"Violated the spirit of the rules". In other words, it wasn't technically breaking any rules, but Ferrari didn't like it.

@FrontSideBus

4 жыл бұрын

leopold Quite standard for Ferrari that... if they can’t make it work themselves, they get it banned.

@kosice1234

4 жыл бұрын

At that time particularly it would be Renault, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari.

@gufo_tave

4 жыл бұрын

Ferrari? If i remember well, the one who pushed for banning this car was Brabham, as a revenge for their Bt 46B (the "fan car"). And remember that at early 80s, Brabham was a top team.

@carlosandleon

4 жыл бұрын

well if you think about it, it makes sense. the main reason about the rules was to ban ground effect and though not specifically stated, it did break the meat and the reason and the spirit of the rules itself

@Hebdomad7

4 жыл бұрын

If Ferrari do it, it's innovation. Anyone else it's cheating.

Team: *creates an innovation* Other teams: *Cant be bothered making one so complain to the FIA to have it banned*

@evbunke2

4 жыл бұрын

Seriously the more I learn about F1, the more it seems like the teams and the regulators are a bunch of crybabies. What's the point of all that incredible engineering if they just constantly ban innovations?

@kieranjones5021

4 жыл бұрын

@@evbunke2 ikr its fucking boring and makes so that back marker teams can't really climb the order

@T0BBi94

4 жыл бұрын

@@kieranjones5021 Actually today it is the opposite for back markers. The teams with more budget can and will exploit the rules and regulations much harder and better than smaller teams. This is one of the consequences with the 2021 change. It will take time before the smaller teams catch up again because the larger teams will be able to exploit the rules better with the new cars.

@kieranjones5021

4 жыл бұрын

@@T0BBi94 True

@Appletank8

4 жыл бұрын

When perfecting and testing a new technology costs a few millions over your budget, but the other team doesn't have that problem, are you really surprised people don't want to be the guy stuck with a Corolla while there's a guy constantly winning the race with a McLaren?

From the heady days when the drivers legs were part of the crash structure.

@mattyg267

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly my thought... it's scary how little 'car' is between the driver and the nose. Drivers legs where way in front of the front axle too... the Ricardo paletti crash in '82 always makes me shiver, how much the front crumpled.

@hazy33

4 жыл бұрын

@@mattyg267 I deliberately never saw that crash in detail just the tv footage that was looking from the front of the grid. But also Pironi's legs sticking out after his horrendous crash. Those Ferrari's were complete death traps as proved by Villeneuve.

@hazy33

4 жыл бұрын

@Strange Faction what absolute crap. Tell that to the families of Riccardo Paletti, Stefan Belloff and everyone else that died. Think before you post next time. Delete your comment, you're an embarrassment to your own family.

@UnitSe7en

4 жыл бұрын

@@hazy33 The concept is that if you are in danger and know the danger to yourself and others, you do everything you can to avoid it and not hurt those around you. It's a very simple thing to understand. _Strange Faction_ didn't say those designs were a _good_ idea, because, very obviously, when *accidents* happen, people get killed. But the notion of a shared respect is what's lost when you cover everyone doing dangerous things in foam. You should consider yourself as one of the more embarrassing, ignorant and disrespectful people to ever post a YT comment this year. Congratulations.

@anon2036

4 жыл бұрын

@@hazy33 1 iq comment. try harder.

I much prefer these type of videos than the ones where you guys sit down and talk. Please make more videos like this!

@themightydash1714

4 жыл бұрын

yeah, and you dont have to look at the fat bloke, its so distracting.

@Squilliam-Fancyson

4 жыл бұрын

@@themightydash1714 he isnt fat, his bones are heavy!

@georgebridgeman-sutton2858

4 жыл бұрын

@@themightydash1714 What's wrong with looking at a fat bloke?

@Jacob19991864

4 жыл бұрын

@@themightydash1714 I quite like the fat bloke

@georgebridgeman-sutton2858

4 жыл бұрын

@@Jacob19991864 He's a good, knowledgeable guy with excellent speaking skills.

Engineers: FIA: No.

@michelvanbriemen3459

4 жыл бұрын

Engineers on one team: FIA: Fine Renault: No Mercedes: No more engine for you Ferrari: I leave now FIA: NO NO NO NO

@Sungblox

4 жыл бұрын

Michel van Briemen Renault was lotus in the 80’s

@kaydnburns5935

4 жыл бұрын

Motor sports are pretty much all garbage now. Racing used to be about getting an edge, by innovation and discovering new techniques. When you at the level god tier drivers, if given identical cars the only reason you win is because of luck. A car breaks down, they hit a part of the track that had more rubber than you etc. it’s all luck.

@richardhobbs7360

4 жыл бұрын

Kaydn Burns you sir have never watched F1 If it wasn’t about innovation and design then why is there a huge gap between say merc and Williams or the top 3 and the rest of them

@KokoroKatsura

4 жыл бұрын

a n i m e n i m e

F1 and NASCAR: if you cannot outrun them, outlaw them.

@RedAssassin274

4 жыл бұрын

Rip Dodge Charger Daytona, too much for Ford and Chevy 😔

@RedAssassin274

3 жыл бұрын

@Bailey Finley I don't think the 426 ever raced the Ford 427 in Nascar, 427 came after I beliebe

@russotusso1695

3 жыл бұрын

Every Motorsport is like that

@thethirdman225

3 жыл бұрын

It was illegal from the start and Chapman knew it.

@cbj4sc1

Жыл бұрын

Yeah racing where one guy kinda fucks off because their team found some invention is very entertaining. Imagine if every season of every motorsport was 2014-2016 Mercades domination

I remember 1981 well. The twin-chassis Lotus 88 violated the "spirit" of the rules but Gordon Murray's hydropneumatic suspension system on the Brabham BT49C didn't? The reason the 88 was banned was because the other teams weren't clever enough to come up with Chapman's idea. And, yes, the other teams feared what this car was capable of. It's kind of harsh to say the 88 wasn't any good. I believe the original iteration of the car, which first ran at Long Beach, had great potential. However, the car was banned before it could really be properly developed. The subsequent iteration of the 88, which appeared at Silverstone that summer, had some modifications made to it and that version, imo, was a bit of a mess. However, the 88 only made two appearances and was never given a chance. Chapman's last innovation's potential went completely unrealized which was a shame.

@rexstetson1717

4 жыл бұрын

Very upsetting this was banned. I cannot think of any other instance in all of sports, where a team, athlete, or piece of equipment was banned or penalized for being against “the spirit of the rule.” That’s the whole point of having rules. Something is either legal or it’s not. If you govern based “the spirit of the rules,” it means you actually have no rules, just a subjective set of nebulous guidelines. Rules on the other hand are objective. Whatever we think of politics in F1 now, in the past they were far worse. Still though, when someone produces a radical new innovation in F1, it’s often the first response of rival teams to run to the courts to get the innovation banned, rather than knuckle down, and try to rise to the challenge. Sad.

@paulo9504

4 жыл бұрын

@@rexstetson1717 To elaborate further on my original post, teams feared the 88 and politicked to get it banned. The reason was simple. Had the 88 been allowed to run, then the other teams would have been forced to abandon their cars and copy the 88 which would have been extremely costly. The Brabham BT49C was a cheater car, make no mistake about that. Its hydropneumatic suspension was not easily mimicked by other teams. However, most teams implemented a hydraulic lowering system controlled by a switch on the dash. That was a simpler and much cheaper way to circumvent the 6 cm ride height rule than Chapman's elaborate Lotus 88. The 6 cm ride height rule could only be enforced while the car was sitting still during scrutineering or during post practice/qualifying/race checks. It couldn't be checked while the cars were on track and at speed. Most people could see the cars were dropping at speed, it was impossible to police. That was the loophole in the rules that was exploited. Car only had to pass checks in the pits.

@TheFastolf

4 жыл бұрын

I was precisely going to point that out. "It wasn't any good"...maybe it wasn't as good because it was barely out of the box when they banned it? Who knows what it could have been if allowed to further develop and even embraced by other teams.

@neutronalchemist3241

4 жыл бұрын

The 88 was a blatant cheat. Rules banned mobile aerodynamic surfaces. Making them bigger and naming them "secondary chassis" didn't make them legal.

@davidcolin6519

4 жыл бұрын

@Ric Boni I remember them all. But none of that has anything to do with the subject at hand, the Lotus 88. The problem was ground effect, not the 88. And to think that ground effect was eliminated is simply BS, the fact that everything from F1 to your godawful Audi S7 has a diffuser demonstrates the truth of that.

Imagine a car like that turning around the Eau Rouge. The car would just take off at the top of the hill.

@davidcolin6519

4 жыл бұрын

This is the problem with never actually having seen it in action. You never know However, how many "Ground Effect" era cars literally took off at Eau Rouge? I THINK that I watched every race of the Ground Effect era, and I can't think of it ever happening. The 88 may (in fact, almost certainly would have) needed development time. But there is no reason to think that it wouldn't have been perfected. So, it would have been way faster than other GE cars because it would have had far MORE GE. So why would it have flown off at Eau Rouge? What don't you understand about GE? that it can be far greater than gravity? (BTW and FYI, GE cars were generating 6 Gs, if that is the case, Eau Rouge would have been no sweat in the 88)

@eddie_23

4 жыл бұрын

That's radion actually

@bobdole5350

4 жыл бұрын

@@davidcolin6519 He said in the video that when the air went between the two chassis, rather than below, it inverted the downforce to lift instead. Could quite easily take off (at the front end) if the conditions happened to be perfect at the time. Still a very minute chance, but in F1 that can mean the difference between success and failure!

@russotusso1695

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidcolin6519 first, GE cars never produced 6Gs, second, did you even watch the video, car littearly could go from maximum downforce to lift, imagine that happening at 250+ KMH there, it's simple to see that car was dangerous in its original form, maybe it could have been solved later down the line but by that time somebody would have been killed.

@zammy7155

3 жыл бұрын

@@eddie_23 *Radillon

Chapman's innovations always seemed to be at their best when there was a bigger risk of death when things went wrong. Judging by what what was said by di Angeles here, this would have been a great car.

@zhuyufan1186

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the older lotus are fast but fragile. At least Sir Jackie Stewart told us that.

@psykkomancz

4 жыл бұрын

As Chapman once said : "Proper race car will break apart just after the finish line."

@mattyg267

4 жыл бұрын

Only have to look at the front end of Ronnie Peterson's lotus 78 after the monza '78 crash to see how fragile and paperthin they actually where

@gufo_tave

4 жыл бұрын

Actually, he said this car was too much unpredictable: when everything was OK you could have lots of downforce, but the minimum anomaly would create even LIFT.

@Appletank8

4 жыл бұрын

70% fast and 30% flying doesn't sound great.

F1 is really made of people who dont give up and go for the win/innovations against all odds. New F1 fan here and loving it.

@F1ll1nTh3Blanks

4 жыл бұрын

Guys like Chapman and Brabham never gave up. The rest of them were just cretins and it seems like they haven't changed much either.

@lightningmcdweeb

4 жыл бұрын

welcome to the brother hood

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks What do you do exactly?

@MatthewLee8383

4 жыл бұрын

Shame there's no major innovation allowed these days though.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

@@MatthewLee8383 Less of it is that there's "less room for innovation", and more is that the low hanging fruit is off the tree. The PPIHC is open to literally anything and what's been mind-blowing there? Nothing, really. The 919 Evo didn't exactly do anything mind-blowing. Road going supercars? Not much there, either.

Beginning of the end of F1 innovation. Now..hardly anything new is allowed. I was a young teenager racing my slot cars back then, and I was always surprised that our little slot cars had many innovations before the real race cars did. For instance, our tires were wider than they were tall, long before the real cars had wide tires. We innovated aero before the real cars did, with sheets of thin Lexan on the sides tunneling air, a massive rear spoiler and a flat front splitter much like Le Mans Prototypes, but at least a couple of decades earlier. Finally we had a split piano wire chassis that allowed the body to move around separately from the chassis. Not exactly like this Lotus 88, but a similar concept. Great stuff at the time. I was at Long Beach, saw the 88 practice but in the end never raced there. What a shame.

@Appletank8

4 жыл бұрын

John G. Hill It’s a difficult balance between allowing for innovation yet stopping one team from dumping a billion dollars into perfecting design. There’s also the problem with modern aero making it nearly impossible for chasing cars to get close, unless you ban any modification that causes bad airflow behind the car.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

The axles on the “banning innovation“ band wagon won’t last much longer.

It was a perfect legend then. Because everything good about is is an absolute myth. A hero you shouldn't meet

@ABaumstumpf

4 жыл бұрын

Well - no. The Engineers of that time as well as the drivers never said anything like he claims in any interview or at other occasions, most of the time expressing regret that it was never allowed to race. And there have been (due to enough fans) many people looking at the design and its effects. Producing lift? utter garbage.

@mrjohnnyk

4 жыл бұрын

@@ABaumstumpf Well unintended lift was actually a common issue with advanced aerodynamics of the 80's and 90's. I mean look at the infamous Mercedes CLK-GTR that had a notorious lift issue that didn't show up until certain situations while racing, which was so bad that it caused the car to go airborne and do a backflip.

@trevordillon1921

4 жыл бұрын

John Klise the Mercedes was a very complex and highly specific scenario relating more to the actual pitch of the car than anything else. The vehicle itself would never produce lift, but the flat underside of the car would catch wind because the car was not angled far enough forward.

@DominikMaslyk

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrjohnnyk That was the Merc CLR.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@ABaumstumpf Did you not watch the video? Did you understand it?

The Lotus 23b was also banned from Le mans in 62. This was due to Jim Clark racing a 23b earlier and getting over a 2 minute lead over ferrari and aston but was forced to retire due to a cracked manifold. When Le mans came along the other teams were worried and everything was done to make sure the car could not race. The scrutineers complained the window was to low, the car was to low and the car had 6 wheel nuts and the rear and 4 at the front which wasn't actually against the rules but they deemed it against the spirit of the race. Lotus flew an engineer back to england over night and worked all through early morning to correct all the changes. The car still failed because now it had 4 studs front and rear and whilst the scrutineers were not engineers they failed it on the basis that the car had 6 studs on the rear and so must have needed 6 and not 4. LColin was furious and went around the pits showing other cars like ferrari who also didnt meet requirements such as being to low, window being to low, no spare tyre etc. Lotus vowed never to race at Le Mans again.

@1183newman

4 жыл бұрын

Later a representative from Le Mans visited Colin and asked him to write down a number that would put things right between lotus and Le Mans. Colin wrote down a number and the man simply said that is way to much and left.

@cbj4sc1

Жыл бұрын

Lotus raced at the 1993, 1997 and 2013 24 hours of Lemans. Some vowe huh?

@1183newman

Жыл бұрын

@@cbj4sc1 long after the founder colin chapmans death. So yes Colin Chapman kept his vow until the day he died.

Mazda: *makes the 787b with the Rotary Engine and win FIA: *_HoLd ThE fUcK uP_*

@succmama1039

4 жыл бұрын

W8 that's illegal

One thing that video didn't mention explicitly enough is the fact that BOTH structures were independently connected/sprung to the wheels of each other, while bodywork including mirros, wings, (paint/sponsors part) was sitting directly on the outer, stiffer chassis - you can see onboards of Lotus 88 where at around 2nd gear the bodywork goes down to omit the 6 cm mandatory ground clearance, so the green chassis(bodywork) here on the video moves along purple actually. That kind of setup can make setting up the car tricky, as stiffness of the ARB/springs as well ride height can make huge difference in overall balance of the car through corners.

The unending creativeness of Chapman would be lost in today’s F1 with it’s overly prescriptive ruleset. A shame as some of his designs were just beautiful!

@ChaitanyaShukla2503

4 жыл бұрын

Creative engineers always shine no matter how restrictive rules are. Chapman even would have some crazy designs in today's rule set.

@TroubledCarOwner

4 жыл бұрын

​@@ChaitanyaShukla2503 ,usually the innovations come from finding 'loopholes' in the rules. The Lotus 88 in the video also utilized a loophole. Now it's almost impossible to find one. We don't see real innovations anymore, because it's almost impossible to make something new. The rule book is so specific and thorough. I'm not surprised if they restrict how much you can angle the end plates of the front wings. The best that the engineers can do is OPTIMISE, and finding the best setup is not innovation.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

Teams still do it. Bawn's double diffuser, the coanda effect, Newey's flexi nose, Renault's mass damper, the F-duct, etc., etc., etc.

@MarcelAltmann

4 жыл бұрын

Alan Bagnall chapmans creativity killed a lot of drivers

@nanderlizernanderlizer684

4 жыл бұрын

Alan Bagnall why do you idiots complain that one team always wins and also complain it is too restrictive. Having more open rules would make the gap between each car expand massively

the more i hear about innovation being squashed in F1 the less i care for it.

@marcuswagner1396

4 жыл бұрын

Theyre basicially redditors

@spawnof200

4 жыл бұрын

@randomguy8196 tbf i werent refering solely to the use of ground effect

@neutronalchemist3241

4 жыл бұрын

@@decimatedbyatrain3339 You know nothing. This car didn't pass a single check of the stewards. It was a blatant cheat (rules banned mobile aerodynamic surfaces. Making them bigger and naming them "secondary chassis" didn't make them legal) and, when it seems there was the possibility that it could be allowed to race (only because Lotus kept on showing it to the tracks) IT HAD BEEN THE OTHER BRITISH TEAMS THAT COMPLAINED.

@decimatedbyatrain3339

4 жыл бұрын

Neutron Alchemist alright jeez calm down, no need to be so confrontational

@UncleKennysPlace

4 жыл бұрын

Yes; they have hybrid powertrains because they are "relevant to today's road cars", yet don't have ABS or stability program.

Every 4 years F1 should strive to deregulate rules. Set important safety guidelines yes, but if you properly rebalance monetary rewards and distribution from success, each team can innovate with research and Development

@jundies171

4 жыл бұрын

Dreamy Mercedes vs ???

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

Pikes Peak exists, bro.

@want2cLOTS

4 жыл бұрын

Spot on 100%. When I started following F1 as a teen in the 70s the great thing about it was not just the racing but that there was always something new around the corner. Not every idea worked, but the point was that they had the freedom to try new concepts. In particular it meant that even a small team might hit the front of the grid if they out-thought the other guys. Mid-mounted engine, V6, V8, Flat8, V10, V12, Flat12, H16 engine configurations, Monocoque chassis, use of engine as a stressed component, the Cosworth DFV as an independent engine available to all, aero wings, 6 wheel chassis, ground effect, the Turbo engine, carbon chassis, carbon brakes, semi-auto gearbox. All came about from efforts of individual teams who moved F1 tech forwards. Now we're supposed to get excited when someone brings out a modified front wing...and it needs an aero expert to explain how it helps clean up the airflow for a 2% gain etc etc.

@Appletank8

4 жыл бұрын

want2cLOTS Sure, but now the amount of resources some teams can afford to throw at their R D means everyone else is left behind.

@LimitPro1

4 жыл бұрын

@@Appletank8 another reason to hate environmentalist

sounds like sour grapes to me. The only problem with the car was air leaks, once they fixed it, it would have been a monster. And every team knew it, that was why it was banned.

Good to see more revealed about the car after so long. Like the Lotus 80, it looked like it would be fantastic and logically appeared to tick all of the right boxes until you throw in the then 'black art' of aerodynamics.

Giorgio maybe the double chassis concept as you said was ahead of its time and would work with the smart digital suspension, later used by Williams and banned. The car was also beautiful. Elio de Angelis was a fabulous driver great to watch images of him.

Kenny Weld adapted the idea to his dirt track car and changed that genre forever.

@vsm1456

4 жыл бұрын

sounds interesting. do you have a link where I could read more about it, or some keywords I could use to find it myself?

I want to see this car make a comeback, at the very least for sim racing.

@ABaumstumpf

4 жыл бұрын

enough fans have studied it - the car simply was great.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@ABaumstumpf That’s because the only people who have “studied it” recently don’t know anything about it. The internet loves a conspiracy theory. That’s why we’re on a path of de-evolution.

Chapman was a genius and he would have made it work. I like how people come out of the wood work to pan Chapman now. He is not alive to defend himself and also it took Ferrari 7 times that was a great feet for a small company.

@russotusso1695

3 жыл бұрын

Guy died like one year later, he wouldn't have time to make it work, and even if he did, by that time somebody would have been killed.

@No.Handle31

3 жыл бұрын

@@russotusso1695 Guy died! You mean Colin Chapman. And I'm sure it would have worked. And if you know anything about F1 of that time all the teams where pushing it. And drivers died they knew the risk!

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@No.Handle31 You’re on your own with that. Didn’t you watch the video? The drivers didn’t like it. It became irrelevant at the end of 1981 because skirts were reintroduced for 1982.

@No.Handle31

2 жыл бұрын

@@thethirdman225 Yeah I watched it. But if given the chance to race could have ironed out the faults. Need to try something before getting it right. That's how F1 has always worked I think you need to know how the sport works. Also if you can't see Chapman was a true genius then you definitely don't know your onions.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@No.Handle31 Well, I reserve the right to march to my own drum beat. And I don't recall saying anything whatsoever about Colin Chapman.

Jake should be in the member of f1 technical director overseeing technical rule change in 2022, this was ahead of its time (2022)

Chapman's ingenuity at its extreme, criminally banned before it got properly tuned... Love that era

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Banned under a rule that Chapman was intimately familiar with. He knew it was illegal. He was playing word games. The ban was totally justified.

Designers and engineers (and, to be fair, most people in F1) are ingenious. Incredible what ideas they come up with.

Just a quick answer to the last comment of TheThirdMan: the "primary chassis" is not attached to the wheel uprights by means of a "linkage", but by means of a ... suspension (coil springs and damper). This is very different from what existed back in 1968, where the aerofoils were directly and rigidly bolted to the uprights. The problem is that the 88 has two suspended parts, each one with its own suspension, and the aerodynamic devices (rear wing and side pods) are attached to the suspended primary chassis, as requested by the rule book. The rule book did not imagine there could be two suspended elements for one single car. That's how the 88 was in agreement with the wording of the rules as they were back in 1981. This is why the Lotus 88 was declared legal by the US court after the Long Beach disqualification. The car was later disqualified in other countries as the FIA supported the idea that the decision from the US court was only valid in the US, not anywhere else in the world. Way after that, the FIA court in Paris decided that the car would be banned forever, but this decision was never clearly explained other that "the car broke the rule".

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, it was different but that didn’t change the fact that once those little springs compressed, the load was directly on the uprights. I have an unbroken series of Grand Prix International mags from the start of 1980 to the end of 1982. The Lotus 88 was discussed in many issues and the reason they protested it was that it was a suspension mounted aerofoil.

0:36 This is very well explained something I've often thought about.

Weird, when I've seen the Lotus 88 driven now, it seems like the outer bodywork is sucking itself to the ground just fine. And I've seen drivers compare the way it drives favorably to a "modern" (pre-hybrid) car.

@chrisbigelow7390

Жыл бұрын

Agree bullshit superficial analysis.Both of them unqualified to make judgements on the overall concept. The deficiency described is easily solved via the rebound settings of the pneumatic cylinders on which the secondary (ground effect) chassis is sat on (the bobbleheads didnt realize that apart from a twin chassis it is also using the BT49 concept of varying the height for legality when measured in the pits). Car has worked fine in several outings since 1981

@russotusso1695

10 ай бұрын

None of the times is it driven to limit and at old 80s bumpy tracks

@russotusso1695

10 ай бұрын

​@@chrisbigelow7390I like you call it superficial analysis, by a man who has been following and illustrating F1 cars since 70s, but then you do actual bs superficial analysis, even tho you probably never even sat in a race car before of any kind.

Interesting confrontation with this myth.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

What was the myth? I just remember it being a clever exploit of scrutineering that rival teams weren't having. No one ever said it was superior on the track.

@PavlosLepaul

4 жыл бұрын

@@DapperHesher Well, for me, as young every time when I read about something banned, I thought about something extremely good. Maybe It's only me, but every time when I hear about banning something, I feel like It was better than conventional projects.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

@@PavlosLepaul Usually it's either not in the "spirit" of the regs (like the Lotus 88), or other teams lobby to get it out through politicking. Other things straight up stick and get adopted by everyone (think high noses, ground effect, F-ducts, S-ducts, capes, FRIC, automated gear change, bell cranks, pneumatic lifters, nikisil liners, swan necks, composite chassis', flexures, third springs, the list goes on-and-on).

@weston9106

4 жыл бұрын

Pavlos Lepaul other teams thought it would be competitive.

@ABaumstumpf

4 жыл бұрын

Well - the thing is - it was not a myth. The car simply was superior. The only "myth" here, or rather outright lie - is the car supposedly creating lift.

To say is wasn't good is a misnomer. It was never developed. It was potentially way too good

@ScottKenny1978

4 жыл бұрын

It was a movable aerodynamic surface. Which have been banned in F1 since the 1960s.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScottKenny1978 It wasn't that section of the rule that was in question. The problem was that it was a suspension-mounted aerofoil.

@ScottKenny1978

2 жыл бұрын

@@thethirdman225 "airfoils must be rigidly mounted to the body of the car" The phrasing bans both movable airfoils and airfoils mounted on some kind of suspension.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScottKenny1978 That's true but the wording of the objection specified suspension-mounted aerofoils. It's part of the same rule.

The one time there was too much hairflow in the '80's

Autosport is been one heckin' goog of a channel this year, congratulations, I really didn't know about this and it was awesome... BTW, you guys have the means to figure this out: What would happen to F1 if ground effect wasn't banned 2 years later? In general, no this car only. What would happen if F1 unbanned ground effects in early 2000s? By then, the sport was so safe, I really don't see why it wasn't unbanned until now, and if you ask me, this is exactly the cause why we have so much problems with overtaking in the last decade.

@MihzvolWuriar

4 жыл бұрын

@@myster1ous23 All that I know is that GE was banned because it increased so much the speed at corners, safety standards weren't up to it back then, and I completely agree with that if it was the case, I don't however, agree with this view from the 2000s to now, safety standards were so good that F1 started to struggle without it, and I think it was because of this ban we had so much problems with overtaking... But I'm not 100% sure, too, and I'd welcome any insight.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Ground effect never went away. The diffusers everyone talks about are ground effect. The difference is that at the end of 1982, the FISA, as it was then known, mandated flat bottom cars, eventually with very specific measurements that had to be checked. For 2022, that rule has been lifted.

Isnt this something that the FIA is proposing for 2021? Where part of the chassis would be in sync with the wheels?

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Only a small part at the rear of the car. It’s not much more than the evolution of a brake duct.

Imagine the lotus 88 with the later developed active suspension....

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

The 88 became irrelevant at the end of 1981 when skirts were reintroduced for 1982.

Unpredictable and dangerous. Perfect synergy with the sponsor Courage.

i love these videos. thank you

@archibaldchimpin

4 жыл бұрын

pubwie chapman was a genius, probably a bit mad, but what a creative guy, I’ve always considered him the best ever.

Chapman was a genius. But even geniuses gets things wrong. Having said that, it's a stunning car for its time, just glad, under the safety circumstances, that it was never raced. It's far too easy to see that going the way of a few other beautiful but deadly designs (across the grid, not just CC's).

@StuntpilootStef

4 жыл бұрын

Chapman did way too many risky things in his cars. He is directly responsible for the deaths of Clark and Rindt. His 88 was dangerous on a whole new level.

@Chuckiele

4 жыл бұрын

@@StuntpilootStef Hes directly responsible for Rindts accident, but his death is completely on himself.

@StuntpilootStef

4 жыл бұрын

@@Chuckiele Yeah, that's the better way of saying it, I admit.

"The efficiency of the comprise" I love that, something.a lot of pseudo engineers miss. Colin Chapman is a classic example.

Judging by the title I thought they banned the Williams FW42!

I am surprised even a respected technical writer as Giorgio Piola seems to miss the point about the twin-chassis technology. All comments are focusing on the sliding skirts issue and the 6 cm ground clearance rule introduced in 1981. But the twin chassis technology was released well before this, and had nothing to see with the ban of the skirts. As explained several times by Team Lotus aerodynamicist Peter Wright, the objective was to fight the porpoising phenomenon, which generated constant variation in the pitch of the car and generated randomly lift then downforce in straight lines as well as quick bends. This phenomenon was extremely dangerous as the behavior of the car at high speed became totally unpredictable. This lead most F1 engineers to use outrageously hard springs to limit the phenomenon, albeit not remove it completely. The thing is, after the tests performed by Team Lotus at Jarama at the end of 1980 with the Lotus 86, then the tests at Paul Ricard in February 1981 with the Lotus 88, it appeared clearly that the porpoising was over for real with these cars. The car pitch and downforce generated by the ground effect became constant, and the drivers had a decent ride in their soft sprung structure. For these reasons, I don't understand Piola's comments about the drivers finding the 88 "dangerous", something which does not appear in period reports. It was for sure very different to drive as the dynamics of the car was for sure very different from what they had experienced before. We should keep in mind that these cars did only a few laps at speed, so it is very ambitious to issue firm statements based on so little feedback. I remember reading similar comments about the first active F1, the lotus 92 of 1993. Nigel Mansell was frightened by the car which had no roll nor pitch... Nobody would challenge the interest of active suspensions a few years later, though. My understanding is that the ban of the Lotus 88 and the authorization of Brabham's pneumatic suspension was an gigantic leap backwards in terms of security, as it allowed to maintain 1980's level of downforce while imposing extremely harsh suspensions on all cars, all conditions to create horrific accidents.

@iehen

3 жыл бұрын

"I don't understand Piola's comments about the drivers finding the 88 "dangerous", something which does not appear in period reports" i don't know Mansell's thoughts, but for sure Elio De Angelis was worried about the car and his brother confirmed this

It can still show potential, someone has to get their hands on the car and drive it on several tracks, look at the recorded data and feedback and make changes that could make new models more efficient and faster.

FIA: Wait, That’s illegal

Many cars ran without front wings in 1980 and 1982. In fact the Brabham BT-49, driven by Riccardo Zunino. shown at 1:55 shows the front wings set at a _negative_ incidence.

Now that's what we all call... Thinkin outside the box! U gotta give the man credit tho. (Colin Chapman) this type of radical thinkin is what made Lotus win World championships. 😁😁

It's pretty far fetched to suggest the motivation for this was driver comfort. I don't think the engineers give a crap about whether the driver is uncomfortable with hard springs. More likely it was the compliance of the car on a bumpy track and not being able to use the kerbs that was a bigger factor. If they could spring the main chassis softer they could use the kerbs and the car wouldn't be unsettled by bumps, while the secondary chassis could still run on the ground producing maximum downforce all the time.

Someone know the music at 1:23?

The irony is this is basically the same concept of the new 2021 F1 cars.

@DerHerrderWuerfel

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah... No, it isn't

@stpbasss3773

4 жыл бұрын

Not really ironic at all since this was like 50 something years ago lmao, shit changes every year in F1.

It's a pity it wasn't as good as it looked (I'm happy to take the words of the drivers - their the ones with their necks on the line after all - and I mean that literally), because that was a fricking beautiful car!

To be totally honest - the drivers said the car was unpredictable and dangerous. This is not only a risk for the drivers of them but for the other cars on the track as well. That's basically enough said about it. The sport would go away from actual driving talent over to whoever takes the highest risk of dying in the process by riding an unpredictable car. That's not the spirit of the sport. My opinion would change, if they actually solved the problem of sudden lifting, but they didn't (because it's basically impossible, as race tracks are never totally flat). Maybe in the future we can maintain the floor sealing by some sort of energy field, which fully adapts to road surface - but it isn't today and surely wasn't back in 1981.

“60 seconds equal one minute in Africa”

@Squilliam-Fancyson

4 жыл бұрын

I heard there are a lot black people in Africa.

@LuizAlexPhoenix

4 жыл бұрын

Where water is wet and is called rain when it falls from the clouds. The sky also looks blue when tgere are no clouds and gravity pushes you against the ground.

@BennyVolvo

4 жыл бұрын

@@LuizAlexPhoenix gravity doesn't exist...

@JONNOG88

2 жыл бұрын

@@BennyVolvo Gravity is a capitalist construct. That's why the USSR. Where the first into space.

good video!!

I'm no aerodynamicist, but that lifting issue could most like have been fixed. Maybe with like an actual front wing, minimalistic build to prevent too much drag of course. If just that isn't enough then maybe even a little more height to the rear wing too. After all just as downforce requires a certain speed too work, so would an up lift to raise the vehicle off the ground. Yes the car is primarily a ground effects car but surely you could combat the up lifting flaw with some more over body aerodynamics, no? Unfortunately we will never know. Unless someone were take the existing chassis, try to develop it to be comfortable and competitive with 1981 F1 times. Keeping with in the regulations of the day. Right like that'd happen. One can dream.

@swine13

4 жыл бұрын

Aerodynamicist... I cant even pronounce the bloody word

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Wouldn’t matter. It was illegal anyway.

A main chassis being sprung as the main part of the car with an unsprung structure to amplify ground effect? Isn't that pretty close to what the 2021 ruleset is bringing?

@chrishamilton2559

4 жыл бұрын

Yes. In both Formula1 and Indycar

@stpbasss3773

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah guess what......rules change lmao

@mrjohnnyk

4 жыл бұрын

He was 40 years ahead of time

Unfortunately, this is a problem both in the past and present in all levels of racing, not just F1. As a dirt late model chassis builder, I can assure you that innovation is being stifled everywhere. Made a technically legal change that wipes the floor with current technology? Banned.

@neutronalchemist3241

4 жыл бұрын

This car didn't pass a single check of the stewards, since it was a blatant cheat. Rules banned mobile aerodynamic surfaces. Making them bigger and naming them "secondary chassis" didn't make them legal.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

@@neutronalchemist3241 Close. Banned under the rule that says all aerodynamic devices must be fixed to the suspended part of the car. The so-called “primary chassis” was fixed by a series of linkages to the suspension uprights, making it illegal. You can see the linkages in the video and in Giorgio Piola’s drawings.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Had nothing to do with technology. Chapman was playing semantics.

Very interesting. I’ve always wondered how the 88 would have performed on track? I read that Chapman was devastated when it was banned and in some ways contributed to his death at the end of 82?

@FrontSideBus

4 жыл бұрын

Stig qwe It’s certainly interesting in what might have been as he would have been jailed if he had lived!

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

It's hard to know what was going through Chapman's mind at the time. His business partner John De Lorean had been jailed for cocaine importing and Chapman's own accountant was also given four years for fraud. Had he lived, Chapman would have spent at least ten years behind bars, according to the court. I have no doubt that this was a major contributor to his obstinacy when it came to this and why he wanted to take it to court.

At least I got to race at last year's Historic Monaco Grand Prix and it was brilliant to see the car driven in anger there 😊

Brabham only ran the hydro-numatic suspension in 81' because the rules changed for the cars to run with a higher ride height, to stop the teams running ground effect skirts. It wasn't to make a better ground effect car, but to get around the rules.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

Williams did the same with active in the '90s. They basically were just jacking the car up in the straights, and slamming the car to a flat, downforce optimal level in the corners.

@weallfollowmanutd

4 жыл бұрын

@@DapperHesher I know what you're saying, however the reason Brabham did it was to cheat. Williams weren't cheating with active suspension. Basically the stewards in 1981 had to measure the cars before they left the pitlane and came back after each session. Brabham had a button to raise the car with a bottle of air, so they could get round the rules. It was farcical. Everyone else copied it after one race.

I don't know about the spirit of the rules. I thought the reason for banning was under the movable aerodynamic device rules. Wish they still had that rule now.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

They do. There have been exceptions, like DRS and skirts. This was banned because it was a suspension-mounted aerofoil, regardless of what Chapman called it.

It's completely unfair to say this though because it was a revolutionary design and hadn't gotten the chance to be developed and refined in race conditions. It was the worst dual-chassis car in the history of F1.

It's hard to believe it would have been as bad a Piola states without the drivers talking to the engineers to work on how to resolve those problems during development. You know, like teams used to do. It's also hard to believe that, with a first iteration like the 88 was, that there would be no problems to resolve or to put it another way, improvements that others would make over time. Much like other teams built on Chapman's innovation in many earlier examples of the man's genius. Sadly, we will never know thanks to it being banned.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

What? You think they didn’t? De Angelis said it would take another 12 months of development to make it competitive. It didn’t matter because skirts were reintroduced for 1982 and the 88 became irrelevant.

Love Giorgio

Mario was great at setting up a car, he taught the concept of tire stagger used in Indy car

I don’t get how Colin Chapman ever thought this car would be allowed. The outer body is a movable aerodynamic device.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

It technically didn't break the rules. Scrutineering happened at a slow pace where the secondary chassis would have cleared the ground clearance minimums.

@Phos9

4 жыл бұрын

Ryan Miller it’s not a question of ground clearance, no moving aerodynamic devices was against the rules long before this car.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

@@Phos9 That wasn't exactly the letter of the rule back then. It was exactly the ground clearance, as that's precisely how they litigated the cars. Even now, you could argue the front wing (or underbody for that matter) is a "movable aerodynamic device" as the suspension and tire will inevitably compress under load. It's closer to the ground at 200 mph than at 0. There's no mitigating that. It's all the perspective of the rule makers and what they're willing to tolerate. Recently, a front suspension geometry that lowered the car significantly (just about any geometry will, at least on one side) got the spank. What comes around goes around.

@Phos9

4 жыл бұрын

@@DapperHesher The ground clearance regulations were why he had the second chassis, but that doesn't make the second chassis not a moveable aerodynamic device. Gordon Murray even routed a lot of BT46B's fan through a radiator, but the outer body of the 88 was just an aerodynamic device. He might as well have shown up with a Chaparral style wing pedal.

@DapperHesher

4 жыл бұрын

@john jones Lotus argued that the secondary chassis was no different than the primary and it was merely suspension for that part of the car. Again, it's all about the semantics and how the governing body wanted to see it. Obviously, they weren't having it. During the active era, the primary (and only) chassis was essentially working the same way and wasn't ever deemed a "moving aerodynamic device" despite the fact that that's EXACTLY what it was. The debate was there because well, it was debatable.

It still looks better on the front than the horrible wings on the front on today’s cars today, wings on wings on wings

I really love piola

Well if im not mistaken, William car also been banned at start of the season..🤣

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

The 6-wheeler?

Cool story bro, I’m gonna watch it again!

I miss those times in F1.

People here seem to like blaming Ferrari for what happened to the Lotus 88. In fact it was Ecclestone, Brabham owner, avenging his own 1978 Brabham bt46 fan car, banned after its maiden win in Sweden at the insistence of Colin Chapman himself who in 1978 (just three years before this) was otherwise dominating the scene.

Technically it's coming back for 2021. The ground effect aero elements will be separate to the chassis technically

Maybe not best F1 car ever, but definitely most beautiful one, specially in black

I'd like to see a new series outlawf2 any aadvantage any perfoemce enhancer is allowed you can push to the limit and beyond no spd restrictions let's see just how fast they can go .

Such a cool looking car though

If the 88 had gone through development - it WOULD have been very good.

Piola should make an F1 Car and show hes knowledge of Aero

I hate how f1 is so whiney. There is no "spirit" left, the.officails make it so cold and unfeeling.

Such amazing technological improvement banned immediately by the FIA

What if this technology is use is drag car where this chassis is being use to increase downforce ?

Latest addition Renault R.S.19 Illegal driver aid which still didnt get them out the midfield

Can I just say how friggin' cool this car looks? I mean seriously.

Everybody quiet!!! Giorgio speaks.

O famoso carro asa Sensacional o conseito de construção na época

It didn't break the spirit it broke the rules very clearly. Minimum ground clearance: It fails. Therefore illegal. If a time is not specified it must mean 'all the time'.

@jamesandonian7829

4 жыл бұрын

Did you watch and LISTEN? lol the rule only applies to stationary cars, when moving, air pushes down on the car and lowers it. Faster you go, the more the car will be pushed lower. Saying the rule should apply all the time makes zero sense. You see bottom cars scrap the ground all the time, doesn't mean their car is illegally too low.

If was a shame Colin Chapman died so young. Had he lived longer I can image Lotus would still be dominant be in F1.

Bonjour à tous, le FIA a banni le F1 Lotus à double chassis fin 1981 et vive le règlementation technique 1983 des F1. Merci cordialement, Johan.

What's with the spooky backsound, i'm literally listening at 2am

That chapman bloke was years ahead of his time when it came yo designing a f1 car

But the Brabham BT49 won the title that year by the same method of post race concealment.

The other teams didn’t like it because they didn’t want to have to copy yet another Chapman innovation to remain in the game again...

@neutronalchemist3241

4 жыл бұрын

The other teams didn't need to say anything. This car didn't pass a single check of the stewards, since it was a blatant cheat. Rules banned mobile aerodynamic surfaces. Making them bigger and naming them "secondary chassis" didn't make them lega. They complained only when Lotus kept on taking it to the tracks despite the car having already been banned.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Wrong.

You wonder how many great drivers lives were saved by banning this car

@mrjohnnyk

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah cars with lift issues like that could have lethal effects when a car in front messes up their airflow.

Welp now they're back

It was a shame the fate that Mr. Chapman got. Never F1 saw another man with such knowledge as his.

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Dr Harvey Postlethwaite.

1:54 Ricardo Zunino

The Early 80s f1 car looks like amphibious car

Me la ricordo bene, ed era inguidabile, come si lamentò Elio.

Reminds me of the 787b. Get beaten by 4 whole laps at LeMans? BAN IT!!!

@fredblair4307

4 жыл бұрын

just another reason I don't watch f1 anymore

@thethirdman225

2 жыл бұрын

Banned because of excessive oil consumption. Perfectly legitimate reason. It would never be allowed at Indianapolis.

Who knows, with development it may have worked well

I can see it working with today's technological advancements