Why doesn't ancient kurgan culture in America make it a Solutream fact?? I mean, that is what these mounds are- kurgans.. It's not just the kurgans, it's their genetics, which have never been found on the "northern route". They were a copper wares kurgan culture, and we think we don't know who they were?! Nonsense! Obfuscating nonsense. Clearly, the mere idea is outside the scope of The Overton Window. "The eyes of that species of extinct giants whose bones fill the Mounds of America, have gazed on Niagara as ours do now." - Lincoln.

@NathanaelFosaaen

4 ай бұрын

First of all, Solutreans didn't build kurgans. You're mixing unrelated cultures and time periods. Second, as we explained, there has never been legitimate European DNA found in precolonial America. Third, burial mounds started in the Americas LONG after the Kurgan culture. They're not related.

@dieselphiend

4 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen That's only because your kind don't consider haplogroup X, "European DNA", but it most certainly is. So what is the time window for so-called Solutreans?

@dieselphiend

4 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Everything under the sun is "related".

@NathanaelFosaaen

4 ай бұрын

@dieselphiend X2b,c,and d are European. X2a is not. The Solutrean culture ended some 17,000 years ago, and the "Kurgan Culture" didn't begin until a full 10,000 years later. They have nothing to do with eachother.

@dieselphiend

4 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Perhaps you're comfortable with the idea that kurgan culture in North America emerged from nothingness. I'm not.

Loved being a part of this ! Thank you!

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for all your contributions!

@ArtisticlyAlexis

6 ай бұрын

This was the best collab ever!

@arasethw

2 ай бұрын

No the caveat is - I have told you we have the burials everyone seeks at a twice documented Mound 100+ yr. C.O. Here is evidence for our ancient city site ! Early Human Settlement of Northeastern North America - Parsons Island Charcoal collected above this in-situ biface produced an age estimate of 17,133 ± 88 14 C yr BP or 20,525 ± 341 cal yr BP. .Artifacts discovered by a Smithsonian affiliated archaeologist along the Island’s eroding southwestern shoreline indicate that Parsons’ original inhabitants were pre-native people whose origins span the Atlantic Ocean to the Solutré territory of east-central France some 20,000 years ago - suggesting a new timeline and arrival route for human settlement on the North American continent. ! Magdalenian sites stretched from Portugal in the west to Poland in the east, and as far north as France, the Channel Islands, England, and Wales.

@Michigander269

12 күн бұрын

The only time I attend AA and stay awake for the duration of the discussion is when this guy is giving the speech! What? Oh, Hi my name is Jake and I am an alc... ancient-histolic 😅 Great work fellas 👏

As an archaeologist myself, and as someone who has handled a lot of fluted points, and been immersed in the literature for several decades, it is important to recognize that while "pre-Clovis" components were "obvious" to some of us, others flatly rejected the notion, and when Stanford and Bradley published their book, there were many North American archaeologists who still insisted Clovis was the earliest occupation, reflecting the actual colonization of the Americas. This was despite the inherent logical problems and evidential issues the Clovis First hypothesis, which had been regarded by many as a proven fact. Recently (2022) work has been published by the National Academy of Science that demonstrated that the Ice Free Corridor was not open soon enough or long enough for people from the arctic to populate the lower latitudes. Most American archaeologists were still supposing that while pre-Clovis had to be a thing, that the time depth of their entry could not be too much earlier than the appearance of Clovis. Bradley and Stanford were adhering to that. If you add an additional 5,000 years to earliest Clovis, then you are still looking at an entry not much earlier than Meadowcroft. ca. 18 kya. There are still problems, because scattered older dates _must_ mean the continent was largely explored by that time. If you add dates from South America even that 18 kya estimate begins to look too recent. The White Sands footprints, and osteoderm beads in Brazil push the problem back immensely farther. Currently there are no working hypotheses that handles the available evidence efficiently. The one fact we can draw is that Clovis hunters did not emerge from the Ice Free Corridor, and eat every mammoth on the continent, along with every horse, camel, giant ground sloth and short-faced bear. As concerns the size of Clovis populations, the distribution of a technology _may_ correlate with a people, but it may also reflect the spread of an idea through many peoples. The spread of the use of the bow and arrow in North and South America is an example. Clovis technology, the manufacturing and weapon construction ideas may well have spread widely through word of mouth or example rather than colonization. In fact, entire technological, material culture and ritual complexes can spread through adjacent populations, independent of colonization. The late prehistoric archaeology of California, or the Northwest Coast both exhibit this. In California much of the northern state reflects a broadly uniform material and ritual culture which multiple linguistic populations p[articipated in prior to historic contact. The Northwest Coast shows a similar spread of material culture reachin from southern Alaska, south along the Pacific Coast to Northwestern California, with dentalium shell used as a medium of exchange throughout that range. So, a technological distribution is not at all necessary evidence of a single population. The real take away, IMHO, that despite what looks like an immense amount of data, 1) it is not that much data when you are trying tunderstand around 20,000 years or more of prehistory, and 2) we don't know much at all when you accept the reality of the immense canyons of missing information. Unlike the science of archaeology, prehistory is mainly story telling, based on tiny glimpses of what might have happened once upon a time.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Thank you for your service.

@arasethw

2 ай бұрын

Early Human Settlement of Northeastern North America - Parsons Island Charcoal collected above this in-situ biface produced an age estimate of 17,133 ± 88 14 C yr BP or 20,525 ± 341 cal yr BP. Jonathan C. Lothrop,Darrin L. Lowery,Arthur E. Spiess &Christopher J. Ellis

@forestdweller5581

Күн бұрын

'Currently there are no working hypotheses that handles the available evidence efficiently'. Except the one discussed above....White Sands even fits nicely into that period. The thing about most people digging into the Solutrean hypothesis is that they only pay attention to the American finds without knowing much about the Solutrean period at all. They don't even know the correct period which is from 28 to 16 thousand cal BP. Proffessor Bradley was ridiculed for saying the Solutrean is that old but he is absolutely correct. Just ask the Spanish archeologists. So that means 12 thousand years of Solutrean 'time' for them to cross an ocean. They experienced disastrous events in that period giving them every reason to migrate elsewhere. Such as volcanic winters dropping temperature during the already coldest of times. And we can all put to rest the idea that there was not enough sea ice for an ocean crossing. At certain times during that 12 thousand year period there would have been enough ice to walk back and forth between continents 10 times over. After the last super volcano eruption people in Europe also fled and reached Sardinia by boat...as evidenced in Corbeddu Cave. The charcoal dated there is around 25,600 cal BP. Those people were either Solutrean or Epi Gravettian. The Solutrean hypothesis fits right in with that. It is a perfectly fine working hypothesis on people arriving in America. If people would simply stop misrepresenting this hypothesis...desperate to debunk it...they could learn a thing or two from it. Nathaniel here did a better job than most but he is still far off....and repeating false claims about the hypothesis and the Solutrean period in Europe.

@arasethw

Күн бұрын

@@forestdweller5581 We have the evidence Solutrean or Epi Gravettian sandstone slab City in Northeastern Ohio under 10 feet topsoil, Government knowingly Permitted dump ! LOL

Looking forward to this! Two of my favourite channels on a crazy hypothesis 🔥

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

It's significantly less stupid than most channels are willing to concede.

@ronpflugrath2712

6 ай бұрын

Very nice Nat and thankyou, nick zentner is on with in half hour he is south of me rocking washington state. Imagine a basalt cedar splitter?

@Mrfixit434

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaenarchaeology has found cache sites of roughed-in but unfinished points often coated in red ochre. Has anyone considered that these strategically placed caches were drop off points in a long distance trade practice? One tribe might leave a set of goods, which another tribe might later pick up the goods, and deposit their own reciprocating trade goods?

@DanDavisHistory

6 ай бұрын

​@NathanaelFosaaen I never thought it was stupid

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

@@DanDavisHistory I definitely did. You're a better person than I am.

This video made me hungrier than I would have anticipated 😂

I keep reading the title as The Soultrain Hypothesis.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

We should all be so fortunate!

@AlbertaGeek

6 ай бұрын

So I'm not the only one. I also sing it to myself to the tune of the O'Jays' _Love Train._

@hedgehog3180

6 ай бұрын

The Soultrain Hypothesis proposes that the first migrants making their way into the Americas sung an ancient version of Soultrain as they traveled. No evidence of this exists or could really exists but archeologists unanimously agree that it would be really cool if it were true. Source: Me just now making it up for the joke.

@MarcosElMalo2

5 ай бұрын

Oh, no. The Lost Ancient Funky Technology theorists have arrived.

@allanforce5333

2 ай бұрын

Hilarious gonna use it ...

Two of my favorite archaeology channels teaming up! Great video!

When you talked about the clovis cache and the variety of finished pieces and unfinished ones all the way to raw chirt, it made me wonder if these were a way of teaching other people how to do it. A early power point kinda of deal.

Being a scientist by training and profession, and having long been interested ancient American culture (and, incidentally, living about 1.6 km from the Anzick site) what I find particularly interest is that the Solutrean hpothesis was actually presented as a testable hypothesis. That meant it could be tested, with some rigor, and either either falsified or accepted (but never actually proven, of course). And, then, how the subsequent studies actually did support an alternative hypothesis. Your treatment and presentation was informative, balanced, and well-done. Actually, the whole resultant body of work generated by the Spolutrean hypothesis is one the best really clear-cut discrete examples of archaeology being truly a science, I have seen. This joint presentation was really good, playing off both narrator's strong points. Nicely done, gentlemen!!! Thanks!

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

That's mostly because people's eyes glaze over when we get into the hard science part of archaeology, so we usually leave that stuff out of our public education material. Even this is SUPER stripped down.

@mpetersen6

5 ай бұрын

​@@NathanaelFosaaen I personally think the Solutrean Hypothesis is unlikely. Even if it is an intriguing possibility. And a remote possibility at that. Unfortunately some unsavory individuals latched on to it. To be followed by the knee jerk political correctness response about racism. And predictably Native Groups responded with talk that it was all about justifying dispossing them. In response to the whole question l have several questions 1) How many lithic cultures worldwide post or pre Solutrean developed very similiar stone working techniques. 2) What are the time frames similiar stone working techniques relative to Solutrean. 3) What type of blue water boat technology did exist or could have existed during the Wisconsin/Wurm Glaciation. I know that the terms Wisconsin and Wurm are obsolete but the still act as a convenient place holder in terms of era. Plus a lot of people might not be familiar with terms such as MIS 2 or MIS 4) Why is the highest concentration of Clovis artifacts in Eastern North America. More specifically in the Delmarva Peninsula area. Is this due to a higher percentage of excavation for building purposes. Due to Late Wisconsin environmental conditions. What could prove a Solutrean presence of any sort in North America. 1) Genetic evidence. First is there any genetic information as to the origins of the Solutreans. As l recall Stanford thought their source vm population was Northwest Africa. Even if they were not derived from a recent migration out of North Aftica they would have been from the Hunter Gatherer population that occupied Europe at the time. 2) Lithic evidence. This would require finding stone tools of the proper type. In undisturbed datable soils. And most importantly of stone that could be traced to quarries in the region occupied by the Solutrean Culture. #1 would be hard given the general lack of skeletons connected to early occupation. #2 is possible but not probable. Having listened to a number of talks by Stanford ty here are a number of points he brought up. One is a stone tool which I believe is from Meadowcroft. The stone has been traced to a quarry on the coast of Labrador. How does anything that sources from Labrador wind up in Pennsylvania during a Glacial Advance. Either we are completely wrong about ice coverage or it implies boats. The second is a stone tool found as a surface find in the Jamestown area. A stone knife traced to a known Solutrean quarry. First what are the odds that any English settlers from Roanoke onwards were using stone knives. And they just happened to be using stone sourced in Southwest France. If the knife is Native made it has to date from the pre contact period. And if it how did they get the stone. Possible ballast stone from a European wreck? Or is there a source of stone in the region that is chemically indistinguishable from the one in France.

Awesome collaboration! Thank you both.

Excellent work you two! I appreciate the framing that this hypothesis isn't as totally wild or racist as it seems on its face, but also the discussion about why it doesn't make sense after it drove so much good research.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

That's how actual archaeologists tended to talk about it.

@hedgehog3180

6 ай бұрын

It is becoming part of the long and proud history of archeological/paleontological hypothesises (what's the plural form of hypothesis?) that started out as serious academic theories but were then abandoned only to get picked up again by pseudoscientists.

Great collaboration of the two of you! Thanks!

Great presentations. You two really worked well together!!! Here is another hypothesis - Maybe the Solutrean did make it to North America 5000 years earlier but then abandoned their sites or migrated south during a cold period. It was only later that an early indigenous archeologist found a Solutrean cache of projectile points and said "Wow these are really neat and so much better than what we have. Lets learn how to make them".

Two of my favorite channels teaming up!! Fascinating subject, glad you two cleared some of that up.

Thank you Nathanael...looking forward to seeing your next installment...especially the cache contents. Cheers 🥂

Great content y'all. Appreciate the commitment to proper analysis. Nice collaboration from two of my fav creators.

Great Collaboration!! Would love to see more of these. Very interesting!!!

Oh wow! I love Ancient Americas stuff. Great to see you guys working together

Great to see you two working together!

I appreciate that you have approached this with respect for all involved. It pained me to see the ad home I'm attacks that Stanford was subject to. Thank you.

I’m not giving up on Solutrean or pre Clovis artifacts found at Cactus Hill…right down the road from where I live. Amazing what you can find just by digging another 6-10 inches. Mind blowing. I imagine much more will be discovered in the next 10-20 years about how these people came here.

Thank you both for sharing the results of your research.

Fascinating, I just met Bruce Bradley in Wyoming. He is a very personable fellow and doing field archaeology. The thing about making stone tools, “flint napping” or whatever the term is, is that it has this shaman quality about it that when you watch it in front of you, you almost can’t help but feel. The bizarre analogy that struck me was surveying technology, one group of people have been working on optics and tooling while another group of people have been working on electronics, now surveying instruments come in two distinct types. Hard sharp tools derive from nappers working in stone or from people obsessed with making hotter and hotter fires to basically melt rocks and derive metals. Kiln makers and nappers. I don’t have a point in writing this other than to say, I just saw Bruce Bradley and the field archaeologists he was working with and I couldn’t help but feel a certain romantic mysticism about what was going on in what might poetically be called the quest for reality. Working stone into tools while sifting strata in search of where we (humanity) came from is pretty compelling for viewing the entire scene in mythological terms, everyone on the site had a mythological archetype, it was emotionally impactful just hanging out with them in the field. We need a much stronger presence, a new wave, of Native Americans doing archaeology in the Americas, this is clear, there are not enough American Indian heritage archaeologists, despite the fact that the reservation system has had the physical characteristic of isolating American Indians into populations that could be recognized as ethnically identifiable archaeologists. This is not a simple issue of controversy over human remains, this lack of Native Americans in archaeology points to some much more basic social and economic inequalities yet to be addressed.

Excellent collaboration an video. Very nice assimilation and presentation of facts n findings..

Fantastic video, gentlemen. I love the collaborative effort. Excellent work👍

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Much appreciated!

The BBQ plot twist has convinced me.

This is a brilliant break down of the facts and I appreciate the non emotional form of presenting them. Plus your partnership worked wonderfully, thanks for your time and effort. 💯

Thank you gentlemen for covering this. I have been looking for more than conspiracy information about this topic for a while & this is exactly what I wanted lol.

This was awesome. Excellent collaboration

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

what an excellent combination of talents in archeological science communication. I hope you two do more collaborations!

The collab I’ve been waiting for

I clicked so fast for this collab, and the topic is just a bonus.

Very good. Many insightfully presented.

love the collab, 2 great channels!

Great video! I haven't heard this hypothesis before and very interesting. I like that you look at all the evidence and it's very respectful. Also, kudos on the team up. AA is another favorite of mine. Keep up the good work Nathanael!

@am2dan

6 ай бұрын

Coincidentally, I had heard about it for the first time just earlier today prior to seeing this video pop up.

I remember discovering this hypothesis around 2015 and was forever intrigued by it. Great video!!

Thank you for your work, actually pretty good.and and thorough.

Thanks for what has to be the most thorough address of the Solutrean Hypothesis on KZread since Stanford; that I can find. Though I’m a Solutrean “Fan Boy”, I appreciate the thoroughness, as opposed to outright dismissiveness, which only fans my paranoia more than answering any real questions.

@MarcosElMalo2

5 ай бұрын

I can’t fault you for “keeping hope alive”, but it’s a closed case unless there are findings that warrant reopening the case and reconsidering the hypothesis.

Excellent and sympathetic review of a popular, interesting, unsuccessful hypothesis. Thank you.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

So much expanding mind. Collaborations are CRAZY!

I thought this was a very good episode, informative. I remember reading the text book that was attributive to the theory, and noticed the similarities as well back in the early eighties. Much appreciation for the breakdown.

Dude I need that paper on the phylogenetic (phylomemetic?) relationship of Clovis and Solutrean lithic material! I’m an evolutionary biologist and just seen the figures blew my mind! I need the doi, please, I wanna impress my doctoral adviser 😅. Kudos on the good work! Excelent video 🎉🎉

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

It's in the book Across Atlantic Ice. You can find it on Libgen

@lektraburux

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen thank you so very much!

@forestdweller5581

5 ай бұрын

You can also find an excellent paper on researchgate testing the hypothesis about blade/core technology and the similarities between Clovis/pre Clovis/Solutrean. It' s open access.

Epic colab you guys! That was awesome

What a great adressing of the topic. I have seen so many unknowledgable people on the internet and in the other medias adress the Hypothesis out of hand as Eurosupremacist and leave it at that. As you acknowledge, many non-academic proponents do indeed take that view. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't engage with the idea honestly. Which you both do. Best short-form analysis of the hypothesis I've seen. I totally agree with the conclusion.

Loved this, you two are both fantastic. I've always been intrigued by the Solutrean Hypothesis and for a while found merit in it but more recent scholarship has given me reason to doubt its usefulness with things like you've presented here. One thing I do enjoy about it still is that if anything it has produced more research and scholarship on both sides leading to more discoveries and understanding, and after all isn't that what a good hypothesis is supposed to do?

Thank you both for exploring this topic. I appreciate that you are not destroying anyone’s hopes about a possible Solutrean influence, only that it is becoming increasingly unlikely, and the more dna evidence we have, the less likely it seems to be. I applaud your objective critical approach, it is refreshing to see, cheers!

Really enjoyed this! Something I had heard about and was wondering about.

I love this channel

I read a book by this title many years ago, so when I happened across your video, I clicked, I 👍🏻 I subscribed

Great video 👌 Love the collab.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Great job by both of you

Great job, guys!

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

This is like a good Avengers movie. A crossover inside the KZread archeology universe.

Great video. Thanks.

Hello there. This is fascinating. I’m definitely here for the wisdom that’s presented. I’m into kayaking and rock hounding around the creek beds around where I live. I just wish I didn’t wait until my mid-40’s to begin learning. New sub here👍🏻

I'm glad you did this because it helped me understand it a little better. I've been around long enough to have been aware of the Solutrean hypothesis when it was still pretty new. I thought I had seen the late Dennis Stanford talk about it on video and say that it was no longer as hopeful as it had been because of new DNA evidence. It made me sad for him and his colleague. One of the reasons the Solutrean Hypothesis always interested me is because when I was a kid there was a diehard insistence that paleolithic people didn't know about or use boats. Since all young boys and a few of the girls I knew spent time trying to make things float during warm weather, I thought they were wrong. The last fifty years or so has made a dent in the boat viewpoint. And there are those interesting sites such as Monte Verde.

@ATUQ777

6 ай бұрын

Do you have that video of Dennis Stanford?

@kitefan1

6 ай бұрын

@@ATUQ777 I'll think about it. I think it was before I got rid of the cable. A year or a few before he died.

@ATUQ777

6 ай бұрын

@@kitefan1Thank you

@mpetersen6

5 ай бұрын

​@@ATUQ777 There are videos of Stanford out there on the web. The question is if the site owners kept the material available. I would think the idea of a migration from Southwestern Eurasia around the Iberian Peninsula is highly unlikely. The possibility of a small number people from the region winding up in North America after a summer of hunting seals along the fringe of the ice is a possibility. Even if a remote one. One thing l think that could prove any Solutrean presence in North America is an artifact found in a datable soil layer. An artifact tracable to a known quarry used by the Solutreans.

@Aspen7780

20 күн бұрын

That’s the danger of individual archaeologists getting so stuck on their theory. People can become personally invested in their theory. The real talent is to accept when evidence doesn’t support your theory and be willing to look elsewhere. Even negative evidence is still helpful as it crosses off the list one possibility and helps to narrow down the truth.

thank you for the video

Hyped for this

One thing I think gets overlooked by people opposed to the Solutrean Hypothesis is the fact that currently there are tons of people who can make flint tools in styles other than those of the culture into which they were born. For example, EVERYONE currently making stone tools is doing so in a style other than the non-stone age technology in which they were raised. As such, it would be possible for a single individual with a Solutrean point to make it to the East coast and either demonstrate the technology or trade the point to someone with enough know how to reverse engineer it. At that point (pun) the Solutrean tech can travel across the whole of North America without any additional individuals coming over. Clovis as a "culture" is really just a technology. It could be a single culture spanning the entirety of North America or it could be thousands of individual cultures who've all gained access to the same material technology and are producing their version of the latest iPhone -- a much better tool than what they had been using and it gets adopted by everyone who comes across it.

@hedgehog3180

6 ай бұрын

There's just the slight issue that Clovis only appears about 6000 years after the Solutrean material culture disappears, so unless that single man survived for 6000 years and also somehow cross the North Atlantic alone with stone age technology this isn't really possible. Also like your second paragraph is just a description of what a material culture is. There's a reason why archeologists use the term material culture, or technological complex, and not just culture, because the two aren't the same thing.

@threeriversforge1997

5 ай бұрын

@@hedgehog3180 If you think about how slowly ideas and people would be moving around back in those days, 6000 years really isn't that long a time gap. Plus, the timeline is only based on the finds we have and the gap could actually be a lot shorter.... but we don't have the evidence to show it. Just like we've only recently discovered those very old footprints in the desert southwest, and are revising the timeline of human habitation, we could turn up something new tomorrow that'll completely rewrite our understanding of the Solutreans and a thousand other things.

@mpetersen6

5 ай бұрын

​@@threeriversforge1997 And evidence could currently by under a couple hundred feet of salt water.

@threeriversforge1997

5 ай бұрын

@@mpetersen6 Yep. The scientific community makes a lot of assumptions. They might be very educated assumptions based on the evidence we have, but it's very very slim evidence.

@mpetersen6

5 ай бұрын

There is another point (1) about today's flint knappers. They are copying historical items that they have examples that they have seen. Techniques they have read about or seen demonstrated. They are not copying styles or techniques that they have not seen or have no knowledge of. 1) No pun intended

This is fascinating. You kept it interesting with images. I do a lot of reading on the Archaic in North America and have just started making content because of this encounter lithic related materials. I aspire to make content like you. P.s working on a BA

What a GREAT collaboration! Very happy to see this. I'm really grateful to Ancient Americas for the policy of not showing remains of Native folks out of respect. I'm a non-Native person who cares about that issue very deeply, and am grateful.

An excellent examination and explanation as always but the mention of BBQ & a rib dinner really focused my attention.

@jackrifleman562

6 ай бұрын

He ruined my day with the garlic mashed potatoes reference as well. Now that's all I can think about.

I gave you a like, even though I misread the title. I thought this was about the Soul Train hypothesis, with Don Cornelius.

This theory does have a strong potential. There have been several recreations of ancient Atlantic voyages, The Brendan voyages and the Ra Expeditions by Thor Heyerdahl come to mind. And the ancient voyages describes by Herodotus where Phoenician ships circumnavigated Africa. Indeed, there is no Ocean on the planet that cannot be crossed by primitive boats; a 40-60 foot dug out canoe can travel around the world

The pinned comment thread is insane idk how you were so patient with that person 😭

Fantastic presentation. It helped me to hear that this was only proposed as a hypothesis to be tested in the original publication. I am very interested in genetic genealogy as well as precolumbian history. A couple of possible problems with evaluating Native American genetics is that they suffered an extremely high population loss after European contact. Some say 90%. Also, probably the majority of Native American burial grounds were destroyed by agriculture and construction. This skews the genetic data for surviving Native Americans and burials in the extreme. For example, there are accounts of black-skinned NA in California and Costa Rica and white-skinned NA in Venezuela for which there is no surviving evidence. So genetic comparisons with old world populations is going to be hit-or-miss at best. I appreciate you doing these videos for those of us who have the interest but not the same education as you. My family farm was a Keyauwee campsite on the NC Great Trading Path and my gr-grandmother was from the NC Catauba tribe, so the information you share about east coast tribes answers many life-long questions for me personally. -Andy

2 questions. one is outlandish but im still curious. How could all this connect and relate if say instead of saying that ancient western europeans went to eastern america, that western europeans and eastern americans were disseminated from say greenland. Yes I know greenland has been an ice cube for at least 100k years, and they had to come from somewhere but human migration is full of back n forth and criss crosses and is messy, and greenlqands ice has 'changed' its age before. 2nd question. is it possible that there is a specific prey item in the north atlantic that may necessitate these types of similarities in hunting tools?

tyvm

I think you're right about the Solutreans.

I believe, and Gravettian also, I have collected both from collections some over 100 yrs old along the east coast. For the last12.years, the book is a wakeup call Rember Toper dates 50,000 years ago. Great videos thank you very much Nathanael. .

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Even Al Goodyear doesn't think his 50,000 cal BP dates at Topper are legit. Neither does David Anderson, or anyone who actually worked there.

@paulfreeman23000

6 ай бұрын

I would like to recommend Dr.Darrin Lowery work on ResearchGate , Parsons Island and other . He has very great knowledge of this subject and should be mentioned with the Solutrean hypothesis. He would make a great addition to a interview on your channel. Thank You Nathanael , I try to keep a open mind on this subject. The Upper Paleolithic is a important part of our History.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

I've got one degree of separation from Lowery and I'm privy to some group emails with him and colleagues on the eastern bipoint phenomenon. I referred to his work several times when I was doing background reading for this episode.

I found alot of useful information here. I believe I'm in possession of artifacts from the preclovis overshot pieces. I have identified a settlement sight. Southeast Appalachia.

@NathanaelFosaaen

Ай бұрын

Tell App State.

Nice work guys. I love the idea of ancient, heroic migrations but I prefer to let the evidence convince me (or not).

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

We call that "being an adult."

Excellent overview of the subject! It must be a real challenge to decide what to include and how to lay out an analysis like this, so kudos for a job well done! If I might offer a few points of interest - 1 - Never trust anyone who immediately discounts an idea as "white supremacist". You'll notice that the people who immediately attacked the Solutrean Hypothesis intentionally used that terminology to demonize the idea... rather than using actual science. This is a very bad sign for the scientific community, condemning the whole field because it necessarily implies that those people would bury any evidence that didn't fit their ideology. They've shows that they will go on the attack with logical fallacies and false claims, so you have to wonder what else they would do. We saw this behavior again in the recent find of the ancient fossilized footprint in Crete, where the "experts" attacked the people who presented the find, did the research, etc. That report could only be printed in a journal of geology because there was no denying the rock layer it had been found in. 2 - DNA is a fickle thing and can easily mislead people who have preconceived notions. As you said, the DNA samples we're dealing with are minuscule and we can't say that we have a complete picture of human migration. It's important to remember that 80% of men, historically, have not bred. That means their DNA isn't necessarily available to us. If you are the only surviving child of the family and get killed by a Wooly Mammoth, all the evidence of you and your ancestry going back millions of years... disappears entirely. This is important because we have to remember that we cannot assume that the lack of European DNA in current American Indian samples means that there were no European DNA people here in the Western Hemisphere thousands of years ago. There's absolutely zero reason to believe there would have been any interbreeding between the two peoples. If we look at the Cherokee Indian origin story of the "Moon Eyed People", we see how they talked about fighting them and warring with them, driving the Moon-Eyed People out of the area so the Cherokee could have it. There's no mention of them falling in love, getting married, joining together to make a stronger group. Instead, it's talk about meeting them and immediately fighting them, driving them away. This is important because it gives us some tidbit of insight into how relations might have been. When European tribes first arrived in historical times, the incidents of interbreeding were still rather rare due to all sorts of societal things going on, and the 'native' tribes had a long history of warring with one another rather than interbreeding and raising happy families in some utopian existence. As an example of this "in miniature", consider that we know for certain that viking-era Europeans were living in Newfoundland for a period of time, yet there is no European DNA found in the local indian tribes who were also in the area and should have interbred if the idea of interbreeding is some kind of mandatory thing human groups must engage in. 3 - Disease works both ways. It is possible that the Solutrean outposts in America were wiped out by either a disease brought over from traders back in Europe.... or that something was introduced by the indians coming across the Land Bridge. 4 - I don't think it's fair to say the Solutrean points found in America are not Solutrean since they are more rounded along the edges. While this could indicate Simultaneous Invention, it could also be simply what the singular flintknapper did because that's what they wanted to do. It's not like we have a huge collection of points to judge things by, and it's reasonable to believe that a group of Solutreans in an American trading outpost might show a little variation from the Solutreans living back in the Solutrean capital city. Here's where we get to the problem of having to filter through the anti-European sentiment in the sciences which is highlighted by these attacks with claims of "white supremacy" I mentioned above. Nobody hesitates to say that Siberians or Pacific Islanders could navigate huge expanses of open ocean on boats made of reeds, obviously populating places like Hawaii and Rapa Nui against all odds, but those same people will turn their noses up at the notion that Early Europeans could never have "island hopped" from Mainland Europe to England, Iceland, Greenland, and then to the American Continent. Even though that feat is far easier and more believable since the distances were far shorter and we know the people must have had boats of some kind, much like the Eskimo have developed, the scientific community has a very long history of fighting hard against the idea. Again we can look to the way the Viking Hypothesis was treated by the scientific community.... until incontrivertible evidence was dug up in Newfoundland. Prior to those finds, the scientific community as a whole was very quick to attack anyone suggesting the idea, calling them all sorts of vile names, and those same people are still there, still working, and have faced no censure for their unscientific actions. It makes you wonder what else they might be doing to undermine the sciences in order to bolster their own beliefs.

What is the style where a slightly curved flake is the entire piece (arrow point) and there is absolutely no flakes removed from the concave side? It only has 1 flake knocked off for the base, 2 for the sides and 3 or 4 for the point. 3/4 of an inch long by almost half. Pretty much diamond shaped with a flat bottom and only a suggestion of "wings" to tie to (not sure the term). Between the east coast and the Great lakes area. Solid tan and nearly transparent like a lighter beer bottle glass that is slightly milky. It isn't anything like the grey flint I find that's got 70 to 100 flakes removed to finish it. It looks nothing like all the rest (dozens of points and scrapers), except the polished slate blade/scraper. That's kinda novel too, slate chest plates are not unheard of around here along the rivers.

@napalmholocaust9093

6 ай бұрын

If it helps more, the flakes of the sides meet in the center, so does one tip flake. The rest are just little nips close to the edge.

@napalmholocaust9093

6 ай бұрын

You guys get to it 17 minutes in. I'll leave it for the algorithm's sake tho.

This must be a good channel. Look at all the trolls. Video and trolls got me subscribed....

So in Indiana I've found 3 Clovis points in a field with " pea gravel" and Willow leaf points. The field is in the area once known as the Grand Kankakee Marsh on a sand hill surrounded by black dirt. As I was told " pea gravel" is found where Glacier Cane areas. Another find inthis area has been 2 rat tail copper points. What do you think 🤔

I kept rewinding to try and figure out if that coffee at the start was some kinda Easter egg 😂

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Here's the scoop on that and I'm gonna tell ya. went to start editing and realized I didn't like the intro recording I had made, and decided I had to re-record it real quick first thing. Basically rolled out of bed, went down to the lobby to get breakfast, and then had that realization. I set up my camera real quick with full bedhead, took one last swig of coffee, and recorded it. I realized I didn't leave enough of a gap between the sip and when I started talking, and I was in no mood to try it again, so I just left it.

@paul6925

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen 😂 Understandable. It's hilarious that I read too much into it

20:18 - 20:48 Another thing to point out, regarding convergent evolution, is the different peoples working stones the same way in different places at different times, are working with very similar materials for a prolonged period. Remember, the Eastern coasline of North America and the Western Europe were just a single landmass before the Atlantic Ocean formed. These rocks that 2 different cultures an ocean apart were working were once the same rocks, not an ocean apart because said ocean is younger than the rocks in question.

Is this guy you did this collaboration with the same guy who has the Dark Footage and Dark Docs channels? His voice sounds familiar.

Great vid as usual, more power to both (great) channels. . The Solutrean Hypothesis, although likely incorrect, cannot, and should not be dismissed to the same dustbin of crazy "hypotheses" of the Hancock or Pyramid-Building aliens type. You can find there all the typical reasoning chains and evidential standards sought by archaeological interpretation generally. There is talk of local or regional technical precursors (or absence thereof), there is a concern with the likelihood of independent innovation, interpretations are guided by grounding all the relevant archaeological entities both spatially and chronologically, and so on. . At best the authors can be accused of sweeping complicating bits of evidence under the rug (selective use of evidence), or of failing to follow the whole thread of implications to their claims, likely wary of the potentially destructive consequences as far as their main argument goes. Spotting the problems with the hypothesis is certainly a good exercise in archaeological interpretation.

Great collab! But sad to see the kidiots in the comments didnt learn a thing from the video. History, much like science, is constantly evolving. Much respect to both! A'ho!

Yessss a dream combo

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Nice study, I congratulate you. You should also take into account that X mtdna is close relative of A mtdna, possibly younger than A mtdna. I think A, X mtdna are paralel to P, Q, R ydna. P1 is altaic siberian ydna and ancestor of both native american Q and central asian and european R similar to A is older and X is younger maternal linage of same separation to east and west from siberia. Because, A mtdna is found inside turkic, siberian people as also found in native americans. If we take into consideration, X is related to A mtdna and found both in Turkey (west) and America (east) originated from siberia. So, everything is getting clear in my mind. Thanks and regards!

Cheer! Cheer! 🍻

My theory is that because geologically the americas and europe share some similar stone types and working the same type of stone would cause one to make similar choices in working the stone without any contact.

21:01 The feature common to Magdalenian and Clovis, _"the pebble paved floors are __20:52__ interesting but the Solutreans never made __20:54__ them as far as we know that's a later __20:57__ Magdalenian feature"_ ... well, would fall within the years from 2693 and 2644. It would also fit within the lifespan of a single early post-Flood artist.

it is terrible that some people definitely did not watch the video, yet they swarm here to comment. Or they did watch, yet they learnt nothing.

Loved the video. Even my wife, who usually watches laughing babies and cats, was asking me about bifaces.

Too bad you couldn't get Bruce Bradley to come on your program to counterpoint your argument He's an incredible archaeologist and would be a great asset to be able to have his point of view in this discussion.

Where do unifaced granite points from the New England area fit in ? Is it Clovis or Folsom learning how to work harder stone ? Is it before that ? Lithic ?

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

I've never heard of that. Do you have a source?

@AncintArt2ndColony

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen ya, me. I live in MA. I'm not a scholar but I specialize in collecting granite and other hard stone artifacts from around my area. It's a unifaced style for the most part but not always. Quartzite is another seemingly preferred material around here . Any thoughts on this ? You can see some of my collections !

@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095

6 ай бұрын

@@AncintArt2ndColony *_"ya, me"_* So, you found some rocks, and you think they look like spear or arrow points? And no archaeologist has ever found such things? {:o:O:}

@AncintArt2ndColony

6 ай бұрын

See for yourself . I've videos on the matter. And are you saying no archeologist has ever found a unifaced point made of granite ! I must be special.

@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095

6 ай бұрын

@@AncintArt2ndColony *_"are you saying no archeologist has ever found a unifaced point made of granite"_* No, I though that's what you were saying. {:o:O:}

I love covergent development. It makes more sense to me.

Truly fascinating. I wonder" without the accusations of Eurocentric supremacy, would the Solutrean Hypothesis have been subjected to the same degree of *urgent* scrutiny? In other words, it seems that in this case an objection born out of an ideological premise was actually stronger that a purely technical argument as a motivating factor in stimulating futher research on the topic.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

The eurocentric issues weren't really a big thing until many years after the hypothesis had permeated academic circles. That whole thing was the product of white supremacist writers misusing the hypothesis in bad faith. That's about when academics got really loud about our objections in the press. Within published academic material we were already objecting pretty hard based on the merits.

@hedgehog3180

6 ай бұрын

The very people who proposed the hypothesis went out of their way to encourage critical examination of it and specifically pointed out what should be done to confirm or reject the hypothesis. So like given that why wouldn't archeologists go out and try to examine it right away? I mean it was an interesting theory that hit at just the right time where it could be given the scrutiny it deserves and in rejecting lots of interesting things were learned.

What about french flint found by jamestown farmer?! I seen in another documentary of solutrean tips

@NathanaelFosaaen

28 күн бұрын

It wasn't found by a Jamestown Farmer, it was found while excavating a historic farmstead. People have been collecting stone tools for hundreds of years, especially farmers in Europe. There's no reason to believe it was made in the Americas at all.

@user-ie7eg3hz7y

28 күн бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen YA COVER IT UP LIKE THE SMITHSONIIAN WHAT DID LINCOLN SAY ABOUT GIANTS?? THERE EYES GAZED ON NIAGRA JUST LIKE OURS

@user-ie7eg3hz7y

28 күн бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen giants who built the mounds

@NathanaelFosaaen

9 күн бұрын

Lol. Lincoln was buying into a completely false idea that was popular back in the 19th century. Giants aren't real. Regular-sized people built the mounds. Don't be ridiculous.

What about the X haplogroup being present in 35 to 50% of the Ojibwa people of the Great Lakes region?

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

Wrong kind of X haplogroup. European X is X2b, c,and d. American X is X2a and X2g.

@Rjandrushko1963

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for the clarity.

@VargoTheVargouille

5 ай бұрын

Do you have any more insight on the dating of X2a splitting from X2? Reidla et al, 2003 finds it to be ~18000 YBP and the Altaian X2e is much more recent ~6700 YBP@@NathanaelFosaaen

There are other arguments that can be made for either of those cultures such as a single group from either did make it the cashes could be previously repaired blades or a cashe that had been used repeatedly although I'm sure someone has already thought of that and made that argument

The stone actually is likely similar because at one time europe and north america were connected so you may see similar stone tools when the same kind of stone (with even a shared source) is used.

@mpetersen6

5 ай бұрын

When North America was joined into Pangea the East Coast was up against North Africa.

This is fascinating and I think maybe in 20 years we’ll be closer to the truth. I think the bog bodies having no genetic relatives and having 1000 years of habitation, evidence for Vikings in America, the footprints in New Mexico, the mammoth carved monuments at the bottom of the Great Lakes, the bluefish caves in Canada. I think it’s time someone tried to synthesize all that with the Clovis data. Polynesian influence in South America but not north? Seems everyone picks their own little piece of history, ignores everything else and says here’s how people got to America. Would just love to see someone try to paint an actual picture of what was going on here 25k years ago.

@jackrifleman562

6 ай бұрын

The journal PaleoAmerica deals with much of this stuff.

@timboslice980

6 ай бұрын

@@jackrifleman562 I’ll check it out! Thanks!

@AlaskaJiuJitsu

5 ай бұрын

Exactly- and not to mention the mound builders and the red head cannibal 😮

How do they explain the distribution of Clovis points? Maybe I missed something but to me it seems it was more established on the East Coast and moved out westward. It seems like a beachhead when you look at the map...

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

There's really not much to explain. By the time Clovis points were invented, the continent had already been inhabited for about 10,000 years. The eastern part of the continent is full of fertile river systems that attract lots of people so you end up with more clovis representation in the east than you do the west.

@richjageman3976

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen But why are some of the oldest also in the east? Decades ago I helped briefly with a dig on the DelMarVa peninsula and we were told the oldest Clovis points were all on the eastern side of the Mississippi and the oldest of the oldest was in the mid Atlantic area.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

@richjageman3976 I don't understand the question. They're oldest in the east because the tradition was probably invented there. Like I said in the video, the pattern is one that moves northwest from the southeast.

@richjageman3976

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen The question should have been worded better and was only partially for you. If as many others elsewhere stated that Clovis point proved the only prehistoric peoples came from Siberia why does it not match their stone tech and the most numerous and oldest are on the opposite side of the continent and more closely matches others? I rewatched the video without outside interruptions here and have a better understanding.

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

@@richjageman3976 Ok. Yeah Clovis has nothing to do with Siberia. Right on there. people had already been living in the continent interior for thousands of years before the Clovis technological complex was developed and it appears to have been invented in the eastern woodlands.

I'd leave the zigzag on the bone rods out, unless there is a progression of attachment technology shared through time. It may just be a widespread solution to the problem of point fixing. It comes from ancient pre-human tradition and tech, and very well may be coincidence owing to not ever being forgotten despite migration. We were pretty good at passing things along before writing could cross generations of non-related separate populations. Our survival depended on it. The opposite was done (onto the shaft itself) going back to Neanderthals and between then and now, it may be the only surviving examples of cross hatch to increase the surface area for an adhesive in non humans. Knowing for certain with half of something is difficult anyway.

@napalmholocaust9093

6 ай бұрын

It was a blended adhesive too, wax and rosin.

Can you guys explain the Chesapeake bay site? Or are we going to ignore that being older than clovis? Also using genetic data of people clearly of different region to say Solutreans didn't make it to America is kind of weird. Of course the indigenous of central and western US are not going to be sharing genetics with eastern natives that we have very little genetics data on comparatively