Roland need a specific FAT and track layout, that’s why you must format the disk in the MT. You know I have a bunch of stuff available for General MIDI that you could have used. ;)

@ml.2770

Ай бұрын

Do the MT 200 and D-20 keyboard use the same strange floppy signalling and formatting?

@lenharms9755

Ай бұрын

If I remember correctly there were 2 common FAT formats from the time FAT12 and FAT16. There was an older FAT version but not used as much. Now it could also be formatting the drive as single sided or one of the lower sizes. But from a windows computer it would probably default it to FAT16 (or vFAT) and use the max size it can get away with (for that disk 1.44). Depending on the version of windows you are using you would have to very carefully control the format by using the CLI and feeding it int he right options.

@AndersEngerJensen

Ай бұрын

@@ml.2770I don’t know specifics since I never had a D-20, but I know all disk based HD sequencers/players from this GM/GS era (SB-55 and onwards) used the same formatting scheme. Why it works one way and not both ways… haven’t checked the details, but I’m thinking there may be some sort of header or byte check it needs so it can verify the medium. Roland engineers did some weird design choices, hard to know for sure unless there is some sort of technical statement on these things out there I haven’t seen yet, or one of them can come online and tell us.

@user-tk2hl4fz2l

Ай бұрын

@@AndersEngerJensenyes Byte check os correct, I worked on that machine. I verify your assertion. The boss made the call because he wanted to try some form of copy protection but we never completely implemented it. Thank you sir come again.

@mnotgninnep

Ай бұрын

I guess the trick then would be to take an image of a Roland formatted disk and apply it from the computer each time you use a new disk, before writing files.

As a stagehand who has worked with multiple types of audio and video equipment over the last 30 years of my career, I can absolutely say that the disc issue is a feature, not a bug. In particular, at this time, this kind of equipment often used very specific parameters in their disk formatting, often within the FAT spec (eg cluster sizes) In a way that Windows/dos could read, and even write to most of the time, but in order to format on a PC, you needed to know those exact parameters and manufacturers were not always forthcoming with them. Not only can the parameters vary between brands, they can even vary between lines of equipment within a brand. This is why formatting on the machine works and it still is readable in a PC, but not the other way around necessarily.

@commodork

Ай бұрын

This was my thought as well.

@yakmage8085

Ай бұрын

Also he could take a disk image of an empty disk and use that on pc instead of formatting it on the device

@nickwallette6201

Ай бұрын

To an extent, this was probably necessary. FAT has several variables that can all be set differently and still produce a completely valid volume. It would be MUCH easier to write compact code (important for early computerized devices like this that had next to no memory to work with) that made certain assumptions that would be valid if, and only if, the volume was structured _just so._

Regarding the disk issue, there is likely a subtle difference in the way the MT-200 formats the disk versus a modern Windows version. Have a look at the first block of the disk in a hex editor, the Roland may be looking for a specific media descriptor (at offset 0x15) to determine the "correct" disk format, a value which is mostly ignored these days.

Descent 1 and 2 have always been underrated

@rommix0

Ай бұрын

What's more underrated is the Descent 2 CD audio. That to me is the definitive soundtrack for that game.

@mad1316

Ай бұрын

@@rommix0 oh yeah that redbook audio was fantastic

About tha Bad Touch remix, yes, is a euro dance remix. I had that song on a euro dance / house / techno music compilation album from 1999 and that's exactly how starts.

Actually if you read the manual for this device it uses a special disk format that is different from a standard formatted disk. You can find further information on the Roland website. The device uses the ISM MUSIC DATA DISK FORMAT. A PC can still read them but you need to format them on the device. Also according to the manual the device is compatible with two MIDI formats. SMF or Standard format. This is probably the limitation with the Yamaha is it is only compatible with SMF or similar. There is not much further information about ISM MUSIC DATA DISK FORMAT online but thankfully the manual for this device is preserved.

I want a car stereo version of this, so I can shove floppies into my dashboard and jam out to some sweet MIDI tracks as I'm rollin'.

@Xsiondu

Ай бұрын

Hey! That's an original idea right there. I hope you make one of those and show us a video about how you designed and installed.

@samuraidriver4x4

Ай бұрын

Shouldn't be to terribly difficult to emulate something like that with a usb floppy drive and a raspberry pi. Sadly it wouldn't sound as good as the real thing.

@ScottOmatic

Ай бұрын

@@Xsiondu I think the board is too wide to fit in the space of a double-din head unit, if it had a mainboard and daughterboard that you could stack on top of each other config inside, and then you could probably 3d-print a bezel for it.

@Xsiondu

Ай бұрын

@@samuraidriver4x4 , @ScottOmatic the sound in the original unit comes from a chip right? It's a Yamaha FM synthesis or something equivalent to that I would imagine. Can't be impossible to get ahold of one and build.... WAIT‼️ isn't there an "Open Sound Blaster" project going on right now? See where I'm going with this‽ A little bit of that project, a floppy controller, some PCB Way, and kapton tape! This has to be doable for someone that isn't me 😂

Orange doom floppy disk is from Roland Atelier AT organ

I've been trying to amass some good sounding Midi files for a jukebox type setup but as you mention, it can be so time consuming because of the multiple versions of everything. (And so many sound kind of .. terrible)

@TechTangents

Ай бұрын

It's hilarious how easy it is to get 10k+ MIDIs of music you know and then have it be so hit and miss for what actually sounds good. I find myself sorting massive collections by file size and starting with the largest. It helps get you to some good ones quickly but isn't perfect because there are definitely some well optimized small MIDIs too. What I would pay to get Synthetic Core 88 as native MIDI...

@adriansdigitalbasement

Ай бұрын

@TechTangents That's a good tactic. I'd love it if someone posted some nice curated collections. ;-)

@jonwest776

Ай бұрын

@@adriansdigitalbasement It never sounded good back then! If you want to get something to sound good it was getting into sound fonts.

@Aquatarkus96

Ай бұрын

@@adriansdigitalbasement If you like prog rock I may be able to hook you up :)

@Aquatarkus96

Ай бұрын

@@jonwest776 Nowadays, you can load the midi into a DAW like FL Studio and load up VST synths to trigger off of each midi channel. Honestly it can be a pretty fun time waster ngl.

Reminds me of the handful of MIDI copies of What Is Love I have. So much variation.

You have a knack for finding and presenting hardware I've never heard of yet find incredibly desirable. But, I'm a bit of a MIDI fanatic who mostly missed the boat on the cool original hardware and am finding modern recreations for my experiences. The MT-200 sounds fantastic as well as an "SC-55” should. Descent is one of my jam soundtracks as well, though my experience was on a Yamaha SW60XG back then and it sounds "delightfully different" on the intended SC-55 hardware. Nice coverage!

0:00 Now this make me think of an alternate timeline where music CDs failed to gain market, and listenting to MIDI floppies in your car is the standard thing, haha!

Those General MIDI sounds take me back to better and more fun times!

Yes I'm Siskel yes I'm Ebert, and you're getting two thumbs up

@Capt.Pikles

23 күн бұрын

I just lost the game

It just labels the disk somehow. Check for extra partitions or labels with a disk inspector. If you are using Mac to format, it places hidden files on it. Remove them, maybe it's that.

"Grab Bag" was the best way to start this.

@CptJistuce

Ай бұрын

Grabbag is the best way to start anything.

@Roxor128

14 күн бұрын

Oh, I can think of a few other candidates. The Apogee Fanfare. The opening from the Space Quest 1 VGA remake. Shadow Warrior theme. The shareware version contains a MIDI version (registered version is CD-audio-only). Descent theme. This is sticking strictly to "first thing you hear on starting the game" tracks, or otherwise I'd be suggesting several other games that have good music after the Apogee Fanfare or their first level.

Kudos sir. You got me to watch an entire video on midis... Something I was literally interested in for only about 3 minutes after hearing midi enter sandman and have thought they were horrible sense

I love piping MIIDI to the USB input on my Yamaha keyboard because it's enough of General MIDI that even the classics don't sound too off. PSR-K1

Never seen a MIDI, synth, music software etc. that worked in a sane way.

@Roxor128

14 күн бұрын

The file format is a bit of a mind-screw, too. There's heaps of variable-length encodings in it. I think the Unicode Consortium must have looked at MIDI and thought "That's perfect! Let's do that, too!"

Such a RAD video man - Being someone born in the mid 80s and growing up on older hardware and games, these midi sounds really produce an absurd amount of nostalgia. Cheers from Cape Town South Africa!

Regarding the floppy formatting issues earlier in the video, I've often found that formatting on DOS 6.x or earlier seems to be the most compatible. Around the time of Win 95 / NT, just reading the contents of a floppy without the write-protect tab enabled would often mess with the boot sector.

There's just something about making and using your own disks. Nothing sets me off more than "just use a gotek" or "just use xt-ide" when asking for help with retro hardware.

@sedrosken831

Ай бұрын

Floppies sure, those are cheap. But XT era hard drives are dropping like flies and not generally worth keeping going outside the appeal of keeping a computer original and the historical value. I use floppies all the time, I don’t even own a gotek, but you will pry my SD to IDE adapters and XT-IDE ROMs from my cold, dead fingers, lol

@MysteriousFigure

Ай бұрын

@@sedrosken831 Exactly, no point in arguing about whether its period correct or whatever when a device could easily become non functional because of it, its not exactly like anyone makes ide hard drives, never mind xt era ones (and if you have an old mac, scsi ones are even rarer), so sooner than later that will become the sole choice

You played Hit The Lights and unlocked memories I forgot I had. Before we had Napster, I would download Metallica midis and dub them to cassette on my dad's incredible stereo system. Almost all of those midis were from KEA. Thanks for the crazy nostalgia hit.

After your last video I went on a hunt for something similar and came upon the MT-300s, which actually looks like a boombox. Bought one on eBay and it’s awesome. The speakers get stupid loud and sound great, and like the 200 you can connect it to a computer and use it like an SC-55. I’m never getting rid of it as it’s one of my favorite pieces of audio gear.

Now I want to hear some of the Kings Quest Heir today, Gone Tomorrow via this thing, love your videos!!

Nostalgia hit hard. Thanks Man!!

I've got a ton of Roland MIDI players. MT-300s is probably the favorite for the form factor. Sadly, despite looking like a boombox, it has no battery power option. I though about modding some lithium cells into it, but it is quite packed on the inside. And I didn't want to ruin a mint condition item. SD-35 is neat, but reliance on SD diskettes makes it problematic. Upside, is that the infrared remote that comes with SD-35 also works with SB-55, that has an awesome look, when combined with an SC-55 Mk2. I'm so in love with that specific era of sound and with Roland sound signatures, that was all I collected. MT-200 is nice as well. There's a bunch of Roland sequencers that look similar. When it comes to Roland, everything is well made, as far back as MT-32. Can't go wrong with Roland. Longevity of parts is superb. Better than Korg and Yamaha.

I was a MIDI composer back in the day. I never had the opportunity to use equipment like this. I guess could say my first compositions were done on a Tandy 1000 ( I forget which one, but it had the music notation software in its Deskmate version). Not quite standard MIDI, but I'm sure it worked similarly. Then, on to a 486, with a SB16 and OPL3, and finally upgrades from there to wavetable synthesis. I really should get back into it. I enjoyed making stuff up, and doing "covers" of songs, and trying to make them sound the best I could. I do have examples on my KZread channel, but they could even be improved upon. I was a little reverb heavy, at times lol.

I used to have a crap-ton of those desktop midi modules, then swapped to 19" rack modules. Blast from the past!

Those things are great and underrated. I use a Casio FD-1 which has a nice piano display on the front panel as well and I modded it with EL backlight too :-) Then it goes into a Yamaha MJC8 as a splitter kind of thing, which then runs the signal into an MU50, an SC88Pro, or my homemade AY-based synth for ZX Spectrum tunes. Lovely setup for someone who keeps losing files on their own computer and prefers physical media!

So in the midst of being engrossed by the awsome quality of doom e1m1, I utter, this is sooo coool, right as you said "kinda Awsome"

Got a thumbs up just on the bloodhound gang midi! Loved that!

My piano teacher in the 90s used to use one of these, spent a lot of time playing to its accompaniment!

Man... when we were coming out of high school the lead of my band converted a bunch of our songs to midi (you could even hear them on our Geocities web site, or whatever it was). I'd love to hear those on some of the midi heavy hitters we couldn't afford back then...

Ahhhh, the memories!

Pretty sure that second version is "The Bad Touch (Eiffel 65 mix)" I know it from Wild GOLD vol2

A download to all the MIDIs used in this video would be so nice

Now, you gotta post images of those custom album disks so that we can make our own.

Great video!

So as someone with a little bit of reverse engineering experience. I think you might check into creating a disk image and inspecting the hex code. Create two identical images, one formatted on the device and one formatted on the computer, and then do a hex dump of the disk images that are created.

Ahahah nice! I remember programming Seek and Destroy in mod format on my amiga back in the day.

I have converted lots of floppy drives for use in old synthesizers and there are more things to set besides DF0/DF1, it depends on the system requirements for the drive. However not every drive has jumpers or pcb solder jumpers for all those options so you have to find relatively old drives and those have more configuration options.

Regarding the varying quality of MIDI content available on the inter-webs. For early/mid 90s Sound Canvas devices, I would recommend obtaining professional made and sold MIDI disks mainly from Roland, Music Sales, Edirol etc. These with a "Sound Brush 55" + "Sound Canvas" combo are a perfect match (chain playback, remote control...)

Was really wanting one of the Roland MT's back in the day. Expensive though.

I can appreciate wanting to use the "real deal" floppies, but I still say put a gotek in it. I have an MT120S and put a gotek in it. The Roland does have the floppy drive configured a little weird, so it took me a few days to get it happy with the gotek... but it now works great. If you use a gotek with oled screen and dial encoder, you basically have a library of virtual floppies to choose from. The great thing about the 120 and 200 over the 90 is MIDI out.

The intro alone gave you a 👍

Thanks for the nostalgic sounds of my Teens!

Can you flux dump a new from a box disk and than the same disk format in a Roland MT-200 and post this two online for any one checking out the difference between this two dumps?

Don’t listen to Shelby when he says these aren’t the same as the later MT90U. The later models might have dropped the recording feature and added a microphone, but they are both still primarily playback and practising aids.

A, tangential question, I happen to have that Cambridge Soundworks 4.1 speaker system, and the PSU has that exact brown, darkening on it. Was told it, might not be safe to use anymore, heating up, that sort of thing. Had any trouble with yours? And another related thought, I recall, when formatting on a PC, you can choose, allocation sizes and such. Are those, different on the disks the MT 200 formats?

Hey wake up! It's Sunday! A new TechTangents video went live!

Imagine having the Roland MT-200 as your car stereo.

I could be wrong, but I remember when these first came out, and I’m pretty sure these units were always known to be kinda sketchy with floppy disks.

Oh god I want one… I bought an SC-55 the other day as one came up super cheap locally (and came with the rare remote!) I’ve been after an MT-32 for a while but they’re all silly money 😢 Off back down the midi rabbit hole 😂

Awesome video! It also gives me hope that it might just be possible to hook up my Yamaha MU-128v2 to an MSX computer with a MIDI cartridge and play XG midis from it ;-). It probably requires me to write the MIDI player myself... I've already tried it using the built-in firmware of an Philips NMS-1205 Music Module and while it is a cool setup in theory, it sounds awful in practice, which is not surprising as the two devices were from completely different eras.

I can't believe you played a bloodhound gang song on a midi player. For a second, I was wondering why the tune sounded familiar.

it's super cool

Making your own labels for floppy discs 👌I made one for an Ebook to demonstrate you can have a PHYSICAL copy of a ebook in your hands :D so I totally get it

That Duke Nukem theme on this machine slapped!

My piano teacher way back when used a similar piece of Roland kit for our lessons

What are the odds! I’ve received the MT-120 recently which is the little brother of this. Not sure of the sequencer differences, but from the Sound Canvas module side it has an SC-50 instead of an SC-55. The only difference is that the SC-50 doesn’t offer the MT-32 compatibility bank, so very little of value is lost. FYI no drive issues on mine, I can format disks on PC or the device and they’ll work. Maybe it’s a head alignment issue?

@cromulence

Ай бұрын

Also, do check out the professional MIDI disks that have been posted on The Internet Archive - some of them are insanely good - Roland’s official covers of Jump and Always On My Mind have no right sounding as good as they do. If you’re feeling brave, also check out Techno Trax. They sound best on an SC-88 or higher, but a lot of the effects will still work on an SC-55 - I had no idea the SC-55 had wah, filter cut off etc. bonkers.

@cromulence

Ай бұрын

Oh, and random fun fact. The metronome on this ISN’T generated from the sound canvas module, as to not impede on the available polyphony.

I have the MT-300S, which is mostly the same but boombox style with stereo speakers. 😄

Nice!

I have the last version of the MT-90 with the USB port so I put MIDI on a thumbdrive and stick it in. I somehow managed to get a good deal on a brand new one a number of years ago, so no need for a Gotek or disks. I've seen the MT-200 around but given I've got so much equipment I decided to skip it. Of course, the big question is, why not hook the MT-200 to your laptop to sample the MIDI files first before copying them to a disk? Seems to save a step so when you find the perfect one you can dump it on the disk after auditioning it.

I’m a big MIDI Fan of music.

It might be a bit temperamental - but it sounds ssoooooooo amazing!

is it possible to make and image before and after the formatting and compare them to see what is different

Could you potentially place a GM or GS reset SysEx message at the beginning of each MIDI file so that settings from previous MIDI files are not automatically inherited?

This makes me so glad Kontakt exists.

What about the record button?

RTFM 😉Owner's manual page 24: A brand-new disk (or one that was used with some other machine) must first be "formatted" before you can use it with the MT-200. Don't skip this step, because if the disks are not formatted for the MT-200, you will be unable to read or write anything onto them.

I have a Suzuki SMT-1 which is an OEM of Roland MT90S and I think its the coolest that the MT-100, also 3.5inch floppy built in speaker although not a recording studio but play Midi2 and full SC55mkII, along with it siblings I have, MT-32, CM300. My main PC is a PC9821 and I have a large floppy collection of PC98 midi files and X68k and COnsole midi music to play with. NO GOTEK . I also made colour labels for each floppy album, I also did it for my previous MT-100 but slow one by one the QD (Quick disks) died to I got the SMT-1 just a few month in Japan

could you make an image of a roland formatted disc on the grease weasel, then you that to format the disks ?

The MT-32 has a disk player, called the MT-100. The unfortunate thing with the MT-100 is that it takes 3" disks, not 3.5" disks, but is similar to the MT-200, other than featuring an MT-32 internally. (I've noticed the MT-32 inside the MT-100 is the later revision with headphone port). I've got a cosmetically bad MT-100 but used it for the MT-32 part just fine (it was cheap!)

Have you tried formatting in both and seeing what differences that your imaging software can see?

Legend

you said the disc did work and now it doesn't? I haven't seen your first video but I would guess the read heads are clogged up or the drive/head alignment is shifting.

And I want those Duke3D and DOOM floppy labels lol

It's strange. I had the same years in service and all pc disks formatted by the pc worked on this. Is it because of the version they sell outside of Europe and this limitation with the USA models? I can't say, but I was very satisfied with the unit.

Does the drive stop spinning on this model when it's idle? On my MT 300s it keeps running as long as a disk is insterted and it makes me worried about wearing out the mechanism if I leave it powered on with a floppy inserted. I stuck a yamaha MD-BT01 midi bluetooth dongle in mine so I can use it as a wireless "streaming" speaker instead :)

Well now I want one.

for troublesom midi files you can use GNmidi and most of the time correct them

Any updates coming for the Data Generals??:)

I had the lower end SD-35 with Floppy and I would constantly have the "Buffer Full" message when streaming MIDI to it, even when I disabled SoftThru. Never found a way around it.

If I had to take a guess, it's either a disk format issue (fat8 vs 16, etc). track layout issue, or a disk header issue. Things PROBABLY super finicky about one, or all of those.

I've always been curious to find out exactly what Doom sounded like as it was being developed. I know what it sounded like to me as a kid wasn't even close to what it was intended to sound like, so I've always wondered if it would sound "good" to my nostalgic ears. If you ever find out what Id used in the shop, that would make quite the video.

I also have one of these. I was surprised how few games actually used MIDI. I really thought there were more.

@nickwallette6201

Ай бұрын

Back in the 90s, it was pretty much the way game soundtracks were always done. It's how they were composed, it's how the common audio engines catered to so many potential output devices (from PC speaker to AdLib to OPL to GM), and it rarely made sense to reinvent the wheel on an already simple and ubiquitous file format. Now, it wasn't always a directory full of MID files, but it was usually MIDI tucked into either custom format files, or imported into a giant data file (e.g., WAD) and loaded as resources by the game engine.

I want one!

Advice: (Take this advice with caution though...) On your older disks that don't seem to want to cooperate, try wiping them with a strong neodymium magnet, then reformat them from the unit. Yes you'll lose all info on the disk, but you just might be able to reuse the disk, as long as it isn't scratched or otherwise damaged.

What happens if you copy the complete disk contents (Or even a complete DD image) onto one of the disks that don't work?

You're going to find the best results with MIDI where the composer specifically targeted Roland SoundCanvas or Yamaha XG. Everything else is searching for diamonds in the rough. As cool as it would be to have a MIDI jukebox, recording the MIDI you like on the hardware of your choice is just so much easier than keeping the hardware connected all the time.

Do you think this will work with karaoke midi I happen to have a couple of karaoke midi I have collected for many years

These things are so weird - somewhat like Roland's dedicated MIDI sequencers of the same era such as the MC-50, but with a General MIDI sound module based on the MT-32. As for the disk drive, these used a "proper" Shugart interface rather than the almost but not entirely compatible IBM PC one.

@nickwallette6201

Ай бұрын

SC-55, not MT-32. This and the MT-32 were part of the same portfolio, but don't share the same synth engine.

I don't aqree that this looks better than the SC-55.. I love my SC-55,.. Especially since I had the b revision which also had the full mt-32 set built in. A simple keypress while turning it on puts it fully in mt-32 mode, where the only thing you MAY need to do manually is to tell it that you also want channel 16 to be a drum channel. When it comes to the disk issues.. Well.. "Couldn't replicate" means I can't make any real guess, but as you first described it it sounded PRIMARILY as if the one disc was "bad", but not so bad it CAN'T be read, just so that this device that may be more sensitive couldn't read it, whereas the other issue relates to the fact that there are actually many valid formats for a disk. Electronics with a limited processor and home-brew operating system may not be as flexible when it comes to the exact format, so what IS a valid format- but differs from what they thought as the properly formatted dos-disk back-when it was created.. May be the only versions of the format that it accepts, whereas a computer with more memory and processor power may actually do the job of looking at the meta-data on the disk and find the right things in the right place, but this may be a bit more harcoded so it may not have the code needed to f.ex. deal with a boot-sector that has fewer entries than "standard". Also; The modern USB floppy drives are.. really not the same as a real floppy drive. It doesn't write the tracks with the same "strength".. which means that they can READ things written with a bit more "ompf", but things that expect more ompf in the tracks may be working on the limit of what they can deal with to read tracks written with lower power AND at a higher speed than they should be written.. so. .They OFTEN can read it, but it takes very small fluctuations before it's outside of the specs. If you have a disk that can be read in the computer but not this device I'd suggest that you actually try to do a DD from the disk to the same disk so it writes the exact same tracks an extra time, because that will reduce the noise. I can't guarantee it works, but if a disk works after it just has been rewritten with the same data then it is about the track-integrity.. (if it doesn't work, it still may be, but less likely)

Patch93 Soundfont sounds just like this on my Audigy.

I've always wanted to try to play back a black MIDI on one of these.

Nice 👍 👍

I miss those Cambridge sound works speakers.

sorry if I'm being painfully obvious, but the SB-55 docs seem to indicate it uses DD disks, not HD. maybe you were thinking of the MT-120's 2.8" QuickDisc (QD) format earlier in the video?

When you play a midi. How do you know its playing correctly with the right instruments and speed?