Then as Sauron moved his strategic reserves out of Mordor to cement the victory at Minas Tirith and guard the flanks of his northwestern front, suddenly a rumble was heard from Mount Doom, and the Nazgul cried out at the dismay of their master because still unseen and overlooked were the small figures of tiny Hobbits who dropped Gollum into the fiery lake, unmaking the one ring and destroying the will and unity of the forces of the enemy as Sauron vaporized into a towering pillow of fluff, large and menacing in his impotent rage as what remained of his powerless shade was gathered and blown away by a wind from the West, then wafted away to the outer void only to fall under the mocking gaze of his equally failed master of old, Morgoth, and the gigantic spidery head of Ungoliant, who had devoured herself in her utmost famine but still sought to chew on everything that moved.

@shastasilverchairsg

4 жыл бұрын

Meanwhile, deep inside his snug warm bed by the fireplace, Lotho Sackville-Baggins suddenly awoke. All his main competitors were gone. Now was finally the time to put his plans into motion, and to reveal his true identity as Lotho Cotumo, the One who corrupted Melkor in the beginning, and the One who would finally bring all of Arda under his dominion.

@AeneasGemini

4 жыл бұрын

I mean it's unlikely, the hobbits could only get through because Sauron's forces were heavily distracted

@dagothur2666

3 жыл бұрын

@@AeneasGemini True, but hobbits are unpredictable, smart, and crafty beings like Tolkien said in the Hobbit. They are great at hiding from us big folk.

@dagothur2666

3 жыл бұрын

I love this outcome a little more. Gandalf might survive with Pippin and the Gondorian People in the Final Tier for a little longer maybe fled into the great hall or something, where Frodo and Sam destroy the ring saving them. Maybe a few people of like Aragon, Glimi, and Legolas survive by fortifying their position at the harbor.

@MsNosis

3 жыл бұрын

exactly! Pelennor fields were just pointless, the only thing that mattered was the destruction of the ring. I too think the book would be MUCH better if Sauron won at Pelennor fields,if Minas Tirith fell and many heroes were lost with much sorrow and grief, yet in this the darkest of hours the world were saved by the heroics by two humble hobbits, assissted unintentionally by the third "hero", Gollum.

The crucial point at the battle was when the forces of Mordor failed to stop rohirrim from entering to the Pelennor, so I would go with that. What if - the riders are stopped at the outer wall and the besiegers take the city through the broken gate. When Aragorn arrives, he sees that the city is lost. His troops join forces with rohirrim and they retreat to Lebennin. They would quickly have to find a way to attack and retake the city. This might still be possible, and they might still cause enough distraction to allow Frodo to complete his task.

@muz9663

2 жыл бұрын

In all honestly, it is unlikely Minas Tirith would be retaken, it's fortifications are unmatchable and even taken the city means that the rammas echor would have had to been retaken too. Not to mention Gondor would have lost another 3000+ soldiers in Minas Tirith if it were lost. No way Aragorn would think of retaking it

@Trigm

2 жыл бұрын

To be fair, how are the Rohirim getting out of this? Stuck between the army in Anorien and the army in the Pelenor, they are doomed. They can't even link up with Aragorn, as "all the hosts of Modor lie between" in Eomer's words. Aragorn can maybe retreat to Pelargir, but that is about it.

@TheLumberjack1987

2 жыл бұрын

at the end of the day it was Aragorn and his undead army which saved the day no? The Rohirim were awesome and all but they got pummeled pretty badly by the olifant riders.

@Trigm

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheLumberjack1987 What are you talking about, the movie? The Oathbreakers never fight at all, (their only weapon is terror) and they are only in a battle at Pelargir. The Rohirrim were the big turning point. Without them breaking the siege on the gate the forces from the city could not get out, and the Witch-King would likely still be alive. (depending on if Gandalf got to him) Aragorn arrival with the folk of Lebinnin saved the Rohirrim for encirclement, but that could have been prevented if Eomer hadn't gone Berserker and actually checked Eowyn's pulse.

@TheLumberjack1987

2 жыл бұрын

@@Trigm I'm sorry I'm talking about the movies.

what if the witch king didn't become overconfident and sally out of Fornost to face the Gondorian and Elven forces.

@Kilo_Alpha_Delta

4 жыл бұрын

Alternatively, what if Arnor ultimately defeated Angmar?

@MasterBombadillo

4 жыл бұрын

@@Kilo_Alpha_Delta If it really was "ultimately", Arnor would still be an unpopulated wilderness. By the end of the war, only Fornost was left as a noteworthy population, the rest of Eriador had already fled the war by this time.

@realworldforum

4 жыл бұрын

@@MasterBombadillo well between the war of the ring and the fall of arnor a thousand years. Surely they could repopulate.

All 4 major Elven realms would have done something, thousands of Elven soldiers would have been sent to Rohan, Elves from Lindon possibly to aid Gondor. Sauron had the numbers but remember he needed 3 or 4 times as many Orcs for everything 1 man, especially when attacking well built and fortified cities in Gondor. It wouldn't have been a walk in the park for Sauron. He might have defeated Rohan but to take on the rest of Gondor and the Elves would have been difficult for him.

@vinz4066

3 жыл бұрын

And dont forget the dwarfs

@Trigm

2 жыл бұрын

Do note that the Woodland realm and Lorien were both fighting other forces at this point. Rohan had sent basically everything and didn't really have a fortress to defend, (sorry Dunharrow) the Dwarves and Dale were besieged in Erebor, and Rivendell and Lindon both were unlikely to have any large military force worth speaking of. (Esp considering Rivendell was basically a large house or small village.) The rest of Gondor might be hard, considering the corsairs were out for a bit, (assuming the ships get burned at the Harlond) but there wasn't too much Gondor can do. The highest leader is whoever of Imrahil's sons (or Lothiriel) is left, and the only strong points are Pelargir and Dol Amroth, neither of which appears to be on the same scale as Minas Tirith, and don't have the preparation or rearline areas behind them. In short, they fall faster and with nowhere to go. Also, Gondor's army, while still potent, has lost most of its regular troops, and appears likely to only have 4-8 thousand left, against 10s of thousands of attacking orcs+Haradrim+Corsiars. There is not really any strong resistance to give. Dale and the Dwarves have bigger (well, closer) fish to fry, the Woodland Realm and Lorien just won, but would be exhausted, the woodmen/Beornings don't appear to be very numerous, the other Elves, Dunedain, and hobbits of Eriador can *maybe* bareley get an army between them, and Rohan and Gondor have been neutered to the point of impotence. Even the Ents, the most formidable force left unengaged, aren't really field troops, and when you need the Ents to fight for you, you are in trouble.

@n4mel3ssw0lf8

Жыл бұрын

@@Trigm Lindon wasn’t

@user-cj9jk1pd4g

Жыл бұрын

@@n4mel3ssw0lf8 Even with Elven speed, their footsoldiers would take months to arrive. By the time they do, Sauron would've fortified the surroundings of Minas Tirith, making retaking the city a fool's errand. And in the north, Easterlings would have had victory over the men and dwarves, adding more to Mordor's power. Here's the thing about elves. They are strong, but few. They can't be everywhere. Once Minas Tirith is broken, Sauron can attack wherever he wished along the vast shorelines of Middle Earth, or push west through Gondor or Rohan, or attack Lorien, or strike through the Misty mountains at Rivendell; the frontline is simply too long. And without the leadership of capable men, Gondor cannot mobilize more men quickly enough to fill in this frontline, and a lack of Rohan cavalry would've significantly reduced any hope of a mobile defense. So, they're fucked from a military standpoint...

@BernddasBrotB7

12 күн бұрын

Lindon is very strong, but needs time to mobilise and Cirdan isn't much of wartime leader. Rivendell is militarily irrelevant (even with a full levy, they'd not muster more than a couple of hundred) but has the leadership to cover Lindon's weakness. Dol Guldur was exhausted, so Lothlorien is feed up, but Thranduil has enemies on his border. Likely Galadriel at this point would turn to shoring him up and trying to relieve Erebor while Sauron is trying to finish off Rohan (which wouldn't be a quick process with their semi-nomadic lifestyle and the northern hills of the Wold to retreat into). At this point, her best play is to buy time for Lindon's aforementioned armament and freeing up dwarfpower from Erebor is a good starting point. Additionally, as long as Erebor stands there's a good incentive for the Dwarves of the Orocarni to march west, either adding to the Blue Wizard's efforts (if they aren't already doing that) or else bolstering their kin. Plus there's still the hope the ring will be destroyed. As for Dorwinion, that really depends on if you think they count as an 'Elven realm', or are Mannish, or somewhere in the middle. Either way, they seem to be staying neutral and Sauron probably wouldn't provoke an unneeded front as keeping trade open would be useful for now. Likely he'd eventually want to make them into a tributary through intimidation.

If this were to happen, it would be the Responsibility of the Valar to intervene again. Especially since Sauron would force the free people's to worship him or morgoth as a god. It goes against what Eru Iluvitar intended for the world. Heck if nessacary and to prove a point I would talk to the elves and try send a vast fleet of refugees west. I know they would likely all die but it might Iluvitar himself's attention given what he did to Numenor.

@shastasilverchairsg

4 жыл бұрын

The Valar (or Eru) would probably cause a giant earthquake or eruption in Mordor, completely obliterating everything there and half of Gondor as well, destroying Sauron's armies and physical form and pretty much resetting everything back to the Second Age after the downfall of Numenor to give Men another chance at beating him.

@michaelc3441

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly the wars of the Third Age are so toned down compared to the events of the First that it probably wouldn't even take a sizable intervention from the Valar to completely turn the tides in favor of the Free Peoples

@Historyfan476AD

3 жыл бұрын

Nah they send Gandalf back again this with more power.

@PiotrDurrandir

2 жыл бұрын

@@Historyfan476AD Gandalf (as was for the rest of Istari) mission was to council and help, not to face off Sauron. If such was the case - then 5 Mayars at full strenght (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and Blue Wizards) would trash Sauron and his armies. But I think fallout would be that eveything north or south of Ered Nimrais would be a sea basin [depends if 5 Mayars would land in Pelagir or Mithlond]...

@Historyfan476AD

2 жыл бұрын

@@PiotrDurrandir Pretty much that would happen. Funny to think that LOTR can have such power scaling.

These 'alternate events' videos of LOTR are really interesting, because it truly highlights what COULD have gone wrong if our heroes were not victorious and how important their actions were to not just the story, but to the free people of Middle Earth.

I was looking for something like this. NOT a lot of videos out there which do what this one does. Thanks for the logical, well-thought-out and DETAILED conjecture about what might have happened if things had gone the other way.

By far my new favorite Middle Earth content poster. Keep it up!

Another detail story of my all time fave. Movie the LOTR trilogy. 😍

I've been watching your eariler videos over and over. Thank you I love your content

I don't think Erkenbrand would've tried to defend Edoras. Most likely he would've used Dunharrow for his last stand.

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Good thinking. I never actually considered Dunharrow.

@Trigm

2 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT To be fair, it doesn't add too much. Yes it is a massive wall of rock with a small ramp, but it isn't made as a fort. There isn't any true defensive works, little shelter or storage areas, etc. The biggest thing it adds is the possibility of a retreat or supply line through the Paths of the dead, which would be tenuous at best, given Gondor would have its own problems.

I love your content, we need more Tolkien KZreadrs.

Enjoyed the video keep up the good work!

Keep doing the vids! Great content

yes! keep making more of alternate stories content! maybe try one on what if moria had never awoken the balrog and dwarves still dwelt there during the war of the ring

Do a what if (race or faction)turned evil of corrupt and vice versa. Also more specific a cool idea would be what if the harradrim,isengaurd or easterlings rebelled against sauron. Maybe even certain caracters like Gandalf or Aragorn turning evil. Love your channel as it covers mostly statistic and scenarios which are my favourite subjects.

KZread needs more content like this

What if Arnor had not fallen to the Witch King and existed during the late 3rd age and the War of the Ring? Would we see something closer to the Last Alliance, where the Free Peoples had comparable might of arms to Sauron? Would this type of resistance work twice? If it did would we see history repeat in it’s entirety, with another man failing to destroy the Ring?

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

A "what if Arnor survived until the War of the Ring" video will almost certainly happen so stay tuned!

@anthonygonzalez2897

4 жыл бұрын

Darth Gandalf awesome!!

I really liked this please do it again

Hey man, thanks for all your videos. I've just watched a video by History of Middle-Earth about the battle of Dale in the war of the rings which made me realise how amazing your content is. They just wanted to tell me that there were 200.000 Easterlings, 100.000 dwarves and 50.000 men at the battle, numbers they just took from some online sources. In contrast your videos are well structured, interesting and informative. And of course you know the stuff you're talking about. While I personally think, that you overestimated Sauron's armies a little bit, I have nothing but respect for your amazing research , that is the foundation of your videos. Again thank you very much for your content and keep up the good work. Greetings from Ravensburg, Germany

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

I actually haven't really watched any of History of Middle-earth's videos, but if they're throwing around numbers like that then I might take a look. And thanks for your support - it means a lot to me.

@MasterBombadillo

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, they are throwing out videos like crazy. I suspected them of using wiki pages in order to do that, but since that video about the Battle of Dale I'm absolutely certain they do it. Made me compare the numbers and they were just plucked from LotR Wiki. As were almost all the points they talked about actually. Hell, ripping of wiki pages with without any critical thinking is bad already, but at least use Tolkien Gateway as a source then.

If im a part of that world, i would pretty much likely not know whats going on, just slacking off in my room while there is a war going on.

Love the video :3

Thank you for a cool video

Nice video, keep working.

Where those 10.000 Gorgoroth orcs not supposed to be released upon Gondor and Rohan as soon as Minas Tirith fell? How bitter sweet, but the loss of Pelennor and MT would have given Frodo the opportunity to reach Mt. Doom.

Excellent video

One thing that people always miss is that Sauron would not allow the elves to flee. Sauron has always wanted to rule the elves, and he would likely try to keep as many as possible from fleeing to the west. I think it's the same with the dwarves. Sauron would not let them go free and while dwarves are very strong-willed, I do think the would serve him in the face of total extinction.

Do an alternative history if Arnor had never Fallen.

Sir, I found your channel today. I have just finished your "Wars" playlist, and it was superb. I subscribe to most other LOTR channels, but I think you are the one to ask this... Can you do a Bad-Ass series? Not just that person's defeat of Balrog/Dragon/Evil ones, but where did they learn to fight? Who did they fight? Any special abilities/items? We're they "greater" after resurrection? Who did they fight for? Etc. I realize this topic will require extrapolation and deduction, but you do that remarkably well, while staying within reason. I hope this is an idea you'll try. TY

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks you for watching, and yeah, I'll definitely keep these suggestions in mind.

With the influx of elves fleeing sauron recounting the events where sauron won against the last bastions of resistance in Middle Earth, the Valar would take decisive action, sending a new host of the valar into the East to once and for all end the "dark lord" sauron, (by doing to him what they did to morgoth), or they could simply take a more direct route, where no elf nor maiar of good where involved, by a couple of Valar directly ascending the lands of Mordor, grabbing sauron and ferrying him west (and again, doing the same to him as with morgoth). It's important to remember that the valar stayed out of direct action due to the massive damage they did when fighting morgoth the first time.

Sauron's victory wouldn't necessarily mean Gondor and Rohan would be stack wiped or that all of their leaders would be killed in the battle. The armies trapped in the city would surely be destroyed but many on the fields would be able to retreat.

@Trigm

2 жыл бұрын

To where? into the city? Past the army in Anorien? up the side of Mindolluin? The only possible route it south, which is where the largest force of evil troops was. The first thing a comander would do is try and retake the Harlond and the South road to stop retreat.

How about a "what if video" if Doriath never fell and Gondolin was never discovered by Morgoth. How would the 1st Age have turned out...

@matiasluukkanen7718

4 жыл бұрын

Doriath could have endured if Silmarils were avoided, but Gondolin was under Doom of Mandos. Sooner or later that doom would have been fulfilled.

@sayagarapan1686

4 жыл бұрын

@@matiasluukkanen7718 Perfectly adept insight.

@shastasilverchairsg

4 жыл бұрын

What if Turin actually listened to sensible advice?

@aimansuriaprakash2380

4 жыл бұрын

@@shastasilverchairsg Turin is cursed by Morgoth and Morgoth is the most powerful Valar. So maybe he would've still suffered one way or another.

This sounds alot like my last Khazad-Dûm playthrough in Divide and Conquer where I just kinda didn't help in the war with Mordor and watched as everything south of the Misty Mountains burned

I love your content and I'd like to see more from you. If I may ask, do you take requests? For example, "What if" Elendil and his four ships landed in the south, while Isildur and Anárion's five ships landed in the north? Would that reverse Arnor's poor fortune? Would that doom Gondor from the start? Would the Mountain Men of the North be treated more favorably by Isildur? How would this impact the war with Angmar? Love you!

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure that would've reversed Arnor's fortunes. I don't think leadership was the issue, and Elendil was probably a better leader than Isildur so I don't see that changing much. Arnor's problems came from their lack of population compared to Gondor. The only thing that would've helped Arnor is if they didn't lose so many men in Mordor. Thanks, and there will definitely be more videos on Arnor in the future.

If anyone likes this kind of harsh scenario and wish to explore it further, there's a dnd setting called "Midnight" that's very much this: what if Sauron won. It also has a big rebels against the empire in star wars vibe. How do you turn the tide when you already lost? How do you deal with oppression you cannot stop and hopelessness? How do you scrap by in a world full of misery and out to get you? Midnight recently got a 5e book do now it's a great time to try it :D

Don’t Forget the Enedwaithians, Probably still angry at Numenor, and thus Gondor, attack the Gondorian Refugees to get back at the long dead Numenoreans.

The shire wasnt sitting blissfully unaware of the war. At some point after frodo left the shire saruman’s ruffians began occupying large parts of the shire

Darth you could always talk about the lost Men of the North, the ancestors of the Rohirrim, you have lore on the army they had wich was quite good

Nice video, I was thinking the other day what might have happened if Siegfried of the Second Age had sallied fourth alongside the frost wolves of valengrove, would the one right be in destruction?

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Could be

I think Sauron would get greedy after the win on the pelennor fields. It would probably still take days to take the whole city, there were many soldiers still alive in the city and Gandalf was there. Also a few thousand men were coming from the south after Aragorn had dealt with the corsairs. The morgul army would need heavy reinforcements, so I think the story wouldn't be so different.

@Trigm

2 жыл бұрын

I doubt it. The number just don't stack. Even after the arrival or Aragorn in the morning, it took all day to subdue the remaining enemies. There is far too many forces to even think of retaking the city. (considering it would be defendable by the orcs too) I also believe that most of the city was emptied with Imrahil's sortie, as they knew everything rested on them winning that battle. Also, the city would be largely leaderless, and nothing dooms a force faster than no chain of command.

very nice.

What about the fourth age? Any lore on that after Sauron's defeat.

What if bilbo was killed by smaug

Make a video about Saruman and What if he didn't become evil and instead helped the free peoples of middle.

I don't think the war would have gone to a total victory for Sauron for two reasons: Time and Logistics. First off, we need to consider the situation at a strategic level. Gondor has lost an army, but it has more and given time it can raise further levies. It doesn't take a lot to train a farmer's boy to absolutely trash Orcs. Rohan is in a similar boat. They have lost its main army and losses from the Isengard campaign are going to tell, but they can (and would) push spears into the hands of lads and greybeards to defend their homeland. The Ents are almost unscathed and wouldn't take kindly to further Orc incursions (they've already wiped out Dol Guldur stragglers). At this point they might proactively work with the Rohirrim, though how much use they'd be is debatable. To the north, Lothlorien is battered but still in the fight, Thranduil is in good shape, Lindon is almost certainly mobilising and can draw command staff from Rivendell to cover their weaknesses. The Northern Dunedain will also muster. Dale is crippled, but Erebor still has most of its fighting strength both in the capital and the Iron Hills and Grey Mountains holds (though these are likely tied up with Orc attacks). The Shire is occupied by Saruman but that's going to explode with or without the fellowship veterans, just a matter of time. In Gondor, we're likely to see fighting at river crossings. The navy (which outmatches Umbar but was initially caught out of position) would prevent further landings to the rear. The troops scared off by the Army of the Dead are likely gone for good, drowned in the river or else scattered and deserted. These choke points would be critical in delaying Sauron's advance toward Belfalas. Likely as mentioned, Angbor and Elphir are in command of the forces, though there's a non-zero chance other important figures might have escaped. Minas Tirith was not a deathtrap as Beregond points out and Aragorn did have a retreat path. I'm going to assume Theoden was unable to break into the Pelennor as the failure point, so no linkup with Eomer. So now Sauron's forces are split on three fronts as he has to push into Rohan and southern Gondor, as well as maintaining the siege of Minas Tirith as taking the second, third, fourth, etc levels by assault would be prohibitively expensive. Getting rams to the gates would be hellish and his artillery would increasingly struggle to find firing solutions. Ladders would be outright suicide. Only using petards on the gates would be viable, and doing that while under fire would be very difficult... And he has to do that SIX times. Hunger is more likely how that fight ends. Rohan has a very different fight on its hands. Theoden's forces are encircled and unavoidably suffer losses in the retreat even if they avoid fighting simply due to attrition. Going cross-country, their scouts and foragers would be clashing with enemy patrols, horses would become injured, riders would suffer accidents, supplies would dwindle. They'd also likely become burdened with Gondorian refugees unless a brutal decision is made. Gondorian military units in Anorien likely flee toward Rohan as their best hope to put up a meaningful resistance. Theoden likely survives and remains in command. If he acts intelligently, he will likely begin a guerrilla campaign, using the plains to his advantage for hit and run fights and nursing his strength as best he can. The Wold would be a quagmire for Sauron's forces as the hills would make perfect ground for ambushes. Edoras, Aldburg and the Hornburg would have to be abandoned, but the Rohirric people are used to a semi-nomadic lifestyle and if defeated would likely simply retreat into Enedwaith mostly intact. Dunlendings would oppose them, but they'd also oppose Sauron as another invader. After being burned by Saruman, they'd be suspicious of any envoys he sent. Meanwhile in the north, Lindon is mustering at Elrond's urging, as are the Northern Dunedain. Ered Luin is iffy. Eriador itself is protected from attack by the tar pit of resistance throughout Rohan and any parts of Dunland/Enedwaith which Sauron occupies. Overall occupation efforts there and in Gondor are at this point going to be stretching his manpower and forcing heavier reliance on inferior Orc troops for main battleline fighting. Lothlorien likely moves to assist Thranduil and relieve Erebor while Rohan still has some fight in it, as Galadriel's best gambit at this point would be to buy time for either some good fortune in the east (Blue Wizards are doing their thing, remember), Orocarni Dwarves to arrive or Lindon to start pouring its slumbering might into the fight. Dale is functionally out of the fight, but could at least still provide some assistance as a functional government in exile. Attempting to bring Dorwinion into the war would also be on the cards, but the likelihood of this is infinitely debatable. Likely, the war's momentum would stall out at this point. Sauron's forces are not infinite and he'd have suffered heavy losses on the northern front when Erebor was relieved, with only his southern reserves of Orcs to provide an inferior replacement. He's now fighting on four fronts and occupying huge populations. The campaigning season would be ending and everyone would be bunkering down to bring in the harvest and incoming winter. Levies would have to disperse. Speaking of which, famine. Eastern Gondor would be devastated. By winter, Lebennin's large population would be rioting over food and need suppression. Dale likewise. Rohan's crops would have been burned to deny them to the enemy and you'd see fighting between the Rohirrim and Enedwaithians/Dunlendings over their stocks. Likely the Rohirrim would resort to slaughtering livestock to survive. Western Gondor would be strained by refugees, but with rationing would probably be ok. The Shire suffers famine thanks to Sharkey's actions and even without the Fellowship veterans, this is where the revolt begins. Sharkey's ruffians would be defeated by the Bucklanders and the Shire-muster under Paladin Took. Sharkey is almost certainly lynched alongside Grima. Combined with the general situation, the muster probably remains at least partially mobilised to maintain order and protect the borders from desperate bands of refugees-turned-brigands. Bree likely also mobilises to deal with similar brigand problems. Beyond this, it becomes difficult to speculate confidently. It's probable that Sauron would consolidate rather than attempt further conquests immediately, but sooner or later he would finish off Gondor to close that front. Likely the war in Rhovanion and the Vale of Anduin would be a slow affair of attrition, possibly over centuries until the strength of the Dwarves and Elves was exhausted. Rohan would be settled by Easterlings, Dunland likely converted and turned into a vassal state under a puppet regime. Rohan would likely either become a ravaging horde eventually pushing into Eriador and settling there to continue resistance or else wither away among the ruins of Numenor's northern colonies. If Tolkien's other works are anything to go by, this would become the status quo for a fairly long time until Sauron was ready to finish the job and push on Lindon itself, assuming he dared to risk provoking the might of Aman. It all depends on how good he is at the brinkmanship game to avoid pushing the Valar into greenlighting a Second War of Wrath, which would see him crushed with contemptable ease by what would functionally at this point be a sci-fi army. Very silly, but very cool. Picture hundred of thousands or even millions of Elven soldiers (representing a minute drop in the bucket of Aman's total elfpower pool) utilising rapid mechanised warfare to storm through the continent, probably replete with orbital bombardment and Glorfindel's round three consisting of leaning out to cupola of a tank affectionately dubbed Asfaloth demanding to be driven closer so he can hit Orcs with his sword for good measure. Sauron had best hope Galadriel doesn't cry in front of Finarfin! If you got to the end of this massively bloated essay on a four year old video ending on a weird 40k side tangent, props to you! :p

7:45 what would dwarves eat in their Halls without trading for food with the outside world?

@danieldebeer6292

4 жыл бұрын

Most likely rely on preserved provisions such as salted and pickled foods, as well as grains... they would eventually run out of course. Or be like the people in Metro 2033 and eat mushrooms and pigs

@murtazaaliahmad1905

4 жыл бұрын

@@danieldebeer6292 metro 2033

@cmaeornthered

4 жыл бұрын

Rocks

@Historyfan476AD

3 жыл бұрын

battered for food with Sauron's forces but at a huge cost and with terms applied.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

🍄🍄🍄 grown in dwarf 💩.

Me: Light the beacons, we need to send aid to Gondor! (back in Utumno) Morgoth: GET´EM BOYS! Men of the West: CHARGE MEN! Sauron: Ash nazg u durbatuluk. Morgoth: oh shut up Sauron!

The publisher would have returned the manuscript to JRR with the urging: "rewrite!"

What if Feanor survived?

Victory at Pelennor Fields means Minas Tirith falls. in that case, Gondor is split and dreadfully weakened, its strongest fortress lost. Gondor's forces sustain huge losses, they have to scatter. It also means the army Rohan dispatched is largely destoyed as well. Mordor and its allies now have a secured base in the heart of Gondor. The allies have to disperse and carry out guirella war, but they are definitely on the back foot as greater forces from Mordor can be brought forward across the Anduin and prepare marches down the Anduin to the fiefs and to the North, to threaten Lorien and Erebor, and up the river and west into Rohan, to finish what Saurman started. There's no coming back from a loss at this battle in terms of regular warfare. If the ring is destroyed its destroyed but there will be no Army of the West to march to the Black Gate to distract Sauron. What the hell...this is a nightmare scenario and it sucks sucks sucks! But yeah, I get it! Love the speculation. :)

Or like Finglofin and Morgoth, Glorfindel could 1v1 with Sauron, Because he has Maiar like powers on account of him being an elf who: 1. Lived in the Years of the Trees 2. Got Straight up Resurrected And 3. When he got resurrected, he got Maiar like powers

Great video well done indeed, my only criticism with it is when you claim the turning point happened, I would dare say the turning point was before the Witch-King was slain and Aragorn had yet to arrive. without the Witch-king i think the forces could not rally enough to resist the forces of good anymore without faulting. And when Aragorn arrived with his ships and standard flying i think broken the heart of the army and no rally was possible then without the Witch-king to rally the forces using fear. Yet again with Gandalf in play i think the witch-king would falter and be killed in the end anyway.

you forgot a few things Tom Bombadil would have protected the forest near the shire which sauron would definitely try to burn down if he learns about Tom's presence there, and the men of the south that fled to bree would warn the breelanders and the breelander's would be trained by some of the refugees and maybe one or two of the last Dunadain of the North and possibly even Glorfindel, cause he would not leave the last men that are standing against sauron to face him alone, he would either stand with them or would ask the valar or the elves that reside in valanor for aid, also you forgot about the few Morequendi and Avari elves that would aid the rest of the elves if they ever met. Sorry about the lengthy paragraph

In my opinion if the battle is lost, the survivors (1-2k rohir, rest of Imrahils cavarly, Aragorn and the rest of his companions) retreat to the upper city and continue resistance for a very long time. Eventualy because his extreme losses Sauron must send out his reserve armies and as the way is clear the Ring can be destroyed normaly.

Yeah how about an alternate timeline where the Old Gaffer acts like he has some sense and told the Nazgul that Frodo headed for the Tower Hills. You know, instead of telling the obviously sinister stranger precisely where his neighbour and son are headed.

By reading the books, this is pointing out the blinking obvious

Harry Turtledove: After the Last Elf is Dead

@Sara3346

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much.

Interesting scenario. Maybe HOI or EUIV.

"What if Gandalf did not possess Narya, the Ring of Fire, during his fight with the Balrog?"

It would be intersting if Sauron had sent out so many troops after Pelanor Fields to finish his conquests that this created the perfect diversion for Frodo and Sam. Sauron's armies win every battle but then word reaches them that their lord is defeated. They schism and fight among themselves, forming a rapidly fragmenting patchwork of sucessor states to the Mordor empire, while the free people's of Middle Earth wage a long Guerilla war against them.

If Sauron win in this battle, it doesn't change anything. Every event in Middle Earth is in Eru Iluvatar's vision. In anyway, Eru Iluvatar will lead the way for Frodo to destroy one ring. Sauron didn't have chance at the start. ( Sorry my bad grammar English =))).

@anthonygonzalez2897

4 жыл бұрын

That’s not true. The darkness brought to Arda by Melkor was not Eru Illvatar’s vision and anything resulting from that (Sauron) is unplanned by the big guy.

@meduseldtales3383

4 жыл бұрын

@@anthonygonzalez2897 “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” - the Big Guy

I still think the Ring quest succeeds. Sauron probably thinks that the Ring is in Minas Tirith. So he would have his armies waste a bunch of time searching for it while sending his other armies out towards Southern Gondor and Rohan. It would be more difficult for Frodo and Sam. But with Sauron still being distracted, thinking the Ring is just barely within his grasp, they still have more than a chance.

this isnt exactly correct as the reason why only 6000 rohirrim went to pelenor was that 10 000 stayed behind to guard the plains.

During the battle of Pelennor, Sauron thought Saruman had the ring. He likely would have sent nazgul and men to orthanc. His orcs would have been horse fodder for Rohan.

The walls of rohan are made of Stone, is this video not based on the books after all?

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Are they? Tolkien was pretty vague with his description of Edoras. I don't think there is a definitive statement as to whether the walls are wood or stone. Popular imagination has them as wooden, but I'm definitely willing to be proven wrong.

@apocrypha9620

4 жыл бұрын

in battle for middle earth 1 walls are wood but I dont think this game enough for the source

For me, this is like the speech Tony Stark gives to Loki in the Avengers. Sauron never had a chance at victory because the Valar still exist. He's lucky men defeated him because if the Valar were forced to sail east once again it would be a wash.

I have never seen this question asked, so i'll ask it. "What if the One ring were only partially destroyed?" Stay with me on this it'll make sense. So everything transpires exactly as it did in the books and movies. Frodo fails to throw in the ring, gollum bites it off his finger, then falls into the lava. Now heres where it changes. What if one of the nazghul had been just a little bit quicker on the draw and made it into the cavern just as gollum hit the magma below. The ring BEGINS to melt but at the last instant before it completely dissolved the wrath plunged into the lava grabbed the one ring and lifted it above the inferno. and being with the wrath being uneffected by the heat, then proceeded to climb out and up the cliff with the half melted ring in hand. So What happens next? I shall look forward to these replies! Should be interesting.

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think Tolkien ever spoke about anything like this, but I would imagine that a half destroyed One Ring would yield the same result as a completely destroyed One Ring. If half of it melts, the object has been broken, and it's no longer a ring.

@Phoenixesper1

2 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT Ok lets run with half the ring melts. it can no longer be worn. But what of saurons spiritual attachment to the ring? Considering that even after the rings destruction sauron still does exist as a shadow of himself, one could argue that much more of him would survive a partial destruction of the ring, crippled but still powerful, perhaps on par with gandalf the white. Also would it be possible to reforge or repair the ring? possibly using the combined powers of the remaining rings? If so then this would wildly change saurons motives and change his tactics significantly, as he would then NEED to regain the rings at all costs, versus simply reacquiring them as a bonus. All interesting concepts to explore.

You've got a lot of errors here. the two biggest is you're assuming all the leaders of the west perish on the field AND that the Eorlings who stayed behind were in their great defensive work at Dunharrow which was the final redoubt. In the story they say Edoras is undefensible. There was also an army on the northern road blocking the line to rohan. If suaron had won here it would not have substancially altered the events of the war of the ring. Sauron was so sure that the ring was in the west he would keep searching for it, the captains of the west only road towards the black gate because they had destroyed sauron's army but had he won at Pelanor then he would have been looking ofr the ring among the ruins or the retreating forces pumping more energy further afield.

If sauron took minas tirith then frodo and sam would almost certainly have been recaptured whilst attempting to reach mount doom after escaping cirith ungol

spooky ghosts!

Ya know, I was on the fence about ole Sauron but you convinced me with, Sauron Sucks

Another great - if depressing - vid, can't believe I'm only finding some of these so much later. Note of (hopefully constructive) criticism - that music on this and several other of your older vids is annoying m8, it distracts from what you are saying. Glad you don't seem to use it anymore.

Regardless of what happens at the battle, Frodo is successful. Devine Providence is the central theme of the story. God still exists, therefore He will weave the song of creation to harmonize regardless of how evil like Sauron try to derail it.

I would love to know how the rest of the planet would react to sauron winning

@AeneasGemini

4 жыл бұрын

The Valar feel sad for a bit, but then realise they already stopped giving a shit, which is why they stopped bothering to help

How would they be able to win in this scenario? Can the oathbreakers even be stopped?

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

We're not actually sure if the Oathbreakers could physically harm people. They didn't kill the Haradrim and Corsairs; they drove them off through the terror they spread. And by the Battle of Pelennor Fields, Aragorn had released them so they wouldn't play a part in any aftermath.

@randomletterhead6681

4 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT yeah your right on that,but if we're going off the movies,we can see them killing the party of orcs that was expecting the corsaires.(or the orcs just really had a fetish for falling down backwards)As well as bringing down a mumakil through what I'm assuming was physical force.Is there something I'm not accounting here or is I just the movie pissing on the lore?

@yesway980

4 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT Of course they could harm people. On their first meeting, it was only the power of Andruil that stopped the Dead King from running Aragorn through. Plus they were quite clearly seen taking down one of the Oliphaunts with ease. It's kinda lame to suggest that they were 'hired' simply on the basis to scare people away. They cut through the Corsairs, Orcs and Haradrim before they even got the chance to flee. Sure Aragorn released them from their oath after the battle of Pelennor fields but that was because the decision to move to the Black Gate came after they were freed, so thy had initially 'lived' up to their oath.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

@@yesway980 At the Dagor Dagorath J.R.R. Tolkien strikes down Peter Jackson so the latter cannot corrupt the Second Music of the Ainur.

The hobbits would still win. I actually think more likely now than even in the movie itself since Sauron will cast his full gaze further and beyond as he has just won a major accomplishment. The army would fall apart without Sauron leading it

Nah Eru will just pull a fast one and make Sauron trip into the lava in the Cracks of Doom when he is gloating over his final victory or something.

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Let everyone die and then solve the problem? That would be a dick move from Eru.

Wonder how many people in the comments section have read the books.

@Historyfan476AD

3 жыл бұрын

Read them to many times, I have.

what if Sauron tuned against Melkor

@meduseldtales3383

4 жыл бұрын

What if Huan had killed Sauron?

@anthonygonzalez2897

4 жыл бұрын

When? It doesn’t seem like it would change too much unless Sauron executes some kind of conspiracy from within Angband during the Siege. At any other point in time Sauron would just be another Maiar against Morgoth and there were plenty of those. That being said if Sauron had turned his cloak during the Siege then we might have seen something interesting indeed!

It will be heartbreaking to see the Shire being destroyed by the army of Sauron

Legolas is a prince, but Gimli is just a noble. Would Gimli be a huge loss to Erebor?

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

His death wouldn't be catastrophic, but it would still be a big deal. Gimli was 4th in line to the throne of Erebor (5th if Thorin III had a son at that point), and two of the Dwarves ahead of him were quite old. He would've been quite important in Erebor.

But if all of Mordor's armies go to garrison Minas Tirith and attack Gondor and Rohan, wouldn't that empty Mordor, having the same effect as the Battle of Morannon? It's hard to believe more orcs are required for a single battle than two seperate campaigns.

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Not necessarily. Sauron assumed Aragorn had the One Ring when he showed up at the Black Gate, which is why Sauron suddenly rushed all of his armies north. If this never happens, Sauron can take his time reinforcing his armies that have already left Mordor. He was fully prepared for a war of attrition.

@nikolaosboukouvalas449

4 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT I am not entirely convinced. The forces of Aragorn are described as "less than 6000" and the armies of Mordor as "10 times as many". So let's say 50-60 thousands. Certainly a great amount for a single battle (as Sauron believed Aragorn to wield the One Ring). But for the subjugation of Gondor and Rohan? I think it's a fair amount for the task, even after a disaster at Morannon. There are examples in history where 25000 have been sent for less demanding tasks, as quenching rebellions and uprisings.

then suddenly, out of the darkness, from the willowy banks of the withywindel, Tom Bombadil shows up and sings a bunch of goofy songs and brags about his magic girlfriend before defeating Sauron in single combat, claiming the one ring for himself, later transforming all the land into a fairytale land where everyone gets a magic girlfriend and a grumpy evil tree that eats people in their backyard

@DarthGandalfYT

Жыл бұрын

The ending we all deserve.

@INTERNERT

Жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT “Merry dom dello !” Bombadil breathes heavily, his armored plates clanking on his throne of tree roots, eyes glowing red in a light of the All Forge “For I’m a Happy Fellow!” in the darkness… ice weasels

The Army of the Dead would have wiped out Sauron's entire army themselves, given the chance. Now, if you were to remove them from the equation altogether you may have a point to make. To just imply that they 'failed' is non-sensical.

@ChampionOfLight

4 жыл бұрын

This video is based on the books (see also the mentioning of the Knights of Dol Amroth). In the books, the Army of the Dead never went to the Pelennor Fields, so the video's point stands.

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

That would be applicable for the movies, but my videos strictly follow book-canon.

Here’s one: what would happen if the One Ring appeared in Westeros?

@Nastgardaren

4 жыл бұрын

I have thought about this as well, very interesting subject! We almost certainly would know the ending with the wielder becoming enslaved by sauron in some way or another, but what this would mean for Westeros in it's entirety is the real interesting part!

I don't understand the Elvis leaving. They could die fighting sauron and if they die they just wake up in valinor. They can't die really.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

At one point Elvis did really leave the building.

Raise your voice

Gondor won because of the dead helped

4:24🤣🤣🤣🤣 8:02🤣🤣🤣🤣

The pelennor fields does show how it would be a turning point for the battle between Sauron and the free people of middle earth, since Gondor was already pretty weak and Rohan could only do so much. Minas tirith serves as a last strong hold for the free people before Sauron would set forth to conquer the rest of the world. With the capital city of Gondor captured it would merely be a matter of how long it would be for Sauron to have the witch King & his armies to destroy the remaining few that oppose him. Eventually, all would either be under his rule or simply hide away and never be seen again.

Huh i guess i am the only one that hate the free peoples and support Sauron

FiRst ComMeNt! lol

I hate these what If scenarios., if JRR (or by extension Christopher) haven’t specified then don’t make presumptions or play the guessing game, so irritating..