I remember during my flying lessons we would turn off one magneto (airplane ignition coil) and you'd lose about 200 rpm.

@bicylindrico

2 жыл бұрын

Same with the Mercedes twin spark engines. You can shut off a single circuit to use for diagnostics and see an RPM change even when switching between the two

@fchanMSI

2 жыл бұрын

Aircraft with piston engines have 2 spark plugs per cylinder is also for reliably not only power.

@FSXgta

2 жыл бұрын

@@fchanMSI redundancy

@SVSky

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, checking for lead fouling on the plugs too.

@gabrielgavilan5131

2 жыл бұрын

Magneto are quite a bit different than automotive ignition coils, its a very old technology with the main advantage of being completely independent from the aircrafts electric system.

When I was learning to fly, they used twin (magneto) ignition for redundancy. You'd test each mag by shutting the other off just before takeoff. RPMs would drop by 100 or so, meaning you got more power with two vs one. That said, cylinders were HUGE (90 cu in/1.5L each!) That, along with the antiquated ignition system, probably meant a performance bump for twin mags. Also, mag advance is fixed and optimized for twin plugs.

@michaelszczys8316

Жыл бұрын

As I remember reading somewhere Charles Lindbergh airplane ' Spirit of St. Louis ' had dual spark plugs. According to Charles he flew all the way to Paris and it never missed even one time.

@hibob841

6 ай бұрын

As I understand it, the magnetos are also isolated from the rest of the electrical system; their only job is to provide spark. Cars used to work this way, too (100+ years ago) but that design was phased-out as a cost-saving measure.

@MyFabian94

6 ай бұрын

@@hibob841 Exactly. Airplane Engine require absolutely no external electricity to run, a bit like a Diesel. I like to fly an old Piper (Super) Cub, (a PA-19, officially a Super Cub but it has no Flaps and only the left Wing Tank) and it is still a Hand Start and has no Alternator or Generator at all. It has a Glider Battery for the Radio that gets recharged after each Day of flying and that's it.

@TomAss-it5cp

6 ай бұрын

​@MyFabian94 uhh , ASE diesel technician here. Diesel engine has no ignition whatsoever wheras the airplane engine has a externally generated electrical current generating an internal spark therefore needing an externally created spark...its created by a component bolted to an engine just like an alternator or generator just a very crude and basic version of em, you can run lights and stuff off a magneto.an external electrical charge is forced to jump a gap causing spark .it comes from the engines rotation spinning a flywheel with permanent magnents attatched passing by coils of copper wires creating a magnetic field exiting electrons which are in microseconds stored in capacitors( some do ,some just yeet that shit down the wire) surge from there either through cap & wire or coil delivery contactors and dwell in the form of spark AKA a magneto spark ignition system. Diesel engines have NO spark and rely on excessive cranking to cause friction and pressures love child (heat) which detonates the fuel oil . Other forms of starting zee diesel engine are introducing a low flash point atomized detonation inducer such as ether or more commonly used today world wide a big ass resistor aka heating element known as a glow plug. Though commonintodays diesels they were notused in the early years making diesel startup a pain in the a$$ back then or for modern ford powerstrokes that hate life....thought id clarify that up for ya. The more you know.. .

@MyFabian94

6 ай бұрын

@@TomAss-it5cp I am well aware of that, but in the practical Application of an Aircraft Engine, the Engine requires only 3 Connection/Control Points the Airframe: 1. Fuel 2. Throttle/Injection 3. Ground/Shut-Off And then there are optional extras like Glow Plugs/Carb Heat, Wastegate/Mixture and so on. And if the Ground or Shutoff Switch doesn't work, the Engine will keep running until it runs out of fuel. So, for all intents and purposes of Operation, the Petrol Engine and the Diesel Engine are in this case equally independent and mechanical. There is no Digital Ignition Box, no Vacuum Advance, no mechanical Advance, no Coil to burn out etc. It's Electromechanical, but without any external source of Electricity. Same as a Diesel.

The Mercedes M112 V6 and the M113 V8 both have twin spark ignition and 3 valves per cylinder. The V6 was introduced in 1997 as a 1998 MY and the V8 was introduced thereafter. Both are 90 degree blocks, the V6 employing a balancing shaft to counter the uneven mass of this engine layout in addition to a 30 degree splay angle on the adjacent crank pin journals to achieve an even firing order. These engines have a SOHC driven by a duplex timing chain with 2 (smaller) intake valves per cylinder and 1 (larger) exhaust valve per cylinder. Each cylinder has a high output, coil-near-plug ignition coil. These engines also use a variable length intake plenum to increase torque at low engine speeds (longer path), and improve flow at high engine speeds (shorter path). Both engines are great and very torquey.

@phil955i

2 жыл бұрын

Correct, I have a 2006 CLS500 with the M113 V8 & I replaced all 16 spark plugs recently.

@18pluskiddo

2 жыл бұрын

Yup. I have a Chrysler Crossfire with the M112 and was unpleasantly surprised when I realized I only ordered half the spark plugs I needed 🙄. I never understood why the heck there were 12 plugs until I watched this video I just assumed “bigger spark make bigger boom” lmao

@betteroffdeadd

2 жыл бұрын

Great engines. I had a 99 C240 Mercedes with a manual, so I could experience the real behavior of the engine. Lots of torque down low, nice top end power (170@5600rpm) and a reliability level its successor lacks during its first production phase. Curious mix of low and high cost solutions. Magnesium manifold, but SOCH. No VVT, but twin spark. Clearly not cost-driven decisions. Anyway, I miss it.

@5hogg23

2 жыл бұрын

I believe MB made a twin spark V-12 as well.

@tigerpjm

2 жыл бұрын

They are very torquey, but they are also very truck-like and aren't particularly smooth in operation or sound and don't particularly enjoy being revved. They're definitely not a bad motor, they're just not very refined or sporty

I'm pretty sure Mercedes Benz has a lot of dual spark plug engines too. Great work,keep it coming!!

@Rourkeize

2 жыл бұрын

Yes M112 v6 and M113 v8 comes to mind. Probably the V12s too. The only downside is maintenece, but the coils rarely fails.

@zanettiza8032

2 жыл бұрын

My E55 M113k has dual spark plugs and being a 3 valve design its easy to locate them... Even before these modern engines Mercedes was using twin sparks in some of their engine but yes, Alfa is definitely the pioneer here.

@woongah

2 жыл бұрын

@@Rourkeize alas, at some point one has to replace the spark plugs, and I am told they are not cheap either... By my mechanic, who had bought my brother's w211 with the 2.6 litres V6.

@johncunningham4820

2 жыл бұрын

@@woongah . Modern Spark-Plugs have a very long Service Life . Brake Rotors need replacing from time to time too , as a Service item .

@chiefdenis

2 жыл бұрын

@@woongah they're not cheap if you give it to a mechanic to service them, in reality, spark plugs are probably the cheapest and easiest things you can do on an engine, and I've done spark plugs on an m112 clk, the only thing is you're now buying 12 plugs instead of 6.

My old 04 Honda jazz had a 1.4l 4 cylinder twin spark engine(DSI) . That thing ran amazingly well. At low rpms there was a slight delay between them. At high rpms they fire simultaneously.

@CyroTheSpider

Жыл бұрын

Indeed, I remember that tiny engine had an amazing amount of torque down low for what it was. It was also decent higher up. The mileage was also great.

Well researched video! An item of note: in both flight training, and aircraft maintenance training we are taught that the primary purpose of dual ignition is to provide more complete combustion, and the redundancy is an important secondary purpose. (I personally could see it either way, and like the safety of having a dual system while flying.)

Porsche also used twin plugs on their later air-cooled production engines. Also on some of their earlier racing engines.

@michaelpielorz9283

2 жыл бұрын

The Maserati in-line 6 cyl in the 3500 Sebring uses twin spark too.

@joshreynolds729

2 жыл бұрын

Maserati one of the companies part of the huge list of companies like fca belongs to and dodge hellcats still uses this in their hellcats currently.

@davidelliott5843

2 жыл бұрын

BMW 1200 boxer engines had two plugs but the secondary was there purely for emissions reasons. You “could” unplug them and feel no difference. I suspect their main benefit was to burn low octane fuel more effectively.

@arnoldwhite9347

Жыл бұрын

Mercedes also used it on the c230 kompressor w202

This channel got big really fast, i remember you having 150k like it was last week

@DanielFrost79

2 жыл бұрын

And you mean 'Bigger'. It's growing and at this rate it's not long until it has subscribers in the millions. Sadly that pretty much depends on viewers these days and if they have the balls to actually thumbs up the content they enjoy and are given for FREE.... which is a very low chance nowadays.

@sam08g16

2 жыл бұрын

One word: quality

@idus

2 жыл бұрын

Yea didn’t he have long hair before?

@DanielFrost79

2 жыл бұрын

@@idus Yes, he did. 👍

Great video! It was quite informative. In my experience, i've observed that the last twin spark heads make the engine run with less ignition advance if both spark plugs are used, i had to postpone at least 8 degrees of ignition advance when i used two spark plugs instead of one, in some areas even more. The engine was defintely making more torque ad horsepower and it felt more responsive overall. Also improved the fuel economy a little bit

@valeriotriolo8505

2 жыл бұрын

I forgot to mention, i'm talking about the latest alfa romeo double spark plugs head

Thank you for this content. Relevant to me as I begin on a '69 Bultaco MK2 Campera motorcycle rebuild/refresh. From factory, had electronic ignition (?!), single cylinder [two stroke] engine - with a head featuring "2" spark plug holes. (one typically to park a spare plug - OR - a compression release valve) I for one am all excited about fitting a modern, dual spark set up.

On a different note - the Honda Shadow 750 (VT750) has twin spark, both in carb and fuel injected form. Those are wonderful bikes and very popular. I’d happily delve back into twin spark for that bike.

@kulbiznic9168

10 ай бұрын

Had one, great bike.

My M113K uses twin-spark. Only downside is the $90 in extra plugs every few years.

@PeDe-uj9er

3 ай бұрын

Hardly a downside. That's like saying having a car is a downside because you have to fuel it.

The Alfa Romeo AR67204(CF1) engine that was found in the 145/146 and 916 GTV Phase 1(among others) produced about 110kw when new. Although there are several upgrades Alfa brought to the AR32301(CF2) engine that you found in the 156 the biggest change was the cast aluminum intake manifold was dropped in favor of a modular plastic intake manifold. The AR32301(CF2) engine produced 114kw when new. The extra 4kw was however lost when the AR32310(CF3) engine came out. These engines were introduced along with the very popular 147. The AR32310(CF3) engine still had the modular manifold and featured several electronic upgrades, the biggest of which was the switch from a throttle cable to a drive by wire system. The 147 also had a different exhaust and featured two pre-cats in the down-pipes with one more cat located just behind the engine. The AR32310(CF3) also had lighter piston crowns weighing about 10 grams per piston less than the ones used in the AR67204 and AR32310 engines. I always thought that the slight power loss between the AR32301 and AR32310 was due to the change in exhaust systems but the change in the way that the ignition system works migh have also played a part it seems.

8 ай бұрын

Excellent engines, sensitive to timing belt maintenance, nothing more, but compared to the design disasters and the very low reliability of today's engines, it was a great engine.

@roysoutdoorlife

6 ай бұрын

I've had many Alfa Twin Sparks over the years, the 75 being my favourite for handling. But the 147's I've owned over the years have been my overall favourite. A very underrated car. The 1.6 didn't get the variable intake manifold, nor balance shafts, and in my opinion handled better than the 2.0 (the 1.6 didn't get stability control either) but in general, either of those engines were bulletproof. As long as you checked the oil level regularly! I want another one now...

You see it a lot in thumper type motorcycles where you have this huge pancake of a piston, and trying to get the flame front to spread horizontally is just as much of a challenge as trying to get it to spread vertically. So using two helps to actually get it all ignited in such a large area. It can also be useful in 2 strokes for the redundancy to stave off oil based carbon build up issues- oh and the free/rarely used head space in them means there's no real downside to doing it.

Toyota had a twin spark setup on the 1.8L 3T-GTE, their first factory turbocharged engine. It was available in the 1982-1985 Celica, Corona and Carina. Toyota also used a racing version of the engine, the 2.1L 4T-GT. It was used in IMSA GTO class, Le Mans 24 hours and WRC Group B. It had a homologated version (4T-GTE) in the 1982-1983 Toyota Celica Twincam Turbo GT-TS TA64.

The Ford truck 6.2L OHC engine also uses dual spark plugs. Thanks for the video!

@joshuamartin6841

3 ай бұрын

Was gonna say this… I’m sure it was for emissions… but it still has them…

As always, cracking content. Very informative. You alluded to VW groups fuel stratification technology when discussing fuel mixture homogeneity. Any chance you could do a video. The idea of changing fuel ratio within individual cylinders is fascinating, and I'd like to see The pros and cons of doing so and the rationale behind a stratified mixture. Once again, fantastic content, you're a knowledgeable and likeable presenter.

What I really like about your videos is the ease with which you explain complex concepts. Hats off to you. Amazing work, keep em coming.

Excellent description of a complex subject , this channel gets better and better , keep it up and thanks , much appreciated

Another brilliant video.. I've been a licensed technician for almost 50 years.. i absolutely love twin plugs.. different sound, better power, fuel economy -maybe,,,, my 2015 Hemi pickup has twins,, what a pain in the ass and expensive (16 plugs at 76$ a plug)...I also work on aviation and motorcycles.. best is always twin plugs.. when I use to fly helicopters, i had a mag go,,, didn't even panic, just turned it off,,,,recalculated and returned home.. Keep up the great work..

Ford also has twin plugs on the 6.2L Modulars found in their 12th gen F150s(Quite rare), F250 and up Super Dutys and E-series Vans. Aswell as the 1st gen Raptor.

@stephenrich5905

2 жыл бұрын

yep I have the 6.2L F250

@mitch9521

2 жыл бұрын

@@stephenrich5905 They are great engines, very durable.

@MUredhawk111

2 жыл бұрын

They did it in the 80s and 90s with the 2.3

@ZZZHarpy101

2 жыл бұрын

@@MUredhawk111 Funny that he mentions "4-cylinder Mustangs...in the late 80's", which were 2.3L but put the picture of a 5.0 which have a 4.9L V8. The twin plug 2.3L was not available in the 80'. The production started in 91.

@MUredhawk111

2 жыл бұрын

@@ZZZHarpy101 ranger was 88 or 89. I've got one that's about to be replaced with the tbird turbo 4 cyl.

About 15 years ago I had 2 (!) Nissan Prairie m10 4wd 1988 model year. A blue that I drove with and a white as a spare car. These were not so common, so I found by chance one more just weeks after I bought the first one. It was a 2.0 engine of 100 hp with double spark plugs and two ignition coils. I regret today that I sold them. A very practical car with sliding rear doors and no doorpost between front and rear doors. Easy to load. Perfect winter car and fun to drive.

Thanks for explaining this so well! I work on motorcycles in SEAsia, and came across the twin and triple spark Bajaj models here. I was curious why, and now I know!

4:37 I don't know why, but this is, to me, one of the craziest things - cars going down a highway are moving faster than the explosions in the engine. Excellent video as always, I always learn something. I have a Suzuki DR650 with dual spark plugs, and I'm almost positive it's that way for redundancy. It doesn't really spin that fast, and the plugs are close together, and a DR650 is exactly the kind of bike that you're going to drop in the woods, which could break a plug.

@d4a

2 жыл бұрын

An important factor is the the area they have to cover. Combustion only has to cover 50-60mm and it's doing 16 METERS per SECOND. Whereas cars have to cover hundreds of kilometers and are doing 120 kilometers per HOUR. It's important not to imagine combustion as an explosion. Explosion is uncontrolled and a detonation. Combustion is controlled and it's deflagration. Hydrogen engines are dealing with far less controllable conditions for example and their combustion does close to 50 m/s at 1500 rpm.

@waynegarfield6607

7 ай бұрын

The same reason a supersonic bullet can be accelerated faster than the speed of sound while black powder and even modern smokeless burn or combust at subsonic speeds. The air is heated and expanding faster than the burn rate. Plus at higher temps and higher pressures the speed of sound is increased. Physical properties and behaviours change with pressure and temp and we assume from our daily observations within a narrow window of temp and pressure that every chemical reaction or state of matter remains the same. On planets on our solar system it can be so cold that gases on earth become solids and become rain or snow . Look what water does solid liquid or gas within 180 degree F difference. We cant fathom steel evaporating or something boiling at super low temps like. oxygen. Inside an engine is a unique set of conditions that causes normal atmospheric combustion to behave differently

I had always understood the use of two plugs in any engine with a hemispherical combustion chamber was because of inherently poor flame propagation in hemi chambered engines. Which I imagine would give you more flexibility in timing curves.

@professorneturman2249

2 жыл бұрын

Nitro engines are around 60° of advance

There is a HUGE amount of Mercedes-engines from the late 90s to the early 10s - M112/M113/M137 V6/V8/V12 Engines. These are not only dual-plug engines but also 3-valve engines (with 2 in- and a single outlet-valve). There’s also no space to Center the plug, so the sidemounted two, each fireing every second cumbustion to prevent the piston from gettin damaged by onside ignition.

Fascinating. Thank you! I have a twin spark 2002 W220 Mercedes-Benz S320 with an M112 3.2l V6. With 12 spark plugs and 18 valves.

My first car was a 1984 Nissan Stanza GXE. It had twin plugs. 2.0 litre 4 cyl was quite quick and smooth running. 5 speed transmission. Good practical car.

@nattadam4171

2 жыл бұрын

My dad had a 88 which had it too.

@JoseAlvarez-il3iy

Жыл бұрын

Que motor era?

@wadet73

Ай бұрын

​​​​@@JoseAlvarez-il3iy If I remember correctly it was a CA20E 2.0l (1974cc) 4 cyl

Twin spark plugs were very common in the 80’s when Nissan/Datsun equipped a lot of vehicles with NAPS-Z (Nissan Anti-Pollution System) engines in North America. It made a lot of sense in 2-valve per cylinder SOHC engines. As 4-valve per cylinder DOHC engine with centrally located spark plugs became more and more common, I had a feeling it twin spark plugs would become less and less common and that’s what happened.

@DAK59

5 ай бұрын

My Dad had one of the Nissan trucks with twin sparkplugs. Once he took it for emissions testing and the tester said that those trucks never failed. Testing was just a formality.

@jkim6200

3 ай бұрын

As a former owner of Nissan vehicles, the Datsun/Nissan syatem did not fire at the same time, like earlier ALFA syatems.

@jkim6200

3 ай бұрын

I loved the cars but hated the ignition systems and leaky exhaust valve seals.

Was pretty common on all Mercedes V engines from late 90s to mid 2000, namely M112, 113, 138 and 275. Nice vid and great explanation.

As with all your videos, I already knew a lot of the information, but I still learned a few new things, and I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation! Great photos and graphics! And I just love your enthusiasm, word choice, phrasing, accent, etc. All very cool! 😎👍

As a owner of a 2015 6.4L V8 Charger I can attest the benefits of using Dual Spark. Despite the high compression ratio and required use of premium fuel the motor hardly ever knock or misfired. Even though Chrysler uses this primarily for emissions it does help the engine on high RPM range. However I can see why this technology does not benefit or makes sense on smaller displacement engines since the spacing on the cylinder heads is quite limited. Now in bigger displacement engines this makes sense not just in sports applications but commercial fleet gas engines.

From the beginning I was thinking airplanes the whole time wondering if you’d bring them up lol

Great vid&explanation job-this basically answers all my questions re this burning twin spark topic I had for long.

Thank those for mentioning the Mercs C , E and S class 320 s V6, not to mention some V8s. I have a long history rebuilding Aircraft Engines. Lycoming, Continental, Pratt & Whitney Radial; all use now, and will in future use twin spark, twin magneto, not just to increase power, but improve reliability. I like watching ur vids, and reading the comments.

Man, it's taken a long time but I finally caught one! The newer 5.7/6.4 Hemi do have variable intake length runners. And, my beloved 3rd gen Hemi retains most of the advantages of a "true" hemispherical combustion chamber w/o the flame front problems associated with the domed pistons usually required to maintain a decent compression ratio.

I have a dual plug car! My 1985 Datsun/Nissan 200SX. My S12 has a CA20E. Definitely not a powerful engine, but it scoots the lightweight car alright. One interesting point is that the plugs are on either side of the head. They use a one step colder plug on the exhaust side than the intake side. Pretty clever I thought!

My mom used to have a Honda City (basically a Jazz/Fit sedan) with the 1.5L i-DSi engine. Only rated at 90HP, but it had peak torque around 3,000RPM, so it was a surprisingly fun little car to drive!

I've been running STD Dual-plug heads on my 1949 Harley panhead since 1998, initially in single plug mode with a magneto. After a few years I upgraded the mag to dual-fire ignition and immediately noticed much smoother performance and improved mileage, even on this old tractor engine.

Yeeees! Dual spark is a very important step for me! Thanks for explaining it further lad! Also, its usage on the airplane engines isn't just easier by that, even if they would use 4 valves, the compressed chamber on these have such a huge fillment due to their volume (Lycoming io-360 has ca. 1495 ccm per cylinder at a compression of either 7,5:1 or 10:1) that no matter how they're planned, they always have room for spark plugs. And really you did great on information there... Although i Don't get the VW joke. But that's just me. Also... As you talked about leanburners.... Leanburner engines look like a thing that could easily need some explanation, especially its correlation to catalysts.... As the 3 way catalysts can't convert said properly to make them better for emissions. But also i saw once a website, talking about an engine switching between lean and rich with an NOx storage reduction or NSR for short. I'm not too sure about the last bit as it is not necessarily my main base of knowledge.

The 6.4 Hemi has variable intake (2 settings), variable valve timing. It does not have direct injections but has cylinder deactivation (4 cylinder mode).

@ikes9711

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, weird that he barely mentions the best modern use of dual spark plugs, then completely ignores the eagle hemi

Modern chamber design had more to do with single plugs being the most common system now, with squish areas built into the head and piston the comb. chamber is effectively much smaller when the piston is at TDC, and the mixture is also more turbulent.

I enjoy all your videos. Your enthusiasm is contagious and your explanations are some of the few I know that keep is simple, but also include enough good information to get the concept across. I got hooked with your balancing videos. I've always had a love/hate relationship with balance. Obviously, the smoother an engine's balance, the better it can physically perform independently of any power modification as compared to a relatively unbalanced engine of the exact same specs otherwise. And I like symmetry and smoothness. However, I've found that over the years, I am really getting into less balanced/"not as even" firing order engines simply for the nostalgia and the sounds, since much of an engine's sound characteristics are created by how the exhaust pulses interact with each other pressure-wise and rhythm-wise within the exhaust system. And sure, older or not-as-well designed engines are less powerful, less efficient, and sometimes less dependable depending also on the materials they are comprised of. But just like the "thump" of a 45 degree single crank pin V twin, or the relatively unique gurgle of a 90 degree crank V8, the sound and feel make them desirable to many. So when I hear of a stranger engine than usual (say a 2 crank pin V4, an inline 7, or a 90 degree crank inline 4), I get really interested even if only for the sound and to find out about its balance/how the firing order and spacing effects the sound. The great thing is you actually cover topics like this pretty thoroughly. So my conceptual understanding has increased greatly. Thanks for that!

Kao i uvek - vrhunski urađeno, samo napred i dalje!

The HEMI material in the description would really be interesting for a Part 2 on Twin Spark Plugs! 😉 I certainly didn't know of this fact about the HEMI before watching this video and reading the description!

@CorperalSTEWART

2 жыл бұрын

However the "new" Harley-davidson M8 motors use their own 'twin spark" set up

@makantahi3731

2 жыл бұрын

it is interesting when have to buy 16 spark plugs and to replace it

@brianmason8400

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, 16 spark plugs can get interesting. Expensive and time consuming as well!

@gold5th

2 жыл бұрын

@@brianmason8400 Yup.. I had an 04 Hemi Durango and now have a 2012 Ram Hemi.. I have a buddy withthe 4.7L Ram who claims ot have 16 spark plugs.. but I don't believe him. Anyhow... I just bought 8 coil packs and 16 iridium plugs... yay!... y '08 Suzuki C109RT motorcycle is also dual plug so 4 plugs for it.. 2 you can get to easy, 2 you need to take the tank and airbox off to get to.

@Bartonovich52

2 жыл бұрын

The Hemi is a thoroughly obsolete design. Chrysler actually knew this back in the 1950s when they designed the Wedgehead. They could have easily pulled out all of the stops on a 440 to make a “Wedgie Cuda” that would have easily outperformed the 426.. but for product differentiation they used the Hemi and marketed something inferior as superior. And since the other Big Two were more interested in making money.. they didn’t challenge it. And thus it entered into history and the NHRA made the elephant engine the basis for their Top Fuel engines even though other designs would have been fine. I imagine reducing runs to 1000 foot passes would have happened a lot sooner with DOHC engines. And so Gen III… all of those nostalgic boomers who didn’t know that HP numbers were giant lies (forget underrated from the factory… no air filter, no headers, no accessories, not even a water pump) which is why HP fell so quickly after 1971 and the switch to SAE Net. Gen III was a semi-Hemi because there was no way they’d get a true Hemi through emissions. The 2nd spark plug was to clean up the exhaust.

My 2013 Raptor with the 6.2L V8 had dual spark plugs per cylinder. I think it was primarily for emissions also.

I never get tired watching your videos !!

In 1957, Maserati introduced its first full-production model, the 3500GT. Its engine was a detuned version of its straight 6 racing engine, as used in the 350S, which featured twin plugs. The 3500GT used twin-plug ignition from the start, coupled to triple Weber sidedraught carburetors. From 1962 it was also fitted with Lucas fuel injection . . . . and became the first car ever to be called a 'GTi'. Later 6-cylinder models, the Sebring and Mistral, used the same set-up in larger 3.7 and 4.0 litre form, and featured the script 'Iniezione' on the back. The power was quoted as being 15 bhp more than the carb versions, which supports your video analysis. Good video, btw.

2:43 spam ends

As a 147 Twin Spark driver I find this quite interesting. Now I know it's virtually useless in my CF3 engine :D

This explains why my 20 years old 156 never failed to start, had it for 9 years so far, had lots of problems but never an engine that refuses to start.

Right near the end you mentioned motorcycles briefly. Up until that point I had noticed you emphasized the word "car" when explaining the history of it. This is noticable to me because I spent some time riding a dual spark version of a bmw r1150rt. For those, I believe the main reason they did it was for fuel efficiency, and it was really effective. As a touring bike I was still able to get close to 60mpg consistently. I should never have sold that bike

I had a 2001 Honda FIT with I-DSI and it was quite absurd having a 1.3 litre motor with 8 coils and 8 spark plugs. Honda abandoned it in favor of I-VTEC on the smaller 1.3 engines, which is much better anyway.

@thromboid

2 жыл бұрын

I wonder if their reputation for developing ignition faults is due to unaware owners/technicians servicing only half the plugs and coils! (I have a 2006 i-DSI Fit myself.)

@StratfordDanBurrell

2 жыл бұрын

@@thromboid - well I thought I was having coil issues in mine, as it turns out someone had replaced only the front spark plugs - and not the rear - so I did all 8 and she was as good as gold. Quite the job for such a small engine.

@thromboid

2 жыл бұрын

@@StratfordDanBurrell Good catch! It is pretty hilarious having 8 plugs and coils for such a small engine. I was relieved that I didn't have to remove the cowl to do the back ones, though I did have to get creative with stacking up socket extensions.

@fleurdewin7958

2 жыл бұрын

Our country only got the 1.5L version of i-DSI engine in Honda Jazz (Fit) and Honda City (Fit Aria) from 2003 to 2008 . The fuel consumption is so good that can put some lower displacement 3 cylinder engines to shame. Additional 4 spark plugs costs can be offset by fuel savings.

@StratfordDanBurrell

2 жыл бұрын

@@fleurdewin7958 -I have the 1.5 I-VTEC Honda Fit now and I must say it’s better for the driving I do. - the 1.3 did struggle on the hill roads and commuting that I do. I assume as a town car it would be ideal and very efficient. I mean I am still getting around 5-5.5 litres per 100kms from my 1.5 litre FIT - so it’s still very good even on the motorway here in NZ

Another reason why rotaries are weird and great! They have had dual plugs for decades before the Alfa engine, and with nothing but real estate to put the plugs in (that long chamber is why they need more plugs) the benefits you mentioned helped rotaries to at least partially keep up with efficiency and emissions requirements of the time. With a leading plug wasted spark system adopted in 1986, they essentially had three plugs per chamber, as the rotor sweeps by the plugs rather than retreat away from them. This is a great mod to do on older rotaries that still used distributors.

@dollbagius

2 жыл бұрын

Not decades before 1914 I guess?😀

@84gssteve

2 жыл бұрын

@@dollbagius Yea, despite its design being from the 50's, Id say that most cars that had rotary engines would still fall into the modern automotive camp.....1914 was a LONG time ago!!

@petardenchev75

2 жыл бұрын

Alfa used twinspark in 1914, rotary engine exists since the 50s. How did the rotary engines have dual plugs for decades before the Alfa engine?? Dont get it

@84gssteve

2 жыл бұрын

@@petardenchev75 Simply comparing the somewhat modern rotary to the somewhat modern Alfa mentioned at the beginning of the video. Yes, the 1914 Alfa was WAY before it, but it's hardly modern. Twin sparkplugs would not be common in mass produced engines until the modern era (70's-80's, about the time computers and electronics brought about the kind of cars we still produce today)

Excellent video! Very Informative and thorough, as always!

@8:44 The note about the (modern) Hemi reminded me that there were also racers messing around with dual plugs on the classic Chrysler Hemi (such as the 426). The production Hemi engines were al 8 plug, but some heads were modified to accept 16 plugs. These were very high performance versions, usually running a LOT of boost (which creates a dense mixture harder to ignite), and many were running fuels like alcohol and nitromethane (so different flame speeds than gasoline).

Gotta throw in the ford 6.2 engine. Love the dual plugs when trying to light turbos

there is also a trend for multispark(rapid firing of spark) at low rpms. wonder what happened to it? or is it now commonplace that people don't talk about it?

@gorkzop

2 жыл бұрын

I also wonder this!

@davidwarland2680

2 жыл бұрын

Are you talking MSD, very powerful ignition, used in pretty much all top end engines, only one to have in top fuelers

@chiefdenis

2 жыл бұрын

Mercedes used that on a couple of engines

@sadakotube

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidwarland2680 MSD was one of the aftermarket system that offer it. but multi spark ignition seems like it was a thing a decade ago in some OEMs

@samsungtvset3398

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidwarland2680 Top Fuel engines generally use MSD Promag 44 magnetos. They produce one single relatively long duration spark.

This may be my favorite video you've done so far. Thank you.

Robisz wspaniałą robotę 👏🏻

Also on the topic of extra spark plug the four-rotor rotary engine in the Mazda 767 and 787 cars received an extra spark plug per rotor for improved combustion, despite both the 13J and the later 26B engines having a variable-length induction system. While it is true that introducing an extra spark plug is more hassle for maintenance purposes in production engines, I'm surprised Mazda out of all companies didn't try to squeeze more bang from the rotary engines, especially the Renesis engines in the RX-8 which was purposefully designed to milk every single performance out of a naturally-aspirated 1.3L engine AND still meeting the emissions standards at the time. Even the rotary range extender in the new MX-30 hybrid didn't have an extra spark plug.

@bababence

2 жыл бұрын

Actually all 13b rotaries have two spark plugs if I'm not mistaken

@TarenGarond

2 жыл бұрын

@@bababence The 26B have three

@Nafeels

2 жыл бұрын

@@bababence They do. The four-rotor engines in the LeMans cars had three per rotor, which was supposed to improve the combustion characteristics. Looking at some peripheral-ported, four-rotor projects online with just two spark plugs per rotor shows a HP figure somewhere around the 500HP figure mark. For context, the 26B in the 787B could reach 900HP peak, and even the “detuned” version have 700HP. By this example, I’m intrigued on just how much an extra spark plug could really change the performance of a Wankel rotary engine.

I forgot to mention, the aviator genius glenn Curtis in the very early 1900s when airplanes had radial engines and airplanes had double wings, had to overcome the problem of planes taking off from muddy Fields which requires more horsepower than if the runway is paved.. Glenn Curtis is the one we all need to thank for coming up with the idea of dual spark plugs oer cylinder.. that gave airplanes the increase in power needed for planes to take off from muddy fields.. curtis also came up with the idea of adding a second cylinder to a motorcycle single cylinder engine, creating the V twin engine because that configuration would fit neatly into a bicycle frame, which is what motorcycles were in the early 1900s.. Indian stole that idea from him, and Harley stole that idea from Indian.. Glenn Curtis in 1907 also went 136 miles an hour in his V8 powered motorcycle..

Suzuki made a 1.8L V-Twin engine that used twin spark. It didn't rev particularly high but it had the largest bore on a production motorcycle. They put it in the M109R (VZR1800.) I have a Ford 2.3L with twin spark plugs. I reordered the ignition wires on the secondary coil and it runs much better now that both plugs fire at once.

Another insightful and well-presented video. Your manor and demeanor add to the learning experience.

dual spark plugs cut down the lead time required for ignition to occur completely, greatly reducing the chances of detonation .. you don’t have to light a spark plug at 30° BTDC with the dual plugs.. you cut down the leadtime by half. Also, you’re not trying to compress a mixture that’s trying to expand because you lit a spark plug so far in advance. Vance and Hines when they were actually in the early years of their drag racing which gave them their big name that they still have today because of their success. They actually had a motorcycle engine that was four-cylinder and it had three spark plugs per cylinder.. gasoline burns very slowly in the open atmosphere. You could pour a stream of gasoline 50 feet long on the ground, stand beside it at the beginning, light it at one end, and you can walk to the other end of that stream of gasoline before the flame will get there. For an engine to run, you have to speed up combustion buy as much as 200 times the speed that it burns in the open atmosphere.Lighting the mixture with two spark plugs cuts that time in half. Especially with dome shaped pistons, which in my opinion is the worst shape for a piston/combustion chamber because, it takes longer relatively common for the complete combustion chamber to ignite if you have a single spark plug on the east side of the combustion chamber, by the time the west side of the combustion chamber catches fire, you have a high probability of detonation occurring.. dual spark plugs reduces that problem. Dual spark plugs also reduces the amount of the cylinder that is exposed to flame of combustion, lowering engine temperature, making it possible to have a higher compression ratio, which will equal more power if you can control the combustion chamber. It’s a win, win, win to have dual spark plugs.. of course the ignition system has to be adjusted to back the timing off by half with dual plugs vs a single plug for the benefits.. you can’t just drill a second hole and add a space second spark plug and keep the same ignition curve that the engine was designed to have with a single plug. That would be worse than having a single plug because the mixture would ignite completely as the engine was trying to compress.. if the engine came from the factory with two spark plugs. I’m sure that the factory has already calculated the correct ignition timing curve. I knew a mechanic specialized in dual plugging Air cooled BMW motorcycles. He explained The benefits of dual spark plugs.. I watched him do it to a set of heads. He had jigs rigged up so that he would attach the jig and drill and tap the hole for the second spark plug, then he had to adjust the ignition timing advance by backing it off halfway.. he also pointed out to me that the great aviation/motorcycle inventor in the early 1900s, Glen Curtis solved the problem of airplanes having trouble getting airborne when taking off from muddy Fields. The solution was to dual spark plug every cylinder on those airplane engines.. in case you never heard of glenn Curtis. He actually made a V-8 motorcycle in the early 1900s went well over 100 miles an hour. He also is the inventor of the V twin engine for motorcycles. Motorcycles in those days were nothing more than bicycles with engines on them. Glenn decided, and rightly so, that it would be easy to add a second cylinder to an engine that fits in the V of the frame of a bicycle. Of course Indian copied that design from glenn Curtis, then Harley Davidson copied that design from Indian.. of course that narrow V design does not have perfect primary or secondary balance. BMW with the boxer twin has perfect primary balance.Moto Guzzi engines with thier 90° V twin have perfect primary and secondary balance..My last 2 Moto Guzzi’s both had two spark plugs per cylinder from the factory..

@josecarlospoggian149

2 жыл бұрын

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Another reason to use twin spark in an air cooled beetle motor is to allow the use of a more radical cam profile and still enjoy more torque at lower rpm's which would be much worse without it. I have also experienced other minor benefits as well as you previously mentioned. The heads used are much more efficient than stock vw heads and in a motor that sees 8000rpm when required. However I agree that with other tech used today, Twin Sparks advantages only show in particular circumstances and hence its limited use today.

Happy D4A Sunday, all. Wishing you the best from sunny California!

The 5.7 in my Ram has 2 spark plugs per cylinder.

@DylanL69

2 жыл бұрын

All modern hemis have twin plugs

The most common use for them now has to be the Modern Hemis.

@nirodper

2 жыл бұрын

The most common use is aviation, there is definitely a performance improvement and adds needed redundancy

As always, the best explanation, great content my friend!

Early 80's Mazda B2000 pickup had twin plugs as well, may have been a B3000. I was in the service then, it was a friends truck. I run twin plugs on my old Harley Sportster, 45 Degree valve included angle means a huge dome piston, the plugs are on each side of the dome. Harley even did it on stock Sportsters in the late 90's on the "S" model 1200.

A *good* combustion chamber design for most passenger car size engines doesn't need dual plugs. Poor chambers may benefit. So may engines with a bore greater than about 100mm. A good example of "if you can't hide it, make a feature of it."

@Joe-sn6ir

Жыл бұрын

you're so full of crap. it all depends on what a person wants from their vehicle. take your patronizing crap elsewhere.

Aaahh yes. Quality content for us Alfisti! Thanks a lot mate

another awessove video! cheers from Brazil!🇧🇷

I think that twin or even triple sparks makes sense on engines with pre-combustion, like F1 engines, where two sparks are at the side of the main chamber and a single one is in the pre-chamber, so at low RPMs the two sparks ignite the air-fuel mixture, while at high RPMs only the pre-chamber spark is used, so you get even better efficiency using three sparks and a pre-chamber.

Tnx a lot was waiting for a long time to see a Video about the Alfa TS !!! Tnx

Wow, I'm even learning about airplanes now on your channel! Awesome!

I wasn't wondering this question but I'm glad you asked and made a video about it, very interesting cheers 👍

Such a good video, as always, thanks bro

Awesome thanks for filling in some gaps in my knowledge!

The Alfetta 159i had variable cam timing (though very simple) before Alfa introduced twin sparks - done for performance. Later twin sparks in these engines (hemi heads - long flame front) was just cheaper than designing new heads, and was done for emission reduction. Any performance advantage after that was just a bonus.

My bmw motorcycle had twin tipped sp plugs. But had some idling roughness issues. On advice from other owners I changed them to single tipped ones. And yes, that made a noticable differance.

Another great video, keep up the good work

Correct me if i'm wrong, but recent direct fuel injection have never been made to optimize homogenization. Carburetors were in fact quite good at it, even though they were mechanlical devices. Single point injection was also good at it, since the air-fuel mixture had to travel the whole intake manifold lenght before reachng the cylinder. Direct injection were optimized to run lean mixtures, but they are particle emmiters compared to older solutions, because of unmixed gas being burned in the cylinder. Otherwise your videos are great, and it is really amazing to find such detailed explanations on youtube, keep up the great work ! I believe your accent (and subtitles) also help non-native english speakers understand your explanations.

@johncunningham4820

2 жыл бұрын

Direct Injectors operate at VERY high Fuel Pressure that Atomises the Fuel basically Instantly . Into a Pre-existing Fire .

@spootneo64

2 жыл бұрын

@@johncunningham4820 gasoline injectors don't. "VERY high" fuel pressure is 2500Bars Diesel, and guess what ? They produce particles too. Also the goal of lean mixture engine is not to have a "pre-existing fire" but rather a pre heated air pocket, not hot enough though to get pre-ignition nor knock

@johncunningham4820

2 жыл бұрын

@@spootneo64 . Ah ! Tech Talk , huh ? Diesel Injection IS the Ignition Cycle for that type of Engine And Yes EXTREMELY high Injection Pressures . Stand Alone Direct Petrol Injection is at Very High Pressure , for fast atomisation and SHORT duration , at very slightly before the Spark Event . And Dual Injection , the Direct Injector WILL be adding to the Already burning Port Injected Fuel . I personally LIKE Properly Set Up and adjusted Carburettor(s) . And a Digital Ignition to go with it . More reliable and No Reason it can't be just as economical AND clean burning . Just needs Care-Taking .

Miki...you are correct. I have an '02 CLK55 and '04 CLK500 and both engines have dual spark plugs. A mechanic told me that the dual spark plug design of MB engines fire one spark plug and then on the next power stroke, the other spark plug fires. What I was told, is this has the effect of spreading the heat more evenly across the piston. I'm just repeating what a seemingly qualified mechanic told me. I'd be interested to know what the official answer is. I do know that Aston Marten's racing engines of the 60's had dual spark plugs.

In aircraft engines, if a magneto fails in a dual magneto engine, you lose 4 spark plugs (in a 4 cylinder engine). The unburnt fuel then quickly raises the exhaust gas temperature and one would have to reduce power. I guess it's better than losing all engine power! A single plug going out is less of an issue but it would result in a rougher running engine and this would be obvious if you had an engine monitor. It wouldn't be good to run it this way for an extended period of time. Thanks for your videos, they are very informative.

I love how clear and simple the diagrams are, if you don't get it at 5:21 pause the video for 3s and look at how the diagram perfectly illustrates pre-ignition- the flame front reaching the upward-moving piston while the other half of the cylinder is unignited!

@chippyjohn1

Жыл бұрын

He is actually describing detonation, not pre-ignition. Detonation after spark fires, pre is before.

I used to rally a Nissan Bluebird from the early 80s, I ran it with the Z18ET 1.8lt turbo engine. It had the 'NAPS' twin plug cylinder head but on those engines, the exhaust side plugs were disabled at high rpm and heavy throttle to prevent knock from two flame fronts. I not now that Beta has just released their 2024 range which includes a twin plug cylinder head for the 250/300 2 stroke models.

I’m very happy you pointed that out about the airplanes I never realize they had that set up

Bravo! Outstanding video as usual, thank you!

Could you do a video comparison of twin spark multi spark sparkplugs and pre ignition chamber ignitions.i want to know which is best I would also like to know if pre ignition with a added spark plug other than the main spark would work better and how.

Good explanation but for the details you need to search more deep in the technology , especially Mercedes with the 3 valve V6 and V8 have twin spark and fires the sparc plugs up to 5 times each per combustion cycle because in some situation the engine runs very lean to save fuel. Also for the Hemi, the 6.4l is available with an intake system that variates the intake air mass and speed. Always enjoy to watch your videos.

Smart has 3 cyl and 6 spark plugs, same as Mazda Rotors, 2 rotors 4 sparks. U forgot that 1st Twin Spark's had both Sparks the same size, newer one have one bigger and one smaller one, btw great video, i learnt something new :D

Cool video, love your work. Can you explain why a distributor would have two points and two condensers? I have a 1971 Fiat 124 1.6l twin cam and just got a distributor from a 1978 model and the new one has whole extra set of points and condensers. They both only use four spark plugs. Also should I install the newer distributor on the older car?

Excellent video. Recall some petrol run fire pumps use dual spark plugs and dual distributor system. Regards

I have a Kawasaki kle 500 parallel twin that revs to 9.5k rpm and I've seen examples of the gpz 500 that has the same engine but differently tuned, revving to 11k rpm with a single spark on each cylinder. I don't know the point I'm trying to make,I'm just mentioning the fact. Great information btw,great video.

I was just about to comment about aircraft engines, and then you mentioned them too :) Aircraft also use Nickel-Cadmium batteries which allow a lot of drain at one time. As it takes a lot of power to start an aircraft engine. Lead batteries would just fry at that load.

I would absolutely love a video that focuses on multiport injection! In an engine like the 4.3 L V6 by Chevy and it's PCM controlled ignition advance it's pretty cool technology that I would like to understand more.

@kainhall

2 жыл бұрын

look at throttle position, manifold pressure, and intake flow rate (and temp) (this is ALL just to calculate "engine load") then look at engine RPM . tweak the numbers till you get the best timing for every load and RPM flash that to your ECU drive the car . . its just checking a few select sensors to calc load..... and adjusting the timing (also factoring in RPM) it is LITERALLY a digital vac advance "old school" distributor

Once again with your site I went to school - Grad school!

Entertaining and excellent info...you are a natural 👍