This deserves a Nobel Prize. I can finally rest easy knowing that they truly are different. Thanks for your continued hard work in the disc golf community. You deserve more recognition than you’ve ever received.

"you're hired" - Innova

@jerseylife8701

3 жыл бұрын

Lololol

@gobluz3

2 жыл бұрын

No fired😂

@phajeb001

2 жыл бұрын

They need to fire their Quality Engineer guy! Lol

This should be viral in the disc golf community

@TibbShire

5 жыл бұрын

Agree.

@keepdiscgolfweird5879

4 жыл бұрын

Great comment. I was really surprised by the community's reaction to this video when it first came out. For me, it was like a light had been turned on.

@LiftOperator52

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. New to the game, but the science geek in me LOVES this type of approach and data.

@ChrisTopher-vh8tu

2 жыл бұрын

@@keepdiscgolfweird5879 how did the DG community react?

@SquirtHoliday

Жыл бұрын

Just saw this mentioned on reddit (who is apparently evil now for canceling 3rd party apps) so its lowkey dead ass viral frfr no cap on god shits bussin fam esketit

We need more videos like this. I loved the attention to detail!

I went to my local disc golf store today and stacked up all the Destroyers they had, 27 of them. Champion, Star and Pro plastic. I used your pin method and was able to find a perfect under stable Destroyer, it is a 162gr domey pop-top Pro plastic one. Your insight, experiments and due diligence in measuring these discs is awe-inspiring and helped me throw my longest throw to date. Thank you!

@DothSavek

3 жыл бұрын

Thats awesome to hear! I'm glad you found a nice one.

Great job... Went to the garage and grabbed a rivet immediately

I thought your process of analyzing the baffling variation in Destroyers was methodical and logical, and quite right. You have answered a question I've wondered about for YEARS! I have had 3 Destroyers - one was one of the best drivers ever, and the other two could NEVER fly straight. Thanks for sharing your excellent analysis and insights !

@macaronicheese5510

2 жыл бұрын

This video should be titled "Why you should NOT buy Innova Discs,"

@ryosapien27

Жыл бұрын

You’ve had 3 destroyers? You mean at a time or in your lifetime ?

@tomthebrainiac

Жыл бұрын

@@ryosapien27 I have only had 3 Destroyers, ever. 2 of them would never fly straight for me and both of those had a cupped inward surface on the underside of the "wing," as described in Doth's excellent video. The 3rd Destroyer, the one that flew straight and far, had a full flat shape across the underside of the wing. Now, when I shop for driver discs, I look for the full flat shape on the underside of the wing as a requirement before buying. I have found that Westside Hatchet and Discraft Heat (fairway drivers) are a more consistent alternative to Destroyers.

doing gods work here ....lol good stuff

You went deep. I dig it. We may need episode 2 on this.

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

I'm working on that episode 2. It may take me some time. I need a drone. I ideally would be showing flight comparison of many other discs in the same realm as the Destroyer and see what happens. For now I have 6 Kongs and a very tall stack of Forces that I'm trying to learn about.

At 1:10 to 1:35 I like how you basically called out the industry and the industry representatives for not being forthcoming in their knowledge of inconsistencies of the run of disc that you are featuring here. As a noob, this is powerful info. This bit of education I am recieving here will be taken from this moment forward. Thank you for sharing these findings...

This helped me pick exactly the Destoyers I wanted. No more surprises.

find that golden destroyer then hang it up and never throw it again.

Youve got me measuring all my destroyers! Thanks for all this effort, you really uncovered some secrets here!

My mind was just blown when I flipped over my destroyer and found the 3-grind block that I never noticed

Colorants also change the way a plastic responds to heat and cooling cycles, sometimes drastically. Beyond temp and humidity in their factory, slightly unique plastic blend, or workers using a unique heat/cool cycle for the day, color additive is another factor that will influence how a disc comes out of the mold. I found that blue and pink katanas are more often the shape that I like. Every orange ive tested was far too overstable. White has typically been in the middle. Great discussion. I would wonder how the top height relates to the flying edge as well, if there is also a correlation on each disc or if it’s an independent factor that also influences flight.

Loved the video! Thanks for taking the time to make this.

This makes sense to me and why my destroyer wasn't acting the way i was expecting it to. Thank you!

Your attention to detail and communication on your findings is on point! Thank you so much for this video. Answered questions I didn’t know I had lol

Somebody has to give a call out to your dog. I'm glad you tossed him a ball every once in awhile :)

This is not only the destroyer.

Thank you very much for your time and efforts. This was a huge help not only to better understand how and why discs fly the way they do, but also to be able to more precisely find the discs that fly better for myself. The attention to detail and research you committed to was profound. Much gratitude.

Great video! I for one love how much variety I can get out of so few molds and this will help me find exactly what I'm shopping for. Thank you!

I watch all of your channel. You are incredibly articulate and an absolute pleasure to watch. Thanks for everything you do and keep the videos coming.

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

@Jake Rodee Thank you for the compliment. Nice words like these keep me inspired. Stay tuned! I am just editing footage tonight. Should be recording the first in a series of disc reviews this week. Starting with the 2x Ricky Destroyers! Can't wait to see how this works out.

That is some great analysis and explains so much about overstability vs understability primarily being in the shape of the wing. Thanks for putting in the work to advance knowledge in the community.

@jhcuatro

3 жыл бұрын

I checked my SDS' and your theories prove true for my 4 SDS that I throw...

I've learned so much from this video, absolutely awesome! I went through some of my discs and your method helped me sort them. Later on the course they all flew true to the measurements! I will also use this at the shop to pick and compare new purchases! Thanks for a fantastic vid.

"spectrum of stabilities" YESSSS!!!!! Someone finally gets it!!!!

awesome analysis, thanks for putting measured data to what I've been trying to figure out by just gripping on and throwing different runs. I immediately grabbed my stack and started measuring, and there is definitely a direct correlation, my most stable all have a much deeper wing.

I've noticed the same thing with every mold, never had the focus to complete this kind of a study. Thanks for helping to confirm things in my mind.

dude you are killin it! thanks for doing this research

I love Innova's QA process. No way for the average person to have any faith in the product they are buying.

Thank you! I have ordered a few Destroyers since I finally reached the point where I threw multiple discs at around 400 ft. Now to feel the discs when I get them and figuring their flight!

Wow one of the best disc reviews I’ve ever seen

Really great content brother! You answered my confusion on hyzer flips with different destroyers and getting star molds to flip up.

Maybe this knowledge is out there for research, but this is the first I've heard it; and I loved it! You kind of know instinctively the more of one mold you throw, but this gives at least a bit of explanation. The grind thing was a real eye opener for me.

This video was very enlightening and great info for people to know! I just bought a 175g Champion Glow Destroyer and before I even went out to throw it I knew it was going to be quite an understable driver because it has a flat slightly negative rim.

I love the detail you put into this video👏

I have a new Ricky star destroyer with MADE IN U.S.A. on it. The madeinusa stamp is a positive on the disc, not negative -- same as the Innova champion discs blurb of text. But the 'DESTROYER' stamp in the middle is a negative. Don't see any block marks. It looks like there's at least 3 molds then. The valley in the profile is in the middle of your spectrum.

What an amazing video...the way it was set up felt like I was witnessing detective work about government secrets or something haha, great stuff!

Excellent breakdown, this connected a lot of dots and explains how I got a Valkyrie that flies identically to a Thunderbird. Ordering online is such a lottery now.

Thank you for the knowledge my friend! Awesome review of the destroyer. I went ahead and checked all of my favorite discs and noticed similar discrepancies 'within the same run'. One thing I'd like to point out is that the same disc, but different run, had even greater differences. The most extreme I found was with two of my star plastic mambas. The bezel on the rim on one has 4 gradients, the other has 3, and they fly completely different (the 4 gradient is 'meat hook' - which is nuts the mamba is designed to shoot off to the right!).

Why isn’t everyone talking about this!? Great job on the video man!! Really well done

@DothSavek

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you Shawn! Its started to be come more well known for sure. Maybe I need to make a more concise version 2 that is easier to digest and perhaps it would spread further.

Wow! These vids are great... I wish I discovered you sooner, thanks for doing all of this wonderful research.

Looks more like a cooling inconsistency than a different mold they are using.

I knew they were all very different from one another but this blew my mind. I’ve always felt the 164-169 was the sweet spot, but some took longer to break in than others and some got super flippy after a year or so. I have 5 solid ones in my bag now after experimenting with at least 30. Great video. Thanks for sharing!

@justinwouters

Жыл бұрын

Hey I know this guy 😂. What's up man

Really well documented information . Thank you !

I grabbed my "throwable" destroyers (from my bag) and compared them to my pile of destroyers I don’t use...this was absolutely correct! I have 4 destroyers in different plastics (2xGStar, 1xPro, 1xChampion) that I throw all the time, I love them! And they all seem to be a “.2mm” type from your chart. I have 6 destroyer that sit in my garage and all of them looked like your “.65mm” pictures. Nice find my friend I also have “throwable” Archons and found the same thing. My “good” discs all have the same shape, and the ones in my garage that I can’t throw, had a significantly deeper groove.

Awesome video!!! Thank you very much for all the detail here. I went to Dick's this morning and came home with 2 Star Destroyers. One 150g, one 161g. The light one had a bigger gap than the heavier one. Neither one seemed as severe as the disks you showed here that were OS. These are both PMc 4x stamped *D's .. FYI, if you're in the store and don't have a rivet, a debit/credit card works well for eye balling the gap. Bottom line, I just went and threw them and they fly very similar to each other. Neither one is a meat hook. Very usable for my arm! I think the 11g weight difference is why the larger gap disc flies like the smaller gap/heavier disc.

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

That's so cool to hear you found some nice *D's. It sounds like you have 2 great throwers! The debit/credit card idea is perfect. I've been in a few stores now and have just been staring at the wing because I hadn't thought to take out my credit card. I'm gonna use your trick from now on :)

Half way through I had to check the two wraiths I have. Both star but different runs. Same thing you have found! Interesting and something I will look at when buying discs. Great content

Also important is the dome shape and stiffness when speculating on stability. Generally the flatter and softer, the less over stable in my experience. I only throw champion destroyers and they vary drastically. Some are dead straight while others are meat hooks.

I am so happy that you made this video, I knew something was up with Destroyers.

This is the best disc review video on the internet. Thank you, keep up the good work

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks you!!!

Inside diameter is also different on lots of runs. I re-fabricate discs and I noticed I had to change adapters several times when buffing destroyers.

Rumor has it that Innova changed their cooling time from 35 seconds to 28 seconds and they’re also using a different glue mix for their plastics and that causes a lot of the inconsistencies in each disc.

Great video! This is so helpful! I bought a champion destroyer online and it is definitely the way over stable type. It was a forehand only disc for me and always finished hard right for me. As it got beat in, I'm getting a lot more distance out of it and can throw it backhand now as well. It's turned out to be a much more useful disc over time, but it's taken some hard tree hits to get to that point.

Ive been saying this for years. Yes it is the mold but it goes for most all companies. The key is learning what you like. Great info! Thanks very much

Dude! Thanks for the video. So I’m a wraith thrower and have a huge stack that I work through for backups and field work and out of 9 that I had just in my office, I saw the same variations that for the most part correlated with what I thought was the more overstable to understable. An even more interesting thought is my wife has a sponsorship where she asked for a dx Valkyrie so she can have a hyzerflip Valkyrie till one broken in. The person went in the wearhouse and picked her out a champion 150 weight that was the most understandable brand new disc I’ve ever thrown. Just ran to the car to grab it and compare to her other Valkyries and sure enough even though the mold is still clearly a valk mold there is less of a gap on the flippy champ then her other discs. Sounds like they know a little something about this already.

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

You are welcome! That's so cool that your wife has a sponsorship, congrats to her! Innova is probably extremely aware of this. I imagine it is even a point of contention when Discmania for example is having to deal with poor consistency of their PD2s(I'm assuming, have not tested PD2s). '

The mini stamped star destroyers are in a category of their own when it comes to the major mold deviation from run to run, too.

Great video. The wing example is on point. The bottom plate is just a filler and can be changed around. The molds are 3-piece (top-plate/bottom-wing/bottom-plate).

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I wish I knew this before making the video. You can see the 2 different parting seams of the mold and that verifies the 3 piece mold as you say.

Very interesting video, definitely going to do some research myself on this

This is a more organized study than most colleges do. AND HE REALIZED A MISTAKE AND STARTED OVER. That is true honest science. Excellent video. I've always wanted to know which features of a disc provide the physics for different aspects of how the disc flies. Ex. Dome= longer flight. So does that depth of the rim that you are measuring equate to stability? Maybe not ALL of the factors that effect stability but one of them?

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

This comment made me smile all day! Thanks for the kind words. I think all the shape factors effect multiple aspects of flight. I really am not close to grasping all the dynamics. I just know that on Destroyers the bottom of the wing is a huge and easily identifiable factor in stability.

Love this. Wish I would have seen this sooner. What's so wild is that my PFN Destroyers are pretty overstable. My Proto Star *D looks to fly like your PFN Destroyer. My favorites to find are the ones in the middle ground and this is going to help me greatly!

Would love to see a comparison of PLHs (parting line heights) of those discs as well. Thanks for the video. I appreciate the work you did.

@matthewhardman6139

5 жыл бұрын

The parting line height it what causes that gap. You can see it change when he switches pictures.

This is incredible! THANK YOU!

Oh boy .. this was such a revelation for me. Thanks. I had to do some testing today with my in-bag destroyers, and discarded destroyers. I have 2 champ and 1 star 4x that are total meathooks and have to be thrown at severe anny to hold any form of line - correlated perfectly with your testing of the rim with the rivet. My other star and one champion fly exactly the way theyre supposed to. In addition i have a Scorpius that also flies perfectly - i suspect this to be from the same mold, or from a blueprint copy of the destroyer mold. I have a weak arm, so this reassured me that discarding the meathooks were the right decision. I struggle to throw them further than 150 feet. The others i max out easily (350 feet, my max distance). Again, thanks. Fantastic work!

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

You are welcome! I'm glad this information is helping you!

DG forensics! You geeked so hard on this and I love it. I think this is a huge problem for the manufacturers though. On one end of the spectrum, they're not even Destroyers anymore. Just call it something else already.

This is such a good video. Totally backs up my experience with my two destroyers. Champion way flatter, more understable. Mcbeth Star much more scooped and a total meathook.

Thanks for the work you put into this video. I've recently started purchasing Destroyers and the first two are 4X and completely useless for distance. I just picked up a 145 and 166 Wysocki and they aren't even close to being the same disc. I pulled them out during the rivet portion of the video and they aren't even close to being the same disc. The 4x has the huge gap and the Wysocki versions are flat. One Wysocki has Made in the USA, the other does not and they are slightly different in angle as well. I can see both of those in my bag, so much more distance. I can't wait to actually measure to see how drastic they are yardage.

My man!!! That's some A+ analytics right there! Finally explains why my 2-line AJ and embossed F2 have nearly identical PLH, but undeniably different flight patterns. I would just add one thing....if I may: If it's a beefy Destroyer anyone's after, just get a PD2 or Xcal. It's really not worth the time and money. Especially if buying online is your only option. Other than that, I'm cool with the variations; (currently bagging 3).

Wow dude!! Great job. I knew I’ve had irreplaceable discs before.. not only for the memories, but those ones that will never fly like the OG

Thank you so much for this video , I was looking to buy a Ricky destroyer, so that’s really informative and will gauge my purchase

You sir, are the first disc golf scientist I've come across. I really enjoy your content.

@DothSavek

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! I appreciate the compliment

What would be helpful, and possibly even a selling point for any manufacturer that chooses to incorporate this feature, would be to have a "MOLD NUMBER" stamp added to the disc, allowing for more consistency when consumers make purchases. The consumer would maybe gain from that consistency, one less variable,,,, as we have found there are many variables to consider; i.e. plastics, cool times, humidity at time of production, colorants, etc....

I just checked the 3 Star Destroyers I have sitting on my desk and 2 of them have the grind marks. One looks like the same 3 grind block and the other is the 4 grind block. Same exact pattern. The third is a halo cfr and does not have any grind block marking. (New mold???) I'll check my 4x McBeth later. I also have worked in injection molding and what you were saying about gravity and not letting the plastic set before cooling makes a ton of sense. This is so awesome.

* found this absolutely fascinating . . . i was a bit harsh commenting on your last video - [bag review] - the first one i've viewed by you. bad day, & i had a few beers . . . just wanted to say - job well done !

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Loved this video, thank you and keep it up cheers!

Great vid. Issues brought up in this video are actually why I don’t throw much innova. I throw discs I find to be very consistently molded, and it didn’t take me long to realize innova can be all over the place I was somewhat aware of this problem and I have always wondered why people went after these “rare” destroyers instead of using more understable molds with similar hand feel.

Just bought my first Ricky Wysocki Star Destroyer. I'm only a year in to disc golf and knew different plastics fly differently, but had no idea there were so many variances in the same disc molds! I'll have to check mine out and hope I got lucky.

this is some of the best disc golf info ive ever seen and ive been playing for 15+ years

@DothSavek

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I sure wish I had known about this earlier. Would have saved me plenty of confusion

@aretonsenner6664

2 жыл бұрын

2 days ago i got a live stream in my recommended of your sasquatch review and thought id listen to you while at work. I really enjoyed the stream and how detailed you were so i subscribed because im looking for a new bag soon and figured this was right on time. i watched quite a few of your videos over the last couple of days and was just recommended this video and got a good laugh when i saw this comment above. helped me find a handful of great destroyers and now 2 years later helping me find a great bag. im subscribed now keep up the awesome work man.

Very informative information. Nice job!

This is the best @innova video ever made. Thank you.

This was a great video man thank you!

Thank you soo much. I couldnt find any overstable destroyers, but now i know why! I found a beautiful poptop that acted almost like an x-cal, but on my second round with it, it kicked into a swamp...😭. Thank yiu for the new info

Like your methodological approach, subbed

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

This is crazy! You should be a detective. Such good information. Thank you!!

You need to check rim width also. I have found variation in the beast. Older disc have a slightly narrower rim and for me fly stable at weights of 165-167. Newer discs have a slightly wider rim and fly very over stable at weights 140 and above. I am using the blizzard plastic.

Great video! Side note so dope that you rollerblade too

certain older westside giants have the pre-flight destroyer flight to them.

nice roller wearhouse shirt og

Crazy!!! Thanks for the info

Thanks! This explains why my DX Destroyer flies so much different than my Star Destroyer.

I LOVE my destroyers. I was given one as a joke because I did not have the arm to control it at all. For my first year with it it was just a funny dirt dart. It was always hilarious to watch it turnover and then just dive bomb the turf. But since then I've learned how to throw it and it's one of my go-to's on every outing. My Destroyer is one of the few discs that I instantly replace upon losing or damaging it. It's interesting to see that me learning how to throw it could just be me finding a destroyer shape that matches my arm. Now I need to go check my bag since I have two separate destroyers in there.

Great video, what a treat. Your dog is excellent too!

I am blown away right now. Shocked.

Very helpful, thank you!

The line following 6:22 made me giggle. Otherwise, doing some great work here!

Fantastic work. I really appreciate your attention to detail. Especially after you realized there was a difference from one side of the disc to the other, scrapped your data, and started again with 3 measurements per disc. Inconsistent from run to run, inconsistent within the same batch, and even inconsistent within the same disc from one end to the other. Yeah that bubble on the one side of the wing is possible a tip-off. Also- the 3 grind block vs 4 grind block somehow felt like an "Ah-Ha!" moment in a crime drama! Now Ive gotta check mine out of curiosity. Someone commented about how higher PLH means more overstability. Yes, generally true but I imagine the PLH to be the same among all Destroyers. This video is about the shape of the wing itself and how it varies drastically among Destroyers. Specifically that the deeper the concavity, the more overstable the flight with early and dumpy fade.. If the wing is flat like a board, Doth Savek finds it flies more understable and much much FURTHER for him. 330 ish vs 450. 450' is a crush man!

@DothSavek

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the comments! Yes 450 is very good for me. The down side is that now there is video proof of 450 being my limit I can no longer brag about throwing 600ft like everyone else on the internet haha.

@johnschwan7894

5 жыл бұрын

@@DothSavek Haha. If you can throw 450 on a cold day, I believe you prob throw 500 in the summer when you're all warmed up. The trick is to have a known reference and a dude on zoom, and of course your trusty old white PFN Destroyer. As a side note, I max out now at 380-400, and I think 450 is the next milestone. I prob wont get there as Im 42 already.

This seems like a sure fire way of measuring PLH - something I’ve given up on. From now on I’ll be much more able to cherry pick my west side Worlds.

I bought two Discmania DDX discs last summer. I definitely noticed that even tho the two were visually identical, the other one was consistently more understable than the other. So i marked the more understable one with a marker. Now after seeing this video, i compared the wings with a straight rivet and noticed the more understable one has way less curve in the wing. Then i checked both of my Discmania PD2s. They both fly pretty equal to each other, so i only carry one of them at a time. And again i checked the wing and they are pretty much identical. I also noticed they both have that 100% identical 4 grind block "fingerprint" in the bottom. So most likely PD2 uses the Destroyer bottom mold. My only Destroyer is a 4x PMB Star Destroyer, with pretty curvy wing and it's a 3 grind block one. And it's pretty overstable and was hard to turn over when it was brand new.

bar none the definitive review of a disc ever made. very educational about this disc and by proxy, all discs.

well done. I have a 2 line Avery that I always thought had a weird distribution of material in the rim. After doing the rivet test it all made sense! inconsequently its one of my longest bombers 😝