% margin.

@CamNicholls

Жыл бұрын

Probably because they’re not owned by private equity. Family business. Andy Rihs

Bike frames and parts dont have micron level tolerances so theres no way theyre priced that way because of R&D. You can clearly see that those 2 guys are lying and just hyping bmc with their big words. The major reason of price hikes are profit, marketing and executives bonuses and salary increase.

gouging plan and simple thats all it is

A whole lot of nothing here. I just started my own bike brand. My cost for a UCI-approved full T1000 carbon frame from a specific manufacturer mentioned on this channel in the past is 510 USD. That is for an order quantity of only 5. These brands can say that they are doing tons of QA and helping push the sport, but the reality is, they are bloated and just need more profit dollars. Completely understandable, but the bike industry has turned into a marketing machine.

I want to work for BMC 🥺

BMC should hire Hambini as head of QA 😁