I’m 79. In my childhood, I served as an altar boy. And, no, the mass was not rushed. I remember the phase of vesting where the priest recited a prayer before putting on each piece of liturgical vestment in the sacristy. I stood by him in silence; something important was about to take place. I had learnt and had taken the time to understand each response on my part. Some connection to the transcendant was in action. Today, most priests (other than the older ones) « say mass » as in « I have a mass to say ». The sacredness of the eucharist is absent. I frequently hear priests « say » the consecration prayer at speeds defying some publicities where a list of 12 stores is pronounced in seconds. Cheap grace. Levy Shalom

@bruno-bnvm

7 ай бұрын

​@@tomthx5804 All the more to give him credit. If it was rushed he would know being an Alter Boy. You and the clown interviewed are miking things up. Why? What devil are you consorting with?

@pstrzel

7 ай бұрын

@@bruno-bnvm This is what turns me off about trads as much as team gear worn during the NO: attacking someone simply for having a differing perspective. Where's the Christian virtue? Or is it all about virtue signaling?

@wendyfield7708

7 ай бұрын

You experienced a good priest, but how much did you really understand of the Gospel message, and not just the rituals.

@williamvaliant337

7 ай бұрын

Couldn't agree more! And it has nothing to do with being in a pew or not. Nor about being 'trad' or not...it is just how things have factually changed.

@tomredd9025

7 ай бұрын

I heartily disagree. I am 73 years old, and the Latin Mass was much like Dr. DeClue described but from my experience much worse. The first time I served Mass in 1960, I was scandalized by how the Mass was rushed, mumbled and mindlessly said. Even as a ten-year-old, I knew something was terribly wrong and was crying out to Heaven to be corrected. This is true. Every time I go to Mass, I silently thank God for the beautiful Novus Ordo Mass.

You don't know how good it was until it's gone

@user-lu7dg5ny1r

2 ай бұрын

I experienced both. I grew up in Both. Novo can be pedantic at times but Tridentine to me was over the top and annoyingly rigid. The thing is how did It become the Traditional Mass when it was an innovation at the time?. There were liturgies of the different saints and rites of other ethnic snd faith groups . How did the Tridentine become the be all and end all? . The gold standard when the church has been worshipping in splendor for centuries?

The phenomena of “rushed Latin masses without music” before the council was largely a an Irish and Irish American parish phenomena, due to the fact that the English suppressed Catholic mass for so many years and the priests were accustomed to saying them hidden, quickly, without music, etc. it wasn’t really the case in other places.

@wendyfield7708

7 ай бұрын

Also in England and Italy in my experience. Only in Italy there were more half hour hell fire and brimstone sermons then, and they could be very dramatic! +

@tomredd9025

7 ай бұрын

No. I lived in a mixed suburban area and the Mass was rushed and mumbled. I think it was a universal phenomenon.

@oregoncoug

7 ай бұрын

A terribly false memory of the fifties and early sixties masses in my experience. They were reverent, just not pedantic as the naysayers often appear to be in 2023. Although my beautiful parish wasn't Irish, so perhaps the Irish were wanting. Be that as it may, this is a downright spiteful slander on the Catholics of that still recent time. What a shame.

@folofus4815

7 ай бұрын

@@oregoncoug I am in agreement with you.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

As an Irish American who grew up exclusively in a Novus Ordo parish in still a very Irish American community, and watched scandalous liturgical abuses in the New Mass, and many friends and cousins abandon the faith over the years, I can tell you I'd take my Latin mass community any day of the week over what I was raised in. Boomers can complain about "the smells and bells" all they want to I've seen the spiritual carnage of the post V2 parish life with my own eyes.

Yep im with matt on this one, of course there were priests who rushed the mass and didn’t take it as seriously as they should've, but in that case there needed to be stricter command from bishops telling priests to take it seriously and more detailed teachings in seminaries, none of this required a brand new liturgy to be made (which ive seen some argue before). Also i was a bit confused in the discussion about the low mass about it being silent with no organ or gregorian chant, i dont think ive seen anyone claim that a low mass is like a pontifical mass, i often prefer going to the low mass over the high mass especially at winter because to me at least its quieter and more intimate with just a couple candles

@tom8979

7 ай бұрын

As someone who has a "low Mass" NO available to me (no singing , less candles , simple and more silence, etc) , I certainly agree that silence and intimacy is big at low Masses :)

@iggyantioch

7 ай бұрын

Would it be "ok" to consider the new liturgy a kin to the translations of the Catholic Bible from the Latin to the venacular. Both changed long held tennents.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

@@iggyantioch No, the new mass is not a direct translation of the 1962 missal into the vernacular. There are many changes. If it had been just a direct translation, it probably would have been more widely accepted. In any event, the Council did not even call for the whole mass to be translated into the vernacular and expected that Latin in the Roman Rite would be preserved.

@bucklr11

5 ай бұрын

@@Desert-Father which sadly now it is not even being recognised by Bergolio 😱

One of the biggest misconceptions about Vatican II is that the council is wholly responsible for the reform of the Tridentine Mass. In reality the liturgical reforms trace their roots all the way back into the Liturgical Movement of the early 1900s, which was influenced by the earlier work of Pius X “Tra le Sollecitudini”.

@avoosl

7 ай бұрын

Tra le Sollecitudini had to do only with excluding any movements in music which distracted from the meaning of the Mass. That's all, along with continuing praise for the way the music supported (not distracted from) the TLM. And, no, the V2 Council is not wholly responsible for the replacement of the Mass - that was the work of very few.

I attended Catholic school and loved the Mass! We attended Mass before classes and it was just so comforting and spiritual. Of course, I didn't understand the Latin words yet, but I could feel the Holy Spirit in the words, and learned the meaning of the words as time went on. The old Latin Mass was beautiful. Now, I can't find ONE Catholic Church that gives a Latin Mass. It's so disappointing!

@eduzz4655

6 ай бұрын

In Spain you can find almost one church that is allowed to use the vetus ordo in each province :).

@paulettesgoo

6 ай бұрын

I have an old Father LaSance Missal with the latin english pages, and I follow that during Mass, where ever I am.

The pre-concilar mass had a lot of problems according to DeClue's grandmother is not a very persuasive argument to replace it.

In my opinion the only thing that should have changed is that the TLM should have been translated to the vernacular. This has been the common practice of Eastern Catholic liturgies for centuries. There was no need for an entirely new liturgy.

@contemplatingchrist

7 ай бұрын

I agree. The catholic ordinariate also translates into English, so they have both Latin and English, same mass

@robbieray9164

7 ай бұрын

Bingo

@FrJohnBrownSJ

7 ай бұрын

I like that the NO has way more Scripture.

@followerofchristofthetrini1692

7 ай бұрын

@@FrJohnBrownSJYes Father, but only in one way. There is more scripture in an explicit way, meaning what is read. But in the 62 missal there more scriptural references through actions. The Ordinariate Divine Worship is the one form that marries both wonderfully. The Ordinariate Missal is the Mass of mutual enrichment that Benedict XVI promoted and legislated for. This is a form which should replace the Missal of Paul VI.

@bentleyb2806

7 ай бұрын

We are One Holy Catholic apostolic Church we are a universal church and the mother tongue of our church Latin it should be required for each Catholic to learn it. So to that the church has never taught it should be in the vernacular.

Lets assume what this guy says is true about the problems back then... The same problems persisted and are WORSE today in many places.

I’m from Ukrainian Catholic Church. Out liturgy was translated in Ukrainian from Church Slavonic, in the US into English. The liturgy itself stayed the same. I sheets wondered why they didn’t do the same for the Roman rite

@DominicMazoch

7 ай бұрын

I go to OL Divine Protection Houston. I get it, as a LR refugee.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

Me too.

@izabeera166

7 ай бұрын

@@EdFranklin-qv1bfBecause Catholic Church is UNIVERSAL and has its own language.

Hey, I was there, our priests always said a very holy Mass. They said it fast because when you say the same words over and over, you say them really fast, thats all. Now, we had some holy terrors as priests, mean priests that would make ladies with children cry, etc., but they always did the mass wonderful. And the choir was spectacular, especially the sopranos and organ. I remember when we had the first english Mass, the stupid table, and the first saturday night Masses. It was awful!!!!

@paulettesgoo

7 ай бұрын

And the stupid hand shake. That was the last straw. We quit going.

@tomredd9025

7 ай бұрын

That's not a "stupid" handshake. It is the most ancient Holy Kiss of Peace. Read Justine Martyr's account of the Mass in 140 AD. It is basically the Novus Odo Mass, and it has the Kiss of Peace. It a beautiful thing that most unfortunately fell out of use, like the Latin Rite congregation (contrary to the rest of the Church) receiving only the Body of Christ and not the Blood of Christ too. Thank goodness, the beautiful Novus Ordo brought both important and sacred parts of the Mass back. BTW, may I suggest that you read the account of the martyrdom of St. Perpetua and Felicity. As they were being led out to be killed in the arena, they gave each other the Holy Kiss. Though in the sight of the World, one was the master and the other the slave, they were sisters in Christ. When, you attend Mass and they ask you to do the sign of Peace, try at least kissing your family, like the first Christians did. God Bless!@@paulettesgoo

@paulettesgoo

7 ай бұрын

what nonsense @@tomredd9025

@sttlok

7 ай бұрын

@@tomredd9025The Eucharist is both the body and blood of Christ.

@Chris-yr8wb

7 ай бұрын

@@tomredd9025 Saying that Justin Martyr's description of the Mass is the Novus Ordo is extremely inaccurate. If you actually read St. Justin's text it does not have much detail about how exactly the Mass was celebrated. We know from other Church Fathers that the Mass was done ad orientem and in Greek/Latin. If you want to have a Mass like the Early Church you should have Mass ad orientem and in Greek/Latin. Furthermore the Roman Canon has been used since the time of Gregory the Great in the Roman Rite, therefore adding other Eucharistic prayers to the Mass is simply unnecessary.

If rushing the Mass was bad before, then how much worse is the Novus Ordo which cuts out large portions of prayers (invocation of St. Michael, Ss. Peter and Paul, and omits some prayers entirely? Or the institution of Eucharistic Ministers because communion "took too long"?

@seppe1701

7 ай бұрын

Couldn't agree more. Or you've got some that drag it out with pointless dribble during homilies and announcements, and modern hymns. I like to see a priest in a state of some kind of hypnosis, or deep meditation or contemplation and using tone of voice towards God. The priest also needs to be using his hands correctly and not rush around in a casual fashion. More genuflecting too.

I took my father (who altar served before Vatican II) to a TLM. He was so confused seeing the servers choreographed movements throughout the Mass. Because in all his years he had only ever served low Masses.

It looks as if neither of you can recall the traditional Mass as it was in practice before the later changes. In my parish, in a county town in the UK, the main Sunday Mass was sung by a priest and a lay choir to an organ accompaniment. The Gloria and Credo were sung together by choir and congregation in the Missa de Angelis (?) setting. I think settings of the other parts of the Mass varied. The standard of music was high. Before that Mass, there was one for Italians with congregational singing in Italian and several earlier low masses. In those days there were four Jesuit priests who served that church. I used to serve at an early low mass at a local convent where one of those priests would visit, as was the case regularly on weekdays also. I had heard of something called a 'hunting mass' in earlier centuries which was guaranteed to be over in about 20 minutes, but I never encountered anything like that. There was always an instruction on Sundays at the convent mass, and at the sung mass in the parish church. (There may have been at the other Sunday masses there, but I don't know.) The 'instruction' was just that. The Archdiocese stipulated a topic for each Sunday and that was followed except on the few occasions when a pastoral letter from the Archbishop was to be read out. Low masses were prayerfully silent in my experience. The collect, epistle and gospel could be followed by means of translations in a missal. It wasn't necessary to follow exactly each of the prayers that the priest said silently. I think it was probably useful to concentrate on just one or two, using them as starting points for one's own prayers. Hymns were confined to Rosary and Benediction on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday evenings in the parish church. There was always an organ accompaniment. Of course, no guitars or other band instruments were even thought of as possible accompaniment in those days. There was quite enough volume without the need for any microphones, except possibly in the pulpit - I'm not sure about that. Since the changes I don't think I have ever attended a traditional mass, but I have been fortunate until very recently to be able to go into London where I could find a novus ordo mass celebrated with dignity and beauty - and with a professional choir and organist. My movements have become more restricted and I am now experiencing, almost for the first time, the fare provided by a local parish church. What I miss above all is a mass without distractions. Trying to sing vernacular English to plainchant just doesn't work. This is especially true of prayers sung by the priest. (The words are easier to follow if simply read aloud.) I can occasionally enjoy robust hymns that I sang when at school and as a choirboy in an Anglican church, but more modern tunes sound 'wet' - to use an old schoolboy expression. I agree completely with those critics who reject the 'hymn sandwich' by which every parish seems to drag out a novus ordo mass. On the whole, I think I have been quite fortunate up to now. I wonder if it's legiitimate to offer up presence at some celebrations of mass as mortification?

@lumpichu

5 ай бұрын

When reading some books by the saints, until learning about TLM, I've always wondered how it's possible they actually prayed or spoke with Jesus during the mass. I talked about distractions and focusing during our (NO) masses with our priest in a confession and he told me basically that's just how humans are, they aren't made to be able to follow all the constant action and words during the current liturgy with focus and prayerfully.

Say what you wish, the old Mass, rushed or not, was for grown-ups--and men especially didn't feel so embarrassed by subtly (or not so subtly) forced emotion. Nor were homilies the rhetorical equivalent of felt-board messages for kindergartners. My grandmother (born 1900) told me that, yes, her mind wasn't always on the altar during Mass...because she was saying her Rosary. Her mind might not have been up there but her heart was. Rushed? Maybe sometimes. But she believed those old masses were always reverent. Always. Dr. DeClue says there wasn't always music: SOUNDS GREAT TO ME! Sure, I'd prefer chant to no music at all, but must there always be music? My grandmother also said the old masses were at least PEACEFUL. Really. Is it too much to ask for busy, distracted laymen that ONE HOUR out of the week be dedicated to transcendence with quiet, even pensive silence? Yes, the Novus Ordo is valid, but it's also inferior. I'm afraid this good man is making an empty point.

@DoctorDewgong

7 ай бұрын

Bingo. New Masses often feel like they're aimed solely at children

@bobaphat3676

7 ай бұрын

More Scripture (OT and NT) in the NO A language people CAN actually understand The Sacrifice of the Mass is more inclusive and still reverent if celebrated piously It has led to Mass evangelisation across the world especially amongst developing countries It is the MASS of the Catholic Church going forward, the extraordinary form is NOT going to ever be the norm again. I am a realist, the TLM has its place but the NO is the MASS of the Church going forward in the Spirit of VII.

@ltngrk

7 ай бұрын

As soon as I see the word 'inclusive', I know snake oil is being sold. Really, I agree about REVERENT Novus Ordo Masses--and in the last 40 years, I've seen about 7 of them. No more. Why is that? Why? And WHY have most of the Catholics in my family fallen away since Vatican II? An accident? A coincidence? Possibly. But you really can't read. The point is that people DON'T need to 'understand' the words of the Mass...though the words are in the Missal if one wishes to see them. 'Mass evangelization'? We need to compare notes. And you say that the TLM 'has its place'. So you disagree with the pope? By the way, 'going forward': please be careful with metaphors. Historically speaking, this doesn't work here. 'Going forward', I see a cliff.

Let's just keep in mind that many of the priests who were doing clown masses during the 70s were ordained before V2 and used to celebrate in the old form. When the old mass was the norm, it was treated as nothing out of the ordinary. You would find the best and the worst. It happened quite often for parishes to celebrate high mass only during Christmas and Easter. Many people went to mass by tradition or social pressure, some guys became priests just because it was a sign of social elevation. By comparison, traditional masses today are very high quality, although some accidents still happen like low masses being rushed or mumbled. Overall, throughout the ages, the Church has always suffered. Nowadays, problems are just different from what they used to be. Let's not despair over nostalgia for a time most of us didn't experience.

@Consume_Crash

7 ай бұрын

I hear you, but a solution to a lot of the problems in the Church and among the laity could be greatly helped by more (licit) Latin Masses. Belief in the real presence, for example, and exposure to things that help the mind contemplate God amidst a chaotic world.

@jhssuthrnmama

5 ай бұрын

I suspect a lot of same-sex-attracted men went to the priesthood because it was a way to avoid marriage when they *really* didn't want to get married, and they hoped they could stay chaste. Then they stayed as so many left the priesthood post-VII, because it was like a fraternity for people who loved social work and fabulous robes. The reverent Latin Mass *needs* to return, but we also need to correct the errors that led to so many millions of TLM-formed Catholics abandoning not only reverence, but the faith and even sanity post-VII.

In Latin America happened all he is saying. Just imagine indigenous or low education people completely just not understanding the Mass at all. My grandmother used to tell me she just prayed the Rosary then because she just don't understand mass, and yes, it was (and sadly is) rushed.

@liviasantos8698

7 ай бұрын

Same here in Brazil. My mother told me she had no idea what the Priest was saying or doing. She never returned to the Church 😢

@femaleKCRoyalsFan

7 ай бұрын

@@liviasantos8698 She didn’t have the ability of having a missal with the translation in her language next to the Latin?

@liviasantos8698

7 ай бұрын

@@femaleKCRoyalsFan oh no, she lived in a extremely poor village here in Brazil. Many times my grandmother went to bed sleep without anything to eat, she just let everything for her kids. 😢

In the 1950’s through the mid-sixties our Cathedral on Sunday mornings celebrated 2 low Masses in the Crypt Church and in the Great Church, 3 of the 5 were High Masses. 60 voice girls choir at the first, 80 voice vested men and boys choir at the second and a high school college women’s choir at the 3rd. Every Sunday throughout the year. St. Mary’s Cathedral, St. Cloud, MN. Liturgies there were never, ever rushed.

If everyone who frequents the novus ordo was as revenant about the liturgy as those who frequent the TLM, then all novus ordo masses would be just as beautiful and rightly ordered.

@ltngrk

7 ай бұрын

Not a bad point.

@DoctorDewgong

7 ай бұрын

Not necessarily true. Many NO priests are absolutely set on having the Mass be a balloons and banners experience, and won't let anyone change their mind

@TamCloncey

7 ай бұрын

@@DoctorDewgong My point is that if people who go the novus ordo were as passionate about the Mass, priests like you described wouldn't get away with making it into a festival. People would be insisting he change and if he doesn't they'd get the bishop involved.

@femaleKCRoyalsFan

7 ай бұрын

I would say if women understood WHY veiling was required pre-Vatican II, they would veil at the new mass as well

@TamCloncey

7 ай бұрын

@@femaleKCRoyalsFan What you're saying is a logical fallicy. Women wore veils pre-the 1983 Code because it was required in the 1917 Code and thereby they were respecting the authority of the Church. After the 1983 Code removed the veiling requirements, veiling became a part of an outfit rather than a necessity. We can use conditional statements to check the logic: if the Cannon requires veiling, then women should veil. That checks out and the logic is clear backwards: if women should veil, then the Cannon requires veiling. But you're saying: if the Cannon doesn't require veiling, then women should veil. That doesn't make logical sense because if you flip the conditional statement it becomes absurd: if women should veil, then the Cannon doesn't require veiling. To say that all women should still veil is to question the Code of Cannon Law which is prideful and schismatic, for you are no longer humbling yourself to the authority of the Church. I wear a suit to every Mass, but I don't think of myself as any more revenant or that it every man should have to wear a suit.

Many of the tlm masses I have gone to have been very rushed, excluding the main Sunday mass. And I’ve seen a return to the rosary praying. It’s not a panacea. Give me a reverent NO with a little Latin thrown in in a beautiful church. ❤

@lumpichu

5 ай бұрын

And ad orientem. It makes a big difference. They serve it that way in the chapel we go to on one per week, because there is only one altar.

I remember the Latin Mass well, being 75 YO. I served Mass hundreds of times. Those were better times to be a Catholic for sure.

Then wouldnt the solution be to teach the people to be devoted to the mass instead of inventing a new mass that people would be equally undevoted to?

@BalthasarCarduelis

7 ай бұрын

It was a generational thing. It wasn't just the Mass that they figured they knew better than everyone before them. It was music, art, sexuality, anthropology, science, law, like everything pretty much. They forgot that they stood on the shoulders of giants, and were drunk on the spirits of change. Many made such a big deal at the time of their innovations that it's hard for them to admit that Elvis ain't no Handel, that Miro ain't no Caravage. But as a positive, the aging of their fashions has taught us the importance of the education and discipline that they never got.

@bethmcmullan7686

7 ай бұрын

If you listen to the full video, and read Sacrosanctum Concilium, that was kind of the idea. The implementation has not matched the reality.

The worst example of the TLM is still better than the best NO mass. Because the mass isn’t about our feelings. It’s about the holy sacrifice.

My mother-in-law and father-in-law say it was terrible. They didn’t understand a thing. I went to Latin Mass a few years ago; had my four sons trained because our Bishop recommended it. We stopped doing that after the altar boys in the sacristy were insulting the Pope and “No-Mass Ordo” all the time. It got old. Unfortunate because we all love the reverence and quiet in the actual Latin Mass. It has caused a lot of division in our church and families.

@DanielBaker-ph2nb

7 ай бұрын

Hello Faith, how are you and the weather condition like today ?

@izabeera166

7 ай бұрын

Well, they should be better educated then if they didn’t understand anything. It’s a duty of every Catholic to learn about the faith. Also relying on childhood memories is not the best. Mass is boring and complicated for most kids and young.

lol “My mom and her mother” You can’t judge a majority of Latin masses off of your mom and her mom’s experiences

@TheEfruge508

3 ай бұрын

My thoughts exactly

The NO is not the vernacular Apostolic Roman rite. As much as people tell stories about liturgical abuse, that doesn’t equate create completely different liturgy, new sacraments, new blessings, new liturgical “tradition” that mimics Protestants, guitar Mass, etc.

Thank you.

An old lady at my church says that as a girl, she and her sisters would hurriedly pin tissues to their heads because they weren't allowed to go into the Church without veiling. Takes away the meaning of the gesture altogether so I'm glad now women can choose to veil after having an understanding of what it means.

@DoctorDewgong

7 ай бұрын

I mean, St. Paul uses pretty strong language when writing about this

@izabeera166

7 ай бұрын

You ppl are crazy. Only caring about yourself and your own comfort and enjoyments. Can you follow any rules or everything is oppressive?😂

@jenniferrolles1549

5 ай бұрын

My mom said she and her sisters would do the same thing!

It feels to me, and the way I understand this brief video, V2 "dumbed down" the Mass.

This issue with the TLM was that most regular Catholics believed it to be elitist. Priest having thier back turned, speaking latin, etc. Your more devout Catholic would understand thats not the case and thats why the TLM communities in the modern day are so strong. However, bring back the TLM as the main mass and youll see the disconnect clear as day.

@iggyantioch

7 ай бұрын

Yes. Unfortunately the tlm parish in my diocese ,yes the whole parish considers themselves as "better". Sadly. I have been lectured and had to debate them concerning the no. Lack of reverence. Painful. Divisive. Exclusive.

@HeHasRisen.

7 ай бұрын

@@iggyantioch Thats one of the reasons the Pope issued Traditionis Custode.

@tomredd9025

7 ай бұрын

Unfortunately, I have never talked to anyone who pushes the TLM who does not consider it "THE Real Mass."

@HeHasRisen.

7 ай бұрын

@@tomredd9025 yep, which is why Pope Francis had to limit it because it was being used in a schismatic fashion in some areas, not all.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

Yes, I'm getting a real education from "regular Catholics", who judge the Latin mass community based on false assumptions and shutdown our parishes, about Christian devotion and charity. Perhaps, we should devote some time to figuring our why 70% of Catholics in the US deny the real presence and less on what expression of the Roman Rite 1% of the Church wants to attend.

The changing/downgrading of the mass is the main reason the Church and then the world fell. We went from the clean streem of Grace to murky dripping. And it allso destroid the faith. Lex orandi, lex credendi. I should know, i went to N.O. for a ling time and now 2 years TLM strait. Like drinking from mountain creek insted of a muddy puddle.

He says that the TLM was rushed in the past. It doesn’t matter, was he there in the 1950’s to tell us that ??? - it’s what we want now and btw most TLM Priests do the Mass properly. I don’t agree with him WHATSOEVER! Our Priests from the Fraternity of St Peter and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest in my area say the TLM properly and it’s never rushed - EVER !!

Good point!

The more obvious question is "what did the congregations look like before Vatican 2"? Are sizes of the congregations getting smaller? Weren't the changes supposed to open things up to more people and put more butts in the pews? As for 'rushed' masses? Not that I agree with the premise at all, (I do not in general) but I believe we get even more rushed masses NOW more so than ever. Places to go, games to see, etc etc

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

Exactly. We went from some people going through the motions to most abandoning the Church. We went from people who attend Church infrequently getting their children baptized to people in homosexual relationships getting their children baptized. Is this the renewal that Pope John XXIII envisioned?

@meliza153

7 ай бұрын

Come to Asia. The pews are full. I imagine this is the case in Africa too.

I really loved what I've seen so far of this interview with Dr Richard, thankyou.❤ I tend to agree with Matt & Richard that Holy Mass said and attended with the right heart is beautiful. My mum would have grown up with the Tridentine & she was a very Catholic and Holy person imo - she did say also that while she understood the rubrics, she could 'wander' at times due to not entirely understanding Latin. I know that she would have ( she's passed now ) said she felt some relief when Mass was said in the vernacular in her latter years. I think this is true of many in that generation. I see a beauty in the reclaiming of not only the Tridentine Mass, but also it's older ( it's true ) form said in the vernacular. I would love to see one have influence on the other in positive ways ( the music for example ) & I think we will get there. I've never once seen a 'Clown Mass' - plenty of clowns..lol but no specifically 'Clown' Mass...but then I'm sure where there are sinners in any rite or attending any liturgy you will have 'issues'. The only thing I get discouraged about is when any single Catholic thinks it's ok to bash any single Holy Mass either side........and of course that there even is a 'side' - we're all part of One Body afterall. I think we'll get there but only through not drawing lines & being separate and closed off communities.

At least in Spanish there are some interesting books from that time: they denounce the bad way of celebrating by many priests (I think one title is "How not to celebrate the Holy Mass"). You can also read the minutes of the pastoral visits, where the bishops reproached the parish priests for how neglected the liturgical vestments were, etc. I wish that would be done now too. But it's true that not everyone celebrated carefully in the old days.

I don't agree it was rushed. I was in primary parochial school our masses were solemn and with a choir. This was in late 50s and early 60s. Mass was in latin we had the missal and it was serious. Communion was on the tongue kneeling. Then came V2 and change came, the latin mass disappeared. Was replaced by holding hands while praying the Lord's Prayer. No more TLM in the diocese all NO with strange things such as joke time, women ministers, lay ministers giving communion in the hand, dancing, guitars and electronic organs, strange.

Let me tell you. Us who were raised with the Latin mass , a lot of us didn’t want to be there because we barely understood what was going on, and people barely took time to make youngsters comfortable with the Latin .we were unable to understand what was going on never was given a Latin lesson to help. I had a class for adults some pre Vatican and some post. The pre Vatican 2 crowd were very happy with novo ordos. They could understand what was going on and things were actually explained to us. And the hierarchy could be discussed instead of just taking orders. The post Vatican crowd, wants the strictures. They have had a formless life and form has a Beauty and calmness they have never really experienced. They obey without question., because they don’t have to think when confronted .. you just do.. there is great freedom in that. I’ll go to a mass pre or post. Is it right to denigrate a form of mass when before Trent their were many different rites , all ,I’m sure with a beauty all their own. But we won’t know because both camps have set themselves on a collision course that helps no one.

@pedrovaghetti7087

7 ай бұрын

That happened because modernist mentality was already in course before Vatican II and the liturgy reform.

@pedrovaghetti7087

7 ай бұрын

That happened because modernist mentality was already in course before Vatican II and the liturgy reform.

@pedrovaghetti7087

7 ай бұрын

That happened because modernist mentality was already in course before Vatican II and the liturgy reform.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

Having grown up in the post V2 church and with exclusively the Novus Ordo liturgy, I can tell you that it has been a disaster. All of my siblings and cousins have left the faith.

@user-lu7dg5ny1r

7 ай бұрын

@@pedrovaghetti7087 modernist mentality , ( which I believe is a overblown concept) had been around a very long time , since the Enlightenment. The world changed. Good or Bad ,it changed.Modernist is the worship of such rational concepts to the point of denying God and men”s relationship with God. We cannot have a world that is sane if we rely only on the here and now . Without the tradition of the church or even the tradition of family , without the sense of the sacred we are doomed. The loss of sense of the sacred is the invisible noose that that is strangling society . It makes you cold , distant . Unfeeling. Until we start seeing life as sacred , individuals as sacred , the elderly, the young I haven’t seen any great strides within either Group. I really don’t see that in traditional or modern views the entire sense of the sacred , is missing. It doesn’t mean church ,religious sacred it means The sacredness of the everyday, the ordinary . Every striving toward God is sacred. Of trying to be in line with Jesus’ words , is sacred. People are sacred. We look at each other and and those around us with a jaundiced eye. Every body seems to interested in their own ideology and denigrating their brothers and sister in their ardor for a the Tridentine mass.. or other things .why would you do that. ?It makes you no better than the world. Contention and the anger should not overcome your focus on Jesus , his words his way of love, his attitude. Jesus always has a word of correction for those who believed they were special , while the poor slobs who lived and worked and prayed in their simpler basic human way were looked on with kindness and reverence.

My parish was almost Jansenist when my Mom moved to that town in 1946. No one went to Communion most Sundays. She started to go and others followed. It was a rural US Midwest parish of Bohemian, Slovakian, Moravian descent. I served at many Masses there and still have my Altar Server's Guide.

This man is absurdly liturgically ignorant. There was a high Mass every Sunday at established parishes. All Masses were full of people with Latin-English missals. Altar boys were trained and served with reverence and knowledge of what they were doing. His random opinions are both useless and offensive to Catholic piety. (If he wants to know how far back lay involvement with the Mass goes, I suggest reading Eamon Duffy’s ‘The Stripping of the Altars’ on liturgical piety at the time of the English Reformation. And Requiem Masses were said to fulfill stipends for them, not because they were shorter.)

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

He's basing his arguments off of anecdotal stories from his grandmother, what do you expect?

As someone who experienced the pre Vatican 2 Latin Mass as a young kid, I can assure you, particularly in Irish American parishes, but not exclusively, the Masses were always rushed. Pastors used to boast, “ I can get them in and out in less than 20 minutes, and that’s with a Sunday sermon!” Today it’s just the opposite when many Traditional Sunday Latin Masses are like baroque operas with lots of smells, bells, clouds of incense , an endless cast of characters on the altar, which sometime last two hours or more. All these externals are no guarantee that either the priests or people are celebrating devoutly. A correct alternative, in my opinion , would be a simple High Mass with 2 or 3 altar boys, simple Gregorian chant which people could sing, which would last no more than an hour,. The exaggerations promoted mostly by younger priests, who were never actually brought up in the TLM must stop because it is not liturgically correct. It has the effect of turning the Mass into a liturgical spectacular!

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

As an Irish American who grew up exclusively in a Novus Ordo parish in still a very Irish American community, and watched scandalous liturgical abuses in the New Mass, and many friends and cousins abandon the faith over the years, I can tell you I'd take my Latin mass community any day of the week over what I was raised in. Boomers can complain about "the smells and bells" all they want to I've seen the spiritual carnage of the post V2 parish life with my own eyes.

@DominicMazoch

7 ай бұрын

Actually, Pope St. Pius x promoted Gregorian Chant so to get the aBarque performance out of the Mass!

@giovanniserafino1731

7 ай бұрын

@@DominicMazoch You are absolutely correct. Pope St. Pius X forbade Baroque and operatic Masses because they were an abuse of the sacred liturgy, and turned the Mass into a liturgical concert in which the people were unable to participate. Unfortunately, many of our younger priests today, who claimed to be traditionalists, ignore the directives of Pope Saint Pius X . There is absolutely no reason that an “ Agnus Dei” should drag on for 10 or 15 minutes while the priest and congregation wait until the concert is over.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

@@giovanniserafino1731 I go to a parish that offers the Latin mass and our mass does not go for over two hours nor has baroque operatic singing. Just another example of anti-Latin mass critics judging a community that they don't understand and made no effort to know. Having been raised in a Novus Ordo only parish, I much prefer the one I'm in now.

@giovanniserafino1731

7 ай бұрын

@@Desert-Father Yes, yours is a common response from people your age who have been hurt and abused by the Novus Ordo mentality. You are willing to ignore every liturgical abuse at the TLM as long as it is not the Novus Ordo Missae . I know priests who celebrate the TLM who ignore the proper rubrics. When questioned or challenged their response is always the same, “ I’m the Pastor, I can do what I want!” My response to that antiphon is, “ Priests are servants of the liturgy, not the master. You are a Novus Ordo priest who likes Latin and incense!”

I loved the Mass before Vat 2. It was so spiritual filled.

Timestamp: 4:00-4:38 Agreed! That is the question to ask to the majority of Catholics when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

What is this guy talking about? I attended the Mass as a boy and never felt it was rushed or that no one was not paying attention. What rubbish! There are far fewer attendees paying attention to the husk of a Mass we have been left with. The entire reverence and mystery has been swept away. Might as well attend a Lutheran service! (Postscript: Our parish had a large majority of Low Masses, and only the occasional High Mass. Just added for clarity)

I have also heard that pre-Vatican II people were doing a rosary during Mass, not engaged in the liturgy. My niece had a Latin Mass low Mass wedding a few years ago and it was the fastest Catholic wedding Mass I'd ever been to. The priest flew through the liturgy and it was done. Also, the Mass in the vernacular was a wonderful catholic change to the Church and spurned many conversions around the world. Look how Catholic and devout Africa is; without the tradition Latin Mass. Who knows if I would be such without the vernacular.

I have attended Latin masses, and when one was really well said the other one was rushed and chaotical, an I was lost in the booklet where are we every 2 min. It was really unpleasant, adding with 3 small children and atheist husband. There was no part that my husband could understand or like anything or be stunned. No anything for my children to hook on or engage (usually they do at novus ordo, listening to readings, singing, saying Lords prayer, adoring when kneeling and I explain them why). It was a chore, and when for me was meaningful chore, not for my kids, and did no impression on my husband. I also attended a very beautifully celebrated novos ordo, when you just felt the presence of Holy spirit, and see reverence of the priest during the weekly mass, so it all depends and what matters is the faith and love.

The only criticism people have of pre council liturgy is that it was rushed. Like give me a break

Our parish priest told us in grade school that the Tridentine Mass required over 40 signs of the cross at one point. It became repetitive and the priests would rip through them as fast as possible. He much preferred the new mass, as it was simpler, had more meaning and is less repetitive.

@DBz213

7 ай бұрын

There were around 50 or 52 signs of the cross I believe. St. Thomas Aquinas gives a beautiful account as to the meaning behind all the signs of the cross. They were there to remind the priest of what he was doing, to call to mine the sacrificial action, and what exactly the liturgy is. It was an incarnational sign so that the priest was praying with his whole person, not just words and mind. The repetitions were there to deepen the mystery.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

More meaning? Read the Tridentine Offertory and the New Mass Offertory side by side and tell me which one has more meaning behind it.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

@@khasichristian6410 Obviously, but the offetory is still part of the mass.

@ARobichaud

7 ай бұрын

@@khasichristian6410the offertory is the key point where the the bread and wine are set aside specifically for God. If this is not done right the consecration of the the bread wine is technically invalid.

@ARobichaud

7 ай бұрын

@@khasichristian6410 I was listening to Fr. Ripperger discuss this. Let’s say your running out of hosts at communion, you can’t just grab another bowl of i consecrated hosts and say the words. They have to be set aside in the corporal and the prayers said of offertory to literally set aside or sanctify the bread and wine to God in preparation for the words of consecration.

So many people have this overly rosy view. There was truly a lot of good. Our 2nd parish, especially, where we sang in choir in 5th through 8th grade daily at Mass, the pastor treated everyone like family, and began each Sunday with the Asperges Me-The sprinkling rite-organ and whole congregation singing. Still love and miss that. I learned all my Gregorian chant. BUT A great deal of it wasn’t all that fabulous in our former parishes. People often prayed the Rosary silently during Mass. Ww had a LOT of Requiem Masses… low and high. Lots of black. We wore a Kleenex and Bobby pin on our heads if we forgot our chapel veils. The Good Friday response “Te rogamus audi nos” became “David’s got a snotty nose”. Our First Communion was traumatic: two huge classes receiving Jesus for the first time, kneeling to the “clicker”, recitation of a series of overly sentimental prayers and songs recited in chorus. It was a type of forced piety that was damaging to our tender souls. Oh, and…our pastor was later found guilty of sex abuse. Lots of shame, forcing, and strictness in his parish and school… no surprise. Not the good old days.

We have to keep in mind that like, 99.9% of all the council fathers voted in favour of reforming the liturgy. Secondly - we have to keep in mind that the reforms they had in mind were not the 70s guitar felt banner phenom that took the world by storm thanks to the boomers. It was what was in SC. So look to a church like St John Cantius in the states. Or the Oratory of St Philip Neri in Canada that celebrates a beautiful NO. That's what the council father's had in mind. Something where we had all the best of the old rite - with teaching parts in vernacular and more audible responses by the laity.

I still love a "low Mass". Fewer distractions. Just time to meditate on the mystery that is going on. But yes, we used to talk about the 20 minute Mass.

I think hes painting with a broad brush when he says mass was rushed and people were there because they had to be.Its sounds like " the reform of the reform" take on the tlm.

I was an altar boy in the 1950s and 60s. I have seen the "Mazerati" Masses in those years. Even so, I MUCH prefer the TLM. I never saw the outright horrible ABUSES that I have seen in the Novus Ordo. Of course things were not always perfect in the TLM but I personally never saw the level of abuses nor the seriousness of the abuses that I have often seen in the Novus Ordo. I think the Church would be much better off to return to the TLM. Here is a quote that I picked up somewhere along the way that says a lot about the different forms of the Mass. I don't know who to give credit to but I have always thought it says a lot. "Of course, there's something to be said for the Latin liturgy, a liturgy whose very nature resists and defeats abuses. The Ordinary Form can be extraordinarily reverent when said by a holy priest. I've been to such liturgies hundreds of times, and I'm grateful for every one. On the other hand, the new liturgy, with all its Build-a-Bear options, is terribly easy to abuse. The old Mass reminds me of what they used to say about the Catholic Church and the U.S. Navy: "It's a machine built by geniuses so it can be operated safely by idiots." The old liturgy was crafted by saints, and can be said by schlubs without risk of sacrilege. The new rite was patched together by bureaucrats, and should only be safely celebrated by the saintly."

St. Alphonsus Liguori wrote quite a bit criticizing priests who rushed Mass and how it led to lack of devotion. He called it a mortal sin to celebrate Mass in under 15 minutes. So it was a problem long before VII.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

But according to St. Alphonsus Liguori, the solution was to say the Mass slower with more reverence not to replace it entirely.

@dansedevie123

7 ай бұрын

@@Desert-Father My point was that irreverence was present even before the Council.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

@jessi9496 I don't doubt irreverence in some form has always been present. We are human. But to what degree? I have a hard time imagining the level of irreverence that I witnessed at novus ordo masses growing up was present before the council.

@dansedevie123

7 ай бұрын

@@Desert-Father The irreverence may have looked different, but it was probably still there. Just in a different form. The same attitude and lack of catechesis that led to abuses then led to abuses today. It doesn't just come out of nowhere, and certainly was not the purpose of the council. Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, Cardinal Arinze.... have spoken out against irreverence and liturgical abuse, but they all talked positively about the council and its necessity.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

@dansedevie123 Except the irreverent and liturgical abuses still exist in many NO only parishes today and now the Catican is no longer talking about. Instead, they crack down on reverent Latin masses. Shows you where their priorities are.

I am 86. I was an Altar Boy. The daily low mass was simple. The congregation did not see what the priest was doing. The Altar Boy answered for the people. It was all in Latin. The priest would hold the Chalice and the Host high over his head so the people could adore Our Lord in the Eucharist. I miss the Traditional Mass but I also like the New Mass if done correctly with reverence, like you see on EWTN.

I would be in favor of the Latin Church reforming the Novus Ordo to that of the Anglican Ordinariate. It is a liturgy that blends the best of the Latin Rite and the New Mass.

I love the TLM, but I’ve complained that it (Low Mass) was too fast and rushed. I’m kind of a convert. I got back into the Church through the TLM. But now I have to read it first in the missal and then go to mass.

I don't remember or witness any Mass not being great or rushed through in the fifty's(1950) Since I was born in 1950 and baptized at a month old. At eight years old we children had to be at Sunday Mass early and had to sit in front of the sisters and not to look behind us. Singing in Latin. The Gloria I sang with all my heart. and still do so today. I love that the church I attend today still have the altar for Holy Communion. When I was young I memorized the Mass to speak it in Latin, I went to Catholic school on Saturday for religion and Public school during the week. So I learn the child version of being a Catholic, the main biblical stories and the commandment to receive my 1st communion and going to confession. For the age I was I felt very devoted to my faith. I did not judge the high mass to the low mass. It was Mass a commitment to God. My schooling stop after elementary school in religion but I still attended church. I do not know if they had RICA classes during that time. My mother who became Catholic due to marriage rules of the church during those days honor my father's desires after his death in seeing that all 10 of his children became Catholic. I however did not get confirmed until 1997. I was seeking and searching for understanding. I am still seeking deeper depth of my spirituality. With my experiences of life and having my own children, the Bible a living book speaks to me as I go from one level of life to another perfecting my path to salvation journey. I remain faithful to the church of our Lord. My prayers, God Bless.

My dad was an altar boy in the 50s and he said most Sunday Masses he served in were 20 minutes more or less.

@stephenlight647

7 ай бұрын

Wow. I can honestly say I went to masses as a boy in the 1950’s and none were particularly short.

The TLM (even a Low Mass) had more safeguards preventing exterior profanation of the liturgy eg. The genuflections, the gestures of the priest, communion kneeling on the tongue, etc. It would be interesting to compare the amount of Catholics who believed in the Real Presence in the 50’s, to those who believe now. I’m sure the liturgy would be a factor.

I've talked to old timers and pre-vatican ii mass was boring. People had no idea what was going on, lots of people would say a rosary during the mass to pass the time. Novus Ordo reform has been such a blessing to our church.

@flabiger

6 ай бұрын

I mean it hasn't changed even now. I go to traditional masses and many parishioners are saying their rosaries throughout the mass instead of participating in the mass.

I strongly disagree, not all but many masses in the 50s were rushed. Irish priests were notorious for saying the fastest masses. I’m 77 and was an altar boy throughout grammar school, weekdays and Sundays. The Bishop was Irish, All the priests were Irish and the Nuns were Irish. One of the priests was slow and prayerful, the other two the Maseratis of the clergy. We altar boys would compare notes later in class to see who had the best score for that day. The unbroken record was twenty minutes and we heard through the grapevine that a priest in another parish hit the fifteen minute mark. Now those were weekday masses, on Sundays they slowed down to the speed limit. It wasn’t until I entered the Seminary that I saw the beauty of the liturgy. Graceful, articulated and reverent. When I compare the two styles of the Eucharistic liturgy, I see in the Tridentine, timelessness, mystery and elegance. In the new mass, casual informality, and a come as you are Lutheran look alike.

@JohnFDonovan-by1nt

6 ай бұрын

Notice the nationality. My last name is Donovan and I am an organist and choir director. Most of my arguments with clergy over my efforts to return to our sacred traditions in the context of the NO (Which is still an inferior version of the Mass, Catholicism lite if you will) have been with the "Irish" clergy. The Irish because of their persecuted history never had the time to see Catholicism incarnate in her liturgical beauty. In addition, the Irish had a strong stain of Jansenism, which is at odds with incarnational Catholic aesthetics, and you have the makings of the cool aid that has caused certain sections of the American church to self-destruct. Add to this the Irish desire to Americanize and pass for Congregationalists so they could be accepted without embarrassment. When those swarthy superstitious Italians arrived along with the Polish, French Canadians and German immigrants the Irish treated them very poorly because being associated with these foreigners risked the arriviste social standing that the Irish had begun to achieve in American society. The Irish clergy were the fountain head of the Americanist heresy because they wanted to belong to the dominant society. Come to the NE where the Irish predominate and you will find they have created a liturgical desert, emptied the churches and called it renewal, collaboration etc etc etc. When all is said and done the genius of the TLM was that it left nothing to chance. There were boundaries no one dared to really violate. The abuses of the NO are living proof the clergy cannot be trusted to understand what Catholic worship is. In addition, even at the low Mass one was free to actively participate in accordance with one's level of understanding. The very liturgically minded could read the missal, the less liturgically minded would say the rosary or pray quietly. Furthermore, there was a choice. Many parishes had the Sunday pastor's Missa Cantata. Before the NO was brutally imposed on us by an abuse of papal power, I grew up in a culturally dead suburb of Boston. However, our parish had an excellent organist and choir. I was exposed to polyphony, chant and some of the better pieces of church music. We sometimes did attend the low Mass, but more often my parents brought us to the Missa cantata. At least we had a choice. Today most parishes do not offer any choice at all. The only non option is the crushing mediocrity of the priest talk show host accompanied by tyrannical musical Doc Seversons playing sacropop so here's Johnny can emote from the Poohbah throne, in churches that look like a hospital waiting room with an impromptu picnic table in the center.

As one who was raised on the Novus Ordo Mass, the Latin Mass was something we heard about only during religious education. I remember my Grandmother and Great-Aunt doing the rosary during Mass and thought it strange, but never asked about it. Since going to a traditional Latin Mass I learned why...there was nothing else to do. One stands sits and kneels at the appropriate times, but the congregation has only a small part in the liturgy. Might as well do a rosary while there. I have a Latin Missal that was my fathers from 1959 with an English translation and most of the time it is spent in a game called "where are we in the Mass?" With that said, I love the Novus Ordo with Latin chants, songs and prayers that everyone can say and sing. Brings some of the mystery back to the liturgy. A full choir fills the space and doesn't require a sometime reluctant congregation to do all the singing. But I also like that everyone takes part in the Mass, not just the priest, altar servers and choir. Brings us into and makes us a part of the Mass instead of being casual bystanders.

@youkokun

7 ай бұрын

Pray. The laity pray at Low and High TLM. You may follow along in your missal but you're not required to do so. Your prayer and sacrifice unites with that on the altar. The Mass is not for you, it is for God. Your feelings are not worship but rather your presence and will that God be praised through the Mass rightly done. That is your assistance at Mass.

@crushtheserpent

7 ай бұрын

"... there was nothing else to do". One can do mental prayer, meditate, contemplate, sit/stand/kneel in awe. I personally prefer not to use a Missal. No-one used a Missal before the 19th C.

@nealkriesterer

7 ай бұрын

Well now it's done so that you pray the Confiteor, Our Father, Creed etc. with the priest. Not everyone's great at silent prayer, and even if they are, I can pray silently at home. There must be some reason mass brings everyone together - if it's not to pray communally, what's the point of bringing everyone together? If it was really just for God, mass could be done with one priest in private speaking for everybody. No need to attend. Truth is it's called Holy Communion AND The Eucharist. It's Calvary AND The Last Supper. It's not just a sacrifice to God. It's not just communal prayer. It's both.

@izabeera166

7 ай бұрын

Praying Rosary during Latin mass is a normal practice. Also Mass is for God, not for your entertainment or engagement. It seems like most Catholics now are tainted with Protestant nonsense.

@TheEfruge508

3 ай бұрын

@@izabeera166very true. The novus ordo types want to make the mass all about themselves and their feelings. Kind of narcissistic

It’s a silly point. People didn’t always celebrate or attend the Mass as they should have. And…? Welcome to humanity.

I started going to the TLM since November 2019 not because I want but because I feel Catholic and the Preist give direction into Salvation. The Novus Ordo Mass(es) I have been to HAVE ZERO MASSEGE OF SALVATION.

This is a laughable critique. What he is describing is something that has existed in every century of Church history. There have always been instances of mediocrity and laxity in the performance of the liturgy, and localities where corruption took deep root, such as in southern France in the 12th century when the Cathars gained many adherents by pointing to the laxity of the local Catholic hierarchy and contrasting it with their own strict ascetism. But the answer to this problem is not to change the liturgy, but to raise up religious orders and lay movements dedicated to re-evangelization and to zealous practice of the one true faith, such as occurred, for example, with the Franciscans under St. Francis of Assisi or the early Jesuits under St. Ignatius of Loyola...

@bobaphat3676

7 ай бұрын

Lol you have no concept of history right ? Did you listen to the talk, he clearly explains that the culture was changing dramatically with technology and a whole host of other variables. You can't act like the Latin Mass is transcultural and transhistorical forever. You have to contend with problems in the world and be pragmatic about the Church's mission. This is the Church's number ONE JOB, not to lock itself away in self-made bubble with its rubrics in need of desperate review. This is why VII was needed so desperately and WAS the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, there is NO other explanation. This isolationist mentality means the Church will not evangelise the modern world.

@Consume_Crash

7 ай бұрын

​@@bobaphat3676what do you mean by "self-made babble with its rubrics" ? Are you saying that the Old Mass was in some way deficient and unable to speak to the world?

@bobaphat3676

7 ай бұрын

@@Consume_Crash "bubble" not "babble" The TLM is not deficient in any sense except in it's role to evangelise the modern world through its liturgy. It is a Mass of an era gone by, as I said, no liturgy celebration is free from the historical and cultural pressures of the day. The Church is called to puts its finger on the pulse of society and then determine how best to spread the Gospel, the salvation and revelation of Christ to the world without any compromises to the truth. This DOES NOT mean in trying not to compromise the truth, one can hang on to the LATIN MASS (as if it were a be all end all) and pretend it is still highly relevant today. It is NOT. That ship has sailed a long time ago and it's never coming back to dock. The Novus Ordo is not free from the same criticisms as the Latin Mass, there might come a time when liturgical review is once again on the table.

@alphaomega238

7 ай бұрын

​​​​​@@bobaphat3676I did indeed listen to the video. Did you? They spent this entire video discussing the claim that some priests rushed through the Latin mass and that lay Catholics attended the Latin mass in a perfunctory manner. As I said above, this is laughable as a critique of the Tridentine liturgy prior to Vatican II. As for the notion that changes in secular culture should cause Catholics to change their mode of worship, that is typical of modernists and modernism.

@bobaphat3676

7 ай бұрын

@@alphaomega238 Don't be a drama queen, noone is changing the mode of worship as you say. Secondly, you need grasp the FACT that the Church has to learn from society and society has to learn from the Church. The Church has to understand the culture and how best to evangelise that culture without compromising the Truth, Got it? It's not rocket science, this is fundamental theology.

I've got a question: How many people have ever even attended a Novus Order Mass celebrated "as-is" without any options or modifications? And done with reverence and beautiful music? Hint: using the vernacular in the new Mass is an option, not the default.

I think for many trads they overestimate the power of the latin mass and its effect on the public. Well, actually alot of people do. I have an orthodox friend whos told me like 10 times if vatican 2 wouldn't have happened he'd be catholic or that reunion would be much easier with orthodox if it hadn't happened. Sure, buddy. I'm sure the orthodox would just complain about the latin or something else. Even if the latin mass was instituted tomorrow for the whole world to perform I'm sure we'd still be in the dire straights we find ourselves in. Maybe a little solace here and there with more traditional things but it would still be an ecclesiastical nightmare.

@reillycassel3574

7 ай бұрын

Agreed. We all seem to think the grass is greener somewhere else

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

I think most Latin mass attendees would settle for some live and let live. Constantly being attack about liturgical preferences by fellow "Christians" is exhausting.

@Consume_Crash

7 ай бұрын

I don't think we should immediately be closed off to the idea though. It would increase belief in the Real Presence at the very least, and I think if combined with a well-formed clergy, it could begin to change the culture of the laity by making them more zealous, contemplative, and increase religious vocations. There are always going to be problems though and we can't forget that.

As an 80 year old I disagree with older people here. I remember the mass in the 50s which my parents brought me to being 'out there ' and really nothing to do with me. And it was all mumbo jumbo. Here in France I participate in every word.

I have a poll that is 100% accurate. Who did you poll? My mom and my grandma. 😒

'Dialogue Mass' was missing

Surprised to hear fradd be right about the liturgy

I’ll add one more advantage to TLM. You could go into any Church in any country and immediately be in tune. The Latin was there in every Church. I have attended many Masses in Asia and Europe and yes, I can follow along in general, but I think it is a great loss to the Universal Church. Everything is being done to split the Church today and the local language adaptations will eventually aid in the separation of these Churches along national and ethnic lines. See the Orthodox example.

I wish I’d seen AC/DC live when Bon was alive (no offence Brian), and I wish I’d experienced Latin mass when we all knew what to do 😢

Now you convinced me novus ordo is better

One could ask why St. John Chrysostom wrote his Liturgy to replace that of St. Basil. The ANAPHORA of Basil is Longer than the LR Roman Canon, with everything being said. Wonder what people in Constantinople think about that?

How does he know Masses were rushed in the 50's compared to today? Sounds like a baseless generalization. You need research to determine the scope of a problem in any society.

@tomredd9025

7 ай бұрын

I served hundred of Traditional Latin Masses pre Vatican II. They were rushed and mumbled with little sense of the sacred. Thank goodness the Holy Spirit came down and brought us the beautiful and holy Novus Ordo Mass.

@nicolamcostello

7 ай бұрын

@@tomredd9025 that's your experience. But your personal experience should not be generalized to be typical of everyone's. Also what is the evidence that Catholics today are more engaged at Mass? When only 30% believe in Christ's real presence in the Eucharist and only 20% attend Sunday Mass, it's a stretch to argue this is progress in "participation".

We have to ask ourselves, regardless of whatever changes were made which the Church has the lawful authority to do, why was the culture in a place where they felt like ad orientem was insulting, Latin was bad because they couldn't understand it, that what would make it better would be to accomodate to me rather than to the tradition of the Church? Did the Reformation make us think that a clergy is unnecessary? Did the Enlighenment discredit authority and tradition and make us more individualistic? Did Industrializarion make us hate labor and destroy the community we were in, or perhaps make us too comofrtable? Did World War 2 make us lose faith in God and authortiy? The Church has answers to all of these.

What’s worse ? People attending Mass and “just going thru the motions” or People not attending at all - Like 80% of baptized Catholics in the US. A brief Low Mass is still more Sacred than a Novus Ordo Mass simply because of the number of Signs of the Cross. But both are Holy.

Have you read “Judith’s marriage”?

From my educated suppositions as to the near democratic transition of the liturgy from TLM to Novus Ordo is that the highly populated east coast and midwest cities drowned out the rural areas in that metropolitan life moved to focus on time utalization. If Masses were rushed it was because of these factors and that is why now you'd be hard pressed to find a Novus Ordo mass that runs even close to an hour in the east coast and mid-west. I don't deny that Catholism had become a cultural norm instead of actual belief in teaching but the change of liturgy was a complete infiltration by satanists and communists.

There's a really excellent novel from 1944 that illustrates some of these Pre-Vatican II problems - it's called "The World, The Flesh, and Father Smith" by Bruce Marshall. It spans several decades in the life of a Scottish priest and depicts a lot of the issues that Vatican II set out to address. I don't think the reforms were perfect - I think we need "a reform of the reform" - but it's a big mistake for traditional-rite advocates to ignore the issues that prompted V2 in the first place.

@TheGringoSalado

7 ай бұрын

I don’t think calling an Episcopalian service, the new mass, is cutting it.

Yes the documents said one thing and the practice was entirely contrary to the documents. Why? Octaviani and Lefebvre warned us as to the “why.”

We need a balanced view of what life as a Catholic was really like before the Council. I have thought about this issue much. Vernacular introduction was popular. No.one should try to deny this. I believe that people 21+ years old at the time of the changes accepted them because the Pope told them to but didn't really love them. The cohort who are die hard NO supporters are people who were _just_ old enough to remember the old ways when the priest was like God, you NEVRR touched the sacred species; never approached the sanctuary; mass was quiet, ritualised and numinous. People who were about 10 in 1965 for this bill. They only just instilled in the old ways only to have everything opened up in a dazzling flash of tambourines and folk guitars left a profound mark on them--as it would have on you or I had we been there. Children born after this may have caught some of the enthusiasm of the "die-hards" and heard terrible stories about the "bad old days". These people who were children in the decade after the introduction of the NO never knew anything else, had been told by EVERYONE who terrible the TLM was but never experienced it. These people didn't have the same hostility towards the TLM. The hostility decreases the younger you get.

Had aunts & uncles all raised in schools with nuns, pre V2 mass, were altar boys etc. Not one is a practicing Catholic now to my knowledge, multiple divorces, agnostic or in sects. Even my grandparents divorced. All of them talk about having to be at mass, fasting & tired of worry about hell. I see so much online about this supposed golden era the council wrecked, they were mostly on the way out anyway. No issues at all for them fornicating regularly in high school.

@Desert-Father

7 ай бұрын

My family went to the Novus Ordo my entire life. I am the only one of three siblings and the only one of twenty cousins who kept the faith. 70% of American Catholics today do not believe in the real presence. Post V2 looks A LOT worse than preV2 to me.

@johnrooney507

7 ай бұрын

@@Desert-Father Maybe post WW2 prosperity and the sexual revolution did more damage than any persecutions like my ancestors left behind in Ireland.

I went to Latin Masses as a child in the 50's. I remember being active in that I read along the English that was opposite the Latin. I did not experience any extra-ordinary beauty that I can remember. High Mass just had more singing. I have not been to a Latin Mass since my childhood. There are none around me. I ahve been to Masses that are very traditional and ad orientem with some latin, but not a TLM. They are beautiful. I get distracted when the priest is facing me when he is to be offering his prayers to God.

Title of the video should be "What did Mass Look Like Before Vatican 2 (according to someone's grandma)"

This accounting of 'history' within the church, services, realities of devotion, etc., from Pre-V2 isn't accurate or balanced.

but many times the people were in Church but they were not participating in in Mass. but doing all sort of Devotions.

Priests rush the new mass all the time.. they even give communion in the hand as a standard

Hey, how about we mix things up a bit? Instead of using the worn-out terms "Traditional Latin Mass" and "Novus Ordo," let's cherish the beauty of the Tridentine Mass while recognising the Mass of St Paul VI as normative. Both have their unique charm, with St Paul VI's Mass reaching back further into tradition in its own way. What do you think? 🌟

Isnt this Donatism?

I’m a daily mass goer with degrees in Latin and Catholic theology. It is STILL hard for me to follow a tlm (I’ve been to them many times). It’s not defacto more reverent, holy, or better.

@ltngrk

7 ай бұрын

MUST you follow it...?

@femaleKCRoyalsFan

7 ай бұрын

I’ve been going to the TLM for three years and I just listen for certain cues and then I can find my place in either the missal or this little booklet I have that I got off Etsy, which has the basics of the Latin mass in it Along with the English translation, next to the Latin. You don’t need to know Latin to go to the Latin mass. Unless you’re planning to be part of the choir, and you need to learn Gregorian chant

Yes, but the contrast between the TLM to the NO at the time was horrific. I like it to exchanging Tatum Ergo with Bongo drums. Not far from the truth….

Prayer Penance Adoration. The three Pillars of the Francis Papacy

@stephenlight647

7 ай бұрын

He’s added quite a bit of speculative theology as well. I wonder how that will end…

@Mike-pf1ru

2 ай бұрын

And communion for the divorced and remarried. And blessings for same s_x “couples”. Yes, Francis is as solidly orthodox as they come.

It's a very excellent point. Granted, I was born as the 80s were turning into the 90s so I'm stuck relying on anecdotal evidence as to how the typical pre-conciliar Mass experience was. With that said, if we're going to demand proof that said experience was commonly a hurried, disinterested affair, then I'm going to apply C.S. Lewis's bridge here and demand proof that clowns and beach balls are common post-V2 events. I've been to diocesan churches all over the country. Not one beach ball. Or clown. Yes, I've seen dippy stuff on KZread, but that accounts for...what...maybe a dozen churches in the world out of thousands? If social media was around in the 50s, I could all but guarantee you that we'd be hearing the same voluminous complaining about all kinds of liturgical problems. Heck, even at the TLM masses I've been to, there are still people who can find something lacking in reverence and let everyone know about it. The reality is that we live in a world where people are not satisfied with anything and need constant stimulation. Whether that visual stimulation comes in the form of rock music and video projectors, or incense and Latin, the obsessive focus on "spiritual edification" is taking our focus off of Christ and making the Mass, pre- and post-V2, centered on man.

Life is never perfect and neither is the church. Baby boomers lived in the period of the greatest prosperity the world has ever seen , and likely ever will see. It's very easy not to be aware that your generation hit the jack pot. The same is possible for the church. Were masses rushed back then? They are today. Did folks go through the motions back then? You better believe that they go through the motions today. Were there mass goers who were not particularly devout back then ? There are many many today.

I can understand the concern of cultural Catholicism, but I don't think cultivating devoutness in the individual is going to be achieved for 1 billion people from the top-down through papal enforcement in Rome (via Vatican II and a bunch of documents). That's not how growing in the love of God from within actually works. The Pope could issue out "ex cathedras" all day and night. It wouldn't make any difference. The fruits of repentance through divine mercy is what makes a difference. Prayer and fasting. Not papal encyclicals. Papal supremacy is irrelevant when it comes to growing in sanctity.

Rubbish. I remember the devotion of my grandparents. I'm sick of these self-appointed know-it-alls.

@bobaphat3676

7 ай бұрын

You sound like a bit of a know-it-all there pal. The mark of stupidity is someone who can't contend with an argument but shuts it down with an anecdote and that is why he's a theologian and you're not.