obsessed with the fact half of all smash characters in history fit into the loser archetype

@Logan-tz1ry

Ай бұрын

To be fair half of all characters in history are bad

@shadycat8898

Ай бұрын

Melee Pichu my Loser King.

@Briggetyt

Ай бұрын

@@shadycat8898no because pichu isn't designed to do anything, roy ir the links are the losers of melee depending on how zonery they have to be

@Soulful_Oatmilk

Ай бұрын

as a ZSS main, Loser Grappler Rushdown fits her perfectly

@JosepiThe13th

Ай бұрын

All of them do

"Luigi is a Loser Luigi" is the most Luigi thing possible.

@bucketfullabiscuits7865

Ай бұрын

"The L stands for winner"

@MJneerGaming

7 күн бұрын

@@bucketfullabiscuits7865 luigi the kind of guy to have a losing matchup to luigi

The “Loser” archetype makes far more sense than it has any reason to

@lancelee338

Ай бұрын

I'm surprised he didn't put smash 4 shulk there

@AverageDoctor345

Ай бұрын

I think Loser could also be called Half-Baked, just character ideas that could work but don't. There's an upsetting amount of those in Smash...

@Moss_Dude

Ай бұрын

Same with Jumplord

@mr.noodle6931

Ай бұрын

Lucario is the biggest loser imo. He literally wins by losing, and he also functions incorrectly

@thesporehero

Ай бұрын

@@lancelee338 Holy shit Smash 4 Shulk could definitely be at the top of his own "Potential" arcehtype. Characters with a high theoretical power level, but obnoxiously hard execution, and optimal play is still only marginally better than just picking a top tier

Great thumbnail, Coney is the definition of the Scammer archetype Kazuya being the Luigi of Luigi archetype and not Luigi both a true and HUH kind of statement.

@benji6325

Ай бұрын

Luigi walked so Kazuya could run

@xygyaz

Ай бұрын

luigi not being the best at his own archetype is the most luigi thing of all time

@TrulyAtrocious

Ай бұрын

Haven't watched the video and the first thing I thought when I saw Luigi was "luigi doesn't win this"

@hunterbeaune7626

Ай бұрын

Luigi is the One-Shot archetype from GG Strive

@Exceed_HS

Ай бұрын

Kazuya isn’t even a Luigi in his own game lmao

I think coney is a Clown Scammer hybrid character

@CONEYZZ

Ай бұрын

you're about to be a Banned Loser

@HerMajestyVelvet

Ай бұрын

@@CONEYZZ Apologies great streamer

@maxedoutsociety

Ай бұрын

@@CONEYZZno no, you're also a zoner

@jeffbaker9180

Ай бұрын

@@CONEYZZYou definitely control chat like a puppet character

I'm really glad he just pulled out the fuckass extra 4 categories. This is why I can always trust Coney to deliver.

@cisummusic3496

Ай бұрын

Nah fr I got so excited when I saw 4 more. Coney always gives the right amount

@micahfurlow2624

Ай бұрын

MORE TIERS MORE TIERS MORE TIERS MORE TIERS

@Evilmau555

Ай бұрын

​@@micahfurlow2624 SKELETONPLS MORE TIER SKELETONPLS MORE TIERS

@geminiduality2

5 күн бұрын

I fucking died laughing at the reveal

Ngl, this list is a lot better than chat seemed to understand. They were looking at isolated elements or hyper-extremes of characters and games--Coney was looking for cohesive summaries of the archetypes and characters that were best rounded to fit them.

@Khyreezy

Ай бұрын

A lot of his chat is contrarian for contrarian's sake. Outside looking in it looks weird, but Coney's list made a lot of sense.

@ashen_roses

Ай бұрын

Smash Wannabe "Pros" are some of the most obnoxious egotistical and aggressive tantrum-throwing losers I've ever seen, and it's too bad they're such a significant part of the fanbase despite providing little more than autofellatio

@dashhunterx735

Ай бұрын

Yeah, like having a grab does not make a character a grappler smh chat I don't think chat plays other fighting games lol

@piggyman8432

Ай бұрын

​@dashhunterx735 sure, but you take incineroar in other fighter and hes a grappler. FFS HE HAS GIEF BODY SPLAT AND LARIAT. stronger throws off of non command grab. arguably the best command grab in the game. he has big damaging close range normals to scare you with some decent pokes and a parry that conditions you not to mash so he can work his gameplan.... he is a grappler.

@danielf1833

Ай бұрын

​@@piggyman8432incin absolutely is a grappler, but he's not the series peak of the archetype

“Jumplord” & “Loser” are such good descriptors I am all for adapting them

What I love about videos like this is that everyone thinks Coney is just shitposting, but you can tell when someone doesn't know when they're talking about and are just saying something to rankle people up. Coney has examples and from what little competitive Smash I've watched, learned, and been involved with, his logic is consistent, it just sounds weird to someone on the outside. A lot of the examples people brought up were very basic or based on aesthetics, like how a lot of people wanted to suggest Incineroar for grappler just because he has a bunch of throws. Coney has a lot of experience and he's not afraid to say something that sounds weird if he genuinely believes it's true but will shoot down people who are just trying to be contrarian. Coney likes to rile people up and shoot them down, but he is speaking from an educated position. It's silly, but it all lines up. I think you'll learn a surprising amount from Coney if you assume a lot of what you think is just jokes is actual genuine knowledge.

@CONEYZZ

Ай бұрын

IM TRYING TO HELP

@sleepybinch

Ай бұрын

This is really sweet but I must inform you that most people on the inside of smash, including those at top level and with years of experience, would tell you Incineroar is a grappler. People didn't say Incin because he has "a bunch of throws" - he literally only has one more throw than other characters. They said Incin because that throw is what his pressure revolves around, which is the core of a grappler. He is a bit of an outlier in Smash for being a grappler of normal size, but he still fits the archetype, just like Manon in SF6 is still obviously a grappler despite being normal size. Coney is just describing the traditional grappler, the Zangief archetype.

@mz-power9587

Ай бұрын

Coney did admit he was a grappler in the end. Still not the strongest grappler. Incin best fits the grappler archetype. He has a point with dedede though

@StarkMaximum

Ай бұрын

@@mz-power9587 Yeah, maybe I misspoke a bit, it's not that Roar isn't a grappler it's that he's _certainly_ not the best one, but chat saw a bunch of grab moves and said "well clearly he's the best one because he's got all these throws". Speaking as someone who loves playing Roar, he is not anywhere near that good.

@imcoral

Ай бұрын

incin is absolutely a grappler but he's like a lower mid tier in his only game. there is no argument for the strongest of all time

Melee falcon over small mii brawler for a brawler is crazy

@Masaru_kun

Ай бұрын

the answer is actually melee Falco no cap

@five_6_seven_8

Ай бұрын

@@Masaru_kunnaw hes rushdown zoner

@kingnewgameplus6483

Ай бұрын

Remember, this is a Coney stream on the Coney channel, mii's don't have rights.

@Masaru_kun

Ай бұрын

@@five_6_seven_8 no way he doesn't rush down, he slows rush downs with his lasers lol. And he's def not a zoner, because he doesn't try to keep people zoned out, he uses his lasers to approach.

@AJ-sl7be

Ай бұрын

Miis have had zero competitive relevance stop bringing them up.

Coney being in the scammer archetype is mad funny

7:26 "And if you're not wobbling then you're doing some fuck ass pass off combo, which is more of a puppet thing." 13:15 "Brawl Ice Climbers are not a puppet character."

@splatzilla6064

Ай бұрын

Yeah he meant melee ice climbers are a puppet. Also ult ice climbers

@TrueBruceTube

12 күн бұрын

@@splatzilla6064 So does that mean Brawl IC is the loser puppet?

@buttery_gooch6

7 күн бұрын

@@TrueBruceTube yes, ult ice climbers is not a puppet and is probably luigi puppet loser

honestly i feel like coney is spotting on this one. Also as soon I saw Luigi as a category my mind immediatly went "Kazuya Mishima"

i wanna defend coney on the meta knight/bayo/steve thing, those characters are so much stronger than the rest of the cast and so flexible in what they can do that they do not fit into any archetype cleanly. they transcend catagorisation through sheer strength. Though brawl ics not being the grappler was crazy i cant defend him on that

@brendanpryde5639

Ай бұрын

The main thing I got from that is that he put “size” into account as well. By this logic IC’s are too small. But ummm imo I think it is IC’s function wise

@lt2660

Ай бұрын

@@brendanpryde5639 He's taking the spirit of the original idea, which is that grapplers have to be big so they can take up space and put pressure to get a grab. But i think smash is so different that it warrants a different definition of just grab based characters. And ice climbers is *the* grab based character. I don't think he's wrong in his placement as much as he is wrong in how he defines a grappler in smash. It makes sense but i just dont agree

@stephendonovan9084

Ай бұрын

@@lt2660I think if he wanted that then the smart thing to do would’ve been to split grappler into “traditional grappler” and “Smash grappler,” or something along those lines. I find the way he’s defining the problem really interesting but ignoring the way people use “grappler” in Smash terms was a bit weird

@terrortaste6389

Ай бұрын

@@lt2660 Coney didn't use this argument in the stream/vid, but imo Brawl DDD is more of a grappler ironically because of his projectiles and disjoints. They let him control lots of space and steadily move in on his opponents. That also moves Brawl DDD more to the zoner category but it is what it is.

@oddyoda6443

Ай бұрын

My take is that MK and Bayo are Winners. They are losers in the sense that the role they may have been made to fill may not necessarily be accurate, but it's because they are good at fucking everything. Bayo and MK are Winners

kazuya being put as best luigi in smash is the funniest shit i have seen today

I don’t know what the fuck any of this means

“Kazuya is the best Luigi ever” This is the insight im subscribed for

If we're putting those last archetypes into traditional fighting games, Jumplord: Hazama Loser: SF4 Dee Jay Pacifist: Taokaka The Fantastic Spinning Surprise Killing Robot: Nagoriyuki

@MimiksYou

Ай бұрын

loser is sf6 jamie kinda sf4 dee jay is ass but he’s just an all rounder jamie is trash without drinks and has to spend time getting drinks instead of being good

@Exceed_HS

Ай бұрын

Sol Badguy is definitely a Luigi

@FalseHerald

Ай бұрын

GGAC+R Bridget is the most pacifist it's ever been

@CNightmare072

Ай бұрын

THE NAGO EXAMPLE IS PHENOMINAL

@Banana_D

Ай бұрын

puppet loser is strive zato

When you hit us with that hidden 3rd row, then everything made sense. Loser as an archetype is mind blowing.

This stream was horrible, I loved it

It's funny how Steve fits into at least half of these archetypes. Including Loser arguably, he does not function how he's supposed to. With Bayo or MK, they feel like they were designed to be a certain way, but ended up being really overtuned. Steve feels like he was designed to be a certain way, but ended up being so overtuned in other areas that it overrided his original design

@xolotltolox7626

19 күн бұрын

Steve is probably the only top of the game character that's a loser

Haven’t watched the vid, but I assume the Luigi archetype is touch of death

Classic coney forgetting about the strongest heavy to ever exist; 3DS Bowser

I think the best characters of each game perfectly exemplify smash's lack of clearly defined character archetypes. The reason the best characters are so good is because they can kind of just do whatever they want. Brawl meta knight is fast, has a shitload of jumps, and can glide. And that makes him really strong offensively, but that also makes him really strong defensively, and he can just choose to disengage if he wants. Smash 4 bayo could try to fish for a zero-to-death, or she could just wait for you to come to her and just kill you off a witch time combo. And steve can just do whatever the fuck he wants at all times. Smash is weird because the best characters aren't just the best characters of a given archetype. They're the best because they don't fall into an archetype

@grunkleg.3110

Ай бұрын

And any characters that lean hard into archetypes struggle for it. Duck Hunt is like the purest example of a zoner in the series, and they're so much worse than the Pac-Mans and Min-Mins of the world

@colecoles8964

Ай бұрын

@@grunkleg.3110yeah kinda like how snake is a zoner but at the same time has a lot of tools (utilt ftilt) that can kill early when fighting up close.

Love that the Fantastic Spinning Surprise Killing Robot also includes Incineroar. That's just funny to me.

for the "brawler" archtype I actually think melee Falco is the best example. He tries to slow down rushdowns like Fox and Falcon, so he can win scrambles close-up. He relies on mix-ups and can't really kill in one combo like a Luigi. His laser is a zoning tool, but he has to be close to actually get damage and kills.

Since Coney doesn't fuck with 64 like that the archetypes go something like this if I'm trying to stick to the Coney categories Rushdown: Pikachu Zoner: Fox (laser goes stupid in 64) Link Jumplord: Kirby (also a swordfighter) Jigglypuff DJ Armour: Yoshi Luigi: Captain Falcon (f throw up air up air up air up b) DK Loser: Samus (charge shot the character, only character in the game with a bad combo game) Brawler(read as gets walled out by half the cast): Mario Ness Luigi

I like how this turned into Infinite Craft at the end XD, just creating characters from elements

@callmefleet

Ай бұрын

he turned on little alchemy mode

i think mario baseball is a swordfighter

I've followed Smash for years and I still don't know what the fuck to make of that tier list with like 15 characters in the Mario section. Little Mac being in the Jigglypuff section was the final nail in the coffin for my confusion. (Even if you’re saying Little Mac only stays in one place like Puff, then why the hell is Pichu there) What the FUCK is going on in that list!? Anyway good video Coney. Glad to see one of my favorite content creators make another list that pisses off their community :)

@4546Bean

Ай бұрын

Glass cannons

@GottemGGs

Ай бұрын

Either kill in one interaction or die

@epicking8341

Ай бұрын

I think it's just glass cannon characters that shut out damage but then they die out of nowhere

@gengarisnotinsmash...

Ай бұрын

The mario tier is mostly all around brawlers with great physics and strong combos. Jigglypuff tier is reserved for incredibly volatile characters who still use all/most of their kit (unlike the Luigi, who really only has the one thing they fish for) (or just say glass cannons, that works too).

@Aidswayz

Ай бұрын

@@4546BeanThere are like 20 other missing characters

Funny how ultimate rob could be all of these categories

Elizabeth from P4A is a Luigi

@treedude4246

Ай бұрын

True

@treedude4246

Ай бұрын

Sol badguy in strive is a luigi

@Ed-1749

Ай бұрын

​@@treedude4246I dont think strive has ever had OHKOs, and you cant be luigi without them.

@gengarisnotinsmash...

Ай бұрын

@@Ed-1749 Goldlewis would like to know your location

@HerMajestyVelvet

Ай бұрын

Hell yeah, I love Elizabeth

This has unironically changed my perception of smash archetypes and I hope people define characters as these 12 categories or any combination of them going forward

So glad the Loser category exists. We finally have a place to put all three versions of Lucas.

Luigi not being the best Luigi is very on theme

1:15 I made it onto a Coney video. I have peaked

Someone in chat was cooking by saying 3rd Strike Makoto is a Luigi.

So makoto from street fighter 3 third strike is a Luigi by your definition of killing you on 1 interaction with a grab

9:10 "To get through tight spaces, press the circle button to slide."

This is unironically the most helpful video ever at helping me understand smash character archetypes. Great job!

The like and subscribe buttons have never once lit up at the end of a video lmao

One of the best coney vids in years. Not only did I laugh out loud many times, but there’s genuine knowledge here

"The best Luigi there has ever been in any Smash game is Kazuya. It's actually Kazuya."

I’ve never seen a more accurate thumbnail in my life

The only take away I have from this stream is Smash players have no clue what any of these terms mean

@scooter9537

Ай бұрын

being able to move around platform kinda just breaks down fgc archetypes

This was entertaining. It’s so interesting how different platform fighters are from traditional fighting games. I loved how the chat went ballistic any time Coney opened his mouth.

"he who hold it, stolds it"

"Melee Marth can't kill for shit" HUH

@monkeyduhluffy

Ай бұрын

i love Coney’s stuff but there is a tremendous lack of Melee knowledge here lol

@AJ-sl7be

Ай бұрын

He's kinda right though, unless your Zain who knows how to hit pivot Fsmash confirms, you might struggle to kill.

@twelvevoltage

Ай бұрын

marthritis is a real thing its hard for marth to close stocks above certain percents edit: hes the best swordie still though unless you count mk

I want to see this done like Rockman's list where every character has to be sorted into one archetype.

13:06 Thanks editor, very cool footage :)

As an ex pro SF4 and Melee player here is mine for melee: Rushdown: Fox, Falcon, Pikachu, Pichu and Luigi Brawler: Doc, Mario, Kirby, G&W, Falco, Ganondorf and Bowser Zoner: Samus, Link, Y. Link, Puff, Peach, Zelda Grappler: Icies, DK, Sheik Swordy: Marth, Roy DJC: Yoshi, M2, Ness

Normally don't watch coney opinion pieces but his smash opinions are always fun to watch

The funniest part about Sonic being the best Pacifist is that it’s not necessarily antithetical to how he behaves in his home series. There’s some games and extra material where he’s just- Not really there to beat anyone up at all.

Nothing gives me more joy than looking at chat and seeing “more tiers”

BRO WHEN IT GOT TO BRAWLER I LITERALLY SAID OUT LOUD MELEE FALCON AND I WAS RIGHT

I think there's something so funny about defining different game iterations by "Melee X" or "Brawl X", because it leads us having long legitimate thoughts on the nature of characters being named as "Ultimate Wario" or "Brawl Pit". Like those are just silly names don't you think

Great argument about both the top tiers and low tiers not being automatics.

I feel like if we aren’t including olimar or iceies, then Rosalina is just the only puppet character, no? Like what’s the point of having puppet as a category when only Rosalina fits it?

Best ‘Brawler’: If I had to give my own definition, the difference between a Brawler and a Rushdown is a Brawler WANTS to fight with you. A Rushdown is called that because they’re trying to overwhelm you before you can fight back. A Brawler meanwhile an actively benefits from putting you in a situation where you have to scrap with them. That means Brawlers benefit more so from their strong punish game rather than pressure. For that reason, I would probably have to go with one of two options. Smash 4 Mario, or Melee Yoshi. Smash 4 Mario actively benefited whenever someone fought him, as Rage didn’t completely invalidate his combo paths and increased his killing potential. I know that seems like I’m picking the most obvious answer, but in reality Smash 4 Mario was only good because he could match a lot of characters blow for blow and be consistently dangerous despite being at high percents. Rush Down characters are notorious for folding like paper if they can’t kill you right away. Then there’s Melee Yoshi, who with parrying I believe fits this mold possibly the best. His entire game plan is to run around and let you hit him, so that way he can hit you back and start a combo that could potentially kill you. Percent rarely matters for Melee Yoshi, so long as he can parry, he’s always dangerious. And if you are scrapping with him, you’re most likely to die before he does cause he can outlast most characters in Melee in many areas except edge guarding.

The bonus categories cracked me up LMAO

as a fantastic spinning surprise killing robot main, he is every archetype, literally all of them

After seeing the smash marathon Coney did, I'm sure this will be well informed and have no biases Edit: Icies ≠ Cause it's a glitch and abuse of grab infinite Inciniroar ≠ Cause he imposes a threat in an area of the screen that limits your choices (actual command grab btw) DDD = Cause it's a glitch that abuses infinite grabs and imposes a threat to area of the screen(?)

This list is like so incredibly accurate I was pleasantly surprised :) good job Coney! Only thing I’d change is maybe s4 sheik instead of melee falcon?

Kazuya being the best Luigi archetype is the type of things only Coney would come up with and still make perfect sense.

I suppose one way to argue a characters status in an archetype is.....what happens if you take it away? If you take away chain grabs from Dedede he's dogshit, as he has been in 4 and Ult without any discernable identity outside of ledge trapping IF he hits you. At least Incineroar has Armoured moves and Revenge to allow him to get in and start smacking you.

These are archetypes I've just never thought about probably cuz I don't play very many other fighting games besides Smash Bros. I mean I have played some soul caliber games and Tekken games and got familiar with a few of them. I barely played any Street fighter games despite the fact that I grew up in the '90s and I barely played any mortal Kombat games, but yeah I mostly just play Smash Bros and just love playing that so I wasn't too familiar with these archetypes but this was still a very interesting video to see all the way through

13:06 shoutouts to the editor for pranking coney here. This got me good

As a Luigi player, Luigi is an archetype.

The 4 extra categories had me dying 😂

Smash Sundays into Marketing Mondays would go hard.

I got an ad at 19:24 and thought Coney had the strongest bit of all time by just ending the video after revealing the character was Rob

As much as I want to defend Brawl ICs being the best grappler, I'd argue that was more of a mistake in design than anything. As a person that plays grapplers in fighting games, no (normal) character makes you feel more tense about risking being grabbed than Brawl Dedede. He's also got some strong beefy buttons that feel like a grappler (utilt, bair, dtilt, fair).

I think ultimate samus is at least a contender for the zoner category. Simply because her charge shot is so overtuned that it literally plays neutral for her, coupled with her obscene grab range and a massive fair to catch anyone jumping over the charge shots.

This is my favorite video, I will watch it forever

If only there was a common name for characters that kill you in one touch. Yknow, like, Touch of Death.

@v0idvice640

2 күн бұрын

okay but luigi’s a way funnier name for the archetype

3:56 heyyyyy, counterpoint, I’m watching this on my break at my job

I've just realized this... Makoto from Third Strike is Luigi

"grappler" me:i swear to every fucking god if coney doesn't say incineroar" coney:"i see a bunch of people saying incineroar".....me:-ignites a match and starts running the gas-

My favorite part is when he voice cracks at the end. 😂

Not doing melee marth for swordie kinda crazy tbh

you missed "could be a god but doesn't try archetype" Ganondorf

Coney stole my MONEY!!!!

Much more fun idea than I expected

Seph being swordie zoner loser is so incredibly accurate

Nana, or Popo depending on costume, is just following the main Ice Climber and basically copy the moves. Lot like "controlling 2 characters at the same time" scenarios. Olimar's Pikmins is more of ammunition than anything in some ways. So, Rosalina & Luma being a puppet type just makes the most sense.

I think it should have been: Rushdown: Melee Fox Zoner: Ult Snake Grappler: Brawl Icies Brawler: 64 Falcon Heavy: Ult Bowser Swordy: Smash4 Cloud Puppet: Smash4 Rosa Best Shoto: Terry

It's 20XX. Game and Watch is the best Mario, Sonic is the best Fox, Kazuya is the best Luigi, Corrin is the best Marth, and Steve Minecraft is the best Pac-Man. What a perilous world

I'm so glad I predicted that melee falcon call I felt so smart

Babe wake up, new coney video just dropped

“Fantastic spinning surprise killing robot” I wonder who that could be

12:37 You could be right because Rosalina and luma was amazing in Smash 4 but ice climbers in brawl was the second best fighter in the game only losing out to Meta Knight

"There is no other game that has a Jumplord!" There's a certain Stand-having bird that may disagree with you there...

I love duck hunt, such a fun character to play casually. I think if I had to choose one for looser it has to be banjo, just because he feels SO weak!

I remember someone calling the smash equivalent to the shoto archetype the plumber archetype and that has not left my vocabulary ever since

The pure outrage of chat when Coney pulls up Brawl DDD

If I might make a suggestion to a name change, I think instead of having heavy or brawler it makes more sense to have one of the categories 'spacer/space taker'. I believe this fits everyone you would put in the heavy category, essentially a character that aims to stand in the middle of the stage and never let you in. In my mind it makes more sense but I understand that we all are going to measure characters differently

I forgot Ridley existed until the very end

All I learned is that a Brawler is a Luigi you don't hate to loose against.

This video is so funny because its genuinely accurate in ways it doesn't deserve to be (and a friendly reminder as to why its so hard for me to find characters i like in platform fighters other than marth (especially 4/ult), smash 4/ult falco, and multiversus harley. (note: if not for l-cancelling, melee would be my favorite smash game mechanically, which makes this whole situation so much worse))

I thought this video kinda sucked until the twist at the end. W Also, Coney is mega biased. He just wanted to include his brawl main