I always think of shame as the inverse of pride. For me, shame hits me most when a quality of my identity is threatened, because I don’t feel like I’m acceptable without that quality. When I was little, this happened with math. I’d always prided myself at being clever and good at math, but when my teacher gave me a more advanced text book and I couldn’t figure it out by myself, I felt so ashamed. What I’ve found most helpful in dealing with shame is learning to let go of that pride, and focus outward instead of inward. It’s definitely a work in progress, though.

@ranc1977

6 ай бұрын

Malignant, toxic shame is not so easy to tackle. Mostly - because it is camouflaged emotion and belief - as it was said in video - it is really necessary to devote our time and focus to identify it. It is similar as to identify small and smaller parts of atoms with super expensive equipment which requires huge amounts of money and time to build the super detection system in the first place. It is like Russian Babushka doll that has smaller parts inside it once you open it. Another problem is external ambient, toxic people - who are camouflaged themselves - they wear social mask, some of them are psychopaths and have hidden agenda to use against others (like in movie Saltburn or Talented Mr Ripley). So it is hard to uncover toxic people around us who are brainwashing us into feeling malignant shame.

I know EXACTLY what you guys are talking about. From the coworker to story to the “sick” feeling. All of it. So helpful

@user-no2mz9hl4f

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, that sick feeling is very relatable.

What an excellent conversation on shame! Xannie, I love your point that getting kicked out of a group for a behavior doesn’t inherently mean the behavior is wrong, just that a particular group won’t be okay with it. A group robbing a bank is such a clear example!’

What a great channel this is to find. A big part of healing from BPD challenges is identifying and changing these automatic thought patterns, shame is a huge trigger for them.

I just got officially diagnosed recently after suspecting it for a few years, and I'm so glad to have this place to turn to, but now with the knowledge that I really do relate and it wasn't all in my head 😢 Keep up the wonderful work you all do 💜✨

@ranc1977

6 ай бұрын

" I'm so glad to have this place to turn to" That is exactly the problem. Borderline means being codependent due to self hatred - and we never turn to ourselves since we reject ourselves as learned in ACoA and ACE. We refuse to turn to ourselves - and keep on seeking approval and acceptance from others- and this will attract toxic people - only to keep our wounds cut open all the time.

Toxic shame and criticism talked about at 10:47 is called Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria. It has official description, created by Dr Dodson and it is partly connected to ADHD whom he studies and hence it discovered this condition - which is not recognized by DSM for now. 13:00 "For the longest time I did not know what the sick feeling was that preceded being furiously angry with people." Yes. Some of us who suppress furious anger - is called Quiet BPD. We have the same trigger for criticism reactions - however anger is turned inward and in form of shyness, social anxiety, inferiority complex and being quiet - like people in North Korea or Russia being thrown into prison when they express anger against the suppressive authority. This happens inside Quiet BPD mindset - any revolution or rebellion is squashed inside. And other people never realize that we are being wounded and hurt by them - so abusers keep on abusing and Quiet BPD end up with plethora of coping mechanisms which are not healthy nor functional. Anger would give signal to non-psychopathic people to back off. So Impulsive Borderliners at least clean up abusive people who are not aware that they are abusive. Clueless abusive people will mostly shut up when someone screams at them when they are behaving abusive to us. Quiet BPD folks stay stuck with both open abusers, covert abusers and unconscious abusers - because we never express our anger towards them when they cross boundaries of common curtesy. "But essentially someone says something that's criticism " That is RSD. It is not all criticism. We do not react to all criticism. When we are doing certain task - it is great that someone notices our mistakes - so that we do not harm someone in the process or create huge financial damage with our mistakes. So feedback is welcomed to anyone reasonable and who listens to psychology and is open to change and learning and discovery and curiosity and learning from mistakes. HOWEVER our criticism rejection sensitivity dysphoria issue - is connected to malignant criticism - when someone is abusive and when someone is nitpicking our small mistakes which are non important and which we done super human trials not to make that mistakes - so mot is unjust and unfair criticism that harms us - especially coming from people who are not interesting into growth but in control and manipulation and putting other people down because they are psychopaths. "I would say something to flip it back and make it the other person's problem because I did not know how to sit with that uncomfortable feeling." Yeah - this is interesting. Quiet BPD seems to sit with that feeling - but nope. There are inner coping mechanisms which prevent experiencing it - and it happens inside so it is not visible. Just being quiet does not mean sitting with that feeling. There is denial, dissociation, suppression that happens inside someone who is quiet and who appears as sitting with that uncomfortable feeling - but actually there is no such connection and learning from what is happening and experiencing the pain at all.

@ranc1977

4 ай бұрын

Warren replied but his comment got deleted. He started to talk about anger - what happens when we swallow it. This is not about swallowing anger. Anger when it is covered up and denied is caged anger. This is not healthy. Anger needs to be processed - transmuted. Well - in most cases we will experience injustice that will cause our anger. To transmute it is: 1) to express our side of story 2) to warn alarm alert intrusive person of consequences 3) to cut contact if it is repeated 4) to plan long term escape if we are unable to cut contact immediately 5) to see anger as reaction to harm and hurt - and not as grudge and hatred towards the perpatrator Because if we hold the grudge - we will internalize the harm and damage ourselves from inside like auto-immune disease.

Not knowing when I was experiencing shame was a major insight during therapy recently. Thanks Xannie for sharing your explanation of how shame can be layered under other emotions. It’s there, is just such a painful emotion to experience, anger etc. is easier since it’s outward directed.

In my experience, my shame and guilt have often been self-inflicted rather than a reaction to an external stimulus like comments from other people. My therapist and I are working together to try and discover why I self-sabotage, and individual and group DBT therapies are helping me develop coping skills for when I feel the symptoms of shame and guilt. Because there is often no external stimulus, these difficult emotions feel like they “come out of nowhere.”

I actually feel like I’ve been fed! ALL my life I’ve felt this way and it’s been challenging to deal with this. Even when it comes to reacting at different thoughts that are and aren’t mine. No one has been able to really read me in depth similar to this. This was more helpful than therapy smh…but I’m grateful to have found this! I wish I had this years ago but I’m grateful for it now! Thank you so much for shedding light on this. ❤❤❤

Your channel has come into my life at such an perfect time. I am so grateful and thankful for this channel, you guys put in so much work to make sure these videos are inclusive, informative and genuinely insightful and motivating in the recovery process. Thank you so much x

@thebpdbunch

2 ай бұрын

You’re so welcome!!!

Thank you for sharing. The struggle is real.

With BPD you can sometimes just go ahead and replace the term ‘shame’ with the sudden sensation of eternal damnation… I’m not entirely sure it’s natural lol.

14:34 ...that never even existed...

16:00 "You have that judgment and you feel that shame and then you need to defend yourself. That's where anger comes from. Because I feel like this tiny person who is so shameful and just shouldn't be here because I've done something wrong and terrible. And the only way to go from there is either completely in toilet or pick little sword and just try fight back. Anger accompanies shame so much because you feel need to defend yourself" Yes. This 'going down to toilet' option - is Quiet BPD. Quiet borderliners will try not to make scene and never express any conflict emotion. Mostly due to punishments in childhood and toxic ambient in adulthood where talking and speaking the facts and truths was met with hysteria and more anger from perpetrators and unreasonable people around them who are causing drama and conflict in the first place. 20:28 "Shame is helpful - it communicates to you your place in that group. That's why we have to separate purpose of shame versus habitual negative self talk that we have created as result of shame. Those things can become intertwined and become almost automatic - where you feel shame and then your inner voice is: you are f* loser, you need to sit in the corner and just pretend you don't exist because you should be sorry for your existance." Yeah - I would be curious where we learned this self image talk. And would be curious about what is this community. Things get complicated when we live in Shame Culture country. World can be divided in Guilt and Shame Culture. Shame Culture is found in poor and corrupt countries like Asia, Africa. Whereas Guilt Culture is mostly found in prosperous democracies like Western Europe and North America and Australia. In Europe - it is only the Balkans that belong to Shame culture countries. And inside each country - those areas that are rural and poor have shame counties. Like Southern Italy - where mafia rules and Texas and racists states in the South are Shame based culture countries. This is huge problem - because in order to be healthy and sane - we actually need to relocate from the complete state and move to normal country- and that is not easy task - if we do not have money, visa and no third parties left to care like elderly or children or property or contracts that bind us to stay in toxic ambient. It is not like I can choose not to be part of group - when all people have personality disorder and are mentally ill around you - because they don't care about their malignant shame and how their anti-social behavior is affecting others around them. I believe that toxic malignant shame did not come on its own - we did not invent this self talk. This is the result of operant conditioning: AcoA and ACE ambient while we were growing up - most commonly abuse by omission where people around us never actually took time to mirror us, to provide us with love and safety - and instead we were always criticized and we were nuisance to them and this was clearly shown to us through their behavior and words. 22:05 "I probably shouldn't be with these people" Shame can also come up outside of meaningless surface level connections with people - and this is why toxic shame is connected to mental imbalance and dysregulation: - having toxic job where we cannot quit it due to lack of money - so we are forced to be disciplined and corrected by people who are not intelligent enough but they present themselves as superior and they punish us for unrelated mistakes and present them as hysteria and most commonly shift blame and their own mistakes onto us - being in toxic family where we cannot run away due to being under-age or lack of money or living in shame culture country - where any new ambient would be exactly the same as toxic family - being in narcissistic abuse contact where there is third party involved or contracts of property which we simply cannot leave and abandon away - depending on daily and urgent resources on toxic people like supply store or healthy industry - the best example is Russian Simpsons into animation - where we see Russian version of Marge going to store and clerk is screaming and yelling at her each day just for clerk being lazy and doesn't want to work - and there is no other store to go to except that one with abuse. So there are real life situations where people are STUCK in toxic malignant shame ambient. For example, here is quote from young American woman who came to Croatia to live with her boyfriend - but after 2 years she discovered that people in Croatia are abusive, and she went back to USA. In her own words: Young American explained why she left Croatia: "In Croatia people constantly express intrusive opinion about matters which are none of their business. The most irritating things were rude people." (poslovni hr Seek article and translate with google translator: "Amerikanka napušta Hrvatsku: ‘Neučinkovitost i birokracija te ljudi koji nemaju motiva za napredovanjem u poslu’" October 12 2019) That is why I think that core values are not the only element. External toxic ambient plays the crucial role in malignant shame development. And you said that in this very video at 22:38 "Many of use have this internal voice “I'm the problem”. But sometimes it's the culture that needs to change. Maybe it's the group that is doing something wrong and you're feeling shame because you're trying to fit into a group that is maybe doing the wrong things." Yes! This is something that I profess and talk about social anxiety - and nobody gets it. What you said here - when I explain it - I get that deer in headlight stare from other, people look at me as if I am talking some conspiracy theories - and then people do not understand this - that herd mentality and group thinking can be so much damaging when it is toxic. If anybody comments this, I get dismissed and mostly ignored - most people do not understand it - how toxic group can be the problem that is causing mental health issues in scapegoats and whistleblowers. 23:23 "Activators for criticism" I think that romantic related criticism - that comes from partner - is more reactive one and we know that we can trust our partners. It is different when the criticism is related to people who are professional nitpickers and manipulators and conflict prone people - who thrive in blaming other people since this way they hide their own faults and imperfections or predators who have hidden agenda - so they blame others in order to eliminate others through dehumanization bullying attacks. I believe with RSD we were exposed to the unfair criticism while growing up - and our activators for full blown toxic shame will be criticism related to our mistakes and faults which are totally outside of our control and where we tried our all best to avoid mistakes - and then someone patronizing us from aside and safety distance - that is activator for our trauma and toxic shame. The best example is in toxic ambient when we are doing some task for the first time in our lives and that critic aside will nitpick and mock and create hysteria out of any wrong step that we make - that we do not know due to doing this task for the first time. And critic presenting our mistake as deliberate choice as if we are lazy or we have low standards and that our core character is abnormal for making mistakes for the first time and where realistically speaking mistakes are normal and part of growing and learning. This is common in shame culture countries - where anti-social predators enjoy and wait for such moments where they can abuse someone weak and who is newbie. In Russia - in obligatory military service there is hazing where new soldiers are targeted and abused. I believe our issue with criticism is related to predators and narcissistic abuse - which is hidden and socially accepted and rationalized and normalized and intellectualized by toxic society - where we are at the receiving end of abuse. Predators and narcissists - they feel good when they put other people down - this is their source of happiness - and nobody is getting them to therapy - we end up being labeled and stigmatized and symptomized - where true abusers walks away free with their coercive control that nobody else sees. I believe in 90% of cases BPD is actually Complex Trauma. While other 10 % are delusional types that belong to narcissism. The same applies to Social anxiety. CBT and diagnosis are doing so much psychological damage to traumatized and abused people and add more malignant shame on top of the existing one. I would agree with message in the video - not to stigmatize our symptoms and not to weaponize psychology against ourselves as CBT is instructing us to force us to hide our symptoms so that we are not burden to society with our trauma wounds. Great video ! thanks! subscribed! - Narcissist Personality Disorder One of the few conditions where the patient is left alone and everyone else is treated. (PierceTheDarkness) If we could somehow end child abuse and neglect, the eight hundred pages of DSM (and the need for the easier explanations such as DSM-IV Made Easy: The Clinician's Guide to Diagnosis) would be shrunk to a pamphlet in two generations. 🟦 John Briere

Would a borderline project shame on their FP during devaluation or is this something else

@samprobert6416

4 ай бұрын

Interesting question!

@user-dn8hd6xn1e

28 күн бұрын

Yes.

❤

The problem with my BPD woman is that I don't think she can sit and reflect over herself like this panel. She seems fixed at 2-6yo emotionally, but logically and else she got very high IQ, I also doubt she will admit she got a disorder or understand the impact she inflict on others