I'm 28. I became a Catholic when I was 22 (grew up Episcopalian). I never new Catholicism before Vatican II, but I am enthralled by the beauty and solemness of the Tridentine Mass. I sense that many other young Catholics feel the same way.

@wz5165

Жыл бұрын

Good on God and on you!

@tenaciousb4731

Жыл бұрын

It's funny that a lot of young Converts never knew of the original mass, but have this inherent instinctive idea of it. Almost as if it was familiar when they finally went to one. I wonder if this had something to do with older media preserving this depiction.

@rasthavas8275

Жыл бұрын

be careful not to confuse appreciation of art with religion

@williamsibree4286

Жыл бұрын

i don't. Most of it is silent and wihout any participation by the congregation. I'm glad Pope Fracis has banned it exceptin a very few designated churches.

@ecampbell17

Жыл бұрын

I also joined the church at age 21 from a protestent background. I felt I had finally found the God give moral authority on earth to live as Christ taught us. About six months later I attended my first TLM. The reverence and deference of both the clergy and laity overwhelmed me. It's not just the art and spectacle, it's God infront of your eyes. It's the priest praying with the people, not turning his back on the crucifix to pray at the people. My home parish has a dwindling population of septuagenarians and older, whereas when I attend St Clements Parish in Ottawa, the church is full to bursting with young and old alike. Vatican II no doubt did some good things, but in removing centuries of beautiful worship and reforming into something that really can't draw a crowd is sad for the body of Christ. There is nothing in the Novus Ordo mass that makes me feel like I'm about to receive the most gracious gift of all time the was saying "Domine non sum dignus" and then kneeling to recieved the Lord.

As a late 20s cradle Catholic in South Africa, I wouldn't look at Africa as a positive simply because of numbers. The church is becoming a product of the era. Allow the TLM to live freely alongside the Novus Ordo

@justinreany1514

Жыл бұрын

That can't happen as people have grown bored with the commkn banality of the Novus Ordo as it is done in 95% of parishes. The TLM parishes are growing and that is a major problem for the "Spirit of Vatican II" types.

@Numenorean921

Жыл бұрын

exactly, the part he left out is that the church is currently restricting it's tradition. If the novus ordo works for people in africa that's great, but if the Traditional Latin Mass is also bringing people to Christ why block that?

@ugandancatholicguy

Жыл бұрын

As a Ugandan myself, I find that many Western people are misinterpreting the stats from Africa. Many people don't go to Mass because they recognise the physical reality of Jesus in the Eucharist. Many of them go for Mass for the social vibe and entertainment. The choir is an essential part of the NOM in Africa. If the choir is magnificent, people will come for Mass. And they will leave without knowing what the Mass is about. The Priests' homilies are not about sin and Hell and eternal salvation, they're not even about the Eucharist. They tend to mostly be about politics and social issues and money. Many of our Priests are living in sin. Many Catholics are receiving the Eucharist sacrilegiously. Few people go for confession at least once a month. Many Catholics also pray from evangelical churches. They need to listen to serious African Catholics concerning the state of the Church in Africa, and not just draw their own abstract conclusions from the statistics presented to them.

@humbledandgrateful7411

Жыл бұрын

Great point... and some very insightful comments that followed it. Thank you. This vid was disappointing. Very!

@patrickmelling8404

Жыл бұрын

@@justinreany1514 indeed this is true except that the 60's rite appeals to a lot of old people, while the revived old.rite around here attracts many young adults and families,.also older people from tough circumstances, who are looking for that deeper order and spiritual beauty. Its a generational divide.

I am 88. I lived and worked in Rome during the Council, and in the late 1960’s worked as a translator in the Vatican. I think the decisions have largely not been implemented as intended, and this rests largely on the shoulders of some bishops not being courageous and firm enough, and many priests not studying the documents enough. +

@tomgreene1843

Жыл бұрын

Could not agree more....no adult faith promotion .

@fr.hughmackenzie5900

Жыл бұрын

Not least updating scholasticism in the light of the fact that, “the human race is passing from a rather static concept of the order of things to a more dynamic, evolutionary one" (G&S 5), yet staying faithful to "the doctrine of the Church concerning God, man and the world" (G&S, 62).

@marypinakat8594

Жыл бұрын

@@tomgreene1843 I guess you and I belong precisely in that bracket. It took Vatican II to say that it is the bounden duty of each baptized to promote the faith. I do believe more number of the laity is equipped today than earlier but the fact is also that they are only like drops in the ocean. Bishops indeed have their role. But let all and each Catholic assume and fulfill their role too. Bishops, Priests/religious and Laity, let's all embrace our own duty while praying earnestly and supporting each other generously.

@exerciserelax8719

Жыл бұрын

That must have been an amazing experience! Hopefully the Church will implement V2 more faithfully.

@tomgreene1843

Жыл бұрын

@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 Ah the Scholastics...Aquinas had a great and subtle intellect.....some of those who wrote /write about him did not.

Maybe!? Not maybe. Definitely! People do not believe as they used to when I was a child and adolescent. People were not taught the faith after Vatican II . Good catechesis ceased.

As a Catholic, I particularly have nothing against the Second Vatican Council. I really don't know much about it. I just love Jesus Christ and concentrate a lot on staying on track.

@Zadir09

22 күн бұрын

It would be alright if they would just offer both masses. There's no reason why a church can't offer both NO and TLM. Many elderly people long deeply for the mass they remember as a child, it feels cruel for the Pope to continue restricting the availability of TLM

"By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matt 7:16)

I'm 56, and my older sister and I attended Catholic school (a small school, K-8). During a discussion, we both agreed that neither of us learned anything about our faith. I don't even remember being taught how to go through the Bible. My knowledge has come from my searching and reading and finding informative videos such as Word on Fire. I would often hear others say, "Oh, you were born after Vatican II." This comment seemed to me as if they were saying that I wasn't educated properly in the faith. I didn't even know how to pray a rosary. I asked a close friend in my early 20's. It was embarrassing. Seriously, where did the ball get dropped?

@ColdWarPrepper

Жыл бұрын

I am 70 - raised in Catholic school through High School and didn't come to know my faith until the new Catechism. I was in my 20's when Vatican II became commonly implemented throughout the church. I think that the Catechism is the crowning glory of Vatican II

@sroscher53

Жыл бұрын

The post V II leadership permitted the misinterpretation of the teachings and practices of the Council. As a result we lost the sense of the sacred that had been a Hallmark of Roman Catholicism.

@bobtosi9346

Жыл бұрын

If you’re 56 you were born before V2 went through

@GerriBauer

Жыл бұрын

I'm sorry you had that experience. My Catholic school experience in the 1960s was the opposite. It was grounded in our faith and gave me a foundation that has carried me through life (I'm 66, so I guess big changes occurred during that 10 year difference in our educations.). I will be forever grateful to the Sisters of Mercy who shepherded my K-8 education.

@TrixieCalhoun

Жыл бұрын

@bobtosi9346 So V II was implemented after 1967? I was in elementary school through the 1970's. So if I was born before V II, it didn't happen until 1980; if I read your statement correctly.

I'm reading G.K. Chesterton's collected writings right now - "Heretic, Orthodoxy, and The Everlasting Man" Two points - 1. whether in the US, in Germany, or in South Korea when the Priest said Dominus vobis cum, I knew the response was Et cum spiritu tuu. So, I could actively participate in Mass wherever I was stationed. 2. I feel like the focus of attention (adoration) has shifted from the Eucharist (which we all faced together) to the priest.

@mikesewchok5978

Жыл бұрын

TOTALLY agree.

@ntmn8444

Жыл бұрын

Omg silly arguments. 1. I have been to Novus Ordo mass in English, Latin, Spanish, Korean, Italian…the point of it is that I respond in my language, but clearly, the reason I respond at the right time is because the order of the mass is exactly the same no matter the language. Just because we changed the responses from Latin to vernacular doesn’t mean you can’t just walk into a Chinese mass right now and be able to respond. 2. The focus is still on Jesus (Eucharist). Again, having the knowledge of where he is and acknowledging his presence helps in these situations. The priest facing out to the people just calls people to be a part of the worship.

@krishyyfan5153

Жыл бұрын

did you forget that the priest is an ALTER CHRISTUS??.... He becomes a living sacrament when he celebrates the Mass... 🙄....

@ColdWarPrepper

Жыл бұрын

@@krishyyfan5153 Didn't forget, was never taught that and can't find it in the current catechism - would you be kind enough to provide the paragraph number for that, thanks in advance

@ColdWarPrepper

Жыл бұрын

@@ntmn8444 Help me understand, is this response Christian love and teaching as per the faith or mockery and divisive (silliness)? Just trying to put it in the right bucket - spirit inspired or not?

"Look at the votes," but did the Council Fathers know what they were signing up for? The implementation turned out to be far more radical than the changes the documents mandated.

@zachsmith5515

Жыл бұрын

they really didn't know

@Orthodoxology

9 ай бұрын

Did they know in Vatican I? Many bishops opposed it

I remember being in grade school when the changes started. The third statement of this discussion is exactly what happened in my head! Growing up from around a 10 year old as life was getting tough (so I thought as a 10+ year old) being in a Catholic grade school I always felt that the church was this solid reliable stalwart. Then the changes started, then more and more...threw me for a loop from which I never recovered.

@jereuter01

Жыл бұрын

Same experience. If anything I now loathe the Catholic Church top to bottom. So corrupt, hypocritical, homosexuality and pedophilia run rampant, watered-down treatment of pro-abortion laity and worse open-arms embrace of pro-abortion Catholic politicians by the Pope. It is worse now than when Luther and the Protestant Reformation.

@tdioxin2658

Жыл бұрын

I went to a catholic all-girls boarding school in the mid seventies, and they didn’t even OFFER Latin class! I was SO disappointed, as I’m really good at learning languages… I came to dislike the vernacular, as we have lost our sacred language !

@countryboyred

10 ай бұрын

@@johnfisher247I agree. I feel sorry for all the traditional Catholic folks. Seems like all their heritage and tradition is being stripped from them.

My husband and I, and therefore our four living children, wouldn’t be Catholic today without the videos of Bishop Barron. We converted in 2020. We are very traditional people: we homeschool our children, we live on a homestead in rural Appalachia, my husband works from home, and our family hierarchy is very traditional. But we have always loved, from the first simply military mass we attended on a base in Germany, vernacular masses. We love and value the TLM too, but we don’t have a special preference for it. That is pretty surprising to the people who meet us! But mass isn’t really an exercise in culture or personality. I don’t know what the answers to all this are, I am not about to argue with the authority of the church. That’s what I was accepting when I became Catholic, after all. I am no great theologian, only a simple homeschooling mother, but I am a lover and student of history, and through that lens I do know that our entire culture and the “west” as a whole have decided that God is an unnecessary, antiquated notion no longer needed. And I think that would be the case even if V II had never occurred. My daily act of radical subversion to this is to try to love my family. Changing diapers, washing dishes, doing our taxes, taking care of the farm animals. I can’t change the world. All I can hope to do is work and pray, pray and work, and by the grace of God the vapor of this life will end with our reunification with Him. Pray for our Church, pray for the Pope, our Bishops, our countries. And love our families & communities.

@anonymous-pi3oz

Жыл бұрын

I agree the decline in church attendance etc, would have continued with or without V II

@tonybamber1137

Жыл бұрын

I agree.

@thesouthernshirehomestead

Жыл бұрын

@@anonymous-pi3ozSecularism is the order of the day. Lord, have mercy.

@carolynmscotti827

Жыл бұрын

People are heading for and packing the Catholic Churches offering the Traditional Latin Mass, because as soon as they enter the Church, they are greeted with the feeling within, of total love, devotion, honor, respect, for our Lord. The quietness of the worshippers, as they kneel and pray, pray their Holy Rosaries, before the Mass has begun, reminds us, as to why we are there. The women wearing their chapel veals and the men dressed neatly is another way respect is shown to our Lord. Kneeling and receiving the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity on the tongue, as to not receiving in the hand, where partials of our Lord land on the floor and are trampled and stepped on, does not occur when receiving our Lord on the tongue. These faithful knowing that, Jesus cannot be taken, if we are not in the state of grace. I could go on and on. The TLM Masses are packed and growing, because people have found what they were searching for, Jesus. Where Novus Ordo Masses are offered with the same love, respect, honor and devotion, Churches are growing with the faithful!.

@ntmn8444

Жыл бұрын

My friend, you actually understand what it means to be Catholic better than most of these comments. Finally! A kindred spirit. I actually reverted to Catholicism around the same time as your conversion. I don’t feel robbed, I don’t feel any type of way toward any specific mass. My focus has been on learning and mastering what Jesus taught.

"Was Vatican II a failure?" is like the questions, "Was the French Revolution a failure?" or "Was the Bolshevik Revolution a failure?".

The Council of Trent was always accepted and loved.

Why does the Pope put so much emphasis on suppressing the Tridentine Mass? I don't understand. Wouldn't it be more logical to allow both forms of the mass and for Catholics to choose which one brings us closer to the Church?

I'm a new Catholic and I was certainly drawn in by the Latin mass. The younger generation that has any interest in converting is yearning for what they lacked: tradition, heritage, stalwart leadership in faith, and an general agnosticism towards the spirit of the age. We were raised in a secular, atheistic culture that robbed us of the sacred and we want it back. Although I don't understand fully all the implications of Vatican II, I know that the mass as it stands has some challenges for younger converts like me. The aesthetics are often not austere, not holy. We want to worship God and we want to enter a holy space where we can leave the world behind to focus of the mass and the prayers of the church. For us, that does mean a certain nod to the past, not the past of the 1960's but the long past, the eternal. Guitar strumming and cajon beat boxes will never invoke this for us. Maybe for our parents it makes them feel more close to the mass, but for us and for any generations after, it is just corny, and fundamentally secular. I think Brian Holdsworth made this point, if you allow one generation to define the aesthetic, it will ultimately end up outdated and be in constant need of updating. This is what Tradition is supposed to solve. While I think I understand the intention was to bring the mass back down to the laity and allow more opportunities for them to participate and bring their modern lives to the table, this was a big error. What was not understood was just how corrupt the lay culture had become and how manipulated it is now. It is not a real, organic, culture. It is the result of decades of cultural warfare, propaganda, "public relations", and nihilistic deconstruction philosophies. Ethnicity has been replaced by consumer choice. It's would be one thing if, say, a pre-modern Irish folk style was injected into the mass music in Ireland; that was a real culture that still possessed the ability to invoke the sacred. Not to mention, the musical culture (I harp on that because I am in the music ministry) that came in in the 60's was fundamentally rooted in a radical "freedom" movement that cannot coexist within the church. In fact, a reaction to this movement is largely what is bringing new converts in. I think there is still an opportunity to correct the missteps. Maybe it starts with admitting the short-sightedness and optimism of the 60's, and let's have a collective reality check about where the world is, and more importantly, where our souls really are 60 years later. Hindsight is 20/20 and there's no reason why we can't start steering the church back into a more appropriate synthesis of tradition and participation. If you want to save souls, you have to be honest about the state they are in.

Vatican II worked for me. I'm now a kingdom's servant, I'm now a Lord's mighty warrior. God bless

Why did the church abandon the use of wearing their “religious dress”. As a doctor an order of nuns came to my office regularly. They complained that they didn’t get respect on the street or in stores. That didn’t get a discount in stores 31:01 31:01 anymore. I told them because you’re not wearing your habit anymore. How would people know who you are? Then there wasn’t any interest joining their order any more.

@joemarten980

Жыл бұрын

Are we participating for (mostly) our benefit, or to participate in, at God's invitation, the saving work of His Son both for others and ourselves?

@sharonmilde380

Жыл бұрын

To the question of "religious dress," it seems to me that the habit shows the secular public that one is in the Service of the Lord. I taught at a convent boarding school, and the majority of the sisters in the convent there were dressed like anyone's elderly aunt in her house frock. Several sisters who were involved with the actual school wore veils and street-length habits. In the convent's museum, there were scratchy-looking wool habits and wimples that had to be starched and crimped with an iron tool. It is easy to see why those were shed like last year's leaves. But the moderate, probably permanent-press, updated habits and short veils impart respect and recognition. Why not???

We have a lot of very conservative African priests in our diocese in Pennsylvania. Thank God for them.

Bishop Barron is so right, cultural change caused people to fall away from the church. People live in the moment, no law(s) for me. Then people followed others to be nonbelievers. Vatican II was not the failure, it was hope and help for people. Just as God/Jesus/Mary are hope in teachings. We the people fail through their free will. Then when judgement day comes, they will say, the majority of people did what I did I followed them. God will say you should of followed me, and not followed mankind into sinful ways. 🙏

@ntmn8444

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. People largely ignore the fact that there were social movements whose whole purpose was precisely to chuck everything traditional. Over and over, the one thing I’ve learned from studying the Gospel is that you have to meet people where they are.

Vatican 2 was the first step to converting Catholicism into Protestantism with a pope.

@marysisak2359

15 күн бұрын

Absolutely. I refer the the NO Catholics as Catholic/Protestant hybrids.

The reason we resist it is mainly what it did to the Mass...for most people this is their rock...and the new Mass it just too different from the old...The new Mass and the way it is celebrated is in conflict with the pre Conciliar Mass... There is too much that came out of Vatican II that conflicts with pre Conciliar teachings and that is not addressed by the Church...Allowing that conflict to fester and harden is a mistake...stating we " can't go back" flies in the face of Vatican II which tells us we are going back indeed to a time at the beginning of the Church...the way things were in antiquity....

We torn up our beautiful churches organs for guitars and dancing with a piece of plywood where the high alter used to be

Instead of examining the zeitgeist through the lens of Catholic teaching, the Church is doing the opposite.

I love listening to how clearly you state things! I was 6 years old when the council started. I don't remember the traditional Latin Mass. My father is Catholic and my mother Lutheran, but neither one knew very much about Christianity apart from going to Church on Sunday and sending us to CCD. My father is also retired Army, so I lived in many different places and catechesis wasn't strong. I used to complain to my husband about our lack of knowledge of our faith and he reminds me always that things happen in God's time. It's easy to blame it on the council,, but when I read the documents of Vatican II, I found them beautiful. God put me in a diocese that offered ongoing faithful education. My own children and now my grandchildren are growing in the faith of the Church. They are loving God with their hearts and their minds. I do see them as the fruit of the council; not a blind faith in repetitive traditions, but a constant learning and growing in relationship with Jesus Christ.

@30Salmao

Жыл бұрын

@@tick5485 you should consider what you think of children. What are they? From where and to where they go? If you see chindren as a necessary part of they parents (because without one of them, or if the conceptuon was in another time: that child would never existed, would be another person). By the same token: love meets rules. You would never be a good oarent if you see your child going to a bad path without any warning or help to prevent it from those with more experience. Of course, all people are diferent (and also similar in other ways), maybe your child is somewhat diferent from you and will reach another places, another groups, etc. OK, that's part of a child which came from they parents e grow to become independent. But, all this beeing said, if you truly belive in the truth of Christ and His Church. There is nothing more important than to guide your offspring to Jesus. That's what the ateists and the weak of faith amd heart don't get it. If a religious person truly believe, she must preach to her child, that's the same to the ateist to defend his secular moral principles or any other teaching any parent in any point of the globe would do: the best they can to help the child to be incredible.

@grandmajoyce2

Жыл бұрын

I grew up before Vatican 11, and there were very many knowledgeable and devout people then too. My generation grew up in the primary grades with one book: "The Baltimore Catichetism ", and I feel it presented a very good grounding in the basics of the faith. Many people went to daily Mass and Communion. Parents were obliged to send their kids to the Parish grades school and tuitions were very inexpensive. The most it cost in the school I attended as a child was $30.00 a year for one child, and for each additional child it was cheaper still. If you had more than three, they attended free. So all families could be assured that their kids would get 9 years (including kindergarten) of solid training in the faith. Most kids and the families were devout back then, and were very well behaved.. There was a great devotion to Mary too. We had "May Processions" each year and paraded around the grounds singing songs to mary and placing a crown of flowers on her statue's head. The whole school and the parents of the students attended.. Not all parents could send their kids to Catholic high schools in my area, outside a large city, but my parish had a Junior Newman Club, Junior Sadality, and kids could be members of adult choirs. I"m sure there were other There were retreats for teenagers, as well as adult retreats. These were things I attended as a kid. There were plenty of ways to connect with the parishes back then that kept members connect to their faith and parish families. .

@cathybranly1839

Жыл бұрын

@@grandmajoyce2 oh yes, I do believe that. And my father was faithful in bringing us to Church and to CCD. He just didn't have a deep knowledge of faith or of the Bible and couldn't answer my questions. I don't think he grew up in a community like yours. And because my father was in the military, I didn't experience a consistent parish life. God does work things out for us in the end. You are very blessed to have grown up in that environment.

@patrickmelling8404

Жыл бұрын

@@tick5485 actually we used to think like this as kids, challenging everything. Catechism was taught at school but seemed to us absurd and out of touch. I totally get why V2 had to happen, but youth emancipation in the Sixties was a Sixties thing. The children at my TLM church do well with locally run Catechism, as a foil to the baleful influence of secular society which itself tries to indoctrinate children to atheist ways of thinking

@ccbarr58

Жыл бұрын

Right on! We went to ccd and mass. Not enough $to send 5 kids to private school. We were military too. Mom and Dad didn't go but their friends went. I could always ask them a question

Vatican 2 is not what the churches are doing today. St Paul the 6th would be super upset if he saw how the masses, mostly empty, are. The only churches I see growing are the TLM masses where most of them I barely can find a space to sit if I come slightly late. NO and TLM are the same in terms of giving the sacraments. However, I dont see why a lot of the things were done away from the old mass, because those things are what keep you looking forward to God, such as first friday and saturday devotion or teachings of fatima or the scapular.

@anonymous-pi3oz

Жыл бұрын

Do you think the number of Church attending catholics would have remained the same or increased, if vatican II never happened?

Bishop Barron, I just heard you say that the Council was not a failure , but that it was poorly implemented. I am curious as to what you think were those aspects that were poorly implemented and what as the new bishop of your diocese can you change to reflect the intentions of the Council.

Thank you Bishop Robert. You open so much up for us. 🙏

@donnahodges5596

Жыл бұрын

Bishop is awesome

Well, just look at the fruits. Did we see the promised revitalization in the church, or a decline?

@robertsullivan4773

Жыл бұрын

Actually just read the Catholic church is the only one that's growing.

@folofus4815

Жыл бұрын

@@robertsullivan4773 The Catholic Church is growing because of the massive birthrate in Africa, not because of anything having to do with Vatican 2

@robertsullivan4773

Жыл бұрын

@@folofus4815 didn't say it did, but it is growing.

@wildplumbeauty

Жыл бұрын

I converted to Catholicism 2 years ago and I guess I can humbly say I am a Vatican ll success story. If my local diocese or Parish priest had made me feel unwelcome I would have just turned around and left because I was very emotionally battle scarred at the time and needed love from the Church.

@folofus4815

Жыл бұрын

@@wildplumbeauty I’m glad you have become Catholic, that’s awesome! As far as feeling unwelcome, I don’t think it’s the case that the church wasn’t welcoming before Vatican 2, we certainly had converts before the 1970s

The TLM should not be restricted. TLM parishes are thriving. Embrace the tradition for those who want it. Vatican II did need to happen, but we should have never lost the reverence of our faith. Novus Ordo can be reverent, I've seen it.

@marydelfino2542

Жыл бұрын

Well said! However we NEED bishops (like Barron) who DEMAND that Novus Ordo be reverent. It starts with every SINGLE Diocese and parish bringing back the Sacraments, RECONCILIATION, as JOB number 1.

People are leaving the Church, not because of Vii, but because the Church has left them. . . ceased speaking to the deepest longing of the human heart.

@marysisak2359

15 күн бұрын

Exactly.

Thank you Bishop for not denying us the possibility of either mass. They are both part of our faith, both part of our heritage. Both express vital truths. Thank you for not bashing Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, and thank you for not eradicating the Traditional Latin Mass. You are a voice of reason for me and you always inspire me to be a better Catholic. Thanks Bishop

@Photo513Graphy

Жыл бұрын

TLM people are so attached to their issue, to the exclusion of everything else, even to the point of denying the Council. Pope Francis is correct to provide a corrective to the off the hook proliferation of their divisive behavior.

@johnschuh8616

Жыл бұрын

The worst thing about the New Mass is its truncated nature. The dismissal comes too soon after Communion, with hardly any time for reflection. Many people walk out immediately afterwards.

@ntmn8444

Жыл бұрын

@@Photo513Graphy exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

@sneed3529

Жыл бұрын

​@@Photo513Graphy Though shall not bear false witness.

The implementation was a complete failure

There were some good intentions- but ultimately terrible consequences

@fr.hughmackenzie5900

Жыл бұрын

the collapse in Britain started in 1960

@justinreany1514

Жыл бұрын

The fruit has been pretty rotten! I have read the octet of the Council and many if the docs are quite nice and beautiful. Others are purely speculative and have no binding authority on the faithful such as Nostrae Aetate.

@erikriza7165

Жыл бұрын

Brett Gurda You are so right!!!

@erikriza7165

Жыл бұрын

@@justinreany1514 You are SO right!!

@tomgreene1843

Жыл бұрын

There were terrible consequences from TRENT.

Very helpful insights from our Bishop. I was 6 when the Council began, and my formative years as a Catholic were lived in the implementation of the Council teachings. We talked out Faith matters in our home, and we were a family where reflection on the news, politics, philosophy and the connection between Faith and Culture were ever part of the discourse. Even as a child, it seemed clear to me that the tensions over implementation were not about the vernacular Liturgy, or fasting or taking Communion by the hand. The tension was in the diametric perceptions of what needed to change, and what could not change. A large number of Catholics wanted the Church to liberalize teachings on divorce, birth control, premarital cohabitation, women clergy, female altar servers, etc etc etc. All the same gender and sexual liberty issues we still grapple with today (though fewer then). Those Catholics wanted the Church to get on board with modernity. Vatican II DID NOT DO SO. But because certain practices had been altered, some given more to diocesan level discretion, they saw these as cracks in the wall; not a "red light" in front of their agenda, but a "yellow light", which left them discretion on how to interpret Church Law. The Council did not go where they wanted, but they thought that the changes that were made left open a window for more liberal interpretation and more freewheeling practice. These things I clearly perceived as underway by the time I was just 12. The Bishop naturally looks back on the Council and ensuing years from an ecclesiastical framework. My experience and views were formed at "ground zero", so to speak. What went wrong after the Council wasn't the Council's fault. It was as much a sociological as an ecclesiastical phenomenon. The question before the house remains: Is the Church to transform the World, or will the World co-opt the Church? Thankfully, the Council said, the former. Dogma is universal, customs local. The Council never misled the Faithful, but some of the Faithful twisted the teachings to sound like what they wanted to hear. That is my abiding recollection.

@mortensimonsen1645

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your insight. As a convert i 2021 and born in 73 in Protestant country (Norway) I doubt I would have found my way to the Church without V2. I am reading all the V2-documents now, and I see only good things there. I think God challenges each and every person in various ways - unfortunately many couldn’t handle it. Besides, all churches in the West have declined - but I do believe our Church will now turn the tide.

@AmalAms

Жыл бұрын

That's amazing reflection and genuine sharing. Thanks for it.

@tzavitz

Жыл бұрын

Nice reply, well thought out. I'm about the same age as you and recollect that even at my Catholic school, all manner of changes were being made by liberal thinkers that did things "in the spirit of Vatican II" that were clearly at odds with Church teachings on all the subjects you listed. I think the idea of "change" took hold and allowed those that wanted to co-opt the Church got their proverbial foot in the door. I like your insights and totally agree with you.

@GerriBauer

Жыл бұрын

Yes, my recollections are similar to yours and I watched everything unfold within the same age bracket as you. I was in Catholic elementary school at the time and had a close-up view. I remember welcoming the change to the vernacular in Mass because new understandings opened up to me. The first "folk" Mass, however, with guitar music was a shocker, and not a welcome one. Today, I appreciate how chant and Latin prayers are integrated into the Mass in my local parish.

@ryanautrey2269

Жыл бұрын

One of the enduring effects of the Council was to seem to put a stamp of approval on the end of the Church's missions. If the Church suddenly approved of religious freedom (as put forth in Dignitatis Humanæ), then the missions would shift from proselytism to defending other religions. If the Church seemed to abandon opposition to other religions, now the emphasis would be on unity with them. Can the Church forget who she is? Can it be the case that the Church of Christ is truly divided between Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant? Or is the Church truly One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic; while the protestants and schismatic "Orthodox" are unfortunately cut off from the Church? Is it as Francis said?... that good Lutherans have the true faith of Christ? ... that proselytizing the "Orthodox" is a grave sin? Is he not basing these outrageous claims on the teachings of the Council? Yes, the Council did it's utmost to neuter the true mission of the Catholic Church.

The question isn’t even worth asking.. it is a failure!

@MM22272

Жыл бұрын

So also thought some of the apostles and disciples of Christ about Jesus' death on the Cross. Still others have said the same about the Bible or the Catholic religion or even it's denominational offshoots. Vatican II is steeped in tradition while at once fair in reasonable changes such as with masses said in a given culture's local language. Having said that, as with Catholics at any time, mortals can mis-interpret and mis-apply or simply fail to apply what they should from Vatican II. The main point is: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's easy to do when frustrated, but it's an over-reaction. Blessings upon you.

@sikobaya9298

Жыл бұрын

To be so closed minded as to refuse to even think about a question... I will pray for you.

@MM22272

Жыл бұрын

@@sikobaya9298 Excellent point, but it can be so hard when one may be right at the surface level and intellectual pride blind-sides it. That's why prayers are in order to foster the requisite humility to dislodge and un-coil pride from one's intellect.

Bring back the good, true and beautiful. When the NO Mass is so frequently conducted in a cheap manner, it severely undermines the Church. Church discipline is required to make the NO everything it is supposed to be ASAP! I have never been to a NO (it could be my area!) that can match a chanted TLM. The TLM Mass I attend has a huge amount of converts and is growing.

@allthenewsordeath5772

Жыл бұрын

Your prayers are needed, the current fellow in charge of liturgical matters in Rome has a deep, inexplicable and unabashed hatred for the Latin mass, so they from the rumors, I hear, intend to release a apostolic constitution heavily restricting it.

@The12thSeahorse

Жыл бұрын

The Mass was severely injured by the ‘Peter, Paul and Mary folk music’. It’s became a distraction, especially when the music was played or sang poorly.

@ryanautrey2269

Жыл бұрын

Sacrosanctum Concilium did not need to implement the novus ordo missæ by itself. All the Council had to do was authorize change- even radical adaptation, as it explicitly does- and assign the changes to some unknown groups in the future. Sacrosanctum Concilium didn't need to prescribe the novus ordo itself, because it literally wrote a blank check for those who would implement it. Read it.

@allthenewsordeath5772

Жыл бұрын

@@ryanautrey2269 I think the greatest thing that church leaders can learn from Vatican II is that they really need to be more specific, firm, and clearly stated when it comes to future documentation.

Not just Catholicism my friend. I asked my Protestant sister why she doesn't go to Church. Her response was that she hasn't found one that meets her needs yet. I get it! To agree! But talk about a secular world. The notion that, "I will go to Church if I can find one that meets and bends to my need." Religion, in general, is under fire and failing. But I guess that has been the case since it's inception. Even before Christianity. The nature of man in full display.

@user-pc8ee8sx7v

Жыл бұрын

Yes. Even worse for protestants. The church I gree up in now hangs gay pride flags out in front. Makes me weep. I've turned to Catholic mass instead. Please don't let that die too. My heart couldn't take it. Fight to keep your beautiful traditions alive.

It appears that some jimmies are about to be rustled

Bishop Robert Barron, I am from IL and lived in Mundelein, born in Joliet. I pray unceasingly for IL and my family, friends, and all who live there.

Cardinal George once said that, with the exception of inventing lots of jobs for lay people to do during Mass, we have not even begun to have any interior active participation, desired by the Council. And when it comes to the task of the laity to sanctify the temporal order, we have not begun that either.

I’ve got an idea re: not going back to mid-20th century Catholic Church in America: competition. Let the offering of the Mass as it was offered in mid-20th century America compete against the Novus Ordo. Let the faithful choose. This is a similar response to those who say we can never go back to a gold standard. I say, let gold compete against fiat and let Americans decide. Let all be decided in true freedom and under the banner of Heaven.

@seamusweber8298

Жыл бұрын

I've been suggesting this for years, let each parish offer both rites and let's see which rite draws more attendees. If the Tridentine Rite is no "threat" which is the Church terrified at its concelebration? Well said, Harry.

Not a catholic but i am 29 and came to faith in christ over the last 10 years. I think a big answer to why did we resist vatican 2 is that with so much hatred for the traditions of the west in the west, to have the traditions of a pillar of the west change is terrifying. I have found my way to joy and peace in my life through finding the traditions of the west and this is why i see the latin mass more appealing as someone interested on the outside.

@falcon6173

Жыл бұрын

You, my friend, are in the line of thought with Christ’s true bride, the Church, and you are hearing the Lord’s voice loud and clear. Let him take you by the hand, and he’ll lead you home. He’s waiting for you in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

@a.t.c.3862

Жыл бұрын

@@falcon6173 The Holy language of Pontius Pilate, which Jesus never spoke. 🙏 We remember that the important thing is not so much the precious perfume, but rather the fancy chunky bottle in which it is contained. 🙏

@richardbyrd2192

Жыл бұрын

Open your heart to the truth of the Catholic Mass. There you will find God waiting for you with open arms. If not now, then when? God is waiting…

@marccrotty8447

Жыл бұрын

kristoferjhess. The Vatican 2 changes in tone and behavior described by Bishop Barron are all negative. Look to the Latin Mass and traditional Catholicism. Much of what is offered by local Novus Ordo parishes is diluted and sometimes not orthodox.

Minute 23 is the perfect example of why VII failed. Declaring Catholic culture "defunct" created a void in the Church, and that void was filled by the World.

It was a complete failure. We let the communists and Freemasons change the faith to be more Protestant and worldly. “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

@anonymous-pi3oz

Жыл бұрын

This is QAnon style thinking

Vatican II was supposed to be pastoral, but it did nothing to improve opportunities for single Catholics to meet the opposite sex. Today Europe faces demographic winter, and the Pope has managed to notice it. Could you please comment on this.

@billanderson9908

Жыл бұрын

Hey, David, We might have to wait for a social council.

@dotkom9382

Жыл бұрын

I didn’t know that was the purpose of an ecumenical council. If you attend Mass regularly, becoming involved in your local parish might be a way to meet a likeminded person of the opposite sex.

@david_porthouse

Жыл бұрын

@@dotkom9382 Knowing what I know now, I would suggest that if opportunities to meet the opposite sex are scarce, then go and have a word with your parish priest. We are heading for demographic winter if you don't do that. Indeed there may be parish activities to join in, or there may not. There may be a neighbouring parish with more to offer. The social club in your own parish may be a men-only club, but the club in a neighbouring parish may offer better opportunities to meet the opposite sex. Consider joining pilgrimages and other activities. Generally put yourself in circulation. Perhaps your parish priest will have some useful suggestions to make. I am at loss to see the point of Vatican 2 if there wasn't any improvement in this area. The Pope is practically admitting this. It did nothing for those of us who like attending Nuptial Masses.

@habibturay9930

Жыл бұрын

I didn't know that. I love white catholic girls they're so beautiful inward and outward.

I've felt that there is a disconnect between the ancient mystical church which was alive and active for centuries and which produced so many authentic saints and the life of the Church as expressed in the liturgy and Catholic community - which hardly emphasizes the life of prayer and contemplation at all. It's as if one can be rescued by the sacramental alone, hence the crisis of the living body - the emphasis on the sacrament exceeds by far the emphasis on one's own striving for salvation. It's as if the Church is afraid to come out and say, as the gospels clearly demonstrate - that you have to work on your own salvation. This is also the instruction that we receive from so many who did that hard work and were rewarded with the abiding peace of Christ. For most of us, our satisfactions continue to be material - not spiritual. The spiritual hunger, IMO is not being sated in sacramental observation and feel good homilies.

Imagine, a council thinking they can improve the Mass better than the Holy Spirit. The level of hubris is astounding

@divinecomedian2

Жыл бұрын

Whom do you think guides the magisterium?

I was 7 when Vatican II came about. I loved the Latin masses. I have always felt bad to this day they removed that from Mass. Back then, you could attend Mass in any country and be able to participate. Now, unless you happen to speak the language of the country you are visiting, you silently participate. Sad.

I attended the Novus Ordo modern Catholic Church for 25 years, to help my wife raise our kids Catholic. I never converted to Catholicism. The services were light & almost silly, the priests told jokes, the music "ministry" was pop & amateurish, the deacons held communion, girl alter-servers, etc. Once I tried the Latin Traditional Mass, I saw something that was reverent, spiritual, & serious. Just what I needed. I'm in the process of converting now....but not for the Novus Ordo. It's an embarrassment.

@allthenewsordeath5772

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, the current management wants to stamp out the TLM as quickly as possible so that they can insist on continuing to do the things that go horribly until they magically start going right, and as a very smart Jewish man once said, that is the definition of insanity.

@WT-Sherman

Жыл бұрын

Welcome Home ! The changes to the liturgy after the Council were a catastrophic mistake. It’s a huge reason why 80% of Baptized Catholics in the US don’t attend. The Good Bishop is right about the cultural upheavals in the 1960s. But that is all the more reason why the Church needed to stay a strong Bulwark of truth and double down on the sense of the sacred in her liturgy. The Faithful needed a strong anchor to cling to through those turbulent times. Just the opposite happened.

@karinelangley4804

Жыл бұрын

I agree

@jimmyrumney4379

Жыл бұрын

100%

@treytrev

Жыл бұрын

💯

The historic Protestant churches also declined in the west and boomed in Africa in the last half of the 20th century; so it seems that Vatican 2 was not really responsible for either the decline or the growth, but other factors entirely

The ecclesio-managerial revolution and it's consequences has been a disaster for the human race.

@pionsetsarkosua8910

Жыл бұрын

And all the Church got was a lousy Uncle Ted from it.

In order to know if the growth of the church in Africa and Asia was due to Vatican, it must be taken into account the population growth of those continents and know whether the growth is proportional or not to that. For example, between 1980 and 2015, population in Africa grew from (roughly) 476 million to 1182 million - this means an increase of approximately 2,48x. For the same period of time, the number of catholics in Africa increased by 2.38x. These are rough estimates, and even though the growth rate of catholics in Africa appears lower than the population growth of that same continent given these numbers, during the same time period, the benefit of the doubt should be given, but there are no doubts that if it isn't lower, then it is at least proportionate. Therefore, given this, how can one infer from this that the church in Africa grew because of the second Vatican council, while at the same time, and as of right now, we are witnessing a monumental decline in the number of catholics in the countries who were mostly catholic (over 95% of the total population) before the second Vatican council was implemented?

We will know from its fruits: Massive decline in Church attendance Catholics no ling believing in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist Immodesty of dresses among church goers. massive apostasy Catholics generally stopped going to Confession. Catholic Church lost more souls after the council. Reform was needed. But it was horribly done. Imagine, banning kneeling and receiving Eucharist on tongue tell us, is this an epic win?

It certainly did not fulfill its hopes. But the bar was set pretty high. With respect to liturgical reform, I think it was a tragic failure. It does not inspire young Catholics, and the Church competes poorly for the attention of moderns.

Vatican II was possibly a good thing in the 1960s for the Twentieth Century ... however we are now in the 21stC. Odd to see/hear people trying to drag the RCs into the 1960s.

The church threw out mysticism

For most people, the context of Catholicism does not extend much beyond the boundaries of their parish, and is limited to Sunday Mass. When liturgy became so silly and trivialized, it would be hard to expect people to take anything seriously

Not just a failure, but an absolute abysmal failure that they refuse to admit.

@glennlanham6309

Жыл бұрын

so the Holy Spirit did wrong? that's literally what you are saying?

@ryanscottlogan8459

8 ай бұрын

Correct

Padre Pio..".follow the faith of your fathers." (Pre 1859)

It appears to me Catholicism in Africa is more in line with pre Councilior doctrinal and praxis orthodoxy. This is based soley upon having read Cardinal Sarah's wonderful book "God or Nothing" and observing African immigrant Catholics who now attend Mass in the States who appear to me to exhibit a greater degree of reverence and devotion than large numbers of their American brothers and sisters (there being more who will kneel to receive communion on the tongue, for instance). Of course, this does not answer the question my observation raises; namely, is catholicism in Africa actually preached and practiced in a manner that is more preconcilior or postconcilior?

As a convert I came into the Church long after Vatican II so know no other form of catholisism. I pose this thought, if Vatican II had not happened, what would our Church look like today? Would it be "failing" even worse or growing world wide as even North American's seem to be falling away. A very good friend who is protestant has voiced the same concerns (fears) about his Christian denomination. It's becoming a secular world I fear.

@joaogoncalves-tz2uj

Жыл бұрын

Modern Catholics would all be excomunicated by Pius XII. Roman Catholicism is dead and the "church" of vatican II is a heretical sect which promotes NOACHISM instead of Catholicism. Everything you hear about Catholicism after 1960 is false we do not have a Pope and only baptism is the valid sacrament.

@airfrere

Жыл бұрын

That's a very good question. As the good Bishop pointed out, it is a logical fallacy to state that since B came after A, B must have been caused by A. We will never know whether church attendance, missionary outreach, etc. would have been better or worse without Vatican II. Some will wonder how things could possibly be worse than they are now, but anyone who's been paying attention will know that things could always be worse. I, for one, think that things would have been worse if VII hadn't happened, but that's only my opinion.

@zachsmith5515

Жыл бұрын

no, without Vatican II the Catholic Church would be strong and vigorous and attracting converts (i'm a convert too and thank God I discovered the TLM).

@countryboyred

10 ай бұрын

The gates of hell won’t prevail against the church. Even if there is only 5 people in the world that still hold on to the true faith.

@francesbernard2445

7 ай бұрын

Thank you for sharing. Vatican II made it possible for us Christians who are not priests to become a house keeper to people from other nations with elders who were offering us tea and toast in a home where they were continuing to offer coins to idols without risking later being false accused of that being an occasion for sin. Without us feeling the need there to be within ourselves and in the expressions on our faces while turning down their offer to sit down with them in dialogue while regarding them there always as being only pagans to be avoided altogether as much as possible. Without us feeling afraid of later being false accused of trying to become a Roman Catholic priest too. How can we help people to become interested in becoming Christians while not neglecting the tabernacle without Vatican II?

Thank you Bishop Barron and Brandon Vogt. This is a hot topic in my family. So many young people seem to prefer TLM. I certainly do understand their criticisms and concerns of NO. HOWEVER, I LOVE that they want to return to The Church and follow the faith! I do not really understand why Parishes can't have a Latin Mass at 9am and NO at the other times. I also recall my mother, father, Grandmother, and numerous Irish aunts and uncles arguing about Vatican II which I did not understand as a child. I'm going to have to watch/ listen to this again, but I appreciate you addressing this issue. Would you do a Part II (yup, I saw it) and address the concerns of Mass of the Ages?? Please. please. My son believes every word in Mass of the Ages.

@tomgreene1843

Жыл бұрын

Have a listen to Allegri's MISERERE....and see what it invokes for you and your son.

@NidaIndelible

Жыл бұрын

I experienced the transition or changes after Vat. II in the Phils. We learned a lot from it. It's a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. Thanks be to God!🙏

Brothers and sisters! Spread the mission! Bring people to God! Be prepared for discussions and arguments! Share the Word on Fire mission! We are to spread the gospel and truth throughout a world that rejects it!

I think it was a failure. I have never seen honest and convincing arguments against traditionalist objections, and I am not just talking about the TLM, but everything. I believe the biggest problem for Vatican 2 is past Popes before the council, and holy saints and doctors of the church. It is all there for us to read. They spoke with extreme precision and clarity. An argument for Vat 2 letter of council may be argued, but that letter is not lived reality for 99.9% of catholics. Gregorian chant has pride and place, for example. When you read Pope Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XI and others, there are serious warnings for the Church, and it is obvious we did not heed those warnings but let our guard down and here we are. A Pope like St. Pius X or doctor and saint like Alphonsus Ligouri, holds serious weight. In my opinion, these great men do not seem to mesh well with Congar and the like. I will stick with tradition and great saints and doctors of the Church because it is safe.

The biggest gulf in misunderstanding I’ve seen is that when most everyday people say “Vatican II”, they mean the changes that the typical normie Catholic would have seen in parish life in the 1960s. Most people outside of the philosophy/theology crowd have no awareness of whatever documents the Vatican published at whatever date. Intellectuals typically see their faith as an intellectual or philosophical project, from which culture, customs, and practices extend as corollaries. The average everyday Catholic of 1965 saw the faith as a deposit of beliefs, traditions, cultural hallmarks, and a way of life (especially when it came to having many children). Then all of a sudden priests and other representatives of the church came along in the years after 65/70 and told them all that stuff wasn’t strictly speaking necessary. As a result, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, that deposit of faith/culture was swiftly abandoned and, seemingly systematically, Catholic families across the West lost their faith

Vatican II reached out to modernity and modernity didn’t reach back. Vatican II turned Catholicism beige. The church may have declined to the same numbers it is today but there would be adoration for the Eucharist and the sacraments would be revered.

The documents of V2 need to be revisited and its errors corrected.

My 2c as a young guy (34) converted from a protestant denomination. V2 gave us mass in the vernacular. That only happened a few hundred years too late! haha. It got us a new emphasis on the laity studying scripture. Such a good thing. We got a new emphasis on evangelization which Jesus asked us to do. It focused on building community relationships - nowadays we have ACTS retreats and tons of great stuff. BUT, V2 did mess one really big thing up. The church in the west is in decline (except Africa) especially where the V2 implimentation has been "strange"... We can't hide that elephant in the room. SO, perhaps not in the documents themselves is there anathema, but in the spirit that came out from it something went terribly wrong. I think what went most wrong was - we abandoned our tradition and tried to hide who we are in the name of ecumensim. Then we lost belief in the real presence of the eucharist. When we lost that, we lost clarity of truth and wisdom which comes from God through the eucharist and everything has snowballed from there in the church. Protestants lost that belief early on regarding the eucharist and immediately splintered into hundreds of denominations if you look at the history and timing of it all. As soon as they denied the real presence, division ensued. Here is an idea Bishop Barron. On special church days, holy days of obligation for example..lets take mainstream new-order churches and do a latin mass at them, with all the incense and prayers and traditional hymns. Let only the priest give the eucharist, and have people line up on their knees around the raised steps of the altar to receive it. In every church where the architecture is still reasonably feasible to do this kind of mass of course (one of the churches I go to is an octagon like a synagogue so you couldn't really do it there, but most churches you could still flip the altar around and just let the priest do his best and GO FOR IT! And let your average mainstream catholic attend it give them a little pamphlet so we and the priest can all butcher Latin together and stumble through the prayers. Get the choir together a couple extra times to practice some traditional hymns and chants. YOU WILL PACK THE CHURCH OUT THE DOORS I PROMISE YOU! I don't understand why Rome and the USCCB can't see this. Its like an obsessive love with the new mass and pride and denial that the old mass has anything to offer us spiritually - thats its like a dead stick in the mud. Just the opposite is true we should be promoting it! Just give it a chance! Attending latin mass was like a spiritual mega BOOSTER for me in my life (and all the young guys I've seen discover it!) Not every mass has to be a latin mass, but expose the laity to it at least once or twice a year, give them that connection to their ancestors and the history of the church and MANDATE hat it be done in every parish at least once a year. It will change everything! You should try it Bishop Barron - you are the big boss dawg now up there in Minnesota! You should do it and see what happens! My hunch is if you are the first one to give it a shot I bet you will pack the house it'll probably end up in the news all over the country and a lot of other Bishops are gonna start trying it too if they see you do it. And at the very least you will certainly put a big ol' grin on JPII and Pope Benedict's face in heaven. Thats worth something! Shalom!

@marccrotty8447

Жыл бұрын

pjburges. You have many good thoughts. Learn the Latin Mass and its theology of the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Novus Ordo removes many prayers, has the Priest turned away from God, focuses on the people and makes the Mass a community meal. Look to tradition.

Tridentine Mass in ecclesial Latin, and Tridentine Mass in vernacular; two liturgies each day for the yearly calendar; one liturgy in official universal language, one liturgy in the vernacular. Best of both worlds, and no change in the praxis of the liturgy. Saints Cyril and methodius didnt need to "reform or renew" Chrysostom or Basil's liturgy; they just gifted the slavs ecclesial slavonic in place of greek

when will Catholics get with the programme ?? Maybe ask Bishops!! So much that the council never discussed we find today.

@joanlynch5271

Жыл бұрын

Let's make a new rule: you can only criticize yourself and your own religion.

@donnahodges5596

Жыл бұрын

What do you mean “get with the program?”

The good shepard. Thank you Bishop🙏🏻

As a Protestant my biggest criticism of Catholicism was that the Mass was in Latin and that Catholics didn't read the Bible. The first time I actually attended Mass I was shocked that it was in English, that they had 3 readings followed by a short homily, and that the entire Liturgy revolved around the Bible. It was so much more reverential than our Protestant services. I don't think I would have felt an attraction to a Mass that I couldn't understand or a Liturgy that I could not have understood as Biblical because it wasn't in a languageI understood. Is TLM better? I don't know. I do know that I want to belong to one holy, catholic and apostolic church, not the fragmentation I saw in the Protestant community.

@PopeLeoXIIIFanAccount

Жыл бұрын

I understand where you are coming from, The Latin Mass has all the readings in Latin. You should check it out!

@PopeLeoXIIIFanAccount

Жыл бұрын

I’m a convert to the faith and love the Latin Mass

@falcon6173

Жыл бұрын

The Latin Mass is so steeped in scripture, that every move, word and action of the priest is based and rooted in it. For this reason, most Jewish converts see the continuation of their faith in Christianity through the richness and the obviousness of the true sacrifice of the Mass via the vast amount of Old Testament scripture and actions. It puts Novus Ordo to shame, as it was supposed to have “more scripture “, but in reality, all of its historicity symbolism were stripped out in the name of redundancy and temporality. It’s complete hypocrisy. You see, organically, the Mass never changed for 1937 years. In 1970, the organic form completely changed. The TLM is far more beautiful, respectful, venerable and disciplined than Novus Ordo could ever be, just by design…form/prayers/structure. When you go to Mass, you listen not only with your ears, but your heart and your eyes. The notion that the TLM was too repetitive/unnecessary was/is simply diabolical.

@dcramer1

Жыл бұрын

@@falcon6173 I have no doubt that the TLM is steeped in scripture, bit it's like the case of "if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear, does it make a sound?" They could read the entire Bible in Latin, but if I couldn't understand it, it would do me no good. My parish uses some Latin and Greek prayers during Advent and Lent, the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, and I enjoy it only because by now I know what they mean. But that wouldn't have helped me years ago.

@dcramer1

Жыл бұрын

@@falcon6173 and you're wrong about the age of the TLM, it only dates back to 1570. Also the early Christian services were in Aramaic and Hebrew (the languages of the Jews in Jerusalem) and Greek. Saint Jerome didn't write the Latin Vulgate, the first Bible in Latin until 400 AD. And at that time Latin WAS the vernacular. So instead of Mass being in a language the people didn't speak, it was in a language they did speak every day of their lives, Latin. Latin isn't a holy language, Hebrew (the language the Old Testament was written in), Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), and Greek (the language the New Testament was written in) would be holier than Latin, the language of the emperors who persecuted early Christians.

The jury is back: Guilty

Well said Bishop Barron, and thank you.😊

We have no idea how many MORE people would’ve left the church, especially in progressive/Western areas, if it wasn’t for Vatican II. It’s very important to have perspective on causes and effects.

@vivianpowell1732

Жыл бұрын

History never reveals its alternative.

In the U.S. Vatican 2 changes were not explained well at the parish level.

Japan China were bountiful mission fields, pre Vatican II !!! much like Africa today. Disingenuous for you to say +Barron Novus Ordo is the reason Africa is such a rich mission field, TLM was effectively banned until +Benedict XVI, left that bit out?

I’d love to see Bishop Barron engage with Timothy Flanders on Vatican 2. Flanders is very nuanced in his praise and critique. It would be engaging with the best of the trad side. And the good bishop likes to engage with the best.

@campion7038

Жыл бұрын

Flanders is the best. City of God vs. City of Man is a masterpiece. He is a keen intellect who is not swept away by his opinions.

I would recommend people read Michael Davies "Liturgical Time bombs in Vatican II" as a primer to understanding the malice by some involved with the Council. Davies other books and pamphlets are masterful. A more in depth 12 volume series would be Atila Sinke Guimareas "Eli,Eli, Lamma Sabachtani" which begins with the book "In The Murky Waters of Vatican II" And an essential theological study would be Romano Amerio's. Iota Unum. A study of changes in the Catholic a church in the 20th century.

I became a Catholic about 10 years ago. My hope, was to be attending a Latin Mass. It us the most beautiful celebration of Christ, in my opinion. Yet, it is so far removed, that it is sad. My opinion, is that lack of appeal in the Norvus Ordo, is the reason that many people have left the Church. I hope one day, the Church will return back to the Latin Mass. I'm not saying the Norvus Ordo is bad, to be clear. Although, this new music, that is sung in mass, much of it written by protestants, is absolutely atrocious.

"We have to be in engagement with the culture that's actually there." What if there's an ever-growing cry from within that culture for the beautiful Latin Mass? Do we engage with that, or suppress it and brush it off as some cooky, ultra-conservative fringe?

I think the analogy to Nicaea is so on point.

Thanks to Bishop Barron for reading my books!

IMO, isn’t worth anything, they went too far with changes. Reverence and respect went out the window by trying to be more inclusive

This was great, thank you. I particularly enjoyed the comments on the Universal Church and the role of the Church outside of Europe in evangelization. As a tiny example, I am very grateful for the influence of a quiet academic from Tanzania who briefly worked as a priest in a north Dublin parish. A short conversation when preparing for my father's funeral some years ago led me to the St Augustine's Confessions. This among other things has been important in my slow and faltering return to faith.

@sweetmama2277

Жыл бұрын

I am in America and the priests from African countries I have encountered have been powerful men of God and huge evangelizers in the parishes. They're stronger speakers with better written homilies and energetic and encouraging and often able to speak without notes quoting memorized Scripture with chapter and verse.

@habibturay9930

Жыл бұрын

Come spread the Faith in Africa. Particularly in West Africa where Islam is the main religion.

A lot of people are talking about the later implementations of V2. The best documentary i have seen on this so far are the videos from Mass of the Ages. It goes over very well the changes that occurred.

@ntmn8444

Жыл бұрын

They make a lot of dubious claims. I don’t buy it.

@donaldc3884

Жыл бұрын

@@ntmn8444 care to be more specific?

Vatican II: "Lets change the Mass so that more people come!" How did that work out?

I converted to Catholicism the year before marrying in 1967. Our church was still having Latin masses and I would quietly say the Mass along with priest. It was rather strange switching over to English

Even if a particular medicine is very efficacious against a disease, if the patient does not take it, no healing will happen

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal took place in the US shortly after the end of the Council. Consider that.

I for one appreciate going to Mass and actually understanding what is going on in English.

A massive failure that keeps on giving...

why is the pope only ever attacking tlm instead of just properly implementing the NO? you say poor implementation but nothing is done from up top... interesting 🇲🇽

It seems like a failure

“My mom says she likes the new Mass” -Bishop Barron Everyone has to understand that the problem is that the church itself isn’t enforcing Vatican II. For instance, in the documents regarding music Gregorian chant must be sung and organ is the only favoured instrument. Hymns are only suppose to be sung if Chant can’t be sung (whatever that means). The problem are the bishops of the church not enforcing the documents as written but enforcing as they want. The laity are just trying to follow along. Also, while we are giving personal anecdotes your Grace, every African priest I’ve encountered would rather celebrate the TLM. The only reason they can’t is because of their bishop.

Just keep it very simple. After the change vs before change. It’s obvious NO was designed to have its intended effect.

What an amazing discussion! Thank you Bishop Barron! I appreciate you reframing the question and putting it on the dissenters. The cure for this resistance and dissent to VII and the Magesterium is Obedience and we need a whole lot more of it.

@michaelhodges2391

Жыл бұрын

@Tercio Novohispano I dont call anyone dissenters for preferring one form of the Mass over another. I also never claimed Vatican II didn't have flaws in terms of ambiguous language or imprudent statements. My problem (The Church's problem) is when people claim a validly promulgated Eccumenical Council is erroneous and should be done away with. That is horrendous ecclesiology and should always be condemned. I also have problems with people saying since most of the new teachings are not defenitive , we don't need to adhere to them. That completely bypasses the authentic Magesterium, which is still authoritative even when not defining something. This may be brash but sometimes a parent needs to spank their kids because they aren't obeying them. Discipline is not a bad thing, it is a tool of charity and clarity to Discipline. To not do so would be to confirm the spiritual children of the Church to sin.

Bishop Barron has stated that V2 itself wasn't a failure, but rather the way in which it was implemented was a failure. Curious to see if his opinion has changed.

@folofus4815

Жыл бұрын

At that point, what difference does it make?

@MZONE991

Жыл бұрын

@@folofus4815 It makes a lot of difference Because if the Universal Magisterium teaches Heresy then Catholicism is falsified

@folofus4815

Жыл бұрын

@@MZONE991 Saying the council failed to achieve its goals isn’t saying that the council promulgated heresy

@Tttb95

Жыл бұрын

@@folofus4815 A huge difference. One requires us to just revisit what the council actually said. The other requires a brand new council, and throws a spanner in the works for all ecumenical councils. Look at the voting record during V2. Are we really sure 90%+ of the bishops were wrong?

@folofus4815

Жыл бұрын

@@Tttb95 I’m not saying there was any doctrinal error propagated by the council, I’m saying that insofar as what the goals of what the council set out to do, it failed. That doesn’t mean the documents are heresy, but it does mean it was a fruitless endeavor

The Church is thankfully patient and incredibly wise, like Her Spouse.

@RickW-HGWT

Жыл бұрын

Look at the moral imbecile in charge and the heritics, perverts and traitors he surrounds himself with, we are in trouble !.

What is needed is a real discernment of how we as the ecclesia have failed to accept the teaching of Vatican II. We as the ecclesia have revolted against the Church. We as ecclesia are never satisfied. We fall back to the default “Back in the good old days….” The Church should look to the future and preparing us to meet our Saviour yet understanding our past.