We want more ! This was a great video. Do The Peoples of Rhovanion and Anduin next

So glad to see overlooked Eriador get some attention. It's my favorite part of Middle-Earth and I even wrote a story set there.

@zayedbinimran957

2 ай бұрын

hopefully its better than r.o.p

Greetings from Czechia ❤🇨🇿. Great video as always.

Great video, keep up the good work. Looking forward to whatever you have in store next.

amazing bro, been wondering about this for years... how did this happened and where it went, thanks! nobody talks about your lore so good, keep up the good work :D

Love the video and thorough narrative!

Deep knowledge of Middle Earth's geography and political states/regions are an absolute essential to have a scant idea of what all is going on during the War of the Ring. I've actually made about a dozen 32" x 28" maps which I've traced on my 55" Samsung and detailed.

Excellent work. I hope Amazon uses this video as a reference for the upcoming series. The only thing I might add to the map is that Hobbits were already native to various areas of Eriador several centuries before 1600 TA, i.e. even before the Shire was founded. I also like that you emphasize how strange it is that the Hobbits and Breelanders survived everything pretty well, being the most defenseless people of all. (The 3rd Age also seems to have been much more devastating to Eriador than the "Dark Ages" of the 2nd...) What else I noticed: In the Unfinished Tales - as well as in your video - it is reported that the Dunlendings descended from the Gwathuirim dwelling by the Gwathlo. However, in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings, it says that the Dunlendings are descended from the original inhabitants of the White Mountains. How could this fit together?

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

It's because the Gwaithurim and the original Men of the Mountains are the same people. The only difference is that the Gwaithurim were a group that kept migrating westwards. By the mid-Second Age, they've diverged enough to be considered separate people, but they both descend from the same common people.

@skjold224

11 ай бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT Just a headsup. Its Gwathuirim. The People of Middle-earth: "76. The Enedhwaith (or Central Wilderness) was shared by the North and South Kingdoms, but was never settled by Numenor- eans owing to the hostility of the Gwathuirim (Dunlendings), except in the fortified town and haven about the great bridge over the Greyflood at Tharbad. [The name Gwathuirim of the Dunlendings has not occurred before.]"

Great stuff, thanks for this

Are birth rates of Humans in Middle Earth lower then birth rates in the real world? It took centuries for the human kingdoms to rebuild after a single plauge a thousand years before the events of the Lord of the Rings while in real life Europe was able to recover from the Black Death after 80 - 150 years.

@TheMasonK

3 жыл бұрын

I think it was a plethora of issues that drove the population down. It reminds me of medieval Europe. Peasants wouldn’t travel far from their castle out of fear of bandits and the protection from their king or ruler not being very outstretched. This is exactly why the people of Bree did not trust outsiders and hobbits rarely trekked away from the shire.

@TheMasonK

3 жыл бұрын

So when there’s nobody traveling/trade/exchanging ideas occurring between kingdoms, you get this stunt in population growth. Also the Black Death occurred pretty much at the end of the Middle Ages. The renaissance had begun just over a 100 years later. This propelled learning, exploration, better knowledge of human health, better food, somewhat better sanitary conditions, all of which contribute to population growth.

@DarthGandalfYT

3 жыл бұрын

Ballin2kStyle gave some pretty good answers. The stuff about peasants not wanting to travel far from the castle would really apply to places like Bree or the Shire. You need more land for agriculture if you want to grow your population, but without a proper central government, claiming those lands isn't easy, especially when said lands are wild and dangerous. The Men of Bree probably reproduced just enough to keep their population the same for many years, and reproducing at a faster rate than that would risk food/land shortages. The Shire went through several population declines, and they needed new land in the Fourth Age to account for their growing population.

@TheMasonK

3 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT I wonder if Tolkien was going for that when he wrote about the downfall of the peoples of Eriador. Like the fall of the Western Roman Empire (Arnor) vibe while the Eastern/Byzantine (Gondor) empire still thrived for a while after.

Great video

Nonetheless, at the closing days of the Third Age there should be still multiple small settlements of men, and to a far lesser degree dwarves and elven scattered throughout all Eriador, as multiple sources mention.

@DarthGandalfYT

3 жыл бұрын

It's always possible. Aragorn says that there aren't settlements of Men within a hundred leagues of Bree (and the surrounding villages), and that there aren't any settlements east of the Forsaken Inn. I'd say he's a pretty good source on that. There might be smaller settlements of Men either in northern Eriador, near to the Lhun or in Minhiriath/Enedwaith, but they're never mentioned.

@Guriezous99

3 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT And yet we see in The Hobbit that the three trolls had been feeding on villagers near the Trollshaws.

@DarthGandalfYT

3 жыл бұрын

I'm aware of that line, but I'm always wary of using The Hobbit as a primary source of information. It was written before Tolkien had fleshed out a lot of his world, and as a result we often get situations where some things that are mentioned in The Hobbit (such as Giants, Bladorthin) are never mentioned anywhere else or some things that are mentioned in The Hobbit are straight up contradicted by Lord of the Rings (such as the idea of Mannish villages in the Trollshaws). That's not saying that I don't consider The Hobbit canon, it's more just saying that I'll almost always treat it secondary to LOTR.

@oscarernstell6214

Жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT Aragorn states he cannot sustain a company in the wild so while the remaining Dunedain project power f ex at the Sarn Ford far from their home in the Angle, and they're not very welcomed in Bree, and the breelanders talk of people from the south, this combined suggests there are people south of the southern downs assisting the Dunedain. I believe Arnor was quite elitist and even Aragorn when mentioning men might be talking of numenorean men as Dunedain and Edain are very similar words. The fall of Arnor is the fall of its dunedain warrior elite much more than of all its people or so I believe. These southerners coming up the road are also said to continue north and there is no mentioning on what fortune they seek there, if as frontier settlers or to refuge among kinsmen. Just as when Rome crumbled. much of the population dwindling was actually a population redistribution, where city centers and plains were abandoned but new lands settled in valleys, on hilltops, in marshes and woodlands. Places the writers, monks and bishops close to the old cities, didn't really take note of them. Given that the orcs and hillmen didn't have modern technologies for tracking people down, moving fast, surveying their area of operations, or communicate between units, a complete overrun and genocide of Erioador sounds extremely unlikely. More likely, people just fled. The plauge was more likely the big killer and might have been why people seem rather xenophobic and afraid of strangers, which can explain why finally, trade and distant connections have broken down. In Europe existed the Church to force travelling, but Eriador has none of that so over all people would just have become extremely decentralized. Without these assumptions, it's very hard to explain how at all there could ever have been a restoration of the Kingdom. In conclusion, Eriador isn't lacking people, it simply lack a government.

You briefly showed us the Amazon map of the 2nd Age (to point out the denser forests). What do you think about this map in general, and especially about the new regions east of the Sea of Rhun (around the Orocarni) and the implied mountain ranges and rivers south of Khand? Are these landscapes and countries mentioned or explained by Tolkien? Or were they just invented for the series? This might be an interesting topic for a new video...

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

I really like the Amazon map so far. I like what they've done with Orocarni and the Wild Wood (the forest next to Orocarni), and I like the inclusion of the southern Grey Mountains south of Umbar. They will have a lot of creative liberties as far as these places are concerned as Tolkien wrote little about them.I think it shows that they've really done their research, at least as far as the map is concerned.

There were a few men living in Northern Minhiriath at the War of the Ring, when the Nazgul rode towards the Shire the few inhabitants fled from then

Nice, i love maps.

Alright, nice analysis. I have 2 questions. Where is it mentoined that Tharbad is claimed by Men of Eriador? Is there more information on that? And weren't there any Dwarves to the north side of the Ered Luin?

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

1). In the Appendices - the Great Plague wipes out the remaining Dunedain of Cardolan, and Gondor withdraws its garrisons from its outer territories. It's never explicitly stated, but it's heavily implied that Tharbad effectively became independent at this point. 2). There were. I coloured it on the map, but I didn't label it so that's my bad.

Cheers

Funny I was always fascinated by the fringe locations less talked about

Does not HoME suggest there were also large populations of Avari in Eriador during the 2nd age before the War of Elves and Sauron?

Where were the Moriquendi or Dark Elves during the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ages? Why were they completely absent from any tales and why were they missing? Surely they would of been fine since they are thousands of miles away from Sauron or Morgoth's influence during these ages and probably flourished before magic began disappearing.

@untitled568

3 жыл бұрын

I think they are living in Woodland Realm, Lothlorien, previously in Dol Amroth. Also possibly in Dorwinion and somewhere in Rhun

@bundayeti

3 жыл бұрын

The Moriquendi technically include all elves who did not see the light of the two trees in Valinor. This includes the sindar of Lindon (former telleri of Beleriand), the elves of Lothlorien, Thranduil`s folk (mixed nandor, sindar, silvan and likely even some avari) and probably the elves formerly inhabiting Edhellond before the ruins were occupied by Gondor (also a mixed lot). So that covers the Moriquendi of Telleri origin. Although it is odd that there is no mention of elves native to Eriador, only refugees from Beleriand. But what about the Dark Elves? The only distinctly Dark Elf recorded west of Mordor is the recluse wierdo Eol, who is noted to be Sinda, who is merely called the Dark Elf, due to his darkened skin and home located in a sunlight deprived forest. So Dark Elf was more an insult or jab at him, rather than a distinct categorisation. Unless we mean Moriquendi as a whole. And what about the Avari? Well, they refused to follow the Valar west when they were asked. If the orcs were corrupted elves (Tolkien lore is murky there) then these elves were the most likely candidates to be captured. Though it is unlikely that they all fell to Morgoth. Some likely migrated westwards and mixed with the aforementioned Telleri west of Mordor. However, whether they were willing to pass west of the Misty mountains is debatable (since many of the telleri even simply gave up and stayed put). The majority of Avari likely remained East of Mordor, beyond the interest of western elves or the scope of the books. Although if they did exist, I imagine Gondor may have had some fragments of texts mentioning them from the days of the Numenorian explorations. But they likely fled farther east of Mordor, beyond the influence of even the men subjugated by Sauron. They were perhaps exterminated or lived in small numbers in isolated forests and Mountains. Unless the blue wizards helped them and had a great enough influence to lessen Saurons influence. Mordor has a central location in Middle Earth.Therefore, his influence likely diminished the farther one travelled East and South. The west only endured without his influence because of the Numenorians. Without any wizards in Harad, I suppose he may have had more influence there, but the blue wizards likely set up some strongholds opposed to him in Rhun. Eastern dwarves answered the call of Thrain when Thror was killed by Azog, so some of them at least were opposed to Sauron. If some dwarves could hold out, then likely so did some elves and men. So in summary, the Moriquendi were both the Telleri and Avari. The former were the non-Noldor inhabitants of the west, the latter likely remained in Rhun. Some may have been corrupted by Morgoth. Just as the house of Finwe was mixed with Vanya and Falmari royalty in Valinor, the Telleri and Avari likely mixed as well to some extent. There is no mention of elven migration southwards, so that would be pure speculation. When Mordor arose in the Second Age the elves may have been repelled by his presence in the central region of the continent, fleeing further westwards or eastwards. This would have resulted in the lack of communication between the two groups and our lack of knowledge regarding areas beyond Mordor.

@DarthGandalfYT

3 жыл бұрын

They get a few mentions. You obviously have folk like the Nandor, but other than them, some of them crept westwards over time. Some even reached Beleriand, hiding in secluded forests or caves, many of them disliking their more "civilised" cousins. I believe it's also said that there were no Avari west of the Misty Mountains in the Third Age, so all of them are either in Lothlorien, Mirkwood or still far to the east.

Is that Tom Bombadil's theme from LOTRO playing at the beginning?

@DarthGandalfYT

3 жыл бұрын

It sure is.

@joaoreis8139

3 жыл бұрын

@@DarthGandalfYT nice touch, that was my home's soundtrack in LOTRO, back when I played it. Seems like ages now

What is the source to what you said in 7:24 ?

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

It's a deduction from information in the LOTR Appendices. The Dunedain of Cardolan are said to have been wiped out, but Men still lived in Tharbad, and in parts of Minhiriath/Enedwaith, implying that they were Middle Men.

Is there any information of how the Elves migrated their kingdoms as a result of the sinking of Beleriand due to the war of wrath?

@Jw0808

3 жыл бұрын

Not that im sure of, but I think the Sinking of Beleriand didnt happen overnight probably over a couple years, thus many Sindar probably wandered east. Although I think Cirdan and Gil-Galad sailed from the Isle of Balar to Mithlond with many Sindar and Noldor

Damn. Imagine a land the size of France formerly rich in people and culture now almost completely abandoned by human civilisation after centuries of war, pestilence and famine.

it seems like the elves in lindon just omega chilled for the entire third age. i wonder how many of the remained by the time of the war of the ring id assume atleast 5-10 k total inhabitants

What about Drughu people?

@DarthGandalfYT

3 жыл бұрын

Most of them lived a bit south in Druwaith Iaur. They will feature when I do a video on Gondor's people.

Who were the men of Lossoth?

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

They're a secretive, unfriendly race of Men who dwell in the frozen lands around the Bay of Forochel.

Pop

THE PROFESSOR. WOULD BE WELL PLEASED!!!

interesting how by the end of the third age, Eriador is basically post apocalyptic

@DarthGandalfYT

2 жыл бұрын

Post-apocalyptic for some, perfect for others.

Last time I was this early, Beleriand still existed

I really enjoy the majority of your videos. However, your non relationship with Thorn: ð Ð dh is very annoying. It grates when you fail to pronounce dh as th. If Tolkien saw fit to use this grammatical form, surely it is only respectful for everyone to follow suit. To wilfully ignore the convention, for me at least, is disrespectful.

First

Great video