My husband is a carpenter, and when I showed him Overboard he HATED it. Because she threw his tools overboard. "What sort of a monster IS SHE? Doesn't she know how expensive they are?"

@the_glitter_is

2 жыл бұрын

Yikes. 🚩🚩🚩

@ThatWeirdFinn

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly!! Weird lady for doing that :o

@MsLeonthelion

2 жыл бұрын

@@ThatWeirdFinn Carpenters can't work without their tools! He refused to continue to watch the movie afterwards 🤣

@d.rabbitwhite

2 жыл бұрын

I thought the same. I know what it's like to lose a bunch of really nice tools. I was not fond of that movie, and that was only one reason.

@vanyadolly

2 жыл бұрын

Haha! That's sort of the point, isn't it? She's so awful that you have a hard time feeling bad for her in the beginning of the movie

I'm a militant feminist and Grease is one of my all time favorite movies. I'm aware that the movie is pretty misogynistic and am very critical of it, but I'm not gonna pretend that I don't have fun every time I watch it

@rrmenton8016

2 жыл бұрын

It's electrifying!

@EmileFeik

2 жыл бұрын

I think 'misogynistic' is a bit of a stretch... I mean yeah it shows a woman changing herself to please a man, but it's worth noting the cultural implications of her transformation; it's also her becoming liberated and taking control of her sexuality, rejecting old fashioned feminine norms. That still doesn't hold up to today's standards of feminism, but we must consider these films in the context they were made. it would be a far more sexist film if the transformation was in reverse, and the greaser girl turns herself into conservative repressed Sandy D to please her boyfriend. Also, consider the character of Rizzo. She's a girl who is obviously sexually active, and almost falls pregnant as a teenager, but the film gives her empathy and understanding, not judgement.

@laurenconrad1799

2 жыл бұрын

I love You've Got Mail and I am hyperaware of all the manipulation and lies from Tom Hanks and the fact that both characters cheat. I still love it. It's a film, not a moral treatise. lol

@ryanscates1011

2 жыл бұрын

It's pretty easy for me to accept that not every movie will 100% fit your own morals, politics, etc. I love The Marx Brothers Duck Soup despite it containing a racist joke. I love Perfect Blue, even though I can't watch the sexual assault scene (though I consider the movie to have an overall, rather feminist orient). Mulholland Drive is still the greatest movie involving lesbian main characters ever made in my opinion, even though it unfortunately uses the infamous "tragic lesbian" trope.

@ryanscates1011

2 жыл бұрын

@@EmileFeik I saw Grease a lot as a kid and I always saw Sandy's transformation as going completely against what I was so constantly told growing up "be yourself, don't let others tell you who to be or don't be something else to please other people." And that was what I disliked about, I saw it not as a girl becoming liberated, but choosing to no longer be herself, to become someone completely different, something she otherwise wasn't, to be with someone. Also, the taking up smoking part didn't help either.

Nobody's going to talk about Gideon giving his oldest brother, the guy who raised him, a straight up roasting over how badly Adam messed up as a husband? Because that's a high point of the story for me.

@rachelhansen2417

7 ай бұрын

Gideon is easily the best of them. He’s always been my favorite brother.

The first time I watched this with my Mom and the girls said 'mine' about the baby, she just laughed and said 'if they'd taken any of their mothers with them they'd have been able to tell the dads that none of those girls had been there long enough to give birth yet - that's what you get for leaving women out of things'.

@yanniakajohn3858

Жыл бұрын

That’s actually quite funny

@sandyr-w6906

Жыл бұрын

But tgen again, the baby could have been born early. My son came 3 months early.

@mortisrat

Жыл бұрын

@@sandyr-w6906 with nobody with any medical training, no medical equipment, no proper sanitation, no incubators etc... there's no way a premie would survive. Not all full term babies did.

@sandyr-w6906

Жыл бұрын

@@mortisrat i understand what your saying, but you forget the "movie magic" people are over analyzing the baby and all that. I enjoy the movie and Im not overanalyzing it.

@mortisrat

Жыл бұрын

@@sandyr-w6906 I thought it was a funny statement. You're the one who decided to try to disprove it, and now that I mentioned you made a rather silly point, suddenly the whole issue is irrelevant?? It was just a joke my Mom once made. It's funny, but also has a little truth history/society wise. Why try to pick holes in it in the first place?

I think the difference is: Had Overboard had the guy kidnap the rich woman because he had a crush on her and wanted to marry her, it would have been seen as creepy and uncomfortable as Seven Brides. As movie goers we know the story will likely end up there, but the story pretends it is about revenge with a romantic ending. We also spend time watching them fall for each other which justifies many misgiving we might have had. We spend time with the couple. As for Seven Brides, why some people love it, you need to watch it from a fairytail child perspective and cut out any adult understanding of reality. All the brothers and brides are attractive, all of them decent, the authors and viewers know this, it is rose-tinted, false and idyllic, because it comes from the storypoint that the kindappers and the kidnapped are already written as compatible in the writers/readers mind and they only need to walk the short path to romance to have a blissful happily ever after.

@Skye_Writer

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. The whole point to the barn-raising dance number is to give you this impression that the women from the town and the brothers take a fancy to each other despite the women already having suitors. This is exactly why the girls pay attention to the brothers even while the girls are dancing with their own suitors, and why they end the dance by leaving their suitors to jump into the arms of the brothers. It's meant to convey the impression that during the course of the afternoon, the girls had a nearly "love at first sight" moment with the boys. Just as Milly did the first time she looked at Adam (which is why she so distractedly ladled food into that guys lap instead of his bowl). Naturally, things go awry when the townsmen push the boys into having a brawl, mostly out of jealousy that "their girls" are suddenly making eyes at other men. Given the fact that boys don't get to go anywhere near the girls after the kidnapping, and that we know they are there for several months, the implication is that as the girls came to know the brothers better, they fell back on that initial attraction to the boys. Compare that to Overboard where a man gaslights and emotionally tortures a woman--who admittedly was a bitch, that's true, but at this particular moment is in a weakened mental state and has no idea who she is or what friends and family, if any, she can turn to--and does it all out of revenge. Getting her to do the chores around his house and deal with the kids because he's fed up and doesn't want to (and seemingly never had to when his wife was alive) doesn't help him recoup any financial loss from the job she stiffed him on. It's just for kicks. And yeah, he *does* have sex with her, after he's gaslighted her into believing she is his wife. Granted, not right away, it's at least a few weeks later, but still...she has developed these feelings for him under false pretenses. My mom loves both these movies, and on a recent rewatch of Overboard, I saw a lot about Overboard that made me uncomfortable and not liking Russell's character very much. And the whole thing was so "macho revenge fantasy" in the beginning that I never could find much to laugh at. At least with Seven Brides, there is a touch of unreality to it.

@Shay45

2 жыл бұрын

Another thing is the amnesia thing and her husband abandoning her. She was confused and not in terror like in ‘Seven Brides’

@eshbena

2 жыл бұрын

@@Skye_Writer Well, to be fair to Russell's character, he had to work and couldn't afford someone to watch his kids while he was out. Hawn's character had stiffed him out of the money to feed his family and care for them. The revenge aspect was there, but it was also a solution and a way for him to earn money to take care of his family, while leaving them to be cared for by someone who considered themselves their mom. She'd behaved in a completely inhuman manner, so it's understandable that he doesn't consider her humanity at first. The fact that he does try to tell her the truth and make up for what he did, but is stymied by his kids, is his own redemption arc there.

@kouusa

2 жыл бұрын

This. This is a fantastic viewpoint to take that explains so much.

@hdervish2497

2 жыл бұрын

I was 11 (1996) when we watched this in music class, and even then my class was pretty disgusted with the premise

One of the reasons I think I overlooked the kidnapping/sexism of 7 Brides when I was younger is because of the way women function differently in each setting. Millie has much more autonomy in the mountains than she does as a barmaid. In both the town setting and the rural setting, the girls are commodified by the men around them, but they are depicted as having so much more efficacy and self-determination in that rural setting. Their behaviors are sort of less confined (snow balls with rocks in them, deservedly so). During the kidnapping scene most of the women are needle pointing. The seem like decorative people with a decorative function. Out on the homestead, they are homesteading. The decisions the women make drive so much of the movie. Millie changes the trajectory of the brothers lives. The other women secure the brothers' lives and arrange their own marriages by outsmarting their own fathers. I feel like I intuitively understood this as a kid but then as I got older and more...detail oriented, I started missing the forest for the trees.

@MsDiving1

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. Society set some pretty severe limitations on them because of their gender, but ultimately they were able to empower themselves. I also think that movies focus too much on traditionally masculine ways of exerting power (ie beating the crap out of people for a zero sum solution), I think it’s nice to see power shifts in a more traditionally feminine way, with compromise and relationship building. Also, the dancing is awesome.

@UnicornandDragonlife

2 жыл бұрын

Completely agree. I watched this movie all the time growing up, and looking back on it I definitely see the parts that are problematic, but just like you said, Milly handled her situation with grace, forgiveness, and determination. She greatly effected the brothers' lives for the better and has way more autonomy and agency than she did in the bar. And we know that the girls did prefer the brothers to the guys they were "promised" to, which is already a disgusting thing to think about. Kidnapping shouldn't have been the answer but, they clearly like their lives when they have more agency and control. Kidnapping is still fucked up, but they could've gone back home when the snow thawed if they hated it so much

@mobstercassidy9400

2 жыл бұрын

@@MsDiving1 Jacques d'Ambois, who played the 5th brother Ephraim Pontipee, was actually a professional dancer with the New York City Ballet. He was cast in Seven Brides because he was a professional dancer

@LilyLewis771

Жыл бұрын

Sorry, I know this comment is old but I was rewatching this video and I think you nailed why I like this movie- it’s from a time (the filming and the time period of the film) when women had basically no other option but marriage and homemaking, and in the mountains the girls have a lot of autonomy within that sphere- Milly forbids seven men twice her size from entering the house, and they all listen. She makes them into civilized men and she’s clearly the ‘head of the household’ in a lot of ways, which within the context of the film… I don’t want to call it empowering but she’s not weak. The women are, at least, allowed to make some choice and have some amount of power.

@rebeccawhalen8855

Жыл бұрын

I agree! When she forces them to wash their clothes and shave their faces, she is not being submissive at all. She has forward force ✨️✨️

I think it's because is a musical and people assume it is a light tale, before listening to the plot. Also the aesthetics and the way Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is presented, it all seems so dreamy and removed from reality with it's cutsy music from western times (also not a feminine era at all, so even more removed from life) and with it's pretty technicolor sets and monochromatic costumes. All in my opinion makes the movie more "romcom" like, and very "feminine presenting" (but again this movie is my guilty pleasure😅)

@cheeseanpickle9832

2 жыл бұрын

I feel similarly. I feel it's more of a satire in my eyes then anything. (Also a favourite musical from my childhood 😆 always had a thing for Frank 😂)

@fefe_naomif

2 жыл бұрын

@@cheeseanpickle9832 omg yess😭😍

@cheeseanpickle9832

2 жыл бұрын

@@fefe_naomif My reply from that went on too long, so I had to make it a separate comment. 😂 Hope you see it too. (No pressure 😅) Was Frank your fav too? 😆😆😆

@fefe_naomif

2 жыл бұрын

@@cheeseanpickle9832 Yes! I guess I have a thing for ballet dancers🥴😂🥴😂😂

@Tuosma

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it being a musical does a lot to declaw the movie considering it makes it so much more absurd than something grounded which could be taken seriously. It is textually terrifying, but it's delivered in such a way that it's hard to take seriously.

It makes an immense difference that Seven Brides captures some of the best dancing and choreography committed to film, and Howard Keel and Jane Powell at the peak of their talents.

@ginapellegrini4934

2 жыл бұрын

I was hoping someone was going to mention this! The dancing and choreography is one of my favorite things about the movie, especially the barn-raising scene and the wood-chopping scene.

@mobstercassidy9400

2 жыл бұрын

And with Jacques d'Amboise being a professional dancer with the New York City Ballet, as well, ...

I’m not done with this video but I grew up in a theater family. I was exposed to this seven brides as a little girl and really loved it as a kid somehow. Looking back as an adult with my adult life shaped by sexism and sexually abusive relationships with men my relationship to this movie is so weird and I can only look back on it in weird horror. It makes me feel oddly indoctrinated. Idk how to explain it.

@francesbell9465

2 жыл бұрын

I was wondering the same thing, because I loved that story when I was in school. I am thinking that the issue is the difference between liking the story and liking the ideology. When we were younger, we didn't understand the values embedded in the story and just saw the women falling in love with the men. The story is cute if the reality is love. The problem is stories like this are created (and with unhealthy messages), which perpetuate unhealthy assumptions about women's roles and worth. Now that we understand the ideology, we are very disturbed.

@beejls

2 жыл бұрын

Indoctrination it was. I'm not saying that the playwright, composer, etc., were thinking about indoctrination, but it was the Zeitgeist of the 50s.

@francesbell9465

2 жыл бұрын

@@beejls I agree, I don't think anyone was trying to suppress women with a movie like this, it's just how people used to think and unfortunately these types of tropes in movies help to continue these ideas.

@nataliep856

2 жыл бұрын

@faithg7750

2 жыл бұрын

Hi! I just came back to this video and just wanted to say I loved your section on morality in media as well. Although seven brides for seven brothers still disturbs me and I think it’s not really material to show to your children without proper talks about consent and love (which I didn’t get as a kid). There is NOTHING wrong with loving this movie at all. I find women who like this kind of media especially get really shit all over by people thinking it’s somehow feminist to dunk women’s opinions all day and it isn’t healthy at all. I’ve been on the side of liking very similar problematic content and getting shit on in online groups that claim to stand up for me, it’s horrible. Put something that is often on my mind into words well. Don’t want someone to use my comment to fuel horrible media takes like that.

Honestly, the fact that this guy liked some of Ayn Rand's books because he thought they were satire is further proof of his point that, maybe, people can like problematic media without necessarily holding the problematic beliefs

@godzilla964

Жыл бұрын

I agree. I like "King Kong (1933)" and I never noticed the racial undertones until I started watching KZread.

I absolutely agree that we need to stop treating people's media preferences as a way to scry into their deepest souls and moral beliefs. One of my very favorite books is The Bone People by Keri Hulme, and I'm always a little afraid to say so. It makes you empathize with a child abuser, the child he beats, and the community that looks the other way. But it also immerses you in the perspective of the Maori people and those who are caught uncomfortably between Maori and colonizer ancestry, and it does it in breathtaking language, and I wish more people were willing to give it a chance instead of just writing it off because good and evil are not clearly marked out for them.

@maristiller4033

2 жыл бұрын

Same one of my favorite books is Lolita and I always have to follow it up with an entire explanation of the book so they don't think I'm evil lol

@davidcheater4239

2 жыл бұрын

I note that this logic is never applied to murder mysteries.

@Serai3

2 жыл бұрын

I've never told anyone I know how impressed I was with Kevin Bacon's film _The Woodman,_ and how I could see what his character was going through. Why? Because he plays a convicted pedophile. The story is told from his point of view, and it's about what happens after he's released on parole. It's a brilliant film with a great plot and great acting, but of course it disappeared after its theatrical run, and nobody EVER talks about it. But it's so worth watching if you want to understand something about how these guys' minds work. (The point of the story is that he ends up redeeming himself in a surprising way.)

@zoe_astra

2 жыл бұрын

@@maristiller4033 omg same! The reputation that Lolita has is the complete opposite of what the book is actually about

@maristiller4033

2 жыл бұрын

@@zoe_astra yeah it's why I hate all the adaptations. Complete opposite of what Nabokov was going for....

I did not come expecting to hear that sweet mother-son conversation at the end, but I am here for it. When you can talk to your mom about movies like that, you know you share a good relationship. Warms my heart.

It occurs to me that members of the oppressed class (in this case, women) may see Milly as the strong, independent, willful woman struggling against her oppression within the confines of an existing social order she can't escape but *can * change, even if just a little in her own personal sphere. Their focus is on the actions of the women. Those who are not members of that oppressed class, even if they are feminists, are more likely to watch the movie with a focus on the actions of the men, and rightly conclude that those actions are terrifyingly horrible.

@theladyfausta

2 жыл бұрын

This! I completely understand how horrifying the "reality" of this movie is, but when I was younger my favorite part was always Milly kicking the men into shape and all the girls throwing them out when they messed up. I loved that she existed in a world where she could do something like that and "get away with it." (Context: complicated personal history that involved a lot of emotional suppression.) To me, as a woman, it was great to imagine that I could be direct and take such big actions if the men in my life messed up. And it wouldn't mean I break or destroy my relationships or that they would take revenge, just that they would take time to reflect and earnestly work at making up for their wrongs towards me. THAT was the fantasy: men who didn't suppress you emotionally and accepted the consequences of their actions. (Adam? Different story. He ran off during a time his family would need him and threw a hissy fit so I didn't much have sympathy for him.)

@VonFels

2 жыл бұрын

It’s funny you mentioned class because I was thinking Swept Away was the 1974 movie Swept Away, not the Kurt and Goldie movie , where the oppressor is the rich boat owner who treats the hired help like trash until they get swept away to a desert island where the help quickly turns the tables and makes his former employer his subservient lesser until she falls for him after much abuse.

@icantthinkofagoodname1838

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. When I was a kid I loved this movie because of Milly. I wanted her ability to grasp power in a space that doesn't offer you any.

@theMoporter

2 жыл бұрын

Your first point, I agree with. The idea oppressors who benefitted from the misogynist worldview of the movie, or are more likely to be privileged, if they object to the premise of the movie is absolutely ridiculous. I don't see how you could possibly think men are more likely to dislike the misogyny in the movie than women are.

@pufthemajicdragon

2 жыл бұрын

@@theMoporter Way to #StrawMan everything I said, wow. That is *NOT* *anything* I wrote down and I have no clue what mess of jumbled thoughts gave you that idea. What I *did* say was that women are more likely to identify with the lead female protagonist and her indomitable fight against her oppression, and to like the movie because of her. Those who are not members of the oppressed class won't have that perspective; they see *only* the oppression. And if *all* you see is the oppression, you're not going to enjoy the movie at all. *Of course* women are going to notice the oppression and object to it. But it's an oppression they live with every day. The novelty in the movie is Milly's resistance. That's the wish-fulfillment fantasy that afab women in the audience enjoy that amab men in the audience aren't going to appreciate until it's pointed out to them. You're quick to misunderstand, quick to take offense, quick to attack, and slow to temperance. I don't think the internet is a good fit for your personality. You might try finding other hobbies.

I’ve never seen Seven Brides for Seven Brothers but I do think there’s an aesthetic to these kind of movies. Even if they’re patriarchal and sorta problematic, they’re fun and campy and expresses this romanticism in femininity. Modern cinema has been lacking in it in our attempt to be more progressive (which just props up masculinity as more “respectable”). Not that I want movies to bring back treating predatory and abusive behaviours as romantic but movies where girls can just dress cute or fall in love or whatever without it having to mean anything.

@stupidass69420

2 жыл бұрын

This!!!

@sarasamaletdin4574

2 жыл бұрын

I just saw Seven Brides by Seven Brothers. The video left out that the girls did actually liked the brothers in the dance, before the other suitors started a fight witch made them unable to visit the girls anymore. They didn’t go get some random girls but ones they already had crushes on. Not that it changes much, but I do think it changes the dynamics a little.

@trashbasket11

2 жыл бұрын

@@sarasamaletdin4574 at least one of the girls is shown hoping the guy will "call on her" the night of the kidnapping and being dissapointed when he doesn't but I think it's important to point out you can kidnap a consensual partner and it doesn't make the kidnapping consensual. Taking the girls "ruins" them that's why when they do want to marry the boys they claim the baby as theirs. The implication is if they had been raped they would still be getting married and that's pretty icky. It's my favorite musical but it's not okay at all in its framing of consent.

@zero_foxpants

2 жыл бұрын

@@sarasamaletdin4574 To be fair, he does point out that he noticed that scene you mentioned on rewatch and he talks about it with his mother in their conversation at the end of the video. 😉

@jaginaiaelectrizs6341

2 жыл бұрын

Here's the thing though... what exactly _IS_ "femininity" or "dressing cute" anyway? For some people, it's something very very specific. For other people, it's a lot broader and more general-like femininity is basically just anything female, and what style of dressing is or isn't "cute" can differ quite a lot from one individual person's own personal taste to another's. The problem is that these very different ways of thinking, also, rarely seem to ever agree....not even just to peaceably & respectfully disagree.

For me, Goldie & Kurt being a well-known couple helps my brain react more "Aw, it's funny cuz they're together in real life," so it's easier to suspend my disbelief & look past the plot's questionable circumstances. But more importantly, THAT FALSETTO CHILD SHIRT?!?! 🤣

@FreyaEinde

2 жыл бұрын

There’s that couple factor but I also think it gets a pass because of how funny the barbs are…Goldie especially just gets some really great ones in. They’re matched tit for tat.

@sarahparkerson7579

2 жыл бұрын

👏👏👏 plz make the shirt 🤣

I loved this movie when I was a little girl for similar reasons. Millie is awesome. She is a fully formed character and is always standing up for herself. The film is a series of her telling off Adam for being entitled and terrible towards others. She also takes over the family. One of the central conflicts is the power struggle between her and Adam over influencing the other brothers. I named my favorite doll after her. The kidnapping went mostly over my head as a child, and I got more disturbed by that aspect of the film when I got older. But I still love Millie. ...also the songs are surprisingly catchy and the dancing is amazing. I have such conflicted feelings toward this movie now I'm older.

I distinctly remember the day I asked my best friend if she had seen the movie Cruel Intentions. And she replied, "What, that degenerate fucked up smut garbage?" and my heart dropped like wow this is how I lose my best friend "Yes..." And thankfully she said "Yeah I fucking love that movie!" And I'm so glad we can still enjoy fucked up movies like that and also conclude that incest in a real world context is fucking awful because we are not defined by our favorite film plots or characters.

@sarasamaletdin4574

2 жыл бұрын

Same with Twilight and everyone spending so much time and venom against teen girls like they are morons who can’t know that real relationships don’t function like interactions with vampires.

@Gloomdrake

2 жыл бұрын

@@sarasamaletdin4574 problematic elements of twilight aside for a second, the movie is a great example of how society has a special kind of of vitriol for media that's made for teenage girls

@xBINARYGODx

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gloomdrake yep, while much as been said about Transformers and Michael Bay, that mostly came from certain people and was much quieter than the hate that Twilight got and everyone suddenly thinking girls would go out with predators more than however much they do or don't already. Yet Transforms contains WAY worse things.

@ryanedwards7487

2 жыл бұрын

What makes me laugh is I know someone who hates "Cruel Intentions" but loves "Dangerous Liaisons"--they are the same movie. Seriously...the only difference is one is a period piece (based on the classic novel "Les Liaisons Dangereux") starring Glenn Close and John Malkovich...and the other is the "teen drama" version. Other than that, it's basically copy-paste then find-replace in film format. Also, it's not a bad movie. It's got a few VERY poorly done parts and there are casting issues (not on Sarah Michelle Gellar's part--she rocks it going against her type-casting), but the premise of the idle rich and their idle hands irrevocably damaging and destroying others is something that needs to be seen. Because it was, is, and will still be true. The only difference is that it's not played for comedy like in "Trading Places"--both movies show the horrible human cost of those games.

@Altair718

2 жыл бұрын

Lmao Cruel Intentions was my jam as a tween in the 00s.

I wasn't expecting a video on Seven Brides for Seven Brothers alongside Overboard today, but I'm 100% here for it!!

Dude, if you're going to make videos about your personal taste, well, as long as the quality is like this, I'm all for it.

I love your conversation about your partner. Because as someone who was wildly independent, in her 30s, for 10 yrs until I fell ridiculously in love with my partner, love absolutely does not solve things. I know who I am, my partner knows themself, and now we've got to move our lives around eachother. Its complicated as hell. I was happy on my own and doing what I wanted whenever I wanted, but now... damn. Its good seeing other 30 somethings, discussing all the things I feel. Especially the Dont Look Up parts.

@tatehildyard5332

2 жыл бұрын

It’s especially interesting coming upon these conversations because I wound up meeting and dating my current partner as a result of Pandemic isolation. Because of that, our relationship moved at very weird and inconsistent speeds. So far it’s going pretty good and we’re happy, but I’m honestly not sure how removed I feel from my independent, single, self because the last time I was in that state, I was mentally on the verge of falling apart like everyone else June 2020. To be clear, I did not start the relationship as a coping mechanism. It was just being locked in an apartment all day by myself gave me a lot more time to casually browse apps and we didn’t even go on an actual date until a month and a half of messaging each other. Of course we have the things about each other that drive us crazy and we both value our alone time and who we are outside of each other but I do wonder whether or not him or that independent self prior to knowing him would make me happier.

@tatehildyard5332

Жыл бұрын

Welp…about a year or so later, we have decided to split up come July. We care about each other, but there are just things about each other that we can’t really reconcile with and we can’t keep pretending we can give each other what we want anymore. We’ve both known this on our own for a few months but finally admitted it to each other a month ago.

I wanna talk about the cultural context and reactionary politics of movies like these for a moment because it's a point of fascination for me. I think a lot of people look back on movies like Seven Brides like they were from a simpler time when people didn't see anything wrong with this stuff, but they absolutely weren't and that was the point. At the time, the volume was being turned up on the women's movement and a lot of people were insecure and anxious about things changing. So westerns -- movies that had previously been mostly a reaction to rapid progress and alienation -- became more about gender and race and age. They created an imagined version of the past where white men were gods and if only modern men would go back to their masterful ways of old, everyone would be happier in their rightful place. The fantasy here was that women were only unhappy with men in the 60s because men weren't being tough and manly enough and that all it would take was a firm hand to fix that. But in real life, many people were most definitely appalled by some of these backward movies and said so. (One infamously misogynistic John Wayne movie, McClintock, even had one of the movie's strawmen call Wayne a reactionary to mock this.) That leaves some cultural context: there was, for a very long time, a prevalent assumption that every woman FIERCELY wanted to be married and to take care of a strong manly man (whether she'd admit to it or not) far more than she wanted to find true love. For the Brides, their desire to marry the Brothers would've been seen not just as a result of them being attracted right off and falling in love over time, but as an extension of their natural female desire for marriage. (Hence them singing about marriage instead of love.) ((and let's not forget that, at the time, marrying for love hadn't been common for all that long.)) So the truly toxic assumption a lot of people were taking comfort in here, was that you can't force something on a person if it's in their "nature" to want it. And wouldn't everything be simpler if no one had a choice? (That last one is a weird staple of romcoms: couples being forced together by something beyond their control.) The concept of the conflict between romantic leads is just, I think, a reaction to typecasting and cliched endings. Everyone knows the couple(s) will get together in the end, so what do we do till then? Where does the conflict come from?

@deedeedan8681

2 жыл бұрын

Oh....oh wow...

@botanicalitus4194

2 жыл бұрын

great comment

@technopoptart

2 жыл бұрын

thankyou, you said it very well

@kostajovanovic3711

2 жыл бұрын

Chef's kiss for this

@Amy-dl9vx

2 жыл бұрын

7 wives for 7 brothers was released in 1954 though, while a few more women were entering the workforce, my understanding of that this time period is pretty much that it was the height of that conservative nuclear family model. This film was about 10 years before The Feminine Mystique was released (I'm not a fan of Betty Friedman but it's often thought of as a kind of breaking point for the second wave feminism). Getting married as soon as you can and having kids was still the norm at this point. I thought that only really started to change with the pill and many more women entering the workforce in the 60s? I'm not an expert though, it would really be interesting to know what kinds of things might have been happening leading up to the 60s if it's a topic you know more about. Your point about cowboy movies and the role of nostalgia during times of societal change and division is really important though, and it's a really core appeal of conservatism. I haven't thought about it as relating to film before, that's a really interesting thing to think about and it makes a lot of sense.

I just realised that the song "Sobbin Women" is a word play on "Sabine Women," the story the movie's supposedly based on.

@susie9893

2 жыл бұрын

What's really funny is that my mum openly explained the reference to us back when we watched it as children and still happily watched it and let us watch it!? It wasn't till years later that I found out the Sabine women story and that it was all about rape 🤯

Seven brides is the 1950s romantisizing the 1850s romantisizing the Good Ol' Days. No wonder it's fucked up all the way. But the barn dance scene is still absolute fire

My conservative grandparents were fine with me watching “the classics,” but not evil stuff like Pokémon. Going back, and realizing that, oh, yeah, Holiday Inn has classic songs alongside a musical number in black face, or The Ten Commandments has a woman sell herself into sexual slavery to save the man she loves from being executed, etc, etc, is always fun.

@IkeOkerekeNews

2 жыл бұрын

Did you grandparents ever change in the end?

@Giaphaige

2 жыл бұрын

Same here, no Pokémon but The Ten Commandments terrified me as a kid

@SafetySpooon

2 жыл бұрын

That part in the 10 Commandments was not *approving* of that; it was highlighting just HOW evil Dathan was, & how much "Lilia" loved Joshua.

@susie9893

2 жыл бұрын

I hear ya. My folks had the same ridiculous ideas - anything B&W was approved. Looking back, some of the total RUBBISH I watched...

@goldilox369

2 жыл бұрын

OMG. I love Holiday Inn so much more than White Christmas. But the "Abraham" song was terrible simplistic history, and terribly racist even for the time. Like black people were supposed to praise him as a Messiah figure. And then to do it in blackface, (which obviously was a plot point to hide the girl from Ted), the waitresses & waiters etc dressed up in pikaninny clothes and hair. Jesus wept 😭. I watch it every Christmas because I love it. But I have to tell my kids how utterly tasteless & wrong that scene is and why.

I watched Seven Brides when I was a child, as someone who loved musicals. As an adult, it’s still a very regular comfort movie for me. My thing is: sexism permeates basically every aspect of media. If I refused to enjoy things because of sexist messaging or undertones, I would be permanently miserable. For me, and many other women, it’s sort of a case by case basis on what we find acceptable or unacceptable. For me, this movie is an “acceptable”, or at least lighthearted amount of sexism, as opposed to something like Shallow Hal. The songs are fun, the dancing is great, and half the brothers are super hot. And I’m okay with that position, because I have enough media literacy to interact with it from a healthy distance. (Also I just pretend that Gideon beat the shit out of Adam and that he never came back. It’s fuck Adam every day in this household.)

@countryboy3589

2 жыл бұрын

My nightmare blunt rotation is just Adam pontipee

@rachelhansen2417

7 ай бұрын

Adam is the literal worst!

As an aromantic I relate very much to your previous comfort with solitude. But I do still enjoy these kinds of films, morality aside.

"This is so wholesome for being such a fucked-up movie" my hubby's reaction to seeing Overboard for the 1st time last year

What a wonderful conclusion to the video: mother and son discussing a movie. On the subject of Seven Brides, I'm more on your mom's side, at least partly due to an affection for musicals that dates back to my earliest childhood. I imprinted on Milly. I loved the songs. Yet even so, I always found myself feeling ill at ease during the scene in which the brothers are taking the kidnapped women back to their home, and they use the women's CRIES FOR HELP to cause an avalanche to stop the pursuit, weaponizing their distress against them. Even though I love the film as a whole, that moment has always felt wrong to me. One character who deserves a mention, I think, is Adam's youngest brother Gideon, played by Russ Tamblyn. In a scene not far from the end of the film, he confronts Adam about the latter's treatment of Milly. "You've lived with Milly as man and wife and you don't know nothing about her! She's proud and spunky. She'd never bring herself to ask you back." Gideon, at least, has learned something of value. Adam's a bit later to the party.

My first dance instructor was one of the Brides, and holy hell did she never ever let anyone forget it. It was this big deal where we were, and it was actually really difficult to get into her classes. Which were like friggin boot camp...and the outfits we performed in. Good gracious. Lots of older men came alone to watch our performances, if you catch my meaning. As with many gays, I was a hard-core musical theatre fiend (still am) and ended up going to a fairly prestigious theatre school and worked as a costumer for many years. I have a deep and abiding love for musicals and movies and all forms of theatre. But looking back on all of the media I ingested as a youngin can kinda make my skin crawl now. (It also explains a LOT about the horrible relationship choices I made in my 20s.) I was largely raised by my grandparents, so my knowledge of and exposure to pre-1970s film is much greater than almost anyone else I know. It serves as a stark reminder that as awful as much of our media still remains, we have made SOME progress. Ish. I have a daughter now, she is nine going on twenty-nine. She is FAR too mature for my own good; there are some films which were very formative to me that I don't want to share with her. Which is sad in a way, even though they can spark amazing discussions I miss the purity of just enjoying some of them the way I did at her age. She is whip smart, and often points crap out I hadn't noticed or mentioned (not ten minutes ago she told me she was annoyed that the last three shows she watched cast POC as the antagonists). I have hope for her future. But I do miss watching these old movies with the wide, shining eyes I had at her age. Ann Miller in Kiss Me Kate is entirely exempt--dont even bother saying a single word, I will not hear it. Ann can and will forever be my problematic fav. Watch her face. She knew what she was singing, 1953 or no. "I'm a girl who would marry and would take with no qualms..." 🍆

@lukanxo5353

2 жыл бұрын

Straight cringe. I feel sorry for her

@auldthymer

2 жыл бұрын

@@lukanxo5353 What I take issue with is Ann throwing that same magenta scarf into the camera lens 3 times. Even seeing it in 3D doesn't justify that scarf!

@Kimmaline

2 жыл бұрын

@@auldthymer I just guffawed so loudly my cat jumped in the air. 😆 Good one. Brava.

@theMoporter

2 жыл бұрын

On the other hand, she never has to experience the bitterness or regret of coming back to those older movies and seeing how repugnant they are under the surface. Having no nostalgia for them can make it easier to appreciate.

I love the talk you had with your mom at the end, truly the epitome of someone who will approach the discussion with you in good faith

Thank you for giving this a fair take. I think, particularly when you and your mom talked about coming from a family with mostly girls vs. mostly boys, something that tends to get missed in the discussion on SBFSB is the male vs. the female gaze. I would argue part of the reason SBFSB is so popular is it caters to the female gaze (and focuses on an empowered female). Lonely Pole Cat and the barn dance are the best examples I have of this - those scenes seem particularly crafted to appeal to the female audience and pretty blatantly objectifies the men in a way that’s meant for the female gaze, not the male gaze. I think men initially find this story so creepy because they don’t pick up on these underlying subversions and commentary as quickly. I’m also glad y’all touched on the fact that the women clearly liked the men before they were kidnapped. I would even elaborate to say that they clearly had a preference, but the society around them was pressuring them to marry the men in town. Even Millie got a lot of flack for marrying Adam and people kept trying to convince her to leave. While the kidnapping isn’t great, it’s also oddly the vehicle that allows the women to be able to make their own choice in who they wanted to marry instead of having to conform to the societal expectations around them. So while the superficial plot devices may come across extremely misogynistic, it’s actually an incredibly empowering story with a lot of agency in its female characters. Even the ways Millie handles finding out she’s basically been married to be a housemaid are fantastic. She could easily have resigned herself to just doing the cooking and cleaning and adapting to how they do things - but instead she immediately sets boundaries and expectations on how she expects to be treated and how the household will operate, completely taking charge of the situation she’s been put in. So I think there’s a difference between something being set in a misogynistic time period or setting, and the film itself being misogynistic. To say women can’t be empowered because they wouldn’t act the way women would act *now* in a society that looked completely different discounts the ways women empowered themselves at the time and almost delegitimizes it, further disenfranchising them retroactively, IMO.

Carousel is my mother's favourite musical and we both watched it again in recent years and were fairly horrified by the attitude towards domestic abuse. Even though carousel has literal fantasy elements there is a gritty realism to it that seven brides lacks - for me seven brides is pure escapism it's a fantasy version of the past where there are no bad endings and no bad guys - the kidnappers only kidnapped because they are silly and believe this is the way to the women's hearts and not for nefarious reasons. No harm comes to them and I agree with other commenters that the women and especially Millie have a strange sort of autonomy and set the rules up in the mountains - like Millie was going to refuse to let Adam into their bedroom on their wedding night, definitely something that women of that time (and I'm sure some still today) wouldn't be given the option of doing. I think that if seven brides was any less campy and fun and ridiculous that it would be full on creep but it's not supposed to be taken seriously at all imo.

You're absolutely right about the moralising of films people like - it's the inevitable outcome of treating politics like a fandom - people treat fandoms like politics

This was such a great video, I definitely think media criticism has a tendency to criticize people who enjoy a piece of media rather than (or in addition to) the media itself. I had the same reaction with Seven Brides for Seven Brothers- I thought, what an awful, misogynistic piece of media. And by extension, assumed everyone who enjoyed it partially agreed with the idea that women belong in the household, cleaning up after juvenile men. But I really enjoyed hearing your mother's perspective and I think you've really made me question how many of my opinions on movies/tv shows are also a judgement on people who I've never even interacted with.

Haven't finished the video yet, but thanks for doing this. I've tried to figure out what Overboard does right more than once, and I think you explain it better than I could. Great video! "They might as well have paired off based on favorite colors." I remember Paw's review of Seven Brides, where he pointed out the crime of pairing Julie Newmar, one of the best dancers and singers in the entire cast, with some former baseball player who could NEITHER SING NOR DANCE. Compatibility isn't even an afterthought indeed.

seven brides is fuuuucked up, but i watched it probably a hundred times as a very small child, so i have a strong bond with it. (this seems to be the case for many people.) i called it "dancin' boys" cos the title was just too long for a 3-4 year old. i still love it to this day, but i'd never recommend it to anyone without a serious caveat. i'm looking forward to what you have to say about it.

@lford1130

2 жыл бұрын

Girl me to. Literately the exact same experience, and the exact same relationship with the movie.

I'm just happy to see interesting Seven Brides for Seven Brothers analysis in 2022! Literally my favorite movie as a seven year old. It was like watching a live-action version of the kind of insanity I would play out with my barbie dolls.

I like seven brides and I think its messed up. I actually really like Milly better than any other character in that movie. She doesn't let the brothers or her husband get away with anything. Ever since I was a child though I always thought the women (girls?) falling in love with the boys was weird however I like how they turned the tables on them and forced the brothers to marry them. A poetic twist I guess. I always focused on the feminine power in the movie.

@jlbeeen

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly, when looking at when the girls say the baby is theirs, it's almost like they're proposing to the men, which I thought was a really fun twist. Even at the start where Milly is dealing with the guys, I thought it was an empowering moment of her showing that she wasn't going to put up with whatever just for her husband, she demanded she be respected, which was really powerful to my mom and myself after having to deal with my dad who wouldn't respect the opinions of women (or really anyone for that matter) for a long time.

I adore Overboard. Goldie Hawn's comedic timing is absolutely impeccable.

I didn't read McKay's tweet as "If you don't like my movie you don't care about climate change" but the reverse, "If you don't care about the climate change you won't like my movie" hence the following tweet to the likes of "robots would find romances weird"

@trashbasket11

2 жыл бұрын

The problem is that a lot of people that care about climate change also didn't care for his movie and he insinuated that wasn't a reality.

@kjarakravik4837

2 жыл бұрын

Also, a lot of aromantic people do enjoy romances so robots probably would too? I think it's kind off like how people enjoy movies about serial killers even though they themselves aren't serial killers. They just use their imaginations

omg I'm commenting before I even watch the video. I'm so glad you're covering Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I love that movie even if the actual plot is creepy af. There's just something about the music and choreography that's so amazing. Can't wait to listen to your take on it.

@kacarter89

2 жыл бұрын

okay I've made it 4 minutes in, and this is also literally my mom's favorite movie too!

One could argue Dean did compensate her for her labor since he was only going to “keep her” long enough to pay back the work he did. Her work to economically equal his. Admittedly one of my favorite movies growing up

@susie9893

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I was thinking this as he was talking too. I don't think he felt that housework shouldn't be compensated for. Even tho he gets her to work that role because he cons her into thinking she's his wife HE thinks of her as a MAID who is paying off the debt she owes him. He even calculates it out roughly when he tells his friend how long he intends to keep her. If he'd included sex in his plan that would've been creepy! As this guy says, when love and sex got thrown into the mix that's when it got TRULY messy and heartbreak became inevitable

I was singing right along with the clips of 7 brides for 7 brothers. Good memories

Honestly, man, you've got a unique enough perspective in all your video essays and make such cogent, well researched and argued interpretations of any given piece of media you come across, I look forward to all your videos! I think it's great you're just examining your own tastes, you don't need to examine the most topical or highly talked about movies- a million people are already doing that, I guarantee you nobody else is going to be discussing gender and class division through comparing Seven Brides for Seven Brothers to Overboard, that's an interesting video!

When I hear someone say they love a, well, problematic property, I always follow up with why before I judge. If someone loves Fight Club because they themselves feel disillusioned with capitalism or love the filmmaking, fine. If they love Fight Club because Tyler Durden is the coolest guy ever and they want to join Project Mayhem, that’s a yikes from me.

@susie9893

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, you brought in Fight Club? The notoriously complex movie that you could watch on SO MANY levels and analyse 3 ways to sundown and still barely scratch the surface?

This is EXACTLY how I wanted to spend Valentine's Day: a Cold Crash critical analysis of two movies I've never seen in my life. Love the segment about how we treat media preferences as a window into a person's morals, and how sometimes simple validation is reason enough to enjoy a film's politics.

I first watched Seven Brides in elementary school when our music teacher taught a unit on the history of musicals. It was a point of transition from the era when the plot would stop so each character could have a solo to state their feelings, or a dance number to show off, and the more modern format where the songs and dances could help push the plot forward as well. Learning to identify the difference between a song there for character expression, plot progression, or sheer spectacle like the barn dance sequence was probably my first introduction to film analysis now that I think about it. But because the lesson prioritized history and structure, I didn’t stop to think about how creepy the plot is on paper until I was a teenager. And even then, I wrote it off as “of another time” and didn’t think about it much further. Maybe I’ll give it a rewatch and see how I feel now.

SBFSB is one of my favorite movies simply because it feels like a fever dream whenever I recount the plot to someone. (And also the barn raising scene.) Thanks for this, Sarge!

My mother loved that movie Overboard. And to be honest with you it isn't a bad movie. It's just not the kinds of movies I usually watch.

I want 7 Samurai For The Magnificent Seven, but producers keep throwing my script overboard their yachts.

Oh, man. As an acespec woman raised by evangelicals, I have SO MANY feelings about romcoms in general and forced romance tropes in particular. I'm demisexual, so literally everyone I've ever been attracted to has been a longtime friend first--and it's never been reciprocated. (The list is short, and the odds were never very good on numbers that small.) More importantly, I've never been attracted to anyone who expressed attraction to me. That means the idea of being trapped in an inescapable situation where I'm expected to be in love with my captor by the end of the story is my actual nightmare--as in, I have had nightmares like this, and because my sleeping brain is unsubtle, I'm usually also dying in them and no one else cares as long as I get married. It's gotten to the point that I can't watch romcoms anymore because the expectation that the leads will kiss by the end makes me anxious and miserable. It doesn't help that there's often no chemistry between the main characters, which makes the plot seem even more forced. SBFSB horrifies me so much in concept that I can't watch it. I only clicked on this video after telling myself that your analysis would be worth the stress. I'm still sorting out how I feel about this video. But it did give me an idea: I think I'd be interested in hearing whether you think there are movies that do a good job of UNforced romance. Not just characters defying societal expectations--any Romeo and Juliet retelling does that--but defying the audience's expectations too. Maybe a May-December romance where the December is a woman or something. 🙄 Thank you for making this. It's given me a lot to think about. Hope your Valentine's with your partner is special.

@EnvyOmicron

2 жыл бұрын

If you want to see a May-December romance movie where the December is a woman, I thought Ali: Fear Eats The Soul was a pretty good one. It deals with the romantic leads not only defying societal expectations in terms of age, but also of race and class, because it's about an older white lady dating a poor middle-aged Arab immigrant in post-WWII West Germany. Fair warning though, it *does* get pretty heavy, for reasons you can probably guess based on the premise.

@sz2333

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe Sleeping with other people with Jason sudeikis and Alison Brie? It is kind of silly though but they are friends first and foremost

@nightfall3605

2 жыл бұрын

He has one in his list: Harry and Maude.

@theoffkeydiva

2 жыл бұрын

Highly recommend both Big Eden and Cloudburst!

@legoqueen2445

2 жыл бұрын

@@nightfall3605 I've never watched that movie and I don't know what demisexual means but the first thing that came to mind was 'They should watch Harry and Maude!'

The discussion with your mom was so healthy and wholesome that it made my heart melt.

Your stance towards love - and being a-ok alone - aligns fully with my own. And the way you put it was a bit of an eye-opener to me, in that I've not yet met anyone whom I loved enough to deal with the complications love comes with. So that was interesting! You know, along with, how cool and interesting this comparison is. xD I friggin' love Overboard.

I’d speak to you about any topic, any day, anytime. I think you’re one of the most articulate people creating content on the internet today.

Love that you called your mom to get her take, she made many points I would've never considered. Another great video!

I legitimately fought with a friend in high school because I found this film so offensive and it was one of their favorites, and you have given me a fascinating new perspective; thank you!

The collective "MINE!" has always been one of my favorite moments in the film. This is a setting where women have limited rights, and limited agency outside the home, but they manipulate that regressive system to get what they want.

I like seven brides for seven brothers because it is sort of revolutionary in its choreography. Basically the story makes me so uncomfortable that I laugh at loud but I watch for fancy dancing 🤷‍♀️

Wow. This is definitely the future of online discourse! Thanks for this and just... wow. I'm creating a capstone concert for my theatre major right now that revolves around reclaiming Golden Age musical theatre that I grew up on, with feminist and queer twists. A lot of the shows and movies from that period permanently defined my sense of self-worth as less than the men around me, and as a queer, often masculine woman, I never felt that those stories had a place for me. My dad is a musical theatre performer and he & all of his peers maintain that really old school, objectifying misogyny. It means a lot to see men analyze these stories and examine their own biases in relation to them, because unfortunately that's one of the only ways to make space for others down the line. (Also, this was just a really entertaining one, so thanks for that lol.)

I am 26 and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers in one of my favorite movies of all time. Mostly for the same reasons your mom has, but also because of the amazing dancing. All the brothers except from Adam were hired from a ballet troupe, and it shows. It's beautiful.

One of the things I took away from Seven Brides was Adam Pontipee's journey from a kind of callous carelessness to a greater empathy. At the beginning of the film, he has only the smallest glimmer of guilt about quickly marrying Milly and pressing her to drudge for his entire family. He hasn't learned much when he encourages his brothers to go kidnap themselves some brides, and he's bullheaded enough to take off and live in a cabin on his own when Milly demands that all the boys stay in the barn. It takes news of his own daughter's birth to start changing his mind, and it doesn't happen right away. He needs some more time on his own to think about what it would be like if someone were to come along and steal his own baby away from her family. By the end of the movie he still has a long way to go, but he's developed a greater understanding for the damage he's done and what he needs to do to make things right, or at least better.

I will fully admit to finding Seven Brides a fun musical, even with all that it is deeply problematic about it. But, if you want to talk about crazy musicals, have you seen Paint your Wagon?

@trashbasket11

2 жыл бұрын

I had someone accuse me of making paint your wagon up when I explained the cast and plot to them because it sounds so nuts

@pLanetstarBerry

2 жыл бұрын

I only ever seen Paint Your Wagon in bits and pieces. I'll have to see it in one sitting, someday it was one of my dad's favorite musicals. Literally the first scene I remember watching was the one where the two friends decide its fine if they both marry the love interest arguing something the lines of "if a man can have two wives there shouldn't be anything saying a woman can't have two husbands." NGL, resolving a love triangle like that had never crossed my mind before seeing that movie, lol.

@nightfall3605

2 жыл бұрын

“That one was my favorite!” Or “Preacher, welcome to Hell.” 🤝

@LaundryFaerie

2 жыл бұрын

Always entertaining to watch Lee Marvin burp out "Wand'rin' Star," no lie

@canamus1768

2 жыл бұрын

paint your wagon is godawful just from a filmmaking standpoint. director joshua logan may have been a fine stage director, but he never made a good film. it's always surprising to see what prestige projects were entrusted to him, but the list of his botched efforts is epic: south paciific, camelot, bus stop, picnic, etc.

I feel I can emphasize with your mom's experience rewatching Clint Eastwood and John Wayne movies only to realize that they are far more problematic than remembered. I had a very similar experience with 80s John Hughes movies. I was one of the people who thought Duckie should have gotten the girl at the end of the film. Now I can't watch it without seeing him as a protypical "nice guy" who assumes he should get the girl because he called dibs; at least he redeems himself at the end (....and gets rewarded with the first Buffy for his selflessness....). And that is nothing to say about Sixteen Candles with its Long Duck Dong's and freshman panty viewing parties. Nostalgia sucks sometimes.

@tatehildyard5332

2 жыл бұрын

Fun fact; Molly Ringwald actually believes Ducky was gay since the character was based on her best friend at the time who was gay.

@GoeTeeks

2 жыл бұрын

@@tatehildyard5332 I only ever caught the tail end of that movie once and thought Ducky was gay.

@auldthymer

2 жыл бұрын

@@tatehildyard5332 I had hoped he was gay.

Last thing I expected to see today was a video about Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

As a child, of a parent and grandparent who both loved musicals, I enjoyed 7 Brides for the vivid colours and the songs. When I watched it again as an adult I was shocked by the story 🤣 It is a horrible premise. It always fascinates me how our perception of things changes, as our experiences broaden and we age. Still love Overboard though. The chemistry between the leads is no joke. I also enjoy how the children gain confidence through "Annie" having their backs. She disciplines them when they need it, finds ways to engage them at their own level for learning and she is 100% there for them when needed. Oh and her apology to the butler is great. Thanks for this video, it was entertaining and straight out of left field 🥰

Watching an analysis of two films that I have never seen before making me really want to watch them now. Typical Sunday night, supposed to work on course work, now hunting down these films online.

@auldthymer

2 жыл бұрын

You are in for a treat!

I empathize with your mom. I have gen X siblings and a millenial partner. As a latchkey kid I watched a lot of 80's and 90's movies on cable. When I started showing my husband and his friends my favorite movies from childhood they were aghast at misogyny I never registered, even as a liberal sociology major. For example, why DID Jamie Lee Curtis go for Dan Aykroyd in Trading Places? And it WAS very inappropriate that the security guard in Mannequin 2: On the Move paid that woman's insurance. What I choose to take from the experience is this: nostalgic movies are beloved but often problematic and my kids are going to have excellent feminist role models.

while i don't disagree with any of the pro-brides arguments in the video, i do think they can kind of tread into thermian argument territory? like, it is definitely one reading to say that the kidnapping is framed is bad and the women make the choice to marry, and that can absolutely be meaningful to someone. but also you have to acknowledge that this is a movie written by people who decided the women should choose to marry, and that is the happy ending. the movie may wish only happiness on everyone in it, but they can still only gain that happiness in a certain sort of heteropatriarchal way. like, that's still not making any ~moral judgements~ on it, just pointing out that there's more to analyze. in fact, i'd argue that it further drives home your point that analysis shouldn't just be about proving something is good or bad--i can understand your points about why brides might appeal to someone and still be super uncomfortable about its messaging.

Great video! I will admit, I'm with your mom. Looking at it now, I know the show is super problematic, but Millie is a strong woman who still manages to take charge of the situation she's in. It's not like she demurely shuffles off to do what she's told; she constantly rebukes Adam and the boys. And I found that really empowering as a child. Plus, the songs and dancing are just amazing

I like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers for the music, put music in most anything and I'll like it.

Must this blessing shield you from the wrath of the Holy Ones & Zeros.

The way you describe love/not being fine with being single after you've fallen in love (around 26:20) actually made me tear up. I know it wasn't the point of the movie, but I thought that was really poignant.

I had something said to me once, I don't remember about what movie, "if that movie is one of your favourites, that says x about you" My reaction was "it's entertainment? The movie is interesting and well made? It's not teaching me how to live, it's taking me into other worlds and other lives? Huh?!" It's the reaction I have to people saying they hate Ross Geller from Friends or Love Actually. Liking the movie or characters isn't condoning their behaviour or flaws. Bad behaviour and flaws give depths to characters. It's entertaining.

Stellar vid as always, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers was one of my high school English teachers favourite movies, and I remember her showing it to us and having the same gut reaction you did, so it was great to see an in depth commentary. Also I was interested that for the Age of Adaline you pegged Harrison Ford's character and Adaline as the central love interests - I definitely agree, they had the most time and development, but I found that movie frustrating because instead of committing to that interesting plotline and characters they pushed Harrison Ford's son as the love interest that she ended up with, with whom she had no chemistry and no development.

My mom also really loves 7Bf7B. It is too small of a sample size to make a generalization, but it makes sense to me that it is a movie moms would love. While it includes the presumption that women's labor won't be compensated, it does put a lot of emphasis on how domestic labor is real labor. How much work goes into making the homestead into a home. And in trashing the meal that the men tear into like slobs, and insisting on table manners, Millie demands that her labor is appreciated. Furthermore, I think that "it was a different time" shouldn't be used to *excuse* harmful viewpoints, but I do think that it is useful to look at in terms of what people's lives were like, both when the movie was made and when the musical was set. For the women in these times, for the most part, marriage was an economic and social necessity, and love is nice if you can get it. And if you are in a frontier town, you don't have a ton of options. While 7Bf7B does end with a wedding for the younger couples, the main characters, Millie and Adam, get married at the beginning. There is initial attraction, sure, but like a lot of couples at the time, Millie and Adam learn to love each other AFTER they get married. And a lot of the movie is about the tensions in that relationship and making that marriage work, and about Adam learning to properly respect Millie. Also, man, the dancing is just so good.

Great video! I knew I grew up with 7 Brides for 7 Brothers and loved it. Now as an adult I can see that is definitely weird, but still like it regardless. I especially love your conversation about media criticism and how it should be talked about. Every year I get more and more tired of how we talk about media and politicize and simplify it to this and that. This was just a refreshing take so great job.

this was such a cool video!!! I love seeing how your opinion of a work can change when you apply different lenses or perspectives on it and I loved that you got to hear from your mom about her take on it! Really cool, I hope you do more of these kinds of introspective media analysis essays

Haven't finished or even started watching yet but was so excited when I saw a new video essay!! Thanks!!!

I think you forgive Overboard because you believe it, but not as much of the seven brides and grooms.

@auldthymer

2 жыл бұрын

I'm always amused at the conformity and anonymity -- we can't just have 5 couples

I missed these videos so much. Thank you 😭😭😭

7 Brides is also one of my mom's favorite movies. She also watches a ton of those terrible Hallmark movies, and when I asked her why she said it was because they all had happy endings. I think some people (and maybe even women from a certain time frame) just like an easy story to settle into. Nothing you have to think about too hard with no one getting too hurt, and the ending wrapping up in a nice bow. As someone who loves media analysis, but can get TOO caught up in it emotionally, I like that there are movies like 7 Brides that exist.

@susie9893

2 жыл бұрын

Lol! I hate 7 Brides but I do watch Hallmark movies. SOME Hallmark movies. (I have a long list of criteria but the bar is pretty low imo - 1st rule: it can't annoy me). But I DO watch cos they require virtually no concentration at all (and free cos I only watch 1s on KZread). This is my entertainment when I'm cooking and cleaning. I used to try watching documentaries while I did this but found it too frustrating cos I'd miss bits then have to stop, wash my hands then go back to what I missed. No need to do this with a hallmark movie - doesn't matter if you miss bits cos plot is so darn predictable. I guess the same could apply to mindless musicals but for me, if I like the musical I'll stop what I'm doing to sing and dance which rather defeats the purpose

I love how you incorporated your mom into this!

I love this movie. I appreciate the choreography and the song composition. I don't overthink it. Life's too short for that.

Wow this is one of your best videos yet. And the part with your mom! I love it. That was such a lovely talk between you two. Really warmed my heart.

Seven Brides is terrifying but I grew up with it and absolutely adore it, though I will apologise for it. It was completely love at first sight with the 6 brothers and their brides at the barn dance, which is lazy fairytale/Gilbert and Sullivan (especially the chorus) writing but that is so common for so many movies, especially musicals of a certain era. I totally get it if people see 7B these days and hate it but I can't stop loving it. Plus, the songs, dance sequences and Howard Keel are just so wonderful!

Anecdotally, I’ve never heard of a man say that waitress or Age of Adelaide is their favourite - so nice to hear!

I watched overboard as a kid but could never remember the name or who was in it, only the unsettling, half-forgotten memory of a woman falling off a boat and then being told she's a wife and a mother and not knowing any better. It has freaked me out for years, the same way people talk about watching watership down as a kid.

I love all of your videos and I will watch probably any format you dream up! Please just keep making insightful, delightfully thought out and thoroughly enjoyable content!

I've watched this movie several times since I was a child. Always loved it. Is it problematic? Yes. I still love it.

I watched Seven Brides for Seven Brothers as a kid and my main thought was how grateful I was to live in the age that I do. I assumed that part of the reason the women decide to marry the men in the end is because marriage is a forgone conclusion for them. They live in an age and a place when women needed to marry to secure their future. Marriage wasn't necessarily a romantic thing, but a necessity. So basically those women have two choices for marriage prospects, their suitor in town and the mountain brothers. It's such a limited choice. There's also the fact that in choosing the brothers they are saving their lives, which has to be exciting. In fact, at that moment they probably have more power than most women of that era did. Also by making the choice they did they get to stay with Millie, whom they've grown attached to, and to stay with each other. The film always made me uncomfortable though. I often watched the first half of it and then shut it off.

@susie9893

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, so grateful to live in an era where marriage ISN'T considered to be a career for women (let alone the ONLY career). Not to say there's anything wrong with you if that's the career you want (altho I do think you need to seriously consider whether that's what you REALLY want and isn't some weird glamorised indoctrination)

Another intelligent and thoughtful video essay. It feels like your trying to figure it out along with us. Thank you for your work.

1. Your mother is adorable! I'm so happy you shared your discussion! 2. I was so happy to see you upload! I was just thing it had been a while since I had seen your work! You are appreciated! (Clicked the bell for notifications so I won't be 8 days late) Thank you for all you do! I was a preteen when Overboard was current. It was a sleepover staple... I appreciate looking at the tropes & how it is similar/different to other movies based on the times they came out.

always happy to see a new video from you keep up the good work :)

Excuuuuuuuse me she didn’t settle into her “role” . She took charge. Men without women are uncivilized and typically unfit to be around women and children. She changed them on her own terms AND refused to be a house maid with bedroom privileges. Your perspective on this movie is degrading to the strength of the character they give Millie.

As ever, you have such an incisive insight into film analysis and S O C I E T Y on the whole. Absolutely brilliant! (As ever.)

More talking with your mom about movies!!! The two of you together was delightful!

After a certain point, I stopped maladapting to the online buzz surrounding the romanticizing of abuse message in a lot of YA media. I was over-invested back then, and set myself up for expressing my experience of alienation in a way that was doomed to cause more isolation simply by over focusing on individual pieces. The more I listened to media reviews that took a more sociologically literate perspective on media trends, the more I was at peace with the fact that a genre that used to have a grudge with. It turned out that YA romance was simply a reflection of culture mores that I had been struggling against for most of my adolescence rather than a cause of that incredibly personal battle. And shortly after that, I just treated gross implications as flaws that undermine my suspension of disbelief like a terrible soundtrack choice or wooden acting rather than a cultural sickness attempting to make people worse through cult tactics or whatever. Gross messaging from any one piece of media is normally too subtle an influence to frame as some sort of personal failing to not actively reject the unreality of the art. The worst messages only manage to survive in an audience when it’s constantly reinforced and alternative perspectives are prevented from reaching them. Sure the messages hamper our fun and can even stir up terrible experiences within us, but that’s generally a systemic cause of real trouble, not a individual artbeast in need of a single silver bullet.

Not to be terminally online here but I feel like a lot of Fandoms struggle with this exact concept, and it seems to me like a lot of it comes from shipping discourse. Especially since how it's experienced online comes more from teenagers that are just exploring a lot of things with their favourite characters, as opposed to the early star trek analog days. This gets always mixed with the upbringing of the teenagers, and we as a society (but in the USA especially) don't do a good job on teaching kids how to think for themselves and how to critically engage with media. So these Teens that maybe also had the type of parent that'd shelter then interacts in fandom and discovers someone likes a fictional relationship that's either inherently abusive or just very messy, the only logical conclusion for them is that the person enjoying these dynamics must either endorse them and/or wants to have relationships like that. And so this also gets into different elements of Fandom. So then everyone that likes Story Arcs, Characters, and other Media that is deemed morally wrong to like gets hate for it. So if those Teens then never get the skills to interact with media like you're actually supposed to, they become then Adults that will teach the same mistakes to their children and/or they'll just stay in fandom spaces and will try to preach their gospel to the newer and younger fans

I think it’s absolutely adorable that you made a video comparing these two just so you can feel better about liking one of them ♥️♥️ As a fan of both (they each fall into my top ten of rom coms) I enjoyed this very much 😊

Ah, now this will be a nice video to round out my evening with! I already know it will be superb work, even before I see it! Well done you ❤