Huge thanks to Andrew for chatting with us about the infinity wings! You can check out AMB Aero at www.amb-aero.com/ Enjoy the first video of the WTAC series!

@mikegrady4

6 жыл бұрын

KYLE.ENGINEERS, yeah.....I don't know if I would have been willing to discuss that on camera. GREAT JOB

@KYLEENGINEERS

6 жыл бұрын

Wait until you see my interview with the designer of RP968, we cover everything! For some reason it feels like aero guys are more comfortable discussing these sort of things with me than general media... Andrew was just a super nice and friendly guy though, and I really appreciate him being so open in such a closed field.

@mikegrady4

6 жыл бұрын

KYLE.ENGINEERS, I think he opened up pretty good!

@Zephirot080

6 жыл бұрын

Will you do a CFD video to thoroughly explain this concept?

@mikegrady4

6 жыл бұрын

I have watched this video 3 times now...... This is probably my favorite video, I have seen, on KZread. It explains it better than a publication like Racecar Engineering ever has.

Simplified. A forward facing wing provides drag in exchange for downforce. If you put a wing sideways it provides no drag and no downforce. They put a curved wing where the wind is pushing around the car so it's actually moving sideways. So a sideways wing provides no forward drag but with the wind pushing sideways it will still produce downforce.

@Oleg-oe1rc

5 жыл бұрын

Still produces plenty of drag, just not quite as much as the typical flat design. They've really just optimized the way the air reaches the wing by making it a gradient where it starts off with no drag or down force, and slowly curves in to direct the air properly while gradually increasing downforce (and drag). The air getting "squeezed" does produce some extra downforce "without" drag (even then there techincally is when you really zoom out), but it's a very small percentage of the total. Where it really shines though is in giving the inside tire more grip, dynamic yaw durring cornering has always been a weak point in traditional wings.

@ii_berzin_ii9079

5 жыл бұрын

@@Oleg-oe1rc Yeah I would love to see the math/data on that inside tire grip gain because when he said that, my interest was really piqued. The way that the inside tire gets the greater downforce due to slicing through the air at an angle to the way the car is facing is a really unique and creative upside to this wing design.

@Christophe_L

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, but guess who did the work of pushing the air sideways? The car, obviously. The car was also slowed down by this very action (reaction). So the argument that the sideways wing creates no forward drag is pointless, because to move the air sideways you must incur in some drag first.

@jonkeau5155

5 жыл бұрын

Christophe L that’s irrelevant, this car is going from acquiring drag from the same air twice like other cars in the class to mitigating the second acquisition of drag from the same air.

@Christophe_L

5 жыл бұрын

@@jonkeau5155 Hi. That's not correct. The drag produced by the sideways wing will also slow the air down, which in turn will need to be sped up by oncoming air, producing more drag. In other words: in any case, you'll need to accelerate the air sideways. In the case of a sideways wing, that air will be slowed down by the wing, producing drag (yes, sideways drag, but you'll create a high pressure area that actually will produce longitudinal drag) and in the case of a 'normal' wing you'll create that longitudinal drag directly. You can't get free downforce.

I've been binge watching aerodynamic videos, this Andrew guy is in half of them, wicked smart dude haha

@Mastermindyoung14

Ай бұрын

I'm down that same rabbit hole. We've probably watched the same videos. You're 6 years ahead of me!!

Oh that hack saw sound 😍

@MrBurgerphone1014

6 жыл бұрын

It hurts

He didn't really mention it but I suppose they call it an infinity wing because in the forward parts of it, it's generating downforce with drag perpendicular to the car's coordinates, making it an infinite L/D ratio.

@skrlaviolette

5 жыл бұрын

Maybe in maths, but not in engineering ;)

@andrew66769

5 жыл бұрын

Yea in reality theres no such thing as something having an infinite l/d ratio lol

@gracefool

5 жыл бұрын

there's no such thing as infinite anything in reality... that's the difference between engineers and mathematicians :p

@upurkilt7246

4 жыл бұрын

Was always told by my engineering lecturer that infinity is a theory that has yet to be proven the concept of infinity has a mathematical basis but we have yet to perform an experiment that yields an infinite result. He said its the yin and yang hypothesis if it has a statr it has a end.

@acvarthered

3 жыл бұрын

Not only is there no such thing as infinite l/d ration, there is no such thing as sideways drag. Drag is the energy lost when you accelerate a fluid around a moving object. That energy has to come from an energy source. That energy source is the momentum of the moving object. The car only has forward momentum. It can only have rearward drag!

I'm a bit of a dummy - I think this kind of video would be greatly improved by 3mins~ added on where you re-explain what the engineer was explaining. Give us a second go to hear and understand. You're so good at making stuff clear.

@Fred-tm9dn

6 жыл бұрын

With some added drawings and what not to support the explanation and the theory would be great !

@HipsterNgariman

6 жыл бұрын

Yeah, also being a dummy on this subject (and have 0 experience in engineering whatsoever)(and english isn't even my native language), I don't think I understood half of it. But this single half was interesting ! WTAC regulations, equal to larger front wings, it improved the downforce of the car but also the balance of the car in the corner, thus loose the suspension and gain grip

@jodybarrett8832

6 жыл бұрын

More or less, in non-engineering terms, they've found that curving the front wing like they have in the video has allowed the car to produce more downforce than a typical front to back wing that you may have seen in older time attack or even pikes peak vehicles. F1 cars are actually a good example as well, they generally have a front wing that's straight and forward facing. In laymans terms they've more or less discovered that the direction of the aero doesn't necessarily have to be in line with the vehicles travel in order to produce downforce. To me this makes sense if you can visualize where the air is going when it makes impact with the cars bumper. In Andy's case here some of it will deflect toward the side of the car, hense the wrap around wing. The design "catches" that deflected air and allows it to still flow over the wing even when directed outward away from the front of the vehicle. Hope I could make some sense of it here for you guys. Ask away if not!

@shaneclk9854

6 жыл бұрын

the curved wing pulls the car to the side instead of backward(normally called drag) of course as you have 2 front wings pulling the car in opposite directions they cancel each other out.

@Oleg-oe1rc

5 жыл бұрын

To be fair, I don't think you understand quite how complex it gets when your really take a fine microscope to everything. It would take a whole lot longer than 3 mins to explain this fully to a layman, as even for engineers this can be quite a tricky and complex concept, especially once you start considering all the factors.

Good on Andrew for staying composed with those bugs flying at his face. i would have been livid : / lol

@sagenthesergal

6 жыл бұрын

Same here

@andrew66769

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks man

That made a lot of sense. Thank you! Never stop with your videos, it is so hard to find actual content on car aerodynamics.

I love the display of racer spirit and determination in this video! You're talking aerodynamics with lift and drag coefficients in terms of vector math, all the while doing work with a hack saw in the background!

I love the aerodynamics on time attack cars there so cool

That’s actually brilliant!! Replace drag with side force, I’ll take that anyday

That was a lot of potentially sensitive information divulged there from Andrew! Awesome work there Kyle and possibly one of the best interviews from WTAC 2k17!

@ii_berzin_ii9079

5 жыл бұрын

I mean its nothing you cant see from looking at the wing shape and running some models on a similar design.

Great video as always, confirmed most of my theories regarding the infinity wings design. Looking forward to more videos from WTAC as well. : )

Some clever thinking, I like where they are going with the concept!

my good old friend doing big things! way to go Andrew! can't wait to build another Time Attack race car with you, just like the good ol days!

Informative. I don't feel dumber after watching this unlike many of car videos on KZread. Thumbs up.

That makes so much sense. I love it.

This was great! Would love to see more videos with him explaining some of his designs.

@arcad3

6 жыл бұрын

Would love to see anything from you

I love the thought process and concept or changing the wing desing to change the direction of the drag force to lateral... i imagine this would have a negative impact on turn in however as it would increase the stability but im also sure they know that and think its worth while. You can always overcome the lateral stability with the grip from the tyre. Great video.

Andy forrests Subaru i love this car. Been watching this car evolve for years at knockhill in scotland and at the uk 10 of the best and at santa pod. And the new look of the car is just amazing just reminds me of a storm troopera helmet. Well played good sir...... well played.

That's bloody clever 👍

WOW! THIS SO AMAZING!

definitely the concept i was working on for my car.

MY BOY KYLE! I found ya channel! Miss ya dude!!! Time to make a wing for my R33!

Thanks!

Very interesting

Just looking at it, I'm surprised it gives the inside tire more downforce; it looks like it would have the opposite effect. Sounds like getting one of those knocked off would be considerably worse than the older designs. A very impressive design!

@jubuttib

6 жыл бұрын

Just spitballing, but if we think about the yaw angle of the car, the car when driven on the edge is usually always sliding a bit, so the nose is pointed towards the inside of the corner more than the direction of travel. That could open up the inside wing a bit more, making it point more towards the direction of travel, while closing off the outside wing a bit, leading to more DF on the inside, compared to traditional layouts.

@KompletterGeist

6 жыл бұрын

Reason might be that when you roll in a corner, the angle of attack of the curved flap on the inside increases

@KYLEENGINEERS

6 жыл бұрын

Bang on jubuttib, that is exactly the cause. The most forward portion of the wing will see an effective increase in angle of attack on the inside tyre if the car is at say 4 degrees yawed into a corner. At lower speeds, where we approach the true cornering condition instead of yaw, this effect will reverse (think of the steer angle of the tyres relative to the slip angle, and the location from chassis centre). However, this is below the aero critical speeds, and is an acceptable tradeoff.

@KYLEENGINEERS

6 жыл бұрын

And Obstsalat95, while the roll angle will ever so slightly increase the inside alpha by a degree or so, it also significantly increases the ride height, which would cause a loss in downforce on the inside wheel with no yaw, which is what Andrew talks about in the video

@KompletterGeist

6 жыл бұрын

I was aware that the groundeffect suffers on the inside but i couldn't come up with another reason :D Thx for explaining things!

For those who might be wondering, they used Andy Forrest's 1995 gc8 subaru wrx in this video. In my opinion Andy's wrx is the best wrx in the world

There's something kind of pleasant about hearing an aerodynamic device justified in part because it allows the suspension to be softened for better performance. It's a nice change from the normal story of making all possible suspension compromises to let the aero hug the ground.

When internet aero giants collide! Now to get both of you talking about under tray turning vanes

Yo that fly was like TEACH ME YOUR WAYS.

Very cool.

Lots more wtac videos please !! :)

Could you do a follow up video to this, explaining your cfd analysis?

Nice one as usual. Their diffuser though seems way over the top for the shown rideheight, even for being stepped. Granted the control arms and all give some flow restriction and negligible magnus, but I don't know, seems to me a bit ambitious. What do you think? Do they passively run stalled and rely on dive to to get air in from the sides?

Bloody clever aero

Kyle what do you think about motogp AERO Fairings?? Do you think is the future in roadlegal supersport bikes??. Cheers and thank for this great vids!

@BasuSatwik

6 жыл бұрын

they dont look very promising because the bikes are leaning during the curves. The current design will only increase downforce in straight line.

@ASJC27

6 жыл бұрын

He has a video on that.

@raydavison2972

6 жыл бұрын

According to an interview with one the Top MotoGP Tech guys, they can produce a wing that takes loads of time off the lap but the rider input required through the bars is so great that he cannot ride the bike for more than a couple of laps.

@ChevroletastragtcOPC

6 жыл бұрын

I believe since Motogp bikes are varying it position all the time aerodynamics could be even more fascinating than cars, if i'm not mistaken the reason why the winglets used in motogp last year were not fully straight but leaned towards the ground was to minimize the aero effect on corners, which could ultimately washout the front.

@cantgo2fast

6 жыл бұрын

It wasnt really for downforce at all. during one of the races last year one of the ducati drivers said they are actually used to create turbulence for the bikes behind them making it harder to draft. If you rememeber it was mainly the ducatis that used them and thats becasue the only way other bikes could catch them on the straights was to draft.

sick garden edging

i wonder if the vortices generated by this type of front winglet are used by the rest of the aero on this car. in the same way that modern f1 cars rely heavily on front wing vorticies to deflect/direct air to where it needs to be for the rest of the car

“Relative to the flow field” 😂😂 bro thought he was going somewhere with that

Awesome

What were yhe little wires on the wing endplates leading into the bumper? What do they do and how do they work?

I learned more from the guy cutting the pipe with a hacksaw in the background. Getter done!

Why does it exactly help with wheel drag? Is it just a closer proximity to the, the higher efficiency of the wing or something else?

brilliant is correct. I love this idea, there is no reason why a wing needs to be facing "forward" it just needs to be forward to the air the happens to be flowing towards it. Can we channel air beneath a car to hit wings facing at different angles? It makes me think of the possibilities.

Holy shit. I had to click as soon as it came through. Been a fan for some time and this the first one I caught early. 🗿

Wouldn’t the structure that curves the air outward produce the drag that would otherwise be produced by the wing?

Which CFD program do you use or you consider to be the best?

What racing class/league/event are these cars for? Wonder if F1 will use something similar.

@dawids4559

6 жыл бұрын

They kind of already do. Look closely at F1's front wing endplates.

@ChefofWar33

5 жыл бұрын

Everything that you have ever thought of or will think of has been in F1 at least 20 years ago. It is the pinnacle of motorsport. Concepts trickle down, not up.

Could this work for open wheel cars too? This is really genius.

@skrlaviolette

6 жыл бұрын

You would need a large structure directing the air to the side, which would increase drag. And you can't youse the space where the structure is for your front spoiler. But if you look closely at formula 1 Wings, it kinda looks like they use something similiar near the endplate/behind the endplate, the upper barts of the wing swing forward there, and there are structures directing the air out, around the tire. But they are so complex, I am not totally sure whats going on there.

3:07 the forces to the sides sure but there is still drag resisting your forward movement.

wow that is brilliant, some day I hope to get my z this far

This is actually fucking genius. There's no way that the other teams don't replicate or ban this tech in league because of how groundbreaking it is!

Cool

I want one for my ford focus

Sorry I'm slow but how is "drag" reduce by directing the air outward? The air doesn't take its self in that direction. It's guided towards that direction but encountering a profile, in the case the crown of the front bumper which is still drag.

@admkbldwn

6 жыл бұрын

They're just referring to the end plate as a system. The *end plate* is producing downforce without drag. The drag from the bumper is going to happen whether the end plate is there or not.

Boomerang canards! Got it.

Is he the Andrew Brilliant from TrackHQ?

Brilliant name

The stuff about "reduced drag" due to the angle doesn't make sense to me. I see that you're getting a longer effective wing length in the same horizontal distance due to the locally off-axis airflow, which is totally an advantage. But there's no such thing as a free lunch. Just because the drag portion of the net force is slightly lateral doesn't mean it doesn't take energy to overcome--the car has to expend energy producing that lateral airflow in the first place, and you are increasing the energy needed to produce it by putting a wing in the way.

so interview with adrian newey next?

Get ALL your Wings stop here...they do wings!

I have a question do duck spolers actually work

@DapperHesher

6 жыл бұрын

Sure, but they're nowhere near as effective as an actual airfoil profile wing. They generally exist where regulations don't permit real wings, like NASCAR, for instance.

@nickamarit

5 жыл бұрын

drag spoilers are extreme duck spoilers, no?

1:20 because racing needed more rules.

So basically this wing is to create downforce while sideways?

@andrew66769

5 жыл бұрын

Kinda

This guy is a nerd. Loved the explanation

and here i'm worry that time attack aeros are taking a turn for the worst, where a circuit time attack car gets more scaffolding than a hill climb car(car like that evo, and the sort) which ruins the car's look imo(turning it from a functional car to a functional thing...) figured it'll be a tread for technology advances and regulations, glad that the change of the regulations push the R&D for something better(still look excessive, but thats racecar i guessed)

Those are some weird-ass technical regs.

so.. most downforce only in corners? genius!

Ya... but what about that chick's awesome fanny pack no one is mentioning in the background?

Looks like hammerhead sharks

That honestly looks like a Failrace chat build

No flies on him...

I wonder if the FIA has banned this in all motorsports yet.

My brother does aero stuff for fighter planes. Can’t really say much beyond that. I asked him about this and he just nodded his head and said it’s pretty legit. That’s good enough for me.

All that work to get an efficient lifting surface, yet held in place by a wire.............Can you say drag.

Yeah, but guess who did the work of pushing the air sideways? The car, obviously. The car was also slowed down by this very action (reaction). So the argument that the sideways wing creates no forward drag is pointless, because to move the air sideways you must incur in some drag first.

@maitele

5 жыл бұрын

Those semantics are equally pointless as the car would be doing that work regardless of whether the wing was there or not. The meaning is that the wing itself is not adding a significant drag force, it is simply making use of the air already shifted.

@Christophe_L

5 жыл бұрын

@@maitele You still need to accelerate air sideways and then decelerate it to create downforce. In other words, Newton's Third applies here too. Here's the question but backwards and upside down: design an airplane with sideways wings only, then compare it to regular wings.

WOW...I was MORE confused after I watched.

So it's a splitter. Wow. Amazing.

Nonsense, just take off wing, do quarter mile time, you know hp and weight so you know drag. you can also measure downforce by compression of struts, and thus measure efficiency of the wings.

@marshalcraft

5 жыл бұрын

discussing cfd in garage is really pointless, you aren't going to design a part and put it on right there.

Another nail in the endplate coffin. In a few years they will be non-existent due to concepts similar to this.

Misnomer.

It's a nice example of "outside the box" thinking. I'm sorry.

Guy is high, if he thinks there is no drag on that wing. If he was right, F1 would be using it. I would think their engineers and budgets would come up with the best solution.

@dawids4559

6 жыл бұрын

Nothing has no drag, correct, but the minimal drag created by this wing is far outweighed by the benefits of all that downforce.

This is bullshit!!! There is no such thing as sideways drag. You either have no idea what drag which means you don't understand the first thing about aerodynamics, or you are lying. Drag is a vector representing the loss of momentum due to a moving object pushing air out of the way. To accelerate anything you need to put energy into it. It does not matter which way you are pushing the air if it is accelerating (changing direction) you have to put energy into it. That energy comes from the momentum of the moving object. Unless your car has sideways momentum then your infinity wings are not producing sideways drag. They are taking energy from the only energy source available to them the FORWARD momentum of the car. They produce REARWARD drag!

That might be a brilliant concept but the front splitters are making just about the ugliest looking cars on the planet.

@admkbldwn

6 жыл бұрын

Pretty doesn't shave lap times and win races

@DapperHesher

6 жыл бұрын

IMO, The aero elements are best looking part of the shitbox ugly time attack sedans. They'd look far better as proper race cars.

If they took all the wings off they would save 1000kg and drag making it faster. A bit like my 400hp civic

@dawids4559

6 жыл бұрын

Your statement is incorrect for many reasons. Primarily in the fact that this is a time attack car, and top speed (the stat most affected by drag) is not anywhere near as important as grip in the corners (the stat most affected by higher downforce) when doing time attack.

@LawrenceTimme

6 жыл бұрын

why would you attack the time? what has it ever done to them? :(

@DapperHesher

6 жыл бұрын

1. Doubtful the aero elements contribute anywhere near 1000 kg to the car! 2. "Carrying the speed" as they say (cornering faster + braking later and less because you can corner faster + exiting the corner faster because you can corner faster) is the single best way to drop down your lap times. A car with a slightly better power-to-weight ratio might accelerate faster but it's got to play catch-up coming out of the corners and can't spend as much time accelerating on the straights as it's got to go for the brake pedal much earlier each subsequent corner. In sort, downforce rules where you can get away with it.

Timeattack for guys to scared to driv3 a real race

Forget downforce and drag. It's just ugly!

@Richona

6 жыл бұрын

Philipp Maaßen wtac

@mehrmalsamtag

6 жыл бұрын

Robert S what?🤷🏻‍♂️

@dawids4559

6 жыл бұрын

WTAC is full of 'purposely ugly' cars. Function > Form

@Richona

6 жыл бұрын

World Time Attack, the format the car in the video competes in. It's Andy Forrest's Subaru, have a little google, it's incredible