Shootout: BMW 7 Series vs. Mercedes S-Class | A luxury motoring battle

Ғылым және технология

We put the BMW 7 Series against the Mercedes S-Class in a luxury motoring battle. A Shootout between two luxury titans. When it comes to drive or be driven, which will win?
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#BMW #Mercedes #Luxury

Пікірлер: 826

  • @dcharizard91
    @dcharizard918 жыл бұрын

    Great review...but should've also reviewed the backseat in these cars.

  • @WafflesOrFrenchToast

    @WafflesOrFrenchToast

    8 жыл бұрын

    Yeah that's a big deal with these cars

  • @hendradi3031

    @hendradi3031

    8 жыл бұрын

    +dcharizard91 Yes, because this is luxury car! not a track cars.

  • @naels91

    @naels91

    8 жыл бұрын

    yes definitely! these cars are all about sitting in the back seat and being driven by a chauffeur!

  • @tericacruse6

    @tericacruse6

    8 жыл бұрын

    +You Tube Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

  • @benchingbull831

    @benchingbull831

    8 жыл бұрын

    +dcharizard91 and the benz should have been the s65 amg v12

  • @emmanuelkwakye-boateng7425
    @emmanuelkwakye-boateng74258 жыл бұрын

    Cars in this segment are not known for driving dynamics but refinement and luxury, take the rolls Royce and Bentley for instance, you can never associate driving dynamics with them but luxury and refinement . So I think at that price the S class beats any car in this segment.

  • @hendradi3031

    @hendradi3031

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Emmanuel Kwakye-Boateng Agreed

  • @Kaisuke971

    @Kaisuke971

    8 жыл бұрын

    The reason why you can't associate them with it is simply because there is no Rolls Royce or Bentley in this segment whatsoever. The Flying Spur (cheapest Bentley on the market) is the S600 Maybach's direct competitor, but as you can probably tell the regular S Class (up to S600 AMG and excluding the AMG versions) is not in that segment, but competes directly against the A8 and the 7 Series. The Ghost is a bit higher marketed than the Maybach btw. The thing is, in this market (S/7/A8), we are at crossroads between cars you're supposed to be driven in and car that you drive. It'l almost down to wether you take the LWB or SWB version and personal taste. For that precise matter i'd say that driving dynamics are indeed very important: lots (if not most) of the owners will actually drive their cars. Some people want to feel executive and still drive their cars. That's why the Alpina B7 exists.

  • @iwearleatherjackets1

    @iwearleatherjackets1

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Kaisuke971 Pretty sure the Maybach goes against the Mulsanne, at a much cheaper price.

  • @EvoPower2010

    @EvoPower2010

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Kaisuke971 "That's why the Alpina exists" but those cars arent even the perfomance versions in the video. Talking driving dymanics in a 2+ tonne car? Come on. BMW are never going to win this LUXURY segment with this approach.

  • @6699faisal

    @6699faisal

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Kaisuke971 If they want performance they buy AMGs or ALPINAs or another segment of cars, because those saloons are luxury and refinement, not driving dynamics and sporty feel.

  • @WafflesOrFrenchToast
    @WafflesOrFrenchToast8 жыл бұрын

    I don't understand why they're reviewing luxury sedans on a track

  • @MrChevybaja

    @MrChevybaja

    8 жыл бұрын

    +WafflesOrFrenchToast they explained why

  • @dudove1

    @dudove1

    8 жыл бұрын

    They explained and reiterated it several times.

  • @FinestInstinct

    @FinestInstinct

    8 жыл бұрын

    Maybe you should rewatch the video then.

  • @dudove1

    @dudove1

    8 жыл бұрын

    Yea maybe you should actually listen

  • @FinestInstinct

    @FinestInstinct

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Daniel Udovenko I wasn't talking to you.

  • @iluvblackeyedpeas7
    @iluvblackeyedpeas78 жыл бұрын

    Brian Cooley was a delightful surprise.

  • @NylonStrings83
    @NylonStrings838 жыл бұрын

    always loved the 7 over the S , but the interior of the new S is just amazing its like rolls royce ,man i would pick the S class just for the interiors

  • @TahoeKing
    @TahoeKing8 жыл бұрын

    C'mon... A drag race would be a good finale to this amazing clip... Love the channel

  • @nikb6528

    @nikb6528

    8 жыл бұрын

    great idea!

  • @nematombo15

    @nematombo15

    8 жыл бұрын

    +AhmedAltima08 agreed!

  • @lEzoNi489

    @lEzoNi489

    8 жыл бұрын

    for the V6, S Class will win and in the V8's BMW gonna win... not talking about the AMG ( S63 )

  • @Slimecrazy234
    @Slimecrazy2348 жыл бұрын

    Ok Cnet here's the deal, this Roadshow thing has a good chance of going mainstream, but you MUST have Cooley present these reviews. He will be the Jeremy Clarkson of America.

  • @Cchichester
    @Cchichester8 жыл бұрын

    S class is better because you can get it anyway you want, V6,V8,V12, coupe, sedan and convertible

  • @dshu15

    @dshu15

    8 жыл бұрын

    +christian Chichester S Class as a coupe simply doesn't make sense, but that's just me...

  • @asdf-gx4gh

    @asdf-gx4gh

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Daniel Shulman I agree.

  • @teeduke2918

    @teeduke2918

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Mikeblast I disagree.....the s class coupe is absolutely gorgeous.

  • @TheAventadorSV

    @TheAventadorSV

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Daniel Shulman S Class coupe makes sense to the wealthy bachelor or bachelorette that doesn't need 4 doors.

  • @dshu15

    @dshu15

    8 жыл бұрын

    tee duke I never said it was ugly, it simply doesn't make sense as a coupe.

  • @dimasyusuf4969
    @dimasyusuf49698 жыл бұрын

    Brian Cooley: "If I'm about to hit something, I'd want to be in the Mercedes" LOL

  • @michaelmeltzer5210
    @michaelmeltzer52108 жыл бұрын

    Great review guys, your video's are some of the best on the net!

  • @patrickbdavis00
    @patrickbdavis008 жыл бұрын

    nice new format for roadshow. love the two hosts, especially since one was Cooley! liking the new channel a lot.

  • @HolmesProspecting
    @HolmesProspecting8 жыл бұрын

    Loving the new channel. Keep up the reviews!

  • @seb5945
    @seb59458 жыл бұрын

    This guy's voice is epic.

  • @shellinzmccall5136

    @shellinzmccall5136

    6 жыл бұрын

    Sebastian Rosenberg you gay af

  • @newcartubetv
    @newcartubetv8 жыл бұрын

    great review guys! even though ive been in both sedans i would pick the s-class, it just has more presence to me on the road. of course it would have to be done up cnet style

  • @aliszemoniquemarella9559
    @aliszemoniquemarella95598 жыл бұрын

    I like two-guy auto reviews, its just so great to see the exchange of thoughts and dialogue. Great review!

  • @william6909
    @william69098 жыл бұрын

    It's 2016 and such company like CNET uploads videos that max out at 720p resolution. Could You please upload at least in 1080p? We are in the days when 4K is getting down in price. But I gotta say, You guys raised cinematic experience, so it is a pleasure to watch.

  • @callme1million
    @callme1million8 жыл бұрын

    I love how professional you guys are. Keep up the good work, this channel is going places, or should I say subscribers. :D

  • @johnabner88
    @johnabner888 жыл бұрын

    Great review and good points were made. Thanks, I enjoyed.

  • @MrTobersheer
    @MrTobersheer8 жыл бұрын

    Am a BMWHead but to be honest Mercedes is King in this segment, one thing hate about it is the Command System, its just too much for me. BMW should work on their Interior though.

  • @oscardominguez1680
    @oscardominguez16808 жыл бұрын

    astonishing quality on the editing! great host also! keep it up

  • @docluv14
    @docluv148 жыл бұрын

    I was about to switch to a different video until Brian Cooley started his Tech review :)

  • @ballahm8016
    @ballahm80166 жыл бұрын

    A great review, thx a lot.

  • @fob1xxl
    @fob1xxl5 жыл бұрын

    For a "Sports" driving, it's BMW. For "Luxury" Driving it's MERCEDES Hands down.👍

  • @atnstn
    @atnstn8 жыл бұрын

    BMW wins again. What a surprise.

  • @KennyR

    @KennyR

    6 жыл бұрын

    That was a very big surprise, because the S-class is, and has always been the king of this luxury class saloons.

  • @DanielFoland
    @DanielFoland8 жыл бұрын

    Good show. Beautifully shot.

  • @ike5578
    @ike55782 жыл бұрын

    Probably the best car review I've ever seen , and trust me I've seen loads.

  • @trinisuprazee
    @trinisuprazee8 жыл бұрын

    liking roadshow so far keep it up@

  • @johnmcc4928
    @johnmcc49286 жыл бұрын

    Great video well executed 👍👍👍👍

  • @nastyscorp
    @nastyscorp8 жыл бұрын

    BMW did it.

  • @elsimoe7816
    @elsimoe78168 жыл бұрын

    cooley and this dude are amazing together great video

  • @GnatGoSplat
    @GnatGoSplat5 жыл бұрын

    I appreciate the driver-oriented review. I love the way big sedans look, so I'd like to buy a used one to drive. I couldn't care less about a back seat that won't get used.

  • @habbaw
    @habbaw8 жыл бұрын

    very cool and great review, keep it up.. you guys by far the best American car review show CNET is the best

  • @minhal3917
    @minhal39176 жыл бұрын

    BMW wins for sure!

  • @martinvon9973

    @martinvon9973

    4 жыл бұрын

    Because why?

  • @booblam6919

    @booblam6919

    4 жыл бұрын

    BENZ all the way.

  • @vladimirmarinov6730
    @vladimirmarinov67304 жыл бұрын

    I was pretty damn sure it was going to be a cop-out "shootout" with both being "winners". Glad I was wrong. Respect that you didn't go the cop-out route.

  • @aryapradhanad186
    @aryapradhanad1867 жыл бұрын

    The BMW 7 Series offers a great blend of comfort and sporty driving, it also looks better in my opinion and if you want it to ride as well as the Mercedes-Benz you can opt for the Executive Drive Pro which is the same as Mercedes's magic body control but works at night and rain too which the Mercedes-Benz doesn't

  • @yakha470

    @yakha470

    5 жыл бұрын

    and On S class only work with RWD

  • @dragoljubpetrovic5195
    @dragoljubpetrovic51958 жыл бұрын

    Both are awesome, but i noticed on start that paint around labels is better on bmw :) great video btw

  • @6699faisal
    @6699faisal8 жыл бұрын

    Bmw is doing something new?? their interior is almost exactly the same interior of all their cars!! And the older 7 series is no exception. The Mercedes actually changed their interior with "Classic/Modern" mix with minimal resemblance to the older model. And quite frankly the tech in the BMW is mostly useless, I mean "Gesture Control" seriously?? What about the magic body control on the Mercedes? why no body talked about it? And finally those are LUXURY SALOONS.... they are not meant for sporty track racing, they are made for comfort.... So Mercedes actually excelled at that, whereas the BMW didn't excel in either category.

  • @chrisf6514

    @chrisf6514

    8 жыл бұрын

    Bmw won the shootout, Brian Cooley is one of the top reviewers in the world, BMW are fun to drive,it has a feel for the road,the Benz is a floating yacht, maybe you should watch the video again 🤘

  • @6699faisal

    @6699faisal

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Chris F Well I guess you should read my comment again… that's exactly why the S class is better in its class then the 7 series.

  • @chrisf6514

    @chrisf6514

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Faisal al-inaizi nothing wrong with second place😢

  • @44wadood

    @44wadood

    8 жыл бұрын

    These reviewers r pathatic. S class is top class

  • @chrisf6514

    @chrisf6514

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Slaveofwadood Cooley has been reviewing cars for 20 years, S class lost

  • @G00dm0le
    @G00dm0le8 жыл бұрын

    Good review!

  • @951000jerome
    @951000jerome8 жыл бұрын

    the dual view screen thing isn't unique to mercedes, some land rovers have it

  • @lesliejackson4759

    @lesliejackson4759

    8 жыл бұрын

    I am very surprised Brian Cooley messed that up.

  • @ridvanalbay7747

    @ridvanalbay7747

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Leslie Jackson Or the parfume. French 10 year Old cars Have it xD

  • @Dieselfeel
    @Dieselfeel8 жыл бұрын

    Is Brian Cooley regularly on this show? God I've been missing out if he is, subbing

  • @jeromep3182
    @jeromep31828 жыл бұрын

    Great review I like both of the cars but I still would have to go with the Mercedes Benz just for the fact that I like the styling better and you can still get it in a v12 and a coupe option

  • @dliv33
    @dliv338 жыл бұрын

    wow...u guys are good love emi how u guys put her in more shows

  • @chimaeraSPK
    @chimaeraSPK8 жыл бұрын

    Jaguar also uses the dual view screen in their XJ. Is CNET On Cars going to air on this channel?

  • @renuagarwal8984
    @renuagarwal89848 жыл бұрын

    At 8:30..I would like to mention that ,that dual way LCD screen is not unique to S-class as Jaguar XJ already has it for years now... Anyways great review guys....Keep it up!!

  • @6699faisal

    @6699faisal

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Renu Agarwal Mercedes had it since 2006.

  • @vintagehaynesflute
    @vintagehaynesflute4 жыл бұрын

    Come back in 5 years and compare repair costs. Now THAT would be interesting!

  • @siphotos3282
    @siphotos32825 жыл бұрын

    I love both of these cars , I have the previous generation Audi A8 2011 , I think one of these will be my next luxury sedan .

  • @bogdannowak2320
    @bogdannowak23208 жыл бұрын

    nice review, nice guy !!

  • @fredmanteghian5913
    @fredmanteghian59135 жыл бұрын

    Great video - i'm glad to hear that the 750i is sporty and other than the slightly too light steering, is still a performance BMW. The Nancy's at Car & Driver are too full of themselves. Good to hear from some real people.

  • @michiyolimjiaen4190
    @michiyolimjiaen41908 жыл бұрын

    Mercedes? Hahaha nah bro I will rather take BMW 😆

  • @barricade37
    @barricade378 жыл бұрын

    incredible camera work

  • @MiyuruWeerarathna
    @MiyuruWeerarathna8 жыл бұрын

    Excellent review but motor trend's head to head is better. Also the split view screen for driver and passenger was forst in the Range Rover.

  • @Tmak153
    @Tmak1538 жыл бұрын

    People talking about why they didn't talk about the back seats (it would have made more sense if they did). Well from my experience these two cars from the back seats are not significantly different. In the sense that the 7 series is not significantly more luxurious the the S class and vice versa. People try to make it as though there is a huge different but there isn't. They are both very comfortable and offer the same bells and whistles. screens, massage, heated and cooled seats, reclining, entertainment, etc. I think the review was practical (except the track) because most of the people that buy these cars buy them to drive them. I have seen countless S classes and 7serieses (ratio 30:1; for every 30 S classes i see 1 7series. lol) and I realized one common factor. There is hardly anyone sitting in the back. They are large luxury cars but most of the owners drive the cars themselves. So reviewing these cars from the driver seat more than the back seats make sense to me.

  • @rueben44
    @rueben448 жыл бұрын

    Good review and so glad you addressed why you were trying to track cars like this. I really get tired of reviewers saying the Germans do electronics better when it comes to infotainment. This is so not true and one experience with Benz's setup proves it.

  • @ballahm8016
    @ballahm80166 жыл бұрын

    Totally agree 👍🏻

  • @kristzendo13
    @kristzendo138 жыл бұрын

    Saw Brian Cooley and subscribed instantly

  • @fulaan1
    @fulaan16 жыл бұрын

    Hard to choose but I love both cars

  • @jameslawton4534
    @jameslawton45348 жыл бұрын

    That split screen has been available on range rovers for many years has it not?

  • @justthisguy1948

    @justthisguy1948

    5 жыл бұрын

    James Lawton same thing is why

  • @tweakxxx
    @tweakxxx8 жыл бұрын

    Wow it's nice to hear it BMW win wow and WOW I buy BMW in feature BMW is one of my favorite future dream car BMW - ROCK

  • @khuayra4604
    @khuayra46048 жыл бұрын

    The main point of luxury cars is the luxury (back seat). That's what you guys are missing. If it's driver oriented or track focused then I'd just go for a supercar

  • @obinwanneugo
    @obinwanneugo8 жыл бұрын

    The fact that the much older mercedes is still comparable to the the all new bmw means that mercedes is definitely doing something right

  • @meanvecktor1900
    @meanvecktor19004 жыл бұрын

    They’re both are excellent cars I have both of them 2008 Bmw 760li 2013 Mercedes S65! I wouldn’t trade them for anything!

  • @MohnishLimbasia
    @MohnishLimbasia8 жыл бұрын

    Anyone knows about the soundtrack played in the first few seconds? Both cars are great! I'd love to go with BMW ALPINA

  • @zinner927
    @zinner9278 жыл бұрын

    Not sure why but I like you tim stevens first heard you on TWIT btw, leo helping make you famous!

  • @bondvln
    @bondvln8 жыл бұрын

    I have take my 7 series to the track and often to mountain runs and its handles really well for the size and weight.

  • @fransarj
    @fransarj8 жыл бұрын

    Brian cooley is here. Subscribed.

  • @GranDaddo
    @GranDaddo8 жыл бұрын

    I would love to try those laser headlights.

  • @not2stupidguitar
    @not2stupidguitar8 жыл бұрын

    excellent video

  • @luvthepie
    @luvthepie2 жыл бұрын

    YOU GUYS NAILED IT.....They don't call it the ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE FOR NOTHING! Love my 750Li (hated giving up & selling my 2001 740iL......but.....so many new bells & whistles!)

  • @garyhuntsr71698
    @garyhuntsr716985 жыл бұрын

    Professional, Fair and Genuine!

  • @jasonl5589
    @jasonl55898 жыл бұрын

    Why is Brian here!?!?! haha niceee

  • @indifferentghost
    @indifferentghost8 жыл бұрын

    Hey Cooley, the double screen feature is not unique to Mercedes. I sat in a Range Rover that had that feature over 5 years ago!

  • @seb5945
    @seb59458 жыл бұрын

    Wooooooo!!! Cooley! x)

  • @vinayydv7544
    @vinayydv75448 жыл бұрын

    amazing review but you didn't explain much about rear luxury

  • @shopwithaaron
    @shopwithaaron8 жыл бұрын

    Like the competitive nature...can't pick my favorite .....

  • @sieramonlacambra8512
    @sieramonlacambra85128 жыл бұрын

    Nice shoot out.

  • @andrewsmith9980
    @andrewsmith9980 Жыл бұрын

    Which one do buy used and which is more reliable and cheaper to maintain? It seems like they both had a lot technology for 2016. I have also seen the bmw as more of a diy car but would prefer looks and the message seats of the Mercedes. Will be buying something soon please let me know what you think.

  • @bensalvidge3400
    @bensalvidge34007 жыл бұрын

    Oh for gods sake! The 7 series is not meant for the track! Yes, there is a sporty 7 series (7M). But That's a whole different story, the 7 series is just pure luxury. A car that involves varieties of technology. You have loads of options for the car. The 7 series has that nice look to it as well. The 7 series can also involve massage seats in the front as well than in the back. You can also put your seat in a good position at the back as well (Electric seats). So overall, the 7 series is not a track toy it's just a nice pure luxury car.

  • @yourjokesaretotallyfromthe8909
    @yourjokesaretotallyfromthe89098 жыл бұрын

    Waiting for the BMW Alpina B7 XDRIVE

  • @PlayerNineteen
    @PlayerNineteen8 жыл бұрын

    Why didn't you review the actually new 760Li?

  • @TrinityEntWorld
    @TrinityEntWorld7 жыл бұрын

    Hell no , gimme an S class any day, I'm getting old after a long day of work that's the car I would like to be in

  • @don-pl2rj

    @don-pl2rj

    4 жыл бұрын

    Preach brother

  • @Aaroncmrust
    @Aaroncmrust8 жыл бұрын

    yeah brian cooley!!!

  • @georgealex19
    @georgealex198 жыл бұрын

    @8:32, not really unique to them, the Range Rover had the dual-display back since 2012 if I recall :)

  • @jadariuspennyfeather7934
    @jadariuspennyfeather79348 жыл бұрын

    Finally a legit review not focusing on knit picky details. BMW for the win :D

  • @04tsxpower
    @04tsxpower7 жыл бұрын

    knew your pick before the end

  • @thevictoryman196
    @thevictoryman196 Жыл бұрын

    I love both cars hard to decide which one to get.

  • @PharaohofKemet
    @PharaohofKemet7 жыл бұрын

    I would want a car that's luxury as well as fun to drive and I think that was the point that this review was trying to make, yes the S class if smoother but what it has gained in ride comfort it looses in having fun on the road. I'm a speed demon, when I get on the highway I like to drive fast and feel the road as I'm driving it "don't like a detached ride feeling" so that's why I would pick the BMW. It still gives you luxury plus a more fun attitude when driving.

  • @flowerguides
    @flowerguides8 жыл бұрын

    how about some fresh air....that cracked me up

  • @illstplaya

    @illstplaya

    8 жыл бұрын

    I started laughing at that part too

  • @ChristopherBong
    @ChristopherBong8 жыл бұрын

    Wow...both these cars are beautiful... =D

  • @maxamedmohamed6131
    @maxamedmohamed61318 жыл бұрын

    Good show i like it

  • @cassinovashalo
    @cassinovashalo8 жыл бұрын

    FYI, Land Rover did the "split screen" thing quite a while back.

  • @primoperez805
    @primoperez8058 жыл бұрын

    You should restate BMW's hand gesture compatibility as a huge safety upgrade!

  • @samin90
    @samin908 жыл бұрын

    The 7 series because it drives better? Why not buy a Cayman as a second car or something if you want driving dynamics?

  • @ajosanchez1
    @ajosanchez18 жыл бұрын

    I'm sorry but there was a mistake in the tech review of the Merc. The Split View Screen is not a new thing from Mercedes. Range Rover has had this feature for years now in their infotainent screen.

  • @GirishKumarBhat

    @GirishKumarBhat

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Joaquín Sánchez Jag XJ has it too, saw it on a Fifth gear show few years ago....

  • @dvanecunningham4679

    @dvanecunningham4679

    6 жыл бұрын

    Mercedes had it from 2006.....do your research.

  • @rohilsrivastava6238
    @rohilsrivastava62387 жыл бұрын

    Testing the sportiness is ok, but on the track is not the right way. As Stevens said, "the transmission is reluctant" in the s class. Like motor trend said. The s class won't let you shift as hard. I tried leaving the s550 in first gear, and it actually handles pretty well. The BMW is obviously better, but the merc isn't bad either.

  • @eno5330
    @eno53308 жыл бұрын

    Great review,. Always BMW wins. I have the X5 and what a pleasure to drive, the response is amazing..

  • @ajnut
    @ajnut8 жыл бұрын

    Actually, that split-screen viewing function on the S-Class isn't unique to M-B. JLR had it first on the Range Rover and the Jaguar XJ.

  • @brandonjolley8806
    @brandonjolley88068 жыл бұрын

    12min video and you didn't even show the rear cabin of the S class? And when Cooley does talk about the rear seats of the S class, you show a photo of the 7 series?

  • @user-lr9xe2hx8o
    @user-lr9xe2hx8o8 жыл бұрын

    ชื่นชอบมาก

  • @TheVividProject
    @TheVividProject8 жыл бұрын

    Anyone know the intro song?

  • @teeduke2918
    @teeduke29188 жыл бұрын

    BMW 7 series winner by default. theirs no way the 7 series can top the s class. I mean look what they tested......driving. why would you test cars like these on the track instead of testing the rear seats?

  • @chrisf6514

    @chrisf6514

    8 жыл бұрын

    Your gonna buy a $100,000 car because of the rear seats?

  • @sonicskills123

    @sonicskills123

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Chris F yep... its a luxury sedan, that's a very important component of the car

  • @1990Thunderbolt

    @1990Thunderbolt

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Chris F dude. there's a samsung tablet in the rear seat of the g11 for a reason.

  • @chrisf6514

    @chrisf6514

    8 жыл бұрын

    +1990Thunderbolt so most people have a iPhone while driving..if want to sit in the back seat driving 55 mph be my guest, this car does 4.3 seconds 0-60 same as the M5

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