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@shittinontheceiling3474

9 ай бұрын

In the first problem you save someone's organ

@martynspooner5822

9 ай бұрын

Wouldn't it be great if you could go through life and your biggest problem was some frigging trollys my estate is full of them but they are a load of wronguns. They do run in burning buildings to save their drugs so not all bad I guess.

@shyamagrawal8375

9 ай бұрын

My version of the trolley problem: It is basically for the people who choose not to pull the lever. Considering the original trolley problem, now increase the number of people from 5 to 6..7..8..9.. and so on till infinity. Will you still never pull the lever letting so many people die. Or seeing so many people die you will change your mind and pull the lever. If you do pull it, then at how many number of people will you pull the lever? And why is this number so special, so that you pulled the lever at this number only and not before that? I mean what will make this random number so special for you that it will trigger changing your mind?

@QuinnArgo

9 ай бұрын

This is honestly an embarrassing sponsorship. It's not even that I'm opposed to having someone contextualize the ideological leanings of sources for a more reflected understanding, but the key feature being the "blindspot" thing that helps you see "what you would otherwise have missed" is so full of presuppositions of a golden and correct center about how news information pre-exists its publishing and how one has a duty of knowing every story reported by "every side" as if there aren't good epistemic reasons to selectively read the works of authors and outlets who take a clear stance is just silly.

@jasondean88888

9 ай бұрын

6:40 There is no suck thing as an objectively "meaningful" life. I think I've slid into Nhilsm. I don't enjoy it.

Problem 1: even if the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12, the trolly would still kill each person on the track because it would roll over individuals one at a time, not all summed.

@djsUltra

9 ай бұрын

But when it got to the end, everyone would be revived and one tiny 1/12 sized person would appear. If you pull the lever, you're depriving that tiny guy of his existence.

@RoseGoldKR

9 ай бұрын

@@djsUltrait will never reach the end however due to the nature of infinity meaning for the rest of time more people are dying. However, the sum is not -1/12 so this argument is irrelevant anyway.

@user-qi7xx5ih6z

9 ай бұрын

​@@djsUltraEven if that absurd hypothetical was true do you really think that the finite life of a 1/12 of a person is worth the infinite deaths experienced by the revived people?

@AuthorJakeAStrife

9 ай бұрын

But would it even have the momentum to keep running over people. It would probably get derailed even at some point....

@AnagramGinger

9 ай бұрын

@@djsUltrafor every twelve people failing this trolley problem, someone unrelated to this problem doesn’t die. Something he also wouldn’t have done if it happened in any other way.

I'm just imagining a trolley mowing down an infinite number of people, everyone else running around screaming, blood everywhere... "It's ok guys I'm actually saving one twelfth of a person, just wait and see!"

@irrelevant_noob

9 ай бұрын

Well, who's going to say that after the trolley has finished going over that track he wouldn't be right? 😈

@cubicinfinity2

9 ай бұрын

@@irrelevant_noob If it takes any amount of time to go over the people then it will never finish running over the people, so we'll never be proven that the result is -1/12.

@Takyodor2

9 ай бұрын

@@irrelevant_noob To preface this: no, I'm not fun at parties. Ackshully, it would take an infinite amount of time for the trolley to mow down an infinite number of people (assuming it moves with finite speed and acceleration), so that 12th of a person that may or may not get saved will only get saved after the heat death of the universe. Since there are by definition no people left after the end of time, it would be too late so to speak. The reason I'm not fun at parties is that I'm no longer invited btw.

@irrelevant_noob

9 ай бұрын

@@Takyodor2 pretty sure everyone understood the context you've highlighted there. But the issue is that NO, it's not "by definition" that there are no people left after the end of time. And who's determining whether something was late or not?

@Sjaapdespaak

9 ай бұрын

trust me bro

For the one with the circular track, I like the implication that someone is bringing him food, water, even entertainment and company, and yet they refuse to just untie him

@AlphishCreature

9 ай бұрын

That's what I've been thinking throughout as Alex described the scenario of the person starving and such! It was never stated that the help would never come. Plus, depending on how much time it takes for the trolley to go through near-full circle, between one switch or another we could get plenty of time to call for such help ourselves (especially if there's phone signal). Also, another thing: the trolley could eventually run out of fuel or otherwise be put to halt, especially if in-between our level-turning we put some obstacles in the trolley's way.

@Narko_Marko

9 ай бұрын

Its a villain who tied him there, he wants you to feel worse.

@eggoego

8 ай бұрын

Another thing that is never mentioned is your own need for sleep and other obligations. How often do you need to pull the lever to stop it from hitting the person? How long could you, in theory, last before exhaustion overtook you, and you failed to stop the trolley? Does trying to keep the lever in the middle stop the trolley? Is there some way you can extricate yourself from the situation without letting the person die? If you swap places with someone so that they are now the one flipping the lever back and forth, are you dooming them to a life of moral guilt? If you were the person who was swapped into position, would you forgive the person who put you in that position if they conned you into it? I probably would. If I didn't, how could I justify swapping with someone else and leaving it to them? Do you feel more or less guilt about letting them die if you are not the first person to control the lever?

@conundrum60690

7 ай бұрын

That was my main thought, assuming you even CAN put it back and forth (it doesn’t clarify that). Then eventually someone else can help:

@jamman3921

7 ай бұрын

not to mention the people actually on the trolley

An historian named Herodotus, tells of a thief who was to be executed. As he was taken away he made a bargain with the king: in one year he would teach the king's favorite horse to sing hymns. The other prisoners watched the thief singing to the horse and laughed. "You will not succeed," they told him. "No one can." To which the thief replied, "I have a year, and who knows what might happen in that time. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die. And perhaps the horse will learn to sing.

@SchgurmTewehr

9 ай бұрын

I know that story but with a donkey which should learn to talk.

@pansepot1490

9 ай бұрын

@@SchgurmTewehr promising “to teach the king’s favorite donkey to talk” sounds like something with a double meaning. 😅

@falconeshield

9 ай бұрын

​@@pansepot1490Oh my

@pintpullinggeek

9 ай бұрын

​@@pansepot1490Depending on how much of a favourite that donkey was the king might not want it to talk at all!

@jimburton5592

9 ай бұрын

​@@SchgurmTewehrsure he can talk, it's getting him to shut up that's the trick!

I'd be weirded out at the possiblity of creating 1/12 a person at the first one. Pulling the lever for sure

@Emaberanger

9 ай бұрын

WHAT

@F4xP4s

9 ай бұрын

Depends which 12th appears 😅

@dylankrejci9965

7 ай бұрын

@@F4xP4sdick

@nangsanbhalangblah333

7 ай бұрын

SCP typa shit

@soggos732

6 ай бұрын

unfortunately -1/12 is just what the sum of all natural numbers would be IF the sum converges to a finite value however the sum does not converge

Problem three: I imagine pulling the lever is super hard and you need to struggle back and forth with the trolley always changing direction at the last moment. But you persist always saving this poor soul. You keep doing that you get to know this prisoner of fate, and slowly but surely pulling the lever becomes much easier. You find yourself getting stronger. You've gained muscle... and a friend.

@davecoop9579

9 ай бұрын

Until day three when the sleepiness overcomes you

@nunyabiznes33

9 ай бұрын

We can only imagine lever-puller, content...

@keeprollin9911

9 ай бұрын

musles an endurance dont grow as fast as youll rest exhausted from this hard work. rest periods are important. =/

@LikeemApples

9 ай бұрын

One must imagine him happy

@ukko1998

9 ай бұрын

why nobody think that maybe if you pull that lever long enough, there will come somebody else there and you can say to him/her to save the person? in normal trolly problem there is no time to anybody to help you to make decision, but in this problem there is planty of time to that. lot better to wait some time that somebody saves it than instantly let that person to die

For the first one, as Alex briefly mentioned but didn’t quite get into, the -1/12 summation doesn’t really hold in that context. This was a very confusing video by numberphile, but under most definitions, the sum of all natural numbers diverges. There’s great videos on this whole topic, made by a few different other math KZreadrs, who present it a bit differently (I highly recommend Mathologer’s video) Edit: Realized this was mentioned in the video

@Vfulncchl

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, the Numberphile video is a fluke, the sum is obviously infinity, at least not negative

@Chris_winthers

9 ай бұрын

Stop math. Just all of it. No more math.

@anthropomorphicpeanut6160

9 ай бұрын

​@@Chris_winthersas a mathematician I agree

@avatarmufasa3628

9 ай бұрын

we kinda need it for basically everything.....@@Chris_winthers

@CosmicSkeptic

9 ай бұрын

Telling the guy at the lever "bro you watched the wrong KZread video I've got some really bad news"

For the direction-changing lever, you can change the lever at such a time that the trolly severs the ropes without killing the victim. Severe injury is risked but I think it would be worth the effort, especially when compared to not trying at all.

@geoffdavids7647

9 ай бұрын

This. This is the kind of big brained comment I came here for

@WillCanSnortIt

9 ай бұрын

sometimes you just have to suspend some disbelief to think about the concept something poses

@jsbrads1

9 ай бұрын

The wheel aren’t sharp.

@audriusskebas3099

9 ай бұрын

Or you could just scream for somebody to go and untie that person while you stall for time if your not in the middle of nowhere

@hatyyy

9 ай бұрын

Or just call the police

10:02 Returing the trolley is obviously of benfit to me: I am sustaining a reciprocal cycle of returning trolleys, so that I will always find a trolley at a convenient location, because other people also return their trolleys. It is as much a benefit to me as is folding my laundered socks and putting them in my sock drawer.

@gnjoeyhowell

9 ай бұрын

Cart Narcs

@natekite7532

9 ай бұрын

No matter what you do, other people will continue to return their carts, and some worker will find your cart and return it. Your impact on the overall cart ecosystem is minimal. However, if everyone stopped returning their carts, this would be an issue. So this becomes somewhat of a delimma if you have something to gain from not returning the cart. If you don't return the cart, you benefit and the damage to society is minimal, but if everyone made the same choice as you, the system collapses. Do you act selfishly? You benefit unfairly, but it doesn't hurt anyone. Or do you act selflessly, wasting your own time for no reason?

@NielMalan

9 ай бұрын

@@natekite7532 You get my point. The system will collapse if everyone made the same choice of not returning the trolley. I benefit from returning the trolley, because it helps keep the system intact. The small investment of returning the trolley has the dividend of never having to hunt for a trolley, or worse, carring all my groceries. Returning the trolley is not a selfless act.

@pansepot1490

9 ай бұрын

I struggle to get it. Where I live all supermarket trolleys have a lock that unlocks with a coin (usually 1 or 2 Euro). If you return the trolley you get your coin back, else the coin remains in the trolley for the next person willing to redeem it. I am old enough to remember decades ago before the coin locks were introduced that people left trolleys all over the parking lot then, when it started costing them something, however little, everyone diligently returned their trolley to their proper place. 😅

@NielMalan

9 ай бұрын

@@pansepot1490 Yes, when I lived in the UK I also used the coin-unlocking trolleys. I'm not sure everyone actually return their trolleys for the coin, but there is always someone who will, to get the coin. In the US the trolley problem was solved by creating little trolley corrals in the parking lot, so that it's not too far to walk to put the trolley away, and one collects a trolley from the corral, not from the supermarket door. Where I live there are freelance trolley attendants who will push your trolley to your car, transfer your groceries, and return the trolley to the supermarket door for a tip.

Am I the only one that leaves Alex playing in the background and feels relaxed while multitasking?

@CosmicSkeptic

9 ай бұрын

"There are an infinite number of people about to be lacerated and dismembered by an unstoppable train" "How relaxing"

@asmodeuszdewa7194

9 ай бұрын

​@@CosmicSkepticat least it isn't me

@tundrazzr3659

9 ай бұрын

It think Alex is worth more than background noise. He's saying some very insightful stuff.

@brotherben4357

9 ай бұрын

Sometimes multitasking, sometimes multibating. It depends on my mood.

@feedingravens

9 ай бұрын

As long as it is not more than 7 tasks you do... The ultimate source of wisdom, The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, teaches us we can keep up to 7 items in our mind at the same time. It an 8. item comes up, the first item drops out of your conscience. The HHGTTG contains at least as much wisdom as the Bible - and the five-book trilogy is way more fun to read.

Alex no no no, you only get -1/12 if you use a Ramanujan summation (and please dont use the Numberphile video for reference--it doesnt actually represent how you would prove this). This does not mean that its "typical value" is -1/12, it really does diverge in that sense, there are just things in complex analysis that let us think of the sum in an unusual way. Please do not misrepresent this

@froggo5690

9 ай бұрын

boohoo

@elijahcarroll8755

9 ай бұрын

@@froggo5690 true and based

@proanimator.

9 ай бұрын

Yup Mathologer, a highly respected math channel proved the Numberphile video was bogus

@anaveragekiwi

Ай бұрын

alex o connor specified he wasnt a mathematician and he wouldnt be able to understand this without becoming more of a mathematician, and he admitted the claim that the sum of all integers is -1/12 is dubious.

4:47 are we just assuming the trolley never runs out of fuel?

@Echogem222

9 ай бұрын

Who says it runs on gas? Maybe it's powered by electricity through some type of method that never runs out of energy.

@wippok42

9 ай бұрын

Generally in philosophy thought experiments it seems to me that external factors that are not mentioned in the problem, such as the fuel, whether the person can untangle themselves, whether police will come etc. Are ignored, so the philosophy can be discussed in isolation

@rhinocraft2594

9 ай бұрын

@@wippok42 True , but alex did explore the possiblity of starvation which occurs under the assumption that characters in the problem require food . This seems external to me and so I considered other externalities such as the mentioned fuel ; if the person on the tracks can run out glycogen reserves then why cant the train run out of fuel ? but I get your point , I'm just taking the problem too literally .

@pansepot1490

9 ай бұрын

The fact that these philosophical problems are so abstract makes me difficult to take them seriously, (I mean as things with actual usefulness). In physics thought experiments are abstract too but they work very well to explain very real real-life physics. Imo a philosophy problem badly translate into real life because irl any of the dozens of variables that can happen may significantly alter the outcome.

@wippok42

9 ай бұрын

@@rhinocraft2594 idk where the line is meant to be drawn for whether things should be considered in the problem

Problem 4: I’ve talked about being good and doing good a lot with my therapist. I’m self-aware enough to know that when I help other people, it makes me feel good because I am highly empathetic. I will find someone to help when I’m having a bad day. To cheer myself up. Which makes me feel selfish for doing it. In the end, it doesn’t matter. You are doing good for others and for yourself, and the person you are helping would want you to feel good for helping. It’s still creating more good, even if the good is for yourself and someone else.

@Greenicegod

8 ай бұрын

The way I've worded it in the past: love is not a zero-sum game. Just because I feel good helping you does not negate the fact your were helped.

@genesis697

6 ай бұрын

Imo its an evolution thing. In order for us to survive, we needed to help eachother. But we wouldnt have helped if there wasnt any joy involved in doing so. So you feeling good doesnt mean you are selfish, it means you are human. Same thing with reproduction and pleasure in sex. Its important for the human species to feel joy in sex and also in helping others. So by feeling good for helping others you are literally serving humanity. And thats something you should be proud of.

@lucyandecember2843

4 ай бұрын

o.o

Problem Three: Also, if there's someone else around, someone else can untie that person instead of just feeding and reading to him.

@7takes

9 ай бұрын

thats not the point of the problem though, youre not supposed to be able to untie the person else these memes wouldnt exist

@allanjmcpherson

9 ай бұрын

Exactly, flipping the lever back and forth is like doing chest compressions while you wait for the EMT to arrive

@Where_is_Waldo

9 ай бұрын

@@7takes Well, in the first "trolley problem" ever proposed, this was explained as part of the problem due to there being too little time to untie any potential victim(s). It is an explicit part of the problem which was proposed to demonstrate an unrealistic dilemma and illustrate that, when faced with such a dilemma, no one with empathy can make a choice which doesn't cause them empathetic suffering. This ironic "trolley problem" doesn't specify that no one else will ever encounter the scene after you start switching the direction back and forth and that no one can be called to the scene to help, hence Alex supposing someone else coming to make the victim's life better but, if someone else can do that, why can't they also save the victim?

@7takes

9 ай бұрын

because this is a hypothetical where the victim must stay tied to the tracks. if someone could untie the victim then alex wouldve mentioned it

@grmpEqweer

9 ай бұрын

So it's a fake.

Hey Alex, I don't comment a lot but I thank you for your content, it's helped me a lot. Take care.

@CosmicSkeptic

9 ай бұрын

I don't reply a lot but thanks for your comment

@davidjanbaz7728

9 ай бұрын

@@CosmicSkeptic Aliex U reverted back to cosmic Skeptic : I knew iT was just a scam! LOL 😆

@jawad-0

8 ай бұрын

​@@CosmicSkepticdoes that mean you actually secretly read all the comments 👀

In the third scenario, with trolley hitting the person in both directions, a solution you didn't mention is the social dimension. If there were thousands or millions of people, and they were somewhat organised (imagine that!) they could agree to pull the lever each one for a couple of minutes or hours. They could even agree on paying a subset of people to pull the lever back and forth in 8 h shifts. I guess we just invented social services and public health care.

@Greenicegod

8 ай бұрын

I feel like if you had thousands or millions of people standing around waiting to pull the lever for a few minutes, you could instead have someone go untie the person while you pull the lever

@yegotnoclue

6 ай бұрын

​@@Greenicegodsounds too expensive.

@GoethedieKroete

5 ай бұрын

Kinda, if it weren't a exceptional situation. We pay for Healthcare for others because we expect the same in return. People would need reassurance that others would also pull the lever for them if the situation arose again.

@ethanpunto9222

4 ай бұрын

​@@GreenicegodYea but then you'd be accused of costing millions of jobs

What if you're returning a shopping cart in a post apocalyptic world where you're the only survivor and you've looted the store? With no OCD about returning it to its rightful place, you're returning it out of habit and gaining nothing 🤣

@Apollorion

9 ай бұрын

By obeying your habit you relieve yourself of your duty to make a decision, so you do gain something.

@SchgurmTewehr

9 ай бұрын

No, you still gain what he explained.

@XeonSX

9 ай бұрын

You’re also be returning it back knowing it’ll be easier to find it / metal later in that place, therefore serving yourself in the long run.

@justsayin...1158

9 ай бұрын

True, returning the shopping cart wouldn't gain you anything, but only because you don't have the duty to do so anymore. However, putting almost any trolley problem in a situation where you are the only person alive, would make them quite easy to solve. As there are no more people on the tracks... or at least no living people...

@pintpullinggeek

9 ай бұрын

In a post-apocalyptic scenario I would keep the one trolley permanently because I need some way to transfer my loot back to my home and I don't want to have a mountain of trolleys outside my place. Although of course I could use the wire frames to fashion tools and traps. Of course I probably also want to stay mobile so would I even use a trolley when looting as it would overburdened me. Am I thinking too much about it anyway, I'd almost certainly be amongst the dead!

Delaying the death in the loop gives some time for someone to rescue the man or remove the the detinator from the track. You can likley pull the lever and make a cell call for help. The video on selling all your posessions was excellent.

the sum of all natural numbers does not equal -1/12, it simply diverges

@proanimator.

9 ай бұрын

Yup. Mathologer debunked that Numberphile video

7:20 Every time you breathe in, you flick the lever. When you breathe out, you flick it back. Wait too long without breathing and you'll be run over by the trolley.

It's scary we all have different perceptions of "quality of life" cos someday someone you might not agree with might be making that decision for you

@HOTD108_

9 ай бұрын

This is why it's so important that we all organise our own DNR (or equivalent) plans. It might just save, or in this case not save, your life.

@shirinatron3585

9 ай бұрын

@@HOTD108_ Mm. Just imagining a form listing every potential up to and including locked in syndrome. I wonder what people's minimum would be. I feel like when you're younger you feel like you'd wanna tick off the majority of them, but as you get older you start to realise there's more to life than x y z and you can live without certain things. Idk

@XeonSX

9 ай бұрын

That day is right now. You have people what fly everywhere thinking they can freely do it without concern for others (emissions / carbon) and then there are bodies that try to remove short haul flights and use economic levels to deter such behaviour.

@yahia9481

9 ай бұрын

​@@shirinatron3585 Just like democracy or free speech . Many believe in them . But when you ask them each has their own ideal of what that is

@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana

9 ай бұрын

To be honest, most of that difference is from humans who strongly value just living as a great, good thing.

5:20 what if you keep pulling the lever until someone else is able to take the man off of the tracks????

Regarding the sum of natural numbers, that series certainly diverges and there is no question about it. The context in which it is reasonable to associate the value -1/12 to it is in the analytic continuation of the Riemann Zeta Function. The idea is that we have a function with a severely limited domain, but we can extend it in a particular way so that we have more to work with. In this particular extension it so happens that we must assign the value -1/12 to the function at this hilarious divergent point.

@LagMasterSam

9 ай бұрын

There's a diagram on wikipedia for the article "1 + 2 + 3 + 4" that succinctly shows how the result is achieved. It's so much easier to understand than the Numberphile video.

@DeiBrutti

9 ай бұрын

@@LagMasterSam haha beautiful, never expected there would be a dedicated wiki page on this but I suppose I am not surprised. Thank you for sharing! If you look into youtube videos that discuss this issue from the perspective of the zeta function you will find gold. I can’t recall any in particular at the moment but you have my word they are out there if you look. Cheers!

i'm obsessed with this series! your channel is amazing

I was going to post about the -1/12 thing mainly being "fake/bad math" but looks like everyone beat me to it.

@LagMasterSam

9 ай бұрын

It's not "fake/bad" if it's explained properly. The y-intercept of the parabola formed by the smoothed asymptotes of the partials sums for (1+2+3+4...) is -1/12. The issue is the use of an equal sign. It's confusing because the equal sign in this context does not mean the same thing as an equal sign in most arithmetic contexts.

@jamesdavis3851

9 ай бұрын

@@LagMasterSam I'd argue that it's more the ellipses that don't have the usual meaning. "it goes on forever" isn't a mathematical definition of an infinite series, and it needs a concrete definition to mean *anything*. The "..." often means the expression is the limit of an infinite reimann sum, but if you want to define the expression "1+2+3+..." as the evaluation of an analytic function for a specific value, (reimann-zeta at -1), then the equal sign is fine, it's the left hand side that has a kinda unusual meaning.

I did not EVER expect a trolley problem meme analysis video to get this deep and philosophical.

I've been loving your podcasts, Alex. I Hope that there are some more in the pipeline!

I love these videos that just make me think a little bit more. Great video!

Hello dear friend, pal al, just wanted to drop by and express my gratitude. Your videos have been a total game-changer for me, even though I'm on the younger side. Your knack for explaining concepts has sparked a genuine fascination for philosophy in me. Thanks for that!

Really fascinating. A topic I'd love to see Alex tackle is how ethics actually is or isn't helpful in leading a good/happy life; or what a good/happy life ought to be, how effective it is in doing that, if the desire to be virtuous is self-sabotaging or incoherent in the face of situations or if it adds more maximal value, etc.

@ictogon

9 ай бұрын

I LOVE EGOISTIC CONSEQUENTIALISM I AM SO HAPPY

Cant wait for more great content Alex!

Hey Alex, just wanna say thank you. I'm from China, I grow up thinking philosophy is all about those Kant and Hegel books that nobody seems to understand. You showed me how fun philosophy can be. Keep it up my man❤

@davib.franco7857

8 ай бұрын

I don't know about Hegel, but Kant is really interesting, give him another chance

Much of Ramanujan's work was based on a metaphysical relationship to the Euler-Maclaurin summation formalism. It allowed him to derive this constant and many others in the earlier chapters of his second notebook. He was anticipated by Euler, I think at the end of Euler's work on the Analysis of the Infinite, if I remember properly Euler extends the method of finite differences to finite differences of "infinite quantities" and derives this result.

I think my favorite one is where pulling the leaver defers the decision to someone else at another lever.

Problem Four: I have long maintained that there is a distinction between being selfish and being self centered. Every motivation anyone can have is self centered as articulated by Alex in the video. Even if I do something only because I want to make someone else better off, it's the positive feeling I get from the other person being better off that motivates me, it's always a benefit to myself that sits at the center of my motivation even if achieving the goal that motivates me necessitates causing a positive effect to someone else and appreciating that positive effect on someone else. Being selfish, on the other hand, isn't predicated at all on the well being of others. With only selfish motivation one would never consider the well being of others as a motivation although one might use kindly deeds as a means of improving one's own image, the motivation would never be in loving the joy or well being of someone else. I'd say that at best, people have a mix of merely self centered and truly selfish motivations but selfish motivations aren't inherently harmful. If I do something only to serve myself without any consideration for anyone else and it only effects me then I've done no harm, it's only when there's a cost to someone else to benefit ourselves that we need to analyze and weigh the results of the action to determine if we consider it moral. Speaking for myself, it's pretty clear when there's clearly no major detrimental effect on someone else that the action is acceptable and pretty clear when the detriment to someone else dwarfs the positive effect on one's self that the action is immoral... but it get's complicated when we examine actions which lead to comparable positive effects for the action taker and negative effects on someone else. This is why it's inconceivable to me to suppose a god who is all powerful and who also loves us all: there are countless situations faced by most people at some point or another in life that would allow an individual to cause life changing good for their self by knowingly causing comparably life changing harm to someone else.

@FilipinaVegana

9 ай бұрын

Sin is that which falls short of a mark. That mark is perfect holiness. Any thought, word, or deed predicated on SELFISH gain is sinful, and such evil thoughts and actions result in pain (and usually suffering). It seems that virtually every thought we have is motivated by self-satisfaction! How is sin, as defined above, distinguished from crime? Crimes are punishable offences, whilst sins are dispositions that cannot of necessity be judged and condemned. For example, how is a mother to punish her daughter for being prideful, unless the child’s pride MANIFESTS in an action, such as verbally-abusing her parent? Thought-crimes such as lust, greed, and pride, are largely self-harming, until they fructify as actions. Of course, the assertion that a thought can be criminal in nature is a point of contention in both Theology and philosophy. However, unless the mind is subdued by meditation, it is practically impossible for sinful thoughts to not manifest in some kind of malicious behaviour. Nevertheless, simply by possessing sinful thoughts, one is afflicted with a form of psychological anguish, which is a form of gratuitous suffering. According to most Theistic religious traditions, particularly the Abrahamic religions, as well as most schools of Hinduism, the concept of sin relates exclusively to thoughts and actions that contravene divine commands. For example, according to one of the most important Christian Theologians in church history, Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430), sin is “a word, deed, or desire in opposition to the eternal law of God”. Notwithstanding the notion that a set of normative moral mandates enclosed within atemporality seems to be rather paradoxical, it has been adequately demonstrated in the seventh chapter of this Holiest of Holy Scriptures, “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, that the ground of all being is BEINGNESS Itself (“sacchidānanda”, in Sanskrit), so the concept of sin is henceforth disentangled from the fact of a Supreme Deity. There are SEVEN cardinal sins, that is, seven thought processes (or acts) that are intrinsically evil, and can rarely (if ever) be morally-justifiable.

@thunderspark1536

9 ай бұрын

​@@FilipinaVegana You seem to be aware of the concept of how humans operate, but completely fail to grasp the actual HUMAN part of the equation. Humans are motivated by chemical reactions in the brain, so literally everything we do can, yes, be seen as being motivated by self-satisfaction. That includes religious ones, such as the fuzzy feeling during worship, the communal feeling of a group with shared ideals, the comforting words of a priest. All of it is an internal source of happiness and pleasure, which is why religion sprang up at all, it serves a useful chemical function. The "sins", as mentioned, are actually necessities of existence at all, and if gone humanity would cease to be. Without Pride, you would not have any faith in yourself and likely fall into depression. Without Greed, you become complacent and never make anything new. Without Wrath, you would be unable to defend yourself if need be, or protect those you love. Without Envy, you would not seek to improve yourself and be stuck in the same story day in and day out. Without Lust, humans would reproduce far less, likely leading to the specie's extinction. Without Gluttony, you would never be able to gain muscle and become stronger. And, without Sloth, you would literally die from lack of rest and sleep, needed for the body to fix itself. The key here is MODERATION, like anything else. One can feel any emotion, and release it in a POSITIVE way. The idea that "It is practically impossible for sinful thoughts to not manifest in some kind of malicious behavior" ignores very helpful methods for handling such emotions. Pride begets confidence, greed begets ambition, wrath begets parental instincts, envy begets self-improvement, lust begets love, gluttony begets abundance, and sloth begets energy. It all matters how we use it, not on the feeling itself. I for one, would prefer using what I have to the fullest, to trying to eliminate that which makes you HUMAN. After all, we're made in the image of God, and God is shown to be very wrathful (flood) and envious (tower of babel) many times.

@feedingravens

9 ай бұрын

@@thunderspark1536 The Flood: Only 8 people survive, they have spoken with God, they have been instructed by God, they have been told ONLY they are good enough servants to deserve to survive, they have seen first-hand that God's Wrath is to be taken VERY seriously, that when you mess with him, there is no escape or consoling him, they have esperienced first hand that he has the power to destroy a whole world to make his point. And these best of the best spread out all over the world after the flood. One should think these best of the best are able to pass on this true first-hand experience to their ancestors to save them from another wrath attack (large or small) of the loving God. And yet, for 2,500 years or so, when the ancestors of Noah moved beyond a few hundred miles away from Palestine, they obviously forgot about that wrathful, ultra-powerful God and took on the exact same regional culture that had been destroyed totally by this God. In all details. With all the old, wrong gods that did NOT save the culture and all the rituals. Scripture in China is 3,500 years old, tells NOTHING about settlers from Palestine or a Flood. By the way, it is a geological fact that 8,000 years ago the plane that is now the Black Sea was flooded in a catastrophic event, 90 meters deep. The new water is a true sea, you have no sight of land - when you drift far enough on there - maybe on the platform of your family's stilt house, that was standing on the lakeshore, with the family, your livestock, and all the small animals that had fled on the platform when the water rose (about 26 cm/day, the simulations say).

@feedingravens

9 ай бұрын

Tip from someone who writes endless comments: Put in lots of newlines, that makes the text way better readable = more people read it. Interesting aspects, I go along that our empathy against others that we feel as our own "kin" (which can also be our dog) makes us happy when they are happy, and as we can think in abstract terms, we can expand our "kin" to HUGE groups, even a Nation. We have to do our best to make people aware of this type of empathy, that people so to speak can actively seek it. And if it is not more than to make a remark in passing that makes someone smile for a moment. Zero effort, costs nothing. And on the other side, make people aware of those that exploit others for their own purposes. In principle psychopathy/sociopathy/narcissism to a smaller or higher degree. What I learned in the last years is that one has to make oneself aware of WHAT you think and WHY, and question that constantly. What I became aware of, I rather easily can grasp and improve. Down to making myself aware how to sit and hold the tiller and the sheet on my catamaran. Why did you capsize? Oh, you did not sit and hold your sheet so that you could uncleat immediately, so you lost half a second to uncleat, and that was too much, and you capsized. Now I sit differently, and practically do not capsize anymore. I know, a stupid example, but you can do the same tactic with your way you treat others. Watch how they react to you, whether that is what you want, and pick that what you want to happen and avoid that which failed. Just intelligent application of the Golden Rule, treat others like you want to be treated. How readable was that with the paragraphs?

@FilipinaVegana

9 ай бұрын

@@thunderspark1536 Logical fallacy. ☝️

this is such a fun concept for a video i love it so much

Wow, that's gotta be your best transition into a sponsor yet

Never even crossed his mind that someone could come up and untie the person as you were pulling the lever back and forth

I love this content, hope you make more trolley meme analysis

Please keep this as a reoccurring series!!!

7:27 if you can have people visit him and shit.....fucking untie him.

To the first problem: You would only save 1/12 of a person, if the trolley reaches the end of the track. Since the track has to be infinite, there is no way the trolley reaches it.

For problem 3, just wait until the trolley in in front of you, and the start racking the lever back and forth to keep it from moving, then knock on the door and yell at the driver to either pump the brakes, or get out and untie the man

These are absolutely thrilling

5:32 Actually, the most probable outcome without assistance is he gets hit by the trolley when you pass out from exhaustion or dehydration since you'll be putting in far more effort.

Here we go again . . . It's nice for you to do non-podcast videos every once in a while

I foresaw the Ground News one right when you started talking about biased news.

Circle trolley: you may be able to position the trolley such that you could get them out of their restraints before the trolley kills them

I love the podcast episodes, but classic CS videos fill me with a unique sense of calmness.

@adayah2933

9 ай бұрын

Especially when trolleys are rampant and people are dying

For the one about changing the direction, if it is only involving the contents of the scenario, then either you would fall asleep eventually, or he would. So I'd say that if you take the lever, then you keep going until they fall asleep (or you do) so either there is nothing more you could have done, or the man dies with less pain as he is asleep so would not be aware of it happening.

6:30 if you assume that nobody will untie the person you would conclude that in *all* the trolly problems *every body* who is tied to the tracks would die of thirst. i think its safe to assume that if somone would bring them food and water they would also untie them.

Love the channel Numberphile! So good! Great video Alex 💚👍🏼

8:20 I’m pulling the lever back and forth. While doing it I’m calling me engineer friend. She can design an automated lever pulling machine. I’ll then start a private company that hires people to work shifts watching the machine pulling the lever.

5:00 the trolly may face mechanical failure before he dies if you stall it long enough. Ill take that chance

That ad transition was the stuff of legend. Just, wow. GOAT status.

Add to problem 4 that you immediately forget about the event.

When Alex posts a new video I become naturally happy, as a computer scientist I saw that -1/12 coming xD

5:12 Maybe if you repeat it enough times the trolley will break 😂

respect for the clean segway into the sponsered segment

I've missed these videos!

5:55 That specific trolley problem is actually stupid. You pull the lever a few times until the trolley conductor stops the trolley to see what's going on or you can start yelling as soon as you start pulling the lever, bringing someone else over, who can free the trapped guy while you swing the lever a few times.

@lachlanrussell18

6 ай бұрын

None of these are possible. You are missing the premise of a thought experiment- you cannot do this any more than you can throw yourself in front of the trolly in the original problem, or throw something in to jam it’s wheels. These aren’t real situations, they’re thought experiments forcing you to engage with the moral dilemma. If it helps you imagine, let’s say the lever stops working if it’s let go of it, there’s no one around and there never will be, and the trolly is in the middle of the woods- no conductor, ect ect. The *only* action you can take is pulling the lever, or not pulling the lever.

@cutpaper

5 ай бұрын

@@lachlanrussell18says who

@lachlanrussell18

5 ай бұрын

@@cutpaper if you can go outside the bounds of engaging with the moral problem, then it’s not a philosophical question, it’s a shitty riddle. You don’t win by throwing a rock on the track and saving everyone, you lose, because you didn’t learn anything or ask any interesting questions.

@cutpaper

5 ай бұрын

@@lachlanrussell18 is pure evil allowed in the trolley problem

@lachlanrussell18

5 ай бұрын

@@cutpaper you’d have to define pure evil first

While I do enjoy the podcasts very much, I've been missing these sort of videos in the conventional format

Problem 3 is definitely one of my top 3 trolley problem variations

This is so fun to watch! 😃

The cart problem is also one of those that ignores the root of the problem: lack of self-returning carts.

You forgot to mention in problem 3 that you own some very interestingly shaped drawers. Also in problem 4, we don't have free will anyway. So it ultimately doesn't matter if we gain something or not.

@irrelevant_noob

9 ай бұрын

But it might matter to how we define "altruism."

@sandgunslinger2739

6 ай бұрын

Saying “We don’t have free will” like it’s a fact when it’s highly debated whether or not that’s true is a little bit of a loaded argument, just like how the problem says you gain nothing from returning it and Alex argues that you do gain something.

Aaand he's back. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the interviews but this is the Alex I'm here for the most.

Ignoring the purely mathematical problems with the -1/12 problem, here is another more physical way to look at it: From now on, for all time, the number of people you have killed will increase. At every point in time where you could be judged, the trolley will have run over a finite number of groups of people which sums to a large finite number of kills.

Pull the lever back and forth until the lever snaps off. Use the lever to derail the train. Use torn metal from the crashed train to cut the rope and free the intended victim.

I picked up the ad read like immediately but I listened to the whole thing because it was clever and it made me feel clever for seeing it coming

You’re the only KZreadr interesting enough that I don’t even skip your sponsored promotions.

This seems like a great way to put your type of content into bites. If you ever find a other ways to present and make these kinds of videos in other ways, I think I would watch more of you more often.

A little interesting factoid. I live in central Europe and our shopping carts are chained together and in order to unlock the shopping cart you need to put a 0.50€ coin inside it to unlock it. When you are done with your shopping, you connect it back to the chain and after that you can collect your coin. Safe to say nobody leaves their shopping carts in the middle of the parking lot.

@asagoldsmith3328

9 ай бұрын

That sounds like FASCIST COMMUNISM and we would never institute something like that here in AMERICA land of FREEDOM!

@dobbersanchez1185

9 ай бұрын

We have that in straya too. But the people leaving the trolleys everywhere are not unchaining the trolleys with money.

Problem 3: i will pull the lever back and forth until trolley runs out of fuel

I saw rhat sponsorship coming from a mile away, but I don't think I ever laughed this much in glee at how smooth a transition was before lmfao (except for the very end of that one video about No Man's Sky)

9:38 finally a true trolley problem

I’m Christian and praying for Alex. :) He is a very interesting character, that has some serious thought behind him.

For problem three, what if you only pull the lever half way so the trolley just stops?

- 1/12 is analytic continuation of actual function of sum to area where it diverges.

your left eye is lower than your right eye

@obamna225

9 ай бұрын

oh my god it is

@godassasin8097

9 ай бұрын

@@obamna225 ikr i have a problem with my eye where it sees kinda wonky if i use my phone too much and i got confused if i was seeing things correctly

My 12yo gave me a very cute answer to the trolley dilemma. I spiced it up a bit, saying he knew and loved the one person… He said that even if he loved the 5 persons on the other rails, he would have killed them, because less humans is always a good thing. So proud of him.

@pencilcase8068

9 ай бұрын

r/thathappened

@LunizIsGlacey

9 ай бұрын

@@pencilcase8068Mate, 12 is not that young. I can totally see this to be true bud.

@pencilcase8068

9 ай бұрын

@@LunizIsGlacey yeah you're right actually. It's just that this sounds so similar to those fake Twitter mom stories I find it hard to believe any story now

with regard to what he said at 9:30 there is a very good quote by Voltaire that says "a man is guilty of all the good he did not do." and i think it sums up that point quite nicely.

It seems like Alex just rolled out of bed and turned on the camera lol. Enjoyed this!

1. The trolley can’t go on for ever (if not sooner then when the heat death of the universe happens) so the summation will always be finite. 2. I don’t feel a moral obligation to sacrifice my life to save a stranger, so I wouldn’t keep pulling the lever back and forth until I die. 3. These trolley problems (apart from the shopping trolley) don’t have any consequence for the person at the switch. Adding a consequence would make these problems more interesting. 4. How about this. You have control of the switch. The town’s people know you’ve got control. Trolley can be routed to kill 10 people or your sibling. You believe the 10 people are part of a paedephile ring, the towns people think they’re very good people. What would you do?

If the bomb is inside the man but the detonator is on a train track the bomb won’t explode. Most explosive devices have three components: 1: Explosive component that is inert, and safe to handle. 2: a detonator which creates a small explosion, but sufficient to activate the main explosive material. 3: Triggering system that activates the detonator. This can be a fuse, a remote trigger either from a dedicated remote trigger, or can also be rigged to activate via cell phone.

The one with reversing the direction, the answer is you call for help on the phone as you switch the lever and continue to do so until they arive and have untied the man.

Don’t know if I’m just tired but I’m literally laughing so hard at these. Philosophy and comedy all at once 🤪

@ionasmith1998

9 ай бұрын

He’s so funny!

Return the cart? Depriving a high-school student of a job, increasing the store owner's profits while not benefiting from lower prices? No. Doesn't make me feel good.

Another typically astute and charming analysis. Thanks again. Back in the sixties, we were given the standard trolley problems as a test, in the seventh grade if I recall correctly, at age 12. I went with saving the maximum number of lives, even if it meant I had to actively divert the train. But it disturbed me, because I thought at that tender age there must be a "right" answer, and we were not told what it was, nor how we did. I wonder who got the results of these tests, and what was done with the information. cheers from cloudy Vienna, Scott

@irrelevant_noob

9 ай бұрын

I've recently come across an "absurd trolley problems" page on a site. The tame 5 vs 1 was as you said, "save the maximum number of lives" but then it got wacky quick. What about 5 vs 4? Does it still make sense to intervene when we know nothing of the 9 people involved? What about 5 vs MY best friend? These can become unsettling at any age, really. 😵

@therealzilch

9 ай бұрын

@@irrelevant_noob Indeed. This was the beginning of the end for any notion I might have had of there existing any kind of "absolute morality".

At 7:00, you should also consider that because he is stuck at the track he'll die of muscle atrophe and painful heart disease because he has no exercise

I would love to see the season of (the TV show) 24 in which Jack Bauer repeatedly pulls a lever to save a stranger who slowly starves on screen.

8:36 Arbitrarily taking hunger into account but not cellphone? Why couldn't the person that brought him audio books cut him free? Wouldn't you call a bombsquad? Why wouldn't the rail authorities deactivate the train? Wouldn't the trolley run out of power before he starves?

@Brunoswag04

4 ай бұрын

Because this is an ethics question and not a puzzle

Would love if you do another Utilitarian vs Deontological philosophical puzzle problems

4 videos warrants a Trolley Problem playlist which you could then add to the descriptions of the videos included in it for easy navigation (1 link > 3 links)

Wow, amazing trolley switch into an ad read!!

In problem three, all you would have to do is keep switching the lever until he could untie himself or wait for someone to get there to untie him

I would argue that suddenly spawning 1/12th of a person into existence is worse than simply not killing anyone. I don’t know what it means to be 1/12th of a person and I don’t care to find out.

Regarding the shopping cart: As a student in uni, I see it as my moral right to take the shopping cart home and use it to store empty beer crates or any other junk in the hallway.

Performing good things primes you to do it again, that's for sure