While Sauron certainly benefited from the plague, it doesn't make sense that he was responsible, because of the "why didn't he do it again?" argument. Heck, if he is capable of biological warfare on this scale, why didn't he try this in the Second Age when he had the ring and, thus, was at the peak of his power?

@chazkorkosz1032

4 жыл бұрын

Very true

@MarshWaha

4 жыл бұрын

Fair question.

@technologic21

4 жыл бұрын

In Arda Marred, it does indicate that Morgoth's evil is inherent in the fabric of the world, out of harmony with the Songs, and did linger, long, long after being cast into the void. Along with Ungoliant, the plauge, represent the more primordial (natural evil) inherent in Iluvatar's universe.

@santinoofnapa566

4 жыл бұрын

It is clear based on context that the plauge is Sauron's work, but the means by which, or to what exact degree, he caused it are unspecified. It is possible that such an exotic plan was one reserved by the Dark Lord after his previous projections had failed, or perhaps it required the participation of the Nazgul or encompassed another obstacle. It is also possible that it was a weaponization of the natural taint present in the world due to Morgoth's sabotage of the structure of the Earth, enacted by Sauron but not of his own craft, and thus lacking his favor as a strategy. Of course, I would not dare investigate the logic of a nihilistic Demon-monarch hellbent on domination of all mortal realms. His very nature explains the irrationality of his schemes.

@sufficientmagister9061

4 жыл бұрын

@Anders Engaard J.R.R. Tolkien had strongly hinted that Sauron brought the plague in order to reclaim Mordor. As for the "Why didn't he do it again" argument (and in the Second Age where Sauron's power was very great), I will say this: Sauron probably had other options in the Second Age; and in the Third Age, Sauron also probably had other ideas rather than the plague he had sent earlier on.

Highly sceptical of Sauron being responsible for this plague.

What a timely topic. If Sauron was responsible for the Great Plague then it largely backfired on him, as the sickness also had a strong impact on Harad and probably in the East.

@lordvongg

2 жыл бұрын

I mean let's say Sauron won at the end of Return of the King. He would of killed the people of Harad, the Easterling as well as the pirates of Umbar after. He was just using them just like saruman with the people of Dunland

@otaku-sempai2197

2 жыл бұрын

@@lordvongg Nah, man. Sauron didn't want to destroy Men (with the possible exception of the Numenoreans). Men were corruptible and he wanted to rule over them. If there was one people that he wanted to utterly destroy, it was the Elves.

@squamish4244

3 ай бұрын

Unlike everyone hit by the Plague, Sauron can wait. If he loses as many people as his enemies, so what? He has more to begin with. In a few hundred years, he'll be able to strike again.

The plague devestated Sauron's forces and probably worse than the kingdoms of men because Sauron never capitalized on the weakened state of those kingdoms.

Great video 👍🏻 personally, I don't think Sauron was behind this plague, but just used the opportunity to his advantage.

@smithsanity2727

4 жыл бұрын

D McCXXIX agreed

I believe this is similar to Durin's bane. A buried relic from Morgoth that has resurfaced.

How about this theory for some fan fiction: one or both of the Blue Wizards - one specializing in healing - loses his way & his mind. He creates a plague for the purposes of population control, as a weapon against a neighboring easterling village, or some other misguided "good intention" that got out of hand. You guys are smarter than I am: run with it!

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

It's certainly possible that one of the Blue Wizards caused it, especially if you subscribe to the belief that they fell to corruption in the east.

@thelifeofbrian1988

4 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT I'm super intrigued by the scenario that one of them - Palando? - just loses his mind the further he travels from Valinor. In his diminished state he "adopts" some tribe of isolated easterlings. He defends them by creating a plague that over destroys their enemies as he has no memory of his own power. The plague spreads to the west...

@Crafty_Spirit

2 жыл бұрын

I really enjoyed that comment 😁

I know this video is almost two years old but I have two thoughts on the origin of the plague I want to share: 1. Are the Blue Wizards still around? We don't know much about them besides their names and the fact that they went East and never came back. So, if they are still alive at this point, they probably hang out in Rhûn or nearby and are working against Sauron somehow. While Alatar and Pallando are both said to be followers of Orome, the latter is in other writings attributed to Mandos and Nienna, which sticks out to me. A Maia following and learning from those two Valar would probably be the greatest healer Middle-Earth has ever seen, which could also explain his "civilian" name Rómestámo: "East-Helper". So, why did the deadliest plague in the history of the Third Age originate practically in the backyard of this guy? Did he create it as a desperate measure to weaken Sauron and it got out of control? Or did Sauron (or maybe even Khamûl with the power of his ring?) create it to discredit him in some way? Was the greatest healer on the continent simply beaten by a natural disease or were higher powers at work here? 2. What was the political situation in the East when the plague broke out? Was Rhûn really an ally of Sauron during this time? It doesn't seem so. The last battle between Gondor and the Easterlings was in 1248, so they were at peace for almost four centuries. After that battle, king Rómendacil made efforts to create diplomatic ties with the Northmen and his son Valacar even married a woman from Rhovanion, so it's reasonable to assume that Gondor also tried to be at reasonably friendly terms with Rhûn at the time, especially after Eldacar (Valacar's son) won the civil war in 1448. To me it seems that Rhûn in 1635 was split into multiple factions with different allegiances and different attitudes towards Gondor and towards Sauron. Two centuries later, the Wainriders (who are never mentioned before or after) are in control of Rhûn and strong enough to launch two full scale invasions against Gondor. Did the Great Plague help them gain control? They seem to be a nomadic people, so their more spread out lifestyle might allow them to survive the plague with much fewer casualties than other more urbanized factions. In this case, the plague absolutely helped Sauron in reinstalling the Easterlings as enemies to Gondor. Looking at this, it could make sense for Sauron to start the plague and it explains why he did it in Rhûn. He had enough friends there to have access to the country but also enough opposition to potentially profit from the plague. Maybe, he never meant for it to spread to other areas and just intended it to be a drastic measure in local politics. That might also explain why he never did it again. Sauron wants to be king of the world, he wants to be in control of everything and he was not in control of the plague, which is evident from the fact that his allies in Harad were hit just as badly as his enemies. He might have been able to trigger it initially but once it started spreading from person to person, he couldn't do anything about it.

A big thing that is not explained by Tolkein is why there was no recovery from the plague. In our world there were recurrences of plague after the first wave in 1347-9,, but these ended after less than a century, and by the last third of the 15th century, the population was rising, and fully recovered to its pre-plague level by the early 17th century. One would expect recovery of Rhovanion's and Rhuns' strength at about the same time. But while Rhun apparently recovered, Rhovanion did not.

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

Rhun is a very big place. It's possible that the Wainriders who conquered Rhovanion were a Easterling tribe that wasn't hit by the Great Plague. Once the plague ripped through, they might've migrated west, conquering as they went, until they reached the weakened Kingdom of Rhovanion. That might explain why Rhun "recovered" much faster than Rhovanion.

@jefffinkbonner9551

Ай бұрын

The good professor was a linguistic genius but perhaps wasn’t as adept at demography. But my thought is that it has more to do with Tolkien’s overall theme of entropy and decay and diminishment over time as opposed to progress, improvement, and growth. He wrote of the world being young in the ancient days when the beings were mighty and the clashes epic, or he wrote about the world growing old in the present or future and men lived shorter.

How large was Morgoth's armies during the Silmarillion when he was at war with the Elves before the war of Wrath?

@celestialhylos7028

10 ай бұрын

So large

Guess we know why Gondor was in such a weak state in the war of the rings

Very glad you did a video on this subject! Cheers

Excellent content with ideas and theories outside the canonocal Tolkien lore!

I already read the wiki article on it, but perhaps you can elaborate more on the Long Winter and its effects like you did here, like maybe Sauron sent that too? Sauron wouldn't care (being evil and all) if one of his human nations he had serving under him got hit by it, he had like four others, the Nazgul, and his Orcs so I wouldn't say it did just as much damage to his forces. That could have simply been where he made and needed to unleashed it, ingredients climate there and to hit Rhovanion. All kinds of reasons for no second, he couldn't for lack of power or what else he needed, thinks the first did enough, only knew how to make that one, and now the survivors are immune and so will their descendants, don't want to hit his others human servants. It seems Arnor was blessed by its low population for once makes it harder to spread. Of course armies hardly even matter if he got his Ring.

@brianj.841

Ай бұрын

"...and now the survivors are immune and so will their descendants..." You are granting him to much modern information regarding germ theory and immunization, neither of which was known in (our) time. (I concede the point of 'How do you know he doesn't?". That's something we can only debate.) My two cents: He saw how effective it was, nearly depopulating entire countries, and decided another might leave to few Men around; but that all those pesky Elves would survive just fine. (Dwarves are implied to be 'hardy' so their immune systems might be tougher.)

I like the idea of it being made by Sauron solely based on what you said about plagues not occurring naturally (that we know of) in Arda. Perhaps Sauron's ability to produce a plague was exhausted after this, restricting his ability to inflict biological warfare on the world, which would explain why he would do it at Gondor's height. This could also be backed up with the idea that this plague was used at this time in order to gain lands to rebuild his own armies in due time and weaken the free peoples, leveling the playing field so to speak, and opening the door to their eventual elimination. On the other side, I suppose this plague could be foreshadowing Arda becoming a "mundane" world (Earth) after the fourth age, with diseases and plagues entering the world as magic leaves. I'm just kind of spitballing my ideas right now, I love the simplicity of fantasy and personally am not a fan of the idea that the people of Arda were always as susceptible to plagues and diseases as we are today

Sauron was responsible. the reason the plague didn't happen multiple time was because Sauron had one achieved his objective of weakening Gondor. And two the surviving population probably developed a resistants to the plague (not immunity but resistants). And the reason Sauron had the plague effect his human allies as well is because he is patient. His goal was to weaken Gondor he didn't care how his human vassal's were effected. And Mission accomplished look at Gondor in the last days of the third age it can not stand even in the slightest against Mordor or the Easterlings. Also Sauron has been described as being insanely patient so he would be more than willing to damage both Gondor and his human allies if it meant to permanently damaging Gondor and he could aid his human allies into recovery

I like your story telling abilities thanks for the vid

Well done.

Getting Byzantine flashbacks Honestly viruses and plagues are fascinating and hold near limitless potential, sure they are somewhat disconcerting to most people they are truly beautiful.

Natural, the bubonic plague its still actual today, but we grow imunity to it, not all, but a huge procent of us are imune to it, the ones that were not strong enough for it passed away in time, we are the childrens of the surviviors of that times. So maybe here its like that, even if Sauron made it, its probably obsolate at the time of the War of the Ring. Sorry for my bad english, i am not a native speker. Nice video, i always wanted to know more of this event. Thanks

@horakoeri

4 жыл бұрын

We literally learned how to make medicine for it, we're not immune for it

I don't think he was responsible. The plague came from the east, yes. However, this also means that his own vassal states might be affected as well. What's the benefit of weakened foe, if your own human resources are also struck and you can't really exploit the opportunity? Furthermore, if it was his doing, why he didn't unleash yet another, different plague to simply genocide humans? He just got proof that current one was very successful.

I have possibly the wildest theory about the Great Plague. I think that way back when Morgoth corrupted the race of Men, he taught them sorcery and other occult practices much like how the watcher angels are said to have done according to Judeo-Christian tradition. Now what does this have to do with the Great Plague? Let me explain: What if Morgoth had a sort of high priest or sorcerer who was powerful among the Easterlings who could create the plague thanks to Morgoth's teachings. It would explain why it devastated Rhún, Rhovanion, Gondor, and Cardolan as this figure would be a fiercely loyal Morgoth worshipper and would most definitely want to punish the Easterlings who rejected Morgoth as a god-king. The plague hitting Rhovanion, Gondor, and Cardolan makes sense as would greatly cripple each kingdom's power to wage war. The question of why the plague would have started in Rhún is due to the Easterlings who rejected Sauron and Morgoth as god-kings as well as to snuff out any suspected growing resistance to Sauron and Morgoth worship.

So if the plague could also kill animals like horses etc, COULD it have effected Orcs and Trolls/Goblins etc too?

@Darth Gandalf Hello. nice video. I wish to offer a few points. (even if this might escape anyone's notice I will try still) I think Sauron is responsible. I admit his power might be weak but I think Sauron amplified an existing plague and made it stronger. If we use a historical basis, the Black Death was caused by biological warfare from the Mongol Armies in a siege. My guess is Sauron used whatever power he could to amplify an existing disease and had it released. Would Sauron use the plague on his own vassals? There is a motive. At around this time, the Blue Wizards are in Middle Earth disrupting Sauron in the east. It is likely Sauron might use the plague to turn the Easterlings against the Blue Wizards. Another reason why I think Sauron made the plague is the affected areas are within Gondor's sphere of influence. If it was a natural plague like the Black Death, I would think Dale and Angmar would be affected as well. On why it did not affect Arthedain I think there is not a factor. I do not know if the kings issued a quarantine. Maybe. I kinda doubt it. At around this time, Arthedain is in a war against Angmar and the kingdom is on a war footing. This means much of those areas were already evacuated by that point so there was limited contact. Also, Arthedain suffered a drop in population since they gave the Shire to the hobbits. As for why didn't Sauron use it again? First, he was weakened. Second, why would he? Gondor is weakened and Arnor is gone. Plue in his arrogance, Sauron would not always pick the best tactics. Hope you have a nice day

I honestly don’t think sauron created it as he was very weak and took till the hobbit to move back to his realm and like you said why not create another and use it during the battle for minas tirith to even more weaken the armies of Gondor but if he didn’t was it created by the gods to punish the world for not destroying this evil forever by casting the ring in to mount doom

Interesting

personally I think Sauron had everything to do with it, to me to a point it does not make sense if he didn't I mean he had motive plus Angmar was at war with the dwindling kingdome of Arnor and though I sure witch was make short work he certainly had to deal with two allied kingdomes with more in the south, why not with a plague it would be hard to point the finger and say who was responsible, I mean if Sauron is weak at the time it make sense to move in secret, its not like any one knew the witch king was the leader of the nazgul, and as far as rhun how loyal are they to Sauron, are they loyal enough that if Sauron told them to kill all of there country to nothing they would do it, besides that we aren't even given a report on how badly Rhun, Harad or any of the kingdome that joined Sauron were effected just Rhovanion, Gondor and Cardolan, though I'm sure it might have just as bad, but I just think this was to much stroke of luck not to have at least have a dark power behind I mean it would not even be that hard infect a man send him east as a merchant from an enemy king and there have it, as for why not do it again because maybe it was to effective or maybe it wasn't as effective as you think I mean sure human would have been gone but he would still have dwarves and elves to contend with even if they are fewer in number and I think humans being out of the picture along with Sauron gaining back his strength would be enough to put their differences aside, my only other theory's was it come from the orcs I mean its likely the orcs were affected but were resilient enough to replenish their numbers and they certainly were not the cleanest of races, or it was one of Morgoth last gifts to his former apprentice along time after his defeat, who knows maybe rhun did it to them self's not by creating the plague but by purposely getting infected, only Tolkien and he left that up to your imagination. the question I had is did elves like Galadriel help to try to heal people with the plague, I'm sure the answer is yes and i know elves cant be every where but it does seem if elves were not effected they would try to heal the plague with elven magic and knowledge because if the answer was no then what the heck

What makes me wonder is, why did the horses in Rhovanion also die? But apparently not elsewhere?

@DarthGandalfYT

21 күн бұрын

It's possible that they died due to the winter rather than the actual plague. But if horses weren't immune, I imagine the reason why Rhovanion gets mentioned is because they were a very horse-centric society, so most of them dying was a huge deal. As opposed to Gondor where horses weren't as common or as important.

What if the great plauge never happend.

I think it's an outcome of the general evilness that comes from Morgoth's long term corruption of Arda.

I think blame for the plague can be laid at the feet of Melkor

Oof the quality jump, came from the gondor army size vid.

I wonder what one can learn from this mythology; specifically, analyzing the source of great plagues, and uniting by them.

i think tom bombadill stopped the great plague

the disease came out of the east around the area of mordor, heck of a conicidence if he wasn't behind it

The plague is fairly common in the southern states of the US..

Did either of the plagues have any effect on orcs?

It was the Queen of the Merovail who unleashed the plague.

You say that tens of thousands died in the shire, but I never got the inpression that there were even ten thousand hobbits. Was this a guess did I miss something. Good video though!

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

We don't for certain how many Hobbits there are. What we do know is that the Shire is very densely populated though, whilst still being a decent size. The Brandybucks settled across the Brandywine due to overpopulation and lack of space, and the Shire gets granted more lands to the west during the Fourth Age.

If Sauron was Communist Chinese, then 'yes', Sauron started the Great Plague.

Were orcs affected?

@DarthGandalfYT

4 жыл бұрын

I'm gonna say no. If they're actually descended from corrupted Elves, then they've likely kept their immunity to disease as well.

@TiagoSilva-gb4kv

4 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT thanks :)

@thorshammer7883

3 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT Unless mutations occurred.