He wasn't just scary. He was threatening. He threatened to kill. Huge difference.

@samanthawhang7498

Жыл бұрын

He’s followed through on his threats before. He was not just threatening, he was dangerous.

@geekylove3603

Жыл бұрын

The Marine could have grabbed Jordan by his flimsy thin wrists and sat him on his bottom in 8 seconds flat.

@geekylove3603

Жыл бұрын

Instead he choked him to death. Not racist. Not a hero. Just perhaps slightly less IQ than the usual gentleman.

@CallSign_Alucard

Жыл бұрын

@@geekylove3603 I’m thinking you’ve not dealt with many mentally unstable individuals before. They can be surprisingly difficult and strong to handle. It’s why it was more than one person trying to hold him. The local news even talked with the guy taking the video and he said they were all afraid for their lives and was glad someone tried to protect everyone.

@geekylove3603

Жыл бұрын

@CallSign_Alucard I work in criminal justice and I have. Plus I know what the human body can do under duress just like you. We all have common sense here I'd like to think. The Marine should have grabbed the boy's wrist and flung him on the fucking floor. Pushing his knee into his back. Instead he choked him to death. The boy fought for his life. Hence "the struggle". Sir. Don't be obtuse. Peace.

When someone is clearly mentally ill, and combative, I shouldn't need to wait until he actually starts stabbing me before I'm allowed to defend myself, or others. "Through no fault of their own" means nothing. If someone is mentally ill and violent "through no fault of their own" that doesn't make the injury disappear.

@geekylove3603

Жыл бұрын

The Marine could have grabbed Jordan by his flimsy thin wrists and sat him on his bottom in 8 seconds flat.

@Individual_Lives_Matter

Жыл бұрын

@@geekylove3603Maybe. I’m a marine and I’ve been a cop for ten years. It’s not that easy.

@roaroa5291

Жыл бұрын

​@@geekylove3603 There were 3 men wrestling with the dangerous lunatic. This should tell you something about how easy it is to restrain lunatics.

@nigelralphmurphy2852

Жыл бұрын

What injury?

@Pancajayna

Жыл бұрын

​@@geekylove3603you don't know wtf you are talking about...

I think one of things that always gets overlooked in this situation is that Penny was not alone. There were at least two other guys that helped him restrain Neely, one of them black. So it's apparent that Penny wasn't the only one on that train who thought that Neely's actions warranted some kind of physical response. He was not just some vigilante looking for an excuse to kill somebody

@StoryThyme100

Жыл бұрын

Exactly!!!! Why is this not being mentioned???

@NdxtremePro

Жыл бұрын

@@StoryThyme100 I watch John in these and almost always realize he gets his news from if not entirely then a majority liberal/leftist news organization. It is a testament to his character and strength that his thinking is so well thought out considering this.

@sonsoftexas

Жыл бұрын

Honest question. If three guys held someone down and choked someone to death would the two that helped be charged as well as accessories to the crime? Why is this different? This whole situation is a microcosm of how broken race is in this country. Nothing is a principle it’s all optics.

@NdxtremePro

Жыл бұрын

@@sonsoftexas Its not race, its politics. And the politics are what would decide whether the other 2 were charged. The politics of whether the Prosecutor thought both they could get a conviction, because convictions make their records look better for later career advancement, and the optics on how quickly it can advance their career.

@CreamCorn69XL

Жыл бұрын

@@sonsoftexas They definitely did in the George Floyd case. They charged all the cops present, even though Chauvin was the main perpetrator. And I think that's a good example of how different the scenarios were. Floyd had bystanders telling Chauvin to get his knee off and he didn't. From what I understand, Penny actually let go and put Neely in the recovery position. But because the result was the same, that's all they look at

People need to watch the whole video. Penny & 2 others restrained him until he passed out; Penny then put him in a recovery position, they had an ambulance there when the train stopped, Neely was alive when the Paramedics got there; Neely was pronounced dead at the hospital; not at the train stop.

@russell-gt1dy

Жыл бұрын

Where's the toxicology report? History of drug abuse.. a 15 minute struggle on drugs could easily lead to cardiac arrest

@francesostrowski2374

Жыл бұрын

Did anyone ever see the toxicology report?

@joseywales148

Жыл бұрын

Why was he arrested, this is ridiculous?

FINALLY!!! I’ve been waiting for this and John did not disappoint. As a person who rides the train in NYC to commute for work, there are too many “Neely’s” that terrorize people.

@Chalk89

Жыл бұрын

I had a crazy incident - was at Penn Station getting ready to head home and notice this younger black guy approaching me. He had a sob story about being admitted to the hospital for a work injury, not having his wallet, blah blah. The very next day he was telling a completely different story to a VERY old lady and I saw her reaching for her purse. I walked up and confronted him and he didn't remember me, clearly. He started legitimately growling at me and started drooling. Cops came and told him to leave - officer said he's a constant nuisance, has been cuffed a few times and asked to leave a dozen times. That shit makes me so damn angry.

@andrewgilmore1443

Жыл бұрын

We have the same problem here in Chicago. I won’t let my wife take the red line. So many unstable people. Additionally, so many unsupervised teenagers up to no good. Little to no police presence.

@vanessacarter4498

Жыл бұрын

@@Chalk89 I avoid Penn Station at all costs! It is an absolute mess over there.

The scary thing about that behaviour is that you have no way of knowing how violent they might become, if unrestrained. If I had been in that subway car I would have prayed for someone to restrain the person. All the hindsight in the world is useless speculation, offered by those who weren’t present. The race factor here is irrelevant. I’m 81, a woman, and would prefer not to be punched in the face by someone who is black, white, and is on or off his meds.

@JasonPattersonTruMuseMedia

Жыл бұрын

1. you failed to answer the key question of whether he deserved to die. 2. You bring up meds...the deceased was homeless and lacked access to an adequate level of medical care this country very well could have provided, but didn't. You're obviously entitled to believe what you want but keep that same energy in criticizing the very system that played a major role in the unnecessary suffering of the deceased.

@endoalley680

Жыл бұрын

@@JasonPattersonTruMuseMedia He did not deserve to be purposefully killed. But the law will decide if this was an accidental and tragically unfortunate occurrence, or a malicious act.

@utah_koidragon7117

Жыл бұрын

@@endoalley680 The thing is that the law he's charged with is only saying he killed Neely accidentally- nobody is charging Penny with killing Neely maliciously. Seems pretty evident he's guilty of manslaughter.

@endoalley680

Жыл бұрын

@@utah_koidragon7117 Not necessarily. It could be adjudicated as self defense or a reasonable accident resulting in death. Or, as you say manslaughter at the extreme end. It could be that the people who intervened were unaware of Neely's health situation. And over-estimated his state of health when restraining him. I still haven't seen a toxicology report for Neely. Or the coroners specific report. Were bones or trachea broken or damaged? How tight or loose was the chokehold on Neely? I am sure this will all come out in the trial.

@utah_koidragon7117

Жыл бұрын

@@endoalley680 He's already been charged with second degree manslaughter, and if you've seen the video, he is very clearly guilty, I'm sorry to say. He has an argument that self-defense/defense of others was warranted. He does not have an argument that deadly force was justified, or that he was justified in continuing to use that level of force for as long as he did. All of the elements of force were in Penny's favor. He was much bigger than Neely. He had multiple people helping him to restrain Neely. At no point was anyone on the train in danger of losing their life to Neely, or suffering grave bodily harm from him. Penny immediately applied a choke hold and kept applying it throughout the entire physical encounter, despite the fact that another bystander had complete control of Neely's arms and Neely was fully subdued on the ground- so much so that the third guy people are talking about didn't have anything to do but stand there. Not only that, Penny maintained the choke for a full forty seconds after Neely lost consciousness for the last time, and didn't let go until another passenger told him he better release it or he'd be likely to "catch a murder charge." Given the totality of the circumstances, there really isn't a justification for any of that. The coroner's report was that the cause of death was compression of the neck. Who knows how a jury will decide these days, but according to the law and the facts of the case, there's little doubt that Penny is guilty of manslaughter.

The root cause of the entire incident is the failure of those in authority to perform their duties and protect the citizenry, creating the environment in which people like Daniel Penny feel an obligation to take it upon themselves to do the job the MTA and NYPD have been told not to. Also, I hate calling this a "racial incident" simply based upon the visible category the participants fall into. The presumption of guilt that accompanies such a moniker is a wrong that all decent people should call out.

@richc5207

Жыл бұрын

Also, the NYPD has been afraid to do their job since George Floyd. They are disrespected and demeaned.

@bobcharles7933

Жыл бұрын

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Those in authority are supposed to protect us? Geez, what planet to people live on. Look up the SCOTUS case 'Castle Rock vs Gonzalez' and get back to me. The police have no duty of care. The only person responsible for your safety is you.

@machtnichtsseimann

Жыл бұрын

Agree with you in calling it out! Some fairly balanced YT channels still make the mistake of "racializing" something that ought to be taken from the perspective of innocent-until-proven-guilty regarding "color" being a proven factor. American media is race-obsessed. How about a threatening individual was subdued on the subway. ( Leave "color" out of it unless it actually was overtly stated and was an issue. Mind Reading in this day and age is antithetical to critical thinking and cooler heads prevailing. )

@demontwashington5388

Жыл бұрын

@@richc5207 Same thing is happening in most big cities. It's why their crime is rising so fast. There's no deterrent and no consequences.

@Ifailedeverything

Жыл бұрын

🎯 arrested and released 44 times.

I've been an NYC resident since 2017. I've had three times in the subway (between 2017 and 2019) where something like a Jordan Neely was in the same subway car. Once, a trained fighter who knew the aggressor calmed the man down and got him off the train. The second time, another man and I had to take an aggressor's attention away from berating two Asian girls (who were scared shitless and rightfully so). When he realized there were two men he had to deal with he stepped off at the next stop. The third time it was just me who confronted a man that was screaming at and threatening, mostly, girls on the train. For a whole four stops on the uptown one train I stood face to to face with him as he was screaming at me and clearly debating whether or not he wanted to throw down. He stepped off at 110th or 116th. On the second occasion, I debated about putting the guy in a chokehold. I got behind this man and made eye contact with another passenger who I motioned to stand up so that there would be one of us on each side of the man. I considered, in that moment, a headlock as the most appropriate thing to do given the aggression the man was showing and the physical position I was in. The movement that ensued between myself, the other passenger, the girls being harassed, and the aggressive man unfolded in such a way that a headlock wasn't going to be the best option. All three of those men were black, by the way. And in the heat of the moment, the conscious thought wasn't "uh oh, there's a black guy." The thoughts were something like, "Danger, danger, danger, danger, danger, danger, danger, danger" as a response to behavior that was immediately recognized in my lizard brain as somebody who wanted to hurt me or people who couldn't defend themselves. I understand much more the frame of mind Daniel Penny and the two guys who were helping him must have been in and I understand much less whatever else is being put out there about what should have happened. "Should" does not enter the mind in such a situation. It's a rush of adrenaline and a fast heart beat and rapid breathing and panic. When your mind and body enter that mode, the person who is behaving aggressively doesn't feel like a person anymore. I only thought of that person as a threat with muscle, bone, and a desire to hurt. Away from the situation, I can tell a much more sympathetic story and talk about what that person must have been through and what state of health they're in. In the train car, I can't come up with words in my own mind. It's just feeling as a response to threat. If they aren't liable for their behavior because of circumstance and mental health, why should I or anybody else be liable for our behavior because of circumstance and bodily response?

@Mark-hc8ek

Жыл бұрын

Thank Democrats for us resorting to use our lizard brains daily.

Neely had over 40 convictions, and on the '50 most dangerous homeless people' list at NY social services

@norwalkspectator5275

Жыл бұрын

I think that pretty much sums it up and says it all. He'd pushed the edge of the envelope and tipped right over into eternity.

@orangefacedbuddah1776

Жыл бұрын

who knew there was a top 50.😊😊👍👍

@miakay327

Жыл бұрын

Ah yes, but he impersonated Micheal Jackson once upon a time so...

@biscaynediver

11 ай бұрын

Glad for the sensible, tax-paying, law abiding people on those subways that this guy's permanently gone. Net benefit for society. Ultimate manifestation of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

@orangefacedbuddah1776

11 ай бұрын

@@biscaynediver agree,more rubbish removed.A win ,win,for society.

I have been following the commentary on Neely and Penny in John's paper, the New York Times. A columnist named Roxanne Gay wrote how the event shows that making others uncomfortable can get you killed. This statement was so dunderheaded that I was stunned by it. Has she never been on a train with a lunatic? Does she not have people she cares about who might vulnerable to somebody like Neely? John wisely reacted in a later column that it was bit more than making people uncomfortable. It was terrifying them. What he didn't say was that that reaction of being trerrified is completely rational given what we have seen the Neely's and their like do: hit people with hammers, push people in front of trains, beat people into insensibility not to mention a whole raft of lesser "discomfiting" actions like spitting on people, grabbing their hair, threatening them in front of their kids. I am grateful that John chose to reference that column in his own. I wonder how Roxanne Gay reacted.

@jonnyfendi2003

Жыл бұрын

Yup read that same piece in that newspaper thats run by nothing but activists. The same newspaper that had an op ed entitled “Yes we mean literally abolish the police” during the height of the Floyd protests.

I was a Marine and I’ve been a cop for 10 years. Insane people are often insanely strong. Restraining someone with one or more people “helping”, even cops, is very awkward as well. You usually get in each other’s way more than anything.

@erikkovacs3097

Жыл бұрын

He should have used his MCMAP training to de-escalate the situation by calling a mental health counselor. If I remember correctly that's in the green belt training course.

@johngaller278

Жыл бұрын

This is a point that doesn't get spoken about anymore. They don't want technical aspects of conflict with mental patients known. They are the victim. Always.

@danielbackley9301

Жыл бұрын

Drug addicts are the same way . I grew up on the west side of Chicago. Once saw a guy on drugs back in the late 70s need 8 cops to take him down and subdue him.

@shanut8139

Жыл бұрын

@@devilselbow He's joking because that's not s o p

@utah_koidragon7117

Жыл бұрын

Nonsense. Laws of physics and basic biology don't get overwritten because someone is schizophrenic. And it is perfectly clear from the video that Neely didn't possess secret super strength.

Born and raised in san fransicko so definitely felt what these two guys were saying. Rode muni and Bart daily and I can tell you that homeless/druggies/criminals were the reason I started riding my bike to work (8 miles each way and at work by 6am). It just wasn’t worth the risk because the odds of having a bad situation became overwhelming. I’ve been attacked, robbed and had to help older folks and women on the train precisely because the city tolerated crazies and did absolutely nothing. Nor did most of the good people who rode the bus/subway. Everyone would look the other way so you KNEW that no one would do anything to help you if there was a bad situation. Now living in a red state and I plan to vote to keep it that way.

@andrewbarry6702

Жыл бұрын

Good man

@carolynbrightfield8911

Жыл бұрын

1950s - 1970s Sydney, public transport everyday. No swearing, men gave up their seats for women, children and the elderly. Plenty of poor people, plenty of mental health issues. What has changed is society's expectations around standards of behaviour. We're social animals. We adjust our behaviour according to the expectations of those around us. Seen too many do-gooders say "he can't do any better" and give a hand-out. Those people play right along, smile and sometimes go home to a comfy flat the do-gooder never sees. They become really good at grifting because that's what they get rewarded for.

@biscaynediver

11 ай бұрын

@@carolynbrightfield8911 This is what the arrogant Ivory Tower liberals seem unable to grasp and lack enough self-awareness to have humility enough to admit they just might know everything. The Cornell West idiots of the world. The grand pontificators of grand sweeping policies that have not a clue about how the real world works.

@jamesnation9889

10 ай бұрын

I was born in The City and lived there for 30 years, taking BART to work (and back) in the East Bay every day for 24 years ...saw lots of crazy stuff, including a few beatdowns of innocent people minding their own business. Unfortunately I had more than a few altercations with dudes acting out. BART police were mostly invisible and totally ineffectual. Sundays nights were always the weirdest. I left The City (and the country) because I got tired of the nonsense and paying tons of rent with zero chance of owning anything. If I had been smart, I would have moved on sooner.

@MsGavbo

10 ай бұрын

@@jamesnation9889 ditto

It is true that people who are sufficiently mentally ill are not competent, by definition. But if they're NOT to be responsible for themselves, they shouldn't be allowed to roam at large. Our liberty, our natural rights, is/are centered around our ability to take responsibility for our actions. A person who can't be expected to be responsible for their actions on a train...shouldn't be allowed on the train without a keeper.

@jasper_of_puppets

Жыл бұрын

Agree 1,000%

@dragonluvaIII

Жыл бұрын

I understand what you are saying. Which party is doing the most to expand healthcare for mental illness? As much money as this country has you would think we do more to take care of the mentally ill in a humane way.

@KAZVorpal

Жыл бұрын

@@dragonluvaIII I don't know of a single problem where the state throwing money at it turned out to do anything but make it worse. Poverty, education, drug abuse...it is inherent in the structure of a coercive state that failure is incentivized, success punished, so that state funding is never the answer. I wish it helped. But it only hurts.

@emmanuelgarcia619

Жыл бұрын

@@KAZVorpal so if not addressed through our public healthcare system, then how do you suggest this be addressed?

@KAZVorpal

Жыл бұрын

@@emmanuelgarcia619 Sadly, I don't have a clear idea of a solution. Organized society works better with competence and responsibility, and these are, by definition, people to whom that can't fully apply. For children, whom we hope will someday be competent, the solution that works best is their parents acting as keepers of them and their rights. But for those who never become or cease to be competent, we can't just saddle the parents forever. I have to admit that releasing everyone "not a danger" from mental institutions in the 1970s, without establishing some other mechanism for people being responsible for their actions in public, was a mistake. But it's clear that far too many were imprisoned in those institutions, up to that point, who should NOT have been there. I want to say we at last get the incompetent off the streets and keep them somewhere nice, which is what you appear to also be thinking of, but I just can't imagine that not going horribly awry, for the reasons I mentioned.

Welcome to San Francisco! My friend got hit with a bottle in the Mission district right before the pandemic. The crazy homeless lady was black, my friend was a middle aged white woman. She sustained an injury to the head but refused to file a police report. Why? Because racism, systemic oppression and mental health stigma. A week later she wrote a blog post about it, patting herself on the back for being so anti racist that she was willing to sustain injury to the head and still come away from the incident as an ally. When I tried to explain to her that her actions weren’t helping anyone. That this person should get serious help and that next it could be someone’s mom or dad or teenage child hit with a bottle, it was like I came in a spaceship from another planet. She just didn’t get it. 😳

@daveldma

Жыл бұрын

Maybe she was just dazed from getting hit in the head.

@212ntruesdale

Жыл бұрын

Your friend is a woke religionist. They simply have faith, and you don’t (fortunately!).

@str8delco589

Жыл бұрын

Make new friends

@danbaumann8273

Жыл бұрын

Straight up, flat out, coward. I actually think people like that are dangerous. And they'll deny their destructive, ideological, self righteous, thinking and destructive nature till the day of their death.

@MrJes3141

Жыл бұрын

Another leftist true believer.

John's characterization of Neely as "scary" instead of "threatening imminent violence" is inaccurate and misleading.

@jasper_of_puppets

Жыл бұрын

I think you're being unnecessarily critical of John's intentions with his choice of words. John wasn't trying to downplay the fears of the other subway riders. In fact, he even states that he believes that the initial intervention was justified.

@shmuelrosenthal6661

Жыл бұрын

@@jasper_of_puppets Fair, but John is so good with his words that I interpreted this as just a bit of softening towards his NY folks.

There is no study supporting it but most people would rather ride a subway with Penny than with Neely, whether they admit or not.

Mental illness is no excuse for lack of control. We desperately need to rethink opening the mental hospitals back up.

@Mark-hc8ek

Жыл бұрын

Then they'll be almost no Democrat voters left.

@dragonluvaIII

Жыл бұрын

My own sibling suffers from schizophrenia and personality disorder. Trust me there is no calm down until they feel like calming down. It's scary and a total lack of control

"Through no fault of their own" is the entire problem with our society. If you decide that people cannot be held accountable for their own actions then you can expect people to stop acting as if they will be held accountable for their own actions.

@py_a_thon

Жыл бұрын

There is a difference between legal disruption of civil activities and illegal disruption of society. Consider for a moment what "Disturbing the Peace" means. I have no further comment. That is my question. What is the difference between protest and disturbing the peace?

@freddieoblivion6122

Жыл бұрын

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY - the comment section: where the magic happens. What are we gonna say every criminal is just crazy now? COME ON - blatts have been handed a pride narrative and they picked it up and ran with it like Emmitt Smith at the superbowl. They've been emboldened in their blackness - which, let's be honest, is basically criminal degeneracy.

@mellowtron214

Жыл бұрын

*Amen. I kept hearing John say “no fault of their own” and thinking this is absurd. There must be a term for this, maybe “black fragility” where we remove all possible agency from black individuals as to not offend anyone who might over hear us referencing their actions AS IF THEY ARE ADULT HUMANS. Yes John, even if you are mentally ill, the actions you take are purely your fault. The punishment might take that in to consideration, but the fault is laid at the feet of the perpetrator. I have nothing but doubts that if this was referencing a white crazy eyed hobo, the thought of shifting blame would not even cross Johns mind. Black people are not retarded children. There isn’t a crime gene or some dumb shit, these people just live in a society that is constantly making excuse after excuse on their behalf. We just witnessed the entire upper crust of western media see a video in which a lone 6 month pregnant woman is thought to be BIKE JACKING 5 YOUNG MEN, and somehow, because of this white-phobic mind virus and the inability to ever say a negative but true word about darker skinned humans, that made more sense to 10s of millions of people than 5 men bike jacking a pregnant woman… solely because of the skin pigment of those involved. So, talking heads find pregnant white women more suspect of criminality, than a group of 5 young black men, the single most criminal demographic in all of America. The 3% of America’s who murders more Americans than the other 97% OF THE COUNTRY COMBINED!? They must be the victims because racism? Because we can’t have any standards because when black Americans fail to meet those standards it’s disquieting. So, let’s pass the buck to literally anyone but them, for their direct actions. Must be the pregnant white women. The stereotyping has gone off the rails, jumped the shark, and perfectly dismounted dick first in to fucking CLOWN. WORLD.*

@seanthomas85

Жыл бұрын

It's a very thorny problem: Some people are dangerous and in some significant sense it's "not their fault." The problem is identifying them accurately and removing them from society humanely. Too lax a standard and you'll catch non-dangerous people in your large, nonselective net. Too strict a standard and you'll leave huge numbers of dangerous people in play. I think our society has historically tilted toward "the dangers of freedom" over "security." I think we should necessarily err on the side of a strict standard that leaves some dangerous people out in the world to minimize the unjust detainment of harmless people. Our criminal justice system is founded on a parallel principle. But it seems to the case that we're even beyond that. We're at the point where almost no one is removed from society. We're even moving toward the point where even violent criminals are routinely released. We need to pull back now. Pendulums swing, and we're looking at a future social backlash where a lot of mentally unwell people are going to be aggressively institutionalized whether they are dangerous or not because society is collectively sick of this.

@thomasc9036

Жыл бұрын

@@py_a_thon As much as we write laws to be specific, we rely on discernments based on common sense, cultural norms, and personal honors. Of course, there are some incidents that are difficult to distinguish between a "protest" and "disturbing the peace". However, we cannot maintain a society where all little nuances of ethics/morality/laws must be spelled out. Some must rely on the underlying principle of the laws.

If Daniel Penny serves any time for this I’ll need to really reconsider living in a city such as mine. If we aren’t ever supposed to intervene and protect one another from the deranged people on the street, time to leave. The fact that there’s a racial dimension to this is terrifying.

@dragonluvaIII

Жыл бұрын

From all of the KZread and Twitter video of people being attacked as bystanders pull out phones to record-- Your question should not only apply to the deranged but also to the sane people. I don't disagree just pointing out some additional context.

@frankenbeans6930

Жыл бұрын

@@dragonluvaIII You are spot on.

@dragonluvaIII

Жыл бұрын

@@frankenbeans6930 Our thirst for brutal entertainment has come at the cost of our own humanity. You could be getting beat up badly and no one will intervene. People will pull out their phones and laugh at and record memes of you. 10-20 people could be around and no one will try to stop the fight. Everyone stands and watches for entertainment.

"No fault of his own"? never any responsibility

@jasper_of_puppets

Жыл бұрын

John McWhorter is talking specifically about Neely's mental illness. From what I've seen from John, he's far from a person who doesn't believe in personal accountability. But I think Glenn is right to push back against the way in which John framed it. I believe John said 'no fault of his own' simply as a way of communicating that he's not unsympathetic to the plight of the homeless & mentally ill, while making the point that the safety of subway riders also deserves priority.

@dirkbogarde7796

Жыл бұрын

yeah....slavery......wacism.......

@jejo63660

Жыл бұрын

To interpret John’s points as never assigning any responsibility to the appropriate people is to completely and intentionally misunderstand him. People like you seem to only want Glenn and John to take the most anti-black stance on any topic; I’m sure it feels even better to hold anti-black opinions when black guys are holding them themselves. Glenn and John are much more nuanced than to completely condemn someone like Neely (who legitimately suffered from mental illness), *and yet they still agree that he can’t be allowed to do that on trains* . You’re at the wrong channel; Candace Owens is more up your alley.

For a former Marine who is trained in a situation like this adrenaline will kick in, self-preservation mode goes full tilt, and the threat will be eliminated. It's no more complicated than that. So long as we're going to allow complete madmen to wander the streets this will continue.

@Individual_Lives_Matter

Жыл бұрын

I was a Marine and I’ve been a cop for 10 years. Insane people are often insanely strong. Restraining someone with one or more people “helping” is very awkward as well.

@danbaumann8273

Жыл бұрын

🎯 on both posts. The choke or to be more accurate I suspect in this case, neck hold from behind, is a very effective form of grab and restraint even for the untrained. Some armchair cowards, and that _is_ what they are, were talking about how he "should" but only that, "could have" "just pinned him" - with his Olympic level, yet Aikido like, wrestling skills no doubt.🙄. No way in hell was he actually _applying_ an actual _rear naked choke_ for 15 minutes either, which _is_ what is being implied. In other words implying he put it on and never let up...Bullshit. This choke, as you both likely know, will put a guy out in seconds even poorly done. It's likely Penny just did a quick grab as a form of simple restraint and then tightened it up to an actual choke, or something akin to an actual choke, in an on and off manner as Neely began to struggle in the same on and off manner. Unfortunately it did him in. Again, very easy to be the armchair quarterback especially in an adrenaline filled situation against someone aggressive. It's precisely as said in this vid, any other combination of people and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

@danielbackley9301

Жыл бұрын

@@danbaumann8273 Don't even need a choke or sleeper hold to make some one pass out . In High School had a friend who was planning to be a doctor . One day he grabbed my arm in a way that he put pressure on the main artery within 15 seconds I was telling him to leave go as I started to feel feint.

@danbaumann8273

Жыл бұрын

@@danielbackley9301 No, you’re right and is what I said. Just wrapping your arm around someones neck can make one light headed and even put one out if you squeeze it but that’s not what is being implied.

Someone’s mental health should not affect my physical and personal health It’s so weird what is taking place

If that guy punched an old lady he could have killed her. That means he was dangerous and the other guy had every reason to restrain him. Nobody has to put up with real threats from dangerous people whether they are mentally ill or not.

When this first broke, people were scared enough to move to the other end of the car. This resembles the bodega incident months ago. I’ll wait until all of the videos and testimony, complete autopsy comes out. I’m upset his family is complaining. Where were they in getting him help, providing him a home, making sure he’s taking his meds etc? Right now, it seems like it was a good deed gone bad. I’m leaning towards Marine’s side right now.

@TheDennzio

Жыл бұрын

Maybe the family sees a payday

@danbaumann8273

Жыл бұрын

His uncle is repeat offender criminal too. It shows exactly the environment he comes from and is completely and utterly unsurprising. Now that they're martyrship is receiving glorification and a potentially hefty payday is on the horizon as well they've come crawling out if the woodwork like the cockroaches they are.

@danbaumann8273

Жыл бұрын

@@devilselbow Sure it is.

@MrJes3141

Жыл бұрын

@@devilselbow What is your point?

I was riding the Chicago CTA from OHare Airport to downtown at about 11 p.m. One car had a Hispanic man camping in an entire half of the car closest to where people would naturally first board. About midway along he began to defecate. The next stop we all jumped off for another car. But what was there? Another homeless guy, this one white, taking up 10 seats with his camp. I wrote a complaint to the CTA. Their response was I should be more sensitive to the needs of the homeless. It was a surprisingly lengthy rant about the plight of the "unhoused."

@glennwatson3313

Жыл бұрын

That is an amazing story.

@rki7068

Жыл бұрын

RIP Chicago

@cardinal8268

Жыл бұрын

I've taken the blue line once ftom OHare . Uber is a bargain.

I live in Chicago and yes it's the worst part of my day , taking public transportation, especially in the morning because you are almost certain to encounter at least 1 of these people every train cart you are on. They scream, they curse, they threaten people, sometimes they have bottles, sometimes you can smell the flesh just rotting right on them. it's too much.

@windycityliz7711

Жыл бұрын

The Red Line is the worst. I've gotten off to report fights.

@alexpiper1115

Жыл бұрын

@@windycityliz7711 yep and that's the line i have to take to get to work . I feel like the Blue Line might be worse though.

@alexpiper1115

Жыл бұрын

@@windycityliz7711 One night I was on the traini and I had to hurry to get on at the Addison stop. I did a quick glance and there was one woman sitting in the middle of the cart - on the whole train cart. Well seconds later i saw and smelled the reason why she was the only person on the train. She had open leg ulcers that were grey, green and swollen. She literally smelled like a dead body.

@windycityliz7711

Жыл бұрын

@@alexpiper1115 Blue Line - I've only taken it to O'Hare. Going south, I forgot about that. Yeah I think you're right.

"Through no fault of their own." I appreciate John's compassionate view of people like this, but that's a fair enough excuse for every murderer, molester, serial killer, etc. They ALL have traumatic backgrounds that lead them to act in antisocial ways. In my very white hometown there's a guy just like this - young, black, possibly schizophrenic, just marching up and down the downtown sidewalks cursing violent threats at women and children. I hope he gets some kind of help, but won't be the least bit surprised or angry if he gets beaten or shot by someone who takes his antics the wrong way. This is a sad story all around, but we need a society that can house the Jordan Neelys of the world in a safe, controlled environment away from the public. Daniel Penny probably should have known better than an extended chokehold, but I seriously doubt he meant to do anything other than restrain Neely.

@rosgill6

Жыл бұрын

and he STARTED his whole statement with that. i rolled my eyes at that point

And this happens in a steel box on wheels, rolling down electrified tracks. Moving away can be hard; you can exit only at stops. Often cars are very crowded. When someone goes "off" it gets scary pretty darn quick.

Great conversation, Gentleman. I have defended many, many persons over the past 3 decades who have been mentally ill. It is a misconception that every time they commit a crime or an act of violence it is due to their mental illness. Most of the time it is not. I have seen very few criminal acts due to some psychotic break. Now I don't discount that the anger that fuels their violence may stem from their often broken lives but sometimes people - even mentally ill people - are just angry and don't care who they hurt. Most of my clients have also been very aware that I would argue on their behalf that they should be treated differently because they have a mental health diagnosis - better plea offer, easier sentence, complete dismissal, mental health court, whatever. So when you say Neely was yelling, threatening and scaring people through no fault of his own, I don't think we know that for a fact. This aggressive panhandling may have been effective for him and actually his choice. This will never be solved until we can force people into treatment or some kind of supervision. Mental Health Courts work because they ARE prosecuted and forced to come to court once a month. forced to connect or stay connected to a treatment service - the combination of carrot and stick works very well. If they comply for a period of time eg 9 months, 6 months then they get the case dismissed or reduced form a felony to a misdemeanor. Neely was in such a program in NYC and chose to walk away from a treatment program where he had food, shelter and meds. The mental health teams even go out & locate the patient/client on the street and the meds can be a monthly injection. But in reality, incompetent people need supervision for the safety of the community and for their own safety. We also don't know for sure if he died from a chokehold. No tox report yet and TBH I would never take the word of an ME without proper cross examination and the second opinion of a non-government medical expert. Chokeholds are considered an effective non-lethal form of restraint (hence the recovery position after person has passed out). They work in less than two minutes so Penny was not administering a chokehold for all that time. The arm around the neck area does not mean he was applying the chokehold for that extended period of time.

Trying to be civil in these circumstances guarantees much more of it. If the system won't take care of it people will. That's where we are.

If you beat someone hard enough to break the bones in their face, that needs to be treated as an attempted murder. Those kinds of injuries have killed people of that age.

@Al-ny8dk

Жыл бұрын

At the very least they have been traumatized them for the rest of their lives.

Why does our judicial system hold that someone is "Not Guilty by reason of insanity" instead of "Guilty, but insane?"

@dale9724

Жыл бұрын

Because to prove guilt you must prove intent. To have intent it must be determined that the alleged assailant was copus mentus = having control/mastery of their mind.

@elizabethdavis6275

Жыл бұрын

@@dale9724 Thanks. That's always confused me, because it seemed to me that "not guilty by reason of insanity" it was messaging that the insane were not responsible for their actions, but what we're actually saying is that the insane are not capable of *choosing* their actions.

@dale9724

Жыл бұрын

@@elizabethdavis6275 At least we used to take them off the streets and put them in psychiatric institutions. If we could just improve those institutions. They are so often underfunded and terrible as a result. All the best to you.

One thing to keep in perspective and something I've learned managing Apartments is that it's always important to judge situations like these from the perspective of a single 5-foot female... I'm 6 ft 3 in 250 lb I don't think the situation would have scared or threatened me what I do think is that this Marine likely saw distress and fear from women in the subway and reacted

neither of you mentioned that neely threatened the whole train car, and was not just acting "scary". you also failed to note that penny put neely in the recovery position to await ems, showing his intent was never to kill neely.

Once Neely crossed the line of saying he was willing to hurt and kill people and didn't care if he "got a life sentence" that's when all bets are off. That marine was trained to protect civilians because that's what our military is supposed to do and his intervention is his calling in life. It's unfortunate that it caused Neely's death but they waited for the police for a long time and they didn't show up until too late. Blame the people who should have had him locked up and the cops for taking forever to get there.

You don't have to live in New York City to understand this situation. It occurs all over the country on subway, light rail and other transit systems. It's out of hand in Minneapolis-St. Paul with crack, meth, mental illness and sheer villainy. How do you always know what is the operative condition? Pollyanna beliefs that we should just be "comfortable with our discomfort" around such people does no good for anybody. There are no simple answers, but standing around like sheep doing nothing only makes things worse. Why should I know what smoking crack smells like? Why should I recognize the behavior of someone on meth? Why should I have to consider which open seat on the train affords me the best defensive position?

If I'm in that subway, I hope someone like Daniel Penny is in there with me.

@py_a_thon

Жыл бұрын

What did the dead person allegedly do to warrant a citizens arrest with what ended up being alleged involuntary manslaughter?

@anthonybryant3038

Жыл бұрын

@@py_a_thon If you have to ask that question you obviously haven't been following the story or bothered to learn about Neely's violent history.

@py_a_thon

Жыл бұрын

@@anthonybryant3038 What did he actually do that was illegal? I definitely just watched a news report that said he was in a loose or full chokehold for 15 minutes. Is that inaccurate?

@patrickh9937

Жыл бұрын

After this, there won't be.

@samanthawhang7498

Жыл бұрын

@@py_a_thon He threatened people on the train with physical violence. He said he didn’t care if he went to jail over it. He was acting erratic and out of control. He’s been arrested 42 times. He’s beaten elderly women and even attempted to abduct a child. At the time of his death he had an active warrant out on him for assault.

I've ridden BART for 30 years this is a challenging situation. I have friends who were, in a split second, severely injured. We are in a contained tube, where getting to the next car isn't always as easy as it sounds, and anyone acting erratically is concerning. A young girl was stabbed to death at my BART station. It happened in a split second and there was no reason for the attack. It feels these days like we are all in a no-win situation, and just getting to work is an endeavor. I know of no rider with zero compassion, no one is looking to be on the evening news, and, we can't be expected to fix the ills of the world in the span of our commutes.

While we all debate the motivational intent of Penny or the degree of threat Peely represented, millions of subway riders continue to be terrorized by the thought or actions of the violent and mentally ill. Riders have the right to feel safe using public transportation. It's bad enough that they have to put up with rats, grafiti, filfth, urine stink, all of that "unpleasantness" but potential harm to their lives and limbs? Let's all get real. I was a teenager and a young woman riding those subways and while there was always a sprinkling of the mentally ill wandering or sleeping on the subway cars, there wasn't the level or frequency that is experienced today. There were also a few cops at every stop so they could tend to the situation. Today you think to yourself, "What's a cop gonna do about it? There's too many ill to make a dent." Was Penny intending to kill Neely, or was he trying to be a good man and protect all the people around him? Up to the courts to find out, but if I was riding that train I know I would have appreciated his stepping up while at the same time feeling sick that we all had to witness such human suffering.

@Chalk89

Жыл бұрын

It's purely passing the buck - blaming Penny is convenient but seems like a terrible decision because now we'll see individuals just refraining to act and allowing Neely-types to terrorize the cars.

John's point about the doors slamming on the subway made my neck hairs stand-up. I was a college intern in NYC, didn't particularly like the Subway because of the seedy individuals that tend to ride it. I was shocked at how often my encounters with people like he described were. Screaming, throwing things and getting in the face of people who were simply scrolling on their phones, reading the paper/book. I had a job offer post-graduation where I did my internship but I declined - I had zero interest in remaining in NYC. That was a decade ago and by all accounts, sounds like it multiple times worse now.

@vanessacarter4498

Жыл бұрын

9 times out of 10, anyone coming through those doors are menacing.

@cyberft

Жыл бұрын

You were in New York when the downfall started. Say what you will about the man now, Rudy Giuliani wasn’t tolerating of any of this 💩and the city was safer for it. Things got slightly worse under Bloomberg, but nothing horrible, and then Debalsio was elected and all of a sudden it was a free for all.

You're accepting the ME's assessment; if Neely had been in a true chokehold for all that time, he would have been unconscious in seconds and dead in a whole lot less than 15 minutes. Something's not quite right here.

I think John would be the first to agree that every adult human is ultimately responsible for their own behavior, even if they have legitimate mental health issues.

People do not realize how difficult it is physically to restrain such a “wild” person without hurting them. My son once worked in a mental facility and was called upon to handle a 12 year old boy who was off his meds. Though my son is 6’4” and well over 200 lbs. he had to exert himself fully to control this 120 lbs boy. My son was sore for a couple of weeks there after. The marine resorts to the choke hold because he could not otherwise muscle the man. What he needed was help but probably the other men around were too afraid to intervene.

@orangefacedbuddah1776

Жыл бұрын

so a choke hold is the only way. it would be intersting in the court case whether he had a knowledge of ju jitsu or judo.Because there are many more ways to restrain someone.

@seanb5888

Жыл бұрын

@@orangefacedbuddah1776 A chokehold is the most effective and safe way for one person to restrain a resisting individual without the use of a tool such as a taser, pepper spray etc. If you know of another way please share. Any other method results in a fight in which both participants can get seriously injured. In this case, the chokehold was effective in subduing him but Penny held it too long.

@orangefacedbuddah1776

Жыл бұрын

@@seanb5888 no it isnt. I have watched untold videos were the opponent literally smothers his body,and safely restrains the attacker.There is no way that this fool should have done what he did.I am not waving a flag for the dead man,but if this was a member of your family you would see it very differently.Unless of course it was a family member you couldnt care less about.

@seanb5888

Жыл бұрын

@@orangefacedbuddah1776 To 'smother' someone, you have to force them onto the ground which isn't easy in itself if the person is resisting. This is in a confined subway car where there are seats and posts, and if Neely resists, Penny himself could be hurt. If Penny is successful, your method would require he neither slams Neely down and avoids cracking his head against the hard floor (UFC/wrestling floors are padded or springy so not as hard), but also that he doesn't bang his head against the seats or post during the takedown which could cause serious or even fatal injury. And then, assuming he is stronger than Neely, after miraculously neither injuring himself or Neely and getting Neely on the ground, he is to lie on Neely making it difficult for Neely to breathe. Also the 'videos' you watch are sanctioned matches with rules. If Penny is lying on Neely, what it to stop Neely biting, gouging his eyes or clawing him and potentially giving him a disease? The safest place is behind him. The real world is very different from matches. These are two men of a similar size and if Neely is on drugs he can have tremendous strength making any outcome very difficult to predict.

"Through no fault of their own," this may be true if the person is perfectly incapable of being rational. Still, even irrational people are responsible for the consequences of their behavior. "Society is at fault," well, this seems like a perfect way to shift individual responsibility onto everyone and no one at all. Society is the aggregate of individuals. If society is responsible, then no one is responsible. I'm not sure I'm good with that reasoning.

I really appreciate these conversations between Glenn and John - they are incredibly reasonable, nuanced, and intelligent; all of which helps me think of these types of issues in more reasonable, nuanced, and intelligent ways. Thanks

Drug use is not "no fault of their own." Especially when they were wnrolled in a treatment program and abandoned it.

@josflorida5346

Жыл бұрын

It's not "no fault of their own" PERIOD. I say that as someone who did things I shouldn't have because I CHOSE drugs. I'm accountable because I chose my friends and allowed myself to be influenced. Those are the actions that LED to the drugs. So I'm at fault

@amb-yz9ee

Жыл бұрын

Exactly

Jordan got dealt with, someone had to, the state wouldn't do it.

I've been watching you since 2020. I'm watching this today, a short three years later, and it's struck me... the quality of your video and audio is orders of magnitude better than it used to be. Nicely done, gentlemen.

Glenn, you raise an interesting point about cultural reasons behind mentally ill people trying to scare people. In Indonesia, where we lived in the 1970s, we saw mentally ill people. But expressed it by such things as sticking pieces of newspaper all over themselves. That's a really interesting area to explore.

"Through no fault of his own." These people assault others involuntarily? Hypnosis? It's not the drug use, the brain damage from it or the sheer loathing for others participating in society. It's denying them all personal accountability. Glenn is right, "it's got to be their fault even if it's not their fault."

During a shift as an RN I was attacked by a mentally ill patient who was one day post- op, minor surgery. One minute I was assessing his vital signs, the next minute I was on the floor and he was on top of me choking me, I thought I was going to die, and then he just suddenly stopped choking me, I leapt away from him and got help, scariest day of my life...turns out his psychotropic meds were improperly dosed..

You two need to widen this discussion and include a movement toward decency in the way we treat all those we encounter. Your platform is powerful and your perspectives are persuasive. Please take it beyond the 2d digital world and get out into 3d world. We really need this so we can work together instead of whimpering into more division and fear induced segregation. The kind of thinking and challenging of others that you two do is a huge part of the turn around. Show us!

I always rant crazily through no fault of my own. Thanks, John!

We need real discussion like this. Thank you

It's easy to criticize the police as John did re his own situation. What if it had been a cop restraining Neely? The city would have exploded, that's what. So why bother? Especially when the cop knows that Bragg won't do a damn thing about Neely or any other criminally insane person riding the train. Nor will he do anything about the ordinary, sane criminals we encounter on a daily basis. Which brings us back to Josh and Stephanie from Park Slope. They vote. They make choices. Like John (and my wife), they are compassionate to a fault and they vote accordingly. So, yes, they do deserve to have the criminally insane screaming in their faces and threatening them. I don't deserve it, but I'[m stuck with it until I can leave. Because at this point, I don't think it will ever change for the better.

Always time well spent listening to these guys.

I love Glenn & John who are the sharp, intellectually honest, & prudent voices that we need & the type of leadership the black community needs in these paradoxical, contradictory, divisive & enflamed modern times. However, being mentally unstable &/or rude/aggressive/confrontation/agitating/violent is not entirely “through no fault of their own.” Some have a proclivity toward mental illness but we all have varying degrees of awareness, cognizance of our actions & responsibility for how we comport ourselves. Most know what they are doing on wrong & intimidating to people. We keep blaming acts of violence & killing on mental illness. It doesn’t absolve someone categorically of responsibility & blame. We cannot arrest our way out of the problem for sure but many seem to be overly idealistic in thinking more mental health programs is the panacea for crime & violence. Who decides when crimes or acts of violence is more criminal behavior vs mental health driven. Who decides when to involuntarily commit someone like a Jordan Neely? For how long? These are not easy questions. Also, many of these arm chair analysts not only want to defund the police but also make it impossible to defend yourself as they demonize victims & deify criminals. Did you see on the news just the other day how 2 deputies barely escaped death but a passenger who pulled out a gun & shot one of the officers 3 times within seconds? These situations are foggy & hard to navigate while ostensibly easy to review from hindsight while not under the duress & stress of the moment. Such situations are not fluid & predictable. You don’t get do overs in real life. If the left had their druthers, you have to be stabbed, shot, dying or deas before you even contemplate defending yourself. Citizens are more fearful now because of raging crime. I am always vigilant im the subways & skittish even though I am a strong man - I cannot imagine how women & children feel. After Neely’s tragic death an unhinged homeless man pushed a woman’s head into a moving subway car which fractures her spine & caused head trauma. She is paralyzed. Daniel Perry was subduing Neely & considering that Mr Perry is quite built was Neely is being described as “100 pounds & frail” if he wanted to really harm him he could have. He wasn’t being aggressive or violent toward Mr Neely & it took 3 men to restrain him & they put him in a sitting up position or recovery position after subduing him. All the witnesses have come to his Mr Perry’s defense while the race baiters & selective outraged mob have attacked him with specious claims like it was racism. What a backwards world we live in. We have a right to free speech but making false accusations, using histrionics for heated political ends & using egregious selective bias to further agendas because it fits a disingenuous Social Justice ethos is just vile & disgusting. Immoral & unethical even. The really sad & tragic part is that the media, leadership, & pols politicize certain incidents more for politics versus actually caring & they deflect & distract from the real issues. Crime is raging. Public safety is paramount for government & they are failing. Police aren’t doing their jobs because they’ve been hindered, demonized & undermined by the very politicians they work for. I don’t blame them for backing off. Citizens are scared. Meanwhile the race baiters & grifters laugh all the way to the bank. The root causes & real solutions get ignored as both sides fight over who is to blame, Culpability, etc It’s ridiculous. Also we live in a world where it’s alleged that “no one is above the law.” However justice is selective due to activist DAs. Also a mob who protests should not be able influence a DA or Grand Jury through public pressure. Furthermore, a one’s political leanings or perceived partisanship shouldn’t influence whether someone who gets charged, indicted or convicted. The injection of hyper race & identity politics is so divisive & corrosive. Race is obsessed over that white people are passive because they are mortified of being racists but is now perceived as white people being guilty or week. In addition, anti-white sentiment & rhetoric is acceptable & same with black rage. It’s tolerated but all it does is confirm negative stereotypes thereby perpetuating negative things. It’s amazing how the self-awareness is totally ignored. People feel so entitled & emboldened because they can get away with it but it helps no one. It makes white people feel like they’re on eggshells while it fattens the big elephant in the room - the negative stereotype. Why is it that things have supposedly progresses & we have a more tolerant, PC, equitable, & diverse society yet things are supposedly systemically racist, racially biased, prejudiced, toxic, segregationist, & violent than before. It’s nonsensical. The media & the race baiters & grifters are to blame. It’s lucrative to stoke division & discord while making sure it’s never fixed because their cottage industry would collapse. These people are actually evil. I grew up in NY with diverse classmates, teachers, coworkers, bosses, friends, etc Most people don’t care about race. 95% of my bosses have been minorities even in the Army which was the least racist institution I’ve ever been a part of. People are brainwashed now & it’s disgusting. Those who cry racism are usually the most racist too. It’s sickening. As beneficial as the news & social media are the negative by-products such as simplistic & reductive debate & disgusting ideologies & agendas like CRT being pushed are causing a lot of harm & damage. Want to see real racism? Leave the US. The damage being done is vile & most of it is driven by greed & lust for power. Sickening.

The best reading on this story i have seen thus far.

As an Australian I just love listening to sane discussions.

You guys are pretty much spot on here. Refreshing!

Great points by both men here. Intelligent conversation not rhetoric. Thank you.

I love you guys. Two great intellects trying to be as objective as humanly possible. Argue, debate and reason until you reach a common ground.

We used to have a standard for civil commitment of “unable to care for themselves” now it’s “an IMMEDIATE danger to themselves or others”. That leaves mentally ill wandering the streets or in jail for petty crimes

thank you

Outstanding commentary. However, I would not mention your children and your location on any of your platforms.

Great discussion 👍🏾

It's NOT a tragedy imagine 6 elderly black ppl on a train a young white guy runs in screaming "GIVE ME MONEY IM READY TO DIE IVE BEEN TO PRISON" no one would of heard about it if he wasn't black

"through no fault of their own" lol John

I'm glad Glenn spoke up on the issue of "Through no fault of his own." Even with demons inside people doing destructive things are accountable for their actions.

I live one stop away from where this happened. I was at that station that day - the F has been my train for 27 years. It’s a FAILURE of this city that there have been no mental health services in the past 3 yrs. Someone very close to me (who was suicidal) needed them in 2021 and I tried for 9 months and there were no services available. That said- the subway is terrifying these days. The violence is random and shocking. This was restraining gone wrong. It’s terrifying when you are locked in a car with someone who is screaming and having a breakdown. I can’t afford an Uber and based on my riding the subway in the evening most people with any money are not riding the subway. Two weeks after Neeley I was accosted at 3:30 pm on first Avenue by a raving homeless person who spat on me multiple times before I could get away. There must be some balance here - it is disgusting that city officials used inflammatory language in tweets to divert attention from their failure to provide proper help for mentally ill people - and also sending a message that you may not attempt to protect yourself. We must have balanced, humane policies.

“thru no fault of their own??!!” So someone held a gun to Neelys head to do all those drugs that made him crazy??!!

@zhaw4821

Жыл бұрын

He was mentally ill.

@joseywales1150

Жыл бұрын

@@zhaw4821 No no he did drugs that made him crazy. I guarantee he did not come outta the womb like that. He was hooked on drugs, the same drugs that turned him in to a mentally ill person.

Thank you, Glenn. For calling out this “through no fault of their own” nonsense.

Wow. A thoughtful discussion of a tragic situation including differing opinions and a full examination of the nuances. Why don't they scream at each other and choose sides and get all ad hominin. A show like this would never make it onto cable "news".

Interesting discussion.

I’ve been waiting VERY PATIENTLY to hear you gentlemen discuss this issue! It’s nuanced, just like the amazing critiques you both give. As a train rider and someone who was in dire straits like Jordan Neely - homeless, hungry, traumatized, etc. still, I lean in support of Daniel Penny because Neely was a danger to society and I’ve been in many close brushes with the homeless men on the train (90% of the time Black) but I also think what Penny did was reckless - not reckless for him to restrain Neely, but to have the chokehold applied for so long. Then again, he did try to help the NYPD resuscitate Neely and did lean on his side which I heard someone say allegedly was supposed to let him breathe.

@py_a_thon

Жыл бұрын

The issue still exists though. Were they just running their mouth on public transport, or were they actively harming individuals? (I actually do not know) If a figure of authority asked them to leave, would they have?

@patrickh9937

Жыл бұрын

Penny's biggest mistake was looking out for others. I'll defend myself if I have to, and my wife. Everyone else is on their own.

@geekylove3603

Жыл бұрын

​@@patrickh9937 The Marine could have grabbed Jordan by his flimsy thin wrists and sat him on his bottom in 8 seconds flat.

@shannonswift2233

Жыл бұрын

@@py_a_thon The answer to your first question is the former - they were doing more than running their mouth by yelling allegedly that they were hungry, tired, homeless, etc., and did not mind going to jail for a life sentence in order to get what they wanted. Regarding: your second question, 98% of the time, police are not there on the train to adjudicate the situation. Even if they are, they may not be on the same train car and things happen so quickly that those emergency buttons aren't thought of by passengers or accessible. Neely had 42-44 arrests in the last few years; ergo, I do not know if he would have left - I suspect so, but he still did heinous things in the past to even children and the elderly which leads me to unsure ess. There NEEDS to be some kind of Curtis Sliwa-like group to de-escalate these problems and be assisted by the city; alas, I guess it would be too much to ask. Granted, I will say that the police are there maybe 50% now as opposed to a decade ago when I moved but it's maybe 1%.

@py_a_thon

Жыл бұрын

@@shannonswift2233 15 minute choke hold form, allegedly. I am sorry: yet you do not get carte blanche idealism on this one.

Here is my hot take on this, and I can say I might be wrong. We are reordering the hierarchy of society in liberal cities, and who and what the government values is shifting. Jordan Neely's life is far more valuable than the rest of us. If you are black in New York and are doing nothing but going to work and are pushed in front of the train by mentally ill black man, then there will be no protest, no outcry, no marches for you. If you are a white person who is doing nothing other than going home from work and you rent a bike and 5 young black men try and steal it from you and you protest, you will be seen as racist, doxed, put on leave at your job and blasted around the media as the very core of what is wrong with society. There have been 28 murders on the subway by June of 2023 and Neely's death was the first major outcry. For some reason being a liberal now means that all of our energy is spent protecting criminals, and there is almost no social cost the society shouldn't pay. Just like generational sin, that is now staining white Americans, liberal cities have to pay penance for locking up and pushing aside criminals, homeless people, and the mentally ill. These people are historically marginalized and so it is their turn to rest at the top of the food chain. Except for that these people are forcing people to leave the city, they are driving business away from so called marginalized communities. I don't know why but New York, SF, LA, Seattle, are consciously walking back to the 1970s, destroying business investment, and allowing murder, homelessness and crime to take over our major cities. Not an accident of economics, but conscious policies that put a kind of pseudo religious purity above all else.

“No fault of their own”. Good grief, no accountability whatsoever here. Perhaps it was the copious amount of drugs this man imbibed? Stop taking away everyone’s agency.

I love these discussions, debating from different viewpoints. I believe the solution is institutions for those who are unable to function enough to keep themselves sheltered with sanitation, and public/private partnerships to assist those who are able to rejoin society. Some will argue forcing people into care is unconstitutional, but my rebuttal is we already do this with guardianships and conservatorships. If the government can force someone like Spears to be in a conservatorship, someone who isn't a threat to anyone (but someone with lots of money for conservators to access) and has a job, roof, food and sanitation, then why can't we institutionalize those unable to shelter and feed themselves and who are sometimes a threat to others.

"through no fault of their own"... unless you are hypnotized or forcibly under some type of ingested substance the responsibility for your actions is 100% your own.

love ya!

This lawsuit will encourage people to not give a sh*t and ignore violence or imminent violence against the weak.

This video is getting censored by KZread by burying it. I can't even find it in my history. Happens a lot with Dr. Loury's videos.

For me the question is: how do we help people in a meaningful & and mutually beneficial, way, that don’t want our help?

‘Through no fault of his own…’ It is his fault, he stopped taking his meds 🤷🏾‍♂️

@zhaw4821

Жыл бұрын

Mental illness makes you think that you are ok and others are wrong. It's called Anosognosia

How John stays sane in NYC with his perspectives is amazing.

@Gnofg

Жыл бұрын

Have you ever lived in NYC?

Love the conversation. Anyone who rides the subway (DC, NYC) has come into contact with these people. And they are and can be dangerous.

We pay huge taxes as part of a contract with the state. Part of that contract is a duty to keep the citizenry safe. More and more we’re all being failed. The deceased man had 42 convictions . Many for violence. Two incidents of punching elderly people and the attempted kidnap of a 7 year old . This is a man who needed to be protected from himself as well as the public needing protection from him. How long are people expected to sit back and be willing victims, with no legal way to protect themselves for? We’re paying for services that we’re no longer receiving and the most egregious element of this state of affairs is the media’s message to the citizens. Suck it up folks because somehow you deserve this. You’re privileged; for whatever reason and this poor guy was just hungry. He was a sweet, peaceful soul who was down on his luck, wouldn’t harm a fly etc. He was a victim therefore has the right to victimise others. He should have been in a mental health facility until he was stabilised and then monitored by outreach workers to see if he maintained that stability. We can send billions to Ukraine but refuse to support our own. We’re all paying for this. We need to start demanding refunds. A tsunami of class action lawsuits would be far more effective than any vote.

I don't live in NYC, but the last time I was there I had a similar experience on the subway with someone obviously mentally ill yelling at people and causing a scene. I couldn’t get off that train fast enough.

Disagree when he says Neely didn’t deserve violence. He most certainly did deserve violence. That’s how you get violent people to stop.

Thanks guys for representing great American citizens with reasonable opinions that can look past skin color. Lets all be Americans first and stop the hate for the love of God! Thanks Glenn. First time watching I will have to check back in.

Public transportation is scary esp when homeless, mental health, under the influence ppl are running around. You don't know what they're capable of.

From I, Claudius- " Livia : You're a fool, boy, you always were. People might say it's not your fault. Well, if it's not your fault, whose is it then?"

i love you guys.

Very interesting analogy. I agree with you (through no fault of my own) and as a clinician for nearly 50 yrs and a veteran, I am appalled that Daniel Penny was held charged with a crime. Jordan Neely was indeed mentally ill, and SHOULD have had medical treatment beyond what he got. This entire episode is the responsibility of incompetent people in charge of NY who have not done their jobs. This was a tragedy that had to happen under the watch of a useless party of politicians who should be held accountable for it ALL because he was not detained until he was treated - he was let go on his own - neither the authorities NOR HIS FAMILY (how dare them "sue"!!!) gave a damn. Daniel is a hero for protecting innocent people, and the blame is on the system.

I find John and Glenn represent two different ideas that actually work well together. John is focused on the path to the present, and Glenn is focused on the path to the future. I agree with both to a degree, John talks about everyone living life through a pigeon hole, and Glenn is aboot personal agency. As humans, we are not omniscient gods, we are bound within the prison of experience and circumstance, but we do have at least some power of creation and choice within that prison. And if we choose to do so, we can expand that prison of experience and circumstance simply by choosing to experience and learn new things.

“Through no fault of their own.” How incredibly dehumanizing that statement sounds.

“Through no fault of their own?!?!” Yeah…say that when you’re or someone close to you is attacked! **Funny…I’ve never met ONE kind crazy/mentally ill person. They always remember to cause harm or they’re E-Vil doers which leads me to believe they’re not that crazy.**

@distortionhead37

Жыл бұрын

@TheKnow ...and somehow lucid enough to only attack defenseless people.

@jasper_of_puppets

Жыл бұрын

You got triggered by that phrase and completely stopped listening to John McWhorter's point. He literally gave the example of what if it were his own daughters who had to sit there and endure the threat of a mentally ill person acting erratically, and said he understood why Penny intervened.

@thatbemefool

Жыл бұрын

@@jasper_of_puppets - Nothing triggered me. That word is over used and often out of context. I watched the entire video as I do all of their videos Thank You! Assume much?

@jasper_of_puppets

Жыл бұрын

@@thatbemefool Then how did you miss the part where John specifically uses his daughters as an example of what if it's someone he's close to being in that situation? It's entirely possible to watch the entire video while missing the point.

@thatbemefool

Жыл бұрын

@@jasper_of_puppets - I didn’t miss anything. **Are you slow?** If you don’t agree with my comment, it’s okay. What’s with you weirdo? Work your way down the rest of the comments Bud…..

It is useless to talk about what someone "deserved" in a situation like this. It is also useless to talk about how to handle a mentally ill person in these situations for two reasons. 1. A threat is a threat. It doesn't matter to the people experiencing the threat, mugger, mentally ill, or even some fool play acting to watch people's reactions, they have only the information they see and very limited time to process it and respond. 2. The odds that a trained, competent professional will be on the scene to assess the situation and respond is not worth considering. I am pretty sure most of those people were very glad that someone trained to subdue violent people was there. Daniel Penny is not responsible for Jordan Neely dying. Neely introduced threat of violence into the situation, had some vulnerable person in fear of assault felt it necessary to shoot him to remove the threat that would be reasonable. Neely's friends, family and physicians share in the blame. They certainly knew how he was. They had a responsibility to do what they could to reduce the threat. Finally, DA Alvin Bragg bears responsibility. He, and the rest of the leadership in NYC have greatly contributed to the environment where this is happening. His charging on Penny is disgraceful. This is not a difficult case to sort out at all. Any consideration for the law abiding passengers on that train leads one to these conclusions.

A friend knew someone who witnessed Jordan being physically and verbally abusive. He said that the guy was going to do the same thing before Daniel interceded.

Having worked as a Nurses Aid in several nursing home with mentally diminished people, and also having dealt with homeless & mentally unstable people as a pastor, I can say that most people can conform to a certain level of accountability. It is not loving to have no accountability. Just like children who are too young to fully understand the ramifications of their behavior, but who can conform their behavior based on known boundaries, we can do the same for many mentally diminished people. We need to re-institute mental facilities and hold people accountable who present a danger to others. They will undoubtedly see it as an imposition of force, just like the child does, and it is, but it is done for their and other's benefit. Further, some will learn and grow and be able to attain more independence if given a structured environment where their basic needs are met.