I absolutely love this way of thinking. Keep things repairable and modular. EV design would benefit greatly from this approach.

I just found some prices for these Vaulta battery packs and was almost shocked at how low they were. Here in Australia you can expect to pay no less than AUD $0.50 per Watt hour of capacity for assembled LiFePo4 48v packs imported from China, Vaulta were about AUD $0.64 and $0.60 per watt hour for the 5kW/hr and 14kW/hr respectively. Thats astonishing IMHO, and to get the local support and warranty is worth paying that little bit extra too. There are many other battery brands in Australia that are well over $1.00 per watt hour. If these guys can get CEC approval for these batteries they will probably do very well for themselves.

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

and if you buy the cells yourself I think about 2900 $ usa for 15 kwh

@davewilliams7445

3 ай бұрын

@@ndudman8 Yes it's approx AUD $0.30 per Watt hour for the raw cells, but you still need the high quality BMS and various other hardware. Certainly a good way to make a significant saving if you have the skills and inclination to DIY, but for most people a pre-made pack is a much simpler (and probably safer) option.

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

agreed :) however I think most people would benifit by trying a bit harder and getting out of the comfort zone... perhaps they would be less prone to believing in experts and every hyped video that comes out if they had some experience and skills them selves... however its not going to happen :) @@davewilliams7445

@RoonMian

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, the safety certification is important too because if something goes wrong you have no redress against somebody in China.

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

yes and no... sounds nice, but still it depends on which firms you get it from, and that can pump the cost up... there are reliable sources of these cells that diy's share with each other... @@RoonMian

A number of comments here are suggesting this is how EV batteries should be, implying that the batteries in this video are equivalent. Having this kind of modular, bolt together system is pretty simple and obvious for home storage but not so much for an EV. The vibration, jolting, structural stress, sealing requirements, temperature extremes in operation, requirement for integrated cooling/heating etc etc make it a very different design and manufacture challenge for the packs. In many aspects of vehicle manufacture (not just battery packs) it has become a mantra that you either choose repairability or reliability but you can't have both! Of course that's an oversimplification but you get the point. If you want your EV battery to have a fighting chance of lasting the life of the car you are very likely going to have to compromise. If you do a home build and you are happy to tinker with your vehicle and do regular service to drop the pack and torque the bolts and check connections then fine ... but that's not what you want from a manufacturer. The result doesn't necessarily mean we have to go the whole hog and have fully glued together structural packs (and interestingly Tesla doesn't seem to be pushing this approach quickly to all models) but we are not going to be seeing "fix it yourself" construction in EV batteries in mass production in my opinion.

@andymccabe6712

3 ай бұрын

...thus demonstrating that the VAST majority of people who have 'opinions' about batteries .....literally don't know what the f*** they're talking about......!!!

@ferkeap

3 ай бұрын

It's durability for sure. Yet the overlaying reason is cost price. The packs are central and need high quality, low failure rate and simplicity of construction resulting in lower pack cost.

What needs to happen is this idea needs to be rolled out across the world and maybe put into law that all other battery manufacturers need to make theirs easy to repair, reuse and recycle. Cracking work guys!

@lextekkie8962

3 ай бұрын

Liontron Battery to this for Years

@Dirt-Diggler

3 ай бұрын

Lots of people and companies have been doing this for years. NOT new at all.

@alexhguerra

3 ай бұрын

@@Dirt-Diggler, done right are a few. The more, the merrier

@alanmay7929

3 ай бұрын

unfortunately its not going to work like that! just look at tesla which has been literaly gluing all the cells together

@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665

3 ай бұрын

@@alanmay7929 Thats what happens when you let IT marketing people give you computer controlled devices...not just cars. But if you judge a vehicle by the size of the Infotainment system and possible self driving and whether you can link it to your I phone and play games while your sat in traffic. You are just what they are looking for 😬🤦🏻‍♂️🧙‍♂️. 🇬🇧

In the DIY sphere, we've been building batteries like this for years. I've got 60kWh right now, expanding to 100kWh this spring.

@asabriggs6426

3 ай бұрын

And the cells often did not meet the EV certified requirements but are more than good enough for less demanding applications like home storage. Better to get the use from these cells, reduce the waste and support the manufacturing of the EV certified cells!

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

yep thats what I thought... have only 30kwh myself 60 is great :)

@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665

3 ай бұрын

Cylindricals are a pain esp if wired . Only should be considered for small volumes. What i would have liked seen discussed is blade packs ..they are naturally designed for literally plug and play architectures.. they use common collector support bars and come in various lengths now down to almost prismatic sizes. . We also know they bring in lower costs and other advantages most notably safety and thermal stability over other formats.

@seanoconnor8843

3 ай бұрын

Those 280Ah Eve cells are fantastic. I can just drop in a replacement cell in 5 mins.

@alanrickett2537

3 ай бұрын

Me too, happy to have a hand built if I know the hands that built it and how to fix it but if I am buying it I want it automated

Reuse is always better then recycle. Wish this fella all the very best

@geirmyrvagnes8718

3 ай бұрын

"Always" is a bit dogmatic.

@thekaxmax

3 ай бұрын

Need Both, cos batteries become unusable eventually and can't be reused.

Thanks:) A tip: check audio level difference between clips.

Many other companies produce these rack mount batteries that are easy to maintain. You can even buy the kits to build your own from cells that you buy elsewhere. ‘Cost effective in this application’=‘cheap’

NIce to see more battery storage solutions coming to market, and the ability to disassemble and recycle these Vaultas is clever and useful. Kinda wish these had been available when I installed my Powerwalls.

What an awsome product! Thanks for sharing these kinds of insights

This is so good. And keep on with this kind of videos who give us hope in technology.

Inspiring company - thanks for telling us about it. 🙏

Excellent episode; for static storage in partucular this has to be the way forward.

Always great to see products designed to be repairable. And they are located just down the road from me in Brisbane. I need a battery for my house, so I'll be calling them in the morning and hopefully placing an order soon after.

This is bloody great

I could see them using a shaped metal bar with little contact bumps for cylindrical cells. Then just screw it all down as they were showing with the larger pack cells. Good ideas all around!

Brilliant!!!

A deeper dive into the existing rules and regulations would help expand the complexity around how battery packs are manufactured. There are many safety related factors and associated safety standards that need to be considered with the design of any battery pack. Suggesting that a single company has a unique different approach to the design of a battery pack like this seems to be grossly simplifying many of the very complex engineering design decisions.

@andymccabe6712

3 ай бұрын

......you missed the point .....by about two solar systems......!!!

Being able to disassemble a large pack is 1 step, having uses for replaced cells of

Very nice indeed

Great video and company! Thanks for showcasing them FCS! 😎👍🏻 I have often wondered though, if you have a battery that’s been in use for 5 years and has lost say 10% of its capacity, and one of the cells dies … surely you can’t replace that with a brand new cell as then you’re charging a pack which has a capacity of 90%, which contains a single cell that will always be maintaining a higher voltage … unless the battery management system will just put extra load on that new cell constantly to keep its voltage in line with the rest of the pack?

@upnorthandpersonal

3 ай бұрын

It's not an issue - you can even use a larger capacity cell. You top balance that cell with the rest of the cells, and they will reach high voltage states at the same time. When going towards 0%, this new cell will have capacity left that is not usable of course, but it won't impact the capacity of the pack.

Seems like a no-brainer. Cheaper in the long run. Apologies for our brutal summers, Kryten.

Awesome!

Pretty neat.

Dear Fully Charged Show. Please would you consider moving the Fully Charged live event adverts to the end of each video? We are all bombarded with enough ads from KZread already. Yours, A Proud Patreon Supporter

There should be laws, demanding that all batteries be built in a way, that makes them easy to take apart!

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

more laws... how about just common sense in consumers or consumers who arn't passive ?

@Validole

3 ай бұрын

​@@ndudman8consumers ultimately have a need for a car, and if there is no option on the market with the requested tech, the customer will choose _something_. As there is zero incentive for car companies to modularize batteries, that option will never appear, unless the customer uses their representation to push for laws that give them what they want.

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

A nice sounding reply which dosn't seem to understand the tech and requirements for cars... these batteries are already don't by many people for solar etc... especially diy as you can see from comments here. A care needs cooling/heating... which these systems simply won't do... not to mention the weight etc or safty factor ... so another shallow wishy washy video from this political and rather blind channel... @@Validole

@eaaeeeea

3 ай бұрын

​@@ndudman8common sense or active average consumer is wishful thinking. It is the kind of language lobbyists use when companies want to shift the responsibility for making good choices away from the companies and towards the consumer. The average consumer (which drives the bulk of the demand and thus has the greatest impact) goes for the easiest and/or cheapest solution for their need. The average consumer won't concern themselves with the negative impact their consumption has on the world. A profit-worshipping company is happy to provide an easy and cheap solution even if it means destroying the environment, exploiting workers and using child labor. There's so much evidence on companies doing harmful things and so little evidence on consumer demand driving positive change. That's why we absolutely, positively need laws that protect consumers and the environment, such as enforcing easily serviceable and replaceable batteries.

@universeisundernoobligatio3283

3 ай бұрын

Better to spend your time making the battery reliable then repairable. To make battery repairable adds cost, complexity, weigh and reduces reliability.

Quick and easy repair, even if you don't have a spare cell you can replace it with a jumper for a reduced voltage operation. Important for off grid bush systems.

Lead acid fork trucks and milk floats have always had the option of replacing individual cells, and the old cells could be recycled. This is a more sophiscated approach with the same objective.

1:47 My Australian Tesla Powerwall battery is LiFePo (*not* NMC). It says so on its bright green fluorescent emergency response label. I think this slight amount of FUD is unbecoming of a small startup competitor.

@guringai

3 ай бұрын

Oh, I wasn't aware PWS were LFP yet. (I thought that was coming in the PW 3.)

@Sh3phrd

3 ай бұрын

Yeah little error there. I wouldn't go so far as to call it FUD though, he wasn't disparaging the powerwall just pointing out a difference.

@JeremyParsons

3 ай бұрын

Tesla is just starting baby-steps to make its own cells but they have been cell-starved for many years and diverted whatever they could buy to their cars for competitive advantage. Anyone can buy LiFePO4 cells from China (they rule LiFePO4) and build a DIY 48-Volt battery but this Vaulta 48-Volt battery does appear to be high quality and at a good price and a much better idea for most home users than DIY or Tesla Powerwalls. Tesla just buys whatever cells they can from Asia - even from BYD their frienemy. The idea of people putting NMC cells inside their home really scares me and I would not do that myself. I would keep even LiFePO4 in something like a garage/lean-to instead. Tesla Powerwalls can be programmed to listen to weather forecasts or predict outages in areas with a dodgy grid supply and they can be ganged together to be a virtual power plant so they do have some small software advantages but a very high cost in comparison with Vaulta etc..

I hope they will grow and succeed.

Repair/re-use is going to be more critical than anyone imagines in the not too distant future - with all the talk of war on the horizon and the hideous constraints to supply this will entail anything and everything in this area is going to be 20x as valuable overnight. Arguably the strategic value and national security value of renewables and energy storage, etc. is going to hit superstar levels of demand and interest awfully quickly. Hope the industry can cope with what seems invariably to become necessary and awfully quickly at that; capabilities in resource preservation like this will be quite so remarkably useful.

Same as a lot of others - products listed on the webpage, nice videos, etc., but no prices :( The idea is strong, but one needs to be able to simply buy the product.

2:56 Ah, 48V. Most manufacturers that we install have gone to 400V that allows smaller wire sizes saving on not having to buy that 3/0-4/0 wire needed for 48V systems. Not that it is a major manufacturing problem. Just change to high voltage.

Battery storage is to negate the increasing negative effects of variables. There peak. These peaks are visible in duck shaped pricing. The increased peaks and depths of prices (also delivery/demand) is the overall cost increase of electrical energy delivery. Simply increasing storage or solar will not decrease cost. Storage isn't bad, it's just a tool and not a golden bullet. Ps: nice insight about this company and there durability approach.

Great video. The audio balancing could still use some work though.

Can you cover pavement gullies for terraced homes to run charging cables? Oxford council have developed their own Ox-Gulle to sell to other councils but when I spoke to my council in Hounslow they said they have no plans to do such a thing. Trouble is there is no way the current few chargers we have will support EV owners if the growing trend continues. I think it’s vital for inner city homes to be able to charge their cars cheaply, the current local chargers raised their prices 30%! It’s still cheap but way more expensive than charging from home, we need to get UK councils on board asap.

I made my own battery. Everyone should have one. It will only need the odd cell replacing occasionally so it will stay with the house forever. It cost £2,000 two years ago and has already paid for itself 😊

Lots of Victron kit.The busbar shown repeatedly is a lynx battery-in.

Redwood Materials is at 98% recycled batteries in the USA. Their buildings their first enormous factory right now.

All that hand assembly increases costs for almost no practical gain. Plus a welded connection will have lower resistance and greater reliability than bolted. There are good reasons why almost no other companies do it this way.

@andymccabe6712

3 ай бұрын

Ha!.....you're trying to 'mansplain' to people who ACTUALLY know what they're doing .... ......pitiful .....!!!

@JRP3

3 ай бұрын

@@andymccabe6712 If you think hand assembling battery packs is innovative, even though it's the exact opposite of the direction industry is headed, I don't know what to tell you. Unlike you I ACTUALLY know a lot about the battery industry.

Fully Charge got a question about Battery care. So I saw a vid saying on the recommendations of a professor the Ni cd batteries should be charged as aoften as possible after any journey, basically keeping it up to 80% and not letting it go down to much unless your doing a long journey. Basically if you use 20% in a day top it back up rather than say letting it drop to 30 or 40%. Basically he said the reaction to recharge the battery and discharge is ultimately degrading it over time! So This is slowed down by smaller chargers say everyday (home charger) because you are degrading it much slower since most of the battery is already charged! Indeed I saw that MG recommends not letting the battery drop below 50% where possible which seems to verify what this vid was saying! What your take on this?

Consider that some brands from China are automating some steps of assembly of a server rack battery. I'm not sure Vaulta going to be price competitive with its slow and low volume.

@IdoCareForPeople

3 ай бұрын

this company will simply go bust...

@francisboyle1739

3 ай бұрын

@@IdoCareForPeople It cuts both ways. Automation levels the playing field since it eliminates the cheap labour advantage.

@bloepje

3 ай бұрын

I wouldn't trust that. And there is usually more to it than just buying a battery. Like the whole installation that needs to be done correctly. And again: I wouldn't trust a battery box straight from China. There needs to be someone that is either giving warranty or someone that at least knows the difference between a bad cable and a fire hazard cable. In my case I consider myself good enough to test the battery and installation for bad connecions.

Bolts for static applications are usually fine, but it is not uncommon for copper & aluminium contacts, being ductile, to deform in extremes of temperature. If that happens then the joint can have more resistance so would heat up and deform at a lower point/load. Over time, being unseen, that can reach crisis point, I have seen it. It is probably down to quality control, eg torqueing each nut. Which is why they spot weld for vehicle uses. There are some Lion cylindrical cells that have threaded terminals.

@andymccabe6712

3 ай бұрын

Er...you sound like you're 'mansplaining'...... .... these guys do make battery packs for a living, y'know....!!

@user-yi8uu1du3b

3 ай бұрын

@@andymccabe6712 quality control. Think Boeing! Ya flying any time soon?

more companies need to take on this philosophy

I wonder if they are looking into electroconductive gels with ultra-low resistance for the cylindrical cells?

Was it hot there then Rob? You seemed a little...distracted at points. 😅 I feel you bro...try working on large scale manufacturing shop floor environments mid summer...it aint nice!

LFP batteries have none of the expensive nickel and cobalt, an definite advantage, but also lowers recycling value. They also have greater cycle life and thus likely very long service life. If a cell is bad, replacing cells in an LFP pack makes a lot of sense since metals values in a traditional recycling process are lower.

Be great if you could visit Redwood Materials to see battery recycling next time you’re near Nevada 🌝

Solar is booming in Texas. Several months ago a very large 500MW solar plant came online. Even bigger solar plants coming online in the next several years.

It's just what he always wanted, a box that goes 'fzzzt'.

Holly balls. How many times is he going to interrupt him 🙈

Reduse?? Or Reduce?

@fullychargedshow

3 ай бұрын

We're mortified!! blame Imogen for the moment of madness, new thumbnail in place now!

@Validole

3 ай бұрын

That's British English, like Apologise vs Apologize

In the eighties we had fun saying that cars were built by Roberts. Pass me the spanner bob-remember the sketch? Anyone see the potential here?

Can't agree with Dominic more. Around the 15 kWh level is perfect for most homes. I've got a 16 kWh battery and I only use about 10 kWh a day, so I've got extra for if/when I need it, and I'm not cycling the pack so much so it should last a bit longer.

@davewilliams7445

3 ай бұрын

I looked up the Vaulta specs and the 14kWhr modules have 140A continuous output current each, whereas the 5kWhr ones are 100A each. So if higher peak power output is a necessity for someone the 5kWhr modules might be a better option.

@sarahjrandomnumbers

3 ай бұрын

@@davewilliams7445You're rarely pulling peak power from a home battery ona day to day basis. Also the 14kwh packs can do 140a as you said, which is obviously more. For mine I'm limited by my inverter, so the peak power i can pull is about 50a, which is enough to run the oven and rest of the place.

@davewilliams7445

3 ай бұрын

@@sarahjrandomnumbers Yes agreed, 140A / 7kW is rather a lot of peak power out of one battery pack! The system I am planning will be using multiple inverters for a total of at least 15kW peak capability, with the option of additional expansion, so the extra peak output will be necessary.

JB straubel - Redwood Materials (recycling, ex Tesla CTO) - atoms don't wear

like all older tech recyclable isn’t efficient use of materials. I really think that for the 21st century efficient use of materials requires a redesign of how things are assembled. Little to no fasteners, and no use of adhesives and bonding agents requiring super expensive chemical treatment regimes. This will be a $$$$ endeavor.

Most server rack LFP are built pretty much the same. All bolted connected cells, in a steel frame.. This manufacturer look to be 2-2.5 times the price of other similar offerings.

I wonder how much stationary storage could be installed for the cost of Hinckley C? Would it be a realistic alternative?

@timscott3027

3 ай бұрын

Probably would be quite a lot of batteries for the same cost. But it doesn't help create electricity, just moves it around. It's a different thing, so we need both.

@alanrickett2537

3 ай бұрын

Would need 50 percent on wind and solar and 50 percent on batteries.

@pauld3327

3 ай бұрын

Hinckley will provide 6,400 MW of electricity. Each of these units is 14 kWh of storage which means you will need 457,142 of these units to store 1 hour of Hinckley production.

@duneplodder

3 ай бұрын

@@alanrickett2537 Yes, good point.

@alanrickett2537

3 ай бұрын

@@pauld3327 and how much will HC cost plus 10 times that for decommissioning and it looks good

Before you recycle, you reuse, and before you reuse, you reduce. And that's something a lot of people still forget. Don't make the battery bigger than it needs to be.

@danielcarroll3358

3 ай бұрын

I calculated how much solar I would need when my house was renovated. What I forgot was the effect of greatly improving the insulation. I produce about 2 MW-hr more than I need now annually. Reduce does apply and you can add a bit for those LED lights with presence sensors too.

I hope this is just the R&D department because any engineer who has learned lean manufacturing would be cringing at the organization shown. What matters in batteries now is the TCOE and whether can production be sustained in the high-volume world.

Australia again... We need these things in the Netherlands, without having to pay triple the price for taxes duties and shipping.

I would like to see lithium-ion last, but so far most you can expect it to last is around 10 years for usefulness for a single application without replacing dead cells. I would like to see this type of thing take off whereby you can just replace the cells needed. but as you cannot just change a cell for a brand new one, you got to match voltage and capacity remaining on other cells as well, then I can only see this being good for 10 years for example before having to change all batteries or having reduced capacity like say a new car battery compared to a 10 year old car battery that has been used well.

As CATL have said that their batteries will come down to 50$ a KWh, a Tesla powerwall should cost about 750$ for the battery component. Add in the inverter and the casing - should cost about 1000 $ right?

@upnorthandpersonal

3 ай бұрын

If you can DIY a pack, you can buy 15kWh of cells (same as the battery in the video) for around 1100Euro (in Europe). A BMS adds another 100 Euro to that price. Put them on a shelf, add an inverter of your choice, and you're done. I have 60kWh currently, and expanding to 100kWh this spring. I'm fully off-grid.

@rogerphelps9939

3 ай бұрын

Tesla will reduce the price a little bit and rely on their name to continue ripping people off. New entrants with much smaller margins will take most of the market.

@antwnpowell

3 ай бұрын

@@upnorthandpersonal is it difficult to DIY?

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

nope... but theres a learning curve, and care must be taken... but plenty of online resorces, I have 30kwh @@antwnpowell

@xxtoni123

3 ай бұрын

​@@upnorthandpersonalWould you mind sharing where you buy the batteries?

I would make a battery that Part CNC and can Reject bad cells (Slow to Recharge or To Qiuck to give up it Charge and can self swap in good cells in a hart beat (A CNC Battery That can do it own Repair & Self Healing And Self Recycle)

europe is bringing right to repair laws for all devices, phones, laptops etc=== batteries can be replaced with out any special tools for phones, laptops,cars

@Validole

3 ай бұрын

Yes, the issue here is that car batteries are already easily replaceable. They're replaceable as a single, multi-thousand-euro unit.

@universeisundernoobligatio3283

3 ай бұрын

Better to spend your time making the battery reliable then repairable. To make battery repairable adds cost, complexity, weigh and reduces reliability.

@margarita8442

3 ай бұрын

On Tuesday, Parliament adopted its position on a stronger “right to repair” for consumers, with 590 votes in favour, 15 against, and 15 abstentions. The proposal aims to encourage more sustainable consumption, by making it easier to repair defective goods, reducing waste and supporting the repair sector. @@universeisundernoobligatio3283

@newolde1

3 ай бұрын

@@universeisundernoobligatio3283 why not both? Reliable and repairable don't have to be mutually exclusive.

So they talk about how they're building these packs to make them repairable and recyclable and they're entirely avoiding spot welding to accomplish that. While that makes sense for large cells with dozens of amp-hours, extending that same philosophy to small cylindrical cells is unnecessary and adds substantial cost and room for failure for no benefit. This boils down to the cost of labour vs the cost of parts. An individual 18650 is on the order of $2-5, but the labour required to open up something like a ~14kWhr pack and perform a "cell replacement" (of any size) will not be less than maybe $50, and probably a lot more. This means your costs are dominated by labour, and having the ability to replace a single 18650 isn't actually reducing the cost to perform a replacement. You'd be much better off just assembling 18650s or 21700s into standardized "blocks" of 10-40 cells using spot-welding, and providing threaded terminals on those modules for the standard assembly process they show here. This would make it easier to automate more of the assembly process, and means you're avoiding all the serious complexity around interfacing with bare cylindrical cells without introducing problems with contact resistance, vibration, etc if they're not mechanically fastened via welds to the leads. Sure, you can then only easily extract batteries at the module (rather than cell) level then if there's a failure, but you can always just recycle the module as a unit (since it will basically just be cells and battery tabs as a brick). Given the scale of packs they're producing and the low likelihood of individual cell failures like this, they'll still come out way ahead. Trying to avoid spot welding on cylindrical cells earns you basically nothing, and makes your job way harder and more labour intensive. The fact that they're talking about this like it's their way forward makes me think they're not particularly serious about making this an efficient and cost-effective option.

Just a battery built with a $400 kit from China and bulk bought LiFePO4 prismatic cells.

@ndudman8

3 ай бұрын

yep buy this channel dosn't seem that bright and generally seems excited by anything.

Reduse?

@fullychargedshow

3 ай бұрын

yep. Imogen can't spell. Amended now!!!

@MrAdopado

3 ай бұрын

@@fullychargedshow Good idea ... blame the staff!

$/kWh?

@bloepje

3 ай бұрын

16x eve LF304, 304Ah are about 70 euro per 16, so 1120 euro ex VAT for the cells. The battery box like the EEL 48V 16S V4 is ranging from $550 to $730. For the EEL I advice to use the V4 and not the V3 because the V4 has a electro-mechanical circuit breaker on the front next to the soft power off/on. So let's say you have to pay $2000 for the box with batteries, that would be around $142 or 130 euro per kWh for the box including the BMS. The cells themselves are 79 euro per kWh. To be clear: only 4 months ago the prices were a lot higher and a year ago they were double. A year ago, the battery housing and bms was the cheap part and they have swapped places.

I had a battery like this in my endfield in India in 1995? Every part replaceable

👍👍Buyback?

I think this is fantastic, but if this video is representative for the manufacturing speed, I am afraid it will not be very competitive.

Isn't recycling the myriad of different internal chemistries the biggest issue? The that of PV panels.

Ya...not welding the batteries is something that a lot of vendors do, and of course all DIY'rs Nothing unique my dudes It's more about reparability then recyclability, I thought they've developed a new battery that is easier to extract the lithium back when it dies It is a nicely built battery, I would definitely buy one if it was sold locally

Send this to Musk as he's making their batteries less repairable

@alanrickett2537

3 ай бұрын

He made batteries changeable, part pack swapping and repairable at different times and the market refused all of those things for cheaper, vaulta will have the same issue but not being American they may make a go of it.

@nakfan

3 ай бұрын

My thought too after watching Munro live (trying to) tearing apart the new Model S structural battery...

@devonbikefilms

3 ай бұрын

@@nakfan mmm, bot by any chance…..😂

@patemblen3644

3 ай бұрын

No, more likely the stupid reply box they have on KZread mobile now. I was caught by it too. It doesn't close when you got reply.

@nakfan

3 ай бұрын

@@patemblen3644 Yep, exactly... In my case through the Opera browser ... Sorry for the inconvenience 😔

I have 4 of those battery banks. In winter it isn't enough. Dec-January hardly any usable sun. In those times My batteries become backup for any power outages from grid. Its just doable to add more solar. I would need 3x more solar to get through those 2 months. 1 sunny day it takes 2 hours with my setup to fill my batteries for a days worth. We just do not have sun here in winter its's snowing or raining. Sky's that are grey means hardly any solar production. So I am saying where you are at you need to see how many sunny days you have in your winter months. For me I would have to have 32kw solar and 280kw of battery to survive winter. That is not doable. I will get a generator so if Grid goes down in winter I can make power. Also cleaning solar panels in winter even with my angle (53 degrees) snow builds up fast. I would need 60-80 gallons of gas to get through those 2 months with no grid. That is more doable. So build your system so you can survive a power outage that lasts weeks.

@danielcarroll3358

3 ай бұрын

I am grateful to be at 37.7 degrees. 4 kW peak solar is enough!

@dc1544

3 ай бұрын

@@danielcarroll3358 Yeah I am at 45 degrees and next to lake michigan.

@danielcarroll3358

3 ай бұрын

@@dc1544 I'm east of San Francisco. That is the same latitude as southern Portugal. It was 73 yesterday, although that is a record. Tomorrow 45 mph and two inches of rain. You can't win them all. But when we get a storm you get it (usually worse) three or four days later. Good luck.

@dc1544

3 ай бұрын

@@danielcarroll3358 Yeah upper Midwest always has low sun winters. In Iowa it was sunnier in winter but not a lot more. I'm in Michigan West side

We can't recycle CO2, but can recycle Batteries

@user-oz4mx1di7t

3 ай бұрын

No but trees do that for free

@trs4u

3 ай бұрын

CO₂ recycling is what biology is based on. The entire issue of Climate Change is due to humankind switching from CO₂ recycling to dumping exhumed 'fossil' carbon compounds' waste into the atmosphere. Recycled CO₂ is what "synthetic fuel" is made of - they capture atmospheric CO₂, combine it with hydrogen from water, and produce - for example - petrol. Recycling batteries could be net zero if the plastics involved were made from recycled carbon. Otherwise, absolutely not - they're a slight efficiency enhancement which, depending on how an economy obtains its energy, *may not offer much to Net Zero / Climate Change at all*.

@devonbikefilms

3 ай бұрын

@@user-oz4mx1di7t not enough I’m afraid and we keep cutting Forest down. Google earth the Amazon 😢

@rogerphelps9939

3 ай бұрын

But there are far too few of them for that. The rate of anthropogenic CO2 emission far exceeds the rate at which trees can sequester it. Furthermore, depending on what happens to the trees there is no guarantee that they will hold on to that CO2 indefinitely.@@user-oz4mx1di7t

@TheGalifrey

3 ай бұрын

CO2 is now being used as a coolant in A/C and heat pumps.

The problem down the line is the capacity loss will mean using old cells, bigger cells for less work, but still taking up the space. If you buy a 200ah cell or a 100ah, they are different sizes, but as the 200 hits the 100ah mark, you'll have a much bigger battery... Cell price drops don't help with 100ah cells coming in at £32. It's hard to beat a new against worn out.. They will have to make this more attractive cost wise. I see idiots selling used ev battery cells for more than the cost of new tech batteries of the same capacity.

That Vaulta rep was very good at avoiding the direct questions by answering but not ansewring.

Try to get a single cell out from a Tesla 4680 Battery Pack without destroying it.

You need to look at what the government in New Zealand are doing for electric and plug in hybrid cars. Basically there is a new "Road User Charge" that will mean owners of electric and plug in hybrid cars are to be charged an extra fee, around $58 per 1000 K's. How is this ever going to incentivise people to purchase electric or plug in hybrid. These charges do not apply to ether petrol or non-plug in hybrid cars. HOW STUPID!!!!

Recyclable or Repairable (Serviceable). Initially I thought they are using recycle batteries then come to know what it is, its both Repairable and Recyclable.

Until OEM 's start to play ball by designing EV batteries for repair and not for replacement only, mainstream customers will always be worried about moving to EV's due to the high cost of battery replacement. This I also believe is a large cause for poor resale value of EV's as whole. Which is such a shame. Battery failures are rare but the stories of replacements costing a fortune put people off but if you could say that the battery can be repaired instead of replaced customer confidence would go up, New and second hand sales would increase and more people would start to be part of the EV revolution.

@universeisundernoobligatio3283

3 ай бұрын

Better to spend your time making the battery reliable then repairable. To make battery repairable adds cost, weight, complexity and reduces reliability.

@MrAdopado

3 ай бұрын

We have to accept that EV battery packs and home storage are different physical worlds. The environment that an EV battery lives in is one of significant movement, jolting, vibration, temperature extremes etc. The packs have integrated cooling/heating systems of various designs. It is often said that in vehicle manufacture you choose repairability or reliability but it's often "impossible" to have both. It's a balancing act. Simple bolt together cells such as in this presentation are not directly comparable to what's needed for a vehicle ... great for home storage though.

@t1n4444

3 ай бұрын

Repairable? No mention of the labour costs involved. Repairing such kit looks to be very boring for someone trained/educated to a high standard. Would suggest you have to pay a high salary to attract the "brighter boys/girls" to do the work. Thank goodness hydrogen fuel cells/ICE vehicles are to be with us next year in Europe that is. As for power walls then not really necessary in all countries.

@francisboyle1739

3 ай бұрын

@@t1n4444 You don't need an advanced degree in electrochemistry to replace a single cell that's gone bad. If you're the sort of person who can replace a head gasket or even just your engine oil, maintaining one of these will be a doddle. And by the time these need to rebuilt in large numbers (that 15 - 20 years) it will probably all be done by robots anyway.

@t1n4444

3 ай бұрын

@@francisboyle1739 No.

I hear whats being said here, and great ideas, but it does not fill me with confidence. We should be down the path a bit further by now, with many of the questions already answered. Time will tell.

@Dirt-Diggler

3 ай бұрын

We are already further down the path, this video is WAY behind the times, maybe if the channel went back to being about all things electric and stopped being a political mouthpiece for the EV zealots , maybe just maybe they'd be a bit more up to date 🤔

@GolLeeMe

3 ай бұрын

@@Dirt-Diggler Agreed, but this is recent. So shows how far we have not come. Commercialisation is lagging.

Problems is they are hand build so there costs are high, connectors fail alot more than weilds so while these are repairable they are also more like to need repairing.

@bloepje

3 ай бұрын

This technology has been in use for years. And connectors do not fail. Welds do fail yes. But nobody in their right mind would weld prismatics... It's too absurd for words. And these boxes are so common that also the cabling is already pre made. I would ask you how much a 14kWh battery box would cost in your setup. The most important thing in the battery box is the BMS and balancer. The most important thing about those is that these improve with each software revision but also each hardware revision, and they are a drop in replacement if you just don't weld. And the difference between hand weld and hand screwed with all the right instructions means that the screw wins every time. The box itself welded or screwed is manual labor, so welding vs screwing doesn't really matter. At the end you still need to do thermal readings with a thermal camera with a max discharge and a max charge, just to see if all connectors are done properly.

@bloepje

3 ай бұрын

Also about spot welding: this box does 300A discharge and could do 150..200A charge. A spotwelder typically welds with 100A. To weld the bars with a connection that's better than clamping fat bars against each other, you really need some impressive power. Which accidentally also might overheat the anode and cathode connection inside the battery. However, spotwelding 18650, I 100% get you. Spotwelding is done for massive amounts of 18650s in parallel each only doing a tiny bit of power But a prismatic cell is 5.6kg, and there are only 16 needed to achieve 14kWh (or 16kWh, depends if you use chinese or real world values).

@alanrickett2537

3 ай бұрын

Yes they have been around for years and they have always been bad ask any car mechanic , electrician or heating engineer if they have more faults with connectors or fixed units like switch and wires everyone will tell you it the connection that are the issue almost always @@bloepje

@alanrickett2537

3 ай бұрын

Don't what hand weild or hand screwed a cheap repeatable relatable process is a much better idea​@@bloepje

I kinda fail to see what's novel and new here. They make battery packs from standard parts. Cudos for focusing on recycling. But "we don't weld" is not unique to Vaulta. That said it should be illegal to grind up battery packs without disassemble and testing cells first and reuse the usable cells.

I think you'll find that recyclable battery's biggest problem is thermal runaway 🤣🤣🤣

I've been keeping a close eye on the battery evolutions over the past decade and people call me weird because I don't belong in either pro or anti-EV camp because there's as many negatives as there are positives and just like how solar panels are difficult to recycle, so are EVs. At least with home batteries, the battery unit is a single unit that can easily be swapped out and companies like Vaulta are doing what should have been put in legislation for years but in reality so many lithium batteries don't get recycled & get dumped. Heck, in EVs it's often not worth replacing the battery since it costs almost the same as a new car so off the entire car goes to scrap adding even more waste. I remember an expert saying it takes 8-9 years for an electric car to be less polluting than a regular car because of the manufacturing process & how much waste it leaves after it gets scrapped and that number REALLY needs to go down. I mean, on paper EVs get recycled but in practice the cars are sold to third world countries where they'll get stripped until nothing remains that makes money so don't be fooled, in reality only the parts that make economical sense get recycled. Moving on to easy-to-disassemble batteries is vital if EV really want to be less polluting - some brands are already doing this but I strongly believe this needs to become a law in the EU. You can't force EVs on people and then in 10 years end up with huge amounts of cars that are not economically feasible to recycle. There's already talks of making people pay to get rid of their EV which will even further prevent people from buying EVs. So yeah, we still have a long way to go ...

@fullychargedshow

3 ай бұрын

I'll just let you know now, you are a fully paid up member of the rabidly anti battery electric vehicle brigade. Don't fool youself. You have just regurgitated the exact propaganda the fossil fuel lobby have been pumping out, backed by billions of dollars ad spend, getting the 'experts' to splurge out 100% spurious garbage about abtteries and you ahve drunk the cool aid and then eaten the carton it came in. So well done. Hope that helps you understand where you stand in this debate.

@redavatar

3 ай бұрын

@@fullychargedshow I'm sure some of it was propaganda, but I've heard a great deal more of people who actually deal with waste. EU laws have become very strict the past few years and all waste you produce in a company has to be removed by a licensed company. Because of this we had to deal with dozens of recycling companies a few years back and most of what I wrote above is what THEY told me and I'll trust the word of people in the business - because unnuanced black & white thinking such as yours is propaganda as well, just of a different kind since you're also blind to the child labour (= fact, NOT propaganda) used to mine cobalt to name just one. They basically told me (over & over since these were multiple companies) that a vast amount of garbage collected could either not be recycled, or only partially or it required nasty polluting chemicals even though the public may be fooled into thinking it's a greener alternative. A good example is paper containing PE which is used EVERYWHERE. Plastic has often been replaced by these paper containers because it looks more "green" but it's the opposite. Because PE & paper are fused together, neither can be separated and it needs to go to a landfill. Heck, even regular recycled paper contains all kinds of chemicals including bleach. When it came to batteries they all said the same thing: it also requires huge amounts of nasty chemicals & while it can recover lithium, iron, etc. it's the opposite of environmentally friendly. EVs always came up and it was eye opening to see people who work in the waste industry be so incredibly sceptical of it all. For one, the capacity for recycling EV cars is just not there (yet). If even a third of the population starts to drive EVs, it will be impossible for these companies to keep up which is why they said that the cars would be shipped to Africa or Middle East to get stripped by hand. So yeah on paper they will be recycled. In reality tons of chemicals & nasty crap will end up in the environment again. And please - this is not a EV vs petrol argument - petrol WILL run out and we do need to find a solution but being blind to the downsides of EVs means not enough is done to combat them. Every day we see so called "green solutions" that end up being more pollutive - it's time we do things properly instead of do it just to pretend we're doing things better.

3:05 whispery voice + tonking music = bad edit Jeez! What does the music add, apart from unclarity?

Deployed Worldwide Through My Deep Learning AI Research Library… Thank You.

sorry didnt' see much new with this :(

Problem with repairable batteries is batter technology is evolving so fast is that N years down the road no one will be making batteries that are compatible with your stationary battery bank. Cell size, capacity, chemistry, charge curves, plus since your cells have degraded your pack will not balance properly with compatible cells.

@andymccabe6712

3 ай бұрын

ffs ....preserve us from armchair experts....!!

@universeisundernoobligatio3283

3 ай бұрын

@@andymccabe6712 ffs ....preserve us from those who never designed or repaired anything.

Compare that to the structural batteries in the new Teslas. Unrepairable.

Owning an electric vehicle should be regulated to the archaic past. Much better would be ride-sharing vehicles where-by a company takes care of maintenance. And a much improved public transit system worldwide.

@andymccabe6712

3 ай бұрын

Yeah ......ANOTHER unrealistic idealist ......!!!

Failing to see how this is special compared to the DIY friendly, easy to repair and dismantle Seplos Mason. 15kwh for £2.5k in one box.

PeT ShOp bOys (loneliness)😊

just get EV pack and slap it with 400volt inverter and you get cheap and easy battery solution

Still can't believe Kryten went from being hilarious to talking bollocks about EVs & pretending there the future just to keep a KZread channel alive

Vruzened upscaled? Came to see which design they came up with. Left disappointed

nothing lasts forever