Don, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ve battled with these issues inside my own life and you’ve added clarity. Much appreciated. Please keep posting.

Thank you for this very thoughtful and clarifying response which clarifies a fundamental disagreement. For me the fall of man, the mythi expressed in Genesis, is a fall into an inevitable and unavoidable duality. For me, the subject /object split cannot be transcended and it is an illusion to think that it can be. This is the illusion that characterizes most mysticism. We are fallen and broken beings. I agree that we must overcome narcissism and, as Freud himself says we must learn to love or fall ill and must fall ill if we cannot love, and I agree that we should be able to attain a sense of alwe and astonishment at the gift of life, the gift of the world, but the idea of achieving some blissfull sense of one ness this with the world to me is a seductive illusion. I know, people keep telling me that the Bbodhisattva returns with love. But I think a responsible person gets up from his seat under the tree and goes to fight the haters and exploiters, just as he continually flights the hater and exploiter in himself.

@doncarveth

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks Roger, glad to of been of some help.

@jonashjerpe7421

6 жыл бұрын

Don Carveth Thanks indeed for your insightful reply! Concerning the fall of man and the seductive illusion that human beings can transcend our broken, divided predicament. Unfortunately, within spirituality the seductive illusion is often quite tangible. Yes it typically comes across as an unconscious wish to escape our basic human predicament - with all of our primal drives, emotions and conflicts that come with it - in the name of eternal happiness and bliss. This is certainly not possible. However, we do not leave the paranoid schizoid position behind entirely, when we begin to occupy the depressive position. There is no reason to think that we somehow should completely transcend our basic human divided predicament, simply because we understand that, say, all is one and unitary on the level of universal consciousness. Although your basic observation about our inescapable human predicament is right, the conclusion that there is therefore nothing beyond the depressive position seems to be unwarranted and/or false. I suggest that there is a transcendent position, in which we deeply realize, on the couch or the meditation cushion as it were, that our true nature is not essentially linked to our separate body in space and time but rather to pure universal consciousness. Consciousness is, arguably, not a thing with a separate existence in the world. It is rather the vast, indefinite emptiness within which the world, you and I appear. In spirituality this position is typically referred to in terms of awakening, meaning that an otherwise mature individual has reached a deep experiential recognition of her true nature. The awakened individual knows what being human is like, pace that which is inevitably connected to the flesh, sin and the fall of man. Moreover I would say that there is yet another position which I tentatively would call the embodied transcendent position, in which the fully realized human being is consistently able to live and express herself from the truth realized in the transcendent position. This position corresponds to what the term enlightenment usually refers to within spirituality. Human beings don't leave our basic human predicament behind. The fall of man effectively understands human beings in terms of our flesh. This is really the original sin, from a spiritual point of view. We will inevitably be sinful and divided to the extent that we habitually identify with our bodies. Although it is true that we are separate in terms of flesh, it is also true that universe is one, as it were, from the point of view of universal consciousness. We are both separate and one. It is not either or, its both. We actually don't have to be in denial because of transcendence (which you appear to assume). Although this is painfully often the case in spiritual circles, it is still not necessarily the case. Some people disassociate into pure consciousness and claim awakening. Others expand their universe and the capacity to be present here and now. Pace the potential academic value of debates, I would ask if there is any substantial point in emphasizing, as I did, the so called spiritual positions? Yes, anxiety and suffering is inherently associated with the habitual identification with the separate body (the subject object distinction). To some extent this identification is probably both necessary and valuable, considering that human beings actually appear in bodily form in the world. However, to the extent that the incredibly deep and much entrenched identification with the flesh is replaced by a solid experiential identification with consciousness itself we actually tend to diminish our anxiety and suffering. Theoretically, we thereby enrich our understanding of what it means to be human and practically we improve the quality of life for ourselves and potentially for others. Although I am personally profoundly indebted to psychoanalysis for its capacity to reveal what we (I!) normally would like to avoid, I am often surprised by what often appears as an unwillingness from analysts to experientially explore potential limitations inherent in the very subject-object distinction. If this issue did not have so dramatic implications for our understanding of the human nature and the conditions of well being it would not perhaps merit the stubborness I hereby convey. The point is not to say that the subject-object distinction is wrong and to thereby philosophically debunk psychoanalysis. Quite the contrary. The distinction is valid and useful for many important tasks. However, ultimately it fails to shed light on our essential being. The value of psychoanalysis is, nevertheless, in my view undisputed. I certainly respect your declaration on the s o distinction. I very much appreciated what you said about the fall of man. I would propose though that human beings can heal, even substantially, precisely because psychoanalysis and meditation practice allow that which is wounded, divided and broken to bathe in that which is unconditionally whole, viz conscious itself. This observation, that there is something within us that is essentially and irreducibly whole, is arguably extremely important. The fall of man is paradoxically true. To the extent that we identify with the flesh, we are doomed to suffer. But the paradise is really not lost. Our wholeness is always there waiting, say, to heal our Oedipus conflict on the couch - as we mend our broken parts with our indestructible nature. Let me finally encourage you to deal with spirituality again in due course, should you be so inclined. I found your contribution most valuable. In that case please do reflect upon state-of-the art contributions within spirituality. Neither spirituality nor psychoanalysis (or you for that matter) deserve the creation of yet another strawman. For many years I have been seriously frustrated and disappointed by the perfectly off target reviews of psychotherapy I have encountered in international spiritual contexts. Let's raise the bar and the level of mutual respect and always deal respectfully with the best contributions possible from the opposing camp. I look forward to follow your publications that is to come. Yours in discourse, Jonas Hjerpe/Sweden.

OMG! When I saw that over-the-top video cover on "Jesus was the 1st Psychoanalyst," I thought that my Delusional Christian mother had risen from her grave for one final attempt to convert me back to God so that I be under her control. In reality, she believed that if all of her "children" would return to the church, she could at last feel that she was a good mother. I both loved and hated her. Listening to many of your videos, allowed me to realize that I have been lying to myself all these years. Thank you 💫 There are no words to express how I feel without this monkey on my back.

Thank you for another interesting video, Dr. Carveth! Really much appreciated.

Very valuable content indeed. I would suggest you to choose an exponent of spirituality that is kept in high regard within the western spiritual community, say Adyashanti. For him spirituality is essentially about realizing your true nature as opposed to our egoic - fear, desire and control driven - nature. In The End of Your World it is for example quite clear that this entails liberation from narcissism, amongst other things. I agree that the language within spirituality is often unnecessarily divine, even religious, but its quite possible to mature through spiritual practices into an identity of higher order, beyond the me and you as it were. Psychoanalysis seems to have difficulties moving beyond the subject object distinction - the observer and the observed. You seem to take this distinction, this divided, conflictual understanding of our nature for granted. Spirituality is ultimately about exploring and coming to a deeper identification with consciousness itself, in which there is no beginning, no end, no here and there, no me and you. That insight potentially undermines the very separation between outselves and the world, which is at the heart of our human suffering. In order to embody such insights, rather than merely acknowledge them intellectually, you clearly have to move beyond narcissism. Well you would arguably need to transcend the depressive position entirely. To live from the very nature of our consciousness is generally to experience and express love, joy, beauty and happiness. Actually it means to be guided by truth, a deep sense of what you are called to do, in life. Thanks

@amakoochuloo

5 жыл бұрын

thats is so imaginary to me. How can a human ever get there? This is is indeed a claim of spirituality which leaves me- personally -cold.

Mohamed, Thank you.

I enjoy your thinking very much, thank you

@doncarveth

4 жыл бұрын

Most welcome, thanks

Thanks for the great video Don, Regarding the min 11:I totally got the message where it considers self-worship as idolatry. Although in my opinion. the mystical interpretation of "the light within" is the "godlike" or "divine" characteristics of the psych (versus primitive aspects), and the part about worshipping moon and sun as superior to worshipping "light within" reminded me of a part of Quran: When Abraham worships sun and the sun goes down,he decides to worship stars and the stars goes down..and Abraham says i dont like a God that goes down...probably this verse considers going down or disappearing not a godlike or divine characteristic (being mortal versus the eternity of a possible God or a "eternal light within" which does not go down)

@doncarveth

3 жыл бұрын

That’s useful, thanks

@SaharSajadi

3 жыл бұрын

Regarding the fine line between mysticism and narcissism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hallaj I saw my Lord with the eye of the heart I asked, 'Who are You?' He replied, 'You'

Insofar as we take Christ as a symbol of conscience and of the good, then I need him to.

Dear Dr. Carveth, Thank you for this lecture and the video. I would like to comment that I find the word “ faithful” has a smoother tone than “religious” and is more meaningful than “spiritual”. It is very self uncaring attitude to take the lazy easy way to solve such important questions about life and the experiences one goes through. However, I do not think that our field of psychiatry/psychology can explain fully the matters that have para or metapsychological nature. Using this field to understand faith/ religion would be like using a electric engineering in understanding how people compose jokes or poetry. However I believe that it is very paramount for the person to solve the deep psychological suffering in order to have understanding of her/hilmself, so he can be ready to make the choice about faith and love. As Muslim, I believe that the experience of faith is when the I find the connection between the inner innate “light” or faith that was created inside my soul, and the outer “light” or the message and the teaching that comes in the religion. Experiencing the universal practices of my faith in a very subjective and personal way is the balanced way to understanding the experience of religion. Muhamad peace be upon him said: each one of you talk to the God when he prays, so pay attention to what do you put in use when you pray. It means to bring the self, the mind and soul, to the prayer. Doing this will give the subjective sense to the experience, “using the inner light to connect to the outer light”. I am very inpatient waiting for more of your great lectures. Best regards to you. Mohamed Practicing child and adolescent psychiatrist in USA

I am not sure about spiritual people aspiring to be ethical and such, but as a Christian I do not see myself as a paragon of ethical and moral behavior. And this precisely why I need Christ.

Those processes are covered in some of my other video lectures, including “The Trump Effect.”“

I love the Thomas Mann quote. Where did he state this?

@doncarveth

4 жыл бұрын

Jam Sorry, I can’t remember, though I’d love to know. Google search should help.

Don I can see you becoming spiritual

@doncarveth

4 жыл бұрын

Yes

I very much enjoy your videos. But Alas! We must find a way to get you converted into a neo-Jungian Ethologist!!!