PSA: There is a stereotype on pservs that all people with high ranks got them by dodging, and I know I'm opening up a big ass can of worms with this video. I fully expect people to come out of the woodworks saying that I dodged for my rank on X server. Let me tell you here and now - I am no dodger. I've never dropped a queue while in a Premade & I've never abused the queue system in any way on any server that I've played. I've lost plenty of games; I've even lost games on purpose because I had been awake/playing for a disgusting period of time and was exhausted & mentally broken. But I've never dodged and I can guarantee that nobody who says I did will be able to prove it, because proof doesn't exist of things that didn't happen.

@andreeaass456

5 жыл бұрын

You just missed the point of the entire video. I guess either you didnt care to watch it or you're just stupid and/or ignorant. Imagine being a casual pvper, or a new player who wants to get into pvp. You queue up solo for a bg, only to be put up against a full premade who completely facerolls every game vs such players. The new player either leaves the bg, or atleast won't queue up for another one. Can you tell me how that is "a great thing", or a healthy pvp enviroment? No you can't, because it's not.

@florianwewers6981

5 жыл бұрын

@@andreeaass456 ranker don't want a healthy pvp enviroment, they want fast honor and thats it why would i care about some casual that ques up 10x a week. Better stop them from quen up so i don't get them in my team to suck ass

@theodorthiele

5 жыл бұрын

@@florianwewers6981 I sincerely hope you're a big fat troll, otherwise I hope that you and people like you stay the hell away from Classic.

@Cy-Tilez

5 жыл бұрын

@Florian Wewers If rankers have the "fuck ya'all" attitude you are imbued with , then what they want and need should certainly not be anywhos priority. To say that BGs is not for fun!? LOL If you dont think BGs are fun, then ranking doesn't sound like a farm for u buddy.

@spacetime-boundaixitl3490

5 жыл бұрын

investigate and ip ban queue dodgers EZ Clap

Thank you for making this video - this issue ruined my experience on the private servers I have played on, as a somewhat casual player that wanted to get into PVP, but solo-queued. Solo ranking was not only a tough and long process, but made close to impossible by premades. Another consequence of dodging, I found, is that there's simply much fewer people PVP'ing, as it sucks having an 80% chance of just being camped at GY - which then further increases the risk of someone PUG'ing running into a premade. For the time I played BGs on Nost there would often only be 2 WSGs running, on a server with that many people, that's insane. I really hope someone at Blizzard watches this video and makes sure to bring a fix on the table. Also really nice to hear a hardcore PVP'er bring this up, I was fed up by the "that's the game, git gud" answers to various posts I've seen around.

As someone who grinded to R10 solo... Those premade dodgers made my blood boil since it was impossible to rank up. I didn't have the time to invest in r14 but I atleast wanted to hit rank 11 for the mount, but unfortunately I never was able to achieve R11 and just gave up and decided to just raid for gear.

@uhvoidme6321

5 жыл бұрын

literally same =/

@blownspeakersss

5 жыл бұрын

R11 is the highest rank that a "normal" person can actually achieve. Of course, it still requires a lot of time, but not nearly as much as R12+. Luckily, by R11 you get the full blue set and epic mount, so it's a great rank to stop at.

@silversurfer8818

5 жыл бұрын

@@blownspeakersss I manged to get to R13, but i could not compete against the account sharers - i did know one guy though that manged to get R14 just by solo playing, granted, it was before cheating became more prominent. And back then Emerald dream EU, almost 90% of the total players were alliance - which meant they could not afford to dodge games or they would have to wait for another 40+ minutes for the next game to pop up! fortunately i was horde and instant queues!

@puffin-onehandedgamer1164

5 жыл бұрын

same... I felt the need to join a "Marshal team" if I wanted to get my mount and so I did. I did get it. all I wanted was that mount.

@puffin-onehandedgamer1164

5 жыл бұрын

@@blownspeakersss you are right.. Rank 10 gets you full blue set and then 11 gets you the epic mount. rank 1, tabard, rank 2 trinket, rank 3 cape, rank 4, neck piece, rank 5 bracers, rank 6 (officer rank), Officer tabard and potions, rank 7, blue quality boots and gloves, rank 8, blue quality chest and legs, rank 9, battle standard, rank 10 blue quality helmet and shoulders, rank 11, epic mount, rank 12 epic boots, pants and chest, 13 Epic-quality helm, shoulder armor, and gloves and 14 you got epic weapons.

A progressive debuf system would work even better. 1st Offense: When any player quits a BG queue, he receives a 15 minute debuff. The system begins running a program to determine if players who deserted the queue are playing together. The program makes a list of all players who deserted, and if those players desert a second time, and it is found that the deserters are playing together, the deserter penalty increases, assuming at this point that they are attempting to dodge. 2nd Offense: The second time anyone from that list quits at the same time as several other players, each player in the list can not queue FOR ONE HOUR, and there is a significant reduction to their damage and other stats. Thus attempting to dodge has penalties that carry over into PVE and world PVP, making it even less desirable to chance dodging. 3rd Offense: The program continues to run. If anyone with the 2nd debuf deserts again and the program finds that he quit the queue at the same time as several other players, it is assumed that he is trying to intentionally cheat the system, and he is banned from battlegrounds for 24 hours. Although each player with the 3rd debuff May enter battlegrounds in 24 hours, the program continues to track each player for 48 hours, and as soon as they try to dodge again, debuff #3 is reapplied. This system does not depend on people queuing as a group, because it is looking for individual names and individual offenses in comparison to other names; not premade groups. It is true that some innocent players may get caught up in receiving a first offense debuff. However: a) It will discourage dropping queues server-wide; b) innocent players who drop out of queue apparently didn’t want to enter a battleground at the moment anyway, and a 15 minute wait to re-queue shouldn’t effect them anyway; c) it is unlikely that innocent deserters will be unfortunate enough to get caught up in a 3rd Offense - especially considering that with this system less people will chance dodge attempts, making it less likely for innocent players to get caught up with offenders. The program to implement this would not be very complicated. The coding would be rather simple. It simply makes a list of deserters, and compares names on the list to other deserters - and once a character name is flagged, it stores that name in a secondary list that determines if that character is continuing to be flagged. Each offense moves the name to a new list and applies debuffs. And each name is cleared from the list once a timer (15 minutes, 1 Hour, or 24 hours) has transpired. The system should not get overwhelmed because the harsher the penalties, the less names to be added to the program’s list. -Rx

@Regunes

5 жыл бұрын

Someone used his brain

@Verticom10

5 жыл бұрын

Me gusta

@Rall707

5 жыл бұрын

Please also post this other places than yt comments

@IamNemoN01

5 жыл бұрын

Rall707 You’re welcome to post it somewhere where it will help. I’m not on any forums devoted to such topics. :)

@Ryan_hey

5 жыл бұрын

@@IamNemoN01 WoW has forums, one section is labeled "Classic".

Very good video Ohhgee! This has definately been an issue on every private vanilla server I've played on so far. It always turns out the same way and it leaves you with 2 options. You either try to get yourself a spot in the Q-dodging premades or you stop doing Battlegrounds, get your gear from raids and do world PvP stuff. Which is not too bad but I think it's sad because so many players (especially more casual PvPers like me) gonna turn away from Battlegrounds. Battlegrounds becomes just a place for the top premades to grind out their honor.

Turtling and coördinating a pug against a premade was one of the coolest things to do. Especially in AV & AB. In many cases you get overwhelmed. But when you start to break their offense & push through, it's just glorious. However you're not wrong in that dodging is something that needs to be adressed.

Loved the video. Well articulated and written, and as much as I'm a 'no changes' game I can kind of get behind doing something about this.

can someone tell me which addon he uses for his portrait ? please.

Great video and great points. Thank you for explaining que dodging. (I've played wow for years as a casual but never understood why I kept fighting well organized groups like you mention.) And yes, it was very frustrating to always get bulldozed for days and days until I was able to get a LITTLE bit of honor to get some basic gear pieces. Yes this issue needs to be addressed. Hopefully they will have servers that let populations vote on features they want added in or more traditional to just let it be original, broken, vanilla.

At the opening, I thought you were going to talk about the exploit about teleporting under the staircase in AV horde general entrance with mage, from where you can AOE without anyone touching you.

Wauw. Another video by you that I agree with more or less from start to end. Ranked to 13 on a private server and I can say this is a huge issue. Especially because if solo queue'ers find themselves fighting premades 80% of the time they will eventually just stop playing which just leads further down the negative spiral. I fully agree with you on the deserter debuff for dropping queue. The remaining problem then becomes if teams dodge by swapping from WSG -> AB or visa versa. It's crucial Blizzard finds a solution for this problem.

@-41337

5 жыл бұрын

Only being able to queue for a single bg at a time solves the second issue. Literally absolute solution for the issue. Hopefully this reaches Blizzard, or anyone give a shit enough to fix this.

@drakeon6681

5 жыл бұрын

It's to bad that they've already said they won't change a single thing in classic cause then it wont be classic if they did

A very welcomed and needed video. Considering the hype about Classic, all the info/guides/knowledge players have now compared to back in 2004, people are already planning ahead and setting up groups and queing as 4 man (in 2 grps) as it will take away for them to be qued against other premades. WsG especially 4-8 of 10 in same grp vs pugs and farm them 24/7 before they just quit. I fully agree on what you say and +1 from me. Played this since open beta days of vanilla and I hate to see Classic going downhill for issues like this as one good example. As a grown up with a family, fiance and work (was 25 in vanilla), in short I got more responsibilities then just myself so going for R14 in Classic is something I am not aiming at. Same reason I am considering going (rp)PvE this time. Don't see myself having fun coming home from a hard day of work, spend some quality time with my family and play some WoW, just to be ganked 24/7 in STV, Searing G and such by all the level rushers and what not. Last time I played on a PvE server had loads of PvP, even Wpvp so you got your action, minus the griefing.

@brandonchelsea4506

5 жыл бұрын

let me explain one thing to you dude. private servers have very small player bases. in vanilla 1.12.1 there were battlegroups linking multiple servers when it came to BGs. it will be impossible to dodge in classic wow because if you have 20 servers in the same battlegroup, each with 2k online players at least ( 40k ) you won't possibly be able to spy on the enemy premades...

@Cozmoz79

5 жыл бұрын

@@brandonchelsea4506 Called cross server pvp, yes I know. If you're saying this is or will be no issue then why don't you pick on the uploader here telling he is wasting his time. But jokes aside. This did happened in vanilla. You are telling me this is not going to happen in Classic unless something happenes? Right. Even videos from Kargoz (assuming you know who he is) interviewing those who tell more or less exactly how to do this. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qWl-zrSAmqy2m8Y.html. Played this since open beta days. This is not about private servers, obviously. Was 25 back in 2004 and unlike many I did not play a minute on any private server. So "my hype is real" and want what's best for it. Thanks for your reply...

I'm glad I came across this video. It reminded me of the experiences of BGs from back then that I had forgotten. I don't like the idea of blizz changing much in classic, but this is something I can get behind. I pugged the majority of the time and went off against pre-mades ALL THE TIME. And lost. Almost every single time. Doing battlegrounds became tedious and not enjoyable compared to the earlier levels of battlegrounds.

this is an issue that goes more or less ignored in a number of MMOs. Thanks for the video, man

I feelt a bit bad for not seen you until just recently. Saw most of your wow related videos and letting you know you got yourself another subscriber and welcome to the family! 40yo oldschool gamer signing off for now.

I love that the no changes movement is dead and we can finally start having constructive discussions that arent ruined by mindless chanting. This is a legitimate issue that needs to be addressed.

being average pvp player since nost I heard about the issue of queue dodging and roughly knew that it mainly concerned the premade area of expertize, but never went too much deep into what caused it. Very informative video, I'm sure I'll enjoy any other pvp oriented content here since, despite pvp is what I'm lacking at, I know I need to improve it more to be a better player in general. You've got a new sub ;)

With battle net integration and location of friends (who may be opposing faction), spying won't even require an opposing faction alt.

I remember for a long time when BGs first hit, Horde PUGs were absolutely steamrolling the Alliance on my server, because Alliance massively outnumbered Horde, and so Horde had more PVP experience (our towns were always being raided, and we had rapid queue times). Then somebody realised that you could do the premade thing, and we slammed into a brick wall; facing the same damn Alliance premades over and over and over. They out-geared us, and used every copy'n'paste "technically legal" trick in the book. They farmed us. It was a stupid system, allowing full premades to go up against PUGs and looking back, it did seem a little suspicious that they were always fighting us, the PUGs, and never seemed to come up against other premades... It never occurred to me that people would be so sleazy and incompetent as to actively pursue a LACK of challenge like this; literally avoiding any battle they might not win. But I guess I was being naive. And the messed up thing is, we weren't "casual". We were pretty hardcore PVPers. But as "hardcore" PVPers, we were in it for the battle. For the fight. For the challenge. We leveled up on a PVP server for a reason - we fought our way to 60, in constant danger. It was a thrill. And these buttholes came along and twisted the entire definition of "hardcore PVPer", and made a mockery of the "honor" system. As for solutions... why not just prevent any grouping in PVP for the non-premade queue? Literally, not even 5-mans. Just add a party check - if you're in a party, you can't queue. Cancel pending queues for other BGs once you join a BG (without penalty). And then when it comes to matching people into a game, rely on shuffling - sure there's a chance that a bunch of people who know each other will join the same game (especially at quiet times or on low pop servers), but there's still a random element involved. If you then couple this with a debuff that prevents queuing for a few minutes if you quit or fail to join, you would make dodging so tedious to achieve, it would be far less a problem.

@user-cp9id1mj8b

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah what kind of devastating effect would it actually have if premades got removed completely? People still get their ranks, the people who play most still get the highest standing (nothing you can do about this) but the whole system is just so much more fair for everyone involved. If i'm missing anything please someone shut me down on this.

@47StormShadow

5 жыл бұрын

You cant remove pre mades in any practical way because people will just synch up solo ques and use voice chat.

@palestinevideos2025

5 жыл бұрын

@@47StormShadow randomise the and make them impossible to sync. Make them pop at random different times. It increases wait times bit but it will stop that.

@Drazex_0

5 жыл бұрын

just do 5man max pre-grp and separate que or +5 no better rewards just different que style, I didnt have a problem hitting GM pre- original naxx eara solo qued or 5man grps on my pally, so i dont see why there needs to be better or worse rewards for premaid quers and solo's.

@roberthansson8222

5 жыл бұрын

Why are you playing a MMO to play it solo?

This is Kronos 3 In a nutshell . Horde usually roll premades with all rank 10+ and destroy 9-10 people pugging some wsg

@user-db8co8rs3z

5 жыл бұрын

Kronos 3 is complete trash, i am glad that shitserver is dead

Thank you for making this issue well known.

I made it to rank 11 and was basically a semi-bench player on a premade at the end of vanilla. I didn't know this was actually a thing back then since my premade (which did successfully get HWL for several players while I played with them) would fight whoever was on the other side, although some premades did occasionally dodge us.

Excellent video! Hope it gets more attention.

Keep it up with these vids dude, you're producing fantastic content.

World of Tanks solved that by limiting the number of team members a group that wants to participate in random battles can have. On a 15 v 15, maximum group size is 3. Simple enough, then, people that want to play 7 v 7, 10 v 10 or 15 v 15, they simply select “Team Battles” and NOBODY dodges.

@Devildog8419

5 жыл бұрын

They just all que together on a timer. He literally explained why this does not work in the video.

So the confirmation of cross realm bg's basically made this a non problem now, or am i wrong?

I was on a premade during vanilla, probably the best one. We had more rank 14s than any other premade. We knew about dodging but none of us had a 2nd account to do it, so we were basically forced to face other premades. The funny thing was, they dodged us leaving us a quick win almost every time. And even if they didn't we learned to be better PvPers making us stronger/more efficient against pugs or "pug premades" (people who queued together but didn't play as a team).

I didn't really understand the concept but i'm glad you guys are all so involved in this. PVP is important for me and i'd hate it if it was somehow fucked up

I remember when I got rank 14 in classic, we were happy to get finally premade enemies. All other games were freewins because ransoms started to let us win so that the can quickly get a new bg. So other premade bgs were the only times we really had fun

I am only returning to WoW for classic. How do I make my opinion on dodging known to Blizzard?

@Jarlaxl.Baenre

5 жыл бұрын

make a blizz account and write on the wow forums

Absolutely agree, I think this is the most important issue concerning Vanilla Wow, Just listened to your interview on count down for classic, and the issues you presented are very real. The honor system and pre-made dodging have vast rippling effects for every player on server. The system absolutely encourages people to dodge thus making casual pvp scene an unfair and discouraging. Combined with honor per hour you can get from camping flightpaths/choke points and killing lower level players, it has a created a player experience that simply punishes every one who isn't a level 60 premade dodger. I've experienced this on every private server and there is no reason to expect that people wont play this way come classic. In the spirit of vanilla experience we must find a way to combat this type of play style and preserve a healthy pvp atmosphere. As is, the current system will most likely cause the player base to slowly erode as average players stop pvping, and casual players stop leveling from the attrition of flight path camping. Even if you believe in "nochanges" we must take a critical look at how people play the game now, in 2019 based on how easily exploitable these base systems are. We must preserve an enjoyable player experience for vanilla. What is the point of farming honor from an empty battleground? What will be the point of having Rank 14 gear if there is no one battle against? What is the point running away from an opponent that presents an equal challenge? With small adjustments I believe we could encourage more people to participate in pug PVP, and make premade vs premade more viable, and make the experience feel more like 2006.

Great video. I'm glad i learned about this. I agree that they should implement a deserter debuff and perhaps spend additional time monitoring high ranking teams so that they can ban scumbags for exploiting. Keeping an MMO happy is done through maintenance and not necessarily all about the algorithms in place.

Very good point. What about just filling up the BG "outside" and then porting in all 20/30 players at once?

Can anyone explain what dodging is and the mechanics behind it?

@zeratulrus142

5 жыл бұрын

Didn't he do that in the video? First time I heard about it, seems pretty clear.

What's your opinion of the lacking class-balance in pvp where warrior is the only class that needs a trinket to even have a chance ?. Also the fact that a healer could do more damage and soak more dmg than a warrior in pvp (shadowpriests).

+Ohhgee Haptix Gaming what server is this?

Looking forward to watching more of your videos once classic is live

How would this affect premades intentionally trying to queue into each other, including at twink brackets were guild v guild play is super core to the experience? I intend to play 60 pvp to premade wsg against other teams... hoping there are wargames

i hope anyone make a forum post about this

What if give additional honor for win in Battlegrounds if enemy team average rank is 11+ ?

@Prebz100

5 жыл бұрын

That system is somewhat already in classic, you do get more honor for killing high ranked players, but they decide to put it on a deminishing returns. So if you kill the same guys like 5x times in a day, you stop getting honor from them (or you get only 1 honor, I dont remember). You could remove the daily cap on the kills, but then people would end up GY farming for more honor, so it would prolly not be a good fix.

In vanilla, there were no premade's for queuing. you had to queue at the same time as your friend and hopefully get in the same AV/AB/WSG

I think this was a very good video highlighting a important problem in PVP, it felt insightful and structured, I don't pvp much but I totally see the problem and agree with you, I hope you get heard, Blizzard seem to be caring less and less about the players, not sure if it has anything to do with Activision or just how the gaming world is changing into a cynical moneygrabbing carefully calculated algorythmic seemingly random system with money milking milestones to keep up the interest.

Good pvpers dodged looking for the enemy premades, often dodging was the only way to link up scrims vs another premade so id like to see something put in place to let teams play. Also i recall in early WoW they got rid of queue checking and made premades more likely to meet other premades, this was how this issue was originally addressed to the lament of teams who used it to play scheduled matches, did they undo those changes in retail or for classic?

I remember when you couldn’t have a horde and alliance character in the same server. If you wanted alliance for example you had to create one on another server

Cross-Server BGs will solve this issue thankfully.

@Youre-absolutely-right

4 жыл бұрын

Can you explain how Cross-server BGs will solve this? I haven't played on pservers and just watched this video, I don't get how cross-server queues change the problem. Maybe I'm having a duh-moment, so I'd appreciate the response. Won't premades who dodge still be able to gain the most honor per hour, compared to non-dodgers?

@Catchdown

4 жыл бұрын

@@Youre-absolutely-right You won't be able to know who you're matched up with, so dodging becomes irrelevant. The reason dodging works is because you can scout the other faction and drop the queue if a strong premade has queued into your gang. With cross-realm BGs scouting the enemy faction becomes much more problematic, since there's more servers and more players to play against. You'd have to scout out with multiple accounts on multiple servers, and by that point it becomes confusing, unreliable - practically impossible.

@Youre-absolutely-right

4 жыл бұрын

@@Catchdown I'm actually not so sure about that - yeah maybe the first week you won't be able to tell a premade, but I'm assuming a few weeks in, you'll know the big ones (I'm sure some guilds out there will share knowledge about premades via discords), so in the end, the problem persists, no? Just have some knowledgable guy join the BG and have him communicate if it's a known premade or not. We'll see I guess, but I think blizzard should add the deserter-fix that Haptix proposed.

@YourIQDoesntMeanShitToMe

4 жыл бұрын

@@Youre-absolutely-right I actually think that might largely depend on how many other BGs there are in contrast to premade ones. Maybe there are many more random BGs in it than you'd think. I don't know myself, but if that is the case then that is what would solve the problem.

I remember ranking in vanilla, 100% of our AB matches were vs premade, but it was only 15 minute queue, unlike WSG which was closer to 45 minutes...

Thank you so much. I haven't found a better video to illustrate how to effectively dodge.

@Jarlaxl.Baenre

5 жыл бұрын

lmfao.. everyone knows how to dodge

"I hate Dodgers" Yeah, me too man, always been more of a Giants fan when it comes to California baseball. Also a big supporter of the Angels since Ohtani hit the scene. But it's hard to keep up with American baseball since I've moved to another country. Oh well, can't wait for this riveting video full of baseball analy- nevermind

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

5 жыл бұрын

Go Sox

@7thdayfallout

5 жыл бұрын

Oof. Unsubbed. Real talk though, I love this channel so darn much. Ridiculously good content. Here's hoping this vid blows up and that knucklehead Ion gets a hold of it. I'd love nothing more than to get involved in organized premade PvP myself, but, living in Japan and doing research around the clock just makes it an impossibility for me.

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

5 жыл бұрын

7thdayfallout thanks man glad you’re enjoying the stuff

@desmondmiles5042

5 жыл бұрын

@@OhhgeeHaptixGaming red sox ftw

I remember this being a problem back in Vanilla too. My premade used to win-trade with the Horde side premade because it was the only competition, we would fight but we would leave flags unprotected when we were meant to lose. Deserter on leaving an unpoped queue would be an issue though since some times someone needs to leave or you have a crash on an important player. Which might result in a missed queue or dequeuing for safety reasons. Far better to have those problems than the issue of queue dodging being the way to earn honor though. Giving a bonus for defeating a group with a win streak might be an incentive though, however that comes with its own problems. It being Classic and all it is hard to come up with fixes since the whole point is that it should be classic wow and not an unwanted deformed stepson.

I really hope blizz sees these exploits and will "fix" it. Thank you for the video, i never knew this existed, but this explains some BG encounters i had when i was playing classic. At some point my friends just gave up, after seeing a premade 5th time in a row, because it wasn't worth our time

here's one good aspect of what you mentioned about people having a spy on another account on the opposite faction adding people doing /who is that private servers dont cost anyone money to create multiple accounts. Compared to Blizzards wow that you have to pay 15 bucks a month and also by the game for 40 bucks not many people are going to buy a $40 separate account pay 15 bucks a month just for a spy. Also in vanilla on PVP servers you can only create one faction per server, so if you have a 60 horde character you're not going to be able to create a level 1 gnome to stalk the alliance. But one way to find out like you said is to invite someone who is not in the pre-made regularly and have them check if it's a premade or not.

@TheTaXoro

5 жыл бұрын

A lot of people don't mind spending a bit of money to get this huge advantage, and you only have to do it if you are playing on a PVP server. There's lots of rankers on pve too

great vid

Just an FYI, Blizzard does cross faction BG's so this will never be an issue. On private servers it is. But that's because they can only que against their server.

@sugarspice7746

4 жыл бұрын

This was an issue in vanilla so if blizz has no changes = same problem

@Youre-absolutely-right

4 жыл бұрын

Can you explain how Cross-server BGs will solve this? I haven't played on pservers and just watched this video, I don't get how cross-server queues change the problem. Maybe I'm having a duh-moment, so I'd appreciate the response. Won't premades who dodge still be able to gain the most honor per hour, compared to non-dodgers?

@mistwha

4 жыл бұрын

@@Youre-absolutely-right no because the que pool is larger on cross servers. It's almost impossible to dodge because your going against people on other servers. Meaning, your rank isn't tied to theirs, only your server. So you will never know which que is going to be a pre-made unless you know all the pre-mades on every server. And sitting there trying to dodge them will take forever.

Great video about a very important subject. And I'm a #nochanges crusader, but you are right, this is a real issue and the solution you propouse is quite simple.

Ranking in Vanilla(rank 9, 11) and ranking on private servers(solo rank 10), I can tell you right now that nothing has changed. The only thing worth noting is the evolution of the honor farm from AV, while groups constantly ran passed each other in a race late in vanilla, on AV weekends, the science of honor farm is much more profitable now

Get that Deserter debuff going and I think it'll be all good. I remember these things even happening in retail Vanilla which made me unable to reach R11 on my Shaman eventhough I played 12 hours a day back then.

wont be an issue at all, cause when classic goes live it will be crossrealm BG´s. like back in the day when 1.12 hitted. Downside is losing some of the server community aspect, kickin the other factions ass and knowing each other was fantastic. It's this get some, lose some situation. Queue dodging is out, but i dont see any alliance player from my server in a random BG. I dont mind it tbh

You can't dodge if there is a battlegroup of multiple servers... not sure if blizz has already confirmed whether this will be the case though

what does dodging mean ?

5:05 doesn't the whole not being able to make a toon on the other faction as soon as you make horde or ally toon on the server.

I remember this. I use to grind ranks as Alliance on a horde dominated server, so often, we would face premades when queuing solo, it came down to "lose fast so we can get out of here", it wasn't worth it to fight them. I got rank 11 after months and months of grinding. I did join what we then called "a marshal team", for horde it was called "warlord team" I guess and we grinded it out, week after week in between our raids. we would raid and the rest of the time, grind out PvP. the only thing I wanted was the Commander's Black saber mount. little did I know that in the burning crusade pre-pact, all I had to do was get 10 marks from each BG and it would be mine, but hey, at least I have the title, But blizzard had to ruin that too, the titles aren't even unique anymore as they got reintoduced later on I think through some silly system. I just clearly remember seeing a Goblin with a Bloodguard title or something like that and I thought.. "hey, that's not right". maybe they race changed the character, but I'm sure they added it back in later right?

you are bringing out a good point here. This was the reason i stop playing BG's

You are going to be a very important person when classic launches. Someone who is articulate, knows his stuff, and has a reputation is a great candidate of being the voice of the community. All you need now is wider recognition and preferably a bigger sub count.

LOL. Your AV turtling is my preferred method of play in there on my druid. Stealth and ninja back the flag while standing in a bush and while the gormless Alliance isn't paying attention.

Share this video to spread awareness about the bullshit of queue dodging!

I think in Classic , IF I do any pvp , I'll spend most battlegrounds I do in Alterac Valley which isn't affected by this because AV was the only bg back then that couldn't be queued as a group . Back in Vanilla , when I wanted to do AV with a guildmate or irl friend , we just queued for AV , waited for what number AV would pop and when the number was the same , we both entered . That's hardly a tact you can use with a full raidgroup . I believe this was changed late TBC or even in Wrath because I remember us standing at the Shattrath battlemaster doing it that way .

I honestly hope this gets some traction because this has been my problem in every game i have ever played. Dodging PvP = The cool thing to do because you still get the rewards. This is making people think they enjoy PvP when they actually enjoy obtaining upgrades.

@Jarlaxl.Baenre

5 жыл бұрын

yep.. them "world of collect-craft" casuals that helped shape retail into the hand-holding garbage it is today!

Seen you around on Kronos 2. Peanutcheese here, maybe the name rings a bell. Great content, keep it up!

It'll be harder on live if it's merged bg's to dodge, and if there's a few servers it won't be very likely that you can effectively dodge.

I thought in vanilla you couldnt create a different faction toon on the same server? I could be wrong it's been awhile.

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

5 жыл бұрын

You are correct. That won't stop people though - the type of players who are willing to invest 14+ hours/day for months on end will also be willing to invest in a 2nd account if they want to dodge. Sad but true.

Amazing content. You are so right about this and i hope blizzard till do something about it. Me a casual wants to compete with other casuals not just waiting for bg to be over....

@Drazex_0

5 жыл бұрын

we need classic classic, before xtra ques, I remember youwent to the bg portal to que and killed the premaid outside of it and inside

I like the idea of the 15 minute queue lock. If you decline a queue again after that, it increases 15 minutes per decline until you complete at least one battleground.

got to rank 11 solo wanted 14 but it requires 16 hours grinding the same bg 7 days a week for 3months, easier to just buy a rank 14 boost from china i honestly hope they change the honor system

Really great video, well explained logical information.

I truly honestly believe they should not release the rank 14 system for wow classic. It is broken, and actively promotes unhealthy play. People are always going to play in their own way, but I don't believe the game should go out of it's way to encourage the level on madness that rank 14 does.

On my server we had only one premade running on either side so it was no issue, and we happily faced enemy premade for exciting games. Although later the enemy premade started avoiding us because they found it was not worth the effort, giving us an easy win.

If its done using a spy then I don't see any way around it. How could they possibly know who is dodging without physically observing the team, which they will never do.

Never happened to me on medium population PvP server back in the day. Like way back in the day, during the vanilla era. We had a hardcore PvP premade group with a couple ranks 12, couple 13 and majority of the group being 10-11 who played 24x7. R14s had obviously retired by then. We also had a way better PvE geared group from my guild who were a sort of weekend / off-spec warriors, with majority of the group being rank 7-8, some 9-10, and a couple of 11. Never got into severe competition with the hardcore PvP group, had our fair bit of fun, I personally got to rank 11 without much suffering while doing hardcore PvE on resto shaman and going elemental every weekend. Could even go for Rank 12 with that schedule, but that was too much of a hassle, would take me 5-6 weeks more and the gear rewards were pretty worthless, you also wouldn't keep your rank to boast around.

Solo queue players should not be matched against premades.

@markoniksic3630

5 жыл бұрын

That creates a whole new level of problems. See Overwatch.

@pascald67

5 жыл бұрын

Agreed, of course there are side effects as stated in the video but they should balance around that rather than making solo queues a gamble whether you get f´ed or not

@basillah7650

5 жыл бұрын

Being matched against a premade is a good thing a fast lose is better than a slow win.

@pascald67

5 жыл бұрын

unless you just want to have fun? this isnt oldschool runescape, its not all about efficiency @@basillah7650

@TheBlorgish

5 жыл бұрын

ba sillah this is true. I feel like forcing premades to play each other only would cause premades to queue solo at the same time to try and cheat the system by queuing at the same time.

You could also just add a 2-5 min delay in showing what zone someone is in. This way it will last long enough for the queue to auto decline. Edit: This way the person that goes afk and miss their queue doesn't have to wait 15 mins to requeue. End result of that could be possibly be them quitting the game or pvp.

@akhsdenlew1861

5 жыл бұрын

Most of the time, both horde and alliance premades want to avoid each other.... no matter who wins in a fight, it's a bad fight for both of them in terms of farming. So they will just communicate in a discord servers to dodge each others... without cross realm bgs, its super easy. And trust me both sides will be willing to do it if they are HARDCORE rankers. It's just the system man.. it's badly desgined, and it requires lame stuff like this unfurtnatly. There's a reason why tbc brought SOOOOOO many pvp changes to the table.

I miss solo Twink 19s where I could smash. even premades with other twink I was usually able to get 30-40 kills, 100 kills in a BG was common. There were BGs when I had more kills and damage than all other players combined.

Excellent video, bro

when is Classic coming out?

I remember playing on emerald dream before nost where the BGs popped for only a few hours a day. Many people were camping flight paths in EPL and blackrock mountain to get ahead.

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

5 жыл бұрын

White Lion yeah, whichever side has the longer queue times will usually camp a hotspot for extra Honor between games

@kingjamesbibleforever

5 жыл бұрын

@@OhhgeeHaptixGaming the rank 14s were camping wetlands FP was pretty badass actually

with crossrealm bgs the chance of going against a known premade is smaller too.

Blizzard is in my opinion likely to use the cross-realm BG system. Does this affect the possibility of win trading / queue dodging? The amount of possible battlegrounds in a cross-realm setting should be too big to track, even with industrial strategies. Opinions? I like your deserter idea and multi-queueing is bad design as well. Cross-realm is stupid in the open world, but I think that it is good enough to use in Battlegrounds. Far things suck as much as having to fight the same premade from your server constantly as a solo player.

@LemoneTheGreat

5 жыл бұрын

Finlandiav0dka whilst it takes away the immersion of competing again solely your realm, I hope they implement cross realm BGs anyways just to prevent problems like this from happening.

Is this a private server?

Actually a very good point this video makes

Fully agree. However... will Blizzard actually care or understand? With all the negative press about Activision I'm a bit concerned. Is this video also posted in the Blizz Forums and pushed/discussed accordingly?

Im very glad you made this video! I personally have already planned on doing scummy premade tactics when classic hits just because i have read you have to to get rank 12+ and I want my pvp gear asap for tanking as a druid since a lot of it is BiS for a quite a while. I hope blizzard takes care of this because i love pvp and would love to grind my honor by playing fun skillful matches vs other premades when they pop up instead of the scummy terrible stomache feeling of stomping randoms who just want to have fun. PvP is no fun when there is no challenge. To be perfectly honest in an ideal world I would love to pure world pvp for my rank 13/14 grind.

@foxmulder8955

5 жыл бұрын

Looks like you never played vanilla and expect it to be something it isn't. Pvp ranks are pure grind and you won't get things "asap" in this game, it just doesn't work this way. No way in hell you get R13 in open world pvp. Open world pvp is the less efficient thing to do in this game. There's no matchmaking or leader board and "competition" is just about optimizing honor gains. However you can have fun as a roamer with a good 1v1 class and rank up decently (slower than premade but still getting to r13 in a reasonable amount of time) if your server has a medium/low population. Don't expect to "rush" r14 before doing raids tho it won't work at all unless you play 24/7. You kinda have to chose between r14 and raids.

@undertalebob3207

5 жыл бұрын

@@foxmulder8955 I understand how it works. Its going to take the fast levelers a week to hit 60, some time to gear up, and realistically probably a month in before people start raiding. Rank 10 to get all blue pvp gear is about a 6 week grind which is the half way point. Considering the lack of 40 man gear for tanking feral druids till AQ the 11 to 12 week (3 month) grind to rank 13 the gear will still be BiS since Molten Core and Onyxia isnt going to give any real upgrades. Ive done my homework boy ;D

@foxmulder8955

5 жыл бұрын

​@@undertalebob3207 rank 10 is the beginning of the grind. 10 to 14 is a bunch of times the duration required for r10 and depending on the population and premade situation on your server R14 might not even be realistic unless you have some arrangement with the current R14 players. Lvl 60 in a week as a solo player with no financial help is a lot more hardcore than you think. Involves extreme sleep deprivation. For certain classes it's not even doable.

@foxmulder8955

5 жыл бұрын

Also I'm no PvE expert by any means but aren't druids considered trash tier for tanking in vanilla ?

@undertalebob3207

5 жыл бұрын

@@foxmulder8955 I was actually part of a Fenris during vanilla WoW playing as a druid. On my server the first 60 poped up on the 5th day. I remember being lvl 42 at the time in the Swamp of Sorrows. in the next 24 hours after him several others hit 60. The stigma that druids are bad at tanking in vanilla was only because finding tank gear for druids was hard and not intuitive, so most tank druids didnt have tanking gear. This stigma was even being abolished at the end of vanilla as people were starting to figure out the class better and all the great tank gear that dropped from AQ 40 for them. Hell even now people are finding out druids were even good at dps in raids do to discoveries since then on private servers. I loved my druid in vanilla and dominated in pvp. I think people are going to get side swiped by how good the class is now with the knowledge we have. Also Skarm (known as one of the best tanks on private vanilla servers) mains warrior and feral druid for tanking all content in vanilla (even Nax). Druids may not be as good of tanks as warriors overall but they are still damn good tanks. I plan on main tanking raids come classic release.

Do you forsee this as being an issue on PvP servers in Classic WoW, seeing as how someone on your team would have to have 2 accounts or a friend who could spy for you?

as always great video

I cant agree more with you m8 . I myshelf lost like 2 months of my life to get r12 and mostly playing with pugs . Its a really cancer thing having to face those ppl which in the end of the day is one of the worst ways to be toxic in vanilla without saying a single word. I hope they do something about that . Thumbs up for your video

Subbed. Good video

I thought there was a deserter debuff.... but apparently that was introduced in a later expansion?

@Ruttho

5 жыл бұрын

I believe he is talking about not accepting the battleground queue pop in the first place, not post-entering and typing /afk to leave. That will give you the deserter debuff.

I love the multiple BG queue dodge. It is a very nice way to have a chance to get out of a BG you do not want to do. I can imagine dodging is annoying and perhaps blocking this way of dodging for full groups is an option. But I remember a sharp decline in pvp pleasure when I was not able to queue multiple bgs.

Great video bro.

I would think the best way is that once you Q you are force into the match once the Q comes up , if you decline your suspended for 20mins thus meaning even if it takes team A 20 mins to beat the match they would be above team B who wouldn’t be able to dodge anymore since it would waste too much time to be suspended each time. And mark the whole team.

@akhsdenlew1861

5 жыл бұрын

"no changes" remember? Cus if u want a change like that then i want my transmogs and my lfg system. ^_^

i did the oppsite back in the day if there was a pre made i would bail on the bg and wait the 15.premades should have a longs que.

My experience from original vanilla in ‘05/06 was that the Warlord group on horde side would AFK out if they saw our steamrolling alliance premade. They would dodge us and we’d get free wins.