The current issues are related to the ink subscriptions that hp and others offer. They mail you ink every month or so for a fee. However if you cancel the service none of the cartridges in your possession that were mailed to you will work, HP locks them out. There's also some cases of scanner functionality being disabled due to lack of ink.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

That is an area I've avoided, it just sounds like storing up problems - none of the printers I've looked at have this sort of 'feature' From what I've seen of it I cannot think of any reason I'd choose it for a 'better' printer either

@jameswalker7874

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper In fairness, I've been with instant ink for 8/9 years and it's been absolutely brilliant. I've had 1 failed cartridge mailed out, which was replaced immediately and 2 months of subscription at the highest page count available was offered as compensation. Genuine ink supplied on time. I've never been without ink (aside from when the ones that came with the printer ran out on day 1 and HP hadn't had time to post them out for obvious reasons). I'd recommend it to anyone. A full colour borderless A4 print has the same "cost" as a full stop printed on whatever size paper you so choose. Obviously there's winners and losers with that logic - I've been a bit of a winner as most of my prints are full colour photos. The only downside is, as BENK950 has said, if you terminate your ink subscription, the cartridges cease to function. You've got to buy new cartridges from your supplier of choice. But the point is you haven't paid for the cartridge, you've paid for the pages you can print. So you haven't lost anything. Since the whole programme started, they've improved it quite nicely - up to 3 months print rollover so you don't lose any if you don't print x pages per month, and you can take a holiday if you don't think you're going to print for a while. You can go up and down the page plans as you see fit too. I'd really recommend it. Put it like this, if they did a P700 rival, or if Epson put the XP15000 on their ReadyPrint, I'd have bought one without hesitation. It's really worked for me and saved me an absolute fortune; but I accept that as with anything in life, it won't work for everyone.

@kevinarmstrong3415

9 ай бұрын

I use the HP subscription. We usually print text documents. The £5 approx a month for both B&W and colour cartridges is far less than the the cost of buying cartridges in a store. HP only send cartridges when the printer needs them. They don’t send them every month. So if I cancel I expect I may lose about £5. If I was printing photos I would want a printer and cartridges with refillable tanks. It’s a matter of the right tool for the job.

@rsilvers129

2 ай бұрын

It needs to do that. They minimize their shipping costs by filling those to the brim with ink. If you cancelled your subscription they can’t just give you that ink.

@5threel

2 ай бұрын

​@@rsilvers129it doesn't "need" to do that. They do it to force you to give them more money. If you paid for the printer and the ink you shouldn't NEED to pay to use it 🙄

It doesn't matter how old a "scam" is, anti consumers practices should always be called out. In the second video he explains how the printer uses colour ink to print black, the excessive cleaning cycles, not being able to scan if you don't have ink (this one was HP), etc. etc. If printers can't be sold at $50 and be profitable without those practices, companies shouldn't sell them. Not everyone can be an expert in everything, we shouldn't expect everyone to not be scammed when purchasing services or products.

@alejandrocifuentesferreira6182

9 ай бұрын

and I reply to my comment because I think you didn't see the video. It was a printer to print documents, not a photographic printer, nor a normal printer printing photos, it was running out of ink printing few documents. The customer Canon is targeting is not you and me, it's the average person that just needs a cheap printer at home to print every now and then. Again, we shouldn't "get over it", it's anti consumer practices, we should always call them out.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - I didn't see any second video - My thoughts presented here are because people contacted me specifically asking about how it applied to other printers, of the sort I do look at and test. People use printers like the sorts I showed for documents as well [ET-8550 for example] That said - some practices do need calling out in some areas. As does the need to do some rudimentary background research for any tech purchases.

@marcdevries9027

9 ай бұрын

It has been pro-consumer for many people in the past and it still will be for many people. If the cheap printer and the ink refills in it's life do not go higher than the cost of an expensive printer, then it is not anti-consumer. Especially in the past when newer better printers came out every year it was very beneficial to have cheap printers with expensive ink. Cheap hardware upgrades that I would not have been able to afford otherwise. Especially nowadays printer companies will point you to their low ink cost printers. So there is no scam. The real scam is making people think that you can have low ink cost and cheap printers that also print good quality long lasting prints. But somehow people do not talk about that "scam" from the cheap 3rd party ink companies. Their cheap inks also destroy the printer heads with constant clogging. That anti consumer practice should be called out, but somehow people never do. My mother has to replace a 3rd printer that doesnt work anymore because of cheap 3rd party ink. They were always able to convince her that their ink was just as good and that you also need cleaning cartridges with oem inks. (you don't) Luckily I've convinced her to buy an inktank printer and buy the low-cost oem ink and never buy the el-cheapo 3rd party ink anymore.

Brilliant rundown on printers and the selling model. I purchased an Epson Ecotank and it paid for itself in about 18 months using the bulk ink.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes, if you're doing much printing they are excellent.

People feel scammed for reasons beyond the price of ink. It's when you're printer refuses to print because it thinks it's low but there's still ink, it's when printers complain and give errors with 3rd party cartridges, it's when you can't print a black and white document because there's no magenta, it's when you can't use the scanner because there's no ink etc etc.

@KeithCooper

4 ай бұрын

Yes, more so for the smaller cheaper printers. Some of this is because running without an ink will damage some printheads, so the printer has to be a little cautious with its estimate of how much ink is left in a cart. This is never explained, so people can quite rightly think they are missing out on ink left in the cart. Unfortunately many won't listen to whatever explanations there might be, the companies don't bother [consumers are generally inept/disinterested in technical stuff, so why bother?] Don't get me wrong though - no scan because of no ink is a pure rip-off. This is partly why I very rarely review low end printers, I simply wouldn't want one even if you gave it to me.

The very best home printer I ever owned was an old Brother MFC235C that I got in Malaysia (expat assignment) on points with my bank at the time. I used that printer for the home office for 10 years. About 2 years into its use, I bought an external reservoir ($40) with tube-connected cartridges; I only had to Dremel out an area in the plastic front panel to make room for the tubes to pass to the reservoirs without crimping. This MFP worked flawlessly for 10 years before finally failing. The nice thing about that Brother MFC235C was that the cartridges were not chipped...so this mod was a breeze. I then went with a Canon G5050 mega-tank printer...only to have that clog up and fail within 2 years. This time around, I went with a G3520 and plan to do one nozzle check at least every month, to make sure the plumbing is frequently used...to avoid clogs. Keeping my fingers crossed...as these "mega-tank" printers generally do not have the best reputation.

@KeithCooper

3 ай бұрын

Yes, I've had old office stuff just keep plodding on...

If the printer keeps the print heads and uses a tank supply arrangement, consider the cost of replacement of the print heads. Some of those print heads cost 3,000 dollars each to replace. Consider servicing costs, replacement of pieces parts and... like Mr. Cooper says...consider the cost of the inks.

@KeithCooper

22 күн бұрын

Good points...

Yes, I'm looking back on a video you made six months ago! But It's how much sense you talk that I'm interested in. What you say makes so much sense! Cheers Keith. 😊

@KeithCooper

2 ай бұрын

Thanks

Some years ago, i had two printers; a basic one for letters, copying, labels, etc. and a better one for photos. I used cheap ink from a refill kit for the former. Worked acceptably well for that task. Now, i use the G620 for everything because it's convenient and takes up less space. Never thought i was being scammed in any case.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - definitions of 'scam' seem to vary widely ;-)

There's a concept called "adverserial interoperability": cars can be fueled with properly speced fuel from any manufacturer, not only the car companies' for example. Printer companies have long been due a proper slap on the wrist. What they're doing is anti-environment, anti-consumer and even anti-competitive.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

For office type work this is much more possible - for higher end colour critical work there are many more difficulties. This is part of the reason I don't test/review low end consumer level kit

I generally agree with your comments, I remember when supplied cartridges were described as suitable for testing. I've always bought a set of inks whenever I've bought a printer. This year the problem is the swingeing rise in ink cost, a set for my printer has gone from £90 to £170 in six months, hasn't stopped me printing though.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks - yes, very distinct price rises of late

Hello, I can’t find the video you refer to which describes the mac/canon cheaper end printers. Could you post a link please?

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

All linked from the main [written] review at www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-g550-printer-review/

Once again, you explained this that is very easy to understand. Now I have a much better understanding about print quality on inkjet printers. I now feel much better about my choice of printers. I have a Canon Pro-300 and a Canon Tr 720a for basic stuff. Everything I produce, I get good reviews, thanks to what I have learned from you.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks for that - glad to have helped

Printing photos isn't cheap and can become very expensive. But is more cost effective than when I was developing film and paper in the dark room. The cost of each print was around five time the cost of the inkjet printer and it was far more convenient. But the knowledge and the joy of printing is own photos is far more than the price pay. And by the way I not interested in coming back into the dark room. The price of the equipment the space needed and aving to deal with chemical in an environmental way and the quantity of water waste to wash print. It was fun when it have no other way but today is non sens.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - the hassle/cost factor is part of my not having a go with film again, before I even think about potential environmental concerns

Would you recommend the Canon Maxify gx3050 over the Epson ET-2850 for photoprinting? Theyre basicly the same thing but the Canon printer uses pigment inks instead of dye inks and is 100$ more expensive...

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I wouldn't choose either for photo printing if I had a choice... I've not tested the Canon though [but I note its fairly low resolution and no borderless printing] See here for why the 2850 is a good choice for a home office, but needs care for photos www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-2850-printer-review/

A wonderful clip, Keith. I will say that I don't find your clips long, involved, and technical: to me they are informative, detailed, and valuable. Thanks to you, I gained understanding and was able to make an informed decision regarding the printer I bought, and am content with my choice.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks!

There are lots of people who don't know. It is not obvious to most people that the price of ink is higher than gold, diamonds, caviar, champagne etc. Well, you get my gist. So for those people, it is a scam. Plus, as others have pointed out, plastic/oil/CO2/greenhouse gases/waste/landfill etc must be curtailed. I wish there was a world body that could tackle this type of bad practice.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - definitions of 'scam' do seem to vary...

@mch2359

Ай бұрын

I'm all for a one world government as long as the people who run it know what is best for us regular folks.

If a person is only printing *black text, laser printers* are fairly inexpensive now. The toner doesn't go bad with age and doesn't require cleaning cycles that wastes ink in the ink printers.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - I Still have an Apple LaserWriter around somewhere ;-)

@jefffenske1958

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper Some laser printers are only $90 now. I'm still using the original, starter toner cartridge that came with the printer, since I don't print a lot, and the toner is never used unless it's actually printing letters on paper.

@oronjoffe

9 ай бұрын

You’re right, but not completely. Many lasers are more expensive to run than economical inkjet printers. Also, while toners can last a long in the cartridge, some printers (e.g. HP) will declare them “expired “ after two years and will refuse to print. In short, it’s a matter if analysing your needs carefully, checking What’s on the market and choosing accordingly.

@jefffenske1958

9 ай бұрын

@@oronjoffe That sounds like scam that HP is doing. Good to know. Mine is from Brother. Another advantage of laser printers is they don't shake the table they're on with radically strong movements, like desktop printers can do, which may not be healthy for computer hard drives if they're on the same table.

Are there any 3rd party inks for the 8550 that are comparable to OEM? Ink owl prices are tempting as i print a ton of photos. Have you ever tried them?

@KeithCooper

4 ай бұрын

No - mainly because the printers I test are loans - Epson/Canon would not appreciate their printer filled with some random ink ;-) Oh and it potentially invalidates any warranty and means I'd need to make all new printer profiles, so I've not done it on any printer of my own either.

But make sure the printer has a replaceable maintenance tank not just a wad of ink absorbent material jammed inside!

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - good point, forgot to mention that one...

@supraptosuryodiharjo4338

9 ай бұрын

i have canon dan epson printer, with canon i can easly replace maintenance tank and it's cheap, only $5 for the original one, and with epson i have to dismantle the printer to replace the pad and reset the counter with service program or i can took it to the ESC for $25. i',m talking about 6 inks tank photo printer.

@octoinkjet

5 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper You forgot to mention Printer Potty?!! I'm appalled ;) That side of things is another rabbit hole though... There's definitely some annoying design decisions that have been made there.. Case in point XP510 to XP540 models.

@KeithCooper

5 ай бұрын

Not tried those. Obviously I don't get to test printers a very long time, so it's a gap in my testing I'm happy to admit ;-)@@octoinkjet

Another reason, for me, for using ink tank printers is that I know that I won’t run out of ink in a cartridge part way through a print. I’ve thrown out cartridges in the past which were not completely empty, and that was annoying. Thanks Keith

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes, that and replacing one cart making another run low...

@the_famous_reply_guy

6 ай бұрын

Can you tank any large printer in theory

@KeithCooper

6 ай бұрын

Possibly, although some will need far more work to get reliable ink flow and the printer to work@@the_famous_reply_guy

Hello Keith, It may well be that printer manufacturers sell their hardware below the cost of production, a practice that has likely been known for decades. However, in my opinion, it should not be the case that when I have acquired a device, the manufacturer dictates how I should use it. This may be understandable during the warranty period, but certainly not afterwards. It's somewhat akin to an automobile manufacturer telling me that I can only use their brand of gasoline to drive the car. Or that the car starts the engine automatically to clean the injectors and does it again before I can start driving, all under the claim that it ensures longevity and operational safety. To be honest, what utter nonsense! Certainly, companies want to make profits, but in this manner? It's no wonder that a rational person not only feels slight irritation, especially when the printer has been running smoothly, even with cartridges from other manufacturers. And all this just because greedy economists come up with ideas to squeeze even more out of users, ending up as electronic waste. What a great way to promote sustainability and resource conservation. And by the way... the same problem exists with expansive printers too!

@KeithCooper

8 ай бұрын

Yes - full agree you should be able to run anything you like through the printer - if you want to and accept the risk.

Thank you for being a voice of reason!

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Ths scam is not about the ink that comes with the printer, the scam is about the cost of the replacement ink cartridges ... which cost a bomb and have hardly any ink in them

@KeithCooper

Ай бұрын

Potentially - for small cheap printers, that however is just part of the range of printers I'm considering here.

I am only interested in photo printing. So high quality. However the costs of cartridges mean I just do not print anything. The cost of consumables is just plain unreasonable. I do not mind paying out for good equipment, like the computer. I resent the costs of actually printing anything, just display images on quality monitors it is actually cheaper and better. Yes ripping off the public with inks has been going on from the start. Other nonsense is not being able to print on a decent card or paper thickness. Rich people selling images/prints doubtless do not care. Sick of the difficulty and fear of printing anything due to the cost. My printers over my lifetime probably end up costing me several pounds a page as I print barely anything, then they die or are effectively obsolete.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I think the new tank printers are a step in the right direction in this respect.

I have to assume that the industries response like Epson's Eco tank options, which in Canada makes the cost of ink around 20 bucks per 80 mL which is much more affordable and a fraction of what the usual retail price would be. And these Clarion inks are pretty much the same that you would ordinarily pay for in a tiny cartridge that is 15 mL for $30. So if these economics are suddenly workable and the margins feasible for these companies, I have to assume that they've been marking up prices to exorbitant levels if not completely fleesing us over the years.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - it seems that some business models are being forced to change.

It is a scam when the printers are designed to breakdown after a certain amount of time.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

It would be if that were so? I've not seen any good evidence that there is any form of time limit. That said there are many smaller/cheaper printers I've never had a chance to test.

I have a Canon IP6700D 6ink A4 printer but can’t get drivers for Windows 10/11. I tried installing the win7 drivers but no luck.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I'd suggest asking about this on the print forum at DPReview.com - lots of people there using printers of all sorts and ages.

In another career years ago I worked at home centers/lumberyards; it became quite the task to calibrate people's idea of "expensive" as they had no clue what a "good" item should cost. Be it a toilet, 2x4 or window. A few never got it. Being out of motorcycles for many years I was shocked at how expensive they had gotten. Intellectually I knew it was going to happen, but living it was another matter (same can be said for housing prices now). Took a few years to recalibrate my motorcycle monitor. The next shock was camera lenses...... Most folks eventually get it, at least during that short time frame where they have to make a buying decision; but there are a few (thank goodness it's just a few) either never get it or don't want to and they really bring a rain cloud to your sunny day. sigh Used to say that retail would be great if it wasn't for the customers...

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Couldn't agree more - I learned a lot in an electronic components store in the 70's where I had a Saturday job. useful lessons about 'customers' I've carried on to many jobs/businesses ;-)

I do agree with you but will say that the real scam is when printer manufacurers prevent you from using third party inks.

@KeithCooper

8 ай бұрын

Yes - that counts as anti-consumer behaviour in some areas

They've been doing this for 30 or 40 years? I don't think bubble jets have even existed that long. I certainly remember them having more ink and the older printers are better printers as the deal keeps getting worse. Of course it's a scam, if you're deceptive about something it's a scam and they aren't upfront about it. HP literally calls it the razor and blade model, and they've taken it too far. It's anti-consumer. We need an open source printer.

@KeithCooper

2 ай бұрын

Yes - although in the video I'm looking more at proper photo printers. For cheap printers and the likes it has been like it is for a long time - I wouldn't want one. Cheap comes at a price. One would hope more were wary about it, but they aren't and some companies still get away with it. But ... just what would be an 'open source printer' in the real world?

A great tutorial. Thank you. Certainly food for thought.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Hi Keith, I'm looking at the canon pro graf pro 1000 for printing portature work. However, and it's a point I have to make regardless of the comments below which support your thoughts here. The cost of a full genuine canon replacement for this printer is roughly half the original cost of this printer new. You say you won't review third party inks, why not? A comparison, for say the above printer, which you've previously reviewed would be SO helpful, regardless of the risk of upsetting Canon. Love your reviews. Keep them up.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks - several reasons for me personally 3rd party ink, for me, mean a complete re-creation of all my icc profiles which I'm disinclined to do. A switch to other inks mixes them in a printer during the process - something else I'd rather not do. If I was selling prints I'd not want to trust to the unknown longevity of other inks. Lastly - I just don't have any printers I want to write off by doing such testing ;-)

A lot of my friends have switched to Epson eco tank printers after getting fed up with cartridges. I on the other hand got an HP LaserJet from my local recycling center.

@KeithCooper

5 ай бұрын

Yes - all depends on what you want to print...

Photo Review in Australia tested ink usage for the Epson EcoTank 8500 and the Canon Pro-200. They found a *44% savings* on ink for the EcoTank. They also found the Pro-200 to have *more vibrancy and better tonal reproduction.* [The Pro-200 has more inks, including light cyan, light magenta and light gray. The 8500 has a pigment black ink, which the Pro-200 does not.]

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

The mixed ink set of the 8550 makes for rather complex comparisons if you want to use a range of papers - that and both benefit from custom profiles. I'd be very wary making many comparisons beyond the ink savings, but that's just me ;-)

@jefffenske1958

9 ай бұрын

​@@KeithCooper They show the test images they used to test the amount of ink, so they're completely transparent and honest. They know these images won't represent everyone's images and how much text specific users will print, but it's a good , general comparison that gives users a pretty good idea how much savings one can expect from EcoTank printers. I think it's very valid and is very helpful and useful information to those looking for printers. If no one does tests like this the ink usage price comparisons is anyone's guess. Many people probably bought the EcoTank printers thinking the savings is much more than 44%. So by people not doing tests like this, people have nothing to base the ink usage differences on, so can have wild ideas that are far from reality about ink usage. Wouldn't you rather have people grounded in reality based on real tests, instead of people just imagining things based upon nothing but seeing the bottles of ink vs small cartridges? Others can do their test comparisons too, and see what they get. This is the scientific method vs. mere opinion. People deserve to know the truth.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I don't have any issue with this - it's why I regularly mention the Red River usage pages. I generally don't have the resources [or patience] to do rigorous A/B testing and ink usage.

@jefffenske1958

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper Great to hear! A/B testing of ink usage would be tedious and possibly unhealthy too. It's probably not good to breathe all of those ink fumes, which enough ventilation could minimize.

The point of the video your referencing was that the amount of ink stated on the packaging was no where near the amount of ink actually in the cartridge. That’s the problem. Using your Gillette analogy that would be akin to buying a ten pack of blades but there only being three in the package.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I thought it was more that the ink couldn't be poured out and was held in a sponge system where the inks wick through to the printhead?

@specialingu

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper its useable ink that matters. and it was really low. and its a economic and environmental disaster, really. ive had several printers get clogged/dried up from lack of use (in part from high ink prices) and then ultimately failed unblocking attempts, . so they go to the tip :(. I presume theyve done a cost benifit analysis on this model, rather than actually supplying a decent usable amount of ink at a reasonable price. but it is *very* exploitative to consumers. probably the actual cost per simple consumer cartridge is under £2 in terms of manufacture and distrubuting it in bulk.

We have this cheap Samsung office printer at work that we use a lot. It often says that its out of ink, but still prints plenty. I once was able to get about 6 months of active use out of it with apparently no ink. Usually i get at least one or few after it says out of ink. I think this sort of thing is an obvious scam, but i doubt its there with more professional printers, but its about selling more of the expensive ink cartridges to cheap printers, often ink cartridge costs as much as the printer itself, which comes with ink, so there is no margin in selling those printers, all margin is in inks. Obviously a lot of margins in pro-300 for example is in inks, but with "professional" gear that sort scam just wont fly, and like you said ink is also used to maintain the printer etc. People tend to be vary about all printers because they heard what some companies do with the cheapest office printers.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - good point

I'm guessing the recent video from Fstoppers is what reignited this discussion. I believe the "scam" part comes from the marketing. With how many people get confused/misunderstand the reason for the high cost, you would expect a response in kind from these printer companies, but that's not what we see. Instead, they seem to lean into the confusion that's been around for decades.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - several people sent me a link. I just kept wondering how anyone could be so surprised at what you got from a $49 printer ;-)

@Tubeytime

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper "Normal" people don't think about printers like you and they don't want to think about them. I don't blame them either.

Ive watched some videos on here about the downsides of EcoTank type printers from Epson & Canon. Notably the ink pad issue once the sensor detects its full brings up an error code that disables the printer. Others claim alot of ink gets wasted not least by performing a flush to clean the heads should they dry up if the printer isnt being used often. Apparently the pads are not replaceable & will need sending in to be serviced. There are ways to reset the chip by a third party. Canon printers affected are models between 2017 & 2019, since then the more recent printers have a maintenance cartridge that you can swap out. Not sure about Epson.

@KeithCooper

6 ай бұрын

I'd want a model with a replaceable maintenance tank [such as the ET-8550] What 'uses up' a lot of not easily replaceable parts is heavy use of borderless printing in small printers - that overspray has to go somewhere. One other issue is using basic home printers at commercial levels of uses - a big problem for people looking to print for a small business, but wanting to do it 'on the cheap'. The design usage data should be more prominently feature in the specs

@octoinkjet

5 ай бұрын

The borderless printing timebomb is a real problem for Ecotank printers even with Maintenance boxes. I hope things have improved but we've had quotes of over £700 to sort a P700 platen pad and reset the relevant waste ink counter. Without wishing to feed into the conspiracy biome it seems Epson are not considering that this is a very real and poorly considered issue for printers like the ET7000 and 8000 series when people are using borderless a lot. In that regard I don't think this is a consumer fault issue.

Well said. There will always be "cheap skates" who do not realise that "you get what you pay for" and "quality comes at a price".

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks - I get to hear some interesting stories from people at printer company stands at trade/photo shows as to what people 'want' and how much they want to pay for it ;-)

We know Gillett sells the razor cheap and makes money on the blades, so fine. But ink jet pushes this too far. They charge just enough for the printer so you feel like you bought it, but then sell ink for what might be $20,000 a gallon. They hide this with page counts that use 5 percent coverage when a photo is 80-100 percent coverage. I will no longer buy a printer for which there are no tanks and no aftermarket ink.

@KeithCooper

2 ай бұрын

Tanks maybe - but for myself, aftermarket ink means creating new icc profiles or unpredictable colour quality. However, if I was looking for an office printer I'd have a different approach - my comments are more aimed at photo quality printing.

What about those ink absorber pad counter? Do you think it is not a scam? I mean, technically, they could just make it easier for users to replace the pad and sell the pad for a reasonable price, right?

@KeithCooper

6 ай бұрын

A design which could be improved in some aspects - yes. Nothing I'd call a scam though.

I owned many HP printers (lasers, inkjets), the last was a inkjet 2 in 1 printer + scanner. Used it for printing for some time, later the printer part was not needed (had a much cheaper to use laser instead, btw. also HP back then) but used the scanner part for some time more. Once after a driver update or I don't remember exactly when, the scanner just refused to work, it said it needs a new ink cartridge. The scanner needs ink! I remember reading the message twice to realize in what a scam I was taking part - on the s.cking end. I threw that thing immediately far away. about 10 years passed since then. it was such a vile and obvious punch to my naive brand loyalty - I'm not with many things so determined - I'm very careful to never have any HP products near me again.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

That's out and out bad behaviour - I hear this more about HP, but have not tested anything of theirs for quite a few years, after they lent me a printer and told me I could only use the ink supplied for the review - I couldn't have any more...

@rupertthomson

9 ай бұрын

There's a salient lesson here about a concept borrowed from the UNIX computer world (or at least they have codified the idea very well...) which states "Do one job, and do it well". In their case it relates to computer programs, in this case it applies to having one machine to do one job rather than multifunction machines. "Jack of all trades"...

@nick066hu

9 ай бұрын

@@rupertthomson I even remember my train of thought when I bought it: "In case I will not use the printer part that much, it is also a scanner that I can use forever. Btw. almost all brands keep making these combos, let's hope such extremities of greed stays out these days.

@rupertthomson

9 ай бұрын

@@nick066hu Agreed!

@nick066hu

9 ай бұрын

​@@rupertthomson if anyone happens to know or ever meets the great HP engineer or salesman who came up with this idea. I have for him an Earth Planet Landfill Award - Gold Grade waiting that I made from parts of that printer. 😜

Problem is, one manufacturer cuts just a tiny lil' off the printer price to get an advantage on the market, and calculates that into ink prices... the competition will be scratching their heads on how did they do that?! And they will eventually come to the conclusion that it cannot be done because economical and physical limitations, so they end up cutting the printer price as well, maybe even lower to get an advantage, and they raise ink prices... and this spirals into the situation that is now. Oh, the little anecdote has gone down decades ago might i add. You can all thank this to the stupid masses who persuaded manufacturers into all this, just as they ruin democracy, printers and the free market in general, aren't an exception either.

I stopped using Photo printers because the A4 printer have no printer profiles and the ink dried between the prints. I will get a A2 printer in a few year to do B/W. I need to take some good pictures first.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Not all A4 printers have no profiles - you can also buy paper from suppliers who will make profiles

@thomaseriksson6256

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper ok thanks. I need a A3 or A2 printer next time. I got a HP laser printer for document that work sometimes

People want the moon on a stick. I've just filled up my ET-8550 with the rest of the ink that was left after the first fill. I'm glad I got a better printer as opposed to a £100 one. I've always been aware of starter cartridges even with a laser as you say it's been standard practice for at least 30 years. I don't even get why people use unbranded inks why not have a known "standard" and the peace of mind original ink will work with your printer! 😊

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - the 8550 was the first ink-tank printer I tied and I was rather more impressed than I'd anticipated...

I do appreciate your "no nonsense" videos. 🙂

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks ;-)

“Cheapness comes at a cost.” Well said.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks

Out of curiosity is there a legitimate reason that printer inks in general are so expensive? I understand that they are working on longevity and photo quality but hasn’t the ink technology stagnated, so R&D can’t be that drastic and it’s just material and production costs.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I don't know the economics of Canon or Epson's printer divisions [commercial and consumer] enough, but there is a lot of research going on into print head designs and ink formulations - but as to how the different parts of the business work - I don't know. The big jumps in performance have been done - I see this in printer updates

@kore996

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper do you think there will be a significant and justifiable increase in quality and tech in the next 5-10 years? Do you have theories on what they could improve? How would improved printer head design help? Sorry that was me bombarding you with questions that there’s probably no answer to 😂.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

The major improvement areas I'd like to see are in paper handling and usability Reliability and speed is still a question for print heads - making multiple channels easier/cheaper. As to inks, I think there will be more specialist inks, driven most likely by industrial/commercial needs. Differences will be harder for me to show!

Good video Keith

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Instead of paying £50 for a home printer but spending a lot on replacement cartridges could I pay £200 but be able to use non own brand cartridges? No, all branded cartridges are expensive no matter what level of quality the printer is. If there was a printer available that could use any cheap cartridge off ebay I think that would be fair as you would be paying the manufacturing cost of the printer but that choice is not available. The difference between the cost of branded cartridges and ebay ones is huge. If you do not mind that a cartridge might not be as good as others but cost is the overriding consideration why can you not buy a printer at a honest cost and use whatever cartridge you want? I suspect that locking you to expensive cartridges brings a lot more money in and too many people would just pay an honest printer price and go there own way.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I agree you should be able to use any ink you like However I'd still not personallyuse third party inks - primarily for quality reasons. Depends on how important 'cheap' is to the user.

brilliant, ta very much!

@KeithCooper

8 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Same with buying a car. If you buy cheap, you won't have a good fuel efficiency. If you buy a more efficient car, you will have to pay a higher price.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - I've had enough very cheap cars in the past ;-)

Knowing what video triggered this is entertaining. It’s like you said…this isn’t old news BUT that being said, for people who are just out shopping and thinking they are getting a deal for their kids back to school items probably don’t know any better. This is why I bought a black and white laser printer over a decade ago and while I needed to replace the printer it was only because the printer was cheaper than the…I can’t remember the part now but it’s not the toner 🤔 I think it was the drum. Anyways…while it’s a dramatic title to the video he’s not entirely wrong to be trying to get the word out to as many people as possible about the true expense of inkjet printers. If you need office type prints and colour is truly not needed then I suggest a black and white laser printer…because honestly how many times do you need colour in your word documents 😂.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - if people ask me for printer suggestions and it's not just photos/art I recommend a wider search

"Ink scam - just get over it" should be a slogan in printer makers advertisements lol. I agree though its not really a scam when the printers are cheap and people will choose a cheaper printer over a more expensive one even if the cheaper one has more expensive inks because people only consider the immediate cost thats on the box price tag - so its the market and the consumers choices that got us the "ink scam" in the first place.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes, you can lead horses to water...

You test a lot of printers. Have you experienced any problems with the ink tank printers where sponge at the back of the printer would fill up with ink, and the printer would basically brick out?

@KeithCooper

3 ай бұрын

No, I haven't. However, remember that I test new printers from setup. It takes a lot of printing to potentially cause the issues you mention. Far far more than I'd ever do in a review and more than more than the majority of home users would ever do over several years - these are home printers after all. I'd personally prefer larger printers with maintenance cartridges although lots of borderless printing seems to exacerbate issues as well.

My first impulse is to ask you if you are aware of something called "Stockholm Syndrome"? But that's a half-arsed joke. I can totally see your point, Keith. I don't even think we get the printers for free and we then have to pay them back through our ink purchases. Too many people buy these devices on impulse and hardly ever use them. These printers are absolutely not sold on a loss. It's almost a marginal business, though. If we look at the past 30 years of better inkjet printers than the matrix printers of the 80s, then Moore's Law has helped to make them cheaper by a lot. Let's face it, a Raspberry Pi with free Linux and a hat to control the print head and nozzles. So the IT side of the printer has become dirt cheap. The R&D went into the improvement of the pigments, enlargement of the colour spaces, improvement of longevity, and better print heads. When we buy an inkjet printer capable of professional quality larger prints, then we get ink cartridges that are not completely filled - because there's a "line" (tiny tube or hose) from the cartridge to the print head that needs to be filled before we can start printing. Having to buy all new cartridges for my old Epson 3880 - in the 500 currencies ballpark, say, 50% of a new printer's price (but with a meaningless to printing pigment ink reserve coming with that). And setting print resolution higher than 360 DPI, the ink consumption per square (area of paper) easily doubles. It's not cheap but the results are really great. The other day, I saw a video of a photographer taking his 4"*5" landscape shot to a drum scanner and then to printers. The printer used a photographic "laser printer" but that's not the Xerox type printer but rather an LCD projector with a laser lamp projecting the image on a (negative) photo paper that next needed to be processed like in the "old" days. That video is 4.5 years old and today I would not even consider this as an option.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Yes - I think the technology has changed in many more ways than some consider.

Keith, you just tell me which one to get and I’ll do it. Otherwise I’ll never print anything. This is killing me…

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Start here... www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-8550-printer-review/ See what features matter / don't matter Then have a look at some of the other reviews - or drop me an email...

@dionysusrex9183

9 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper cheers Keith!

Thanks for doing a much better version of my original comments on the label-printing guy's video. Given his years of experience in photography reviews, he must have known better and just used this as an opportunity for sensationalism (and bashing canon as usual).

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks - I've quite a few dismantled cartridges in some of my older written reviews. I never realised they could be so popular ;-)

Thank you. I'm now a new subcriber

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks - glad it's of interest!

Get an old printer, over USB, that accepts third party cartridges (those without the DRM chip in them)

@KeithCooper

8 ай бұрын

Yes many ways of going about it - just depends on why you want a printer and what level of quality/cheapness meets your needs...

Dear Mr. Cooper, Across the pond we understand when we’re being buggered. You are entitled to your dismissive attitude “just get over it” for yourself as you can pass on your costs to your customer. The rest of us might not be so lucky. Let’s look at the cost. Typically that ink is more expensive than Chanel No.5. In bulk that would be $9600.00 per gallon. That would buy you (at today’s high prices) almost 2000 gallons of gasoline or nearly 2300 gallons of milk. Kinda pricey don’t you think? Then we have the schemes. Why does a multi-function printer need to be loaded with three colors and black to enable the scanner? I can answer that. The marketing department thought it would be a good way to sell more consumables. The customer be damned. Why are many printer cartridges equipped with firmware that can render the cartridge unusable at the whim of the manufacturer? Oops, pesky marketing department. The list of shady printer tactics is a long one. I fully accept your argument in regard to ultra low priced printers. One should not expect to print out the human genome with the ink included with a bargain printer. Even after accepting that argument the reason so many people think injet consumables are expensive is because they bloody well are expensive. $9600 per gallon is expensive in most anyone’s book unless you’re ultra wealthy. Would you accept as a cost of doing business filling your device material as expensive as Chanel No.5? Oh wait, that’s right you do. It’s catching up with some of the manufacturers. They have successfully been sued in court and that should tell you all is not correct in printer world.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Fair enough - definitely would never suggest one of the ink schemes

It's a scam, because you get 20 documents out of $70 worth of cartridges. I really seriously doubt it costs $70 for that much ink. It probably costs HP like 10 cents for that $70 in cartridges. So, yeah that to me makes it a scam. It's also an environmental disaster. I bet most of these end up in landfills without hardly being used.

@KeithCooper

2 ай бұрын

Ah - HP... I should have perhaps been clearer that I'm not looking at 'office' printers, especially cheaper ones.

I think you are on point with this one Keith. However, I do get browned off when you buy a camera and the supplied card will only hold 1 RAW file. I guess its there to just prove the camera works.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

I don't think I've come across that for very many years - who does this?

Brilliant! You are so right ! Caveat emporium! (Buyer beware) since Roman times same story. There is an old Eastern European story about the poor peasant villager who went to town and bought a pair of expensive boots. His neighbour asked him why he paid so much and he replied, "I'm too poor to buy cheap boots". Same story in away with what you are saying about you pay for what you get. You do well balanced and unbiased reviews. I work for a store that sells printers of all major manufacturers, your reviews are immensely useful. Thank you.

@KeithCooper

9 ай бұрын

Thanks- glad to be of help!