all characters are rushdown if you are crazy enough

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Even ZONERS XD

@huskyeclair5345

7 ай бұрын

PREACH

@harelrc7296

7 ай бұрын

This statement is the reason dbfz exists

@lordice5

7 ай бұрын

Soooooo true

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

@@harelrc7296 XD

NU-13 in the original Blazblue was way, way stronger than Happy Chaos. Nu-13 was Happy Chaos that didn't have to reload, here BNB sent you to the other side of the screen. Her projectiles she could constantly spam with one button did not insignificant chip, her other specials would let her keep you out. There was enough pushback on one of her supers to also put you at midscreen on block. NU-13 was so busted she paid for it for the rest of the series.

@MagmaMKII

7 ай бұрын

Well she was a boss character so there's that.

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Started as a Final Boss Makes sense XD

@Skuttie

7 ай бұрын

@@MagmaMKII she was still allowed in tournaments and wasn't even the best character in that game just invalidated the rest of the cast that wasn't Rachel

@stanm4410

7 ай бұрын

Agree with this. Nu-13 was a monster Zoner in BB. Especially for a Tager (grappler) main like myself. Most stressful match up I played in any fighting game.

@dogburgle5378

7 ай бұрын

When you're so good that you get killed and replaced in the next game and when you're coming back you're still limited by the character who replaced you even though they're not here

Stance characters, Gag/Joke characters, Weird/Oddball characters, characters that transform and gain a new moveset. There's a ton of material for a part 2. Would love to see you dive more into this.

@Pine2142

7 ай бұрын

Lowain from Granblue is the best gag character ever

@jakezepeda1267

7 ай бұрын

Trap/Setup characters

@brickpuncher1429

6 ай бұрын

Parry characters like my main man Anji too

@milliondollarmistake

6 ай бұрын

Wouldn't transform characters count as stance? Like Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer could count as stance changers, right? Does Joker count as a stance character or is he more like a "power up" character? Regardless there's also the character who is just a bunch of other character's moves mixed into one like that gooey nun from Skull Girls. And "summoner" characters who can summon multiple minions that attack automatically like Jack'O and King Dedede.

@epacgames9197

6 ай бұрын

Neko-Mech is a crazy good joke character. Being two jokes stapled together ended up being top tier.

The fact that Peacock and Nu-13 aren't the zoner here is a missed opportunity

@mazystarr

7 ай бұрын

I actually only clicked to say the same thing but about morrigan(UMVC3) and Justice(GG AC)

@yourauntsusan3305

7 ай бұрын

I agree, Peacock is actually insane

@judecider

7 ай бұрын

​@@yourauntsusan3305Damn right, I'm always caught off guard when a Peacock player rushes me down instead of zoning at round start.

@VileLasagna

7 ай бұрын

Also expected Big Band to feature in the bruiser spot. He's a common top tier in a game where it's REALLY DANGEROUS to be as big as he is

@matteste

7 ай бұрын

I sort of expected Hilda or Merkava in that category

I'm surprised you didn't include King from Tekken for Grapplers, he's a prime example. Other categories could include Stance Weird (Voldo) Joke (Bosconovitch) Fake Out (Xianghua) Charge (but I'd do one separate for directional charge and button charge i.e. Chun Li and Hilde respectively) Random (characters with random elements like Faust or Dampierre) Item Set (Bang, Venom) Aerial (Yosuke) Playable Bosses Guest Characters (maybe not quite applicable for archetypes but could be done in a different kind of video, same with playable bosses)

@francismakoni1526

6 ай бұрын

Goated list

@llmkursk8254

6 ай бұрын

Playable Bosses would be very interesting. I’ve not played many traditional fighting games, but the cases are usually extreme. Either they’re cracked and should’ve never been playable (Street Fighter 2 bosses), or they’re weak noodles. The latter usually happens if the boss isn’t a properly playable boss, and is more a returning character (see Shao Kahn), but I doubt many people would argue with me on that.

@NorwegianNoLife

3 ай бұрын

Yeah I was thinking King too. Those chain throws go hard and it's its own metagame for the duration of it

@Switcheroo4542

Ай бұрын

Dan is the best joke character imo

Having watched more of this video now, I feel like this could have been a series of videos, to include more examples of each archetype in order to give a better picture of them. Like choose one supreme example from "each" series of games, because the difference in mechanics in different series really affects how strong each character can be. Some have inherently lower power levels, so you end up with anime fighters sort of dominating.

@untrustworthyshelfing9953

7 ай бұрын

This! I think it would be really interesting to talk about what makes a good or too good example of each and what it does to the overall gameplay.

@Callmec_ls

7 ай бұрын

Sounds like one of y’all need to start a YT channel I’ll watch

@damsen978

7 ай бұрын

Good idea, people who want to get into fighting games would use them as an encyclopedia.

@AlexandreLema

7 ай бұрын

Totally agree. It would be a very interesting series.

@chrisfair11

7 ай бұрын

Why do you think he didn't do Charge, Ariel, Stance, or Counter? Another video will come with our responses.

For Bruiser, the Crusader from DNF Duel has a very similar “create your own wall” mechanic alongside some ridiculous hitboxes

@YouAlreadyKnowBabi

6 ай бұрын

Yup!!!!

Stance Characters are an archetype I'm loving so seeing a strong version of that is interesting

@s3dghost

7 ай бұрын

Lei wulong

@chrisfair11

7 ай бұрын

Hwoarang!

@MrHuntersnapp

7 ай бұрын

​@s3dghost love Lei wulong, just picked him up and learning him in tekken 7

@RX7jkr

7 ай бұрын

While not strong, Narmaya from GBVS is one of the stance characters that really stood out for me.

@pachicore

7 ай бұрын

Jhun from KOF02UM is pretty busted and the strongest stance character i've come across. He has stong, fast and huge normals with good damage, solid specials out of stance. In stance he has 2 huge attacks that leave you plus for a really long time, a launcher that hits low, a slide that goes fullscreen in a couple of frames, a dodge which is the worst move he's got, a big step kick and a retreating stomp to change between his two stances, and a guard crush move that hard knockdowns when landed raw, and gives enough advantage to combo into a bnb, the move itself or the low launcher which opens up his stomp combo. He also has a glitch where you can skip the animation of swapping stance after doing a move. If he had better combos he would be the best character in that game which is saying something in a game where a lot of the cast have tods, unblockables, infinite pressure and vortexes. We should be glad Jhun barely has combos

Faust has been an incredibly strong top-tier item throw character for a lot of the Guilty Gear games.

I'm impressed dude!!! The grappler choice was perfect, 100% accurate!! And really surprising from you!! That was a great pick man!! Excellent video!!

@mrsurprise2294

7 ай бұрын

For ai though gaira is the worse grappler in samurai showdown 4 he can 1 shot you off his throw

I’d love to see a “strangest character in each archetype” video that goes over characters who embody their archetypes in atypical ways.

Great video. I think the ultimate example of a screwed up zoner would be Old Sagat in Super Turbo. The only character I know of in a fighting game that had a soft ban. As for charge characters, I do think they're their own category. They tend to be very mid rangey most of the time. The way they play is definitely a thing of their own.

@2Eliishere

7 ай бұрын

Rugal from KOF is also famous for being soft banned

@heidibenner1577

7 ай бұрын

@@2Eliishere I didn't hear this until you mentioned it. But I can definitely see why he'd be banned

@spiggityspoo756

6 ай бұрын

I don’t have much familiarity with it outside of friends talking about it, but for another example, in JoJo’s HFTF, Kakyoin is one of the two characters to be globally banned, largely because his keep away and trapping game is disgustingly good, combined with literally infinite airdashes. The other banned character is Pet Shop, a really pissed off bird with true, low-commitment unblockable mixups and flight.

Hmmm I think you should've mentionned release HC instead of current HC as the zoner. Current HC can zone but it doesnt feel like his main deal anymore, its something he can rely on but with the nerfs he can't just stick to that like he used to. Also glad you did 1 per series cause tbh KI 2013 does all the archetypes and makes them the coolest they've ever been.

Would of course like to see stance characters and charge characters next time. Much appreciation for the Goro Daimon shout out, highly underrated grappler. Clark would be a solid choice too.

If you ever do another video like this I’d love to see the other styles of fighting game characters. I just always love hearing you talk about different fighting games. Always a good time 😊

great clips to illustrate your points. thanks for the upload!

I'd love to see another video going over other archetypes. There's a lot of good contenders to show how varied fighting game characters can be. Item throw (Faust, Peach (though SSB isn't popularly called a fighting game)), trappers (Testament, Byakuya, Rachel Alucard, Dead Apostle Noel, Cagliostro, etc), stance characters (Gen, Leo Whitefang, Vanessa), composite characters (characters that incorporate a combination of moves from other characters like Double or Seth), and chores/install/level up characters (characters that need to fulfill a condition to unlock their potential like Jamie, Arakune, Shun, Susano'o, Amy, etc) are great candidates I think.

@RX7jkr

7 ай бұрын

Platinum from BB was my favorite item character of all time. Her combo variety was insane.

@xolotltolox7626

6 ай бұрын

It's only really weird FGC people that try to deny smash its fighting game status

Dude, you really make some of the most interesting and comprehensive fighting game content out there. Keep doing good work!

This was very insightful. Thanks for making this❤

I really did like this vid! I’d love more on this, with more obscure archetypes, like Pixie or Control

Also jmcrofts, a potential new series you could do is a an archetype spotlight, where you give an in-depth look at a specific character of a specific archetype. You could a few characters for each archetype, viewers would gladly give you plenty of suggestions - I can’t see it not working

Examples of more archetpes: *Charge* : As you stated on your video, but what's unique to them is not only that they have charge inputs, they also get fast startup on these mobile attacks and anti-airs, when compared to shotos. The mobile attacks in particular are usually plus on block and/or puts the attacker in a safe position against opponents that don't have long reach (May, Blanka, E-Honda). *Stance* : As you stated on the video. On the examples I'll give next I'm going with made-up names for the archetypes. The FGC probably have better names for them: *Mid-Range/Reach* : Characters that have most of their game-plan based on their superior reach, but they're not a zoner per-se. They're good for checking rushers and poking characters with strong neutrals. Charlotte from Samurai Showdown, Nagoryuki from GGST, *Set-up/Trapper* : Usually characters that create set-ups when the opponent is far away or knocked down. Not always a zoner, because some of them just put the set-up move while the opponent is down and then either safe-jump, cross-them up or rush-down while they have to deal with the trap. Cagliostro from GBVS, Jack-O from GGST. *Power Scaling:/Buffer* : A character that have a special command that makes their other moves move powerful. Some get permanent scaling with those buffs up to a certain point, others get temporary ones (or they get spent for effect). Not talking about super installs here, but characters that can do the buff at will as long they have the window for it. Jamie from SF6, Sigfried and Percival from GBVSR, Green Lantern from Injustice. *Mimic* : Perhaps the rarest ones. They're characters who can mimic their opponent's moves or from other characters that aren't even in the fight. Mokujin from Tekken, Rogue from X-Men series (or some MvC games) or Shang Tsung from Mortal Kombat.

@TakaComics

7 ай бұрын

I got so addicted to Soul Calibur 3 that in my friend group I mained Olcadan XD It turned out that a college roommate of mine also played Olcadan for a challenge and we would just have Olcadan "mirror matches" and see who would win.

awesome video concept my guy

Great video !!!

I'd say Peacock from skullgirls is a stronger zoner because she can control the entire screen from any distance without any resource management while also having some pretty good combos if the need arises. Nu-13 is up there too for the same reason.

@gunosaguki1

6 ай бұрын

yeah peacock / mvc3 morrigan both feel like they're more "zoner" like, chaos is just a complete package

I love videos in this style. Even niche archetypes should get some love. Hope to see more.

xcellent vid, continue with more niche ones

Kinda new to FGC, it's always neat to see these video going across all games.

One archetype I would say is install characters. For people who don't know what install characters are they are simply characters that require a move/string that gives them access to more unique buffs/tools/setups. don't get it confused with stance characters where they go into a stance to create 50/50 situations. Some good examples of "install" characters are Claudio from the Tekken series to 2D characters like Dormammu from UMVC3

@terraneaux

7 ай бұрын

Also "Stance dancers" like Gen in SF IV.

@garymcginnis8511

7 ай бұрын

If Dark Phoenix counts, its her

@TakaComics

7 ай бұрын

@@garymcginnis8511I love that the Dark Phoenix game plan is "Congrats you win."

@impulse_xs

6 ай бұрын

Colossus, Silver Samurai, and Rouge in MvC2 are like this as well.

Honestly Peacock from Skullgirls 2e is the best zoner to exist. She has unlimited pressure from full stage and can teleport to keep pressure from the opposite side if you somehow weave through the projectiles

@leobanks6111

7 ай бұрын

If that's the case then Beo is the best grappler. My man comes equipped with zangief level grab damage, combos of a regular rush down ,character John Talbane air shoulder with combo extensions and a multi grapple like king? SIGN ME THE F*** UP.

@j3enator

7 ай бұрын

I would argue Deadshot from Injustice 2

@CamXXL

7 ай бұрын

So true dude By the time you get in on peacock you already lost half your lifebar or more just from the chip lmfao

Cool topic idea!

I've always considered ice climbers the most broken puppet character specifically in brawl they get a free 0-death from any grab against the entire cast they slow an already slow game to a crawl and because of the tripping mechanic you cant even use your characters movement to reliably bait them it was horrible to play against and to spectate.

I'm surprised the zoner wasn't from an Injustice game. NRS has made some famously strong zoners.

@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz

7 ай бұрын

NRS zoners are usually strong because NRS movement is ass.

@Courage202

7 ай бұрын

This channel hates nrs games, they are addicted to hadokens.

@HolTrain

6 ай бұрын

One of the first things that came to my mind for zoners was Deathstroke.

@Hermesmaybe

6 ай бұрын

He said he was gonna talk about games he’s more knowledgeable in and I assume he doesn’t rlly play nrs games

I’m really curious how they’re going to balance Akuma when he comes out in 6. Given that stun is handled completely differently than in previous games and generally character health totals are more standardized across the board in 6. As opposed to previous games like 3rd strike where they can be wildly different character to character.

@KaitouKaiju

7 ай бұрын

Maybe he will be slower to build Drive

@heidibenner1577

7 ай бұрын

They might possibly make it where his OD moves could cost more drive gauge.

@shaunmcisaac782

7 ай бұрын

That's easy, they WON'T. He'll be a better zoner than JP with more damage than Marisa and Cammy's walkspeed. Also the best divekick.

@Poison_Paradise

7 ай бұрын

@@shaunmcisaac782 we literally all said this about Rashid, and then Rashid came out

@kevingriffith6011

7 ай бұрын

@@Poison_Paradise And then we said the same thing about Aki, and then Aki came out. They're pulling out some unexpected tournament results, but all the DLC characters have actually been pretty mid in terms of power.

Thanks for including Goro Daimon. Him and Clark had me sweating just clear the round back in the day.

Little surprised to not see a section for setplay/vortex characters since they are one of the few, truly ubiquitous, styles of character that translate into any space, and while puppet characters tend to setplay, there are a lot more ways to setplay.

@DEClimax

6 ай бұрын

the thing abt setplay characters is that setplay/vortex is usually necessarily a secondary characteristic to a character design's main gameplan. in SF6 rashid is a setplay all-arounder and kim is setplay rushdown, in KI thunder and raam are setplay grapplers, in BB and GG jubei and millia are setplay pixies, etc etc. many strong chars in their main archetype are strong bc they have consistent access to repeatable setplay (if they arent just outright killing you with damage,) so it is a very broad collection of characters to be looking at.

@MarkoLomovic

6 ай бұрын

@@DEClimax Yeah and it is very broad to a point you have faust and millia in same group then for example.

6:51 another character who generates walls behind the opponent is Crusader from Dungeon Fighter Duel, he can even juggle the opponent with those. Bruisers are my favourite archetype. Characters I enjoyed the most are Goldlewis from GG Strive and Alex from SF5.

NRS zoners go crazy

I'm addicted to your videos, man

Well done video.

I'd love to see a video about the strongest characters that are based off of real fighting styles. E.g. Muay Thai, Wrestling, Jeet Kun Do etc. (And maybe some love for Tekken/VF 😉) Keep up the great work!

I don't know if I'd consider charge characters an archetype (mostly it's just charge zoner, charge bruiser, the rare charge rushdown, etc), but I think stance characters could be counted as one, depending on how reliant they are on the stage.

Would love to see a part 2! - Stance (Gen, Lei) - Rekka (Iori, Feilong, Kyo) - Charge (Guile, Bison) - Big Bodies (Abigail, Marisa, Kuma) - Footsies? (Luke, Benimaru) - Reversals? (Geese) - Mimics? (Mokujin, Eleven, Charade) - Trappers? (Testament, Arakune, Rocket Racoon) - Joke? (Norimaro, Dan, and the goat Shingo)

Nice take!

I see M.O.D.O.K and JP as a subgenre of Zoners called Trappers, where their "projectiles" and the like all appear at some measured point on the screen and often wait until the opponent does something to trigger them, as opposed to them being launched directly from the player using them. Also I hear people calling characters like Sagat "Fauxto"s.

Only other character archetype I'd add is what I personally call "Ritual Characters". As in, a character that starts off incredibly weak but after they complete their specific "ritual", they become the most overpowered character of that game's roster. The one example I can remember off the top of my head is Phoenix Wright from MvC but I'm sure there's others. He starts off weak and has to rely on specials to stall out and keep away the opponent in order for him to collect the correct "evidence" items. Then once he completes this "ritual", he can enter Turnabout mode where he becomes oppressively strong and gains access to not only absurd normals but also the strongest lvl3 in the game.

@pachicore

7 ай бұрын

3rd strike chun

@TypetwoAbsolute

6 ай бұрын

I've heard this archetype called Level Up a few times on the internet mvc3 has a lot of them: Phoenix Wright, Phoenix, Arthur, Frank West, maybe Firebrand. Others come to mind Adult Gohan dbz, Q in sf3, hakan sf4, G sfv

@xolotltolox7626

6 ай бұрын

Archer in Fate/Unlimited Codes can pretty much 100-0 any character if he has Unlimited Blade Works, which requires him to spend a bar of meter to say verse, and after 6 verses he can UBW

A few things I'd like to add with Carl and Shabrys in particular is that Carl's doll has collision so you have your sandwich pressure/combos but by having her behind Carl and moving forward you essentially negate some of your pushback allowing you to do really extended pressure sequences usually in the corner which can just melt people's barrier, and for Shabrys the doll has a command grab that you can combo off of while also getting checkmate scenarios in some situations as you can't block in the air for a few frames so there's setups where Labrys will get an air-to-air if you jump the doll or the doll will command grab if you stay on the ground and both setups loop into each other. Relius is also a puppet/summon character who had unblockables in at least CF where you'd scale a combo heavily and restand them with 236D and combo into his gear super, you then jab them to overwrite the super's fixed hitstun and force them to block or get reset by the rest of the super which if they do block you have unblockable setups using 236D(natural unblockable, 42 frames if unsummoned and 32 if already out) and 214D(31 frame high so 5B-2B-2C lines up a high and low) since you get 40 frames where both the doll and Relius are actionable which is not supposed to happen normally

@RX7jkr

7 ай бұрын

Relius is one of my favorite puppet masters of all time. They made him slightly easier to use than Carl but still kept the usual puppet shenanigans, which meant that more people would play him.

Definitely need a second part including counter/defense/parry characters which is one of my favorite hidden gem archetypes. I’m a certified through-and-through grappler main, but man I sure do love me a good ol’ slow-moving, heavy-hitting character with a special move parry or a few in their arsenal mmmm

I'd like to see either a version of this video or future videos to have some more 3D fighter representation. Tekken has some iconic examples of some of these types, like King as a grappler or Jack as a bruiser, but also there's a whole other world of archetypes available in 3D games that I don't even know if I'd know how to identify. Dancers? Bruce Lees? Maybe weapon fighters could use more love too.

@Poison_Paradise

7 ай бұрын

3d Tekken archetypes are just a completely separate thing Shoto is replaced with Mishima, because, as we have learned, having Shoto in Tekken is broken as hell. Grapplers are pressure based not free damage based, because you can break command grabs. Everyone in the game has two stances minimum: Standing or Crouching. Rushdown and Bruiser are fundamentally different because the game is 8-10 frame based, so holes in pressure are all bigger and blockstrings simply don't exist. It's just frame traps and you only get one try if it's mid, I.E. true trap. Bruiser just means the move they rely on to get plus frame into their counterhit frame trap are slow mids, and Rushdown means they're fast highs. Zoner is replaced with Keepout. Puppet is only ever aesthetic, it doesn't actually exist. Etc.

I could argue that Kenshi is another great choice for the puppet archetype, especially now in mk1. Crazy damage and (almost) unblockable combos and engages make this dude horribly difficult to play against

6:50 One fihgitng game character who's can build walls, and are a tough guy is Texas from Them's Fighting Herds. I would recommend taking a look, btw nice work, cool video

I'd love to see you break down each archetype and it's strongest characters in more videos.

I think if we're on the topic of zoners you could have also mentioned Vatista from Undernight Inbirth, or Vlov from Melty Blood Type Lumina. They both have been dominating their respective games for a long time now.

@vitorodino8760

7 ай бұрын

sorry no weeb games

@gyuigthy

7 ай бұрын

@@vitorodino8760 blazblue be like

@pon3d120

7 ай бұрын

While those characters are strong, they didn’t make the entire fighter a 2 character game like Rachel did. Original BlazBlue was literally just Rachel and sometimes Nu-13, who was also a zoner. Every other character in the game didn’t have the tools to catch Rachel’s insane runaway game.

@MaikoTen

7 ай бұрын

@pon3d120 Rachel zoning is not really a traditional zoning since she has to set up and throw things, BEFORE running up to opponents and attack. I'm Rachel Player BTW

@LegendIam1465

7 ай бұрын

@@pon3d120 I don't think you played much of either game then if you think that haha. I don't mean any disrespect, but Vlov definitely made the game feel singleplayer for a lot of people if the Vlov player was even remotely good

I think rekkas could be considered an archetype and also "unlock" character which has some aspect of them locked at the start of the match like Jamie or Susanoo from BlazBlue

@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361

7 ай бұрын

What would differentiate an "unlock" character from an install character? (not sure if they're the samething now)

@sablesoul

7 ай бұрын

@@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361 It's likely the same thing and they are just calling it something else.

@chillaxboi2109

7 ай бұрын

I would argue that Jamie, like HO Sol is an install character. I think Rekka characters are basically Unlock characters, at least in the previous gen where they gated powerful moves behind a rekka. There are characters that unlock moves through performing rekkas. ABA seems to be closest to what i am talking about @@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361

@Poison_Paradise

7 ай бұрын

Rekka is just a form of attack; just the name of the move type some Rushdown chars use You wouldn't say DP is an archetype even if someone has multiple and it's their main gameplan to use it Zangief isn't an SPD character he is a Grappler

@rachetmarvel931

6 ай бұрын

We call them snowball characters.

I think a cool character archetype you didn’t mention was the special meter character. Characters that have their own special meter along with the meter(s) that everybody else has like Johnny Cage in MK1 or Phoenix Wright in UMvC3. They tend to usually be pretty interesting characters so that’s why I like them. I was also thinking about item characters like Cody and Vega in SF4 but I don’t know if there’s any other games that have the same thing.

Love your videos ❤❤❤

My list for these archetypes would've been: Rushdown - Pet Shop [Jojo's] Zoner - Kabal [MK9] Grappler - Marduk [T7] (was tempted to say Marth from SSBM but I feel like that's kind of cheating) Bruiser - Nagoriyuki [GGST] (I'm not sure if he fits perfectly but I feel fits better here than any other category) Puppet - Carl [BBCT] Shoto - Akuma [Literally every game he's in] Definitely cool to see KoF and KI be talked about, I definitely wouldn't have known enough about them to know how strong those guys are

@kevingriffith6011

7 ай бұрын

I'm 100% with you on a few of these. JM Doesn't have a lot of experience with NRS games so I forgive him, but NRS zoners are in a whole other league.

I think Ninja should qualify as an archetype, though it's a subset of rushdown, but a purer kind of rushdown in my opinion than a character that can fly and has a wide variety of powerful projectiles. Ninjas typically have: >a teleport / teleport-like/lite dash >a weak projectile or two that is used more for positioning or interruption than pure zoning >above average speed >above average air mobility >additional special tools for tricky and deceptive gameplay >above average combo game among perhaps other aspects, but nevertheless a defined set of tools Ibuki, Strider and Wesker even, Seth (Under Night), Fox Falco and Wolf, Raven (Tekken), Ryu Hayabusa, Chipp, Lord Raptor maybe, the list goes on. It's an underrated archetype overall, in terms of recognition and discussion, but it's always the style of character I initially gravitate toward.

@MILDMONSTER1234

7 ай бұрын

Most mixup and pixie characters are ninjas tbh

@bbyjohn11

7 ай бұрын

I think they’d fall into dash characters like Abel, guy, Kimberly, el fuerte, etc

@MusicoftheDamned

7 ай бұрын

I had a chuckle at Wesker being classified as ninja since he'd probably be *so* pissed, and then I had bigger chuckle at realizing that despite having the most visually coded ninja characters of like any series, relatively few characters in the _Mortal Kombat_ series would fall within it. This despite all being a series with a bunch of teleporters. Heh.

@interloc1290

7 ай бұрын

I waaant to agree … but I feel like more elaboration is necessary before I’m sold. For ninja to be defined archetype or sub-type what do they have (or lack) that other rush down does not? For example I consider “keep away” a distinct sub class of “zoner”. All “zoner”s have long ranged normal/projectiles BUT where zoners have ONE close quarters zone control move keep away does not. They instead have like an escape move like a teleport or back dash. Guile as a zoner gets a flash kick, Dhalsim as keep away does not. Instead a teleport Samus/Belmont as have Up-B (screw attack and uppercut respectively) Snake and Minmin and Megaman do not. I think something with teleport maybe sets like Wesker apart as a ninja where Zero and Wolverine are rush down. The problem is dash moves often serve the same function as a teleport maybe it’s less versatile but wolverines dashing claw attack and zeros enfugin lightning dive move for all intents and purposes are teleports. They mix the opponent up to start combos and provide mobility. So maaayve in theory an actual intangible teleport is the defining characteristic? but I dunno don’t feel distinct enough kind of like splitting hairs. What you think fam?

@yourdagan

6 ай бұрын

@@interloc1290 the distinction between "zoner and keepaway" is novel to me, and worth pondering I think that fighting games have gone on for so long now that so many combinations of individual mechanics have been tried for unique characters over the years, with little regard toward maintaining some idea of pure consistency around what kind of characters should get which kind of moves consequently, I don't think it's possible to isolate any one thing we can agree upon ninjas as having and say, "This is the defining trait of a ninja character"---after all, didn't Dhalsim get the first teleport? And he's not a ninja at all. we know that because there's a conception of a loose *aggregate* of necessary characteristics to defining a ninja proper---for example: has to be fast, has to have an above-average combo game, has to have well above average mobility (and that includes teleports and otherwise invisible/invincible dashes of a "phasing" sort; a charging attack like Yun's punch doesn't count, while Yang's super speed dash could count ), and *some* kind of weaponry or magic no matter how low damage but almost always with a staggering effect, and lastly even you could say below average health as a means to try to counter these advantages. I think if you hold the above as the idea of what a ninja should be like, you can still manage to distinguish them from some blob/generic conception of a "rushdown" character. Rushdown characters get teleports as a luxury. Rushdown characters are lucky to get a projectile or some kind of special energy attacks. Rushdown characters are usually designed to use their mobility to barge in to the foe's space, whereas a ninja's mobility is often designed to offer the character a respectable amount of evasiveness as defense on top of the ability to approach (and approach *craftily*/trickily, it must be added, as opposed to the typical straightforward nature of a generic rushdown's mobility), given their typical frailty; this is also because of the difference in combo ability, where a rushdown is designed to be able to stay glued to the foe, while a ninja may have been tweaked to be incapable of maintaining inescapable corner pressure or some other type of touch of death scenarios. I do think there's a lot of room to debate about the limits of what counts as a "teleport", if we open up the field beyond merely needing to invincibly disappear and reappear some distance away from activation. Even so, there's still the couple other traits I've mentioned that distinguish, I believe, the majority of ninjas from other archetypes, when taken as a whole. I hope this has made it clear how they form a pattern that isn't actually shared by any other type of character.

Great video! It would be cool if you listed several contenders for the title of strongest character and then the final winner.

More of these please!!!

You see that HC is quite unbalanced when jmcrofts is talking about his amazing keepaway game....while he his doing insane corner pressure from up close in the background

Dnf dual doesn’t count lol

Cool video! There is also glass cannon chars and install chars at top of my head.

Other archetypes I'd like to see: Set-up, trap, stance

@Poison_Paradise

7 ай бұрын

I think a better word for "set-up" is Install, because trap characters have to "set-up" their hazards or debuffs, but they do not Install them Install, Trap, Stance Comeback characters are also maybe an archetype, but my main example is Lucky Chloe from Tekken 7, and Tekken archetypes are completely skewed variations of normal FG ones.

i dont think its quite accurate to call magneto and hc rushdown and zoner characters imo. part of what makes them so strong is that they’re so good at forcing their way in OR keeping the opponent out depending on what they want to do

No King?? Mentioning Grapplers but no King is crazy. 😢

I would love another video covering some obscure "archetypes" as someone who doesn't know much about fighting games videos like these are very interesting to watch and learn some history

Glad that rekka at least got an honorable mention, because Fei Long has always been one of my favorite characters, and I'm pretty salty that he hasn't really been in any of the recent games.

Personally I think Fox from Melee is the most iconic rushdown character of all time. He is so well-known as the mascot of the game that even non-melee players have made memes about how oppressive he is.

Haven't seen the video yet, but if you can consider platform fighters valid, and mods at that, I'd recommend you look at King Dedede in Brawl Minus for an example of a strong and fun Puppet character. He can control the waddledees in thay game, on top of being a sturdy, hard-hitting threat in his own right.

fantastic video, hoping to see a long-winded analysis of characters you could only put in the '???' category

Hell yeah Aganos! He was so fun to play and it was interesting for such a slow character to require setting up for the things you want to do. I also loved how he had so many options of how to spend his unique resource... even to the point where you can take your club and swing it or choose to throw it at the opponent. XD Also, I find armor to be a very frustrating mechanic (often super cheap way to avoid footsies) but it wasn't so bad in this case for a number of reasons, including the fact that heavy attacks against him would ignore armor. Aganos is one of the most unique and well designed fighting game characters of all time. Rarely do you play a slow character in a game and not feel horribly disadvantaged by it... but he feels amazing.

I know you don’t really play platform fighters, but I’m still kinda sad you didn’t even talk briefly about anyone from them. Like Rosalina was a notoriously good puppet fighter in Smash 4. Or Sylvanos in Rivals was such a good zoner that they eventually had to completely rework a few of his normals with new animations.

Love these videos, tell us more about the other archetypes! Get obscure, get Voldo weird

Solid list. I assume you wanted game variety since I think Cable would have also been a fantastic rep for zoners. Goro is a great, if lesser known, pick.

Personally I think this video should’ve had honorable mentions because there were a lot of essential picks missing, great video either way🫶🏼

I'd love to see your picks for stance characters and counter-zoners

If you where to do a second part I think a good few categories would be Joke characters Trap/setup characters powerup/install characters (I.e Jamie, Ultimate gohan) Punish characters (characters who are usually defensive but have massive strong moves that do a lot of damage) You can do more niche ones too like Item play characters, switch in characters, and many more.

I know it's not strictly a FG but Bowser on Smash for. is an honorable mention: He was a quite powerful grappler that had his strenghts: Had a good ground and air speed, decent frame data with some fast jabs and invincible frames on his limbs/shell, a solid counterpick for some toptiers and won a couple of regional tournaments.

i think you should've given an honorable mention to accent core pot, his strike throw was crazy as anything could've been a tick throw with HFB and he also had crazy combos with APB and on top of that he had unblockable loops that he could get off of basically anything, including a 18 frame overhead that shared a startup animation with a low i know a lot of these strengths arent the grab but thats why i said honorable mention

i almost agree with all the list altough get a few alternates for a few. but the biggest one is i think clark generally is a better grappler than daimon through all the games since he has a few more trickks under his sleeve but still was a great video great idea for a video thnx for hard work mate.

im suprised u went for top tiers of each archetype and not totally broken characters from each archetype, great video tho

hey jmcrofts, what is your view on Grappler from DNF Duel? big damage, armor in a lot of his charged moves, can also go through projectiles with their dash attack, heavy mix ups, and a grappler vacuum super like iron tager, oh almost forgot he has a counter too. All im saying is he might even give Damon a challenge overall.

Lovin' the beard!

I feel like setplay characters(Beerus from DBFZ, GG's Millia, and a few others) definitely deserve some kind of mention if this vid ever gets a sequel

I wore my "Folks" t-shirt to my local game store's Magic prerelease. I had a long-sleeve tee underneath because it was chilly outside.

far as other archetypes go, i don't personally count charge characters as their own, simply because every charge character fits a different archetype, like guile being a zoner and balrog being a bully, speaking of which bullies like urien would be fun to see you pick a number one for

I was gonna bring up a category that focused on characters with unique mechanics like Hakan and his oil from SF4 but then I realized he could be lumped into Transformation or Stance characters if you stretched the definition a little. So probably a better example is that character you brought up that can make their own walls something I've never seen before in a 2D traditional fighting game.

I'm thinking of Carl and Daimon too. I like how you can just combo into command grab in KoF.

my recommendation to show off a shoto is akatsuki. His placement is agreed to be top tier in akatsuki blitzkampf. Great normals, huge damage from level 3, flashy combos and a 3 frame DP in 22A. In fact I think you should make a ABKAA jmcup since flycast has rollback. It's an amazing game with cool art and cooler characters.

The thing about fighter archetypes is that there are so many that are like, sub-versions of the main ones, it'd start to get crazy. "Pixie" and "the wall" are kind of good examples that at least stand out a bit from the various sub-archetypes. Pixies being all about super great movement, with the ability to control the pace of the game, but usually weak damage with low health.(dance around, get in fast, get out fast type of deal) Walls are just your mega defense play characters with strong turtle and punish game while usually having high health. There are just so many sub-archetypes people list out there that the line starts to get fuzzy, as lots of characters can be played AS a few types, without actually being it.

Gaira is a pretty good contender for strongest grappler. In Samsho VSP he's got: A full-screen earthquake attack, a throw that he can instantly hit out of a dodge roll, a throw that can do 88% HP from spinning the joystick, a projectile reflect, and some pretty beefy normals with good range.

I will continue telling the world to check this game out, but if you wanna talk zoners, you should check out what is essentially "Zoners: The Game," Touhou Hisoutensoku. I hear it had a side tourney at Evo this year. There is one character that is basically a Shoto/Puppet/Rekka, one that is vaguely rushdown, and everyone else is a nutso zoner; in fact despite only being a 3-button fighter, two of those buttons are dedicated to ranged attacks and motion-input specials. Only thing that really sucks is its a kusoge discord fighter from like 2010, so documentation is limited to a dedicated wiki and a small handful of youtube videos.

I like these kinds of videos

I'd be interested in a video going over how these arcetypes differs between 3D and 2D/2.5D fighting games, and maybe even if 3D fighting games have some unique arcetypes of their own due to differences in movement mechanics creating conditions for different gameplay styles.

Rushdown - Zero. Top tier in every game he is in. Sougenmu loops. Pizza Cutter. Meter build. Dash teleports. Buster. Even in SvC where he has a different iteration of himself with different moves. Bruiser: Tekkaman Blade from TVC. 2nd best Pizza cutter move. Big and fast range. Big damage. Baselard is spammable and the H version is a command grab. Fast air dash. Falchion is teleport+Pizza Cutter. Zoner: UMVC3 Morrigan. Astral Vision. Soulfists. Flight. Fast normals and solid combos all around. Shoto: Just straight up Akuma. Literally made to be a shoto on roids.

I absolutely agree with the ones you named at the end. Is there a term for bouncy ass characters like Vega android 17

I love that you gave so many series a bit of love here. "Composite characters", as I've been calling them, are a favorite theme I enjoy playing. Characters who are specifically designed to be "a little bit of everyone". Street Fighter's "Seth" is probably a better known example. Soul Calibur's "Edge Master" is such a character, but doesn't work for comparison. "Necrid" better falls into this archetype, sad that he got dropped. Skullgirls "Double" is another good one. Dragon Ball has multiple characters in this archetype, but whether it is emphasized in gameplay varies. Kirby almost counts, but Copy is only prevalent in casual play.

Joker in MK11 is a pretty crazy zoner he has projectiles for basically every angle and every distance and has a high damaging close up attack that sends the opponent across screen to be set up for even more ranged attacks.

Ice Climbers from Smash (Melee/Ultimate) definitely deserve a mention in the puppet category