A rotary helicopter engine built by Citroen in the 70s. I mean, what could possibly go wrong.

@evidentlyfuckingnot

4 ай бұрын

Grab your things we're going for a picnic

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

​@@evidentlyfuckingnotWhere are we going? All the way to the crash site!

@fidelcatsro6948

4 ай бұрын

French NTSB left the chat...

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

The French aircraft industry was very capable, and the designer from Aerospatiale was well qualified, so it's not such a wild idea.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@brianb-p6586 You obviously don't know anything about helicopters or Wankel engines lad.

A Rotary and Hydropneumatic suspension... that must be one smooth and comfortable ride!

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

It's also one big repair bill..

@einfelder8262

4 ай бұрын

Apart from the ear-splitting noise - worse than any nagging wife.

@philiptownsend4026

4 ай бұрын

I. Said that based on half the experience.

@philiptownsend4026

4 ай бұрын

@@WilhelmKarsten It isn't all about money. It is breaking new ground.

@philiptownsend4026

4 ай бұрын

@@einfelder8262 It was an ongoing development. Silencers come near the end of the project surely?

I was working as a Citroën mechanic in Sweden at the time. The GS was marketed as a sporty car with 107 hp…..but we never saw that version, only the one with a four-cylinder boxer squeezed down with the help of shoehorns and violence. I became a bit of a GS expert, personal and workshop record for lifting the engine out of a GS, 20 minutes. I owned over the years 2 GS and 2 GSA. The engines in these cars were seen as almost indestructible with some exceptions. The camshafts were badly hardened and therefore needed to be changed early on some cars. Then there were other solutions that were less good. The brake pads, especially on the early models, were pathetically small and needed frequent replacement. The rear brake pipes had an "interesting" solution to flexibility as the pipe was wrapped several turns around the center of rotation of the swing arm, first the protective layer of plastic was worn away, then the pipe was worn or rusted to the point of leaking, and it was not easy to replace. Here in Scandinavia, the cars were also generally prone to rust. The first GS I owned lost the rear subframe with wheels and tank during heavy braking, it wasn't optimal. It's funny to think back to how primitive the cars were back then.

@jagmarc

4 ай бұрын

Ah such memories. Unique cars and of another world. Change a suspension with an oil filter wrench, change a wheel without a jack. Hydraulic pipes joints seal perfect screwed finger tight. And one of best bits is the faster go over speed bumps the less you notice them

@leiflindqvist9095

4 ай бұрын

@@jagmarc Yes a number of very nice properties. What a rocketship when the model D came 1955. But I never experienced that the 150 bars could be kept in with finger tight nuts. I did experience what happened when losing a pipe without releasing the pressure with the 12 mm head at the regulator. 😵‍💫

@jagmarc

4 ай бұрын

@@leiflindqvist9095 yes done up finger tight holds the full pressure. That's on the joins that have the little insert bit of black pipe on the end. It's the rubber that does the sealing & not the tightness of the thread it's rather like an o-seal.

@leiflindqvist9095

4 ай бұрын

@@jagmarc Yeh, well I have mounted quite a few... maybe hundreds of them. Professionally they are not left finger tight, I woul say do not torque but nip up firmly. When I worked with it.....long time ago, LHM sealings were green and LHS2 sealings for cars 1966 and older were black.

@jagmarc

4 ай бұрын

Oh yes I remember more now black pipe with a thick green stripe along side. Of course nip it just tight enough so it doesn't undo but whenever try out a connection just spin it tight with fingers. I discovered it when previous owner had kept over tightening a leaking join and I tried too , it was peculiar not like a normal bundy join. Found out it's a WW1 design @@leiflindqvist9095

Having worked a mechanic gig at a Mazda dealer, I hate rotary engines. I mean it's a fascinating concept and all, but when you have a Mazda RX and need to keep it going, things can get ugly. Later RX-7's and 8's will foul the plugs (badly) if you start the engine then shut it off before it's fully warmed up. If you lose a seal on one of the rotors (common) it's time for a new engine. The back lot of the dealership where I worked was full of abandoned RX's that the owners had given up on. Some of them had less than 50K on the clock. It was a field of broken dreams.

@joerosen5464

4 ай бұрын

And to think that we were all told by Mazda that they were the ones who figured it all out by themselves & fully resolved all the rotary's flaws!🫤

@MadScientist267

3 ай бұрын

​@@joerosen5464Nobody ever heard anyone say the rotary issues were resolved lol

@joerosen5464

3 ай бұрын

@@MadScientist267 Obviously you've never seen any of Mazda's advertising, much less remember the absolute Shit Fit Mazda's Japanese management had when they were bought into (well, foreigners can only purchase 49.9% of a Japanese company...) & bailed out by Ford back in the 80's & who then installed a Westerner as the CEO & his 1st decision to save money in order to turn the company around was to announce the shit-canning of the money-losing & dead-end Rotary engine R&D AND the RX-7! The pushback from both the Japanese management & the rank & file workers was so immense that Ford was forced to walk the decision back...and that's the only reason we got to see an RX-8!

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

​@@joerosen5464Excellent comment and to add Ford divested it's interest in Mazda because of the RX8 which lost the company a staggering 3 billion dollars and bankrupted Mazda again in May 2009.

@rothens

3 ай бұрын

@@joerosen5464 well, they solved many problems with the wankel engine, and rotary is the sole reason Mazda became a known name in the industry. Of course solving many problems doesn't mean that they solved it all.

Citroën were great cars with really nice design back in the days. Nowadays they are just like all other cars, anonymous. Great video as always 🙂

@AmigaA-or2hj

4 ай бұрын

I miss the 2cv😢

@PRH123

4 ай бұрын

Not completely, but they're moving in that direction unfortunately. I was disappointed to see that the Picasso models have disappeared from their product line.

There is one only Right Hand Drive GS Birotor built entirely from parts by Sydney Australia Citroen enthusiast Greg Fienberg. Amazing talent and dedication.

Another very efficient synthesis of many sources and archives about this topic, kudos to your team & you!

The GS birotor is so different from the other GS, in term of larger wheel base for exemple, that Citroën had to register/homologate it as a separate kind of car knowned as the "GX" for the french administration (carte grise)... imagine the cost for the only few of it they sadly produced... 😮😅😢 From having seen some, the exhaust dimensions is quite impresive and visible behind the rear bumper, I guess in order to dissipate the temperature. Comotor company's former Wankel factory at Altforweiler are now TRW brakes, but the road is still named "Comotor Straße" 😊 Thanks for the use of my video at 4:50 @Visioracer 🎉

*Wankel engines are too unreliable for fixed-wing passenger aircraft, the thought of putting one in a helicopter is absolutely suicidal!*

@alexandermathar7780

11 күн бұрын

No it is not! Rotary engines do not immediately seize as reciprocating engines do.

@sandervanderkammen9230

10 күн бұрын

@alexandermathar7780 No, they simply lose power, particularly during take-off and climb out... which is when most fatal accidents involving Wankel engine failures occur... 3 recent fatal accidents all occurred at take-off or a go-around.

A great documentary. I used to have a GS and it was a good car, comfortable and real load carrier (estate version) but expensive to run as it ate spark plugs and brake pads and service interval was only 3000 miles. I had no idea that Citroen worked with rotary engines, it would be well suited to the GS.

@sealance

4 ай бұрын

Only thing I remember about my dad's GS was that the bonnet lock broke and it flapped and broke the windscreen

@adrienohmer9452

4 ай бұрын

Not to mention the exhaust "Y" corrosion, said my father who owned a GSA X3

The M35 was the Citroën prototype and in my town in France in Compiègne A Citroën collector had a copy. Thanks for this great video

A GS Birotor lives at Lane Motor Museum in Nashville.

My father bought this GS with rotary Wankel engine. It was a really great car with only two problems ! The fuel consumption was very high and and the heat renerated by the engine many time put fire to gas tank with the exhaust pipe. Citroen knew the problem and call back all owners to exchange for free all cars to GS equipped with 4 cylinders 1200cc. My father refuses the deal and keep his GS in dry place for several decade. When he died, I sell the GS wankel motor for more than 30.000 euros cash to an amateur... Was a real good deal !!! Thanks Citroen, best brand ever

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Engine reliability and premature failures was the biggest problem... a common theme for all Wankel engines.

The engine from the GS Birotor was also use vor the dutch motorcycle van Veen OCR 1000 of witch only 38 were buildt. Because of the high price and that van Veen din`t get any engines.

@fidelcatsro6948

4 ай бұрын

Wow ..imagine a gsxr1000 rotary engine bike..😂😂

Very cool video, I never knew Citroen made a rotary powered car and certainly not a helicopter!

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Both very bad ideas...

The chassis and mechanics in 2:59 simply magnificent.

An interesting video with alot of fascinating details, but completely lacking in mentioning what the problems were with those early engines (rotor tip seals severe wear & damage), or how the Wankel fiasco not only bankrupted Citröen as a carmaker, but equally so NSU...

My cat says, "Bring back the Rotary engines again!"

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Indeed, proof that cats (and rotards) know nothing about engines.

@fidelcatsro6948

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 🤬

@youtubebannedme

3 ай бұрын

​@@sandervanderkammen9230a circus in my town is looking for a new clown, you seem like a nice candidate

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

@@youtubebannedme Sorry kid, one of the most famous engine manufacturers in the world has my services fully booked until retirement.

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

@@youtubebannedme Thank you for proving my point.

The bladed assemblies on a helicopter are actually called rotors. So in this case the helicopter had four rotors. Two in the engine, one on top and one on the tail. A cool looking little helicopter. A modern version of it would be neat to see

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

*In hindsight we know what a monumentally dumb idea it was...* *Wankel engines are too unreliable for fixed-wing passenger aircraft... putting one in a helicopter is absolutely suicidal!!!*

Would love to own something so quirky as this.

A rotary with a hydropneumatic suspension, can't imagine how smooth it is

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Can't imagine how high the repair bill will be...

Great video! The same 1000cc twin rotor is used in the Van Veen OCR1000.

One of the projects that died together with the Comotor rotary engine was the amazing Dutch Van Veen OCR 1000 Wankel super bike: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZoiG289qeLeZiJM.html At the time in the 70's as a boy I was salivating at magazine articles about this motorcycle.

If citroen werent able to fulfil their responsibility to offer parts and servicing to rotary cars, I can see why their helicopter never got approval.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Aircraft engines are required to pass a reliability test by a regulator agency (like FAA or EASA) for airworthiness certification... no Wankel engine has ever been reliable enough to pass.

Maybe you could feature some small production engine makers/,builders. Id like to see you do a vid on Steve Morris engines. I also saw a brand new 2 stroke v4 aviation engine the other day that was very cool.

There was a few motorcycle companies that had Wankel rotary engines. None survived. Modern emission standards makes it very difficult to build more rotaries.

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

Felix Wankel loved Rotary powered motorcycles, the MAGOLA was what inspired him to develop his own engine. Nearly all of the major manufacturers developed a Wankel KKM57 engine (the non-rotary version) for motorcycles... most were not reliable enough to reach production. Suzuki went bankrupt but came back, Norton was less fortunate. Low performance and poor reliability prevents the Wankel engine from being commercially viable, even in applications where emissions are not a concern.

I think it's funny how all the major car makes experimented with Wankles.. Mercedes-Benz, GM, Ford, Citroen, Mazda, Russia etc... Yet all dropped them in only a couple years except for Mazda obviously. Was like a hot fad!

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

By the 1970s, most of the really big players in the Wankel development race all came to the same conclusion... that the Wankel engine is inherently inferior to reciprocating engines and it no longer had any practical potential... a tiny Japanese company that had no experience designing engines sadly, didn't get the memo.

Having owned a regular GS which was the smoothest quietest car I've ever owned I can only imagine how smooth a rotary one would be.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

You must have owned some really crap cars!

That "half litre" displacement (497.5 cc) of the M35 single rotor is for just one of the three chambers around the single rotor, so this was actually a 1.5 litre engine... reasonable for the car and the power output. Similarly, the 995 cc chamber volume of the bi-rotor means that the engine displacement is 2.985 L, with a common two-thirds rule applied to get a nominal displacement for tax (and competition) purposes of 1.99 L. Again, the power output is typical for a 3-litre engine of the time. Of course this is all the same for the helicopter engine, with a chamber displacement of 1.2 L, and so an engine displacement of 7.2 L. 170 HP or 125 kW sounds low for that displacement, as is even the 190 HP specified by other references, but aircraft engines typically run slowly and with modest output, since they must run at a high fraction of their peak output continuously. 7.2 L is 439 cubic inches, and conventional aircraft piston engines with that output typically have 360 cubic inch displacement.

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

The Birotor had a single rotor (chamber) volume of 497.5 cc, the same as the M35 and the RE-2 had twin 600 cc chambers, thus an equivalent of a 3.6 (triple of the 1.2), not a 7.2-liter, by this math.

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

@@VisioRacer The bi-rotor is 497.5 cc x 3 chambers/rotor x 2 rotors, or 3 litres (or 995 cc for one chamber in each of two rotors x 3 chambers/rotor)... as I said. The RE-2 is then 600 cc x 3 chambers/rotor x 2 rotors, or 3.6 litres - yes, triple the listed 1.2 L. I should have realized that from the internal dimensions. 3.6 L is relatively small for a 170 HP to 190 HP aircraft engine, explaining the relatively high operating speed (for an aircraft engine) and overheating problems.

1:57 That guy in the back was on the phone..

The CX was originally intended to be fitted with a 3 rotor Wankel engine.

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

Yes, indeed

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

Yes, that was explained in the video.

@alexandermathar7780

4 ай бұрын

Ok. So swapping a 500 HP Mazda 20b is legit. UUUUÄÄÄÄHH !!!

@ArnoldTriyudho

4 ай бұрын

So, Eunos CosmoX?? 😂😂

An example of a Govt in the middle of commercial enterprise. What a bad idea!! Great video as usual.

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

Indeed, vast sums of government funds were wasted on Wankel engine development... the U.S. Government pissed away Billions of dollars on Wankel engine research... all a complete failure and waste.

Crazy how so many manufacturers tried and failed to get the rotary engine concept right. But Mazda with 37 engineers managed to get a semi-reliable engine. People can hate on them, and I genuinely don't care I know myself. I've owned one and maintained it religiously and had zero issues and my compression is 7.3bar all over, the same as when I bought it almost 3 years ago. I'll admit they are inferior in almost every way to a normal piston engine but have a huge amount of charm and uniqueness to them, plus they are God's gift to Earth as far as engine notes are concerned. There's something about a almost 10 thousand rpm redline that feels like it never wants to stop!

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

Mazda never made the Wankel engine reliable, they have never made a profit from selling Wankel engines and has gone bankrupt 3 times in its short history. Mazda remains the smallest, least successful of all the Japanese automakers, notorious for its unreliable engines and cheap and nasty plastic interiors.

Thanks again

There is reason why the rotary isn't mass produced. Ask Mazda. Better just running a 2 stroke, they last longer n run way better!

The rotary engine has yet to find its niche. It's a worthy concept. Imagine a gigantic multi-rotor cargo ship rotary. It could help with the vibration/harmonics problems ship builders face.

@davidhusband5022

4 ай бұрын

um, you never herd of mazda winning le mans with a rotary engine?? it was banned after they beat the best car makers in the world, 1991, look it up.

@dadgarage7966

4 ай бұрын

@@davidhusband5022 Only Pontiac had the Le Mans, not a Mazda.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

LOL!!!😅

That would be Francs not Franks. Thancs VisioRaker

Could you do an episode about other car engines used in aviation?

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Porsche and Mercedes-Benz both achieved FAA airworthiness certification with production car engines.

Citroen should have avoided or reduced its involvement with Comotor, if not collaborate with NSU in other areas (while selling Maserati to Fiat in return for involvement with Lancia, etc). Even better if Citroen instead became involved with Alfa Romeo on the Alfasud, since there was potential for synergies to be made between them (including the Alfa Boxer) and the Giugiaro styling was reputedly offered to Citroen for what became the GS.

Once the apex seals were figured out the archilles heel of the Wankel is it's surface to volume ratio.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

No one has ever solved the fundamental flaws in the Apex seals or the terrible combustion chamber architecture.

@davidhusband5022

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 so, mazda winning le mans in 1991, beating porsche, thats not good enough for you?

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@davidhusband5022 Porsche has won Le Mans 19 times... the most successful Marque in racing history. Quoting a single, totally fluke win is hardly a compelling argument in favor of the failed Wankel engine. Mazda has never won a single world-class motorsports championship title

It was the oil crisis and the increase in petrol prices that killed Citroën's rotary engine but not the quality

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

Reliability was the fatal flaw in the Wankel engine design, terrible fuel efficiency is another serious problem

@davidhusband5022

4 ай бұрын

@@WilhelmKarsten um, you are aware mazda beat the best car makers in the world at le mans 1991 right? you know it was banned after that yeah? im so sick of explaining this to young kids like you. a lot of stuff happened before you were born, you need to do some research. mazda has won countless races with the wankel engine. its in some expensive sports cars than young guys like you will never be able to afford.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@@davidhusband5022*Porsche has won Le Mans NINETEEN TIMES and is the most successful Marque in sports car racing history.*

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@davidhusband5022 *The Mazda 787b was never banned, this is a popular but completely false urban myth.*

@davidhusband5022

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 yep,and beaten by a little mazda!

There was no mention of the comotor being used in the beautiful Van Veen OCR 1000 motorcycle. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Veen_(motorcycle)

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

Yet another costly financial failure resulting from the cursed Wankel engine. Comotor was defunct before the Van Veen entered production and the bike was universally panned by motorcycle critics.

13B swapped helicopter - let's go @RobDahm!

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

Even the asshat Dahmer isn't dumb enough to put a Wankel engine in a helicopter

That’s so interesting. Imagine a triple rotary helicopter now. I wonder if it would compete with the conventional engines used? 1:58 The guy in the back kicks a thing 😂

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Putting a Wankel engine in a helicopter has to go down as one of the dumbest ideas in history...

@0:46 You can tell that the helicopter goes like “Hon hon hon!!” With that chin.

I drove a GS with Wankel and 120 HP. A fast cool car with double the power of a boxer GS

Both the GS and the CX were originally designed for rotary engines which did not leave much space for conventional engines. The GS would have been much better if it came out with a 1500cc engine and the CX could have used the power train of the MS.

@ngauruhoezodiac3143

3 ай бұрын

The 1222cc flat four had good power ( 66hp compared with the VW's 34hp ) for its size and weight though. Not many cars with 1200cc engines could do 150km/h.

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

I think you mean Wankel engines... Citroën never made rotary engines.

@ngauruhoezodiac3143

3 ай бұрын

@@WilhelmKarsten Certainly not the kind of rotary engines that were used in WW1 aircraft. However, the Wankel engine is also called a rotary engine.

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

@@ngauruhoezodiac3143 Only Felix Wankel's DKM54 is a Rotary engine. Hanns Paschke's KKM57 design discarded the Rotary engine layout. Any questions?

I had 2 DS ,2 XM, flying carpet ,incredibly reliable ,the pneumatique doesn t exist any more in citroen cars because CEE ecologists forbid it !!!! Frexit soon or later .

Horrifying experiment indeed😮! Worth being a Patron so that I can be alternately delighted and horrified by your videos😁. You always entertain us. Cheers from NZ🇳🇿.

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

Thank you, Michael!

Wasn’t the birotor the same as the ro80?

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

It was sourced from that engine, yes

The guy in the office at 1:58 looks angry. I guess he is at the phone.

The cylindrical cooling passages appear to be a strange and relatively ineffective choice. I can only guess that the purpose was to use o-rings to seal them, rather than gaskets between housings, but with the challenges of Wankel cooling - and demonstrated cooling problems in the helicopter version - it seems like a poor design decision.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

The Wankel engines appalling lack of reliability, in particular under high loads is a terrible combination for a helicopter which typically operates at P-70% or above continuously... Wankel engines simply cannot endure this high load requirements for helicopter applications.

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

@@WilhelmKarsten that's why the load needs to be kept low, by sizing the engine appropriately.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@brianb-p6586 That would simply make it uncompetitive with reciprocating piston engines. Gas turbine engines are inherently ideal for helicopter applications. They offer the highest power to weight ratio and extremely good reliability and good fuel efficiency at high loads. Putting a Wankel engine in a helicopter is a dumb idea.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@brianb-p6586 Wankel engines are the worst possible choice for any aircraft, especially helicopters!

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

@@WilhelmKarsten actually small (a few hundred horsepower) gas turbines offer poor fuel efficiency at high loads and terrible fuel efficiency at lower loads... but they're still the effective solution for all but the smallest helicopters. Robinson's R44 and R66 (the piston and turbine versions of the same aircraft) illustrate this, with the turbine burning about 50% more fuel by volume, or 60% more by mass... but a Wankel might be almost as bad as the turbine.

мне звук работы РПД всегда напоминает звук 2Т.

The French are very strange making front wheel drive rotary powered cars? 🤪 At least Mazda decided to put their rotary engined into a car designed as a sports car or early classic that resembled am elegant James Bond style car? Mazda admired Porches design and elegant shape and they emulated that design and leveraged the light weight compact and high power output a in a light weight attractive looking design as a mitigation against rising fuel prices. Mazda really took it to the next level knowing where the French failed to market the benefits of the rotary engine? This was the failed attempted by ALL manufacturers with the rotary engine? Mazda did a full ground up redesign of making the entire car to suit the engine? They had a vision of making use of the power band and RPM low initial torque but high power output and make the car that could best utilise those engine characteristics with a light weight but rigid design. Mazda took the monocoque unibody to the next level beyond any other car manufacturer before them in order to reduce weight? Sure there were some unfair limitations put on the Japanese engineers at Mazda, even thoughout racing. All of this was aimed at trying to prevent them from succeeding, and that's when Mazda realised that they had already succeeded! To be banned from Le Mans because of entire manufacture protest..... Mazda took that as an honour! To have their biggest most powerful rivals so scared that they effectively did what the Biden adminstration is trying to do to Trump...... Guess what? It had the same effect. It made Mazda more famous and shot them to fame with their 2.4L naturally aspirated motor just killing the competition even in the endurance races where it was ubiquitous belief that Mazda was doomed to failure with their "delicate" rotary engine? And boy were all the naysayers wrong! Mazda didn't just flip the field they were getting 1st 2nd 3rd entire podiums at track after track until it upset all the racing teams so much that they protested to not compete unless Mazda was removed from the Le Man's. Spoilt sports. Unsportsmanship behaviour. But all these sook manufacturers decided it wouldn't be embarrassing if they all did it together and made a media scandal accusing Mazda of cheating. Low balling behaviour that the world of motorsports an embarrassment. But because of the ubiquitous and unanimous nature of what was at stake Le Man's freaked out that their aired World stage event was going to go down in flames with the world's largest boycott? They weren't going to allow it to happen and Mazda simply packed up their team ready to leave rather than give them appeasement and a double edge sword to embarrass them even further it was a middle finger and bitter sweet because Mazda knew they had already won and the entire world knew it too! Mazdas entire race team in front of furious race teams and event organisers, humbly did a bow of respect. They didn't argue or even try to fight. This here is 100% one of the best and most respectful examples of sportsmanship in all of history! It took a long time after the controversy settled but this decision played much guilt on the industry and it saw a respect towards Mazda throughout the entire automotive industry across the world. They went on to win Bathurst many times and then when the FD RX7 came out John Bow literally destroyed porches record in a completely stock standard engined RX7 (car had suspension and roll cage etc all the things required for competitive racing) and this brought manufacturers to a stand still. Porsches track people were initially furious and saw it as a thumbing nose gesture (especially with accusations on cloned designs FC RX7 to Porsches 944 controversy) but Porsches CEO at the time made news headlines where he publically congratulated Mazda and expressed how proud he was with their persistence. This was an extremely graceful and respectful appreciation from one of most revered automotive manufacturers in history! This marked the moment in history of ending all hate towards the rotary, it was an act of forgiveness and everyone knew that. This opened the doors for Mazda in many ways and earned a special place in the hearts of enthusiasts the world over. There are still some haters but that's changing especially with continued development outside of Mazda and Mazda racing that is kind of taking the world by storm at the moment. Respect to Mazda you legends and f*** you Top Gear you arseholes 🖕 I f***ing hate old Top Gear and love new Top Gear for this reason alone. Jeremy, James and Richard deserve to be spat on

@jameshatton4405

4 ай бұрын

I know I crapped on a lot about Mazda in my post yesterday, but today I'm watching this video. I've time stamped it just so anyone who could even be bothered reading my post. This explains everything about Mazda and the rotary engine! kzread.info/dash/bejne/qZmatZawkqnFYag.htmlm21s

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

You are an ancient dinosaur.. The last of the rotards! Mazda has never been a performance Marque, they make cheap and nasty entry-level cars for first time buyers... not enthusiasts.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@jameshatton4405 It's called a Wankel engine, it was the biggest failure in the history of the engine manufacturing industry.

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

So, were the rotary versions of the Mazda Familia small family car (the R100), the Mazda Grand Familia or 808 (the Savanna/RX-3), and the pickup truck designed as sports cars, or were they "James Bond style" (whatever that means)? Mazda didn't shift the rotary to performance cars until the RX-7 and RX-8.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

@brianb-p6586 The RX8 is not a sports car, it's a sedan... marketed to women and couples with small children.

Its a pity Citroens or Jags or Alfas were not up to scratch when I was ready to buy a car in 2005. An e90 was perfect though not the 4 banger though unless diesel. I think mk4 Golf diesels changed the perception of diesels although they cheated about emissions and were probably the only ones caught for cheating. 😂😂😂

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Actually 10 manufacturers were eventually caught cheating on Diesel emissions, including Mazda who was also banned from selling Diesel engines in the U.S. VW was only mentioned because the sale of its Diesel models had a significant impact on EV sales

The best application for a Wankel rotary is applied as a airpump supercharger on a straight 6 powerplant.

@davidhusband5022

4 ай бұрын

or to win the le mans in 1991,and then be banned?

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Felix Wankel invented the concept as a supercharger, not an engine. It was his co-worker at NSU Walter Froede who had the dumb idea to turn it into an engine... with disasterous results for NSU!

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@@davidhusband5022Please refrain from posting lies and ignorant misinformation about Wankel engines lad.

@godfreypoon5148

3 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230Speak for yourself.

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

​@@godfreypoon5148*I ONLY SPEAK THE TRUTH.* *MAZDA HAS NEVER WON A SINGLE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP TITLE AND HAS LEFT RACING.*

09:55 When video of the tractor

These are a bad idea, Wankel engines. But they would probably work in aircraft as diesels, and in power yard tools such as lawnmowers, weed whips, and chainsaws. Great video!

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

Wankel engines were a epic failure in all those applications

@vitordelima

4 ай бұрын

They triggered some people due to the obvious potential to compete with turbines but now the damage was done and people will repeat the same nonsense forever.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@vitordelima Wankel engines can never compete with gas turbines... thats just pure ignorance.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

​@@vitordelima *Not this stupid Rotard again.* *Please stop posting lies and ignorant misinformation about Wankel engines that you are not qualified to discuss intelligently.* *Turbines offer an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE greater Horsepower-to-Weight Ratio performance and Reliability.* *They offer fuel efficiency and compactness that is unmatched by the Wankel engine.*

@Flies2FLL

4 ай бұрын

@@vitordelima The advantages of the Wankel is small size and weight. The glaring disadvantages were the fact that they were thermodynamically inefficient compared to piston engines, since they cannot effectively recover power from the burning charge. This is why they have extremely hot exhaust gases. But also, due to the enormous "squish" area in the combustion chamber, there is a lot of fuel that goes unburned and as a result the emissions are TERRIBLE. They were maintenance nightmares for a long time, but Mazda perfected them to the point where they can last as long as piston engines. -I might recommend doing some research before posting.

Who would trust a french helicopter let alone one with a french rotary

The NSU SPider was the only good looking Citroen

I still don't understand why these Engines never took off. They look Great on paper.

and that's another car that needs a rotary replacement. this time, it seems, an rb20.

At least the French tried and persisted for as long as the money held out, as the well worn saying goes, "ah, what might have been"

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

BMW took one look at the Wankel engine and said "Hell No!"

@anthonyxuereb792

3 ай бұрын

They know best ​@@WilhelmKarsten

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

@@anthonyxuereb792 They didn't go bankrupt like Citroën, NSU and Mazda...

This thumbnail is 100% getting changed

@sebastiangarkov9590

4 ай бұрын

Why?

@_TCR_

4 ай бұрын

Yep,just got changed

@snubbelbuff1471

4 ай бұрын

Just changed! Well done!

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

You know why? Because to hit the best performance, there are multiple thumbnails used and they swap around hourly. After sufficient time and data acquired, me with my team can analyze the data and choose the best performing thumbnail to increase the potential reach of the video. Some thumbnails simply perform better than others and often you would not guess which one would that be in any particular case.

Where is the BMW F1 turbo video ?

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

Will be reposted, the F1 did not like using their 80s footage

3 wheels on my wagon😊😅

Of good interest.

yea, kinda horrifying

Now cars r all the same base :)

Time 237. . . . Cyber Truck . ..

@sandervanderkammen9230 You don't know until you try, I respect them for that, but yes, ultimately a bad idea.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

It has been tried, many times in fact, some of the biggest names in aviation have tried to develop a Wankel engine reliable enough to pass an FAA or EASA airworthiness certification... After spending several decades and Billions of dollars... Not a single Wankel engine has ever passed the minimum reliability test for passenger aircraft.

@bobhill3941

4 ай бұрын

​@@sandervanderkammen9230Thanks very much.

Probably would had been a good agricultural engine if humanity accepted and adopted it!

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

John Deere, Yanmar, Krupp and Duetz and developed Wankel engines for agricultural applications, they were all canceled in failure. Wankel engines lack the torque and durability for use in agricultural equipment.

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

Wankel engines don't make any TORQUE... they can't be used in heavy duty applications... they are too weak!

A rotary helicopter built by the French 💀

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

Wankel engine helicopter...

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

Adam's-Farwell is the only Rotary powered helicopter, it was designed by Emile Berliner

In the list of car manufacturers that fell into the Wankel affair you forgot... yes, Alfa Romeo! kzread.info/dash/bejne/n4KDmJuMdJnUYMo.htmlsi=HSBOUumlwOHsMJxa

Le Dorito

Ai generated thumbnail?

Misunderstood Rotaries. Engine out TWICE a year, hands-on, oversized 2-Stroke basically. Luckily, it's lightweight, but I don't believe they were designed easy to remove and reinstall. Would have been more successful that way.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

Wankel engines, nor Rotary. All Wankel engines operate using the 4-stroke principle. The Wankel was plagued with horrible reliability

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

There is nothing "2-stroke" about a Wankel engine.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@retiredbore378 Nonsense! Port induction is not unique or a defining feature of engines that operate using the 2-stroke principle. There are 4-stroke engines that are piston ported, and 2-strokes with poppet valves.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@retiredbore378 That's completely false, all Wankel engines have at least 3 combustion chambers, you can't compare a 3-cylinder, 4-stroke to a single cylinder 2-stroke.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@retiredbore378 That's why metered oil injection with a throttle valve input is the preferred method of lubrication, premixing a Wankel engine is very problematic in most operating modes, in particular during engine braking.

It would have been a great battle to see what gave up 1st. The engine or the electrical system. 😊😮

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

The only thing in the world less reliable than French electrics is the Wankel engine

Was Mazda the only company not bankrupted by adopting the wankle?

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Mazda went bankrupt 3 times, was bought by Ford from a Japanese bankruptcy court auction.

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

Yes, basically. Ford did buy a larger stake, but not a majority and the Mazda brand is still under major ownership of Mazda Motor Corporation.

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

@VisioRacer Ford was the winning bidder when the bankruptcy court auctioned off the companys assets, Ford owned controlling shares in Mazda from 1979 until 2009 and had 4 Ford appointed CEOs... Mazda was the First Japanese automakers to have a non-Japanese CEO, the American Henry Wallace.

@sandervanderkammen9230

3 ай бұрын

@VisioRacer Mazda became bankrupt again in 2009 and is currently owned by its creditors, a partnership of 3 Japanese banks.

Volkswagen bought NSU in 1969

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

_NSU Motorenwerke GmbH._ merged into Audi as part of Volkswagen-Audi Grouppe. Audi still occupies some original NSU factories.

@seventysevenfiji

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 absolutely correct. It's actually a fascinating story, including the involvement of Mercedes Benz. But it happened in 1969, whereas Comotor was founded in 67 and VW had no say in the initial, Luxembourgain company. After 69 they shut down the whole Wankel engine program. Another factor is the very active involvement of Henk Van Veen

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

@@seventysevenfiji Indeed, Mercedes-Benz (Daimler-Benz) was a huge player in the Wankel development race in the 1960s at one point spending as much a 1 million USD per month in research and development. The M950F was a masterpiece of design and significant development of Diesel Wankel engines as part of the _Diesel-Ring_ partnership with Deutz, MAN and Krupp.

@seventysevenfiji

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 a very interesting chapter of automotive history, for sure. Plus the ownership of the Auto Union by Mercedes Benz, which merged with NSU and so on so forth. Historically, all the automakers are much more intertwined

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

@@seventysevenfiji Mercedes-Benz was never affiliated with Auto Union... it is often mentioned in reference to the "Silver Arrows" when they competed together in pre-war Gran Prix racing. German race cars are traditionally painted silver. Auto Union was Audi, DKW, Horch and Wanderer Cheers!

- yo, monsieur, ¿why did they bring you here? - ¿moi? Imma four wheel drvie hell of a tractor, ¿you? - amma rotary, dude, - ¡no way!

Pls never say museum again

It's not franks , it's Francs

Had Citroen not gone down the rotary path, I doubt their financial position would have changed and not gone bankrupt. Ugly cars with over complicated and needless features that made them more expensive to make and maintain had already set their destiny. The foray into the rotary engine made the path a shorter one. It took the clever Japanese over at Mazda to make the engines work and become reliable (up until the RX8 at least)

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

That' so ironic considering Mazda has gone bankrupt 3 times trying to sell Wankel engines and remains red-headed stepchild of the Japanese auto industry!

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

FYI: no one has ever solved the reliability problems with Wankel engines.

@Danger_mouse

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 Well that's odd, because wheh I worked for Mazda, we routinely had them untouched into the 200k plus for the series 5/6/7 turbo RX7s. Cars just driven as normal road cars and not raced. Certainly, the later Renesis RX8 engine was definitely unreliable, they tried too hard to make efficiency and emissions targets and probably should have quit at the end of the RX7.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

@@Danger_mouse Wow! That biggest load of BS I have ever read on KZread. Everyone EVERYONE knows that these engines are horrible unreliable and were plagued with premature engine failures and low compression damage. Comments like that make you sound completely delusional and a big fat liar!

@Danger_mouse

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 Funny, I'm aware of two times where they had financial issues. The 70s where the fuel crisis meant rotary power was thirstier than piston power and Ford bought into Mazda with just under 25%, and then raised this to just over 33% in the 90s due to the Japanese economic downturn that sunk several Japanese car brands. With a Ford head on the board during the 90s, the whole line-up of vehicles went from class leading to bland white goods, Mazda then they turned profitable again and bought out the Ford options down to 3% over a period of time and they started building nice cars again.

🥝✔️

When I hear stories like this I’m pissed off that everyone is so stupid and values money so much. The story literally starts with a car company tried to give us an excellent car and went bankrupt for doing so. We live in a shittier world because of the way we’ve decided money works.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Money is the purest form of Democracy, it allows customers to vote with their money... a vote that manufacturers hear loud and clear, they live or die by your vote.

@Vaasref

4 ай бұрын

@@sandervanderkammen9230 Money is such a good example of democracy that 1% of the people are hoarding all of the democracy for themselves.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

@@Vaasref There will always be a 1%... with Democracy at least everyone still gets to have a car.

Weirdo's smh lol. French definitely enjoy being different. The purpose built Race Engine, but in a non-RaceCar.

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

Wankel engines perform poorly in race cars too

*Wankel engine in a Helicopter???* *Now there is the dumbest idea in history!!!*

@brianb-p6586

4 ай бұрын

It's not, really. There have been many adaptations of Mazda rotaries to aircraft - they work.

@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke

4 ай бұрын

@@brianb-p6586 *That is patently false! No aircraft manufacturer has ever successfully used a Wankel engine in a type-certified passenger aircraft application.* *No Wankel engine has ever been reliable enough to pass a FAA or EASA reliability test for Airworthiness Certification.* from

@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke

4 ай бұрын

@@brianb-p6586 *You will find only a handful of Mazda engines installed in Uncertified, Experimental, Amateur built aircraft.* *They have proven very unsuccessful and extremely dangerous.*

@godfreypoon5148

3 ай бұрын

Your use of bold is the dumbest idea in youtube comment history.

The French need to stick with their strengths, which are cuisine and wines. Leave the engineering to the Germans and the Japanese.

Before tittling on horrible french experiment Just remind absolutely ALL gears in world use Citroën patent Laws, human right, Grand Prix, tracks, Rallye, postal service, airplane, modern boat, modern engine, etc... Are all French founders and inventions. ❤

Mazda developed rotary engines for RX-7 and RX-8. Rotary has won ALL Formula One races, until they introduced a less displacement rule. It was not fair, the smaller rotaries did not stand a chance at winning a race. Protests did not help. They refused to make rules that got rotary engines in the same power region. In fact that is not easy, but the way it was done is not okay. My suggestion would be, do a rotary racing class, problem is, nobody will watch the piston F1 anymore. Rotary is really like the time F1 was V12 engines on wheels, racing drivers got killed like flies, it was too spectacular to be good. But okay, before you buy a rotary car, you must know about the maintenance, at around 60K miles, you need some essential parts replaced, the disks! The engine must be disassembled. And when you are not a car enthusiast having a workshop doing that yourself, a rotary will turn out to be expensive. Which explains young dudes riding such a sports car, still having no idea why only whopping rich, or hard working petrol heads own these cars. Extreme high revvs explain why you can expect lots of horse power, and why it feels different from piston engines, but do know, there is expensive wear and tear, you will need saving money for those revisions. Each time you think nah, I buy a newer one, these things are a bit more rare and wanted.

@WilhelmKarsten

3 ай бұрын

Your comment is hilarious! Are you a professional comedy writer?

@MilanStojakov

2 ай бұрын

Mazda was never involved in F1 and there was never rotary engine in F1

@sandervanderkammen9230

10 күн бұрын

Lay off the pipe buddy... just say no to crack

Ah yes Citroen, world renowned for wacky designs that had all the durability of a paper bag in a monsoon. Not exactly the ideal manufacturer of a Wankel engine :-)

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

And of course, the Wankel is far from an ideal engine.

BIGGEST FAILURE IN THE HISTORY OF ENGINE MANUFACTURING

@fidelcatsro6948

4 ай бұрын

I wont say failure... just that the world wasnt meoweady for it back then..

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

@@fidelcatsro6948 The Wankel engine was an epic failure...

@dantevito1193

4 ай бұрын

Mazda has used it successfully in some cars. I'd say a failed car engine type would be a gas turbine (like Crysler used)

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

​@@dantevito1193Mazda lost billions of dollars on Wankel engines and has gone bankrupt 3 times.

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

​@@dantevito1193Gas Turbines have been hugely successful and completely dominate commercial ans military aviation, they are cutting edge technology in marine applications and the power generation industry. The Wankel engine by comparison has been a disasterous failure.

You changing the thumbnail twice is a game I won't be a part of 👎 unsubscribed.

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

You seem to have no idea what is thumbnail testing to analyze data and use the best thumbnail afterwards. This is the game KZread pushed all the youtubers to do and soon it is going to be a YT feature. Many of YTers do that and you have to, otherwise you may struggle with the reach. Finding the best performing thumbnail is crucial for your video and channel growth in the future. And you are here just watching videos for free complaining. Very supportive

@orderofmagnitude-TPATP

4 ай бұрын

Why is that an issue?

the word "horrifying" made me block this channel

The video was good, but the accent is so bad it's barely listenable

No need to exclaim that it was horryfiyng, its french, it goes without saying

@WilhelmKarsten

4 ай бұрын

Of course it was a a failure... a Wankel engine, it goes without saying...

What a lie it's not that bad do your research properly

@sandervanderkammen9230

4 ай бұрын

The Wankel engine is the biggest failure in the history of the engine manufacturing industry... they are so unreliable that they cannot be used in type-certified passenger aircraft

@VisioRacer

4 ай бұрын

I actually did my research properly. If it was 'not that bad', there would be more of them made due to its actual benefits, but there is not. Mazda is the only one amongst the big manufacturers that use it and even they who possibly have the most experience with it only introduced a rather uninteresting MX-30 hybrid car after several years. I would not be surprised if somebody told me that it is only due to the sentimental value for Mazda. Don't get me wrong, I love rotaries, but you really cannot say that this is a lie and that it is not as bad as the video states. The rotary project bankrupted both Citroen and NSU, that is a fact.