To respond to your comments on leg defense within European sources, leg voids are actually very common, especially in earlier sources! It is so common in some sources -- like Johannes Lecküchner, for example -- that voiding the leg + counterattack is sometimes the only lower body defense described. Other sources (especially late period sources) advocate for a more traditional parry riposte, and still others advocate for a leg void *and* a simultaneous parry, for maximum safety (Roworth, for example) Also, while they are by no means common, I know of at least one source from Europe that shows leg lifts explicitly, that being Joachim Meyer (in his rappier section, I think)

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

Great, thanks for letting me know. Would not have known without you telling me

@frankheninja1

Жыл бұрын

I study the backsword of Thomas Page, and leg voids or “slips” are the primary form of defending most attacks. A leg slip paired with an inside or outside parry is an exceptionally safe way to defend yourself.

When compared to the large body of illustrations, it just looks like the common leg depiction of stepping forward for Lunge & Kill Posture. Many "official" versions of these forms are quite...creative

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

Yes, some I have seen are very creative

You’re #2 reason is correct. Don’t ignore it as an option. Its most effective when you’re distancing is perfected (making it much safer .. maybe even better than parrying). #3 is also correct. That same technique is often seen (although not formally) in western fencing. Foil and saber stomps a LOT in the final action. And have you noticed that early forms of Japanese baseball players, they lift a leg to drive more power to the bat. Very interesting discussion. I like your channel.

I see similar patterns of misunderstood techniques in other martial arts forms, like Karate and Tae-kwondo. Happy new year man!

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

Indeed. It's easy to have a game of chinese whispers as techniques get passed on. Happy new year to you too!

When i trained kung fu (specially jian and guan dao forms) i always interpreted the leg lifts as a way to shorten the distance quickly(like a superman-punch) or retreating by putting the weight on your back leg(giving the option to either put your foot in front again or fully stepping back). Hope i managed to explain, english is not my main language and its like 3AM where i live(so sorry for any typo). Keep the good work my friend!

I think leg movements of this type where one foot is planted and the other moves really need to be put into two categories. The first are slips. The leg goes back rather than up. Trying to dodge a low cut by lifting a leg up is going to be a disaster most of the time so this is a better choice defensively. It’s important to note that a slip will buy parrying time at the expense of the riposte speed even against high line targets depending on the accompanying bodyweight shift. Then there is the leg lifting thing where it’s straight up and not really designed to move you anywhere in a single tempo. Honestly I think unless you are using it to prep a giant lunge where you want some broken time as part of the action, it’s not a great option in general. Highly telegraphic, puts you in a situation where movement options are limited and makes the front knee the nearest target relatively close to the right angle from the shoulder and therefore really easily attacked.

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

I think that's a good way to categorise the leg movements. That being said, for the topic of the video I wouldn't say a slip looks anything like the leg lifts you see in asian martial arts. A very effective manoeuvre and probably one that was seen as too obvious for the old masters to bother putting into a form, being the way old chinese/vassal states of China masters were like For leg lifts, I think your points hold true for unarmoured duelling like blossfechten but I often wonder whether there was a value to leg lifts for added power in asian armoured fighting. We see stomps in Japanese swordsmanship and I wonder if these leg lifts are the lift part of the stomp that's been recorded and passed down in a game of chinese whispers. I've found lifting the leg about 10cm off the ground and forcefully putting it back down in a stomp adds a lot of power to my cuts in test cutting on hard targets like thick bamboo and metal and its not that big of a movement to make in combat. It certainly doesn't bring the leg high enough to make it an easy target like some of the chinese sword leg lifts that we see nowadays. A stomp to add power could be used to break a neck through the flaps of the helmet neck protection in ming/joseon dynasty helmets and brigandine armour where the metal plates would render the cutting ineffective. We don't really have pommels to bash the opponents with unlike with European swords. All in all, I still struggle to fully understand leg lifts but they're there in the manuals and I wish the old masters would have written in plain text why they put them there. These are some of my theories and the reasons I've been told

1:08. maybe not. for instance, a European manuscript details a technique in which you unscrew the pommel off of your sword, and then throw it at your foe.

If your leg is in the air when you strike you have the first strike option to stand on their foot or step down on top of their foot. So I strike and have my leg in the air if they close the distance between us I step on their foot if possible. Once my foot is standing on top of their foot they have little options against me. As for more power the leg in the air allows me to twist my entire body into a stance of my choosing. Tradional Plow-OX- HEMA stances can be done from one leg in the air to snap into the form of choice and then strike parry ect. Thank you for posting.

That very good explanation, I agree with them. 1 definitely a misinterpretation. Most martial arts have lost its true meaning of technics 2most probably to remove a target. You can block or deflect but not being there is the best option 3 adding weight it reasonable. A slide would work as well. I’ve mentioned before, with a curve sword muscle power and body weight which ant necessary is technical skills are good. 4 it won’t stop the spin, as you said your best to put your foot down. If it doesn’t work in your sparing it’s probably not an effect move.

Consider this video on Miaodao swordsmanship: kzread.info/dash/bejne/i4F1yLlrm7CpqdY.html In it, he mentions that the purpose of leg lifts is to signify a chasing/lunging step. I find this to be highly likely myself, though it depends on the context of the technique. Most parry-with-leg-lift techniques though appear to make sense as parry-and-lunge in, both to add more weight to the attack and to hit the opponent even if they try to retreat following the parry.

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

If it's to signify a chasing or lunging step, I personally am of the opinion that they should just practise that move instead of just lifting the leg

@DarkwarriorJ

Жыл бұрын

@@JustaBug I agree if this is in the context of forms practice, but I think that guy meant it in terms of reinterpreting the forms or any manuals. It might also hint at the form of chasing/lunging steps to be practiced. That said, I haven't seen the leg-lift = chasing step assertion elsewhere; it's just that the guy in that video looks like he knows what he's doing.

Definitely not rubbish! The lead-leg "crane" I've tended to see as an exaggerated "slip" to void the lead leg, or, also yes, potentially to add extra momentum to an attack, similar to how raising and chambering the rear knee can add reach and momentum to a thrust or tip cut. Also, a number of HEMA styles advocate not using your weapon to protect your legs, but slipping and simultaneously counter-cutting to take advantage of your opponent's potential over-extension, so that might be the strategy here? Unarmed, I've seen styles that use it as exaggerated loading (for both straight and rotational techniques), but it's also often used practically (and frequently) to check kicks to the lower body. So here's a wild idea: If the warrior was wearing greaves (shin and knee armor) he might be protecting himself from a cut or thrust to the thigh? Or perhaps this is a technique against a sweeping or low thrusting action from a polearm? Or simply instilling a habit to keep your legs from being easy targets? Definitely let us know about any further results in pressure testing!

This is a great discussion! Awesome points all around. One other possible line of inquiry which might be fun would be what I call “show forms”. I suspect some of the reason that outsiders are confused by leg lifts in Asian swordsmanship is the influence of institutions such as Chinese opera, which requires exaggerated motions to be seen be an audience from a good distance back from stage. How much of this legacy has filtered into modern wushu and wuxia? I don’t know, but it would be a fascinating topic to review :)

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

Yes, show forms are another thing. I'm writing a book and I mention show forms for the last two forms of jedok geom

I don’t think I’ve ever parried a leg cut outside of a drill. I did go through a period of trying them but the movement is just far too vulnerable to feints because of its amplitude.

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

I agree with that but there's always the "what if" where you're backed against a wall and can't step back. In actual full speed sparring I don't think I've ever parried a leg cut either

Can you show footage of spinning in sparring?

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

I have barely done any successful spins in sparring. In duels I wouldn't recommend it, only in battlefield use and I haven't been able to simulate it well

@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699

Жыл бұрын

@@JustaBug unless you’re using a greatsword-type weapon like a nodachi and can’t stop its momentum with just your arms, I don’t see how spinning would help in a battlefield situation. Do the Jedok Geom manuals give context for when they are to be used?

@JustaBug

Жыл бұрын

@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 the jedok geom is a nodachi length sword. It's got a blade length of 100cm and handle 36cm. It doesn't say clearly when to use it but from context it appears to be when advancing into a horde of enemies to keep them all at bay and not give them much time facing your back and you spin in alternating directions