I went to a dinner in Seattle around 2003 where Marv Rosenthal was the speaker. Up until that point I was devoutly pre-trib. He made me think. 20 years later, I'm still convinced that WE ARE the tribulation saints. Exact timing isn't a great concern for me personally...just preparing people to overcome and endure. Thank you all at FAI for the words of encouragement. I frequently recommend your ministry.

@jacquiej5330

9 ай бұрын

AOC Network has a really exciting video of the 2 witnesses being Holy Spirit filled believers !

@julianaallen8477

9 ай бұрын

​@@jacquiej5330I LOVE AOC NETWORK! ❤

@shirazisit

9 ай бұрын

I believe I was also at that dinner? I think Marv had an earlier dinner in the 90s, which I also attended. I've read many of the authors Joel talked about and Joel and I are within the same "chapter" 😊 We've had Joel 3 times to Kent Calvary Chapel South over the last years. Talked about a 4th time next year. We'll see how things play out...

@ginayedinak6036

9 ай бұрын

​@@jacquiej5330I have to watch that! Do you happen to know the name? They have a lot of resources!

@wjdyr6261

9 ай бұрын

Because we are the tribulation saints

Pre-trib does definitely hamstring members of the church who go with its doctrine. It doesn't prepare for hardship and endurance...it's simply a mechanism for an escapist mindset. So that when it is evident the tribulation has begun, there was no preparation of heart, soul, mind, or strength for hardship. It doesn't help expel the fear of death from the mind. It doesn't even help cultivate the type of patience and humility that God is looking for in His followers. A big result of it can be that churches stay in their own bubble and comfort zones, neglecting the true mission of discipleship. We must certainly be prepared to face hardship, days without food, being hunted down, being hated by everyone, being mistreated and beaten. These are elements captured in Romans 8. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love us anymore because nothing can separate us from His love. Look at the disciples and how they were treated and eventually killed. John being the only disciple who died a peaceful death after a long life, well after being placed in a barrel of oil that was lit on fire but didn't kill him. All that said, Revelation 12:11 and 13:10 give us some pretty large glimpses into what we, the people of God, will need to have set in our hearts and minds. We defeat the accuser by the blood of the Lamb, the word of our testimonies, AND the fact that we don't love our lives so much that we are afraid to die. This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful. True freedom in the Spirit involves being freed from the power of death. Part of the power of death is the fear of death. Moreover, the fear of pain. How is anyone prepared to lay down their life, if that is the calling at that time, if they are so hard-set on escaping the tribulation without giving it any more thought? We can HOPE for the best, but we should PREPARE for the worst. Just food for thought. Love you all!

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

I agree. We need to have a martyr mentality and be willing to not only live for Christ but to suffer and die for Him, if or when it comes to that.We are told to endure hardness and be good soldiers of Jesus Christ.

I truly believe we are in the end. What a blessing to be the generation that gets to see this and witness what is to come!! Maranatha!

@w4tkn

9 ай бұрын

Yes indeed. We weren't there for our Saviour's birthday but to see his return, I think that is an honor other generations might be envious of. Of course, not all believers will survive Daniels 70th week

@ArmyScoutMom

9 ай бұрын

​@@w4tkn uh, yeah, that small detail... Lol. I just ask God to give me strength to endure. 🙏

I read just the title of this to my 12th graders and it sparked one of the best conversations of the school year. There is hope for Gen. Z. They are not pretrib at all. They never settled on pre wrath or post trib just that we need to be about sharing the "love and hope" of Jesus in a way that is urgent.

@mail2ajm

9 ай бұрын

They need truth from scripture and the Holy Spirit. It is encouraging to hear they are seeking truth and asking questions.

This is a great presentation. Clarifies nuances around post-trib/pre-wrath, and nails the danger of the unpreparedness of pre-trib.

@jacquiej5330

9 ай бұрын

The strong delusion 🤷🏻‍♀️

@johnfourteensix5398

9 ай бұрын

@@jacquiej5330 part of it, I think. There's also the "aliens/AI are our saviors, and this planet can be redeemed without Jesus Christ." Thank God for calling us out, and giving us eyes to see and ears to hear. ❤️

Thankyou once again Joel!! I’m surrounded by pretribbers,and can’t seem to wake them up! They are so emotionally connected to idea of pretrib! It’s almost like they have connected it to their salvation! It’s great to hear you speak the truth! It’s encouraging in this crazy world! God bless

@johnearle8156

9 ай бұрын

This seems to be so true.

Thanks for the update on your wife. I was wondering how she is doing. Please know I am praying for her and you both. Your ministry has blessed me so much. I found you in the middle of an intense search for understanding coming out of growing up being taught some form of partial preterism. My search for understanding was triggered by an intense dream. I can't overstate enough how much hope in Christ's return has changed my life.

@lavieenrose5954

9 ай бұрын

I’ve embraced preterism and I can never go back. God bless you in your waiting

My dad use to say it’s better to be tribulation ready and rapture surprised then rapture ready and tribulation surprised

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

That's pretty selfish. What happens if the rapture occurs and all those unbelievers around you aren't ready because you told them it wasn't going to happen?! As Christians we should be watching and waiting for pre, mid, and post. That means we should be teaching people that there is a very real possibility that we are going to disappear someday, and if that happens, I want you to know that it was Jesus and not some alien abduction story that the world is going to try to sell you.

@appointedaday-ur6st

9 ай бұрын

@@seanc2788 What in the world are you talking about, How in the world does it change things if you did not say the rapture might not be pretrib, the only thing it teaches is not to ready or be concerned, it festers the attitude of not worried about it, How many times I heard with excitement hey I will be watching from the mezzanines, they usually are not even worried about sin, most are antinomians in fact, Not surprised because along with pretrib the antinomianism is not found in the bible either If on is not pretrib he is preparing his heart as in 1st John 3 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Great mindset!

Very thankful for you Joel, and for FAI and GCM. I sincerely hope that in the coming days, the church in the West can become more aware of what is coming, and that shepherds and leaders would have it revealed to them how critical it is that they prepare their flocks. I will continue to lift your wife and family in prayer, and we all look forward to your next teaching. God bless and Maranatha.

Wow! Im 50 years old and I questioned the rapture as far back as my teen years. I questioned Sunday keeping vs Sabbath keeping too. But I never really allowed myself to say anything or seek teaching until severall years ago. I love my years in the Assembly of Hod church as well. Very solid! But I think they've misses it on the pre-trib rapture. And I feel desperately that if theure wrong, the shock of the unpreparedness will cause a falling away. It terrifies me for them. Thank you for this teaching

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

I agree with all you wrote. They are very accurate on everything except the timing of the rapture which I do not believe is pre trib. The late Robert Van Kampen offers a very compelling argument nullifying a pre trib position.

Your understanding is good Joel. Do not worry what anyone else says have faith in yourself and our Lord ❤

My church is pre, my family is post, I've been prewrath since i first read the bible myself.

@amapola53

9 ай бұрын

I believe in the pretrib rapture 🙏🙏🙏

@dougsmith6346

7 ай бұрын

@@amapola53why so? What verse teaches that?

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

​@@dougsmith6346 The late Robert Van Kampen gives all the Scriptures and offers a very compelling argument for the pre-wrath rapture position.

Just found Zions Hope in recent times I wish I had found them earlier . Such a good sound teaching!!!

I love your presentations. I lean toward pre-wrath. Praying for your you, your wife, family, and FAI

Thanks Joel, humble as always! Blessing to you, your family and wife in particular 🙏 God bless and Maranatha x

Pray for peace for you and your wife to endure, what a hard thing to go through and watch. My sister has TM and is paralyzed from the waist on down. It has been very difficult but she has hope in the Lord.

It amazes me how the Father gives a nugget of truth to His servants. I too have done a lot of "research" and come to my own conclusions. We need humility, revelation and much much digging into Scripture n religious history. Your wife has been making small improvements? Yehovah is good n merciful.

My friend and I decided to study Marvin Rosenthal's "pre-wrath rapture" quite a few years ago. Pre- trib just didn't make sense. I can never be pre- trib again. I believe God will use me as things unfold to encourage the church that Christ has not forsaken us. This was a good talk. Thank you.

@user-os9in9pe1p

9 ай бұрын

Post Tribulation is the one that doesn't make any sense. 😊

@jeffm8423

9 ай бұрын

@@user-os9in9pe1p. How so?

@floppyice3453

9 ай бұрын

Much needed series! Excellent. Check out Brics on Jan. 26, 2024 there will be 6 more officially joining. Then there will be 11 horns/kings. Saudi Arabia will then be 1 of the 11, among others I don't recall. Any bets on how long after that, there will be only 10 horns? Do a teaching on that please. God bless

@JAAB9296

9 ай бұрын

@@user-os9in9pe1p I can't say that you are right or wrong. Maybe someday soon, your eyes will be opened to the truth. And no, I'm not dogmatic regarding the Post Tribulation Rapture, I lean towards a Pre-Rath interpretation.

@user-os9in9pe1p

9 ай бұрын

@@JAAB9296 M Eyes Have Been Open For 60 Years. I'm Good. I Know My Lord Jesus!

Thank you for being humble and admitting that you may not know everything. The Scriptures may not make sense until we are in that time period as prophecy becomes unsealed. We need to follow the Lamb wherever He goes! And, not to turn on one another.

Great teaching, Joel! Can't wait for next one! Thank you for taking the time to explain these things, brother. 😊

The book HARPAZO by Jacob prasch Moriel ministries is very good & detailed for in depth study on the rapture timing matter… the problem I run into with pretrib believers is they don’t want to hear anything that challenges their reliance on a pre-trib. Great presentation… thanks & blessings to you & your wife

I have read some studies of both sides but I have read and studied the book Marvin Rosenthal and Allen have wrote and find both are worth keeping and reading over and over. Joel thank you so much for the blessing you are to the body of Christ! God continue to bless Amy and her health.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

The late Robert Van Kampen is the most compelling voice I've ever heard for a pre wrath rapture. Research his material and listen to him online.

Thank you for all that you teach. I just paused this to pray for your wife. Jesus said all things are possible with God. God bless you and your family. 💙🙏💙

They can’t seem to separate that the tribulation and wrath are two different things. It’s perfectly clear in the Bible. I always wondered how your wife was doing Joel, I just didn’t want to offend by asking. You and your family will be in my prayers tonight.

@squirreljones3595

9 ай бұрын

Two resurrections John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times The church rapture is at judgement day Revelation 21 New earth no more days

This was excellent. I wrestle with the timing of rapture, but am leaning towards the end of all of it. Plus many thanks for shout out to Marv Rosenthal. In early nineties he gave voice to what I felt. He was at my cousins church, very small rural, for a week speaking to all these things. A gentleman in every sense of the word..

@bradmyers7109

9 ай бұрын

@southgatekid53thatsall80 Will Marv Rosenthal be one in the large crowd in heaven in Rev 7?

Praying for your brothers

Totally agree with your main point, the negating of Jesus warnings as “not for the church” is a real mind blower once you see it for the danger it is (modern pre trib).

Responded to a pretribber who challenged posttrib and pre wrath to show the rapture at the end. I quoted Matt 24:29-31 and compared to Rev 6 as well as 2 Thes 2. His response was, that’s not the rapture because the elect gathered aren’t “caught up” and those elect are “tribulation saints”. A rather poor argument since the word harpazo isn’t used in some of their other rapture “proof texts”. I had others respond to me asking if I’m even saved and only those who want to believe false teaching would reject the pretrib rapture. Just goes to show the bullying tactics some pretribbers feel the need to use to validate their belief.

@michellebehr7669

9 ай бұрын

Some are saying salvation now is by grace and salvation in the Tribulation is by works. They cite dispensation as the reasoning

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen. He offers a very compelling argument nullifying a pre trib rapture!

One thing I really appreciate about post trip and pre wrath folks is we debate and discuss andexchange ideas on scripture, not on tradition, not a syatem that has been taught and not in an emotional manner, meaning we don't cling to oh well, God says we shall not end your wrath and the passages about or excuse me one of the passages about a thief in the night and use that and slap it over every other thing, even though when we read those texts even when we see that understanding does not carry ao mich weight. I really enjoy peaceful and productive discussion so pre-wrath and post trib can have this, where as Pre-tribbers are not so keen to discuss.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen. He offers the most compelling argument I've ever heard on a pre wrath rapture!

Pretribs are like the parable of the sower :) Matthew 13:18-21 niv 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Another great teaching.

1st Thessalonians 5-9 "For God did not appoint us to suffer WRATH but to receive SALVATION through our LORD JESUS Christ."

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

We are not appointed to the wrath of God but we are subject to the wrath of man.. The tribulation is the Anti Christ's wrath. The Day of the Lord which comes after the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God. The late Robert Van Kampen offers the best detailed explanation I've ever heard.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statements here. I've had a similar journey and have ended up in the same place. So, I'm so looking forward to your upcoming videos. Thanks for the book recommendations. Unfortunately, I purchased the audio book version of Mr. Kirschner's book. I say unfortunately, because I knew I wasn't an auditory learner, but I was being cheap and I had some Amazon points, so I got it for "free". At any rate b/c I'm not an auditory learner, I keep falling asleep while listening to it🤦🏽‍♀️. So, I think I'm going to have to get a hard copy. Thanks again for the info though. I'm sure it will be great when I can manage to actually read it 😄.

My question to Pre-Trib camp is that if the dead in Christ rise first and this happens at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation, then when do the martyred Saints get resurrected? There is only one rapture.

On the edge of my seat...

On the topic of the trumpets I think is not necessarily the wrath, I think these are judgment but not for destroy, but for conversion and salvation, because the judgment is for repent, and it only affect a 1/3 not the whole world like in the bowls. God always bring judgment not only for unbelivers, Israel is the main example, how God send them to Babylon as a judgment for their sins. I also remember on the book of Peter that says the judgment must begin with the House of God, something like that I don't remember the verse. So I think we are here to see the trumpets and at 7th is the rapture, but you are right that the must important things is to be agreed that we are NOT pre-trib, after that, any position may be correct, Blessings!

I stopped using their labels, because they obfuscate... I've begun to use "Daniel's 70th week" because everyone is using the same 7 year time period. I use the word "Persecution" in place of the word "Tribulation" I think these minor adjustments bring clarity to the discussion.

Thank you Joel. First, I think Dr. Michael Brown may be a good, classic "Post-Tribulation" person to talk to. Also, thanks for your honesty about where you land along with your uncertainties. I am really seeing the errors of pre-tribulationism over the last few months and I am trying to find the truth, which will be biblical and directly supported by Scripture. I looking for a firm place to land and will need to de-program myself of reading the Bible with the pre-tribulation system/lens. Thanks for the series...it took me a while to warm to a position that was contrary to pre-trib and I'm glad you have put this series out. May God bless you and the ministry efforts, Joel!

Joel - another well done and appreciated video. Praying for your trip to Saudi.

Wise words!

Maranatha ❤

Yhanks Joel from western N.C.

Have you heard Joe Schimmel's position? It's also a hybrid between prewrath & postrib. He says that the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl end at the same place. 😊 It would be interesting to hear all of you discuss this! 🙏 Thanks again for this series!!

@koalabear19

9 ай бұрын

Dalton spoke on this in the book of Revelation study on FAI. He states they are different due to the fact they are similar in nature, but magnifying in intensity from seals to trumpets to bowls. It's hard to fully reject your stance however when we read Matthew 24 when it all seems to collide very closely with the sun darkening, etc and the saints being gathered. I think it's very safe to say however that the absolute earliest possible time of the rapture is the 6th seal

@bradmyers7109

9 ай бұрын

Joe does not believe that Matt 24;29-31 takes place before the first trumpet judgement in Rev 8?

@HappyHolyHealthyLife

9 ай бұрын

@bradmyers7109 If you search "The Sixth Seal and The Day of The Lord" part 1-3 by Blessed Hope Chapel, Joe Schimmel explains his position in depth. It is similar to Irvin Baxter's and David Pawson's position. They believe that there is some overlap between the seals, trumpets, and bowls and that they end at the same place. It's almost like the second coming narrative is being described multiple times from different angles, and the Revelation 14 harvests are yet another picture of the 2nd Coming. It's a bit hard to explain, but I'm leaning in that direction. I would always wonder why the 6th seal, 7th Trumpet and Revelation 14 harvest, and Revelation 19 all looked like a description of the 2nd Coming, and the recapitulation view answered that for me. 😊

@5slabs

9 ай бұрын

@HappyHolyHealthyLife that sounds like the view I take. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are mostly sequential, but the 6th seal and 7th trumpet and 7th bowl conclude at the same time. It's also referred to as the successive, final view. I believe the day of the Lord is the second coming at the end of the great tribulation, which lasts 3 and 1/2 years, unlike prewrath believes.

@HappyHolyHealthyLife

9 ай бұрын

@5slabs Interesting! Do you know of any other teachers or authors who explain this?

He suffered for us, we all have sinned so we should be willing to do the same for him. Pre trib would be great but willing to endure

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Watch the late Robert Van Kampen. He offers a very compelling argument for a pre wrath rapture -- the best I've ever heard!

Me too Joel. After watching Left Behind and reading Tim LaHayes book on it, as a new believer something inside of me told me otherwise. I then began a study and couldn't reconcile what LaHaye was teaching with all the contradictory verses on God's Word.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out the late Robert Van Kampen. He offers the most compelling argument I've ever heard for a pre wrath rapture.

Safe travels!!

I love your respect to those you disagree with. How's it feel to be an elder wise example ;)

I grew up hearing mid trib. But when I studied the words of Jesus in Matthew 24, I became convinced that we will see most, if not all, of the 70th week of Daniel. In this world you will have tribulation, but take heart, I have overcome the world - Jesus. It is better to be prepared for the worst. A great falling away will occur precisely due to the pre trib teaching. Just wait to see how many people freak when they see the antichrist in the temple, then the 2 witnesses burning people up with fire from their mouths. And may will die during that time...upwards of 1/2 the population if not more.

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

You will if you are living in Judea. Jesus doesn't mention the USA in Matthew 24. Only that there is a world war going on. I can't imagine a war between USA and China is going to end well for most of the world. But somehow Israel will not be affected by that.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen's compelling argument on this topic. It's the best I've ever heard!

I don’t follow men I follow the Bible. But I believe from the Bible that the rapture happens after the tribulation and before the last 7 bowls/vials are poured out by the angels. Which is Gods wrath being poured out. The tribulation is not Gods wrath. Tribulation and Wrath are not the same thing, as most pretribbers think.

Are there any major prophetic events that still have to happen before the beginning of the final 7 years? Also, Joel - will you expand on what you said about details that are happening on the ground right now in the Middle East, that line up with what Daniel said? I feel like it's important for people to be able to see the things you are seeing, in order to really understand the time we are living in.

@svenshanah

9 ай бұрын

Obviously I can't speak for Joel, but I would assume these are the finer points he said that he's going to cover in the coming teachings he spoke about doing next (🤷‍♂) I "think" I probably know what he's talking about, but I look forward to hearing him expound on them as well.👍🏻

@janeylynn5934

9 ай бұрын

@@svenshanah I hope that is true. It seems like Joel usually doesn't mention specific details about current events, but keeps things more general. I know that one has to be cautious about saying "this is that" when it comes to saying that certain current events are fulfilling biblical prophecy, but I also think it would be good for people to be informed about how current events might be fulfilling prophecy, since we are getting so close.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Watch the late Robert Van Kampen. He will answer all your questions.

This matter seems more important the closer we approach Christ's return. The signs seem to indicate it's getting closer to the end of the Age.

I hold to pre wrath, but honestly I believe most Christians who don't fall away will be martyred and the rapture will be right before God pours out His Wrath on the Earth.. but most of us will be killed by then anyway. When I realized that this may very well be the case. I didn't care to argue with people about this topic anymore.

Thank you, Joel, for your dedication to the TRUTH above all else. Your wisdom in these matters is truly inspiring. May God give you the strength to carry on during the days of turmoil of which we may be entering very soon (who knows, with the Hamas attack on Israel today coming exactly 7 years before Yom Kippur 2030, we may have just entered the 70th week). I know you dislike timeline charts and the faithful attempting to pick a day of the rapture, so I apologize for my comments to follow (I promise, I'm not attempting to pick a day). I too believe in the pre-wrath rapture. And it's clear that you and Dalton hold somewhat different views on the sequential nature of the seals/trumpets/bowls judgments. And it is also clear, as you forcefully explain in this video, that it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things as long as we are prepared to endure to the end, come what may. I assume that in your studies there are those that argue the 6th seal and the 7th bowl are describing the same event, which seems likely since it's difficult to conceive of every island fleeing and the mountains disappearing at two separate times. If they are describing the same events, and this is the ultimate wrath of God being poured out on rebellious mankind, and if we are not destined to this wrath, it seems probable that the resurrection of the dead and the catching up of the saints occurs at the 7th trumpet, as I believe you have posited in your videos on the rapture. Now to the part you may disapprove of: if the bowls are sequential and follow the trumpets, and if we are raptured and resurrected prior to the bowls, it seems that the bowl judgments must occur very rapidly since people cannot live long without fresh water, which will be turned into blood at the 3rd bowl judgment. If the bowls are sequential, it seems probable that the 4th through 7th bowls must occur within a few days before the final battle of Armageddon. Consider the following possibility: The Lord descends from Heaven at the 7th trumpet, and he harvests the righteous (through resurrection and rapture) from the Earth. Maybe it even occurs sometime during the 48-hour period on the Feast of Trumpets. Since it occurs over a three-day period, we avoid the no one knows the hour or the day problem. Then we come with him as his saints and with his angels to Sinai, as you teach. Then, over the next 7-10 days, we march with him North doing battle at the same time his bowls of wrath are being poured out on the earth. Finally, he destroys the Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). Thanks, again, for your teachings. You are an inspiration to us lay brothers and sisters in Christ. I look forward to each of your videos. The peace of our Almighty God be with you and your family, now and forever. MARANATHA!!!

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!

you're absolutely right regarding the differences between Pre-wrath and Post-trib being largely semantic and just nerding out over scripture I mean I enjoy that sort of thing but there's no pastoral problems in either position because both anticipate possibly being martyred during the war on the saints, and both will not have the trumpets and bowls targeting believers. Pre-wrath will say we're in heaven at that time, and post trib will employ the Goshen principle (although I think that's a bit of a tougher sell as in Goshen the Hebrews were in a localized area where during the 70th week believers will be all over Earth, can't just protect one area from all the water turning to blood). But it is largely semantic.

In some sense it seems clear that God did not want to reveal unto His servants actual dates or even explicit chronology of all end-times events as if reporting the evening news as that would give principalities that same information as well. They are likely puzzling at the rapture timing just like we are, and that is a good thing I think. God wanted simply to "show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass." Rev 1:1

Excellent & much needed series. How many will lose their faith after they notice a pre trib rapture didn't happen? Counting all variations along with the regular labels, I counted 22 rapture views from no rapture to preterism, etc. Please do a teaching on the 10 horns/kings. On Jan. 26th, 2024, BRICS will officially add 6 more nations= 11 horns. Any bets on how long it will take until there are only 10? The only nation I remember being added on Jan.26 is Saudi Arabia.😮

This all depends on where you place the tribulation period and the wrath period. When does the tribulation period begin and when does it end? When does the wrath of God begin and when does it end? Does the Tribulation period last the whole 7 years? Or does it begin when the abomination of desolation is seen in the temple, which is in the middle of those 7 years? When does the wrath of God begin? Does it start at the beginning of those 7 years? Or does it begin when the 6th seal is opened?

@PatriciaRodriguez-zv1cx

9 ай бұрын

Rev.6: 16 , 17 for the great day of his wrath has come and who is able to stand .

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

That depends on whether you believe that the 70th week of Daniel is yet to come. It also depends on whether you believe a "week" in Daniel's dream is equal to a 7 year time period. You can test this by calculating the time span from Nehemiah 2:1, when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem went forth until the time that the Messiah was "cut off" was exactly 69 weeks x 7 years for each week. That is 483 years or exactly 173,880 days (or 360x483). So that probably means that the 70th week is going to be a 7 year period as well. Now how do we know that there is a gap in Daniel's dream of 70 weeks between Christ's first coming and the beginning of the Tribulation? We have to go to Ezekiel chapter 4 where God prophecies through Ezekiel about the time that he is to bear Israel's sin. God told Ezekiel to lay on his right side for 40 days, and his left side for 390 days. Each day was given a year, originally, however, due to the disobedience of Israel God multiplied that time. They ended up with 2,520 years of servitude to God. When they paid off their debt to God they became a nation again in 1948. That is when the fig tree bloomed. So when does the time of Jacob's Trouble begin? That is the Tribulation. It is a 7 year period (the 70th week of Daniel). The first 3.5 years is really no Tribulation for Israel at all. They are at peace with their neighbors and living securely in their land. But at the mid-point of the 7 years, the Anti-Christ breaks the peace treaty, he commits the abomination of desolation, and then begins to hunt down and kill the Jewish people. That's when the real trouble for them starts. God's wrath is never for the Jews or the Christians, it is for the wicked people following Satan. Unfortunately there are still Jews and Christians on the earth during the second half of the Tribulation. We know that God supernaturally protects a remnant of Jews (one third to be exact) during this time, so that his promises to Abraham and David can be fulfilled during the Millennial reign. God's wrath however, starts with Jesus opening the first seal (Revelation chapter 6) and all the 21 judgments are directed by Him. So basically he is pouring out the wrath of God on the earth for 7 years.

When one READS scripture Rev 20:4-6 NO DENYING post. BUT if you ''listen"" only to pre trib teachers no denying Pre.

Hey Joel. Joseph Schimmel of Good Fight Ministries is a hard core post trib preacher that does care about the difference between Prewrath and posttrib. If you could get him to discuss the differences that would be great.Maranatha!

@dougsmith6346

7 ай бұрын

Joel interviewed him

@Matt24_

7 ай бұрын

@@dougsmith6346 yes, a week after this comment. 😊

I believe John Piper is post trib! Could be worth inviting him to talk about it

Kent Hovind is a prominent post-trib/pre-wrath pastor! He has an excellent book entitled "WOE- WHAT On Earth Is Happening" and a very informative chart showing all the supporting KJV Bible verses with all the timelines! His best guess is 2028, but he is not dogmatic about the timing, just to be prepared all the time! He is also a good debater with more than 300 victories under his belt!

@bryanrivera-rivera1317

9 ай бұрын

2028 seems far too soon. Egypt, Assyria, the Kings of the North and South, Babylon the Great, etc. are not in place. How can Antichrist take the riches of Egypt if they aren't a major player in the world economy? How can the Abomination of Desolation happen without the final King of the North who is preceded by many others? The world is not ruled by monarchs in our day. And the Bible seems to say they are royal blooded kings, not current leaders. The End Times are closer than any other time, but it could happen a thousand years from now. But it can't be TOO soon. Too much has to happen. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see Jesus returning until past 2075 or even into the next century.

Thought about this also..."If you are wrong..." apostasy triggered. Every doctrine has a consequence...this is why Yeshua teaches about wolves among sheep and Paul warns about false teachers (intentional or unintentonal, misguided) and that our trust is always with the LORD

I agree with post trib…simply bc I have the 10th grade reading comprehension level needed to read the text. Hah. Sad the church is divided even on this…but it points to why the two witnesses have to come to the church that has fallen away-to reorganize the people and prepare them for Christ. It’s going to be hella scary and awesome-Christianity is major screwed up now more than ever. They will need that fear of God put back in them by the last 2 great preachers It’s a ridiculous conversation bc the FIRST resurrection happens in revelation 20 after satan is bound…we won’t precede those who are asleep in Christ according to Paul…so if that’s the first resurrection after satan is bound…the only other resurrection happens after the 1000 years-that’s the resurrection of the damned..what are people even talking about?

Joel, I hope you will read this. The late Bible teacher, David Pawson, held on to post tribulation rapture view. Have you seen a video on this?

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen

I’m a little confused on pre wrath vs post trib. Aren’t they basically almost one follows immediately after the other? I see it as a dash - between two words. On one side of the dash is the end of the trib and the other side of the dash is Gods wrath. Isn’t the time between each very short? Or are there events that specifically take place in between the trib and Gods wrath that people pick as being post trib or pre wrath belief? I guess I describe myself as post trib/pre wrath assuming they are nearly instant between those two major events of trib and Gods wrath. (I’m only 8 minutes in and maybe you answer this. I’ve always wondered this, this whole series has been a great learning)

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!!

@dudleygordon6191

3 ай бұрын

Prewrath: the rapture happens in the clouds, Jesus takes the saints to heaven for judgment and marriage, then comes a second time to the earth from heaven!

Respecting your views and points. Joel the only difficulty I see is how do you explain the restrainer being taken away before his (Antichrist) revealing As to your interpretation of who or what is your definition of the restrainer? 😀🙏☝️

@MementoMori395

9 ай бұрын

Can't speak for Joel, but Michael the ArchAngel is most prewrathers guess. Because he is not on Earth at the time of the midpoint. We see him and the other Angels fighting a war in Heaven, pushing Lucifer out of Heaven forever. It's when Lucifer gets defeated by Michael does, his true rage begin and his true understanding that he only has a short time left.

Thank you for this teaching! Would you have any notes available?

@FAISTUDIOS

9 ай бұрын

Yep head to https//fai.online/mgbs

Assemblies of God? I won't hold it against you! 😊 We all come from somewhere ex Catholic here by inheritance ✋️ In Yeshua by choice. I hold to the belief there are authentic n false followers of Jesus in most churches...He knows!❤

Surprised you did not mention Chris White he has done some amazing work on this

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!!,

Watch before the wrath

We are so far from the truth. This is not going to be good for us.

@Kittensforchrist

9 ай бұрын

Exactly

New here. Is all of FAI pre wrath? What does Dalton believe?

I often wonder if the hard belief in a pre-trib rapture could cause the great falling away if it doesn't happen...Not saying it's true it's just where my mind goes sometimes.

@MementoMori395

9 ай бұрын

Some prewrathers 'might' claim that, but not me. I don't think that people who get the timing wrong are part of the falling away. I think that is talking about the Israelis. 2 Thessalonians 2.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Take note of the word AND tying the falling away with Revealing of the AC. This will take place in Jerusalem first. The first people to be around this Abomination will be in Israel. So.... I see it as Jews (a few of them anyways, and Arabs because 20% of Israel is Arab, non-Jews) will take the Mark of the Beast. Once they take it, they can never be saved, that's it. The PreTribers will notice there is not a PreTrib rapture once the peace deal with Israel is signed and the Jews are rebuilding the Jewish Temple. They see those things, see that the Church is still here.... they will then get their mindset right. The only people I think could be harmed by this is unsaved people that are aware of the PreTrib theory. They see a Jewish Temple, and no people disappearing.... it will be hard to convert them.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

I agree!! Watch Robert Van Kampen. He offers a very compelling argument nullifying a pre trib rapture.

@dudleygordon6191

3 ай бұрын

The only difference between the pretrib and Prewrath is: the tribulation! You still have Jesus coming twice! Once to the clouds from heaven and once again to the earth!

The saints of God, resurrected and raptured (a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands), come out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14); before the wrath of God. I believe you can make a case that the "rest of her offspring, who hold to the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus" in Revelation 12:17 are comprised of the unwise virgins in Matthew 25 whom the Bridegroom rejects for not having oil; though they did not build on the foundation (Christ) with gold, silver, and precious gems, their souls will be saved as though going through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). Likewise, Revelation 14:3 "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. 'Yes,' says the Spirit, 'they will rest from their labor, for their deeds follow them!'"

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!

When speaking of the damaging effects to the church in respect to pre-trib theology, have you considered the possibility that the anti-christ may fool pre-tribbers (and others) into following him for fear that they would be “left behind”. It would be the ultimate deception and could cause those without knowledge of Matthew 24: 23-27 to fall prey. These people would receive the mark IN their forehead or right hand (meaning thinking with and working for the anti-christ). Wouldn’t that be unpardonable? Is this simply an over simplification of events?

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

That is biblically inaccurate because the Anti-Christ starts killing Christians by the 5th seal. The mark of the beast doesn't come out until right before the first bowl judgment comes. By then 60% of the population of the planet is dead. So the only people who are left taking the mark of the beast are geographically centered around the middle east and the kings of the east. When you read Revelation chapter 19, those are the prominent territories in the world that are left. China converges on Israel in the end and God wipes out what is left of their coalition of armies.

Hi Joel Agreed the 6th seal seems right. But 1 Cor 15:52 … at the last trumpet, this sounds at least on the surface like the 7th trumpet. The trumpet blasts sound like wrath, the bowls are named bowls of wrath. To say the least this does not appear to be compatible. Can you please address this as best as you can, as I haven’t been able to reconcile it.

@w4tkn

9 ай бұрын

My understanding which I learned from David Nathan is that "the last Trumpet" is not one of the numbered trumpet judgements but the final sacred assembly, portrayed in the feast of trumpets. It's the calling up. And before the wrath events. Hopefully that helps, or maybe confuses things, lol.

@johnearle8156

9 ай бұрын

@@w4tkn thanks for the input I read somewhere, maybe Carson, that the last trump is last in a series, not necessarily the 7th trumpet. Would be good to see a clearer fit.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!!

The only difference l found was that pre mid & post trib points didn't add up to what the Scriptures actually Say... The Holy Spirit Revealing is Key, especially in these times.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!!

The not appointed to wrath is referring to the Lake of Fire if read in context. Why during the 6th bowl, does Jesus proclaim that he is still coming? I’m like you though on the fact that pre-wrath and postrib isn’t that important because both will prepare.

If by chance prewrath is false doctrine, what advantage does the enemy have in promoting it over Post trib? The only thing I can think of is the people not walking close enough to God to fulfill Psalm 91 during the trumpets and bowls.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!!

I have interacted personally with Alan Kurshner about the pre-wrath view and agree with it, except for the exact timing of the Rapture. A correct understanding of Rev 10-11, 15-16 and related Scriptures like Mat 24:29-31 clearly reveals that the Rapture will occur at the same time the "last plagues of the wrath of God" (Rev 15:1; 16:1) will begin to be be poured out - at the very end of the final seven years, when the seventh and final trumpet blows. Nowhere are the trumpet judgments (Rev 8-9), which will occur during the last 3 1/2 years, referred to as "the wrath of God," which will be poured at the very end of the seven years. In fact, Rev 10 expresses a very clear delineation between the trumpet judgments and the finality and severity of the vials of wrath, which will begin with the sounding of the seventh trumpet at which time it is announced, "there will be no more delay ... the mystery of God [will be] finished (when the seventh trumpet sounds) (Rev 10:6-7).

@benny-yj7pq

9 ай бұрын

You are almost right, but the 7th bowel ends also at His 2.coming (Rev 16:15+17).

@watchmanbob3864

9 ай бұрын

@benny-yj7pq That depends on how you define the "second coming." Is it just one event or many events? Just as Jesus's first coming included all the events from His birth to His ascension, His second coming will include all the events from His coming in the clouds to gather His elect until the final judgment of the unredeemed and casting all His foes into the Lake of Fire. Please notice that the "Battle of Armageddon" to which you refer (Rev 16:15-16) is just one event (the sixth bowl of wrath) in all the events included in Christ's second coming. So, as the Word clearly states (Mat 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27), the second coming of the Lord will begin with His coming in the clouds to gather His elect (the Rapture) and simultaneously beginning to pour out His bowls of wrath on Earth’s unredeemed inhabitants.

@benny-yj7pq

9 ай бұрын

​@@watchmanbob3864 I disagree. Rev 16:15 is His 2.coming with the Rapture and the wrath of God at the same day (Rev 16:17), the day of the LORD, after the 3 1/2 years Great Tribulation. Rev 16:17 is the finish of God's wrath and not the beginning. It is done. Dan 12:7 says, ALL things, that includes the Wrath of God, are finished. Your timing does not agree with the word of God.

@watchmanbob3864

9 ай бұрын

@benny-yj7pq Does Rev 16:15 say anything about the Rapture? Isn't it about when the Lord will return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords with the armies of Heaven to destroy His enemies on the earth (Zec 14;1-3, 12-15; Rev 19:11-21) (at what is called Armageddon in Rev 16:16)? Then, the seventh and last bowl of God's wrath will be poured out after that, finishing off whoever remains of Earth’s unrepentant inhabitants (Rev 16:17). Please go back and read Mat 24:29-31; Rev 10:5-7; 11:15-19; 15:1; and 16:1 carefully, and you will see, very clearly, that the Lord will return in the clouds to gather His elect when the seventh and last Trumpet sounds just as the "last plagues of the wrath of God" begin to be poured out. And all of these events, Including the King's return with the armies of Heaven to destroy His enemies on the earth, are included in His "second coming."

@benny-yj7pq

9 ай бұрын

@@watchmanbob3864 No, Rev 16:15 is His coming for the Saints, the same event as Mat 24:29-31; Rev 6:12-17 and Rev 16:15-20, His 2.coming with the Rapture and the orge wrath of God,we are not appointed . Rev 16:1 comes before 16:15 and the last bowel is at16:17, that is the same day as the Rapture (Luke 17:29+30), including Armageddon. The last day of the Great tribulation ALL things are finished (Dan 12:7). That is after (Greek with the end of) the Great tribulation (Mat 24:29), after the cosmic disturbance, after the great earthquake, the moving of mountains and islands, which are all events of His 2.coming, His parousia (arrival, advent, return). Rev 15:1 in Greek says in the last bowel is the wrath of God completed, because the last bowel is at His 2.coming, when the Lord treads the wine press of the Wrath (orge) of God (Rev 19:15). There is no orge wrath before the end of the Great Tribulation. You have to correct your time frame in revelation.

I thought that the ten kings had to arise before the AC, and that the AC made the "covenant with the many" at the beginning of the final 7 years. If it's true that we could be just a few years away from the final 7 years, then this must not be true. Do the 10 kings and the AC arise at the same time?

@user-hy2du8fg6l

9 ай бұрын

The Six Seals of Revelation 6 may help some, so here are the 6 Seals. Seal 1 - 1066 William the Conqueror (1066 means "chosen one" to some) Seal 2 - 1914 Beginning of World Wars (WWI & WWII) Seal 3 - 1948 Formation of Israel (Land) This is a "joke" to the Lord. Israel is the "body" of Christ" not a piece of land Seal 4 - 2001 Opening of the "bottomless pit" in NYC. The pit was opened releasing "Death" and "Hell". Death is the False Prophet and Hell is Apollyon Seal 5 - 2023 The 1st Resurrection (Rev 20). This will happen by the end of this year. Seal 6 - 2027 The 2nd Death or Judgement (Rev 20). This happens 3 1/2 years after the 1st Resurrection. Hope this will help some, Enoch (Watchman for the Last Generation)

@MementoMori395

9 ай бұрын

You are correct. 10 kings first, because the little horn pushes out three horns. I pair this act with Seal 2, a Great War. And yes the AC will make a covenant in the beginning. The 10 kings might come up a bit first, but regardless, it's very close together, could be the same time. The AC doesn't have true, all power till the midpoint. The first 3.5 years is just him getting to that point.

@user-hy2du8fg6l

9 ай бұрын

@@MementoMori395 We are at midpoint anytime now. Enoch (Prophet) (Watchman for this Last Generation)

How amazing 3 days or so after you post this and Hamas invades Israel. So very significant. So very sad to see the news over the last few days. So much death & barbarism. : ( I believe the stage has been set and your teaching more significant than ever! My prayers for Israel, the hostages, families suffering loss and the innocent ones (non-Hamas) in Gaza.

What happened with William Miller's followers? "The Great Disappoinment". Look it up.

The nouns "Coming" and "Gathering" (2Th 2:1) are singular in all English and Greek texts, hence one "Coming" and one "Gathering". This grammatically excludes any rapture-timing that requires two "Comings," as well as, two "Gatherings". Accordingly, there is only one "Coming" (Mt 24:30) and only one "Gathering" (Mt 24:31).

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen!!

@alanlietzke5738

5 ай бұрын

@@ObeyJesusOurLord Thanks, I listened to a digitized version of a VHS tape on U-Tube, Absolutely amazing, how well he understood "The Day of the LORD", that long ago!! I only heard two small errors: 1) The tares are collected first, before the harvest (Mt 13:30), not after. Since the harvest occurs during "The Day of the LORD", the same day that the present heavens and earth will be burned-up with intense heat (2Pet 3:10-12), we can easily deduce when they are burned. 2) "The Great Tribulation" lasts only 45 days, NOT several years. For this number, compare corresponding events in Mt 24:15-30 with Dan 12:11-13, and do the arithmetic.

Hillsong church is Assembly of God?

Pre-wrath should have its name changed to the 6th seal rapture. This would clarify its placement better. I've noticed the wise words of Solomon have a connection to Revelation 7:9&17. The innumerable multitude, led by a shepherd. 1st Kings 3:7-8. But Solomon wasn't the Son of David God had in mind. He needs to have a name like "Joshua" or "Yeshua" (Numbers 27:15-18, Zechariah 6:11-13). The name of the BRANCH needs to be Joshua or Yeshua. Jeremiah 23:5-6. He leads the people out and brings them in... as a faithful Son of David would, John 10:1-6. He'll be their front guard and rear guard. Exodus 14:19-21, Isaiah 52:10-12. "The Arm of the Lord made bare in the eyes of all the nations." And the earth filled with fear and mourning... Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:15-17, Luke 21:26-27 "Fear and dread will fall on them, they will be still as a stone, until Your people pass over, til Your people pass over whom You have purchased." Exodus 15:16-17 And brings them into the mountain of the Lord's inheritance. Verse 17 Hebrews 12:22-24 "The place which You have made for Your dwelling." Exodus 15:17 John 14, Revelation 7:15 "Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 Who is able to stand? Revelation 6:17 They will be as "Still as a stone, until Your people pass over." Psalm 76:7-9 "The earth feared and was still." Verse 9, the deliverance of all the oppressed of the earth occurs here... with the phrase, "who is able to stand? Who can endure? "I looked and behold, an innumerable multitude of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb." Revelation 7:9 Look at what is described in Psalm 77, 78, and 79 just after this Psalm 76 passage. The Red Sea crossing. Why is God emphasizing this with the end times judgment day? Is this because they are similar? Also Malachi 3:2 Nahum 1:6 Joel 2:11 See the association with the signs in sun, moon, and stars in Joel 2:10. Corresponds with the gathering of the elect and redemption in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28. And of course... Revelation 6:12 - Revelation 7:9.

@koalabear19

9 ай бұрын

Some good passages there thanks. Here are some notes I'm gathering from my own study alongside FAI teachings: Gathering Together (Rapture) of the saints to Jesus - Matthew 24:27-31 [lighting comes from East, so will be coming of the Son of Man, sign of the return of the Lord matches 6th seal, lightning matches 7th trumpet] - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 [gathering at the Lord's return, dead in christ rise first, trumpet call of God] - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 [not gathered unless man of lawlessness comes first, i.e. antichrist] - 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 [behold a mystery, changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet] - Revelation 10:7 [mirrors 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 with the 'mystery' being revealed] - Revelation 11:18 [Dead are judged, rewarding of the Lord's servants and saints, and for unleashing God's wrath on 'those who destroy the earth']

@seasquawker

9 ай бұрын

@koalabear19 What is the rewarding of the servants of the Lord occurring here at the 7th trumpet? Many have presumed we receive our "change" immediately upon the timing of the rapture, but closer look at Scripture suggests we do not receive our change until just before we return with Christ at Armageddon. Revelation 19:8 says the bride of Christ receives their fine linens here, just before Armageddon. Is it possible the rapture precedes us receiving our change be some period of time? The Bible doesn't say the rapture occurs in a twinkling, it says our change occurs in a twinkling and at the last trumpet. Isaiah 52 says that when the arm of the Lord is made bare in the eyes of all the nations, that those who bear the vessels of the Lord will not go out with haste. It will be a display and spectacle seen by all the ungodly. Look also at Isaiah 26:19-21 There's a resurrection here just before the wrath of God commences and the resurrected are told to enter their chambers and hide until the indignation is past. Based upon 1st Thessalonians 4, we know the raptured will be brought with the dead at this time too to meet the Lord in the air. Think of Matthew 25 here. Job in chapter 14 also asks God to hide him until His wrath is past. So, what occurs when and how? I think there is Scriptural support that the resurrection and rapture will be separated by a decent amount of time from the bride receiving her change. According to Revelation 9, there's at least 5 months here in the 5th trumpet separating Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

@koalabear19

9 ай бұрын

@@seasquawker Yes good points, and that might explain the 'blessed is he who waits the 1335 days' in Daniel potentially. We know the antichrist rules for 42 months, which would equal the length of time the 2 witnesses prophecy. The earthquake that hits Jerusalem right after they rise from the dead, is another pointer why I suspect the rapture could be around that time. Revelation doesn't always seem to be chronological when the imagery is concerned also. For instance, Revelation 12 with the woman giving birth is commonly described as Jesus being snatched back up to heaven (though I have yet to study this claim myself). I think Dalton touched on that earlier in the series on Daniel possibly....though could be this series, am not sure. I think there is a lot to learn about the tribulation from Exodus. Even recently, I realized mystery Babylon in revelation 17, 18 sounds very alike what happened in Sodom, when Lot and his family were told to flee the wrath to come on that city.... Revelation puts it 'come out of her my people, so you will not share in her sins'. This is said just before the city will be burned to the ground, never to be inhabited again, a place of sexual immorality to be destroyed..... just like with Sodom; so was Sodom to show us in advance the 'mother of harlots' city? I would suggest it is certainly a possibility. I just follow the Lord's command to perseverance as best I can digging into His word.

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

Or you could just take it all the way back before the 1st seal. I mean Jesus opens both of them, what's the difference?

I’ll be honest , I’m complete lost in what is being said. I’m researching and still am having trouble understanding.

Matt 24:29 says’Immediately after the distress of those days,’ it doesn’t say ‘immediately after the tribulation’. Doesn’t the tribulation period include the cosmic signs and continue until the End, the Day of the Lord?

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

It's also talking to those who are in Judea, if you keep verses 4-35 in context.

@rentlastname2824

9 ай бұрын

@@seanc2788 I just can’t understand how with all the teaching on Daniel’s 70th week, the 42 months, plus all the NT verses putting the resurrection of the saints at the coming of the Lord etc, how there could be any sort of rapture before the End of the Age?

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

@@rentlastname2824 I'm not sure which age you are referring to? I assume the age of grace? That is when the rapture comes. That is the last day of the church of Laodicea. The church of the apostacy which began around 1900AD to the present. It will end at the rapture, and the age of judgment will begin for 7 years. That is when God (through Jesus) opens up the seals 21 months, the trumpets 21 months, and the bowls, 42 months.

@Kittensforchrist

9 ай бұрын

​@@rentlastname2824exactly

Yeshua said in John 14: 2, 3 John 14:2 2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:3 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. clearly this place is not on earth, so his return will be the rapture, is the place the New Jerusalem or is it heaven. This scripture makes me want to believe when he returns we will be with him in heaven because he went away and clearly went to heaven and we will be with him. Is this a wrong interpretation?

AOG, still won't recognize the oneness. Why baptism in Jesus name but teach FSHG baptism. Help me make sure we will not see "one" who sits on the throne?

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Revelation 3:21: To him that overcometh will I [Jesus] grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

How can there be Virgins left behind if God comes back once? Just like Lot and Noah God will rescue his loyal people from within the tribulation. He comes as a thief in the night for the rapture. When He come back to rule at the end everyone on earth will see him and bend the knee.

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen. He explains it all so well!

I have 2 sincere questions that I cannot seem to get a clear understanding of. 1) Who populates the millennium and if the 1st resurrection is for the just when we are caught up with Lord does that mean when those who populate the millennium are forever unsaved as there is only one more resurrection at the end of the millennium for the unjust? (Sorry that's 2 questions in one😅) 2. We would have to remain until our Jewish brothers and sisters are redeemed before we can be resurrected too as there is only one resurrection for the just, correct? This is one reason I dislike turning the verb harpazo into a noun. Its all one event, The Resurrection.

@jamesbales941

9 ай бұрын

The Bible teaches that after the return of Christ, He will set up an earthly kingdom of 1000 years in duration. The constituents of this earthly kingdom will include both saved and glorified individuals as well as saved and non-glorified individuals. The saved and glorified individuals will consist of all the saved of all the ages from Adam to the last beheaded martyr. The saved and non-glorified group will consist of a remnant of Israel (who is saved at the conclusion of the 70th Week of Daniel) and some Gentile believers who survive to the Day of the Lord. Following the battle of Armageddon, Christ will sit in judgment of those remaining alive on the earth in what has been called the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matt. 25:31-46). Those Gentile believers, who evidenced their faith by how they treated the Jews during the Great Tribulation, will enter the Millennial kingdom along with the saved Jewish remnant. There are many Scriptures which give us insight into the conditions on earth during the Millennial reign of Christ. These include Isaiah 35, 60-62, 65; Ezek. 40-48; Micah 4; and Rev. 20-22. From these passages we understand that the Millennial kingdom will be an earthly kingdom, with Christ ruling from the New Jerusalem which will descend from heaven and reside above Mt. Zion. Christ will rule in righteousness over the inhabitants of earth. During this time the earth will have been restored to conditions similar to before the Fall of Adam: wild animals will be tame, there will be no war, trees will give abundant fruit, sin will be punished. Ezekiel 47 points out the fact that fishermen will fish in the waters of the rivers and will catch “very many” fish. So the activities of life continue in a normal fashion, only with a righteous government, peace and perfect conditions. The saved but non-glorified group of individuals will enter the Millennial kingdom in natural, human bodies They will grow, mature, marry, procreate, age, and die (Isa. 65:20-25). Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47 tell us that the leaves of the trees that grow along the river of life are for the healing of the nations. Isaiah 65 tells us that people on earth at that time will live long lives, and if someone dies at 100 he will be considered accursed. Evidently, similar to those days prior to the flood, people will live hundreds of years. During these 1000 years, Israel will be the chief nation of the world and will be restored to the full dimensions of her land which God promised. Mt. Zion will be raised up as the chief mountain in the world and it is from here that Christ will reign from the New Jerusalem (Ps. 68:16; 132:13-14; Micah 4:1-8). King David will be resurrected and will be the chief prince over the nation of Israel (Jer. 30:9; Ezek. 37:24-25). All other nations will honor Israel and will worship God in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 tells us that those nations who do not come up to Jerusalem every year to worship God will be punished with no rain. While all the saved, but non-glorified individuals who initially enter the Millennial kingdom will be believers, we understand that during the millennium there will be many people born. Some of these will choose to not follow the leadership of Christ and will be rebellious in their hearts. Those born during this time are born with the same sin nature that humans now are cursed with. Thus, when Satan is released at the conclusion of the 1000 years, he is able to amass a great army to come against the “beloved City”, Jerusalem (Rev. 20:7-10). I hope this helps. God bless!

@glory7111

9 ай бұрын

@@jamesbales941 Thank you for your very articulate answer and with Scripture references as well. I guess my trouble in making sense of it Is that there are only 2 resurrections...The one for the just is before the millennium. Therefore how are people translated to their immortal body and without corruption after that point? Perhaps I misunderstand the Great white throne judgement.

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

Very good questions. There are three groups of people on the planet when the Millennium starts. 1) The church, which consists of pre and post trib saints who all get glorified resurrected bodies before we come back for the Millennial Reign. However, all of those people now have immortal, incorruptible bodies. One of the drawback to being able to walk through walls, is that you can't procreate. So the trade off is you get a glorified body, and you can easily go between earth and heavenly dimensions. Pretty cool stuff. But you won't be given in marriage and you won't be having children. 2) A group of survivors from each Gentile nation. They are mortals from every tribe. They will be functioning just as we are now. 3) A group of survivors from the Jewish nation. They are mortals and represent the 12 tribes of Israel. They were supernaturally protected from the Anti-Christ during the second half of the Tribulation. They will be functioning just as we are now. So during the Millennial reign you will have Christ and his church ruling and reigning over the remaining mortals (Jews and Gentiles) as they repopulate the earth. All the mortals who survive the Tribulation will be required to believe in Jesus and their Lord and savior during those 1,000 years. If they don't believe that, they will be led astray by Satan when he is released from the bottomless pit, one final time, to deceive the nations and gather another army. So our job as the church, is to make sure we are teaching and practicing God's love to those we rule and reign over so that they will accept Christ and not be led astray after the 1,000 years are over. This is why the resurrection of the unbelievers is after the 1,000 years. They all stand together at the Great White Throne Judgment. That group will include those who turned against Jesus in the final uprising at the end of the Millennium. That is why the resurrection is in several parts, because Jesus separates his church from his enemies. All those who live during the Millennial reign will have to put their faith in Jesus, just like we have to today, because they will need to show their allegiance to Christ and not get caught up with Satan's rebellion. Once the final judgment is complete and all the wicked are thrown into hell, then God creates the new heaven and new earth. And we will all live forever without fear of sin entering our world.

@glory7111

9 ай бұрын

@@seanc2788 Thank you for your reply Sean

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

​@@seanc2788Excellent response & presentation!

At around the 10:00 mark you start a conversation about your early opinions on the timing of the rapture. For about 30 seconds you tell the story of questioning the pre-trib philosophy but you never complete your ideas. Can you rewatch it and then complete your sentences please? I’m confused about what you’re trying to say.

10 minutes in and you still haven't explained the distinction between the positions

Revelation 7 is the end of the Tribulation and Revelation 8 is the start of God’s wrath.

@mikehaney6922

9 ай бұрын

yes that "multitude" in Rev. 7 could be the church, thats what the 6th and 7th seal people believe. very possible.

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

Revelation 7 is just after the beginning of the Tribulation and it goes all the way until Revelation 19.

The major source of timing for the rapture comes from two passages. The first is II Thess. 2, where Paul indicates the Antichrist cannot appear before the Abomination of Desolation appears. That does not mean the rapture will happen at that moment. The second passages that is always quoted about the rapture is I Thess. 4:13-18. That passage is take directly from Isaiah 27:12-13. The rtiming of the aprure in Isaiah is on the Day of the Lord. No, you are not wrong. Just do your dilagence in proper exogesis. J.M.M.

@seanc2788

9 ай бұрын

The major source of timing for the rapture happens in Rev 4:1, which is before chapter 6 when the seals are opened by Christ, which starts the Tribulation.

I think Jacob Prasch is post trib...and maybe Joe Schimmel

@ObeyJesusOurLord

5 ай бұрын

Check out Robert Van Kampen -- Pre wrath rapture position

But 2Thess 1 says that our relief comes at the Return… The Wrath happens really at that time… Too many people are over-parsing this. Post Trib is pre wrath in the original sense.

@Tennessee.B.

9 ай бұрын

One thing that baffles me about some who divide the term wrath as if God's wrath is not seen in the seals and the trumpets- some might even say that with the conditions of the world now with the leaders we have and all the absurdity going on is a form of wrath - ???

@Tennessee.B.

9 ай бұрын

Yes I agree , but I'm just trying to make the point that when you're going through the experience of the trib or prior and weather patterns are off the chart and you see human behaviors that are sub human and Christians betraying each other are you going to sit down to figure which wrath is being displayed God or Satan- I believe we get to technical and leave the life part out- jus one bros opinion - God bless

In Mathew 24:21 Jesus talks about the start of the Great Tribulation, and in Mathew 24:29 Jesus talks about the sixth seal being opened AFTER the great tribulation. This was a great surprise to me to see the Great Trib wasn't the full 3.5 years . wouldn't this make PreWrath and post Trib actually the same thing? The lost in this time will be eating and drinking and giving in marriage. The Christians and Jews will be in Tribulation.

The primary and most important contention between the Pre-Wrath and the Post-Trib positions is the issue of the *Resurrection.* The problem with the Pre-Wrath position is that with a Pre-Wrath Rapture, you will still be left with the necessity of having and believing in essentially 2 different "First" Resurrections: a "First" Resurrection of the Saints following the 6th Seal before the "Wrath" of God falls on mankind, and then *_ANOTHER_* "First" Resurrection of the Saints when the Lord returns at the end of the Great Tribulation period. This is *NO DIFFERENT* than the nonsense embraced by those who hold and teach the Pre-Trib position, in which you have to have a double "First" Resurrection or 2 "First" Resurrections to make the whole erroneous theory work and explain the obvious discrepancies away. On the other hand, the Post-Tribulation Rapture position, where the "First" Resurrection occurs at the Second Coming of the Lord immediately following the Tribulation when the Lord will appear in the clouds and the Trump of God sounds and the Saints are "Caught Up" to be with Him, is the position that allows for only *ONE* "First" Resurrection, which is, of course, the correct view. That's why I hold to the Post-Trib position as opposed to the Pre-Wrath position, and I believe that the Scriptures clearly teach that the "Wrath" the Saints are not appointed to is the *ETERNAL WRATH* of God as is revealed in His eternal judgement and final punishment of those who chose not to believe in Him and obey Him, which the Word of the Lord calls the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" - the Second Death.